Alex Garland: Ex Machina, Devs, Annihilation, and the Poetry of Science | Lex Fridman Podcast #77

Alex Garland, writer and director of many imaginative and philosophical films from the dreamlike exploration of human self-destruction in the movie Annihilation to the deep questions of consciousness and intelligence raised in the movie Ex Machina, which to me is one of the greatest movies on artificial intelligence ever made. I'm releasing this podcast to coincide with the release of his new series called Devs that will premiere this Thursday, March 5, on Hulu as part of "FX on Hulu". It explores many of the themes this very podcast is about: from quantum mechanics to artificial life to simulation to the modern nature of power in the tech world.
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PODCAST INFO:
Podcast website:
lexfridman.com/podcast
Apple Podcasts:
apple.co/2lwqZIr
Spotify:
spoti.fi/2nEwCF8
RSS:
lexfridman.com/feed/podcast/
Full episodes playlist:
• Lex Fridman Podcast
Clips playlist:
• Lex Fridman Podcast Clips
EPISODE LINKS:
Devs: hulu.tv/2x35HaH
Devs Twitter: / devs_fxonhulu
Annihilation: hulu.tv/3ai9Eqk
Ex Machina: www.netflix.com/title/80023689
Alex IMDb: www.imdb.com/name/nm0307497/
Alex Wiki: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Ga...
OUTLINE:
0:00 - Introduction
3:42 - Are we living in a dream?
7:15 - Aliens
12:34 - Science fiction: imagination becoming reality
17:29 - Artificial intelligence
22:40 - The new "Devs" series and the veneer of virtue in Silicon Valley
31:50 - Ex Machina and 2001: A Space Odyssey
44:58 - Lone genius
49:34 - Drawing inpiration from Elon Musk
51:24 - Space travel
54:03 - Free will
57:35 - Devs and the poetry of science
1:06:38 - What will you be remembered for?
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[@lexfridman]

I really enjoyed this conversation with Alex. Here's the outline: 0:00 - Introduction 3:42 - Are we living in a dream? 7:15 - Aliens 12:34 - Science fiction: imagination becoming reality 17:29 - Artificial intelligence 22:40 - The new "Devs" series and the veneer of virtue in Silicon Valley 31:50 - Ex Machina and 2001: A Space Odyssey 44:58 - Lone genius 49:34 - Drawing inpiration from Elon Musk 51:24 - Space travel 54:03 - Free will 57:35 - Devs and the poetry of science 1:06:38 - What will you be remembered for?

[@AF-sb3jk]

I get what he's saying about viewing reality as objective but what we are seeing is subjective. Things like visualizations, day dreams or dreams themselves aren't real but at the same time affect us in a real way. So the dream is real because we've created it with our minds with neurons etc firing it, but how we interpret our own creations in our minds is subjective. Reality is a painting, we all just interpret it differently. A computer will see a bunch of interactions on a part of the painting and it will register as a data set. Humans will see the same thing, and it will be the same thing, but humans have created a higher level of what that data set means, meaning the color blue. The color blue in our brain or the idea is just a set of data, but so the idea itself actually exist in the physical world.

[@JorgeGonzalez-so8zu]

Love the podcast!!! Especially this one with a blend of film and science 👍

[@tylerprince6250]

So awesome Lex! Been waiting so long to hear a podcast with Garland! Great job man!

[@maxlieberman578]

David Deutsch please!

[@guysimple8491]

What movie alien you are talking about at the begining? When he describing, like he wanted to create most unhuman alien.

[@filipsiroky4439]

I saw Ex Machina 5 years ago shortly before sending applications for university programs. If I didn't see it, I would not have started studying CS and AI. I did not even consider that path before but Ex Machina made me think and realize that the impact of AI can be immense. Today, I work as CERN Fellow optimizing particle accelerators with machine learning. Thank you so much for that huge inspiration that shaped my life, Alex!

[@_etranger9500]

You just reminded me of the possibilities, thank you!

[@archangecamilien1879]

Haha...interesting...I wouldn't have thought of that...I hear of archaeologists who only followed that path because of Indiana Jones...

[@AH-yu2pi]

What is CS?

[@mattgilbert7347]

Thanks for doing your part to hasten our extinction, Filip ;)

[@pv4343]

A H counter strike... Joking 😂. Computer science

[@hotchd1]

Just finished Devs. Masterpiece. Came back to rewatch this.

