LET'S TALK OLD GUNS

[@randyadams03]

"Gun Jesus" (Ian) will be heart broken if he misses French Guns of The American Revolution. Tennessee here

[@louisianagray8618]

Enjoyed the conversation Garrett thanks and yes if a gun doesn't have wood I really don't have a use for it

[@Real11BangBang]

lol %100

[@JustinJ-w5e]

Hello Garret, I unfortunately joined late for the last session and I heard someone talking about the Vetterli Rifle. Below I have list of the majority of the adopted military arms from the foreign countries so that you can compare them to the U.S. trapdoor. I will say some of them are a bit better than the trapdoor, while others are much more problematic. I will link the website, general information, catridge muzzle velocity, caliber, and rarity for each of the below mentioned military arms. 1. Imperial Russia: Model of 1857/69 Krnka Rifle (Пехотная Винтовка Крнка́ 1869)(Conversion rifle) Catridge: 15.24 x 41mm, or .6 caliber Russian liniya Muzzle Velocity: 350 meters / sec or 1150ft / sec(quite slow) Video Showcasing one: kzbin.info/www/bejne/rJuWl6CnZdCkZ5I&ab_channel=%D0%9F%D0%BE%D1%87%D1%83%D0%B2%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B2%D1%83%D0%B9%D0%9E%D1%80%D1%83%D0%B6%D0%B8%D0%B5GUNSROOM Rarity: Very Rare in the United States History: kzbin.info/www/bejne/mnXJqmiuoqxliK8&ab_channel=MosinMuseum Model of 1856/69 Albini Baranov (For the Russian Navy) орострельная винтовка системы лейтенанта Баранова Cartridge: Same cartridge as the krnka Muzzle Velocity: Same velocity as the Krnka Rarity: Extremely Rare (only about 10k ever made), most of them destroyed History: www.militaryrifles.com/russia/baranov Karle Needle Rifle Cartridge: A paper cartridge, unknown details Muzzle Velocity: I would infer that it is the same chassepot History: en.topwar.ru/178711-i-zhille-i-terri-i-karle.html Video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/eH_WqGVrra-YidE&ab_channel=PoppaSquat Rarity: Extremely Rare (215 ever made) Berdan l and Berdan ll (Pekhotniya vintovka Berdana obr. 1870g or 1868g) Cartridge: 42 Russian, or 10.75 x 58 mm paper patched bullet loaded with 77 grains of black powder Muzzle velocity: 1444 ft / sec (better than the trapdoor) History: www.militaryrifles.com/russia/berdan2 www.militaryrifles.com/russia/berdan1 Rarity: rare for the Berdan ll and extremely rare for the Berdan l 2. French Empire Chassepot Needle Rifle of 1866 Cartridge: 11mm paper cartridge loaded with a 386 grain heavy lead bullet Muzzle Velocity: 435 meters / sec History: kzbin.info/www/bejne/Y4LXo3t5abGSbqM&ab_channel=ForgottenWeapons Rarity: Quite common 1854/69 Tabatiere System (Conversion) Cartridge: 17.8 mm x 35 R Muzzle Velocity: around 950 feet / sec (quite slow) History: www.militaryrifles.com/france/tabatierenew Shooting video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/fIq4kmeNhdmApKc&ab_channel=GuyandLeonardA-R-West Rarity: Rare Gras Rifle Model 1874 Catridge: (11mm x 59 R) Muzzle Velocity: 1450 ft / sec (Better than the trapdoor) History: www.militaryrifles.com/france/gras Rarity: Very Common Lebel 1886 (Smokeless) Cartridge: 8mm Lebel Muzzle Velocity: 2400 ft / sec Magazine Capacity: 10 rounds fully loaded Rarity: Very Common 3. German Empire Lindner Podewell Conversion Rifle (Bavarians) (Single Shot) Cartridge: (13.9 mm or .54 caliber) Muzzle Velocity: Unknown, I will assume that it is around 1250 ft / sec Rarity: Very Rare Shooting Video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/qHuVqphrZ5d_hsU&ab_channel=GuyandLeonardA-R-West Bavarian Model 1869 Werder Rifle (Single shot) Catridge: 11mm x 50 R Muzzle Velocity: Around 1465 feet / sec (Better than trapdoor) Rarity: Very Rare History: www.militaryrifles.com/bavaria/werder Shooting Video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/eX26mIOEe6lnmc0&ab_channel=BlokeontheRange German Mauser 1871 Rifle Cartridge: 11mm x 60 R Muzzle Velocity: Around 1420 feet / sec (Still a tiny bit better than trapdoor) History: www.militaryrifles.com/germany/mauser1871 Shooting Video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/jInCemx4r92bh8k&ab_channel=C%26Rsenal Rarity: Quite Common German Mauser 71/84 Repeating Rifle (8 shots tubular magazine) Catridge: Same as before Muzzle Velocity: Same as before Shooting Video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/aaSwfH-mpK9jn5Y&ab_channel=C%26Rsenal Rarity: Common 4. Serbia Mauser Model of 1880 (Single Shot) or Mauser Koka Milavanovic Cartridge: Chambered for a 10.15 Caliber Cartridge Muzzle Velocity: 1680 feet / sec (Much better than trapdoor) History: www.militaryrifles.com/mausermilovanovic Rarity: Very Rare 5. Kingdom Of Italy Italian Single Shot Vetterli Modello 1870 ((Fucile da Fanteria mod.1870 Vetterli)) Rarity: Extremely Rare Cartridge: 10.4 mm Vetterli Cartridge, 