Let's Chat About World of Darkness | Game Commentary | Two D Ten

[@ace61621]

Nate, I fell in love with WoD after listening your reviews on 25YVTM. I recently finished running my first V20 Chronicle even. V5 has been nothing but disappointing to me since it's release. I could coexist and simply play my v20. But after what they did to the Malkavians, necromatic clans and Lasombra, I just can't deal with it anymore. It's frustrating to see a world you love so much turn to shit. I've only been a fan for a few years, I can't imagine watching this happen being a fan from the 90s

[@davidfriend6462]

I started back in '96 when i found a promotional copy of V1 Alpha in the back of an ancient Wizards of the Coast magazine. This was back when the Brujah still had fortitude instead of presence! What madness was that!? Anyway, it isn't all bad. I try remember that having bad art is still better than no art at all, but what Paradox is pumping out is nothing short of cynical. I am still glad for Winter's Teeth and the new Chicago book, but the rest of V5 ought to be relegated to the dust bin.

[@Gangrel442003]

You have no fucking idea...

[@Lehnert]

The next announced book for V5 is Second Inquisition, as far as I know it's written by Renegade Studio (good job with doing everything in-house) and it's to be released in March (was pushed recently, Amazon still states the release date for the 25th of Feb... for today, actually). And once again it's $45 for 140 pages of something that looks like a monster manual. From the official description: "An antagonists’ guide to the rising Second Inquisition, this book contains: - Opponents of your Kindred, and their special forces and equipment - Information on the fires rising against the world’s vampires, stoked by the Society of St. Leopold and the American FIRSTLIGHT black program - New tools to expand your chronicles, including eldritch Artifacts, dozens of dangerous antagonists, and the tactics your coterie can use to fight back" It looks slightly better than the Sabbat book, mostly because it (hopefully) doesn't rewrite the faction that's been in the game for 20 years. The most important thing is, what are they going to do next? Is V5 done? Are we going to focus on H5 and W5 now? Are we going to get V6? Will they backtrack again and give us official rules to play older vampires? Will we get some non-Hecata bloodlines back? I think that this next announcement is a critical point for many VtM players and enjoyers out there, or at least for me. Will it be "ok, I'm excited, please tell me more" or "fuck off, I'm done".

[@sudlerdaemon2925]

I've been a fan of old World of Darkness content since 2017, a year before V5 was released in full, my first experience with the system and setting being me reading through the V20 Core Rulebook and getting immersed into this amazing world full of history that presaged the modern nights, though some elements were bumpy and obviously the products of writers of decades prior with radically different sensibilities, it was quite easy to ignore those 'edgy for the sake of it' parts and excise them from the overall body of lore or have them be irrelevant to the story you're telling anyway. As of writing this, I have been on this planet for 20 years, I have not had the time nor sapience to idolise Revised or any prior editions when they first came out nor when being packed to the brim with supplement books, my sensibilities are hardly clouded by nostalgia for system editions I've barely experienced in any way other than simply glancing at the cover art for some of the older supplements. One of the things I adored about Vampire is that it maintained this sense of internal consistency with its metaphysics and social systems, all vampires shared certain traits and needs, clans had unique weaknesses and abilities inherent to their mere existence, things didn't feel like they were happening because writers wanted to shake things up, they felt like rational decisions made in response to how things were going in the nightlife of the world, the Anarchs, Camarilla and Sabbat maintained consistent political structures that lended them some certain sense of realism. Then V5 came along and kinda just upturned everything to say that it did, vampires all metaphysically went from definitively having to use blood points to fuel some discipline powers to rolling to see if they get hungrier (and possibly just never getting hungry if they rolled well enough), vampires having to KILL to fully sate their thirst whereas this was never a requirement before, vampiric disciplines and their uniqueness being scrunched into generic ones and their 'amalgams' that functionally made getting access to things like Heart of Darkness easier for Gangrel than Setites and the Ravnos' Chimestry as an easy in-clan thing for the Setites, the Tremere and other sorcerous vampires losing functionally a majority of their previously held utility, the Sabbat went from being an organised force with religiously-oriented leadership into an 'I don't know, just throw them in there and let the ST figure it out themselves' blatant enemy. The above list goes on and on, from the melding of Obtenebration and Necromancy (which never interacted with the same bits of the Umbra, might I add!), to the complete removal of Elders as powerhouses and Elder discipline powers, the 'emotional resonance' of blood you drink from functionally enhancing or improving your character whereas blood once was just blood (barring drinking from werewolves and the like), blood potency as a concept being imported over from Requiem when only Generation was the relevant calculation point for power potential before, clan compulsions just existing when they were never a thing before. As stated in the video, V5 is a reboot that calls itself a continuation, a true continuation wouldn't bungle the consistency of a settings rules and metaphysics by insisting that 'this is how things have always worked' when things obviously worked differently before it came along. 'Less is more' is a common saying, but it does not really apply to Vampire the Masquerade, trying to squeeze all these systems together to streamline them doesn't really work when the wide variety of options from before allowed for significantly more unique characters, interesting gameplay and intriguing narratives to be told in a much wider variety of situations, scopes and importance. More is more, I would actually like to have those unique character options and non-generic clans/bloodlines, sects with actual written nuance and a book that respects my intelligence and willingness to learn of lore which came before my time. As V5 gets more material and more writers come on board, it becomes increasingly clearer that a majority of folks who are on the team, including Justin Achilli, aren't actually interested in truly writing for Vampire the Masquerade insomuch as they are interested in seeing their own version of Vampire the Masquerade get to print, but in their new VtM, a lot of what made the setting into what it is just.. doesn't matter anymore, where the 'old' aspects that worked well are cast aside and replaced by new things that functionally destroy the internal consistency of any metaplot narrative just for the sake of saying that it is something new.

