Getting Feminine Symbolism Right | with Rachel Fulton Brown

[@BrainSturgeon]

Do not see enough discussion on feminine symbolism like this! Love it

[@michaelparsons3007]

The blow by hair in the wind adds some nice production value 😊

[@ferreus]

Maybe it's just how her body reacts to her holiness powers.

[@joanofarc6402]

Rachael has explained its a small fan on her desk bc older women have hot flashes.

[@riairena6469]

Witchcraft I say...

[@greggeverman5578]

@@ferreus The profile pic looks hilariously good!

[@Kolajer]

Rachel is such a come-to-life Harry Potter character. So awesome

[@alastairroberts7155]

On the subject of heroic narratives for women and feminine imagery, it is interesting to observe the way that women struggling to bear children, while struggling against wicked tyrants, corrupt rulers, or unfaithful men is such a recurring theme in Scripture. The woman, the serpent, and her seed are key themes of the biblical narrative. We see it in characters like Jochebed, Miriam, and the Hebrew midwives squaring off against Pharaoh at the beginning of the Exodus and protecting Moses. We see it in Hannah's faithfulness and spiritual perception in seeking a child, Samuel, contrasted with the dullness of Eli and the wickedness of Hophni and Phinehas. We see it in Mary and Elizabeth, contrasting with the murderous violence of Herod and the dullness of another priest, Zacharias. These narratives start the stories of the three greatest movements in Israel's history-the story of the Exodus, the story of the kingdom, and the story of the gospel-with faithful women struggling to bear children (we also see such themes in Genesis and in places such as Revelation 12, in more archetypal forms).

[@theauntless]

WHOA. You just blew my mind.

[@greggeverman5578]

Interesting.

[@siegfried.7649]

Such an interesting point. Many thanks for sharing it here!

[@hollybancroft8217]

Wow!!! That’s insightful, thank you for sharing

[@mitrayar]

Love your intro so much Fills me with bliss every time even though I'm not christian

[@shotinthedark90]

C.S. Lewis, because he was a Platonist, was very helpful to me in understanding that Masculine and Feminine are more like archetypes that are embedded in and structure reality, whereas Male and Female are the biological manifestations of those archetypes. The sun and the moon, for example, are masculine and feminine, but obviously not male and female.

[@ballyantonia]

JUNG>

[@petertuna2922]

Always great to see the notification that you uploaded another video! Stay motivated! You are growing the faith in many.

[@MiddleEarths]

So enjoyed this discussion between two of my favorites. East meets West through Mary 💓

[@joanofarc6402]

This is an excellent conversation. As a cradle catholic I understand Prods reluctance at Mother Mary more. Thank you!!

[@drewcoope]

Jordan's understanding of order and chaos isn't that the feminine *is* chaos (or that it is *only* chaos), but that it is properly represented symbolically as chaos. The optimal place to be is the place where the feminine and the masculine (order and chaos) are cooperating harmoniously. I think Jonathan clarified that but there was still a lingering impression that what he's been saying is that the feminine is chaos in some kind of simplistic, literal way.

[@iankaiser2401]

15:13 “yes” was the most profound and genius response

[@MrTTnTT]

I think I've pointed this out before, but Peterson is very clear on how masculine and feminine archetypes both come with positive and negative affect. Phenomenological negative feminine = Threatening things appear when they shouldn't. Phenomenological positive feminine = Promising things appear when they shouldn't. It ties to "nature" in the old greek sense, as roughly "that which comes of itself". Keep in mind that this order/chaos distinction isn't constant, but relative to the presented opposition. City is order compared to Wildlands. Sky is order coupled with Earth. Earth is order compared to Sea. The order you seem to speak of is the meta-order, masculine and feminine properly aligned, in what's been called the Hieros Gamos, the divine marriage/union. That's the Tao, I'm pretty sure, it's Adam before Eve was made from him, it's the androgynous Christ/Wisdom, it's the Star of David, and it's Peterson's theory that it's the *process* of exploring the unknown in a way that works. You might call it "Walking with (or in front of, or behind) God". I don't think Peterson is confusing anything here. Basically everything I say here comes from his books. He definitely gets the "on all levels" thing. It's even built into his Maps of Meaning model of how we orient ourselves in the world.

