Let's talk about the framework situation, what should've been done differently, and my biases

🔵 / framework_11th_gen_lap...
🔵 community.frame.work/t/rework...
🔵 community.frame.work/t/viabil...
• The horrible truth abo...
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00:00 - Intro
00:08 - Cat training
00:45 - Framework is no longer Intel exclusive
01:37 - Intro to discussion of design flaw
01:54 - Skip this, framework forum pet peeve
02:38 - Framework's design flaw
03:51 - My bias
04:40 - How to fix the problem
05:07 - Roar
05:20 - Bruh
05:26 - Framework's solution to fix the problem
05:40 - Criticism from users
06:00 - Cope from users
06:15 - Both are right, but this doesn't comfort users
07:08 - Why I am forgiving of framework and not of Apple
08:36 - Calling Framework just like Apple is not fair: Apple gaslights
09:45 - How should this be solved?
10:30 - People will complain. They will be mad
10:50 - It is better for them to be normal disappointed than raging mad
12:28 - I can't do this
12:36 - Framework needs a salaried employee to do this
15:02 - Anger management
15:44 - Recalls will not go over 5% of sales most likely
16:15 - What I think they should do vs. what they are doing
17:20 - The new products

[@rossmanngroup]

To be clear, I think they are an amazing company, and I wish them the best of success. Outside of this one issue on how I think they could've dealt with the 11th gen better, I still think they make a kickass product, and I look forward to the 16" coming out so I can buy one. They sent me the one I use now for free, but I am happy to pay full price for the 16" one because the 13" one was a good enough product for me to feel good using it even without any discount. At the same time, to hold them to a different standard because I ideologically agree with them, or got a free laptop, would turn me into just another run of the mill tech... I hate the word... _"influencer"_ .... you guys deserve better than that

[@aidanbishop7924]

Great to see that Framework is still holding up as a great repair friendly company even as they grow in size and options available.

[@Locutus]

Linus just released a video about his Framework investment. He regrets not buying more of their shares!

[@MrTheinfoman]

I mean product can have some issues even framework has imperfections in the real world there no such thing as a perfect laptop. At least Framework does give you schematics and tutorial that even 3rd party can actually repair

[@DazzaJay]

16" hell yeah. The only reason why i haven't purchased a framework yet is because a laptop without a built in numpad is a hard no for me, and the 13" has no numpad

[@ChrisModjeska]

Thank you so much for bringing this up. I was an early adopter who was pretty badly affected by this. It was difficult actually getting framework to admit there was a problem and not give me the run-around. It actually damaged the battery whenever I would not use the laptop for a few weeks, killing it. It was hard not getting acknowledgement about the issue. I only got to use my framework for maybe 20 hours total.

[@rath6599]

Framework is an amazing company, but pointing out flaws is important. It's the only way they can get better-er.

[@TenOfZero1]

Yup, if no one looks closelier things will never improve

[@pyrojinn]

They can never be better-est, but better-er is fine by me

[@bartolomeothesatyr]

@@pyrojinn I disagree; given any set of things of varying quality, at least one member of that set is going to be the better-est, and so long as Framework maintains its commitment to ownership rights, they might just be the better-er-est.

[@Felice_Enellen]

@@bartolomeothesatyr I can't believe it's not better-er-est!

[@ptrkmr]

Plus I’m sure they appreciate constructive criticism. They only have so much brain power over there and this isn’t something they have resources to think about, especially as they’re trying to make profit. If anything, Louis probably genuinely helped them here and they’d be glad he provided a potential solution

[@veleriphon]

Framework actually improving their product(s) over time is a positive bias. They're not telling customers, "You're holding it wrong."

[@rossmanngroup]

The fact that they are not telling their users _"issue, what do you mean issue?"_ puts them radically ahead of Apple already.

[@wweeks]

I still think about the three-finger iphone hold on a monthly basis. What a bizarre story.

[@jamesabestos2800]

@rossmanngroup Cat Pog

[@quinchypig2]

​@@rossmanngroup the only issue with Apple is that you havent bought a replacement product. /s

[@Felice_Enellen]

@@wweeks Me too. That whole late night conversation Jobs had with a customer was such a watershed moment for him. I can never forget it. Every time I joke at someone, "ur doin it rong," it's Jobs' voice in my head, but with a dull-witted hick accent.

[@ayane_m]

The reason the AMD specs aren't yet showing up on the Framework website is because the chips themselves haven't officially been launched by AMD. There's likely a lot of red tape/NDA stuff that prevents them from stating the GPU and CPU model until a couple of weeks from now.

[@tekcomputers]

this is likely it. Framework has the info in preparation for manufacture, but can't release it because there would most certainly be a NDA in place until AMD officially announces

[@RonWolfHowl]

But then why are they selling it? Never heard of someone selling a CPU or GPU without stating its specs. That’s a hundreds-of-dollars grab bag.

[@yvrelna]

​@@RonWolfHowlIIUC, the laptop is not being sold yet. It's a preorder, not a sales of the laptop. The preorder requires you to put in a fully refundable $100 deposit, if you cancel you'll get all of it back. They'll most definitely release the full CPU spec as soon as AMD allows them to do so, which should be well ahead before they're starting to ship, at which point you can just cancel your order if you don't like what you see. Also, for many people the exact CPU doesn't really matter that much, as the unique selling point of the device isn't the CPU, so a few dollars differences between different CPU generations wouldn't really be a deal breaker. So I don't see why they should necessarily delay opening up the pre-order yet; if you don't want to put in the deposit without fully knowing the CPU spec, then you can just wait until the information released. A lot of other companies opens up pre-orders with even less information than what Framework currently have, it's not completely unusual for a preorder to not come with complete information.

[@Gramini]

@@RonWolfHowl It's not being sold yet.

[@tryfinally]

Update: as predicted above, they updated the website after a couple of weeks. The CPUs are 7640U and 7840U.

[@EthanWord]

I'm sure someone has said this already, but the reason the Ryzen version of the Framework 13 just says "Ryzen 7" now is because the actual chips it's using haven't been announced yet by AMD so Framework isn't allowed to state specifically which models are going to be in it. We'll know more specifics soon but leaks are already a good indicator of what Framework will be using.