[@smuggrog9821]

Yep, I was born when Revised was released and was only introduced to Vampire the Masquerade in 2017 when I played Bloodlines and eventually brought V20 and V5 in 2019. So no nostalgia googles here but V5 setting is such a huge departure from older editions that it might as well be a soft reboot. Which is fine if Paradox just admitted that this is supposed to be a clean slate but they still claim that V5 is supposed to be continuation of Revised, but the disregard for lore and retcons paints a different story. Which is my main problem with V5, it seems like the game doesn't know if it wants to be Masquerade or Requiem, V5 wants to downplay the lore and metaplot of the setting but we already have a vampire game that does that and its called Requiem, Masquerade fans were drawn in and invested in that setting because of the lore and metaplot, so disregarding the very thing that separated the two game lines, seems like a weird move to me even as a newer fan to this setting.

[@SgtReuster]

Absolutely perfect video... well done sir

[@bobsalami9996]

That Wax Trax shirt

[@martinarnold5239]

we'll always have 20th anniversary editions

[@idrinkthereforeiam7427]

Excellent and on point. Thank you for verbalizing many peoples disdain in your eloquent way. Unfortunately, the game line itself has became a steaming pile of feculence while simultaneously reeking of quick cash grabs. A rinse wash repeat mentality has attached itself to the current hive mind. Unfortunately, with the irrationality of the story, the nerfing of rules, that hive mind is in serious need of a Ritalin prescription. To finalize this, thank you for being a rational voice, in fact based logic. You are the voice of many.

[@clairestark9024]

What blows my mind is how many people defend it uncritically. Even if you like it its far from perfect.

[@TwoDTen]

Feculence. Nice.

[@Violenceinmind40]

What threw me off was the sycophantic responses from some V5 fans who casually tossed ad homs because I wanted a playable Sabbat. I like V5, but because I didn't like the direction they took the Sabbat I was a smooth brained nihilistic edgelord who clearly didn't understand the pathos derived from being a V5 vampire. This gate-keeping alienated me from the V5 community, one that up until that point I enjoyed participating in.

[@clairestark9024]

As a carmarilla primary I've yet to hear a defence to not being able to play Sabbat that isn't either fallacious, toxic, delusional or a mix of all three. V5 fans are so toxic they practically glow.

[@Nih1list]

Very well articulated. I think the Chicago By Night book is an excellent value and would add a lot to a V20 style game. Aside from that, V5 releases have been very underwhelming. If I’m paying $45-$50 for a game book, it should actually be a game book. Also, Outstar is absolutely insufferable.

[@clairestark9024]

She's quite affable and has a lot of enthusiasm but my god....those takes.

[@ethanbest9110]

I was born in 1994 and didn't discover WoD until the summer between my senior year of high school and my first year of college as part of an attempt to prepare myself for making friends with gamers in a new place. I didn't look into it much and was reintroduced through WtA my second year of college by some friends and for the two sessions I got to play it was the most fun I had had with ttrpgs up to that point. When V5 came out I was really excited and was in a group with another guy that really enjoyed the setting after discovering, but I was almost out of school with my final BFA show on the horizon and he had a D&D game to finish. It's only recently that I have had the chance to try to run it. It's hard with no experience actually playing, but that's ok. However, what I am struggling with is that while I was initially drawn in by this transition to a metaplot focused on a slow march into the apocalypse (the version of the apocalypse I have grown up with), between the lack of cohesive writing and the other questionable practices I am kind of inclined to ignore all of this and either go Dark Ages or go back to the 90's and early-00's because things were more cohesive, more interesting and less condescending then while also not having to deal with the increasingly difficult cognitive dissonance that most people's WoD now is preferable to our real world (I know of very few people including current geopolitical developments and medical studies into their games).

[@DoctorEviloply]

The way I've always ran my WoD games is to put a hard lock on the setting. The world ends with Gehenna and other line equivalents. VtM's atmosphere was very of it's time. That mid 90's to early 2000's Goth and MTV time. When you start putting modern elements in, it starts to tarnish the setting in my opinion. So I just keep it in that time. Or earlier. Saves a lot of headaches and keeps the players from virtue signalling too much.

[@Thugctc]

This video is amazing and perfectly said!

[@BrooklynFirstTeam]

100% spot on, Nate. As a 45 year old gamer who grew up with the WoD, the new material is terrible. I am, however, finding some decent stuff on the community content site. Long time fan of your podcast. Keep up the great work.

[@Houte]

Thank you for another amazing video! I’ve only been playing almost 4 years now. I chewed through the lore like candy. (Yes all of it. I downloaded pdfs of every WW book. Yes, even Blood-dimmed tides and Ebony kingdom. And let us not forget all of those damn thaumaturgy books. I got into VtM for free. I then started buying physical books out of love) It’s honestly addicting. When V5 dropped I was optimistic as I loved the ‘You are what you eat’ chapter, but the game play was lack luster. We went back to V20 and simply kept the ‘you are what you eat’ chapter. I never saw the Camerilla as the ‘good’ vampires. They are evil just in a different way. I personally see the Camarilla as evil to their own kind for keeping the truth from the younger generation. ‘The antediluvians aren’t real’, ‘Gehenna is Sabbat propaganda’, etc. But they try to maintain their humanity. Sabbat are the opposite. They are speakers of the truth and forfeit their humanity. It’s the question of ‘which monster would you like to play?’ For me anyway. I know my interpretation isn’t the only one. I’ve only played 3 campaigns because I’m lucky enough to have a consistent group and the campaigns usually go a little over a year. 2 Sabbat and 1 Cami. Even though I’m not a VtM veteran I can clearly see the decline in material. I don’t understand what people say about ‘gatekeeping’. It’s 2022. You can find all of the lore online. I learned most of it in under two years, and that was at my leisure. Of course I can’t recall it all, I have to look it up when I can’t remember, but I know where to find any lore question I may have. This is already too long, but my take is: They are rebooting VtM to be politically correct. It is a cash grab. Vampires are a cyclical thing that never goes out of style permanently, it has a quick comeback. V5 is not fun and I don’t enjoy being a sad vamp all the time. I want to be a cut throat political player in the Cami, and a horrible abomination in the Sabbat. I never want to be a good guy. That’s what I play d&d for.

