Lever Battle: La Pavoni Europiccola vs. Olympia Cremina

[@BrianQuan]

Wow lots of comments and questions! Keep them coming. I'll be responding to them soon!

[@davidhunternyc1]

All La Pavoni would have to do is use beefier metal, at the grouphead (for temperature stability), and in the base, for stability. The La Pavoni need another 5 - 10 pounds of weight.

[@tianyaolu5912]

Hello Brian! Great video ! Can you share the tamper and funnel link plz ? Thanks a lot.

[@TheToppo78]

Hey Brian, thanks for the great comparison video on those 2 beauties ✨ I am lucky enough to own a 72 Cremina and a 2001 LP Professional, so I have nearly the same playing field over here. I can agree on your findings comparing the machines : build quality of the Cremina is much much better! No loose boiler after some time, no wiggling around on the desk, she just feels that much more stable when pulling a shot. The shielded boiler of the Cremina is (as said) an important point especially with smaller kids. Finally (at the risk of sounding like Mr Smart-ass...) one remark: the steam tip of the earlier 70s Creminas are not interchangeable as the tip is soldered to the wand. Exchangeable steam tips came with the change to the angled steam valve. For those who really struggle with this, the parts (valve + wand) are exchangeable although the spare parts are quite expensive. But they are obtainable. Overhauling/servicing both machines is quite easy. For the Pavoni you might need some special tools, the Cremina does not require those at all. Just a basic metric tool set and you're ready to go. I can Highly recommend the video series from Orphan Espresso about rebuilding a Cremina: every single step is shown by Doug and Barb. Asbestos removal was no big issue at all after watching Doug's explanation. All in all: both Signoras brighten up my day whenever I pull a shot and I'm happy to have both 🥰

[@BrianQuan]

I was not aware of that on the earlier steam tips! Thank you for leaving this informative comment :)

[@BiggCliph]

I got my very first espresso machine just two days ago. I got an ‘87 Cremina for a few hundred bucks more than a new europiccola…and it’s in amazing condition! Before I bought it, I didn’t actually finish watching this cus I thought the Cremina was so far out of my reach and I didn’t want to get sad. But I got VERY lucky and here I am with a Cremina in my kitchen. I keep turning around and looking at it to make sure I really have it 😂 I’m so excited to learn on it!

[@playbackamusicloversjourne8620]

At 4x the price it s/b a better overall machine. However, for home use where you're only making a couple of coffee in the morning, it's a no brainer for me, the EP wins hands down as you can also buy a TOTL grinder and still come in at only 1/2 the price of the Cremina. Good video, thanks.

[@PortalFPV]

Tip I saw for the Europiccola's steam wand....add a fiber washer to its connection point and it won't flop around anymore

[@carsiotto]

What a refreshing and honest review! Well done! Can you compare the flair 58 shot vs the cremina and LP? That would be awesome to watch!

[@anthonyschumacher9925]

Excellent and detailed video man. The Cremina is my dream machine. Plus it has Swiss roots, like me. The price is the barrier. Gonna take time but it shall be mine...one day. Now I know what to expect thanks to you. Cheers.

[@mr.scooterboy5513]

Thank you very much, my man! I've been exactely looking for a comparison like yours. Thumbs up!!!

[@Ryan-Espresso]

Note for Pre-millennium machines (not counting the last few ones made in 1996-1999 roughly) the steam arm is fixed in one position until you loosen the compression nut for adjusting the attack angle.

[@juliangheiler7646]

Yeah mine doesn't move at all so I have that contact point he mentioned.

[@UninstallYourLife]

I am really interested in the ponte vecchio lusso, hope if you can borrow one for comparisons lol

[@michaelireland1704]

Great view. I have a La pavoni 2005 professional. Love the machine, pulls great shots, looks beautiful, is simple to repair and maintain, and has a host of mods available. Yes on the downside, every part of the machine is burning hot apart from the handles, the shaky handle and the whole machine moves around the place. I got mine for £300 and it was worth every penny

[@geoffsemon7411]

Great video comparing the 2 machines. I have found that installing the isolator from coffee-sensor has made a huge difference to being able to maintain an even head temperature when I'm making a few coffees on my LP Pro. Once you've been singed enough times using the LP, you do learn how to avoid it. I never have a problem now days

[@BrianQuan]

Hey GEoff, I actually should take a look at the coffee-sensor products. I recently got added to their FB group.