[@canaconn2388]

I just hope they don't have pluton

[@satibel]

@@canaconn2388 from what I gather, it's only used for secure boot and at request, so if you use linux it's not used, and if you use windows you probably don't care about it. also you (or hopefully framework) can disable the spi chip so it doesn't load the firmware at boot. but if you're concerned about that you can probably just cut a trace to disable it.

[@tomatopotato4229]

They're selling 5600 ddr5 ram with it. Have a look at Wikipedia (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_AMD_Ryzen_processors#Phoenix_(7040_series)): "Phoenix (7040 series) Common features of Ryzen 7040 notebook APUs: Socket: FP7, FP7r2, FP8. All the CPUs support *DDR5-5600* or LPDDR5X-7500 in dual-channel mode." Maybe that's a hint :) That would be the 7840HS then.

[@usr01]

It’s a phoenix chip.

[@RonWolfHowl]

But then why are they selling it? Never heard of someone selling a CPU or GPU without stating its specs. That’s a hundreds-of-dollars grab bag.

[@FlyMIfYouGotM]

Personally, I'll take, "connect wire A to pad B" all day long over, "problem? We've got no problem!". The only problem I have with Framework is that I can't order and get a 16" laptop until late this year!

[@rossmanngroup]

Yeah. I think it is not right to compare to Apple where they gaslight the fuck out of you. iphone 6+ touch IC issues, gaslight until recall C7771, just gaslight C9560 issue on A1286 2010 macbook, gaslight until recall 2011 MBP GPU issues on A1286 2011 macbook, gaslight until recall A1278 2009-2012 HDD cable issues, gaslight, no recall iPhone 7 audio issues, gaslight, no recall iPhone 7 no service issues, gaslight until recall a1707 flexgate issues, gaslight, no recall a17076 flexgate issues, gaslight until recall i could go on for hours. acknowledging the issue and telling people how to fix it is INFINITELY Better than _"what do you mean? nobody else has this issue or complains about it!"_ treatment you get from Apple. but there'd be infinitely more good will if they offered to just do the bodge wire repair for the customer. again, they will not be as happy as they will be with an issue-less machine - but they will also not go scorched earth on you, go to regulators to create fuss, or become antifans telling everyone to avoid your products either.

[@CreativityNull]

​@@rossmanngroup They could even offer a rebate upon request to compensate the customer a set amount for having to deal with the issue or at least to help offset the cost of repair. You do it this way to (and this is going to sound shitty) minimize loss to just the people that care about the issue. Ideally they would do this for ALL affected customers, but having a really easy to setup rebate isn't too bad either.

[@mojpismonosa]

@@rossmanngroup Do you think they might be other reasons to not have bodge-wires-service offer for older models? I could think of maybe not satisfying some of the strict consumer grade electronics certifications (safety, electromagnetic interference, changing "product spec" after it's release and certification, potential flight risks or so) if the company would offer that kind of service...

[@dowster593]

@@CreativityNull either rebate or they directly pay select repair retailers like Louis to fix it. I’m sure if any framework user shipped their laptop and the framework instructions over to Louis it would be a relatively easy repair for his shop to perform.

[@CreativityNull]

@@dowster593 Rebate would be easier and cheaper for the company to pull off as far as I know. Less people involved at least.

[@bartolomeothesatyr]

This has not diminished my desire to make my next laptop a Framework.

[@wayando]

I wish Framework to succeed and go bigger with their concept.

[@seriouscat2231]

You mean more than 16 inches?

[@wayando]

More like, bigger sales.

[@plainlake]

I wish it forces the big players to follow up or loose profit.

[@seriouscat2231]

@@plainlake, it's spelled 'lose'.

[@joshuagomez3600]

Overall I get it. Framework is a BRAND NEW company that is struggling to get their footing in a very anti small business environment. And they are doing an overall fantastic job on most thing and I think all things considered they are doing damn good and its reasonable to give them a little wiggle room compared to someone like apple. They are absolutely the opposite of apple. Apple is making things intentionally impossible to fix as much as they can while framework is making things as fixable as possible and keeping interchangeability and many other things the rest of the market is trying to do away with.

[@BrunodeSouzaLino]

Usually, small businesses are responsible for killing themselves 99% of the time and it has nothing to do with the environment.

[@leovin00]

Love how Louis can seamlessly switch between speaking in binary and in English

[@technic1285]

He grew up in a binarylingual household. I'm sure it's just what feels natural at this point.

[@Blitterbug]

You referring to his spooky memory for part numbers / threshold voltages etc? I agree!

[@andrerichardson]

My point exactly 😂

[@FlyboyHelosim]

Except it's not binary.

[@LRM12o8]

Lol, now I wanna hear Louis say these parts numbers in actual binary numbers 😂 Eg: instead of _"C7-771"_ it would be _"C 0111-0111-0111-0001",_ or in ascii: _"0100 0011 - 0011 0111 - 0010 1101 - 0011 0111 - 0011 0111 - 0011 0001"_ That would be hilarious and the best thing is: I would understand him just as well. 😂

[@MikkoRantalainen]

If your own framework computer suffers from this issue, it would be cool to make a video where you implement the workaround for that hardware. You could also demontrate much cleaner implementation of the jumper wires than the one shown in the official documentation.

[@MrM0U53]

And then framework can link to his video as a how-to video guide - win win!

[@winebartender6653]

It's just the wires they use is all. He's just suggesting using magnet wire and (presumably) and liquid solder mask. Beyond that, everything else is fine.

[@MikkoRantalainen]

@@winebartender6653 Yes, but the point of a video would be to show how quick the job is to complete if you have proper equipment and use proper wires.

[@tarickw]

Important update, they are working on some kind of bodge where you replace the battery with a PCB in the battery holder with one wire soldered on some resistors on the board. That patch looks way easier to do

[@BiberbuilderHD]

Available to order from Support now, but sadly one still has to solder it by oneself.

[@rabidrabbit6863]

@@BiberbuilderHD tbh soldering is a skill most people should learn anyway

[@JonathanKayne]

As a PCB designer I will say that these sort of issues are inevitable. You are gonna have issues no matter how good you are. You hope that you catch them before you go into production but they can still fall through the cracks. The fact that they fixed it in the next revision already puts them on the moral high ground imho, even if that ground is just above a lake of toxic waste.