11mm longer than the swiss vetterli cartridge Muzzle Velocity: Around 1400 ft / sec History: www.militaryrifles.com/italy/vetterli Italian Carcano Needle Rifle (Conversion) Model of 1867 Rarity: Very Rare Cartridge: Used a 17.4mm Paper Cartridge Muzzle Velocity: I will assume quite slow, I didn’t find good info on this History: kzbin.info/www/bejne/jZa1mY1pbtWNgbc&ab_channel=sbamshooting Italian Vetterli Vitali Model 1870/87 Rarity: Common Cartridge: Used a same cartridge as the single shot, later in late 1880s, updated to a smokeless cartridge Ballistic Information: kzbin.info/www/bejne/lWOboZ19a5eUitE&ab_channel=TheKoba49 Muzzle Velocity: I will assume around 2000 ft / sec after the smokeless update History: kzbin.info/www/bejne/boGsc62vmpynpZo&ab_channel=C%26Rsenal Italian Navy (Vetterli - Ferracciu) Model 1890 (Repeater) Rarity: Very Rare Cartridge: 10.35 mm x 47 R (Smokeless Cartridge) History: kzbin.info/www/bejne/eYDCZmCurr1qhpo&ab_channel=ForgottenWeapons Muzzle Velocity: Shade above 2000 ft / sec 6. Norwegian Norwegian Jarmann Model 1884 Rifle (Tubeloading Repeater Rifle) Rarity: Extremely Rare Cartridge: Small bore 10.15 mm Muzzle Velocity: Around 1500 ft / sec History: www.militaryrifles.com/jarmann 8. Empire of Greater Japan Murata Rifle Type 13 and Type 18(Model 1880 and 1885 村田銃) (Single Shot) Rarity: Very Rare Cartridge: 11mm x 60 Japanese Murata (First produced domestic cartridge by Japan) Muzzle Velocity: Around 1430 ft / sec History: kzbin.info/www/bejne/sJKpqaiqmdaSo6s&ab_channel=ForgottenWeapons Murata Rifle Type 22 (Model 1889) 明治 二十 二 年 村田 運弾 銃Semi Smokeless Rarity: Very Rare Cartridge: Used a domestic Cartridge 8mm x 53 R (tubeloader) Muzzle Velocity: 1850 feet / sec History: www.militaryrifles.com/japan/murata22 9. Great Britain (Of course I don’t have to list this one) 10. Austrian Hungarian Empire Model 1867 Wanzl Conversion Rifle Rarity: Rare Cartridge: a 14mm x 33 Rimfire Muzzle Velocity: 1290 feet / sec History: www.militaryrifles.com/austria/wanzl Shooting Video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/eovZYnV4ZdCKhpo&ab_channel=capandball Model 1869 Werndl Holub Rifle (Single Shot Rifle) Rarity: Common Cartridge: Fired 62 grain charge of black powder and a 314 grain paper patched bullet which has a caliber of 11.25 x 42 R Muzzle Velocity: Around 1420 feet / sec (Better than the trapdoor) History: kzbin.info/www/bejne/qIO4iGibir9oma8&ab_channel=C%26Rsenal Shooting Video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/p6TbgIaqg85oiKM&ab_channel=C%26Rsenal 11. Belgium Albini Braendlin Rifle (Conversion) Model 1777/69 1853/69 Rarity: Rare Cartridge: Fire an 11 mm, loaded with 77 grain of black powder. Caliber is 11mm x 50 R Muzzle Velocity: Around 1370 feet/ sec History: www.militaryrifles.com/belguim/m1873albinibraendlin Belgian Terssen Rifle (Conversion) Rarity: Very Rare Catridge: Same as the albini braendlin Muzzle Velocity: Around 1370 feet/ sec History: www.militaryrifles.com/belguim/m184868terssen Comblain Model 1870 (Single Shot Rifle) Rarity: Rare Catridge: Same as the Albini Braendlin Muzzle Velocity: Around 1370 feet / sec History: kzbin.info/www/bejne/poGvmoeAqqhkqKc&ab_channel=C%26Rsenal Shooting Video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/qYisan1rr6qWr6s&ab_channel=C%26Rsenal 12. Dutch / Netherlands Dutch Beaumont Single Shot Model 1871 Rarity: Very Rare Catridge: Fired a 336 grain paper patched bullet backed up with 5 grams of black powder. It is a 11x51R caliber round. Muzzle Velocity: 1380 feet / sec History: www.militaryrifles.com/netherlands/beaumont71 Shooting Video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/iWLUoWmdpJeYeqs&ab_channel=GuyandLeonardA-R-West Dutch Beaumont Vitali (4 shots repeater) Model 1871/88 Rarity: Common Catridge: Fired a similar cartridge as the single shot beaumont and uses a 4 shots magazine with a cutoff. Muzzle Velocity: See above (Beaumont 1871) History: www.militaryrifles.com/netherlands/beaumont7188 Shooting video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/f2qxc2aoZbxjnNU&ab_channel=PaperCartridges 14. Switzerland Swiss Milbank Amsler Conversion Rifle Rarity: Very Rare Cartridge: Fired a stubby cartridge with a caliber of 18mm x 25 R or a .41 swiss depending on which guns converted. Muzzle Velocity: potentially really slow or fast depending on which caliber History: kzbin.info/www/bejne/ooDVfZxofpmqa6M&ab_channel=BlokeontheRange Swiss Vetterli Rifle Rarity: Common Catridge: .41 swiss (Doesn’t use the italian cartridge) it is also a intermediate cartridge Muzzle Velocity: 1400 ft / sec History: www.militaryrifles.com/swissvetterli Thanks for reading, I hope you can compare these with the contemporary trapdoor. I will say that the later ones are much better than the trapdoors, like the jarmann.