[@Anarchsis]

I love, love, love my Europiccola but would like a Cremina just for back up.

[@Anarchsis]

Just a tip for all you people worried about the La Pavoni moving around, I have mine on a silicone baking mat, no moving around, and really that doesn’t bother me.

[@silasketgaskets8709]

Am super curious to see a shot comparison between the La Marzocco Leva 14,000 USD home machine and the above and also some of the higher end plumbed in levers ie; Bezzera.

[@billyaldrich8947]

Thanks Brian,Great review.I also am in Bay Area up in Novato. I just got a Quick Mill Alexia > trying to learn on my own like watching videos like yours.So grateful for KZbin.

[@BrianQuan]

Hopefully you can make it down to SF area to an event! Would be glad to meet you.

[@michaelgottlieb9699]

Great Video Brian. I have a both the Cremina and La Pavoni + a Niche grinder. Pavoni temperature control at the group-head is an issue, takes some time to learn the machine and get the feel of cycling on and off to regulate temperature.

[@BrianQuan]

That is a wonderful combo you have there! I think part of the challenge of what makes the LP fun is that temperature management. Once you get it right you are wonderfully rewarded.

[@jjlad5037]

That Pavoni pulled a beauty of a shot!

[@KnowledgePerformance7]

My pre-millennium has a fixed steam wand, only way to move it is to remove the nut holding it to the valve. Not sure why they bothered changing to the moveable one, it seems like an inferior design given the angle issue you discussed. Perhaps if one was so inclined it would be possible to replace the articulating wand with the fixed version.

[@daRock1212]

Hi Brian, I was lucky enough to get a post mil EP on auction (so I'm not sure if it's a more recent model). For a day I could not figure out how to remove the steam wand. Then I figured out that I had this grub screw blocking the upward movement that I haven't seen anyone reference. Then it dawned on me, I think it's there to allow you to steam with a contact point as you mentioned. Does yours have that? If so, back out the grub screw and lock the steam wand in place! Thanks for your EP videos, I've been referencing them heavily to pull lighter roast shots and for general temp management and usage. It's been very helpful!

[@BrianQuan]

Interesting! I couldn't find the grub screw on my machine. I actually am not 100% sure about why they allow you to move the steam wand arm like that. My original guess was about the auto frothing attachment (i may record a quick vid about that) but I am not certain.

[@Captn_Slow]

Mine has that screw as well. Back it out a bit and the steam wand position is fixed.

[@Captn_Slow]

But it really differs from model to model. I have a LP Esperto as well, the steam wand does not have that screw. But other owners of the Stradivari which from the appearance has the same steam wand has that screw in it.

[@jjlad5037]

All I need to know is how long do they take to heat up? Tired of waiting 20-30mins in the morning to make my coffee.

[@Victor-kh5rh]

Since both machines use only a single boiler, do you have to wait between pulling a shot and steaming milk? Also there is a full range of la Pavonis, I think its a bit silly to compare a $4000 machine with the entry level la Pavoni, when there is the Lusso, Stradivari, Esperto, etc range that still cost half the price of the Cremina but address a lot of the problems you highlighted

[@niosea]

Great comparison as always, if you take a Look at the Espresso machines Olympia Express were making prior to the Cremina you will realise Why those two machines Are so similar. Is the pressure gaudge you have on the cremina worth it? Many thanks Brian

[@BrianQuan]

The pressure gauge is absolutely worth it. It provides another data point to look at when you are executing pressure profiles! Plus on a Cremina you can clearly see when your machine will tip over (6 bar+).

[@theperfectloaf]

Wonderful video! Question (sorry if you've answered this but I can't find it anywhere): what portafilter do you have for your Cremina? I have one on the way and would love an olivewood (?) handle naked like that one. Thank you!

[@drjrjules1]

Hey Brian! Great Video.. Where's the Maximatic video you promised us? lol

[@kheal13]

Hey Brian! Great video. You make it look so easy man. Lots been said about needing to be an absolute master to pull consistent shots with a lever machine. But would like to ask how easy is it really to make a switch from a pump machine? I’m currently using a rocket giotto modded with flow profiling. But considering getting the Cremina. Would love to hear your thoughts!