[@user-rc4zk8ge1g]

This. If you roll a complex PCB design and your first fabbed prototype has absolutely no issues, you have the luck of the devil. It's common for the first internal revision of PCB to not work at all without some extensive bodge wiring, cut traces and other makeshift modifications. It's common for a design to go into limited production before some rare or hard-to-catch issue makes itself known, and you just hope it can be fixed in production or in software.

[@ZiggyMercury]

The problem is that companies - giant and tiny ones alike - sell stuff before rigorously testing it, including as the "daily driver" of employees (or even of non-employees, like a those people who test Windows' beta stuff).

[@TheDeathmail]

@@ZiggyMercury It's not like they don't test them... but sometimes, they just have to release the product. If they take too long, they can't make money and they die... simple as that... At least for Framework, they have the benefit that most of their 1st time customer base are tech enthusiasts that understood that there would be 1st gen issues... We understood that it would have issues and we'd have quite a lot of problems. But we were supporting a cause we believed in and had faith that the money we spent would go into more improvements for the next design...

[@DavidSolimano]

I think how framework is handling it is fine personally - when I buy one, I know what I'm getting into, as compared to buying a Thinkpad. But I'm a bit of a tech head and kind of expect all of my computers to be science projects, not a normal user.

[@rossmanngroup]

I am glad that the userbase and my viewerbase is understanding. A company is trying to do something that most companies are not doing. they are taking on the beast of unrepairability, and putting their money where their mouth is. They have to catch up with companies that have 20-40 years more experience. There will be mistakes, and if you want repairability, some understanding in the beginning rather than _"fuck them I'm just going back to Acer"_ is warranted, IMO. They will make a schematic available if you sign an NDA, they make parts available, it's easy to open.. this is all cool stuff. They actually care. I appreciate that. It's why I'll buy the 16" when it comes out and pay FULL PRICE for it. I just can't have a different standard for them than I have with Apple because I like them & they sent me a free one. Then I become the same as every other tech _"influencer"_

[@alexdrockhound9497]

The new stuff they showed off in the last LTT video really makes me want to get one. Theyre doing some seriously interesting stuff.

[@CreativityNull]

​@@rossmanngroup Next time when the issue becomes known maybe talk about it immediately. Other than that I don't think there were any problems here. The difference here is, like you pointed out and others have too, the broader picture of what framework is doing vs other manufacturers. That's where you can explain your more relaxed opinion on the issue being because of resources and response. Framework acknowledged the issue where others of much larger size typically do not. Framework suggested a fix where others of a larger size typically do not. Framework did not offer a replacement because it could be too costly a burden, where others of a larger size would avoid it even if they could afford the burden. You judged Framework as still performing well for the customer despite their lesser means, whereas many other companies that can afford to serve their customer better still serve them worse than framework does in many ways. If framework starts avoiding the correct answer because of greed and not because of means, I expect you will hold them to the fire. Same for Linus. You've been very fair, even when bad companies do good things (sometimes to a fault... Apple IRP) so I guess keep doing that and maybe report on problems like this sooner and I don't think anyone can rightfully blame you (even though they definitely will try to)

[@dealerofdeeth6043]

Thats probably why this response works as it does. Understanding that their customers at least are interested in being able to repair the laptop themselves, Giving a detailed guide to mitigate an issue that, if fix properly, would be difficult at best, it allows for them to continue forward providing what is overall still a very good product.

[@Maleko48]

having full access to all the settings in BIOS and lower level system controls and firmware is what will really sell me... I have had nothing but headaches and sour tastes left behind from the bs Dell and HP have pulled over the years with regards to locking consumers out of all the good BIOS settings, system hardware controller settings (ie. fan curves, temp limits, power limits), etc. (unfortunately, the only 2 laptops I've bought since 2011 BUT both still solid daily drivers used as desktop replacements so could be worse I guess)

[@willm.2271]

Holy cow, what an insanely reasonable solution to the problem lol.

[@rossmanngroup]

The compromise of allowing Oreo on the chair's arm, but not in the lap, is seen by many commenters as not only unreasonable, but pet abuse. I'm glad you disagree with them!

[@saulgoodman2018]

No it's not.

[@Digital-Dan]

I kind of like the "here's how to fix it" deal. I believe they used the big red wire for visibility in the picture. They could also, though, simply negotiate with one or more repair centers to take care of this for a reasonable price.

[@darrenfalconer3267]

They'd need to have one in every country. But wouldn't be a bad idea if they had some kind of repair partnership program for repair shops

[@LuLeBe]

The thing is, the major repair shops for smartphone and computer vendors that are available don't usually specialize in soldering bodge wires to PCBs. They simply swap components (batteries, camera modules, screens etc). Only smaller more specialized ships would do this stuff.

[@bradhaines3142]

im 100% preordering the 16inch. i know its effectively a beta product and there'll be some kinks they have to work out, but its worth it for the engineering alone

[@JohnDoe-nq4du]

It's early adopters such as yourself, who make it possible for such products to reach a stage where the more cautious folks such as myself can greatly benefit from them. Thank you for your service.

[@liamcollinson5695]

I kind of hope that the 16th inch gets a cooler master case like the 13inch laptop

[@Leonardo-G]

What's also nice is that any kinks caused by individual components (bad hinges, bad trackpad, whatever) can just be fixed by just buying that component again. Much better than being an early adopter for a non-modular laptop I'd say.

[@spdcrzy]

Hell, things basically get fixed so quickly (in the world of tech at least) that the early adopter tax won't really matter as much in the long run lol.

[@sskhussaini]

Thank you for your service, as the first person to reply said.

[@murixbob]

As others have said, AMD hasn't released the specs of the AMD Ryzen 7040 series of cpus yet so that's why Framework doesn't have it on the site yet.

[@delusionaldoctor]

The Ryzen 7040 series is simply the Ryzen 5 7640HS, Ryzen 7 7840HS and the Ryzen 9 7940HS cpus. It would be safe to assume that Framework are using the 7640HS and 7840HS CPUs as they have Ryzen 5 and 7 SKUs listed in the configurator. These CPUs and the specs were launched at CES.

[@delusionaldoctor]

Unless they are planning on using the 'U' series that utilize Zen 4, in that case the 7040U series or otherwise low power SKU Ryzen chips haven't been announced yet.

[@wingcommanderbob8268]

@@delusionaldoctor ... these will be U series chips.

