Kai-Fu Lee: AI Superpowers - China and Silicon Valley | Lex Fridman Podcast #27

[@lexfridman]

I really enjoyed this conversation with Kai-Fu. Here's the high-level outline: 0:00 - Introduction 1:26 - Chinese soul 4:28 - Difference between cultures of AI engineering 6:39 - Role of data in near-term impact of AI 8:37 - Tesla Autopilot approach 11:56 - Microsoft, Google, Apple and Silicon Valley cultures 24:22 - Entrepreneurship in China 38:51 - Impact of AI on jobs 44:58 - Andrew Yang and UBI 48:38 - Jobs that can't be automated 56:20 - Role for governments 58:30 - Cold War and the arms race metaphor 1:04:50 - Freedom of speech & different value systems in China & US 1:07:37 - Privacy challenges 1:12:27 - Heart and soul of a business 1:14:00 - Facing mortality 1:18:46 - Hard work and balance 1:22:12 - Advice to entrepreneurs 1:25:38 - First question for an AGI system

[@good2freelance1]

its good to have Chapters like this for long interviews, most long interviews don't have chapters.

[@Thomas...191]

Looking forward to "privacy challenges" from this fellow... fantastic interview so far!!

[@PauloLopesPT]

#andrewyang

[@SecretJanitor]

Andrew Yang next, please (preferably after the July debate and Daily Show interview).

[@OEFarredondo]

Thank you so much for all your hard work. I wish you prosperity and success in all your endeavors. Keep kicking ass.

[@Kgotso_Koete]

I love Lex Fridman's interview style. His emphasis on heart, soul, cultural history/legacies and of course tech. Very enriching.

[@nicobruin8618]

Damn, for a relatively small podcast you're managing to pull in some pretty high profile guests. Guests who many people maybe haven't heard of, but probably should've heard of.

[@thomcm12]

When you're like this guy though, other intelligent people will work with you because they can feel out who you are and probably like you. They probably know the reach and impact of podcasts is high and feel super glad to sit with this dude. He cares a lot. Watch that one two pods ago where the feed lost an hour and you'll see this dudes professional Integrity. As far as I know he's our main or only high conciousness lens Into this stuff. Plus u bet this girls like him. He's a sweet dude. We're all gonna see this dude for as long as he feels like being in the light is necessary. He's doin a great service. Thanks dude!

[@JousefM]

Cannot agree more, goob job Lex!

[@Tron247]

his podcast maybe small but Lex Fridman is one of the most credible people in the deep learning and AI sector lol

[@dolganthecute]

It's also fascinating that they all seem to know each other. Joe, Weinstein(s), Shapiro, Ruben, Fridman, etc. but also Yang, Gabbard, Lee, Elon and more :)

[@filmsbycarla3869]

Retraining routine job workers for non-routine careers is dubious at best.

[@supersnowva6717]

Great podcast with Kaifu Lee! Really appreciate having a different perspective other than guests from the western world. Thanks Lex!

[@sumtingwong8768]

"why we exist in this world could be influenced by society too much, its only when facing death that you see what is truly important to you" - Kai-Fu Lee

[@sebacaine6974]

Kai-Fu Lee's english is very, very good. Super impressive. He's also very careful in his articulation, humble in his portrayal of where his expertise is and isn't and well put together generally. Great guest. I'll have to see what else there is out there about him... I'd never heard of him prior to this.

[@diliff]

Well he moved to the US when he was 12 and went to high school and college in the US. So it's not totally surprising that his English is good. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kai-Fu_Lee

[@changeinanutshell]

Your interview with Mr. Lee is one of the most informative I've heard in quite awhile. Thanks!

[@DirtyAtreyu]

We need to approach the problem of AI very Kai-Fu Lee

[@Doggo622]

XD omg you made my day

[@cba000abc000]

DirtyAtreyu gay lil pinky.

[@Gregzenegair]

I see that I am too late ...

[@siddhantkumarjha3449]

Ethnic puns..

[@puneet7768]

lol nice

[@Adventurewizard44]

damn, Lex. It is cool to see how many bigshots you can get on this podcast. i found this guest very insightful and his message at the end while generic to be very beautiful. while striving for success is great, it is wise not to foget one's family and loved ones in the process.

