Let's Talk About Deathlord

Having finished almost 55 hours of playing Deathlord, a 1987 game from EA. It's time to talk about our thoughts on the game. In a very special episode we go through all the pieces we think worked and didn't.
The next long game is Crusader: No Remorse.
Our next short game is Mastertronic's Street Beat!
Thank you all for watching!
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Watch some of our playthroughs here:
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[@fightingfortruth9806]

You guys need to check out Deathlord Reloaded. Whole new modern interface, new graphics, and they got rid of the level drain and the secret door search chance.

[@NathanSeraph]

Many thanks for your efforts in doing the whole playthrough. To be honest when you both startet the game one year ago, I thought that you will not finish it, because it is so huge. I also played the game for some time and made good progress too, but I never finished it. But maybe someday I will. Another question. Is there any chance that you will do a "talk about" on Magic Candle someday? I know it would also be a somewhat bigger project but I would really love to see it.

[@marklemmert6840]

17:17, oh wow, Matt almost laughs Chris right off his chair! I'll make serious comments later but just had to call out this hilarious moment.

[@yurikendal4868]

Through your guys play through, an inspiring for a remaster of this game. I pitched this idea to some beginning game developers. They liked the idea very much. They are reviewing you guy's play through

[@greggregson9687]

Deathlord. Now that brings back memories. First up; "How did I find out about Deathlord?". One of my friends, and his older brothers, had a C64, and they loved playing RPG's on it. They are the reason I found out about CRPG's in the first place, but anyway...the oldest brother came home from work while I was playing a game with the younger brother on the commodore. He showed us the new game he had picked up that afternoon, a nice, shiny new copy of Deathlord in the album cover. He planned to start playing it later that night. Anyway, a few days later, I went over to their place, where I noticed the Deathlord album lying on the floor in the doorway to his bedroom. I asked him about it, and he said the game was utter shit. As the days and weeks went by, this album cover just kept lying there, on the floor, in his doorway. People would just walk over it and go about their business (they were pretty untidy people), but I would always notice it and not step on it. Then, one day I asked if I could take it home and give it a whirl. He laughed and told me to keep it. So that is how I got my copy of Deathlord, which is still in decent condition even after all the pedestrian traffic that went over it. I played this thing to death back on my C64, but never finished it (bet you heard that before). I never gave up on it, but I kept getting distracted by newer games like the Goldbox collection, Ultima games, Wasteland, the Questron/Legacy games, Dragon Wars, Magic Candle and so on. I would come back, map a little, fight a little, maybe find another item, but then put it aside again for a new game. When I got hold of my first Amiga and PC, well, the C64 was put into storage along with my old games. They are back out again now, so perhaps I will pick up where I left off. Just to let you know too, there is a fanmade remake for modern systems named "relorded" just in case you are interested.

[@ChrisFreeman_4Bit]

We've heard that a lot since doing these videos. The game is a rough finish if you have no help, clues, or anything else. Once you kind of get the hang of it you're like "Oh, this makes sense, I just need that initial push to figure out it's logic." Relorded is more a reskin than a remake. A remake would be interesting, but Relorded makes enough changes under the hood that it definitely bring the learning curve more in line with modern sensibilities.

[@rpscorp9457]

Magic Candle is another one i never managed to finish. Dragon Wars was awesome as it was a lot like bards tale.

[@yurikendal4868]

I really enjoyed watching your guys play through. Chatting w/ you guys played. Its quite the big highlights for me. Almost an unusual familal experience

[@ClassicContagious]

Only 55 hours to complete? i've always heard it would be hundreds of hours. Great job guys on this one. I hope one day to complete it was well.

[@ChrisFreeman_4Bit]

If you haven't played it before, and aren't using maps... 100+ hours is probably more accurate. When I played it in High School it took me over 2 years of on and off playing to get it all done.

[@ClassicContagious]

@@ChrisFreeman_4Bit Ahh that makes a lot of sense. I'm like that with Wizard's Crown.