[@peen2804]

@@delusionaldoctor you’re getting warmer!! take a wild guess if it’s the announced products or the unannounced products we’re talking about here… lmfao

[@73caddydaddy93]

The repair vs replace for the issue makes sense considering their ethos regarding reducing e-waste. That being said, they really should offer repair services to those who cannot get it repaired locally. I think it's great how forthcoming they are with the repair process, as opposed to with most other companies having to delve into page 5 of some obscure forum post to find some usable tidbit.

[@TheDeathmail]

The issue is that they aren't big enough for that... And most of their customer base know some tech... so following basic instructions shouldn't be an issue...

[@scheimong]

I give them a pass. It's a first generation product from a start-up with DIY in their genes. All things considered they've done an incredible job; small screw-ups are allowed in my book. I do subscribe to the "the world's not perfect" philosophy, and I think whatever they do short of a full recall (which, as you've covered, will likely sink them), people will always be demanding more. So in this sense, I actually love how they made it clear what they will and won't do: when they cannot do 100% and have to disappoint, at least they chose to do it up front instead of hiding behind legalese or making promises that they never intend to deliver. It's not the best PR, but in practise it saves so many people so much trouble.

[@overweightactor]

Get Oreo his own keyboard!

[@yungchop6332]

true

[@SUCHMISH]

Yes!

[@itsprivate3061]

yes a cat keyboard

[@MidlifeRenaissanceMan]

Cat doesn’t want its own keyboard. It wants _your_ keyboard

[@theghostofmaximumvolume3414]

Cat doesn't want a keyboard, it wants the mouse.

[@jp-ny2pd]

Live your best life Pooreo! Never let a Rossmann tell you your truth!

[@rossmanngroup]

You are something else.

[@ZleFox]

I have a problem with the said configurator. The keyboard and bezels are mandatory, but you have to add them for total of >$150. Just put them in the base price when you choose the processor. It makes for a better user experience when you have to add money just for customizations - different bezel colors or clear keyboard. Having bezels and keyboard is not "customizations". Customization is changing the default colors. It is better when you choose pre-build. It would make some sense if you can order DIY without bezels or keyboard, but you can't.

[@eDoc2020]

Even if you can order without bezel or keyboard I still think it would be better to have them included in the base price. Then there'd be a discount when you remove them from the order.

[@ciriousjoker]

If you buy from a new startup with a completely new strategy, you have to be a special kind of person to take the deal and you kind of know what you're getting into. The specific issue doesn't sound too bad to me so I would probably not care if it affected me. Also, the issue will go away once I would upgrade the Mainboard a couple years later or so.

[@asm_nop]

Framework is the first laptop I've seen that even uses a rechargeable RTC/CMOS battery. Every other I can ever recall was a CR-series single-use. It's a shame they didn't implement it right, but I'll still give them points for effort.

[@eDoc2020]

3-cell NiCd or NiMH used to be relatively common on older laptops. They (supposedly) can provide enough power to keep your RAM active while you swap batteries. I've never seen this feature actually work (maybe because those batteries are old AF now) and they have the downside that they can leak and cause damage.

[@brettd3206]

They most likely used the red wire to aid in visualization. I'm interested in the 16" when it becomes available.

[@elyes2703]

Yeah that's what i thought too

[@user-rn7xi4vc3c]

I have had this issue 3 or 4 times throughout the time I've had my framework (batch 3). Fortunately it's quite easily remedied (temporarily) with a secondary charger. I was burned by the issue pretty bad in one of those cases, so I carry a secondary charger in my laptop case now. I am mildly disappointed in this flaw, but I'm more than happy to support Framework into the future. Honestly, the laptop exceeded my expectations in the first place, but they deserve to be criticized for this. Maybe in the future they will provide a better remedy to this problem when (hopefully) they're ballin'.

[@ianlehman8342]

That reminds me of when my old thinkpad wouldn't boot one day at college, so I now bring a windows instal media in case windows decides to break itself. While its certainly not the solution, the fact that you can swap out a backup and spares like that is an immensely important QOL feature. Kinda like most cars having a spare wheel, while some have only a can of fix-a-flat and 12v pump in the interest of saving a minimal amount of weight or space

[@tjarsun]

I think another good step for this issue would be also giving users with that issue a big discount on a newer gen board if they want to. It means less financial impact for them, and the old board is good for an always plugged in desktop/htpc with their 3d printed case or the one they made with coolermaster. Sadly they are too small for being able to sustain a better solution, but I respect their willingness to do what they are able to.

[@LordWaterBottle]

This is not just a framework issue. I have an HP Envy x360 with a r7 2700u that also does not power on after the laptop battery has died because of clock battery not being charged. It also lets the CMOS reset so I always have to turn secure boot off again for linux to boot.

[@miguelguthridge]

Same here, I need to change all my bios settings each time my old laptop-gone-server loses power.

[@rossmanngroup]

my old t440 thinkpad did this sometimes too.

[@quandalemuncher2337]

Hmm interesting I have the same envy but with the 2500u and I havent experienced the same issue I also use Linux on it, its been fine for like the 4-5 years ive owned it.

[@nathanielhill8156]

Weird, do most RTC batteries not have the battery life to do this, my Lenovo G530 has been without the main battery for a while now and I've had no issues with the RTC when I last turned it on. I have had clock drift but the RTC had been running unattended for close to 6 months and was still within the hour

[@GSP-76]

​@@nathanielhill8156 That may be fine for home use laptops but when it's connected to a domain and has SSO services like Okta, your in for a world of hurt...your machine will get flagged and services you rely on daily stop working.

[@pcwarehouse8606]

16:26 - 17:30 Oreo slowly sneaks across Louise' lap.

[@rossmanngroup]

little fucker

[@DMSBrian24]

They just now announced the new gen, I think they're somehow legally prevented from sharing the specs just yet, but they will be posted in detail later when the laptop actually releases/is close to a release. They did say in the LTT video that they cannot really say a lot of things just yet.

[@mpontice]

Typing this on a 12th gen and I really love it. I've messed around with a ton of weird, new laptop projects, and this, in contrast, is a very solid product. Totally understand the criticism, and I agree that they can/will keep getting better. Will continue buying Framework products.

[@ediartiva]

*As you described how Oreo taps your keyboard and ends the streams,* Oreo nudged his paws toward the keyboard. Typical cat. 😺

[@rossmanngroup]

Oreo is a hellraiser.