[@namaljeffries2574]

basil Bass generic? fuck you! that shit was deeply impactful and not talked nearly about nearly as much as it should.

[@WillemAsselbergs]

On of your best shows. Kai-Fu Lee also hit all the good points very eloquently. Thanks for sharing

[@SophisticatedLang]

Dear Lex, I stumbled into your podcast with Kai-Fu Lee who I already know about as a great contributor to AI and to many subjects, but I was truly impressed by the thoughtful questions you asked and your ability to articulate and to draw out many profound observations from Mr. Lee. Congratulations!

[@jameskelmenson1927]

57 minutes in, Kai-Fu Lee resonates effortlessly. He's somewhere between brutal and tactful honesty and there's a lot of meaningful opinions and examples and he speaks freely about some pretty wild, abstract concepts but he's really right, it sounds like. Infrastructure, the competitive cities, effective retraining, it's awesome and we're all spectators to it. I like the points about healthcare, through and through a great interview great question posed and lots of quotable moments.

[@PresidentialWinner]

I think it's because he works in the VC space, meaning he has to be straightforward and honest, since he is betting a lot of resources to whatever endeavours he is talking about.

[@appl2597]

Lee Kai Fu has a way of answering questions about AI that makes it very easy for the average listeners to understand.

[@ogpapai4618]

The UBI proposed by andrew yang is not a solution to loss of job that are coming as he himself has stated on many occasions. The UBI will help the American people manage and navigate during that transitional period.. Thus whatever the displaced worker will decide on, he or she might do so as at their own discretion...Mr Kai-Fu Lee yang's approach is actually the most logical for that phase of transitioning into another job #yang2020

[@trtnec]

at 46:00, the part about retraining - it's basically impossible to retrain a large percent of aging "routine job" workers to do jobs of the future. Lee is smart and probably right about AI, but is not thinking outside of his own intellectual bubble regarding realistic solutions. UBI is the only realistic solution/transition for these types of workers. Ultimately, that person's value should not be tied to a subsistence job anyway.

[@trtnec]

Heather Larson I say that it’s not realistic because it literally hasn’t been in real life according to studies, to train aging manual workforce to do tech jobs. And it shows a misunderstanding of how hiring works in businesses. Who are the tech industry going after the most? Young, adaptable, tech-savvy 20-30 year olds, for better or worse. And money does come from “nowhere” if so many jobs no longer need to be done. Automation is massively profitable.

[@R32KLR]

Request an interview with Peter Thiel next please.

[@jessevandellen2439]

Yes please Lex!

[@lexfridman]

We'll make it happen.

[@poincaretrajectories5917]

Check out Eric Weinstein's podcast with Thiel (first episode), in the meantime ;)

[@spinLOL533]

R32KLR you say that like Lex lives next door to him

[@minibikepartsnow]

Peter turned into a Nazi

[@willweng305]

When is Andrew Yang coming to the show? I’m so anxious to see him respond or counter Kai point of no string attached UBI. I’m sure he agrees on finding life meaning, but man, we need to flush out the ideas of AI impact and inform the public. Beautiful discussion!

[@Ryan-mn7gm]

Lex, I had to read his book on the relationship between China and Silicon Valley for one of my college courses. I’ve been a long time fan but am just now seeing this interview, thank you for all your hard.

[@sebacaine6974]

Great podcast, Lex. You're quickly becoming one of my favorite podcasters. Can't wait for the Yang podcast.

[@connor-shorten]

Interesting to see more venture funds focusing on Artificial Intelligence! Great podcast!

[@vangjushkomini369]

Kai-Fu Lee, such a humble person!

[@piyh3962]

This is a really great episode, thanks Lex

[@reidmock2165]

I have immeasurable respect for Kai-Fu Lee

[@Lee-xb7lb]

Thanks for the podcast. Really enjoyed the conversation.

[@TijsMaas]

Thanks for the great episode! At 40:16, Kai-Fu Lee gives the best explanation of Artificial Intelligence I ever heard.

[@avi-ventures]

Lex, having my light roast coffee on a study break. Enjoying the content, defining my vision further. Love you.

[@Ta50039]

My favorite podcast of yours so far @lexfridman

[@sreramk1494]

This is one of the best interviews yet!!!