[@hempenasphalt1587]

Adam before Eve was made from him? what kind of a "marriage" is that

[@MrTTnTT]

@@hempenasphalt1587 A symbolical union of the masculine and the feminine. Once they were "separated" into two different bodies, the union had the capacity of being broken, and wasn't one unit anymore, but two. Does that clarify? It is also the "ideal" that marriage is equated to an imitation of, even in that story (if you thought the formulation of the story was strange, this is probably why), where man and woman are as one body, as one unit.

[@mitrayar]

"Walking with (or in front of, or behind) God" This quote feels great Thanks you

[@alexandraelhardt9767]

My favorite thing about this is the way Rachel makes ‘orans’ from the Platytera icon as her go-to hand gesture.

[@Kolajer]

Sweet, Rachel's back!

[@jamieyoung9392]

An excellent discussion! Although Rachel chose not to discuss her travails, she is nevertheless a real heroine. Thanks to Jonathan for producing this content :-)

[@ethanmoore8929]

So I've heard about Jonathan Pageau in talks but never watched any of his videos until this popped up. Great talk! You got another subscriber! Can't wait for more and to go back to see other past goodies!

[@anastunya]

As a Chicago drop-out, loved hearing from professor Brown. Hope she survives Zimmer regime. He destroyed free thought at Berkeley.

[@UtarEmpire]

You know I hear a lot of scary prognostications hanging around this space of thinkers and podcasters but nothing gives me that sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach faster than hearing about how badly screwed up the symbol of the feminine is in the modern West.

[@jamieyoung9392]

And kudos to Jonathan for bringing it to attention.

[@bethlemmon]

I'm Protestant and will stay that way. I believe that Jesus elevated women in how He treated them throughout Scripture. He holds them in high esteem. Mary being talked about like this does freak me out, but I will look into what you're saying.

[@pontification7891]

As an ex-protestant, and my mother being a protestant preacher, I have lived the life of feminist Protestantism, and it's constant struggle to replace the status of Mary with herself. It's a pattern I've seen many times over. Perhaps -humbleness- opens ones heart to this divine mystery, and thus to the real mystery of Christ.

[@greggeverman5578]

Stay aware, friends.

[@dubois2.024]

@@pontification7891 Ironically it is a female preacher who effectively (and unknowingly) ended my Protestant practice and started me on a journey toward the Orthodox tradition.

[@pontification7891]

@@dubois2.024 may the Lord guide you to the fullness of truth, sister!

[@SimpleAmadeus]

This conversation is beginning to reveal something I've been in conflict with but haven't quite been able to recognize. I've been having a hard time trying to settle into a "role" in society and I think a big part of that is that with the breaking down of femininity, I feel sort of forced to become both the masculine and the feminine. But I just can't. I can't be the brutish hero who stampedes forwards into battle, and also the cautious female urging him to reconsider. If I start being the feminine insecure man, then I am not the singleminded hero anymore. But if I were to only become the singleminded hero, I would charge idiotically into my death, because there actually isn't any feminine female around to slow me down and tame me. I am forced to tame myself, and that will make me a coward, not a hero. I think subconsciously I've been going all-in on the female role for now, with the expectation that I will have such a thorough preparation for what is ahead, that I can one day truly charge forwards without folly. But as I'm discovering these thoughts and writing them out right now, I think it's a foolish plan. Spending several decades being cautious and caring for myself, I would not be able to suddenly flip the switch and become the reckless hero. Mind, it's this very careful considering and reconsidering that has led me to Christ, so I haven't entirely been on the wrong track. At first glance it seems like I'm trapped. Even if I were to find a feminine woman (which has become exceedingly unlikely in this culture), she would be disgusted by the feminine role I've molded myself into. But until that moment, it is not safe for me to step into the masculine role. I suppose the only solution I can think of is to have God fill the feminine role of protecting me, while I learn to become a hero. And as I write that, I wonder if this is something in which my "Maryless" Protestantism has been holding me back during these past 3 years as a newborn Christian. I'm still scared to start praying to Mary, though. I still can't quite shake the feeling that it might be idolatry.

[@SimpleAmadeus]

Welp, a few days after I wrote that, I destabilized my entire Protestant community by choosing to convert to Orthodoxy, so I guess I have it in me to be a reckless, single-minded brute after all. Time to start my new life as a man.