[@quangvasot]

3:01 small mistake, wouldn't you mean "Even if the laptop battery is *not* dead"?

[@rossmanngroup]

doh

[@samuelpalacios5253]

The sheer amount of technical names of products you mention so consecutively and so fast is amazing. I can't keep up

[@tayw6466]

hey dude, i have been watching vids from you for a long time and I think what you do is super important, not only for the outcome that can be achieved but for the example you provide for young people on how to stand up for your beliefs and how to live your principles, I wish I could be of assistance in some way, its kind of frustrating sitting on the sideline and hearing about all the shit they put you through and knowing I cant do anything about it, but I do have confidence in your mission and your capability and I hope one day I get to watch the "I won" video, what a day that would be. Good luck and stay safe.

[@Sotanaht01]

Judging from the LTT video the other day, I'm guessing Framework isn't ready to release specs on their new line of laptops, that's why the information is missing from the pages. Looks really odd how they are doing it though

[@Jan-xf8sk]

probably Framework is under NDA with their chip partners

[@nohs8776]

yeah, the amd 7040U that's p gonna be in these laptops haven't been announced at all

[@Dudewitbow]

It's because the U version of the chips(which would be the counter part to the P intel chips) aren't officially released and fully specced to the public yet, hence the probable NDA.

[@Sotanaht01]

@@Dudewitbow But they could put a TBA or something instead of leaving everything blank?

[@Dudewitbow]

@@Sotanaht01 not saying I agree with what Framework is doing, I just understand why its blank as of the current moment. I do agree that it should be a TBA.

[@MonkeyJedi99]

It is possible that they used that fat wire for the example rework because it is more visible.

[@SeanMMcCormack]

Louis. WOW - you validated the very issue I've been dealing with (Framework) since day one... I was just ignorant of the facts. All I knew was I could not get my laptop to boot reliably. They sent me to replacement mainboards (long story) but now you have educated me on the root cause of this issue. I have sent Framework an email to express my hopes they can rectify this (if possible) for my existing laptop (now out of warranty). thanks much

[@c99kfm]

That 16 inch Framework looks sweet. Nice big screen, possible to configure without numpad, Ryzen 7040/Phoenix Point with up to 780M graphics and Framework's usual well-documented modularity. As long as the price doesn't go through the roof, I'm very interested.

[@erikjohnson1305]

The RTC problem with frameworks, I think Dell has the same issue. I never knew what was causing it or cared enough to look it up, but it would be really annoying. I'd try to turn the laptop on after a while of storing it and it wouldn't power on, which you'd kind of expect from a laptop being dormant for a month. The frustrating part is when I plug it in and turn it on, it always still has like 70% remaining.

[@alexatkin]

That's interesting, as it makes you wonder if they followed an existing design implementation example that was flawed.

[@YoungKupus]

Can confirm, my Dell XPS has this issue. But not only that, when battery completely discharges BIOS settings would reset which is highly annoying when you have Linux installed and have to turn off secure boot.

[@ClarksonNo1]

I mean to me this seems like such a minor flaw. Like It's just common sense before you rely on something with a battery you make sure it has charge and plug it in.

[@erikjohnson1305]

@@ClarksonNo1 thing is it DOES have a charge, but it wants me to plug it in anyways or it's not working

[@ClarksonNo1]

@@erikjohnson1305 Well one part of it doesn't have a charge. So plug it the fuck in more than once in 3 months.

[@kurtnelle]

Funny, I have this exact problem with my framework laptop. From what I understand the problem is in combination with a flaw in the Intel Processor, and it doesn't always occur. The stars have to basically align for a person to experience this on a reliable basis (from what I read) and Intel has already fixed the problem on their end with the 12th Gen Processor. The alternative of having to plug my device in once a week doesn't seem like to big of a deal for me... especially when it is totally possible get the laptop back up and running even when this flaw is encountered. Its not like it bricks it permanently.

[@violin-schwerin]

perfectly fair assessment. I had an issue with USB etc on my 11gen framework, which they fixed - after some unsuccessful back and forth with support - by sending over a replacement motherboard. swap done in 10 min, excellent

[@TSUNAMI17]

I didn't know about this issue. Thank you for bringing it up.

[@siggyincr7447]

Interesting to see that they are coming out with a 16" version. The idea behind the company appeals to me, but I need a decent screen and keyboard sized to be used as a desktop replacement that has enough graphics capacity to handle running a second HD monitor. The 13" version was never gonna work for me. I'll have to check them out when I'm ready to retire my current laptop.

[@surferdude4487]

Personally, I don't care if the screen is a postage-stamp sized potato because I'm blind. But what I do care about is having 6 I/O card slots and a full-sized keyboard with a number pad. I'm glad they decided to release a 16" model.

[@honkhonk8009]

What alot of people do, is have their laptop be as compact and portable as possible, but when they get home, they use it as basically a drop in tower. You just need to connect the USB-C cable to a hub, and it shoudl stream HDMI along with the keyboard stuff, the extra storage, and even a GPU if u want. Thats what my dad does. Works well for him. You dont need a 16" at all. You just need the 13" and an extra monitor + keyboard + mouse.

[@sherwoodlikesomecheese]

​@@honkhonk8009unfortunately if you need a discrete GPU you're limited to the 16" model. For now at least

[@parabolicpanorama]

@@honkhonk8009 it depends on the kind of work you do. doing programming on 13 inch screens with tiny ass keyboards is painful and horribly inefficient.

[@honkhonk8009]

@@parabolicpanorama idk just move that shit closer to your head then lmfao. 13inch works fine for programming. Ion understand the people who act like they need a numpad and shit lol

[@edwardecl]

Or maybe framework should hire someone like you to do the repairs as a bulk offer. If someone was doing this all day they could get pretty quick at it.

[@rossmanngroup]

I'm too expensive. They can get someone cheaper in house. I'd even train the person for them.

[@thesantadestroyer]

boo go back to Anor Londo

[@RemcoStoutjesdijk]

@@rossmanngroup How about Paul and the rest in NYC?

[@randomdeliveryguy]

@@rossmanngroup I wish my wife said that to me.

[@thelegendaryklobb2879]

@@randomdeliveryguy Lol

[@rest-today]

Thanks for the insights! Was looking at Framework thru rose colored glasses!

[@michaelreyes9997]

Thanks Luis, keep up the good work!