[@Bryl25]

Colt & Colt Style SAAs, S&W DAs especially K/L & N frames are my favourite handguns.

[@greywuuf]

I have a deeply help belief that the grind of looking for brass and primers and turning people away from reloading is 100% by design.

[@Real11BangBang]

you may very well be right

[@squiblift2019]

I've never figured out how these guys make any money off of a gun at a gun show that they mark up so high in price and they sit on it literally for 5 years like you say. I thought I was the only one who ever saw that. They won't take a penny less, but they'll load them in the trailer every friggin' Sunday, weekend after weekend for years not selling it.

[@Real11BangBang]

lol they are going to a gun "sĥow" i guess. Definitely not a gun "sale"

[@squiblift2019]

@@Real11BangBang Yes. Look, but don't buy.

[@TurkeyCreek-ek8mj]

Totally missed this one! I'll listen to it today. TC

[@Real11BangBang]

Lol it was a bit spur of the moment

[@greywuuf]

I am very sorry to have missed this live. I appreciate you being here.

[@Real11BangBang]

No worries

[@noapologizes2018]

Garrett, I'm sorry I missed the show. I watched most of it this morning. I am an hour ahead so, my old body needs to sleep. I should be retired by now, but we all know why some of us old farts still have to work. I will try to catch the next live stream. I always enjoy the talk.

[@Real11BangBang]

lol no worries it wasent really planned

[@justincolt2558]

I’m from Granbury Texas and Bond arms was showcasing a 2 shot derringer in 9MM I told em give me that same derringer chambered in 44Mag/44 special and I would buy We will see where that goes 😂

[@Real11BangBang]

lol they used to have a 44 mag some years ago

[@DARIVSARCHITECTVS]

I ♥ old guns.

[@Squib1911]

I agree. Invest in collectable antique firearms. Better than interest on a savings account.

[@justinji1595]