[@alicjakempisty2729]

Listening to two former Protestants talk about Mary is so weird from my born-Catholic perspective, how they feel the urge to explain themselves again and again. What they both frame as very controversial statements sounds completely obvious to me, it's internalized. Weird experience

[@jamememes4114]

Always a pleasure to watch your videos, sir.

[@PaulStringini]

The issue I've always had with Mary is that I often feel like the conversation around Mary confuses the individual Mary with the things she symbolizes. She is not the first woman to act as a symbol of the ultimate woman, nor the last. All the symbols point to the church, which contains in it's womb the man child which is Christ in us. I always prioritize your uploads, great conversation.

[@rockroll6332]

Absolutly 👍 Before Christ is able to be born in you ,one has to develop the possibility of having the female side (yin/yang polarity female/male)getting ready for that task(birth) which is very difficult because most of us have their inner focus on the female aspect of lilith(outside world. / female=form) who denied gods command and made it as she pleases.The ego is a smart trickster.😣 The more people focus on the world within and create change in themselfs and face their deep rooted fears the more the "outer" world would change . ....and Satan (polarity to jesus)doing a very good job at gathering the sheep because only in times of catastrophies,poverty,anxiety,meaningless etc, etc... human beings are willing to change their ways into unknown territory thus getting out of their comfort zone/illusionary bubbles. Luke 12:49 49 “I have come to set the earth on fire. And how I long for every heart to be already ablaze with this fiery passion for God! Matthew 10:34-36 34 “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36 And a person's enemies will be those of his own household. Why i believe this... ...Microcosmos/Macrocosmos 🤗 Greetz from Germany 🇩🇪 ☺

[@PaulStringini]

Another thing to look at is the idea of the penetrating seed. In the parables of Christ, those seed parables are symbolic of our need to embody the feminine and allow God to penetrate us and form a new person in us. 1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him. Guten Tag from the US,

[@rockroll6332]

@@PaulStringini ...very well put! 🤗 I wish my brothers and sisters from this great country all the best in my prayers. Those who know and don't judge will spread the seeds of light by switching their own light to " on " ☀️ and hide it no more 🕊 .....but!..... Matt 10:16 ,,16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. 😉

[@michaelbasileos]

This is a bad take. The individual Mary is not separate from what she symbolizes. The only reason you say this is because of the Protestant aversion when it comes to Mary. If you're going to divorce Mary from what she represents, you should apply this to Christ as well, and that eventually turns to blasphemy. Mary is the ultimate woman because she is the literal woman who literally bore the literal God. No other woman has done that, and no one ever will. The Church only does this allegorically/metaphorically.

[@PaulStringini]

First of all I don't divorce Mary from what she represents, I'm saying the two things are being confused. She is an embodiment of the ultimate woman, but not the ultimate herself. To say that the two are being confused is not to say they should be divorced. When God places his seed in me, and Christ is formed in me, as the scriptures teach, that a spiritual embodiment of the female. It is not merely symbolic, I am changed from one person to another. I do not understand how you could look at that relationship and say that what happens spiritually to us is merely pointing back to Mary as the ultimate woman. If Mary is the ultimate, then everything points to her. She is the bride of Christ, the church merely symbolizes her union with her son. The church is then a shadow of Mary, and the church represents Mary and symbolizes her. But the church is the symbol of all believers (of whom also is Mary). If she is the ultimate woman, she is the meta-woman into which the church must also fit. But Mary is part of the church. Is she not? She may be the foremost member of the church, I have no problem with someone who believes that. But how can the ultimate woman be merely a part of a larger meta-woman? The meta-woman is the ultimate woman. Please don't say it has something to do with discomfort about Mary. I just think the meta-woman is the ultimate woman and that logic and the scriptures bear that out. Mary's narrative is just not significant enough to place her at the level of the ultimate woman. You conflate the ultimate with one who embodies it. (and sorting that out does not require a divorce!)

[@eduardogarciaroiz9049]

Have you ever seen the image of Saint Mary of Guadalupe and the mexican flag? The symbolism that exists in those images?

[@Kolajer]

Johnathan, you should cut excerpts from this talk and post them separately, especially that closing one. It really does need to go viral.

[@sdenheyer]

Loved this discussion - particularly impressed with Prof. Brown's reference to Taming of the Shrew. So good. It's dangerous to disagree with these two about anything symbolic - but I do think the analysis of The Incredibles is off. The point of the sequal was *not* IMO merely to highlight the supposed incompetence of fathers.