[@jjlad5037]

Timely vid.... as I watch I'm busy rebuilding my Pavoni Stradivari for the third time. And I'm thinking, perhaps it's time to consider a new machine. Big bucks for a Cremina...but oh so nice!

[@GrahamB29]

Something I wonder about. I have a cafelatt Robot, so very similar to a Flair but with a 57.5mm basket that is deep. On the Robot, you start with the levers up, you press out the coffee, then you pull them back up. Then to clean up you put a second cup underneath and press down again... and this time the flow rate is way higher. It seems to me that pulling the levers up after the shot damages the puck. Now it seems to me that the first step with either of these machines involves creating a vacuum above the puck... is that correct? Does it matter with a dry puck? I also have a spring-lever ”Super Moka” and could never get anything decent because the initial up-stroke seems to destroy the puck integrity... but it’s an old and fairly gnarly machine which is very unstable. Otherwise, yeah, great honest video :-)

[@gorazdatanasoski7967]

I think theres a screwholle for a tiny allen head on the back of the steamwand near where jt connects to the boiler. I have am esperto so I would assume the europpicola has it too. The screw just portrudes out a bit and acts as a stop for the steamwand

[@s96822]

Nice review. The Cremina was my first real espresso machine. Bought in new in the mid 1980's between 300-400 USD. Paired it with my first burr grinder a Gaggia MDF. Cremina heated up fast, was reliable, pulled decent shots and steamed milk ok. Like a swiss army knife. Nothing fancy just meat and potatoes. Tank had to be refilled often and wasn't very big. After Cremina have gone through a slew of machines both lever and semi auto vibe, rotary, multi boiler and even a commercial Gaggia in my home. Realistically the Cremina IMO is worth around the same price as the other simple home lever machines, Pavoni, Pontevecchio and maybe the soon to be released Argos. No way is it worth 3700 USD. For that money you can buy a plumbed in/tank lever machine workhorse like Quickmill, Bezzera that have solid springs. I know some tout direct lever but the big boys use springs including LM Leva. Truth is my current Spaziale pulls better shots than the Cremina at about 65% the Cremina price and gives you direct plumb, volumetric pump (can stop manually also) elect temp control and dual boilers.

[@noleftturnunstoned]

You are totally right. He said it best when he called the Cremina is a Europiccola in a box.

[@GuitarsAndSynths]

How does the Olympia Cremina compare to Profitec 800 and Bezerra Strega high end level machines?

[@Zeptilicious]

I Love your videos! How do these 2 compare to the Flair 58?

[@BrianQuan]

I'm working on a video about this exact topic! The differences are mainly down to convenience + space. Espresso quality is difficult to compare due to the basket size differences but they'll all make amazing espresso.

[@roberthodge6711]

What's the tamper station you're using?

[@hoobeydoobey1267]

I'd love to compare flavors across a commercial machine to these and a spring lever.

[@khaledagamy1002]

When the group head is around 90C, what's the water temperature inside the portafilter? I'm trying to replicate it on flair pro2, I can get water inside portafilter at 93-94C. Also subscribed great videos and just right info

[@martinmanzi1830]

Damn, I had missed this video. I love that cremina, maybe in a few years I'll go for a lever machine...it seems so much fun

[@jb_90265]

as you mentioned, the Olympia Cremina C67 if it was made before 1983 the boiler is covered in asbestos ....

[@DanielBlomqvist]

Shot quality and workflow of these two vs Flair 58 for espresso?

[@YY096]

Flair 58 is $600 machine vs $4000 machine I only own the flair pro 2 but for the workflow im guessing this 2 machine is way above flair 1. You can boil water with this 2. You get steamer Everything is a lot faster and easier than flair, well except maybe maintenance

[@thamtham4924]

@@YY096 heating time for LP is 10 minutes with dry pump or 15-20minutes without dry hand pump. Flair only need boiling water which could be faster. But overall, it could take pretty much similar time frame.

[@BrianQuan]

Hey Daniel I actually posted a video of the Flair 58 and Europiccola in action many months ago. Traditional Levers vs. Flair 58 is a video I am working on. As for shot quality it is very difficult to evaluate because of 58mm vs 49/51mm baskets. The flowrates and puck depth change a ton of percieveable shot qualities like "texture" and what not. TBH you can pull amazing shots on any of these and you wouldn't notice a difference unless you had them side by side. As for workflow, the biggest differences are going to be space and convenience. With something like the LP/Cremina you can pull multiple shots throughout the week off of a single reservoir fill. Whereas the Flair 58 requires a separate kettle and has a larger footprint than the Cremina/LP.