[@rodolfoyoshii8345]

Wow Kai-Fu Lee is one of the most eloquent and well versed Chinese person I've heard. Sorry for this profiling, but honestly just by listening to him I admire him. I think I'll buy one of his books.

[@umairansar5415]

Thank you Lex and Kai Fu Lee for the profound conversation about work and AI and meaning and love in face of death.

[@nlanglie]

Kai-Fu Lee's book is great, his thoughts on AI are phenomenal, but his thoughts at the end on love are what makes this for me. . . wow!!!

[@NeuroReview]

Rating: 8.3/10 In Short: Deep, powerful, and cultural Notes: This was one of the better early Lex podcasts, with a really badass and cool guest. Kai-Fu reminds me of a tony stark/zuckerburg type vibe but chinese. He definitely knows his stuff about business and AI and technology, and this is obvious throughout, but the coolest part is later on when he talks about his cancer. And how all of the crazy amounts of work he did (9 to 9, 6 days a week--seems like a lot of 'successful' people work this much), was not the most important thing in his life. The people and his family were. This is important to hear from people like this, as many of us are seeming to strive for this kind of success and missing the blessings and amazing life we have at home and with our families/friends. A longer convo would be amazing, and having him on again would also be amazin given the blow up of lex.

[@huili4364]

Really appreciated Dr. Lee's insights, knowledge and wisdom, which are truly needed nowadays.

[@PRASAD54321prasad]

Just adding in here a comment to say verbally that I liked this podcast better than few others.. May be because Kai-Fu Lee's answers seemed unbiased and honest (to me), gave insights into the practical issues and and possible practical solutions, rectified the hype around "AI is at rise", how companies and governments around the world are adopting to AI (Chinese infrastructures with built in sensors to facilitate Autonomous Vehicle test circuits), scenario of the AI startups and the differentiation between ML against AGI based startups' planning and approaches, and the human touch - about his life experience (cancer) and after-effects (much useful for upcoming workaholics if they would like to help themselves) and the final question by @Lex_Fridman and Kai-Fu Lee's answer, really carefully thought, beautifully put and quickly replied.

[@tebbythomas1809]

This episode is excellent! Extremely interesting and pertinent questions met with beautifully thought out articulate answers. Thanks for this!

[@pleaseforgivemyinsanity2801]

This is one of the most awesome channels I have ever found. KZbin should be recommending this to EVERYONE!

[@AANation360]

29:32 there's a cut there. What are you censoring out Lex?

[@zhongzhongclock]

6:06 Oh!!!!! I'm cleaning my project data when listenning here.

[@rodolfoyoshii8345]

And I'm studying Data Analysis...

[@MindandQiR1]

Just discovered this channel. Great stuff! Thanks.

[@ianbett3853]

Great interview mate. Well done

[@angelachikaebirim8894]

What a great interview. Really enjoyed it

[@hh83917]

Lee is very well spoken, thoroughly enjoyed the interview, thanks Lex!

[@jamorini]

He says Andrew Yang misses the part about Retraining people for work when Yang doesn’t miss that part he shows the numbers on how bad we are with retraining and then shows the numbers on how much more money is being made by people who you put money in there hands. With no money there is no opportunity. Put the money in the citizens hands and we will prosper.

[@typicalKAMBlover21]

This is really good stuff. Kaifu is a person with great insight to tech startups and AI and East-West culture difference.

[@yinlongliu2968]

Kai-Fu Lee is a very famous CIA spy！！！！！！！！！

[@dolganthecute]

I find it interesting that we often hear complaints about the great Chinese firewall, etc. We do forget that if they hadn't done that, they would probably been overrun by Silicone Wally and we would never have seen the products and applications coming out of China.

[@kenny0626]

The questions are so well thought and it makes the conversation so much more insightful.

[@user-qf3lq4zj8g]

1:15:30 "accomplishments that were dear to me (...) when I faced mortality in a matter of months (...) these meant nothing to me (...) If I had 6 months left, I'd spend it all with my loved ones, thanking them, giving them love back and apologizing to them that I lived my life in the wrong way". The human part, an amazingly meaningful section of this interview: all "society shaping" and methods towards increased productivity crumble when we face our true purposes, taking off the blindfold (red pill?)...

[@seansteel1395]

I loved the part about his family. Thanks Kai-Fu!

[@ashiamonteiro4886]

Dude....this was a beautiful intellectual conversation....thank you for.... simply listening at times...