[@anastunya]

Father Josiah Trenham of Patristic Nectar was also a Presbyterian. See his YT and website for free edition of Philokalia.

[@leledeedmon9484]

More like this please 🤗

[@1lobster]

This video reminds me of a fantasy book that I'm working on! In the comments of your last video, I had a conversation with someone about male and female archetypes, and how they shape the attributes of the gods that I am designing, for my fantasy Universe, in which the book will take place.

[@tomenderlin7373]

Great discussion! This split in our world with feminism moving to occupy traditionally male spaces is trying to resolve itself and conversations like this really help in the process. I am currently reading a book on gnosticism that has been fascinating so far. It's called "Jesus and the Lost Goddess: The Secret Teachings of the Original Christians" by Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy. Looking at the underlying symbolism of religious texts and art like Jonathan and his guest are doing is such a fruitful pursuit and so fascinating. I think the divine feminine is trying to manifest in between this split we have today and scholars like these can help the process.

[@Alorand]

What do you think the symbolism of the wind blown hair is? And was it intentional or subconscious?

[@cloommeansglutin7130]

maybe we're wrong.

[@cloommeansglutin7130]

Maybe we're wrong because she thinks and says she is overlooked for teaching religion as religion. This is off course though, like literature.

[@juicerino]

awesome. thanks for having her back, what a nut.

[@SnazzyZee]

Such a joy to listen to intelectuals educated pass the Vienna Congress historic timeline. 😇

[@TwinAquarius484]

I love conversation.

[@nergethic7759]

Ooh I was waiting for this topic to come up

[@ibelieve3111]

Thanks

[@furikuri630]

I really need to talk to someone who knows this stuff because I am writing books, first one having a female protagonist. This profound symbolic language is something I want to express and I want to get it right.

[@Bill-Sama-Gates-Laden]

cant wait for you to do a piece on your ideas on order/chaos/potential

[@cuthbertsboots5733]

I am planning on getting my Ph.D. in medieval studies from University of Minnesota. I might have to get it from University of Chicago instead...

[@genesiskeglar6372]

Awesome, that’s very cool 👍 Very necessary to help counterbalance the imposed ideologies of the modern world

[@m.filmtrip]

I’ve started thinking of the different women of the Bible as types of the church in the same way that Old Testament heroes of the faith can be read as types of Christ. Because scripture says what we will be has not yet appeared but we know we will be like Him because we will see Him as He is, I think it’s a bit dangerous to elevate Mary to such a full representation of glorified femininity. For me as a woman I can certainly benefit and am benefiting by meditating on her life more, but I what about Deborah, Abigail, Jael, Rahab, Tamar, Ester, not to mention Sarah. There are so many scenarios in life and personalities and circumstances of women that can’t be fully encapsulated in the percentage of scripture referring to Mary. I also have some objection to the idea she was created more perfect to host God rather than that she was receptive and obedient to Gods voice and redeemed like any believer.

[@markkostelac9600]

I don’t know if this comment will be seen, but I was wondering if you have a more extensive explanation on Bulgakov? Maybe a video or any articles you may have… I’ve been reading a lot of him lately and find his thought quite good. The idea of Ousia-Sofia as residing in the divine darkness and manifesting in the Son and Spirit, then ipso facto through creation and our Lady, to me clarifies a lot. Where we rightly agree creation is convened in Mary, I’ve never found an explanation for why that is other than in Bulgakov or Maximilian Kolbe!

[@pedrohenriqueandreatta]

Amazing

[@MissPopuri]

I find it interesting that you say it is inappropriate to clap in church for the singers. I’ve also been told it isn’t okay to clap for the National Anthem. It seems even more curious when people do it for acts of rebellion or a great blunder with the kitchen wait stuff juggling plates.

[@mtarlo215]

I know its extra work but any plans on converting any of this content into a podcast? Id love to take in all youve talked about while i work. I listen to a lot of opinions but i find myself constantly wanted to revisit something you've discussed but watching a video just isnt possible. Keep up the good work, i love your content.