[@DoctorEviloply]

You need to stop thinking of Vampires in VTM as Good and Evil. Over time they forget their humanity and human centres of morality do not apply to them. That's where the often misunderstood and abused by players Paths come into it. The Path of Humanity only takes you so far in vampire society. Eventually you figure out other ways and more vampiric centered morality to fight The Beast. It's not about being "Evil." it's about living in a dark, hostile and supernaturally depressing world where "winning" is just not dying to the many horrors lurking around every corner. Some of which wear human faces.

[@Inquisitor_Lelouch]

This video perfectly summarizes current WoD. Thank you for this review!

[@uselessfamiliar]

I'm sorry, but I only got in to VtM was because of the lore. Back in the early 2000s I read the clan novels before I even knew there was a game. I loved the novels or lore first before the game. So, yeah lore is very important to me.

[@themichaelnero]

Honestly, I think it's time to go back to my Revised/V20 books.

[@ButTheCatCameBack]

I started WoD in 1992 and played regularly all the way until around 2004 when my child was born and kept involved in the scene even after, moving on to Chronicles of Darkness when it was released. Out of curiosity I checked out the WoD 5e discord to see what people were saying about 5e as I didn't have much interest in the setting but you don't invest in something that long and not check it out. What I found was a server full of abusive, sycophantic people who sneer at fans of the earlier editions(including one moderator straight out calling all old Werewolf the Apocalypse fans fascists and fascist sympathizers) and who repeatedly browbeat such people and trash talk CofD etc. Suffice to say that was it for me checking that out.

[@ButTheCatCameBack]

Oh and I forgot, Paradox is slowly but surely strangling out CofD.

[@septymesk7721]

I wish I could give this video 9 more likes. I completely agree with almost every point made (I do still like some of the rules from V5, and have adopted them to be used in my games). I have to admit, my curiosity is piqued; what developer insulted the old material, old writers and old players by talking shit about "green books"; and which one told people to f**k off and go play earlier editions? I have a sneaking suspicion, but don't want to jump to conclusions

[@kamui003]

I'm sort of getting the impression that going forward, WoD 5th edition is going to be sort of a hybrid of both Wod and chronicles of darkness. The new edition of Hunter sounds kind of like an amalgamation of both hunter the reckoning and hunter the vigil. Which is kind of odd considering the new edition of hunter the vigil is coming out.....eventually. Also, Earthblood is quite possibly the best looking PS2 game I've ever seen

[@Comicsluvr]

Well said on all points.

[@sebastianfreeman7445]

Solid take. Yeah, it is a rant, but that is what I wanted to hear: someone's thorough opinion. Overall, I am with you regarding V5 and the modern incarnation of WoD publishing/merchandizing. I do want to bring up one point. Community Content. I do not have any direct experience with Paradox/Renegade, and I have no idea what their opinions are regarding Community Content (aside from them liking the idea enough to open up their IP for it). Many other game companies see the boon of Community Content through the lens of niche demand. Lots/most players get the core rulebook of whatever game. Some want a book about Topic A. Some want Topic B. Others want Topic C. Publishing fully developed books for different smaller segments of the playerbase does not make much sense when it is known many players will not care enough about a given topic...forced to wait longer for a book fitting into THEIR niche. However, when Niche A, B, and C all have content they can obtain and use, they turn around and continue to buy more of the "core" (traditionally published) books. The publisher aims to write for what everyone will use as the foundation, while indie creators appreciate success even at the smallest niche level. Publishers and the developers of their books have absolutely told their writers things like, "We don't have room for that in the planned pagecount...but that would be an incredible idea as Community Content supporting this traditionally-published book." Larger varieties of niche products attract more niche players. More niche players also buy core rulebooks. I have no idea what conversations took place between the publisher/IP-holder and the mentioned V5 Sabbat authors, but I would be EXCEEDINGLY surprised if folks at Paradox/Renegade did not know about the Player-oriented Sabbat Community Content book before it was released.

[@Ratenef]

WoD is not the only game system where 20+ years of 'canon' / lore is being shuffled aside. Star Wars has taken any novel, short story or comic written before the last trilogy and made them 'legends'. DnD has stated that the lore of the past is 'problematic' and thus is being set aside (e.g. Drow are now not what Drow were original designed to be). Both companies express that the lore is a gatekeeper to the new fans. Comics has started doing the same thing with series being ended and restarted so that the numbering stays low and therefore people are not daunted by a comic that has issue numbers in the 3 digits. To me this is a disingenuous action based upon the idea that people are stupid and lazy. It is only a gatekeeper for those people who feel the need to be completists or have to understand 'all of it'. Instead of washing away the past lore, we should be adapting to being able to provide either prologues that provide the necessary lore in precis style or small inexpensive lore books that could be easily obtained and read to get that lore you need. (think clan books but summaries and no rules, just great fluff). As for the Sabbat, it does seem very odd that so immediately after the Sabbat book one of the authors compiled a Sabbat 'players guide'. If WoD had any idea that he was doing this along side, which he must have been doing, then they missed a great opportunity to make that the second part of the official Sabbat release. However, it seems as if the WoD releases for the sects have all been nearly fluff with little crunch. The Onyx Path books seem to have the far greater amount of crunch and have published not only more books for V5 but also far more page count. I was disappointed to hear that after Forbidden Religions Onyx Path has no further agreements with Paradox/WoD for any WoD materials (which suggests they are not creating any material for Hunter nor Werewolf V5 versions).

[@adamrandaustin]

Amazing 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼 you sound exactly like me

[@shadowchisau]

Very well said. 110% agree with all points. The direction they are taking with V5 seems to be purposefully alienating the old fan base and I really don't know why? They are the ones who build the brand in the first place. WoD wouldn't be where it is without them. Wizards Of The Coast was able to create 5E for old and new players alike, giving players tools to play the way they want. Is it so bad to give your customers what they want? It seems so strange that as a fan you have to go out of your way to "demand" a product be up to a certain standard. It has completely put be off purchasing any more V5 products unless they make appropriate changes. I don't know if new V5 players realize how frustrating this is for older players (for myself VtM is my "go to"/favourite ttrpg). V5 from my perspectives is a incomplete game, and still years after the release it isn't up to standard. The whole roll our process of different books, products seems terrible and they're now scrabbling to provide something of value as we can see with the Players Guide (which is actually a consolidation of materials). The team and process seems to have very strange priorities, Liencing the IP looks like the main focus, not producing quality game, valuable or thought through products. You can tell they don't seem to care or prioritize what is important, just look at the recent Hunter The Reckoning cover controversy where they almost released a book with what looked like a shitty 90's alternative rock band cover. It took community backlash for them to make the adjustment. It's not like Hunter is a new IP, it's been around for almost 20 years. Failing to get the basics right is just embarrassing.