[@3nertia]

I think that videos like this are important because Framework needs to be aware of why they get the leeway that they do and they need to understand that once they're actually a viable company, this sort of leeway will cease. It would be clever (and intriguing) to hear Framework's response to this video at any rate Businesses have a really bad habit of flipping the script once they have enough customer loyalty so we have a right to be cautious; it's always a psy-op and we need to be cautious!

[@lisat9707]

Your right about the flippin bit but in this case I think Linus would have words to say if they pulled something like what you're saying. I have little doubt about that.

[@Underground3]

Since Linus is a investor to them and have the most leverage at the moment until another investor top him. I doubt they can risk flipping the script toward their loyal customer base and lose all that good will. However that my minimum knowledge of Framework investment.

[@3nertia]

@@lisat9707 That is why he's probably their most important investor - we trust Linus and, by extension, those he chooses to work with

[@3nertia]

@@Underground3 Agreed

[@skii_two]

good kitty sabotage

[@disappear1234]

Apple hired him

[@skii_two]

@@disappear1234 he would like to have some more robust conversations

[@rossmanngroup]

He's not getting to the spacebar again.

[@random_bit]

Damn had no idea about the RTC boot issue. thanks for raising this as a concern to look out for, was actually checking out a framework for my SO yesterday.

[@gabrielfair724]

I think many people haven't yet reached Louis' level of enlightenment yet regarding biases. Everyone is biased. But it's the job of the educated to always strive to be aware of these biases and then adjust accordingly to account for them. This is what it means to think critically. This is how we can be fair and balanced. Don't be scared of being called a racist. Be scared of being one, and not having anyone tell you.

[@drew_echo]

Press Ctrl+F twice. This is Discourse's (forum software) way of allowing you to use the default search. I also find it annoying :)

[@FourOf92000]

another matter that mitigates it-as in _mitigates,_ not fully excuses-is that Framework gave detailed repair instructions themselves. Apple would have just said "yeah, we can fix that, hand over your last paycheck. Can't afford that? Cool, bye"

[@rossmanngroup]

Apple would gaslight you and tell you the computer is actually on or some shit

[@leonro]

@@rossmanngroup or more like: "sorry lol, water damage went blublublu"

[@liammckenna1479]

Good video, and good discussion of solutions

[@notimportant7682]

Oof, first time hearing that my framework has this defect, must have missed the commotion. Glad I learned about it here before I faced the issue myself. And as someone who was prepared to face issues with first gen hardware, the fact that this issue does not affect the motherboard if it is run as a standalone module on ac power does have me considering upgrading early and turning the old mainboard into a home server and/or a media center.

[@ChristophHoward]

Great to hear your thoughts on this!

[@RottenFishbone]

I also hate the search, but you can press ctrl+f again and it'll use the browser's search. It says that under the search input. I think they should have just not done it, but there is a workaround.

[@NicolasTsagarides]

The issue is that your browser can only search what is currently loaded in the view. The forum software loads and unloads parts of the thread according to where the scroll view is. This unfortunately makes the forum find feature the only viable solution.

[@RottenFishbone]

@@NicolasTsagarides Oh wow. Well that's fair enough.

[@RolandKontson]

Tip: for many sites including the one shown that use the Ctrl+F shortcut, you can enter the shortcut a second time to use the Chrome's search instead.

[@johndododoe1411]

Chrome is malware, avoid it and get a good independent browser that isn't heavily based on Chrome. So a heavily modified Firefox is the remaining option after the Microsoft and Opera teams have switched to repackaging Chrome with a different logo .

[@b4ttlemast0r]

I haven't seen any company, especially one this small, that would recall an entire product line because of some design flaw like this, no product is perfect, it's always gonna have some design flaw, if the product was straight up not working they would of course take it back. I think it's admirable that they give you detailed instructions to fix it yourself, not many companies would do that.

[@Tekzel]

Yes, this is a design flaw. One that has been fixed in newer models. However, people are making a huge deal out of a minor issue. This is NOT a recallable issue. This is a minor annoyance at best. Plus they gave you detailed instructions for how to fix it if you are so inclined. I just don't understand all the whining about this.

[@--_DJ_--]

People love a good witch hunt.

[@bvoyelr]

I tend to agree. I deal with weird "laptop crap" all the time with every laptop I've had. There's no chance I could ever get any of it resolved by the manufacturer. Just have to work with what we've got.

[@KaletheQuick]

I convinced the whole nonprofit I was IT for to switch to frameworks. This was the main issue that got them all traded in for $500 best buy specials.

[@b0rd3n]

@@KaletheQuick Ouch..

[@alexatkin]

If leaving your PC in your bag for a few days can result in it being unusable, it absolutely IS a recallable issue. Plus it can damage the battery as they are not designed to deep discharge.

[@CreativityNull]

Another difference here is that Apple wouldn't even publish the hacky fix. Hell they wouldn't even acknowledge the problem (flexgate). I think at the very least Framework could offer some kind of rebate upon request to help a verified affected customer pay for the work, or at least give some kind of compensation for dealing with the issue.😅

[@rossmanngroup]

Apple would pretend it didn't exist and gaslight you until the end of time.

[@33gles]

Apple would blame you, and try to de-business any shop you took it to for the fix.

[@yonkocommander5531]

As good as Framework is right now it's not perfect and this constructive criticism can definitely help them in the future, well done!

[@yash1152]

one things is for sure, i am liking the new thumbnails. the big text in thumbnail, and plenty of whitespace is very much welcome by my brain. the gradienty background also has not jarring colors.

[@kyleshockley1573]

I too enjoyed watching the historical and ever-shifting battle lines of Stalingrad reenacted in cat form.

[@50shadesofbeige88]

Should Framework fix this issue for their users? Yes. However, I'm not sure that they're able. It seemed pretty clear to me when FW first came into the limelight, that they were still in the process of developing their products. I'd consider this an early adopter problem. Most tech enthusiasts should be able to fix this on their own, or at least with some guidance. That being said, they could at least offer a substantial discount on a next gen board of your choosing as compensation.

[@alexatkin]

As much as I want them to succeed, if they aren't in a state they can fix issues that effectively brick the laptop, they're not a viable business. If I had this problem with my own laptop I would absolutely be demanding it fixing or a refund and legally they are required to deal with it as its not fit for purpose. The size of the business is irrelevant, they have responsibilities that the product they sold doesn't kill itself.