[@ivohunink]

Brian, you mentioned that you're pulling your shots when your group head is at approx. 80 degree Celsius. Doesn't that cool your brewing water too much, and hence, don't you get under extracted results? I'm always going for ~90 degrees Celsius for dark roasts and ~93 degree Celsius for lighter roasts. What do you think?

[@scider2]

I think the idea is that for cooling down the hot water (maybe 120C) from the boiler to about 90-95C the group head temperature needs to be around 80C.

[@ivohunink]

@@scider2 thanks, if that's the case, that would make perfect sense. Personally, I've my pressure stat set to 0.9 bar which converts to 96 degree Celsius. Depending on my grouphead temperature I can that stick to the 96 degree by pulling the shot when the grouphead is also 96, or go slightly lower for darker roasts.

[@ehabf440]

How is the espresso taste and texture compared to DE1 lever or cremina profiles?

[@BrianQuan]

Hey Ehab, I'll be doing a video on this in the future. But for now it is very difficult to compare due to the differences in headspace and basket sizes. Also to be pretty straightforward, the Cremina profile on the DE1 doesn't really make sense as you can't really mimic a manual lever and it doesn't seem to be modeled off of the SL (6 bar spring?).

[@kenonchua4838]

Hi Brian! Enjoy your videos. I think the new LP Experto Abile seems to do much better in terms of the steaming ergonomics. The wand no longer moves. Seems like the boiler is bigger too.

[@BrianQuan]

I'll have to take a look at more recent LP models. I honestly haven't kept up with the newer stuff ha

[@ToddParker]

what about the Ponte Vecchio?

[@DClaville]

This is a great video thank you for making it, it made me want to spend money and get a Cremina lol

[@firmansyah5375]

how to compare with robot is the taste is same, I am curious I have robot

[@anduril2973]

Thank you, Brian,for your comparative review! You certainly covered lots of aspects, even the sound. In my opinion though, the aesthetics of the Europiccola is radically superior to the Cremina. Running the risk of burning my knuckles is a small price to pay for the beauty of the Europiccola, which is an adornment in the kitchen. Brgds

[@nomdecode5380]

How long did it take you to be able to pull consistently good (not perfect) shots on the La Pavoni?

[@BrianQuan]

If you already have a baseline knowledge of how to dial in then this should honestly only take you a week or so! It's really understanding how the machine deals with temperature and shot to shot temperature variances that you need to learn!

[@tomscott4438]

Is this really a far comparison? The La Pavoni sells for about $950 while the Olympia goes for something around $3,500, so I would hope and expect it to be better.

[@IMAWriterRobJ]

To me, a 40 gram shot IS a long shot..but I get your meaning. This is a very fine video, smart, informed, and interesting from the get go. Good work! BTW, I've owned both machines (my post Mill had a brass piston (I replaced the plastic one). Including a Strega, MCAL, and Robot..the best shot I ever pulled was from the Pavoni. The Robot was by far the most consistent. The Niche Zero you have is an excellent grinder..I also own one.

[@BrianQuan]

Hey Robert, Nowadays a lot of folks love their long ratio espressos hah. I think it is something worth experimenting with! You should check out the sprover.

[@kennyyou9947]

Keep tempting us with that huge Helor

[@BrianQuan]

Video is coming out soon :)

[@MustyBandaidMan]

Is there a way to mod the La Pavoni steam wand to keep it from moving around so you have a contact point like the Cremina?

[@983gold]

I've got a Pavoni professional (post mil) and it has a small bolt that stops the steam wand moving all the way up like it did in the video. You probably get about 20 degrees of movement. That said, I do recognise that steaming milk isn't the most comfortable on the Pavoni. But I still love it 😁

[@babajamiaco]

Got my gold La Pavoni Pro recently. Took about 5-6 bad shots to get the idea about grind sizing, timing, rationing. Once I got it right, no looking back. As to the choice between these two, La Pavoni wins hands down in the design department. The only thing I'm gonna improve is finding some mat to reduce shifting around.