[@justinsellers9402]

100%. I'd like to "Highlander 2" Vampire 5th Edition, and just ignore it and move on. I started playing in 91, off and on, and love the game, outside of the clan structure. By that, I mean, the ugly can, the crazy clan, the artist clan, the woodsie clan, etc. I loved V20, and for my tastes, it is the best version for what I want. Paradox has a long history in the computer gaming world of releasing fantastic games, and then releasing a boatload of half-assed expansions that change the game in a negative fashion, with positive aspects gated behind buying the expansion. They have 2-3 games that I really do like and have hundreds or thousands of hours played, but I was not excited to hear that they had bought White Wolf.

[@treyjustice2117]

I enjoyed the video and commentary. Strange to find someone almost as old as me with the same thoughts on the current state of Vampire, whatever edition/whatever it may be! I continue to buy the new content and from the beginning saw it as something different. I do enjoy the new content but when gaming, I will stick to 2nd edition thanks. Though I do enjoy VtR (especially the variant of VtR: Rome) as well. Glad to see my thoughts almost mirrored and on KZbin! We gamers of the original VtM are almost like the relics of the past too!

[@clairestark9024]

In my opinion v5 starts to run into trouble with the anarch book, the core book effectively pushes the setting back to the anarch vs carmarilla 91, this is a bold move but has potential. Anarch needed to consolidate the change with a ball park smash hit consolidating the new setting and laying groundwork pushing forward....... What we got was a vampire fashion tip chapter and the setite clan flaw. Establishing that while v5 has reset the setting it doesn't actually have any ideas on what to do with it in replacement of 25 odd years of development going forward. If anarch puts the game in trouble Sabbat buries it as it becomes clear they not only dont have any ideas going forward but are going to obstruct attempts to resume revised setting. I'm interested in how the loss of fan goodwill is going to affect w5 especially as its growing increasingly clear their 'big' plan is to remove a lot of stuff and make it more like forsaken. The fact we got a battle royal game before Sabbat or eldar rules is genuine black mark on the company.

[@TobiasBukkehave]

Amazing Content.

[@quinnjones1655]

Miss your voice Nate. Start another podcast with a quality co-host! You definitely brought something.

[@ravenshadowz2343]

Will you be doing a review of , The Black Hand: Playing the Sabbat in the future?

[@TwoDTen]

If you mean the Storytellers Vault title, no I won’t be. I’m not currently doing STV reviews, and I have no plans to do so in the future.

[@Iwuznothere]

Create a book that feels more like a reaction to stamp out players who for decades have tried to run and play a Sect, despite how much the original and new publishers seem to be against the idea that a player should want to be that Sect - and will seemingly write with this rejection in mind in said overpriced and under-cooked product? And also pull that attitude out for certain clans and Bloodlines like how canon V5 Salubri have such a harsh set of rules against them you'd think their inclusion was more of a punishment? Oh, and lets not forget how a lot of their video game content is either very decent to extremely cheap Visual Novels, chasing trends without a care in the world how that Dodecahedron shaped media fits in a triangle setting hole as long as it makes cheap money for the IP owner, a very good Wraith game that is dependent on players having a good VR set-up to experience and in Bloodlines 2's case - a never ending development clusterfuck that makes Duke Nukem Forever's ride on the vaporwear shuffle feel less embarrassing. Paradox Interactive just see The World of Darkness as a Goth Tax that they can set at whatever price they feel like and expect dorks to just buy and never critique. Just consume product at write up, and also please help us publish this content on top of these pricings this through multiple kickstarter campaigns which will limit how much we actually write about said section of IP. The Black Toothbrush with the Sword of Caine motif costs $40 because fuck you.

[@kamui003]

It's really odd to me that Paradox doesn't have anyone going through the back catalogue of content to come up with ideas for new video games. I realize they don't do it because they want all upcoming games to push 5th edition but they're sitting on a goldmine of content. If nothing else, it would probably get them higher quality games. I realize this might sound like a reach but maybe alienating the Sabbat players in the fandom is their goal. They have a very specific idea for what they want VtM to be and playable Sabbat doesn't fit into it. It does kind of make me wonder how long VtM would have lasted had they not made the Sabbat playable back in the 90s. Not in terms of how long people would keep playing it but in terms of both what kind and how many books they could make over the life of the original run.

[@Iwuznothere]

@@kamui003 White Wolf was late in its part to finally dip into video games, although not entirely its own fault considering how many times it failed to make Werewolf games in the unnamed Capcom Brawler and Heart of Gaia. But they also were the geniuses that licensed the name World of Darkness to Capcom in the 1997 Darkstalkers title Vampire Savior: World of Darkness AKA Vampire Savior 2: The Lord of Vampire. It has NOTHING to do with VtM or any elements of White Wolf's content and likely was trying to weasel profits from Capcom without any effort, so maybe this is what inspired Paradox Interactive's current Games Workshop like modus of Licensing whatever they can get - as much as they can make someone else like Choice of Games do it. As for if Paradox wants to cull player-bases, the bigger issue is that they are cowards who are afraid of what happened when Chronicles of Darkness e1 was created and failed to make the entire fandom leave Old World of Darkness for the newer model so they could replace it. This is why V5 incorporates elements of Requiem in Blood Resonances and attempts to condense Bloodlines and Disciplines into ultimately more confusing and complex sub-types of 6 Dominant Disciplines. They absolutely want create something very different from World of Darkness, but know that WOD is the more popular setting with the prexisting players as well more easy to license property into multimedia (If the Eric Heisserer/Hivemind partnership from last year is even still a thing to make new shows and films). This is where the attitude towards less obedient consumers comes into play. Of trying to Maximize Profits without taking the risks of more openly creating an obvious alternate game that could suffer the same fate as Requiem in self competition and version popularity. And desire for money with little effort in some books being good and others not so much. So they'll flesh shape canon without a care, slap on big price tags hoping the older fandom with bigger wallets will just consume it and pray there is a big enough influx of new blood from the likes of a Netflix show or Bloodhunt that they could replace fans of the old with fans of the new if push came to shove - except that last part isn't happening so far for a variety of likely known and undisclosed factors. Would it be neat to have a Requiem or Dark Ages V20 video games? Absolutely, I am here for a true Deviant: The Renegades dark superhero sandbox RPG. But Paradox both doesn't want to spend money to utilize all of those assets to their full potential and likely don't want to have many horses in this race from a singular World of Darkness of their choosing.