[@ChrisFreeman_4Bit]

@@ClassicContagious I'm looking forward to playing that one again. That and Magic Candle I think are my big two "I should play these again, and probably before I play them with Matt."

[@yurikendal4868]

@@ChrisFreeman_4Bit matt would appreciate the extra preparation on your part Im sure

[@themanwithnoname8471]

I played this for years and never completed it. This was my favorite game when I was a kid.

[@dfortaeGameReviews]

Thank you for this, Chris and Matt. I really enjoyed it! Now I don't have to play it! :P Seriously though, excellent work. I know how much time you both invested, and I appreciate the knowledge you shared.

[@ChrisFreeman_4Bit]

Thank you! It really was our pleasure. And I'm sure many people will share that "And now I don't have to!"

[@yurikendal4868]

@@ChrisFreeman_4Bit it gave me a lot think about. I had a ball

[@josephbseeley]

Homeric achievement gents, bravo! I was fascinated by the Death Lord advertisement in A+ back in the day and almost began playing during sophomore year of college. Didn't realize what a bullet I dodged. As it was, I almost flunked math that year due to the release of Civ 1 (just one more turn until the crack of dawn! 😏 Later on reading reviews I understood the dungeons were ridiculous, but never fullygrasped how crazy hard and epic in scale a work it is. Really enjoyed the discussion, keep up the great job!!

[@ChrisFreeman_4Bit]

Thanks for watching! Civ 1 was such a time sink. Loved every minute of it. And yeah, playing this game is quite an achievement, but can you imagine writing it? I can't wrap my head around how much work this had to take back then.

[@josephbseeley]

@@ChrisFreeman_4Bit any chance of getting the original programmers on for a discussion?

[@theLostSectorsDiscussions]

@@josephbseeley The only thing that would stop it is knowing how to get a hold of them! I would LOVE to do an interview with them.

[@josephbseeley]

@@theLostSectorsDiscussions Here is Al Escudero's LinkedIn profile: ca.linkedin.com/in/aescudero Worth contacting and see if he's up for a talk? It would be awesome to hear the story in full.

[@ChrisFreeman_4Bit]

@@josephbseeley I've reached out. Now we wait.

[@yurikendal4868]

Yes. You guys are unique in deathlord play through. I also think its a knowledgeable opinion you gave.

[@Goldenageofgames]

Lol if you guys want to reboot back in time, I am planning on doing a let’s play of the original Deathlord. And I shall be using my party of choice. Ryoshi Yakuza Shisai Genkai Mahotsukai Shisai. I am in your discord, this is my favorite CRPG of all time. And I do indeed love to grind in this (in my mind, perfect) game. Although I cannot find my save disk that has my level 24 party in it. But that’s what a restart is all about lol. Starting from scratch. I am 51 years old, and I probably had an easier time getting into this game because of my background in playing Dungeons & Dragons since 1980, a little bit of Oriental adventures, my brother having a little two book adventure from Advanced Dungeons & Dragons oriental adventures called warlords, and our family getting cable in 1986. I am definitely a super fan lol. And I have never won the game yet. And it’s about time that I did. Listened to the whole hour and a half by the way!

[@theLostSectorsDiscussions]

@@Goldenageofgames definitely time to fix that! Let us know if you want help.

[@rpscorp9457]

I never finished it either unfortunately...I think my brain was too young back then..i couldn't really reason out how to finish it lol... C64 i believe.

[@arturick673]

Five minutes in, "We should talk about the races." Hour and a half later, "So, we're still playing Crusader..."

[@ChrisFreeman_4Bit]

Ha! Yeah, that is a problem with this format, especially long episodes. For anyone else looking for a race breakdown: So, we did mention the races are poorly balanced, and they are. Mostly that HP per level seem to rely pretty heavily on the race, as Toshi will never see high HP and they don't seem to get the stats to compensate for that. They also can have rather drastic swings on stats which doesn't seem to get compensation in other areas to make up for it. Otherwise the races are just name switched (sometimes) version of classic races: Toshi and Nintoshi are Elves and Half Elves. Kobito are Dwarves. Obake are halflings? Kinda? Humans, gnomes, Trolls and Ogres are exactly what they sound like.