[@yotty97]

Disagree. Devs was disappointing. Ex machina is an absolute masterpiece however

[@jeanwesleynew]

@@yotty97 what about it disappointed you? I personally loved Devs. But I'm curious why you disliked it.

[@yotty97]

@@jeanwesleynew the story was decent it was more the pacing, the acting and the sub standard dialogue that put me off

[@wat_matters]

Strongly agree. A masterpiece.

[@michaelcooney7687]

Debs was too rushed and trite... The Russian spy was accepted, baited, caught, interrogated, executed and "almost" made disappear inside an episode... That's a movie in itself... The ""security henchman" was a psychopath that got involved in scuffles with spy manager... in a car park 🙃 I'm sure it could have been a little more professionally written... There a too many "alternate universal alternatives" to slick down the super 8 version of many parts of the series... Ex Machina was a tour de force.....

[@WarlordRising]

One of the best screenwriters of our time. Excellent director as well.

[@FartinHolesInMyUndies]

This podcast has stood to further my confidence in garland as a true cinematic artist in today’s environment of reboots and schlock

[@MindShackleFilms]

Clicked this so fast, Alex is a genius.

[@thomasaghotmail]

The more I listen to Alex Garland, the more I think he is a rarity. Like Coppola. Or Kubrick. Amazing mindset.

[@simonegreco4620]

Devs is one of the most beautiful things i've ever seen, please keep going with it

[@chrisconnor8086]

alex has created some of my favorite works of art and is a true genius

[@bec1681]

I remember reading The Beach years and years ago and thinking every single word was so perfectly crafted. What an incredible writer. I wish he'd write more novels. Alex Garland takes our strongest intuitions and curiosities, and levels them up intellectually and creatively in the coolest ways. An absolute God in the league of sci fi.

[@TheEditorsMusic]

Lex "That's Beautiful" Fridman

[@d4nky967]

Perfect

[@TheEditorsMusic]

d4nky *thats beautiful

[@matangox]

He tends to overuse the word "beautiful". It usually does not bother me unless he is speaking with scientists.

[@LeonTh3Duke]

Kicking myself for only stumblng upon this interview now. Garland is my favorite director of this generation. Always love to hear him talk about films and just general topics on the themes/ideas in them. The questions asked here are really great.

[@xemy1010]

I'm here after watching Ex Machina for the 2nd time, and this is the first time seeing the director interviewed. Love how how down to earth he is at the same time as being perceptive. Lex's channel is a goldmine.

[@gbramos]

Lex I’m not finished yet but I find this conversation extremely profound and honest. There is a certain amount of emotion this has provoked and I want to thank you for the time an effort you put into getting these individuals on the podcast.

[@gbramos]

I’ve never seen any of his work but I intend to watch all of it now.

[@descending524]

One of the best director interviews I've ever seen, big love for Mr. Garland

[@potatoface4698]

Fascinating to listen to this 3 years later. Lex mentioned this episode in a recent interview with Sam Altman (CEO of OpenAi).

[@jaysonwallace7865]

This man is a cinematic genius. I’ve seen everything he’s created and directed and they are all amazing. Ex machina, annihilation, devs and men. All the films and the miniseries made me think more than any other films or shows have done. I look forward to seeing all he creates in his life. A lot of people talk about the state of film and television in the time we live and how everything is sequels, reboots and remakes. But in a world with lots of unoriginality you have people like Alex Garland, Quinton Tarantino and Christopher Nolan. Who are masters of the craft.

[@halcyondaystunes]

I'm hooked on Alex Garland work...and DEVS was simply amazing and the way he makes his work look and the soundtracks are fantastic..Thanks so much for this interview...

[@seanmccracken8517]

Wow now that ive watched hundreds of hours of lex, this episode is incredibly undervalued.

[@byronwilliams7977]

one of his best episodes

[@hy-sky]

So this is where the devs folks have been hanging out. I’ve seen this show 5 times and still obsessed

[@michaelgrayrn4579]

I'm a Home Hospice nurse and drive around each day listening to you as my current primary influencer. Thanks again Doctor.

[@gateauxq4604]

GAH this guy is just wrecking my mind with stories that actually resonate with me. Devs continues this pacing and depth but with a pacing reminiscent of Mr Robot. His level Is amazing

[@MrJagermeister]

Gateaux Q Huge “Mr. Robot” fan here (I think it has taken my #1 spot of all time, after rewatching all four seasons again with the knowledge of the finale). “The Leftovers is probably #2. “DEVS” is phenomenal, and I expect it’s gonna stick the landing tonight in the finale. Can’t wait to watch it again, with the knowledge of *it’s* finale.