[@kamui003]

@@Iwuznothere A Netflix show would definitely give a boost to the IP but I'm not entirely sure that would translate to people buying the game. It's more likely to just create a secondary audience for Paradox. They also need to really step up the quality of any upcoming video game.

[@Iwuznothere]

@@kamui003 Also true as I don't think the microcosm of people who liked Kindred: The Embraced, but never touched any sort of TTRPG before went out to buy a book and some dice. They were likely just looking for a Buffy/Xena fix. And while I don't mind Choice of Games and Draw Distance Visual Novels, its bad when those two are currently the best and most consistent publishers of WOD video games!

[@mattgunia942]

I discovered VtM during the original edition, but when I was about the same age. My buddies and I tried to get some Vampire games going, but it never got off the ground. I'm happy you got to do some live play. BTW, do you own my Holy Grail of VtM - "Blood at Dawn" that came with the the first edition of the Storytellers Screen?

[@TwoDTen]

Sadly, no. I have an ST screen for each edition except the first. Unfortunately, I've never found one at a reasonable price.

[@9148H2]

Not even the World of Darkness games were perfect. Even with the better ones, there were things that made me want to pull my hair out. And there are things that I found that I liked better in the Chronicles of Darkness line. That being said, I still enjoy World of Darkness, it just needs to go darker in storytelling, and less romantic. Especially with games like Vampire the Masquerade. Also, I stopped playing World of darkness games many years ago when Hipsters were telling me that I'm an idiot for expressing my opinions on why I don't like the path the franchise is going on. World of Darkness went from Gothic Punk to Glee. So I decided to stick with games like Kult Divinity Lost. I find it more enjoyable than the current stage of World of Darkness.

[@SgtReuster]

So how does a newcomer to VtM, use the old books with V5,or do you just walk away from V5 and use the 20th anniversary or 1st edition? I’ve tried the VtR and while ok, the lore from VtM that I’ve read is much better. Oh and I’m starting your podcast from episode 1… I have some work to do

[@AndusDominae]

I will always bring this up. I wrote a tiny bit for V20. I bought the book my words were in, and read it through half a dozen times. That's the last time I bought or read any White Wolf book. My friend who owns a gaming store told me V5 was awesome. Despite his enthusiasm, the way he laid down HOW it was so good put me right off. Everything I've heard about it reinforces my opinion that it's a steaming turd... marginally better than V:tR, which I didn't even consider giving a chance.

[@mjboyle691]

I'm not a hardcore World of Darkness person, but I find the fear of their own lore to be utterly baffling (and it is not just them--WotC is the same way with D&D lore). First off, I always understood that lore was the thing that drew people to the game--that was the killer app. Second, we live in a world where people (and not just self-described "nerds") will go to a Marvel movie that is utterly incomprehensible unless you have already internalized the plot of five previous movies and two Disney+ TV shows. If lore doesn't scare off people from watching Marvel movies, why are they convinced it is the problem here?

[@Estel2121]

I spend 30 fucking US dollars on that shitty sabbat pdf because I thought that they couldnt fail as hard as people were saying. Boy was I wrong. I've been running sabbat for decades at this point. Had homebrewed rules for them in v5 because I couldn't wait for them to finish it. After I finish reading that stupidly and laughably bad book I decided to just go back to requiem. After the release of this book and the stupid twitter campaign saying 'well, you can always play v20!' and the objectively bad storytelling advice in the sabbat book I can say for sure that unless there are drastic changes in how the product is being handled I'm not spending a dime on this game ever again.

[@clairestark9024]

Amen brother, I didn't even buy v5 sabbat after word of mouth spread. The anarch book was so bad I returned and spent the money on wine. The wine tasted great.

[@meno2294]

I agree with you 120% that's why I stick to V20

[@marcosluizreisdossantos8531]

Prior editions of vtm are better than v5. I wrote loooong motives in onyx path forum, rpg net forum etc. V5 is not good

[@Sardonic_Cynic]

you speak only truth, frand; when we have been force to do do TT online we've done V20 because I refuse to play V5; I can't abide how they butchered the lore, let alone everything else

[@Sempermortis84]

Hope all is well, especially after that DA from the org....

[@CrocTheOne]

Did I miss or you didnt touch on the subject of backward in-compability of 5E. That was the hardest part of V5 for me. I really dont like CofD (nWoD) attributes and dice system. If I dont or couldnt use old VtM books with small fixed why do you sell me new books with old name? I love good contiunity both on lore and systemwise.

[@NoName-ym5zj]

Sensitive emo vampires is a good characterization of 5e. My take on the VtM was always that all vampires were doomed to degradation and becoming monsters, so the question isn't whether or not you can keep your humanity, but for how long can you cling on to it? I like the introspective and emotional bits of the game, but this is only a part of what makes WoD so cool, making it a sole focus and defining clear cut good guys and bad guys is just ... not it.