[@iguanac6466]

For some reason I never finished this on my C64 even though I enjoyed it. I started playing again years ago with C64 images on an emulator and could not find actual working images. Next I tried to play on an Apple II emulator. The boot images and the scenario A images worked fine, but then I got to the point in the game where you insert scenario B...and I could not find a single working scenario B image. Another issue with the Apple version in an emulator, sometimes the maps would horizontally offset at a seemingly random point in the map...which sometimes made the entire map past this offset unpassable. Finally, I saw a new project recently called Deathlord Relorded. You should check it out. Having fun playing this and I might actually beat it this time! (oh...and one more thing...the samurai graphic looks like TMNT Leonardo...good luck unseeing that)

[@ChrisFreeman_4Bit]

That problem happens with emulators more than with the regular game (though it did happen to me a few times). Something about the way memory is handled just starts to crud up the maps and they get corrupted, then, even worse, get saved to the disk when you enter/leave them. Doing disk copy and party transfer tricks kept the game from being unplayable for me, but man what a hassle. Relorded got a lot of attention during development on the TLS Discord server. I gave some advice on what I thought needed to stay in the game to be true to it's spirit. He did a great job. Nostalgia will always keep me playing the original, but I'm glad Relorded is out there for everyone else.

[@AncientElectronics]

Wonder if there's any significant differences between the Apple II and C64 versions.

[@ChrisFreeman_4Bit]

Depends on what you mean by 'significant'. I've noticed some things like pooling money drops extra in the Apple II, but not the C64, and the movement keys are different, but mostly things seem to line up on the whole. I'd be interested if anyone else has noticed any other differences.

[@AncientElectronics]

@@ChrisFreeman_4Bit visuals wise its been a little hard to tell from The screenshots which version has the edge. I'd assume sound wise the C64 may sound better.

[@ChrisFreeman_4Bit]

@@AncientElectronics The C64 sounds better for sure, but not by much. Deathlord isn't bringing a ton to the table audibly. Graphically... very, very similar. The pallets obviously have some differences, but someone on our discord opened up all the sprites and they look about the same across the board, while some are a 1:1 transfer. Personally, the C64 was my childhood computer, so to me it's 'better' because of the nostalgia. But I would suspect people who grew up with an Apple II would say the same thing about that version.

[@nerodcs3087]

i was unprepared for this

[@ChrisFreeman_4Bit]

I don't think any of us were.

[@yurikendal4868]

@@ChrisFreeman_4Bit it was a trip

[@ajeba98]

51:00 Garriott was a bit of a tyrant back then. (guess he was working on that Soyuz money) He tortured the Questron devs back then by complaining to publishers till he threatened SSI with a lawsuit and they settled out of court. This got him box credits and money for Garriott on Question 1. None of this shit would happen today and would have never made it to court. Just look at all the indie derivative work on Steam. He was jealous of how good Question was. Question was better than Original Ultima 1 and Ultima 2, and wasn't equalized till Ultima 3 and the rewrite of Ultima 1.

[@ajeba98]

Having said that, I really can't blame him, too much early on, since California Pacific and Serria On-Line wouldn't pay him his royalties for U1 and U2. At that point he saw any derivative work as someone trying to screw him out of money and went on the offensive to protect his brand. I didn't know this story about his conflict with EA over Deathlord and I know a lot about RG history. I would suspect he realized his triggered emotional responses over protecting his brand screwed him out of more money than any derivative work could.

[@ChrisFreeman_4Bit]

I can and can't. Like you said, California Pacific did a number on him, and it sounds like Sierra was not exactly his best friend either. And then in more modern times, NC Soft took him for a ride and he had to sue to get what he was owed. But he built his whole empire on being D&D but slightly different, so I don't know how much slack to really give him on it. The Deathlord history is only really mentioned in one or two places, and it's only because I really love this game and him that I even found that.

[@marklemmert6840]

22:25 I totally agree. Boo level drain!