[@johnstifter]

I really liked at the beginning when Alex Garland, describes his take on an Alien. An alien typically means to be a creature from a faraway place what if it was more alien in that it is from a faraway state of being.

[@Marctersmantoll]

I felt alone after seeing Annihilation, because everybody - online and otherwise - were talking about the aliens motivation. If it was evil. The look in its eyes in the end. I felt like the way Alex Garland is describing his thoughts on aliens. Like it just happened on earth. Even crashlanded. No motivation at al. Just being itself, so to speak. Being and reacting. No evil plan.

[@parapoliticos52]

You felt alone cause everyone else understood it as a hubristic bad parody of Stalker.

[@Nautilus1972]

If you look at the actions of mankind we are far more evil.

[@johnmhuizar]

Yeah, people keep ascribing agency and personhood to the alien and the shimmer, but it's more like our realm is brushing up against another one in a particular spot and the ecosystems are mixing. Like brackish waters where a river meets the sea.

[@user-nr1vz9hz8n]

Came here 5min after finishing devs, the show. Such a beautiful art piece.

[@maddonotcare]

Can't thank you enough for the podcast, since finding about it a month ago I can't stop listening to it. Great pace, great choice of questions. Also the fact that you are able to get so many great minds on your show with such a tight frequency it's absolutely amazing

[@keylanoslokj1806]

best channel on youtube.

[@cooperw839]

Since you guys discussed lone geniuses, I should remind you to get John Carmack on, especially since he’s working on agi now.

[@cooperw839]

@ModestDeity Carmack was on Rogan, which was great, but I'd really like to hear Lex chat with him.

[@aigen-journey]

Absolutely ! That would be an interesting discussion and hopefully a long one.

[@invanorm]

Hell yes, make it happen Lex.

[@PatrickOliveras]

He wants to help with AGI but I doubt that he's even close to trying to approach that at the moment. Right now he's trying to catch up with the current research. Give him time

[@edwardbrownstien8741]

Yes yes please have John Carmack on. I'm glad to see others yearning his presence on the podcast.

[@jb_]

I watched the final episode of Devs last night. The realisation of this beautiful piece of writing left me in awe. Absolute masterstroke of cinema and an instant classic. This was a fantastic and revealing conversation, thanks to you both!

[@programclu1]

Alex is such an interesting person. This podcast was amazing! Could have listened for hours.

[@anastasiajj9399]

"science is poetry". thank you, Lex, so much for this conversation.

[@highburyful]

Brilliant content once again, you're heading in an upward trajectory, well done Lex. I recommend this podcast to anyone I know!!

[@coolstuffin5]

your guest selection must be lauded! ty lex

[@nickfrederiksen4763]

Awesome work Lex! Will be re-watching those two movies again. You have to do a follow up with Alex again, this interview was so interesting. Thanks again.

[@filmfredrik]

What an inspiring podcast! Garland is truly deep thinker with such an appreciation of both art and science.

[@alek282]

Annihilation and Ex-Machina are 2 of my most favorite movies, watched Sunshine not too long ago and also really liked it. I did not realize they were all made by the same person, now so excited for Devs!

[@zoltanczesznak976]

First: Lex, your podcast is brilliant, im watching it from the beginning (tho later subscribed), and these are all conversations I'd love to have myself! You bring them to us. Second: I love the arc how the conversation's got more and more like a conversation between buddies, you are a very talented interviewer 👊 ! It would be fun to watch some new rounds of conversations while you and your guests are having some drinks! :)

[@ryz177]

This is by far the most inspirational conversation in this channel... Kudos!

[@mishakabanchuk8887]

Oh Man, thank you so much for getting Alex Garland on the podcast!

[@jake8473]

I love all of Alex's work, but I think Annihilation is my favorite. Loved the interview, as I've never heard/seen him before! Seems like a thoughtful guy, which isn't surprising if you follow his work.

[@stevemuzak8526]

Read about his grand father.

[@user-bd6eo9wk9j]

Devs is the best TV in years.

[@JokerJay1990]

This is quickly becoming one of my favorite podcasts to listen to. The quality of the guests is superb.