[@AldoMontoyaReynaga]

I totally understand most of the complains and I agree with many of your points. Some like the Sabbat book, I didn't have any problem with it being a ANTAGONIST book, because I always though (I start playing in revised) that the Sabbat as player option was the antithesis of the whole game, meaning "being a monster that didn't care of being one." BUT I don't see bad any players that want to play Sabbat, it's their game too, although I find the Sabbat Vampire contrary to the idea of Masquerade (and to the angsty 90s morality of the game) so no problem with the book, but after some reviews, opinions (yours included) and reading a bit of the PDF I was totally disappoint (in the book). Since they didn't care to portait an interesting antagonist just some loonies that were there to just "fight". The metaplot changes without a reason or just for the sake of allowing a new Edition that disregard 25+ years of lore is my biggest complain with V5 and mostly Paradox since Martin Ericsson (then Lead Storyteller) said in an interview that he "didnt like Masquerade and would like more to do a new edition for Requiem but they (White Wolf) ask him to make a new edition for Masquerade". I don't like Outstar, mostly because I find her too much "fangirl of Paradox" although I totally understand that is her job to attract new people to this edition but some times her replies to fans are a bit to aggressive. But this a personal bias with her. And I find this attitude (of her reply) that IF YOU DON'T PLAY THE GAME AS WE INTENTED TO BE, GO AWAY, invalid. But I see it with a lot of revived IPs by new owners. I understand they (Paradox) want to make a Transmedia IP but disregarding what made the IP great, is not, to being with, a good idea. But time will tell what happen with the IP

[@davidfriend6462]

Okay, but is The Gentleman Gamer okay? I can't tell if he's actually raging out in the comments or if it's some kind of joke that I don't understand.

[@TwoDTen]

Yeah, we have fun. He'll be just fine.

[@KattaDrawsLive]

I'm somwhere in the middle between old fan (watched my brother play bloodlines as a kid and played it myself 10 years later) and a new one (had my first V20 chronicle a few years ago). I own all of the V20 pdfs because I threw the money together with my players. Now I'm preparing for our first V5 chronicle, but haven't played it myself yet. So I cannot comment on gameplay yet. But how can anyone justify the Sabbat book? I picked the book up in the store and when I saw the price I was downright insulted. How can such a thin book cost that much money? I gave it a chance anyway and bought the PDF and sadly the content didn't change my impression. Honestly, one can buy the V20 corebook to get a better introduction to the Sabbat there! I liked Chicago by Night so far though. I'm really optimistic to play V5 as a system, but I think I'll rather reference beckett's jyhad diary and the corebook to build my own lore around it.

[@codychavez9839]

I’m gonna stick with new world of darkness that’s what I grew up on. I mostly play mortals and I enjoy that the most

[@viktormannasz2353]

Old White Wolf made bold, fun and interesting books. New White Wolf (Paradox, Renegade, whatever) is coward, snob and boring.

[@TwoDTen]

I think snobbery has always been a complaint with White Wolf. I don’t know if it’s necessarily valid or not. In my opinion, the books being made today are very much of the time, and it’s not the version of the game I prefer. The argument could be made that the new material is boring compared to previous content, but I don’t universally agree that all the V5 content is boring.

[@viktormannasz2353]

@@TwoDTen "In my opinion, the books being made today are very much of the time, and it’s not the version of the game I prefer." >>> I agree. The Sabbat book is the prime victim of the current creators' mindset. It feels like a watered-down version of the old Sabbat guide and doesn't respect the lore. I don't care what is acceptable in 2022, it's simply wrong if the creators are quasi shaming the players who would like to play Sabbat characters. (Which was possible and supported by official books for decades.) I get that the V5 staff doesn't like the Sabbat, the exotic bloodines and disciplines, level 6+ powers, etc, but they shouldn't ban them and tell the players which is the only good way to play the game.

[@TwoDTen]

@@viktormannasz2353 Oh, I agree. Truthfully, I don't even necessarily agree that the writers/creatives dislike those things. At least with Sabbat, I'd bet that's more a Paradox directive than a writer/dev thing. When you work for or are paid by a company, you gotta do what they want. If they say "this is the company direction," you either do the work and get paid or you do the opposite of that. I'm only speculating though. I have no insider info here. :(

[@qjsharing2408]

Miss your voice

[@DelightfulTyrant]

Gatekeeper your hobbies to keep out dictatorial tourists who will destroy your passion, then move on.

[@DoctorEviloply]

This a thousand percent. Let in the people who just want to play the game. The idiots who just want to lecture and make other people feel bad in what's supposed to be a fun environment should not be welcome.

[@schemage2210]

Pushing away fans by destroying what they liked about your TTRPG is bad. Sure. We are seeing the same thing now with D&D 5e. But dude, everything else you have said is so contradictory. A metaplot that effectively ends any hope for a new edition of a game, is going to result in the new edition having to ignore or rewrite existing lore to exist. And lets face it, do you want the metaplot or the ability to continue playing the game? Because if all you care about is the metaplot, you might as well go read a novel. As for having too much lore, yeah it's a problem. A GM only needs to include as much as they wish but if you need to read 30 volumes of an encyclopedia to actually get enough of a grounding in a setting to run it, you have ISSUES!

[@TwoDTen]

Nah. The consistency of current plot fitting with established lore isn't contradictory. The post-revised/V20 plot was established quite well in Beckett's Jihad Diary, and some of those plotlines have continued into V5. However, many of those plot points have been altered, disregarded or outright changed in the 5th edition. Vampire: The Masquerade is a game driven by metaplot. Reading tons of books to run your game isn't necessary - no more than it is for a game like D&D or Shadowrun, etc. - but the meta exists and drives the game forward. I didn't make it up, they did. So getting mad at me (players and fans) for wanting the company to stay true to the plot THEY "created" (bought) is ass backwards. It's like bringing a garage to the car. It's absurd to tell a consumer that they can do whatever they want with the setting; obviously we can. That's not up for debate and never has been. My ISSUES are laid pretty plainly in the video. I suggest rewatching the video, listening to my words, and actually processing them in your brain. Almost everything you say in your comment is addressed in the video. So yeah, go do that.