[@yurikendal4868]

I like level drain, if it can be healed by healers

[@marklemmert6840]

@@yurikendal4868 Ok, now that is a fair point. I don't recall level drain being healed by healers in any game I've played with level drain, but I wouldn't have an issue with level drain if it could be healed.

[@yurikendal4868]

@@marklemmert6840 the remastered bards tale has that exact mechanic, healing level drain. It works quite well

[@marklemmert6840]

@@yurikendal4868 Oh that is interesting, they nerfed level drain in the remaster! The original Bard's Tale did not let you undo it at the healer. You were screwed. I can totally see why they did that in the remaster - good call on their part for sure!

[@eobet]

I could have sworn you played through Dark Heart of Uukrul, but now I can't find that video. Did I misremember?

[@theLostSectorsDiscussions]

Sadly. Not yet. It’s on my list though.

[@billhoggett5918]

@Chris dying inside 10 minutes... LOL!

[@ChrisFreeman_4Bit]

Deathlord hates you. From minute 1 through hour 55.

[@yurikendal4868]

Odd at how Tim is a discussion point. Though, straight up, its a VERY NECESSARY point.

[@yurikendal4868]

Yes. Ease of communication is a must

[@yurikendal4868]

Matts references to disaters was appopiate. And sadly today in 2020, he STILL isnt wrong

[@yurikendal4868]

Where is yalls play channel

[@vogueblackheart]

why do kobito make up only 13% of lorn's population but hide over 40% of the gold? makes you think... thank you for appreciating water features. best, 3 frontline kichigai with berzerk swords

[@CaptainRufus]

Dunno if I'd say Origin is overrated but Garriott sure is. And I say this as a huge Ultima fan.

[@ChrisFreeman_4Bit]

It's funny that I was just thinking about this yesterday. When I want to go back to play an old RPG, Ultima still tends to be the one I find most appealing. Deathlord is up there, but Ultima 1,3,4 and 5 all are really strong contenders and I do actually replay them still. All other old CRPGs, tend to have me go "I should do that" and then never do. But other than Wing Commander, what other Origin game or franchise really stands out? Windwalker? Omega? Space Rogue? Knights of Legend? They have a lot of games, but other than those two series, and even they have some misses, the company wasn't killing it. Like if I go back and pick up basically any Activision or Imagic game for the Atari at the time, it's going to be good to great. I can't say the same about Origin. So, I don't think Ultima is overrated (at least not a lot) but for me Origin as a whole probably is.

[@CaptainRufus]

@@ChrisFreeman_4Bit System Shock.

[@ChrisFreeman_4Bit]

@@CaptainRufus eh. Published by them when they were owned by EA. I give that to Looking Glass who really did the work.

[@yurikendal4868]

These classes are your standard d/d classes. Unfortunately the odd ball names give no context for American players. They could have put American titles next to them

[@Painocus]

They don't really give much context for Japanese players either. The races for example: Toshi just means "age" (at-least that's the meaning I think they are going for). Obake are a Japanese monster, but they are shapeshifters, which the Obake in Deathlord are not. Kobito just means small person so a Japanese player might figure out in a roundabout way that they mean western mythological Dwarf, and not a child or a little person. I don't even know what "Nitoshi" is meant to mean.

[@gyrz19]

I totally disagree with your opinions on race names in the games, Its so bring to only have Elf, dwarf, etc, rehashed Tolkein/DnD. I want my games to add more unique races and names.

[@ChrisFreeman_4Bit]

I don't disagree with more, and they brought in some other things, but 2 things on that, especially re: Deathlord. 1. If there's nothing in the game that feels familiar, it will have a harder time for players to resonate within it's context. You need something to be a sort of reference point before diving all in. Basically, it's possible to be too different. 2. They really didn't here though is the issue. It's still elves, dwarves, etc. They just call them something different. It's like saying you want more colors than Red, blue and green but the game just gives you red, blue and green but calls them der, eulb adn neerg. It's not more colors, it's just rebranding colors. I'd rather just have the colors named properly.