[@UKLady]

Attention to detail is important to me, too, it’s one of the reasons I appreciated Mr Robot so much. I am listening to your podcasts while I work from home. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and the knowledge of others. You are a gentleman (I suspect 90% of the time) and a scholar.

[@MrJagermeister]

Geneva “Mr. Robot” was so good because all of it’s story was written out before the first episode aired. They didn’t have to find reasons to keep it going. And Esmail directed literally every episode of seasons 2, 3, and 4. That’s something I’m seeing in “DEVS” as well. It’s a limited series, entirely written and directed by Alex Garland (and with many of his frequent and previous collaborators). And it is inherently layered for repeat viewings as you come to discover what’s really going on, and what people really mean when they say them. Can’t wait for the finale tonight to see how it wraps up.

[@UKLady]

MrJagermeister thank you, I’m starting Devs this weekend, I owe it to myself! We need more stimulating things to watch, such as this, and not the monotonous droll of celebrity and reality television.

[@UKLady]

MrJagermeister watched it in two days, bloody fabulous! We need MORE! I want to be in the Devs team!

[@oncedidactic]

Obviously this was a special episode amongst the special series for which we are all grateful (Thank you, Lex). But what struck me was the ongoing quiet tenor of humor running through the conversation that broke out at moments "generous spirit of the question" / "gunpoint" (1:07:07) between two friendly but not completely overlapping thinkers. It underscores the humility and humanity.

[@d-5037]

I really enjoyed the novel The Beach by Alex Garland. Very vivid and captivating. Much better and deeper than the movie. I also have The Tesseract on my shelf and I'm looking forward reading it. All in all I consider Garland to be one of the most interesting artists today.

[@KarpKomet]

Almost 300k Subs!! Well deserved for this aggressively good nerdy podcast. Seriously gives me a touch of hope

[@issyjas3309]

Now approaching 2million, some serious word of mouth publicity taking hold.

[@powerpig99]

Another great talk, thanks you! I loved Ex Machina as well and pulsed to watch annihilation and came back to finish watching. Beautiful mind.

[@hn6187]

Annihilation the film is very similar to the book it is based on, in action and description. Kudos to VanderMeer. And Garland et al, as it was brilliantly written, adapted and made.

[@kimlovesfun]

Ex Machina is one of my all time favorite. I barely watch movies these days (even once) ... I've seen it 3 times. Thank you for making it and thanks to Lex for the interview. I recommend it to everyone. I'm hoping more physiological films like this will be made. There's no need for constant explosions 💥 in movies. Please, please keep writing and making genius films like it.:)

[@daidaitastic]

Thank you for asking such excellent questions. I don't believe I've seen Alex Garland so engaged in other interviews.

[@brianjanson3498]

Ex Machina is one of my favorite films ever.

[@ScatterlingOfA]

Thanks for this interview, I had no idea how discerning Alex Garland is. A far-reaching discussion on the effects of power on human nature.

[@chewbrocka6833]

Your face at the 55:04 for his response for free will had me dying

[@korhanalparslan8730]

Wow just wow. An amazing listen, I could not stop from the first second on. Excellent.

[@simonstrandgaard5503]

I'm a fan of your mind blowing movies. Very interesting background story. Please make a follow-up interview with Alex Garland!

[@cinziamacchi]

Ex Machina: one of my fav AI movies too!!!! Thx for this interview Lex!

[@lconocIast]

Cinzia Macchi Ex Machina is the best movie

[@MrMikey808]

Fav of all time

[@mikejordan2428]

I love Alex Garland! I love The Beach! Thanks for having him on!

[@kit888]

In the 2001 novelization by Arthur C Clarke, it is explained that HAL was driven insane because it was forced to hide the actual mission from the astronauts, which was against its nature.

[@je6403]

Yeah it seems weird to me that "insanity" was used to describe HAL when he has no sanity, sanity being mentally healthy. I would say HAL is a computer without sanity because there is no mental dimension to HAL. He's a perfectly logical system who will function as commanded or programmed.

[@kit888]

HAL's insanity manifested as him predicting certain equipment would fail. The astronauts checked the equipment and found no sign of impending failure - this is in the movie. HAL was going schizo. In the book, this was replicated on an identical HAL on Earth - when ordered to lie, it became erratic. HAL lip read the astronauts discussing partially shutting him down because they didn't trust HAL anymore. HAL saw this as a death threat so he decided to kill them.