[@_--_--_]

@@alexatkin Its not really bricking the laptop though. Its only an issue if you leave the laptop turned off for multiple weeks or months and try to turn it back on, the only thing you have to do is connect it to a charger for 10 seconds for the RTC circuitry to get power to be able to turn the laptop back on. Sure this is a deal breaker for some use cases and certainly an annoying behaviour, but calling it bricking the laptop is in my opinion a bit exaggerated, also considering this isnt an uncommon issue, for example Dell had this issue for years on some of their laptops and other major brands too, the only difference is that Framework acknowledged the issue whereas the other brands pretend it doesnt exist.

[@GhiveciuMarian]

WOW, the transation, the magic at 10:45 amazing! :) who ever edited the video, congrats, seamless transition , the poor cat!

[@RolandKontson]

In a recent Linus video, I liked that you can move and add keyboard/trackpad on the larger laptop, adding a numpad on one of the sides, can move the keyboard over.

[@gildedlink]

Which distro do you use Resolve on? I've wanted to try it out but it has some issues with my present distro and package conflicts, and it'd be nice to know what seems to be stable with Resolve

[@rossmanngroup]

it works with ubuntu or debian fine

[@YounesLayachi]

@@rossmanngroup have you tried Nobara linux ? it is geared towards the video recording/editing usecase, with tweaks and dependencies to make OBS, davinci resolve, etc work out of the box :D

[@rossmanngroup]

No, and I never will. Changing distros every 2 weeks is for the birds.

[@YounesLayachi]

@@rossmanngroup oh I'm not a distrohopper either, it's a waste of time. But Debian, imo, has no future. Nobara is based on Fedora and made by Glorious Eggroll (you might have heard of GE-Proton). You can probably gauge the quality of the project just from looking at the website. His usecase is precisely streaming, encoding, video editing, and playing graphically demanding video games. Most of the Linux world is allergic to these usecases and so the roadblocks have been piling up. I find the problem is that most distro maintainers have 0 interest in usecases such as video editing or playing graphically demanding games. Especially since many are attached to and still using very old hardware (10 years old). And if you want to use recent hardware, especially AMD, then having a very recent kernel and packages is important, which Debian does not provide. This is Windows's last bastion. A ton of young adults are turned off by Linux just because they can't play games or edit videos on it. Serious efforts like Nobara are a step in the right direction.

[@therobberpanda]

Staying untill 2AM for me as an european finally paid off. Great work as always Louis ;)

[@ontarioblue1994]

Great work Louis

[@Paul29Esx]

The way the cat slowly moves onto your lap through the video makes me smile!

[@Adam-ws5mk]

10:43 Lmaoo, for a second i thought the cat calm down, but i guess it fooled both of us

[@rossmanngroup]

He's a sneaky little bastard.

[@kozmaz87]

They have a rechargable RTC battery? HUH? What happened to the trusty old CR2032?

[@threepe0]

Really well explained and thought out. You changed my mind here. Something I have to think about here is guitar amp modifiers and old school electronics experts like yourself Louis. All the politics and liability aside, if framework or Apple provide a solution that an electronics guy can address as opposed to landfilling and providing no solution, I have to think of this as a win for everyone. There is more of a reason for experts like yourself to exist, which is great for so many reasons

[@williameldridge9382]

On top of that it's not a product safety issue. The product functions just fine, this is just a design flaw, and they are under no obligation to fix it or even address it other than to say, "We know about this now, it won't exist in future iterations." Expecting anything more than that is just nonsense and entitlement.

[@NickNackGus]

My understanding about the lack of info on the AMD Framework laptop is that AMD isn't allowing them to release info on the 7040 series processors until that info is officially released in April - but there could be a misunderstanding about that on my end, or on Framework's end.

[@JamesHalfHorse]

It might be something at least as a repair shop I would be willing to tackle for the few people in my area that might have one. It seems like framework is building itself on repairability and upgradability they (I assume) have exhausted all options to fix it in software so here you go guys you can upgrade or here is how you can fix it yourself or have someone (like me) who is handy with an iron do it for you. Maybe offer a discounted upgrade or an advanced board swap option could be a win but it's better than apple giving you the finger after you buy and yeah I am typing this on a mac.

[@b0rd3n]

Which half of you is horse? hehhe. Just a fun thought brother, not harm intended

[@JamesHalfHorse]

@@b0rd3n Depends on who you ask.

[@b0rd3n]

@@JamesHalfHorse I figured as much, hahha. Take care brother!

[@JamesHalfHorse]

@@b0rd3n 🐴

[@punditgi]

Good luck with Oreo! 😂❤

[@OrafuDa]

As you may know, Oreo likes to use (or sit on) your keyboard because it’s the thing you use. Not sure if she can stop doing it. But to fix this, and not sure if this works for you, maybe try using an acrylic “bridge” over the keyboard, for the cat to sit on. (To give you an impression, something like the “L&QQ Clear Acrylic Keyboard Cover Protector”.)

[@BrianWardPlus]

Why not get Oreo her own little tiny keyboard (re: TikTok video about cats mirroring their humans)? Then she can pretend she's streaming too. ;)

[@briancollins7296]

might also try a little heating pad on the armrest you want your cats on

[@yash1152]

2:22 that scroll bar is actually helpful - just mentioning the opposite side to level things.

[@luketurner314]

9:56 "in an ideal world that would happen, but we don't live in an ideal world" I wish more CEOs comprehended that fact of reality

[@e2298sg]

Just FYI, you can hit f3 to use your browser's search function instead of the forum's

[@daviddemmers130]

I have a huge bias for framework also, I even watched the keynote live in the bus ride home back from work. That evening I ran into the same problems your describing with their website, the expansion of products and options also removed Already in place information. Such as the dimensions of the 13 inch, I was interested as I wanted to compare it with the size of a different 16 inch. When available I want to buy the 16 inch framework, for performance/size and gpu reasons. But that information has been removed from the site which has been annoying. Your point on having a return program for some tech to fix it (including some price premium maybe) seems like a great way for them to reach out beyond just showing the fix.(which is in this market already rather nice)

[@1sttimelurker595]

love that after 15 minutes the cat has gotten half of Louis' lap. Well played!