[@alastairroberts7155]

Great video! I would be interested to hear more about the way you both see the feminine imagery of women connecting with the imagery of the Spirit. In Scripture, the Spirit is the one who brings life, communion, the future, inspiration, and glory. It is by the Spirit that God makes his home with his people. The Spirit fills and forms holy space. The Spirit generates and regenerates. We are begotten by the Spirit, the Spirit groans in the pangs of birth within us. Christ was conceived by the power of the Spirit. The Spirit is closely related to the Bride (e.g. Revelation 22:17). The Spirit is the helper who fills what the Son has formed, who glorifies what he has established. And, in Genesis, the prominent categories are perhaps less those of chaos and order, but *forming* and *filling*. The original problem of creation is that it is formless and void and the creation days are the response to that: three days of forming and three days of filling. The first three days are days of forming, ordering, structuring, naming, taming, dividing, establishing boundaries, etc. The second three days are days of filling, delegating to children (sun and moon ruling in the heavens and man and woman, which correspond with them respectively, on the earth and in the sea), generating life, establishing communion, glory, and blessing, completing, etc. When the man is created, he is given primarily forming tasks of forming, naming, taming, establishing and maintaining boundaries, etc. He is the one established as priest and guardian in the garden. The woman comes as glory, life (Eve), promise, the source of communion, etc. Putting on my Protestant hat for a moment, I get a little nervous when the Spirit seems to be sidelined in the picture, as much that ought to be focused upon the Spirit gravitates to Mary.

[@mmccrownus2406]

Read St. Louis Montfort, the expert on the way to Christ thru Mary, as Christ came to man thru Mary

[@raymondfarlow6059]

Rachel writes the foreword for Milo's new book (released this week) Diabolical. Click on the 'look inside' icon on the amazon book page to read it. www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07K2KYLFK/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_bibl_vppi_i3

[@miranda4583]

With regards to the Incredibles, I think the whole point of the dad finding it hard is his character arc of discovering that there is nobility in the traditional feminine role... and that feminine women taking that role are stronger, in a different way than men, but strong nonetheless, than they are given credit for. In that sense it is a backlash against the idea that femininity is weakness. Does that make sense? I don't think it's necessarily meant to portray men as incapable in general. But it does bother me that his wife is portrayed at being so perfect at both the masculine and the feminine role. I guess what I'm trying to say is that the movie seems to me to be saying that the feminine role is the more challenging role -- it is glorifying the feminine above the masculine in that sense, not erasing it.

[@JonahInWales]

A brilliant talk which I thoroughly enjoyed. Although I'm not too sure why she is so defensive over Milo, his career was mostly ruined by his odd and immoral statements about paedophilia...which in light of such comments, his career deserved to be damaged. Other than that she is a great guest and makes a lot of sense.

[@barbaraeng9923]

Excellent. I am looking forward to your video on how order and chaos become the city.

[@C5Dynamite]

this is a good podcast. i am always wondering what is the feminine aspect in our culture, and JBP really lacks material on this topic.

[@JessPurviance]

This video has epic hair.

[@greggeverman5578]

White hair can be cool too.

[@ballyantonia]

Rudolph Steiner, WALDORF SCHOOLS, preserves, embodies Christian principles,honoring masculine, feminine.

[@raywest7222]

Mary is also the earth itself. Because the earth is the place the held God. So its kinda fitting to call the earth mother

[@NickRedmark]

I'm a bit worried about what one could call the tyranny of the symbolic over the actual. There are a number of ways one can take symbols too far and impose certaim structures on reality in a tyrannical way. Examples: 1) applying light/darkness symbolism to human skin color 2) applying hero myths to animal cruelty like the spanish corrida 3) applying feminine/masculine symbolism to gender roles. I think in this discussion the difference between man/woman and feminine/masculine aren't differentiated clearly enough. In current times this is important. So if empowering women by disparaging the feminine is wrong it is equally wrong to not clarify that ot isn't necessarily the woman who should play the feminine role.

[@papercut7141]

I have my doubts that someone who hasn't yet been able to differentiate male/female from masculine/feminine is intellectually mature enough to follow this conversation in the first place, let alone be swayed to tyranny through it

[@Loenthall88]

Maybe I need to get out more, but I have no clue who Milo is. Does that make me a bad person?

[@Kolajer]

The fencing bear and the maiden fair all in one.

[@wildrover1076]

Wasn't one of the most important points of Jesu's birth story that Mary was a simple, still noble commoner? So that greatness can come from everyone? I'm certainly no Bible expert, but when did Mary become a super bad ass whose wisdom could even contain god/Jesus?

