Let`s talk! Do you like how music harmony and counterpoint are taught today? Tips for beginners?

[@SteveAbrahall]

OK so I love Bach, but the fact that he is the beginning the middle and the end of so much music theory is sad. It's like Shakespeare being the only thing worth learning in the English department - what about other writers! What about other composers and styles, why not start somewhere else? I was lucky in that when I studied composition in our first 2 years we had a lot of freedom - but I think that one of the reasons I never finished my composition degree was - by the end of 3 years all the 3 rd year composers sounded the same (the 1 st years compositions sounded better!) ! I came to the realization that our institution was a meat grinder. I think you touched on something with regards learning and ways of learning.

[@IoannaMoudanioti]

Thank you so much for sharing here! Wow what you said triggered something in me! - You said after those years all graduated composers sounded like the same. Yes, that is what I tend to see as well. And you are right! Bach was/is a master teacher, but it cannot be that he was the only one. I am curious what other talented geniuses got lost back then... By the way, what do you think about the label `contemporary music`? There are so many rules one should follow so that they stay `modern`. I find that a very awkward concept. I understand that it is time for composers to get innovative, but that does not feel like the right way for me. Want do you think?

[@SteveAbrahall]

@@IoannaMoudanioti So when I was at school one of my composition teachers was a pupil of Stockhausen. So I suppose you have to ask the question what is “`contemporary music” I think Stockhausen was one extreme but I also think about the famous minimalists composers. I think some of their work will persist. I think electronic music is interesting but for me personally (as an ex - but may be one day soon re activated Double bass player and composer.. I’m nearing retirement) I think that live acoustic music in small medium size venues is the way forward - I understand that a lot of contemporary music was and is a reaction to the rigidity of classical education and politically and socially influenced. Some of it will survive. I like the work of the “kronos string quartet” for example and in fact think of them as a great bridge between contemporary and classical music. If we get back to writing music and enjoying it as part of a social space - I think there is tremendous opportunity with this approach. With the advent of AI and robotics I think that we will need to have a renaissance of creativity - a lot like the chess community, it has just exponentially exploded. And as one of my music teachers once said, intelligent people need intelligent hobbies. I think we just need to get a bit of social media - some students and semi professionals and may be some professionals to sort of come up with a way of creating community, finding sponsorship - may be a bit of youtube! I can see it may be possible to be a classically trained musician and that other options, other than the few traditionally available (orchestral, soloist etc) you might call it “The gig” approach but it could be kinder, more sustainable and better for a lot of people. Anyway I hope the above makes some sense! Steve PS With regards harmony and counterpoint also melody I think that an understanding of world music may be a useful part of future music education. Things like the melodic and rhythmic structures of Indian music, the 3 Dimensional aspect of African drumming and vocal tonality (read Chernoff "African rhythm and African sensibility"… an amazing book) I’m also personally discovering the incredible melodic work of Vincenzo Bellini… I think the important lesson from all these other influences for me is to create you own music - system? Style? Not just Bach! You know what if each of those composition students went and studied some long lost composer and used that knowledge, instead of them all sounding the same?

[@IoannaMoudanioti]

​@@SteveAbrahall Thank you so much!! I need to sit on it because you gave some great ideas that resonate a lot! Also, you made me think in different ways and be more compassionate to contemporary music... And I am now even more intrigued about the undiscovered musical thesauruses out there! I ll check the books you mentioned! I believe we need to start with a community of creative minds (professional-level musicians, and artists) who are willing to support each other to flourish. Do you have any ideas on how to start organically creating this community? It would be great if it would be worldwide so that no one feels geographically limited. ---If this would be a geographical place to start in the world, where would you start? ---If it is an online location where would you start as well? The purpose is to get to know people, see if there is a compatibility of style and artisanship, and then we need to share efforts for brainstorming new ideas and concerts as well as organizing things, etc. Thank you so much! I appreciated your answer and sharing it here. Have a good weekend! -------------------------------------- PS: One needs to be very strategic being an Artist to succeed financially. We all need to make a living... and a comfortable living I may add! Being an artist is a very demanding type of work on our spirit and bodies.. Very tiring work! And very incredible too!--- I have seen too many amazing pianists having to do another job because of a lack of business skills and tactical thinking or saw them burn out.... I do not like marketing myself.. but one has to do it...find joy in it.. (Maybe in the new community, there is someone else who we can trust and they can do it for us- we have to make sure that everyone's work will be compensated and that we are all happy to work)

[@LucidLyles]

Good content thank you!

[@IoannaMoudanioti]

thank you! 🙏😊

[@omiros-jg1oo]

Thank you what you said helped me a lot! Where is the beautiful ukulele 😀

[@IoannaMoudanioti]

Glad it was helpful!🙏

[@RobinJWheeler]

I always wanted to compose but going from learning harmony to actually making music from it seemed like an impossible gap. It felt lile people who wrote music had a natural knack for it that I could never have. Then I found out none of the baroque, classical or romantic composers thought about modern harmony when they played. They thought in thorough bass. Learning historical improvisation has bridged the gap between theoretical concepts and intuitive playing.

[@RobinJWheeler]

I think learning harmony is only useful if taught in the same way the composers thought about it. It also needs to be taught practically with deep understanding of simple bass motions so that the student could improvise endless 'correct' simple figuration preludes.

[@IoannaMoudanioti]

@@RobinJWheeler Thank you so much for sharing here! I thought the same with you... The composers did not think of those rules that way... At some level maybe, because they referred to the compositional styles of other composers, but I bet it did not feel as rigid as today's harmony class. It would be great to know how composers felt through the composition process! What do you mean by historical improvisation? Improv in general is a nice skill to have for every musician, but composing is something else. For me, I hear the melody in my brain and then I have to write it down. I can improvise too, but that is another feeling.

[@RobinJWheeler]

@@IoannaMoudanioti The channel 'Cedarville music' has lectures posted where he explains the general history and thought process. The channel 'En blanc et noir' Has in depth breakdowns of a lot of concepts. The book 'Harmony, Counterpoint & Partimento.' Is the best resource I've seen for training the right kind of thinking, which is in distinct voices that move in relation to each other. My goal with improvising is to get it as close to real time composition as possible. Just pulling ideas from a bag of harmonic and textural techniques that I have practiced.

[@ioannamoud]

@@RobinJWheeler thank you so much! I followed the channels right now and check the book! I am so happy that there is actual information about it out there.

[@OldCanadianguy953]

Sadly (speaking as a mature piano student of over 6 years now) I think it’s a lost cause in this generation of tiktok cellphone addicts who have the attention span of a goldfish and are unable to think beyond their phone.

[@IoannaMoudanioti]

Thank you for sharing here! I think it is important to change things we do not like. I am so surprised about how many people care to change the situation these days. That gives me hope and I have the conviction that things can change.