[@minnymoony]

but why does the cremina cost soooo much? its priced higher than good quallity DB machines?

[@triniazn]

Elektra Micro Casa next?

[@BrianQuan]

I may try to get one of those in! I currently have a La Cimbali Micro Cimbali as my small spring lever.

[@GuitarsAndSynths]

Olympia Cremina looks awesome but also costs 6x that of the La Pavoni. I went cheap with a Flair lever machine until I know whether or not lever machines are for me.

[@ajbueno2192]

Exactly my thoughts. I liked the Cremina a lot until I saw the price. Also both are standard without a pressure gauge it seems. Very hard to justify for all that money and very important to pull a good shot. I stick with my trusty Flair pro 2 (with a standard pressure gauge) that gives me great coffee every day anyway.

[@artactsound444]

The Europicola is a work of Art, it is beautiful to look at, it's simple, solid design is admirable, a pleasure to look at every morning. The Cremina looks very ordinary, a box with side pannels, not exiting at all.

[@Anarchsis]

That’s why I love my La Pavoni.

[@atelierbaumgartner4391]

The Cremina looks for me 10x better.

[@naaaateeee]

Great stuff 👍

[@garmangulbrandsen65]

can you get me a Cremina for the same price ? in Swede price differs is like 2000€ so how to compare

[@Dune87]

Great video! The Cremina has no antivac valve so you have to release false pressure. The Europiccola has an anti vac/safety valve. I own several Pavonis and one 1981 Cremina. The build quality of the Cremina is definitely better, just very little handle wobble very sturdy.

[@BrianQuan]

From my understanding you can fit the anti-vac valve cap (red cap) that Olympia released and that should effectively do the same thing!

[@Dune87]

@@BrianQuan yes, that's a very expensive option. I will build my own anti vac. It's a valve with a 90 degree fitting and a copper cap to capture the moisture.

[@atelierbaumgartner4391]

The build quality of the cremina is way over the EP. I am glad to have the boiler covered. And for me it looks better then the EP. I have done a complete rebuild on my Cremina. And with rebuild i mean i have soldered a peace of Copper in to the Lever-Slot and milled it to the original spec. New crome on all parts etc. This effort i would never ever gibe to a EP. Yes you can make realy good Espresso with both Machines. But the Cremina is for someone that can feel the quality the way to go.

[@cjlafleur7585]

Here, have some asbestos with your coffee!

[@UlyssesO]

Would you ever consider selling that cremina? - Fellow Bay Area coffee enthusiast ;)

[@BrianQuan]

The Maximatic may be for sale!

[@patompoomwichitchoti6051]

Helor 106 ? Can it handle that 2 manual machine ?

[@BrianQuan]

Helor 106 can definitely handle all machines

[@patompoomwichitchoti6051]

@@BrianQuan thank , I planing to order 1 .

[@SantiagogranadosR]

Thank you!

[@BrianQuan]

You're welcome!

[@toasterboy708]

And next week, over on Brian’s Car Channel, we have the Toyota Corolla Vs Rolls Royce Silver Shadow comparison video…

[@BenjaminNew]

Can you do a video of the helor 106....

[@BrianQuan]

It's coming soon 🙂

[@BenjaminNew]

@@BrianQuan awesome man. Thanks.

[@leozavaglia2269]

Great comparison. I personally own a pavoni Eurobar (both pump and manual lever models) in my opinion the Eurobar is the perfect home manual lever machine

[@patricaristide7678]

A two switch/dual heating element Pavoni WITH overheating mod is without doubt better than the later models. You don’t need to compromise with heat settings resulting in inferior steam capacity. I would quite like a Cremina however, better stability and steam wand on the lefthand side. More than ten times the price of my Europiccola though! That’s a lot.

[@BrianQuan]

I'll have to check the overheating mod! I'm looking at some of those premill LP as I do like the option to switch between the high/low heating elements.

[@erikthereddd]

Cremina: buy once, cry once Europiccola: touch once, cry every time

[@BrianQuan]

It really do be like that sometimes

[@marylandflyer5670]

While La Pavoni prices are high. Cremina prices are astronomical, and not really justified IMO. I’d take a new Pavoni Professional any day and buy lots of mods with money saved.