Hello Garret, I unfortunately joined late for the last session and I heard someone talking about the Vetterli Rifle. Below I have list of the majority of the adopted military arms from the foreign countries so that you can compare them to the U.S. trapdoor. I will say some of them are a bit better than the trapdoor, while others are much more problematic. I will link the website, general information, catridge muzzle velocity, caliber, and rarity for each of the below mentioned military arms. 1. Imperial Russia: Model of 1857/69 Krnka Rifle (Пехотная Винтовка Крнка́ 1869)(Conversion rifle) Catridge: 15.24 x 41mm, or .6 caliber Russian liniya Muzzle Velocity: 350 meters / sec or 1150ft / sec(quite slow) Video Showcasing one: kzbin.info/www/bejne/rJuWl6CnZdCkZ5I&ab_channel=%D0%9F%D0%BE%D1%87%D1%83%D0%B2%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B2%D1%83%D0%B9%D0%9E%D1%80%D1%83%D0%B6%D0%B8%D0%B5GUNSROOM Rarity: Very Rare in the United States History: kzbin.info/www/bejne/mnXJqmiuoqxliK8&ab_channel=MosinMuseum Model of 1856/69 Albini Baranov (For the Russian Navy) орострельная винтовка системы лейтенанта Баранова Cartridge: Same cartridge as the krnka Muzzle Velocity: Same velocity as the Krnka Rarity: Extremely Rare (only about 10k ever made), most of them destroyed History: www.militaryrifles.com/russia/baranov Karle Needle Rifle Cartridge: A paper cartridge, unknown details Muzzle Velocity: I would infer that it is the same chassepot History: en.topwar.ru/178711-i-zhille-i-terri-i-karle.html Video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/eH_WqGVrra-YidE&ab_channel=PoppaSquat Rarity: Extremely Rare (215 ever made) Berdan l and Berdan ll (Pekhotniya vintovka Berdana obr. 1870g or 1868g) Cartridge: 42 Russian, or 10.75 x 58 mm paper patched bullet loaded with 77 grains of black powder Muzzle velocity: 1444 ft / sec (better than the trapdoor) History: www.militaryrifles.com/russia/berdan2 www.militaryrifles.com/russia/berdan1 Rarity: rare for the Berdan ll and extremely rare for the Berdan l 2. French Empire Chassepot Needle Rifle of 1866 Cartridge: 11mm paper cartridge loaded with a 386 grain heavy lead bullet Muzzle Velocity: 435 meters / sec History: kzbin.info/www/bejne/Y4LXo3t5abGSbqM&ab_channel=ForgottenWeapons Rarity: Quite common 1854/69 Tabatiere System (Conversion) Cartridge: 17.8 mm x 35 R Muzzle Velocity: around 950 feet / sec (quite slow) History: www.militaryrifles.com/france/tabatierenew Shooting video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/fIq4kmeNhdmApKc&ab_channel=GuyandLeonardA-R-West Rarity: Rare Gras Rifle Model 1874 Catridge: (11mm x 59 R) Muzzle Velocity: 1450 ft / sec (Better than the trapdoor) History: www.militaryrifles.com/france/gras Rarity: Very Common Lebel 1886 (Smokeless) Cartridge: 8mm Lebel Muzzle Velocity: 2400 ft / sec Magazine Capacity: 10 rounds fully loaded Rarity: Very Common 3. German Empire Lindner Podewell Conversion Rifle (Bavarians) (Single Shot) Cartridge: (13.9 mm or .54 caliber) Muzzle Velocity: Unknown, I will assume that it is around 1250 ft / sec Rarity: Very Rare Shooting Video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/qHuVqphrZ5d_hsU&ab_channel=GuyandLeonardA-R-West Bavarian Model 1869 Werder Rifle (Single shot) Catridge: 11mm x 50 R Muzzle Velocity: Around 1465 feet / sec (Better than trapdoor) Rarity: Very Rare History: www.militaryrifles.com/bavaria/werder Shooting Video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/eX26mIOEe6lnmc0&ab_channel=BlokeontheRange German Mauser 1871 Rifle Cartridge: 11mm x 60 R Muzzle Velocity: Around 1420 feet / sec (Still a tiny bit better than trapdoor) History: www.militaryrifles.com/germany/mauser1871 Shooting Video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/jInCemx4r92bh8k&ab_channel=C%26Rsenal Rarity: Quite Common German Mauser 71/84 Repeating Rifle (8 shots tubular magazine) Catridge: Same as before Muzzle Velocity: Same as before Shooting Video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/aaSwfH-mpK9jn5Y&ab_channel=C%26Rsenal Rarity: Common 4. Serbia Mauser Model of 1880 (Single Shot) or Mauser Koka Milavanovic Cartridge: Chambered for a 10.15 Caliber Cartridge Muzzle Velocity: 1680 feet / sec (Much better than trapdoor) History: www.militaryrifles.com/mausermilovanovic Rarity: Very Rare 5. Kingdom Of Italy Italian Single Shot Vetterli Modello 1870 ((Fucile da Fanteria mod.1870 Vetterli)) Rarity: Extremely Rare Cartridge: 10.4 mm Vetterli Cartridge, 11mm longer than the swiss vetterli cartridge Muzzle Velocity: Around 1400 ft / sec History: www.militaryrifles.com/italy/vetterli Italian Carcano Needle Rifle (Conversion) Model of 1867 Rarity: Very Rare Cartridge: Used a 17.4mm Paper Cartridge Muzzle Velocity: I will assume quite slow, I didn’t find good info on this History: kzbin.info/www/bejne/jZa1mY1pbtWNgbc&ab_channel=sbamshooting Italian Vetterli Vitali Model 1870/87 Rarity: Common Cartridge: Used a same cartridge as the single shot, later in late 1880s, updated to a smokeless cartridge Ballistic Information: kzbin.info/www/bejne/lWOboZ19a5eUitE&ab_channel=TheKoba49 Muzzle Velocity: I will assume around 2000 ft / sec after the smokeless update History: kzbin.info/www/bejne/boGsc62vmpynpZo&ab_channel=C%26Rsenal Italian Navy (Vetterli - Ferracciu) Model 1890 (Repeater) Rarity: Very Rare Cartridge: 10.35 mm x 47 R (Smokeless Cartridge) History: kzbin.info/www/bejne/eYDCZmCurr1qhpo&ab_channel=ForgottenWeapons Muzzle Velocity: Shade above 2000 ft / sec 6. Norwegian Norwegian Jarmann Model 1884 Rifle (Tubeloading Repeater Rifle) Rarity: Extremely Rare Cartridge: Small bore 10.15 mm Muzzle Velocity: Around 1500 ft / sec History: www.militaryrifles.com/jarmann 8. Empire of Greater Japan Murata Rifle Type 13 and Type 18(Model 1880 and 1885 村田銃) (Single Shot) Rarity: Very Rare Cartridge: 11mm x 60 Japanese Murata (First produced domestic cartridge by Japan) Muzzle Velocity: Around 1430 ft / sec History: kzbin.info/www/bejne/sJKpqaiqmdaSo6s&ab_channel=ForgottenWeapons Murata Rifle Type 22 (Model 1889) 明治 二十 二 年 村田 運弾 銃Semi Smokeless Rarity: Very Rare Cartridge: Used a domestic Cartridge 8mm x 53 R (tubeloader) Muzzle Velocity: 1850 feet / sec History: www.militaryrifles.com/japan/murata22 9. Great Britain (Of course I don’t have to list this one) 10. Austrian Hungarian Empire Model 1867 Wanzl Conversion Rifle Rarity: Rare Cartridge: a 14mm x 33 Rimfire Muzzle Velocity: 1290 feet / sec History: www.militaryrifles.com/austria/wanzl Shooting Video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/eovZYnV4ZdCKhpo&ab_channel=capandball Model 1869 Werndl Holub Rifle (Single Shot