[@PyjamasBeforeChrist]

Would love to see Andrew Yang on your show if you can?

[@DataJuggler]

19:00 'Google wants to do good and help the world' (funniest joke I have heard today). For an AI genius he doesn't seem very aware of what Google is really up to (censor what you see, hear and think = evil).

[@diliff]

As he said though, everyone has their own interpretation of what 'doing good' means. I'm sure China thinks they are doing good and helping the world too. But for China, individuals don't matter, only the wider people matter. So it's inconsequential to them if people who don't fit the 'correct' mould get squashed along the way.

[@ashishdubey94]

He worked at Google, I think it's only why he said that

[@dennisting9736]

I'm just curious what Kai Fu Lee thinks about block chain technology, not Bitcoin in particular.

[@ardeshir1912]

Amazing podcast and guest. very informative on AI and China's contribution. Only of few which I listened over again not to miss any great insight. Thx Lex

[@tejas9090]

Such an interesting podcast, thanks Lex, your interviewing skills keep getting better!!

[@colorfulcodes]

Wow ive been looking for an ai podcast for ever! Finally.

[@jfritz6233]

I love the series. How about a talk with Sam Harris?

[@Xweapon9099]

You should check out the episode right before this one

[@ashradiohead1]

This made my day. Brilliant and inspiring.

[@funkyasthmatic2155]

Hi, are these podcasts available on Spotify? Thanks

[@treyreeves7631]

Jordan P they are. open.spotify.com/show/2MAi0BvDc6GTFvKFPXnkCL?si=CRlb_8VgTF6uhPVp4ryWSA

[@CarlinZanaproa]

"That non-routine job will last for that person's lifetime." ...No offense, but... seriously? For one thing, and I believe Andrew Yang when he mentioned this, retraining success rates are abysmal. I don't mean to think pessimistically (as often seems to be the case around the world now-a-days, look up Negativity bias). I'm actually quite optimistic about the future, but Kai-Fu Lee does not seem to understand how human mental models work. If someone is a 50's-some-year-old trucker, and then self-driving-trucks come along, the trucker will struggle immensely. That person's whole mental model of life was based around trucking for a living. It's psychologically destabilizing. I don't know what it's like to be a trucker, but I'm pretty sure that saying "just get retrained as a teacher or something" won't work (at statistically significant rates, at least). Also, even if it *did* work, does Kai-Fu Lee really believe these non-routine jobs won't get automated as well? Is the former trucker bound to play Musical Chairs of the Job Market forever? I strongly disagree with his views on when AGI will be developed (I say give it 15 years), what with Intel's work on neuromorphic chips, bacteria-based graphene production so that it can actually start leaving the labs, what Numenta is doing in understanding the neocortex... There is an absolute whirlwind of scientific research going on thanks to the exponential nature of technological development, and so it's just going to get faster. That's why UBI *is* so important. It future-proofs resource security for humans, and as a bonus it makes people like single stay-at-home moms/dads survive & feed their kids (how does "retraining" fit with stay-at-home parents/housekeepers, Mr. Lee?) -- Admittedly some people might argue, in the harsh work-ethic style of America, "if you can't make money at a regular job, contributing to society, then you're a failure of life and should die". Personally I take a complete 180 to that idea and say "even people who are completely paralyzed & mentally disabled should get to live as happily as possible". Life is life -- it's precious. Anyway, my optimism largely comes from the fact that technology will make it cheaper/easier to fulfill the latter ideology.

[@sumittiwari1711]

Those who develop AI is not going take unintended consequences into account. It's the job of social critics. One of leading voice is Yuval noah harari.

[@CarlinZanaproa]

@@TheReferrer72 You're right, trickle-down economics is a lie. But with regard to affording technologies and why I'm optimistic, I remember recently reading about a situation in Venezuela. I don't want to get political & upset people, but reading it was quite inspiring. I can't find a link & am not sure if it's true, but the story goes there was a small group of civilians who were being locked out of getting supplies/water, like there was an area that was walled off. I don't know who was walling them off, but one civilian on the other side took a toy/RC drone, attached some water bottles to them, & flew them over the wall to give the water. Whether this story was true or not, it shows how technology can be democratized & empower the people. In the 1970's & 80's, people thought cell-phones would only be for the rich. And rightly so it seemed, because the first commercial cellphone was the Motorola DynaTAC 8000x in 1983, priced at $3995. That would be over $10,000 in today's dollars! I have a smartphone, it can run 3D apps smoothly, 16 GB storage, 5 inch display, etc. And it's unlocked, so no subscription/contract fee shenanigans. How much did I pay? ...$60. (I also just watched the FarmBot ad video... It's an ad, but I recommend watching it as it shows another example of open-source democratization of technology kzbin.info/www/bejne/ZqSYeIhviLykq7M )