[@Daddy_Nooo]

I disagree with many of your points here in this video. I'm writing this as I listen as I feel your video brings up some very specific points and I wish to address them with my own opinions. First: The confusing new metaplot. Personally, I don't find it very confusing. The crux of this is due to the understanding that V5 is a continuity where Gehenna isn't one big end all event, but a cycle of destruction and change. The big events that painted the end of the Vampire the Masquerade line didn't happen or were thwarted. They didn't come to fruition and we're still here. With that in mind, the Beckoning, the Family Reunion, the Lasombra leaving the Sabbat and joining the Cam all makes sense. The world is changing around the Kindred and they are reacting to it differently, depending on who they are. The pricing for the books has always roughly been 45-50 dollars for a new book. That's how it's been and will be thanks to printing costs. The printing industry hasn't been the most fruitful or healthy since the electronic boom so the pricing of the books isn't something I find outrageous. The merch, you have a point on. However, that is official merch with contracts with companies that have a reputation for putting out good quality products made with quality materials. You can easily get a storyteller screen for less that's cardboard on Etsy for much less. Or make your own wooden one if you have the materials, skill, and equipment. Or commission one if you can get one at a cheaper price. World of Darkness isn't shutting down fan creations, rather, they elevate them. Next, your point on the metaplot being something ignored due to it turning people off. That can be true. I have met and spoke with many people who felt the Vampire the Masquerade and other lore huge, intimidating, and used to gatekeep them by asshole players. V5 allowing one to pick up and play, using metaplot of the Beckoning to allow people to play without knowing the lore, is a good thing. That allows new players to come in fresh without having to know a lot or have previous experience. Elders aren't around to tell the stories of Caine, the cults are there to share their versions of the lore, and some don't care about the past. They just want to survive the SI for another night. It's not a bad move. You want lore heavy games, you can still play those. You can bring in that lore and use it in your V5 games with a bunch of fledglings who know nothing about the ancient past. Yes, White Wolf did clearly publish a lot of books and perhaps too many in a short time. That didn't help when not all of it was great and then you had people using it to gatekeep. The new developers, I think, want to make sure the lore is accessible while working to fix and edit the parts that no longer mess with the vision for vampire. I think that's a good thing. As for the Sabbat book, I like the new direction the Black Hand has taken the Sabbat. With their radicalization when faced with the SI and the Beckoning, it makes sense they would lose some of their nuance as those members flee to other sects; the Camarilla and the Anarchs. The Sabbat now is violence and rampage. Sure, you can play it if you want but the book and it's intention was to give Storytellers antagonist books to use to enhance their stories. You can use elements of the Sabbat book too. The Disciplines could be learned or stolen via a player character diablerizing a Sabbat pack member. I see more potential in that book than you give it credit for. The metaplot updates in the back make for some very interesting ideas for stories and just news that can shake player characters hearing about them. I agree the Chicago by Night book had a lot more in it for Storytellers and Players alike. The Sabbat book, however, had a different goal and purpose. You disagree with the goal of the book and that's fair. I am a fan of what is coming out of World of Darkness right now and the fun forward movement of the books. They speak to me and interest me more and more into Vampire the Masquerade. What really infuriates me though is you taking the worst possible interpretation of what Outstar said online in a twitter thread and the worst possible boiled down character idea for VtM and presenting that as if that's what people said. And then pulling from the Battle Royale game to say it clashes with the TTRPG themes isn't really in good faith when you look at it with such a narrow surface view. Taking your criticism with Blood Hunt, actually it does fit if one then takes a step further and asks, how would an all out Kindred warzone affect the humanity of the Kindred involved? How does killing so many fellow Kindred, diablerizing them, and feeding on humans as food and fuel for fighting alone, what does that do to a fledgling? Probably bring their humanity down rather fast, making them monsters who then, once the fighting is over, may either accept their new world view or claw their way back up Humanity in a desperate bid to return to whom they were before. Your ease of taking the worst possible interpretation is disheartening to hear, honestly. Perhaps give people the benefit of the doubt or ask for clarification. Outstar said if you can get the mechanics to work for a Sabbat game, go for it. If you can't, earlier editions are good for that and playing those is a good option too. That's all. I for one am glad someone who worked on the official art could put their own ideas, with two other authors, into a fanbook detailing ideas on how to play the Sabbat. Maybe the writer wanted that and fought for it but didn't get it in the official Sabbat book. At least Paradox allows him to publish the work he wanted in the Storyteller's vault. I see nothing wrong with that honestly. This is where I'll say, we probably won't see eye to eye on this. I've said my piece and I'm happy I have. V5 is going in this new direction and it's one I am thoroughly enjoying. World of Darkness said their goal with the relaunch of V5 and other properties was to become a household name. Games, movies, TV shows, the works. To expand their audience exponentially. I'm along for this ride, through the good, the bad, and the interesting. It isn't for you and that's fair. As long as our games are fun, that's what matters.

[@ForbiddenSlurp]

150% agreeeeeeeeeee

[@clairestark9024]

I think my biggest rebuttal of this approach to the Sabbat is you could already do it in previous editions and a lot more other things on top. It's reductive rather than expansive and so is inferior. Its also pretty useless for story tellers since it doesn't really provide a great beyond "weird death cultists engage in asymmetric warfare." Your players generally arnt really going to experiance any distinctions in any obvious ways from previous Ed Sabbat anyway. Except they've got less going on if you somehow interact in less hostile context.

[@Daddy_Nooo]

I do see what you mean by it was already playable so why not now? The focus on the game has shifted and with some changed, they wanted to have the Sabbat and SI as primarily antagonists. There are other monstrous varieties of Kindred you can play. The Cult of Shalim, Cult of Mithras, Church of Caine, etc. Those options are still available and playable other than the the Sabbat. And with the evolution of the Paths of Enlightenment, there are some interesting conversations player characters could have. Thin Bloods speaking with Path of the Sun Thin Bloods, Hecata talking with Path of Soul Death and Soul scholars, Church of Caine having arguments with those on the Path of Caine about how Caine truly wishes to be honored. I see potential, personally, thanks to the book.