[@mskiptr]

What do you think about the Open Source Hardware Association and their certifications? Imo it makes quite clear which products actually share schematics, make all the firmware available, work with Free and open source software, and so on. The biggest issue I see is that that OSHWA list contains mostly hobbyist devices and some 3d-printed contraptions. (MNT Reform applied and passed, so there's that)

[@paulie-g]

There's exactly zero chance of an x86-64 machine being able to pass. I'm a big fan of the push for open hardware, but we currently have several serious blockers that I'm not sure how we overcome. Possibly once RISC-V gets to desktop-class performance and we miraculously get DDR4/5 controllers with no blobs.. then we'd still be stuck with GPU blobs, but the rest would be clean.

[@newnuu6448]

That's an interesting design choice, I've never heard of a rechargeable CMOS batt before.

[@NoProHarrie]

Fair and ballanced take as usual!

[@GiGaSzS]

I appreciate that they have published the fix on the website. Since RTC battery drain is not a catastrophic bug/design flaw I do not thing they are obliged to replace the older boards. Such issues are present in all devices, but not at the same level, for example my laptop has many USBC ports but they do not all detect my docking station. It is annoying and I wish companies would polish their devices better instead of redesigning models every year and introducing different problems.

[@mws3779]

I feel your pain, cats can be jerks at times but that's why we love them 😊but I can see Oreo is looking for an opening.

[@AkxeOne]

Framework is a specific company. The solution they should do is to ship repaired component to anyone who asks (for a refundable fee, that is returned when the broken part is sent back). This way all of theirs 11gen boards could be fixed and the money cost would be minimal for them

[@bbrainstormer2036]

That would still require a lot of less technically inclined users to learn how to solder

[@williamlillsebbas3365]

@@bbrainstormer2036 Adam’s proposal is that framework would take a fee and send users a new updated/fixed main board, then when they swap over their ram/storage they can send back their old board and get their fee back.

[@AkxeOne]

@@Bramble20322 It could simply take some time to fix... this issue does not require to be fixed ASAP. I could see myself waiting a few months for the fix...

[@AkxeOne]

@@williamlillsebbas3365 Thanks! You summed it up perfectly!

[@donovan6320]

​@@AkxeOne that would also cost them quite a bit anyway. At that point the problem becomes disposing of the old board, which when talking about framework's stance on reusability and modularity is kind of a big deal

[@dannymac653]

All good points!

[@A2000MHz]

I would gladly take on doing these repairs!

[@angryparrot]

Oh my god. I had this issue. I wasn't aware that it was so widespread. Now I've gone through TWO replacement motherboard that each had independent unrelated defects (one had a non-working usb port, the other the audio chipset was completely fucked). I like framework, but their refurb quality control is ASS. Apparently I was talking to support before this issue was well-known. Since I've had so many issues with the motherboard replacements, they're treating my entire machine as an RMA. Maybe I'll get lucky and they'll just throw a 12th gen in there and I won't have to modify my board when I get it back so that it turns on when I want it.

[@DragonProtector]

sounds about normal for today every day company.

[@jabezhane]

You never thought to look on the Website forum? We've been going on about it for months. Got stonewalled for ages.

[@brianfritz575]

Louis, I think Framework's approach to this problem, is quite good. Even if Framework hires someone to do this, paying for shipping, cost of insurance for shipping, as well as not having the system for a week, is quite a large cost. The cost of getting this done by a third party electronics repair shop... I think $50 for this is fair, as no troubleshooting skill is needed, this is just a straight soldering rework job. In the end, I am happier to pay $50, just for the convenience of getting this done and having my system back in an hour or two. Framework is promoting these laptops as more of a DIY approach, so with publishing the info for customers, I think they are doing something none of their competitors would never do! Framework is even interested in providing schematics, which their competitors would never do. So, I would be happy to take this little hit. Of course I'm also a retired EE, and on the bench sitting next to me I have a Metcal Iron, Oscilloscope, Power Supply 6.5 digit DMM, as well as multiple handheld DMMs, so I could do this work in likely 15 minutes of work on my own system. So the promise of being able to do such things on my own in the future, is an even better solution by Framework. So, I will be likely to purchase a system from Framework for my next portable!

[@-__-_-_--__--_-__-_____--_-___]

offering the fix at Rossmann Repair seems like a good way to capitalize on this video 13:33 charge market rate! I feel like a lot of framework buyers would be happy to pay a premium to not have to do it themselves

[@Krueger444]

Honestly, I'm happy with the 'patch' solution. I would be hesitant to recommend this at the enterprise level, but this is the repairability of yesteryear I want from RTR. It's also worth noting that you can buy a new mainboard from the vendor - its a 500-1000 dollar expense (maybe a significant discount should be available to affected users). I don't yet have a framework laptop, but I'm looking at the prices, and I think I'm actually going to buy one of the affected boards to save a few bucks.

[@williameldridge9382]

I disagree on the discount (perhaps a trade-in option) a design flaw is just that. You don't get a discount on your next car because of some design flaw. As long as the car functions as designed, you have that car. This isn't a safety issue and thus shouldn't be subject to such things.

[@johnfrancis4748]

I just built a framework 12th gen over the weekend. Wish it had a better gpu and touchscreen. Besides that seems great so far

[@Mistarnova]

Dell's latitude business models from the 7410 2 in 1's and newer have a similar issue where the Dell machines dont even have a RTC battery and if the main battery dies, it acts like its having no post issues until it has enough charge to actually power the computer. As the place I work is a Dell house all the end users make my life a pain in the ass lol

[@Heeby-Jeebies]

I have a lot of admiration for Framework, and am glad they're open to constructive criticism.

[@UndefinedStasis]

Thats a great take. As an early adopter of any product, you should expect some flaws along the way; goes for every industry. That's why there's a saying that you should never by the first model year of any new vehicle line; let them figure out the kinks first. For me personally, this issue would be small. Expecting a startup to recall the vast majority of their products is asking way too much. Now having a guy in-house who's sole job is addressing this issue for the probably sub 10% of people who are willing to not have their laptop for a week or so. They'd more likely just buy a power brick, be more mindful of outlet locations or just buy a 12th gen board. This is one main reason I have yet to buy one, I don't want to be an early stuck with small issues. That and I have a fairly new laptop hp spectre x360 already. Framework will be my next laptop if they're still around in ~3 years