Rifle) Rarity: Common Cartridge: Fired 62 grain charge of black powder and a 314 grain paper patched bullet which has a caliber of 11.25 x 42 R Muzzle Velocity: Around 1420 feet / sec (Better than the trapdoor) History: kzbin.info/www/bejne/qIO4iGibir9oma8&ab_channel=C%26Rsenal Shooting Video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/p6TbgIaqg85oiKM&ab_channel=C%26Rsenal 11. Belgium Albini Braendlin Rifle (Conversion) Model 1777/69 1853/69 Rarity: Rare Cartridge: Fire an 11 mm, loaded with 77 grain of black powder. Caliber is 11mm x 50 R Muzzle Velocity: Around 1370 feet/ sec History: www.militaryrifles.com/belguim/m1873albinibraendlin Belgian Terssen Rifle (Conversion) Rarity: Very Rare Catridge: Same as the albini braendlin Muzzle Velocity: Around 1370 feet/ sec History: www.militaryrifles.com/belguim/m184868terssen Comblain Model 1870 (Single Shot Rifle) Rarity: Rare Catridge: Same as the Albini Braendlin Muzzle Velocity: Around 1370 feet / sec History: kzbin.info/www/bejne/poGvmoeAqqhkqKc&ab_channel=C%26Rsenal Shooting Video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/qYisan1rr6qWr6s&ab_channel=C%26Rsenal 12. Dutch / Netherlands Dutch Beaumont Single Shot Model 1871 Rarity: Very Rare Catridge: Fired a 336 grain paper patched bullet backed up with 5 grams of black powder. It is a 11x51R caliber round. Muzzle Velocity: 1380 feet / sec History: www.militaryrifles.com/netherlands/beaumont71 Shooting Video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/iWLUoWmdpJeYeqs&ab_channel=GuyandLeonardA-R-West Dutch Beaumont Vitali (4 shots repeater) Model 1871/88 Rarity: Common Catridge: Fired a similar cartridge as the single shot beaumont and uses a 4 shots magazine with a cutoff. Muzzle Velocity: See above (Beaumont 1871) History: www.militaryrifles.com/netherlands/beaumont7188 Shooting video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/f2qxc2aoZbxjnNU&ab_channel=PaperCartridges 14. Switzerland Swiss Milbank Amsler Conversion Rifle Rarity: Very Rare Cartridge: Fired a stubby cartridge with a caliber of 18mm x 25 R or a .41 swiss depending on which guns converted. Muzzle Velocity: potentially really slow or fast depending on which caliber History: kzbin.info/www/bejne/ooDVfZxofpmqa6M&ab_channel=BlokeontheRange Swiss Vetterli Rifle Rarity: Common Catridge: .41 swiss (Doesn’t use the italian cartridge) it is also a intermediate cartridge Muzzle Velocity: 1400 ft / sec History: www.militaryrifles.com/swissvetterli Thanks for reading the list. There are guns like the vetterli swiss, vetterli vitali, the jarmann rifle, etc that are much better than the trapdoor. But overall, I would say trapdoor are at least on par with the majority of the single shots.

[@Real11BangBang]

thankyou very much this is helpfull and i will definitely be useing it. i agree many of these are better designs. the main thing i was getting at was people who say the trapdoor was obsolete when it was adopted. since the first true adoption came in 1866 i think it was rather state the art at the time.

[@justinji1595]

@@Real11BangBang Yep. Some of them are extremely rare in the U.S., especially the russian arms. I heard the majority of them were ravaged for their materials and melted down for building tanks in WW2. The ones that are remaining are often in very poor condition.