[@clairestark9024]

@@Daddy_Nooo yes and this is an error of judgement in regards to the Sabbat. That just emphasises the absurdity that you cant play Sabbat. Devolution is more accurate, they've been aggressively dumbed down and you can't play them anyway so it's unlikely you'll get any meaningful insight as Sabbat are hyper hostile so the 'conversation' is them trying to kill you or occasionally convert you.... Which you can't do anyway so it will escalate to violence and half the paths have been put on a bus and arnt in the game anymore. I see the opposite and I'm unsure were you're coming from. Nothing about the book expands, it just aggressively retracts on all aspects. I'm somewhat bemused by your stance..could you give me an example of something you could do with v5 which you can't with previous editions?

[@BrooklynFirstTeam]

You typed a lot of words just to say a whole lot of nothing. 🤭

[@thepastaman1]

If anything about how a niche rpg publisher does things pisses you off, then just play the GURPS conversion. It might even end up being better than the current edition.

[@thepastaman1]

I will note that this excuses nothing that nu-WW under Paradox has done, merely noting that there are alternatives to giving them money.

[@TwoDTen]

I have no issue playing V20.

[@deathdealer13cat]

Lore can definitely b a gatekeeper. Don't agree with that take at all

[@TwoDTen]

Tip of the hat to you.

[@deathdealer13cat]

@@TwoDTen just a difference of opinion. U did make some points I wholeheartedly agree with, especially about Bloodhunt

[@TwoDTen]

@@deathdealer13cat Exactly. I can't be mad just because we have a different opinion.

[@cgaming4439]

I think he succinctly mentions the true gatekeeper. People.... For instance the guy/gal who knows a ton of the lore of game X and lord's it over everyone.... There's your turn off. It's a gatekeeper if you let it be. Or it helps to flesh out and build the world around you. Different strokes though.

[@clairestark9024]

It depends on level, the basics in Revised are concisely explained quickly and efficiently. You get depth and ease of entrance. You get a solid outline of each clan. Its a balancing act too deep lore and it's impenetrable to little and it's bland mush.

[@Supermarket_Ape]

The community version of the Sabbat book written by @kkhelil is better than the official Sabbat book and has already had 2 updates to it since coming out, both fixing editing mistakes AND providing additional content. Those V5 aluminium dice made by an Australian based, multinational company? Are more expensive to buy in Australia, than the US. $US220 (~$AU290) in the US; $AU350 to order from Australia, and you can't get the set discount unless you email them first. Buying a full set in Australia without emailing them first is $AU400.

[@clairestark9024]

That book Still has issues that's its using the crappy v5 lore for Sabbat and is way more expensive than the other story teller alternative. But you're right its a really solid book.

[@Supermarket_Ape]

@@clairestark9024 I have all 3 ST Sabbat books, they all have highlights. Soon I will print out the other two so I have physical copies. It'll be interesting to see what he delivers with his upcoming Sabbat scenarios.

[@clairestark9024]

@@Supermarket_Ape possibly, I'm going very blunt here after about his approach to v5 sabbat- I find myself trying to figure out he's just spouting corporate platitudes or if he's an idiot.

[@ForbiddenSlurp]

Yeah, you see I think where a lot of people get hung up is on the fact that V5 simply isnt for you. It's not for people who grew up with VTM because yall have already expressed your feelings a looong time ago when :The Requiem dropped and flopped. None of the supplements sold. More so than back then youre old now and you like what you like, and anything new isn't going to be good enough. Thats not to shit on you or anything its just how human brains work. White Wolf went under bc people didnt want changes to the game they grew to love, after WW was out of splats to come out with. The only way for them to continue as a business was to switch things up. Theyve learned the hard lesson that the company will not survive if it relies on its old fanbase. Its just not realistic. Businesses are about GROWTH and the old fanbase is a finite number of people. Theyre doing what any smart business would do, and trying to grow a new fanbase out of gen-z. When VTM first came out you were the demographic. Youre not anymore, and thats okay. 2nd edition and V20 still have tons of fans arranging chronicles, your books dont come with planned obsolescence, youll be absolutely fine. Also as an old fan who actually likes V5 a LOT, Bloodhunt straight up feels like a sect war in old WoD. Though again I will go out of my way to stress this game wasnt meant for you. Its meant for kids who are into goth shit and BR games, in the hopes that the goth shit bleeds over and they get interested in VTM as a whole, not unlike how Bloodlines did all those years ago. Just remember were old now, were not a target demo, and thats okay.

[@clairestark9024]

That all works on the fallacy you can't attract new people while keeping the old ones buying your stuff. Roleplay is a repeat customer business afterall.

[@lucatirelli545]

DnD 5 is a love letter to old players and it's also a total success for a new generation of gamers. V5 is simply a lazy work. Clans like DLCs, Disciplines destroyed instead of reworked and Sabbat removed. At least, Requiem was more honest (and well done) as a reboot

[@Bleedingseraph]

"More so than back then youre old now and you like what you like, and anything new isn't going to be good enough. Thats not to shit on you or anything its just how human brains work." Uhm... what? No. This is a really shitty take and utterly ridiculous to boot. A LOT of us older players enjoy new shit all the time. New interpretations, etc. Fuck, try selling this line to the majority of comics fans wherein continuity reboots are so common as to be a meme. We still like and follow our new stuff (with the exception of some that don't like new takes). This take is not generalizable to people at large, nor is it to Nate. Also, the comment below about D&D 5th edition is spot on. You can keep core material and gain new customers as well as retain old ones. To say you cannot is a fallacy and bad faith argument.

[@clairestark9024]

@@lucatirelli545 yeah and 4th which was designed with new guys in mind went down like a wet fart in an elevator

[@MrNickPresley]

That’s a braindead take. Aside from trying to frame detractors as old fogies who are just set in their ways and hate change in that patronizing “Ok, boomer” tone that aptly demonstrates your sneering contempt for anyone with a dissenting opinion, you’re basing your entire argument on the stupid assumption that a company can’t appease both. Ideally, a company should be able to keep long-time fans while gaining new ones. But White Wolf will do neither if V5 is any indication, because V5 is- say it with me- TRASH.