[@BrianQuan]

Yes and with the upcoming Argos and Vectis it'll be hard to recommend a La Pavoni or Cremina!

[@procrusteus]

I wouldn't choose either of them. I use an Espresso Forge along with a Bellman steamer for espresso that is equally as good as these units. The forge is so simple that I have never had to perform any maintenance or repairs other than the 10 seconds it takes to apply silicon grease from time to time and the 30 seconds it takes to clean the group head. It will last forever and never die and it has a lifetime transferable warranty. No tipping, no danger of burning myself, uses standard E61 parts so I can use the best custom shower screens and 58mm baskets. No wasted power by keeping a machine idling and the fast startup time means that I will be drinking a Cappuccino in a little over ten minutes including cleanup. I saved myself a ton of money over something like a Cremina and I don't need to waste counter space as everything just fits inside a kitchen drawer when not being used.

[@HerrFinsternis]

Reviewer: "but look at this" 4:10 Me watching: "why would you do that?" 😅 Why don't you put the grinder i between the machines? The way it is everything is set up in such a way it's extra inconvenient to operate the europiccola.

[@noleftturnunstoned]

*He said it best when he called the Cremina a Europiccola in a box* . Just look at the components, they are nearly identical. Don't waste your money.

[@TomJones-tx7pb]

A go-cart in a box is a car.

[@noleftturnunstoned]

@@TomJones-tx7pb except adding a cabin to a "go-cart" improves its ergonomics, allowing it to be used in all weather, thereby greatly improving its value. Putting a europiccola in a box.... makes it more exspensive. *Olympia got its start selling rebadged Europiccolas*

[@smtandearthboundsuck8400]

A cremina is way more expensive though ?

[@noleftturnunstoned]

@@smtandearthboundsuck8400 yes

[@michaelrother9919]

Fairness would have meant: - that you tell first of all the "little" price difference between the Olympia Cremina (in Germany in 2023 = 3300,00€) and La Pavoni Europiccola Professional (even with the bigger boiler, in Germany in 2023 = 750€). - mentioning the avilability and price(!) of spare parts when talking about serivce-ability (in Germany/Austria I get Pavoni parts in many shops in any bigger town) while Cremina parts are to be purchased 90% at the manufacturer. - when talking about "leaving it all day on"...your statement is missing every argument or background. Suggestion: travel to italy, visit the really small sub-urban coffee bars or restaurants. The Pavonis there run all day, some since 40 years. Besides, in a time were electicity is very expensive, I am enjoying my La Pavoni being hot very quickly so I don't have to leave it always on. - to tell at which pressure you measured the water delivered with one lever pull - was it adjusted to the same? - I use my La Pavoni since 30+ years and never burnt myself and it does not move, when I pull my shots. - tell that it might be a bit more awkward to foam with the steam pipe left if you're right-handed. - tell at the beginning clearly which build years you compare. My steam pipe on my 1979 LaPavoni does NOT move at all as it is secured with a nut and I think you compare the post-mill LaPavoni with a old Cremina.....again, apples with peas. - Tell that the La Pavoni Professional (with bigger boiler) does NOT move at all if you don't handle it awkward. - If I equip my La Pavoni Pro with all clever tuning parts available (see coffee sensor page), e. g. a lever steam valve instead of the knob (which adds a lot to the workflow) it's still 2000,00 € cheaper. - Finally, I'd rather put a La Pavoni in my nice kitchen instead of a Brick like the Olympia. So it's a pity as this is an apple to pea comparison, leaving out every value and full of words without providing any values / evidence.

[@sweetmotash]

you are just cheap old man, mister ;D keep that money that you have saved in your bank account.

[@12s]

Cremina cost 6x more....................in Hong Kong.

[@BrianQuan]

It really do be like that

[@kvitoroulis]

Thanks, great content. Here is some thoughts from a long time pavoni owner 😊 : At the price point of the Cremina there are lot more options to *make life easier *, safer, etc. Overall the level of masochism involved in owning a lever machine is more consistent with the pavoni. The pavoni shot looked better during the pull… despite you having the pavoni awkwardly placed in the middle of your table. Your espresso cups are a bit funny :p m.kzbin.infoaWOdUuv5m2o

[@leandrodelgiudice]

You compare a classic Ferrari with a 2022 Dodge Charger.....Ferrari all the way!!