[@cbgardner123]

In Church tradition she wasn't just anyone. She was born to barren parents and given to God as an offering when young. She lived in the temple and served there preparing for what was to come.

[@wildrover1076]

@@cbgardner123 Thanks for the answer, but doesn't that mean that she was still a minor character in the Bible? The question I was getting at was who came up with all theses additional ideas outside of the Bible? Why did some priests in the middle ages beliefe it was sound to just tack stuff onto their religion of the book? In theory a religion should be stable in its core, because it's suposed to be nothing less than the word of God. The truth is that people have changed Christianity over time, just think about Clavinism vs Catholicism. So even in religion there is no absolute truth.

[@cbgardner123]

@@wildrover1076 Well to be honest I think that's a basic misunderstanding of the Bible and the Church. The Bible didn't drop from the sky complete. It was a long process. It's letters, poems, history books, and stories all written by different people over vast amounts of time and in different places. But these disparate things all mysteriously fit together and reference each other. And the depth of church tradition takes time to develop. What we see in the middle ages isn't the invention of new things, it's the adding of understanding to what was already known. It's like when you have a gut feeling but it takes time to articulate it fully in a comprehensive manner that fully explains its depth. There was no new revelation. All was revealed by Christ and his life. But it took time to fully explain, articulate, and apply what truly was meant by what happened and fully explore the mystery of God becoming man. Hope that makes sense.

[@wildrover1076]

@@cbgardner123 Ha, I like this discussion, but I was kind of expecting this answer. The Church isn't a timeless revelation by god. Culture has a heavy influence on it, but that was my point. The first Christians were a tight, pacifist commune. The romans set up a bureaucracy and waged war. Catholics help the poor, while Calvinists say the rich are blessed by the lord. If your argument is a gut feeling had to develope or that god is speaking in different forms to different people, I think you're phoning it in. The cultural differences are too large for that.

[@cbgardner123]

@@wildrover1076 I think while you make some fair points, the fact that cultures had the effect of stressing certain aspects of the faith doesn't invalidate those aspects. All the facets you mentioned are in the Bible. God waged war, setup hierarchies, and helps the poor while blessing the rich. How the human experience continues to deepen our understanding of the revelation of Christ is the organic evolution God setup through the guidance of the Church and the Holy Spirit. What do you see as the "right" or "pure" Christianity? How can we know what is true and what isn't?

[@grailcountry]

27:24 Have you actually read Bulgakhov? That's a thin caricature sir.

[@the300XM8]

I don't think he had a bad intention. Caricature is what can happen when you over-simplify things

[@antropatico]

not enough ads

[@nonenone5413]

48:00 I was with her, until she went off on a weird tangent about men throwing their infants and going "weee!" and women telling men "that's a no-no, sweetie...no throwing my infants, teehee" Who TF ARE these people, acting like this?? I have heard this before. It's f'ing weird shyt. I heard it almost verbatim when I was 16 from a man named Dr. Goates (yes, that was really his name) whose whole life revolved around his hobby of drugging vulnerable teen virgin girls with non-indicated mind altering RX drug overdoses off label. He was a character straight out of Rosemary's Baby but it was real life. His creep factor was off the charts. Not to be superficial, but you can tell a lot about a person from the way they take care of themselves and present themselves to the world. Why does her hair look like she hasn't washed it in a year? Why does she have such deep dark circles under her eyes? Why does she look so dour?

[@ruizhang2452]

Rachel makes "Mary and God were just like us", I am not sure this is how we should think. We look up to the ideal to check out our own imperfections, can't be the other way round, no?

[@vivianbi7781]

Was there a fan in front of the woman?

[@rhb30001]

Christ already knew she would ask Him of the wine at the marriage.. He allows her to ask of the obvious since the marriage is a reflection of the marriage of the bride and groom in heaven

[@fraukatze3856]

Fencing Bear! I’ve read your blog, great to see you in this vid. I an an ex-Protestant too, now Orthodox. I don’t find Mary overdone in the Orthodox tradition. Her icon is on the left side of the iconostasis, so she’s a venerated figure. Of course there’s lots of other icons too. She’s Theotokos (God bearer). I think she plays a somewhat different role for the Roman Catholics but I don’t know much about it. I can’t think of an Orthodox church with the “our lady” in the name. Correct me if I’m wrong.