[@CarlinZanaproa]

​@@sumittiwari1711 Dr. Harari is amazing at educating people, yeah. I loved his Brief History of Humankind course on Coursera. But I mean... will these unintended consequences that you pointed out be all that bad? I agree that they'll happen. Google did mess up when their AI algorithm labeled some images of people as "gorillas". That was bad, but it's not like the Terminator is coming. There's already a field called "inverse reinforcement learning" that can help avoid the single-mindedness of AI following some goal, preventing the movie-apocalypse stuff.

[@sumittiwari1711]

@@CarlinZanaproa check out this! If you haven't watch it. I highly recommend you. kzbin.info/www/bejne/mmXVc5tsead7r9k

[@CarlinZanaproa]

@@sumittiwari1711 I didn't know he spoke at Stanford. Thank you!

[@huuud]

Excellent podcast! Thank you 😊

[@StormyJoeseph]

The service you provide is so admirable. You are an American hero that was born in a foreign nation. That fascinates me. 😬👍

[@achildofgod9954]

You can see clearly here the intelligence and insights of a Chinese person. It’s very obvious here b/c the guy speaks fluent English . Imagine how many Chinese men and women are just as intelligent but we never get to witness it b/c of language barrier .

[@JoeWong81]

Wow I've heard of this guy Kai-Fi before but now I'm really sold on this guy. His knowledge and insight are unparalleled especially his comparison of silicon valley vs. china trends

[@muheebridwan5308]

I think Kai-Fu Lee did summarize his book (AI Superpowers) in the podcast. Very insightful opinion by him. I share the same opinion regarding hard work and finding balance. Our families & relations are what drives us in the first place as such regardless of what undertakings we might have, we should always strike balance. I was hoping to hear the opinion on the state or probably the potentials of AI in other places say Africa rather than US & China or did I miss something?

[@juliandelgadim]

This podcast is making me smarter everyday, definitely

[@rahul_jani]

An excellent talk. Great questions, I like how you kept the personal questions to the end. Great way to run a show by starting at the IQ end of the spectrum and closing it with the EQ end.

[@AnimeshSharma1977]

Thanks Lex! I think this was the most positive podcast of yours with practical advice to deal with future both at an individual (learn to plumb;) to social (having trust in each other to deal with global issues)

[@justinmallaiz4549]

Wow.. that was fantastic...Kai-fu has Incredible insight, advice, knowledge even outside his expertise... I loved his answers to the very last... 👍

[@nb8298]

This podcast was so good, and a very candid overview of potential future scenarios. Sadly the, "If we start to prepare now" never happened and here we are in 2023 with histrionics around AI at an all time high. Podcasts from 4/5 years ago on AI appear to have a more solid scalable strategy on how to manage the machine revolution.

[@JousefM]

Thanks for this episode Lex :)

[@filmerd]

Man I'm about halfway through, but this is crazy enlightening about how China handles their infrastructure considering their national infrastructure bank is the world's largest. Great interview.

[@sabofx]

Great talk Lex! I appreciate Kai-Fu's openness! Thank you!

[@adods4058]

High quality leadership represented by Kai-Fu Lee. To be a CEO of a company like google, you have to be bold with excellent communication skills that represent the company's brand.

[@Kakerate2]

If I could ask AGI anything, it would be "what do you want to create today?"

[@harratreco]

Severely underrated comment

[@Kakerate2]

@@harratrecoI sat in bed listening to the whole interview, and when Lex asked that I was ALL IN on that being his response!

[@Miomomo100]

Lex bro, like always your interview ! God is good

[@IgnatPenshin]

Просто кайфули, а не интервью!!

[@GeoffreyProfessional]

Loved the conversation. Thanks, Lex!