[@FencingBearatPrayer]

Frau Katze Nice to meet you! I mainly know Mary as she is described in medieval Christianity, and there she is much more like the Orthodox image than, for example, she appears in the nineteenth and twentieth century apparitions. Perhaps that is the difference?

[@fraukatze3856]

Fencing Bear at Prayer Yes, they were originally of the same tradition. But at some point after 1054 they gradually drifted in slightly different directions. It’s not a real big deal to me. I found this article in, of all places, The United Church of Canada monthly review, saying how happy the author with how well her daughter is doing at Catholic school! www.ucobserver.org/faith/2018/09/catholic_school_not_catholic/

[@Blaine748]

Wow great discussion. Really corrected what Jordan gets wrong about this.

[@d0wnstars]

I know youtube channels about tarot, presented by a man, were they review new decks and cheer for the fact that the Emperor and empress are both woman. Where the lovers usually are shown as Adam and Eve by the tree are now often displayed as 2 woman or sometimes as 2 man. Who would have known that this would lead me to finding such beauty in Mary. The strangest thing i have witness was when i walked by a karate school were the kids came out after training. I have always seen that there are more Muslim boys than Dutch boys. This was the first time i saw more Muslim girls than boys. The hardest thing to wrap my head around is that it seems that man has to say sorry all the time but the woman would not admit her blames by saying sorry. Even worse is that many time the apologize gets ignored by the women. I know 5 relationships that have ended in 2019 including my own, in all 5 cases the woman dumped the man while all those man where fighting for attention with a mobile phone. My parent divorced before i was born and i have had 9 different step vaders in my life. None of them where good enough. The reason that there was always a new man the next day was according to my mother that she wanted me to have a father providing food and shelter. I have seen very proud wealthy man left humiliated and broken in any way possible. It was so nice to hear Rachel actually admitting the things i go trough as i see and feel it because these feelings has always been ignored as if it was me who was imagining things that where not real. Thank you both, it means a lot to me. Maybe i can learn to love the word mother again.

[@riairena6469]

What's with the flowing hair.

[@greggeverman5578]

Apparently she gets hot flashes.

[@livin2themusick]

😚

[@riairena6469]

But that said, what about being born again, and isn't there likely a problem with the Mary imagery of many getting stuck at Mary. This Cana story is used so much, but I just don't see Mary being a big part of the story other than symbolism once Christ is discipling people he doesn't bring Mary along, doesn't ask Abraham or Moses for help to pray for him, and neither do the disciples in the book of Acts or anywhere. Yes the symbolism is there but you are to take the symbolism and look to Christ. The bible says pray our Father who is in heaven, not ask Moses or the any sleeping saints for help, there are no examples of this anywhere, Yes I can see to mention explain that symbolism, as it applies tell the story but too many people focus on Mary. The Holy Spirit intercedes for us. Yes, we are scared the deception is alluring....Satan's deceptions can be... Does that mean I agree with every Protestant church, no. My aim should be to emmulate Christ,. However the body of Christ has weeds, I have weeds. Yes we all have to be careful of idols, but does that mean I should ignore a more obvious one I don't think so. But these videos are interesting.

[@macmudgee]

The Song if Solomon is the relationship between Christ and His bride the church. The church is the female part of God, the church is one with Christ, in Luke 11: 27,28 when the woman called out in the crowd blessed is she who bore you and fed you and Jesus replies, more blessed is the person who believes and keeps the commandments. It would be an abomination to be wed to your mother, Mary is the Queen mother, the Church is the Queen of Heaven. The Holy Spirit, is our helper and leads us into all truth

[@ecstaticallyeverafterwithc5904]

This is the only thing that makes any sense.

[@amillion4782]

This may be a semantic issue but I don’t agree/like the notion that she is wisdom. Instead it acts through her. She is a vessel. It’s unconscious.

[@Fungkatron]

I'm interested in why many Christian speakers are heavily focused on many left wing issues, but they never talk about the, generally right wing, child abusers in churches (ANOTHER case a couple of weeks ago). She said herself she's despised by films messing around with gender roles. They both agree that abortion is mothers murdering their children. So why doesn't anyone ever have the love of God to focus on the masculine/feminine issues within peadphiles in churches? It would help Christianity a lot. The biggest thing that turns people away from Christ is Christians. Let's get angry at women going through with abortions but not men sexually abusing children....what? The cognitive dissonance baffles me. Surely we have a call to talk about this?