[@OutOfNamesToChoose]

29:00 I'm going to have to disagree with that. The true test for which companies are better is to have them compete in in a free market. That's not something that has happened, as the CCP severely limits competition from foreign companies in order to nurture growth in its own natively owned and controlled businesses. On an unrelated note, I wish him the best and hope his health improves.

[@sahebjotsingh6306]

Very good questions, especially the starting ones, chinese soul, russian soul, differences etc. Thanks for this :)

[@varunverma744]

Thank you so much for these.

[@Reformed_Zuko]

started as Kaifu Lee, ended up as my Shifu Lee

[@valleynomad]

Although I may not agree everything Dr. KF Lee said, this is the most thorough interview with him in recent years. Thanks!

[@anypercentdeathless]

Video starts with Lee touting the "execution-oriented, result-oriented" character of the Chinese.

[@DVHdrums]

I wish I could be as well spoken as this gentleman. And English is no doubt not his primary language.

[@jamieheiney8901]

Copying is definitely underrated here in the USA. I think patent laws are too strong. They stifle progress and implementation of innovations. Amazing interview, great questions from the host. The pace of the interview was also very good. The guest was very interesting and provided a clear and insightful perspective on similarities and difference between USA and China without being political or petty.

[@williamramseyer9121]

Incredible interview. Lex draws out knowledge from his guests that goes beyond the usual rote answers. Lex, when will you interview Einstein (AI version, of course)? My coments: 1. Kai-Fu expresses a reasoned approach to the big power conflict, but as Thucydides wrote in discussing the civil war in Corcyra (part of the Athens/Sparta war), “Words had to change their ordinary meaning…reckless audacity came to be considered courage; prudent hesitation, specious cowardice; moderation was held to be a cloak for unmanliness….The advocate of extreme measures was always trustworthy; his opponent a man to be suspected.” 2. What is the effect of censorship on information gathering systems? For example, can a financial AI predict stock prices effectively when political information is removed from the data flow? Or can an autonomous driving system work when unauthorized political demonstrations do not show up on the map? Also, those who censor will know more about actual events than the general population, giving them more power, but also making their decisions difficult to implement as the general population will have a flawed understanding of why those decisions were made. 3. If love is more important than numbers, as Kai-Fu expressed, then what happens to a number based AI when it asks, “why do humans often value love of other humans more than numbers?” In Mary Shelly’s Frankenstein, the artificial being hounded his creator to create a companion for him, and killed the scientist’s family and friends when he refused. Thank you. William L. Ramseyer

[@formatcvt3592]

спасибо, дружище, за это интервью =)

[@kevinrandalrulach]

Clever guy. Sounds smart. Thanks for uploading.

[@rpanerio]

Lex, thank-you for all you do to bring us world class pod casts. I have learned so much from you, Joe Rogan, Eric Weinstein and Peter Thiel. You have truly enriched my world.

[@exacognitionai]

Mr. Lee is a very intuitively intelligent guy. Many in advanced AI development including at Google and in US acedemia live in a self inflicted innovation echo chamber avoiding extreme diversity of innovation as a waste of time. China is rapidly learning to embrace this concept to balance out their culture of determination. They will ultimately win the global AI race without the fear of reaching into the unknown first and then worrying about all the reasons to not do so after the fact.

[@Py-dr2fv]

wow, how did you contact and get him. great interview

[@jorger6321]

Exceptional talk! Great job.

[@gweliver]

Lex, who will you interview next that is the most experienced (“the BEST”) in geo politics to address the concerns that Kai-Fu Lee poses? (1:05:00 +/-)?

[@WolfBoy2700]

This was a great episode, thank you!!

[@anypercentdeathless]

Great interview, thanks a lot. However... ...an inordinate amount of comparing between U.S. and China-always about which is better, in what areas, why. (Touch on it here and there, sure; but curious how much Li keeps coming back to it.) Very informative interview. Thx, again.

[@tz1938]

more views and comments on this great episode from the early days of Lex plz 🙌

[@acidburnburn]

Many thanks for the podcast. One thing was very strange though - how Lex plugs Russia here and there during the interview, although it has little to none impact in AI area.

[@shivapazoki1881]

Thank you for this. really enjoyed it....

[@caixiuying8901]

1:14:38 right in my feels

[@sebastiansotto7632]

Amazing interview. Thank you Lex