[@setharchaelios3484]

The whole point of having strong female protagonists is to show that women don't have to "stay in their place." Why should writers and artists restrain themselves by only having maternal female characters?Just because a female character is not portrayed as traditionally feminine, that does not mean that she is trying to humiliate the man.

[@ladybear6247]

Seth Archaelios I think the problem lies more in the fact that the maternal and the feminine has been so demonized lately, and made to seem “inferior” in comparison to expressing masculine characteristics. If there was a healthy mix in pop culture of more adventurous “masculine” like women, along with the beauty of the traditional feminine role that gives the man the framework to be the hero (which I believe would resonate on a much deeper level with both men and women) then there wouldn’t be a problem. Heck, even if the story just focused on both the man and woman being equally masculine and competent that wouldn’t be as damaging as the woman usurping the man in his role and the man becoming useless. I agree with Rachel that that is disgusting. And this had literally been the pattern in almost every recent movie portraying “strong female characters”. A perfect example of someone who did it right on so many levels is J.R.R Tolkien. You have Galadriel and Arwen, who represent the incredibly vital private sphere and provide the frame for the men to fight and succeed in their battle, and you also have Eowyn who literally dresses as a man, and goes and lands the final blow to the witch-king. It’s so brilliant because Aragorn points out that Eowyns duty was with her people; she had to shoulder the responsibility of ruling Rohan in Théoden's stead when the war-host of Rohan went to war, a duty he deemed no less valiant. But she goes out anyway and “slays the dragon”. However it nearly kills her and her outlook on life changes “Then the heart of Éowyn changed, or else at last she understood it. ... I will be a shieldmaiden no longer, nor vie with the great Riders, nor take joy only in the songs of slaying. I will be a healer, and love all things that grow and are not barren." I interpret this to symbolize that women are more than capable of slaying the dragon just like men (aka compete with them in the world and workplace) but our hearts aren’t truly satisfied until we are embodying our true hero’s journey which is to nourish, grow, cherish and bring fruitfulness out of the barren. Aka provide that vital private sphere so that society can flourish. As a women I just find that so true on so many levels. And it’s a shame that it is no longer being communicated in pop culture.

[@Alorand]

Sadly modern portrayals of the feminine create a false dilemma when they set those two aspects of femininity against each other. It should never be a choice between "Only maternal female characters" or "strong female protagonists" but the lived out expression of both potentials and more. Are women empowered by being forced to choose some compromise between having a family or a career, or juggling both? If society looks down on and abandon the classical female archetypes because they are too constricting what we get is the redefinition of women as "men, but better" And if that is the case, then you have men who choose to become women to beat women at being superior to men.

[@jamieyoung9392]

Why do you contrast "strong female" with "maternal female"? Are they mutually exclusive? Is the woman portrayed in the Pieta a strong female?

[@EvolianTiger]

Is she really attempting to compare Milo to Jesus? Just no.

[@RSanchez111]

Rachel criticizes movies for replacing males with females in male roles, but then right after starts talking about "feminine order". Rachel is focusing too much on gender, just like the people she's criticizing.

[@1lobster]

Marry is the mother of Jesus, not God, we don't know the name of God's mother. Unless you believe in a shamrock trinity.

[@JonathanPageau]

You need to learn your history, my friend. We have a whole ecumenical council which settled that question, and you are confessing that you have given into the Nestorian heresy.

[@1lobster]

Jonathan Pageau, are you the one who liked my comment? Is the reply you left a joke? Did you understand my "shamrock trinity" reference?

[@rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr1]

Do you mean, "Mary is the mother of Jesus, not of the Trinity (or the Father)" or "Mary is the mother of Jesus the man, but not Jesus the God"? Big difference.

[@PaulStringini]

When you say that Jesus was the mother of Jesus and "not God" it sounds like you are denying the Trinity which I do not think you meant to do. It does not mean that Mary created God anymore than my mother created me. She carried the seed of God within her and gave birth to God, didn't she? So she was his mother. In the ultimate sense, God is without father or mother, the symbols embody greater truths. When the seed of God is implanted in you, what will be born of that?

[@echinaceapurpurea1234]

@@PaulStringini He did say "unless you believe in a shamrock trinity". So I think he did mean to do so.