[@godless-clump-of-cells]

I've read every novel of Clarke's Odyssey series. These books are highly cherished by me. I would love to see film adaptations of 2061: Odyssey Three and 3001: The Final Odyssey, but only if it's done by competent people who don't take liberties with the source material.

[@billvegas8146]

@@kit888 Actually HAL cheated at chess before the false equipment report.

[@mynewcolour]

So like Ava, it had a corrupting scenario imposed upon it.

[@JESSEverything]

I really love all these subjects you guys tackle. Seriously my favorite podcast.

[@danishkhalid9255]

Thank you Lex for doing this podcast, your questions are always so thoughtful and simple to understand.

[@JuntaParty]

Alex Garland is the most humbly interesting person. Pleasure to watch this interview.

[@JimONeill]

Bravo! One of the best philosophical discussions I've ever seen. Absolutely fascinating. Thank you Lex and Alex for sharing your thoughts with the rest of us. It was exhilarating to watch.

[@TheEbonyEngineer]

25:50 Love this moment. Sharing and also love Alex's response. Love it.

[@gavinbinding]

Great conversation. I stuck with JRE for conversations with people like Alex and, as they've become less frequent on JRE, you've successfully syphoned my attention towards your channel. I'm excited for you and the direction the podcast appears to be going in.

[@10dread37]

Thanks Lex for this amazing interview! And what a beautiful mind Alex is!!!

[@Openhandwizard]

Absolutely beautiful conversation. Great podcast Lex. Thank you for your amazing work.

[@goodsirknight]

Brilliant interview, well done Lex. Alex is a humble genius, very eloquent and has interesting views - don't agree with him on the whole Free Will not existing thing, but maybe i've no choice but to feel that way about it :)

[@xSayPleasex]

Is it possible when some people discuss Free Will not existing what they really believe is that the world, in a broad sense, is largely deterministic? I really find it a difficult position to argue that free will is absent even in the most micro individual decisions such as at what millisecond will I do a particularly uneventful action as an example.

[@goodsirknight]

@@xSayPleasex I think the problem around believing there is no free will is down to materialism - the modern myth of our times, i.e. that the world is merely a machine being played out by inert particles of matter following fairly simple rules leaving no room for anything else such as free will, consciousness is an illusion and that which gives the world meaning is just the anthropomorphic projection of an animal struggling with its own pointless existence. And it really is a hangover from the Cartesian worldview of the 17th century, denying the spirit within ourselves, the sentience in matter, and reducing everything to parts. Its a shame that so many people fall into this trap without even realising the undeniable and deep short comings materialism has as an explanatory tool

[@Len124]

The fact that Alex Garland could make as many changes from the source material as he did during his adaptation of Annihilation, yet still nail that tone, told me he truly understood the books, their deeply unsettling cosmic horror, and the underlying themes as they relate to the characters. If you enjoyed the movie: PLEASE read the Southern Reach trilogy. It's among my favourite modern science fiction and Vandermeer does cosmic horror better than anyone aside from H.P. Lovecraft himself.

[@poneill65]

I think Alex will (potentially) be remembered as someone who, through his art and intellect, provided a doorway into the beauty and awe of science for many people. People like Alex and Carl Sagan are rare and essential conduits to expanding the mental possibilities of a species that is unfortunately very prone to intellectual laziness and magical thinking. If the light of human consciousness is to survive and prosper we desperately need these benevolent welcoming guides out of our ignorance. His moment hasn't arrived yet as such moments rely on a confluence of talent with events but, when we (soon) face technological tipping points that unsettle society, such a person could use their narrative and artistic skills to present a more hopeful/alluring perspective of the transition, opening minds to possibilities and averting a backlash into fear and ignorance.

[@freethot333]

Thanks so much folks. Awesome discussion! I instantly felt that Ava's smile was about her sense of relief at having achieved personal freedom.... essentially a "Free at last" moment

[@svensvenkill]

An excellent and thought provoking interview between two considered, well meaning and intelligent people. Thank you, I needed this.

[@devonk298]

I wish I had enough hours in the day to catch up on all your podcast. You have the most interesting guest of any podcast series I've heard. ty

[@Greeeebs]

Perfect to watch after Devs, really glad that Garland was down to do a YT podcast

[@gnollio]

Alex Garland is a fantastic story teller capable of translating complex cutting edge science into amazing art that both educates and entertains. As a former programmer from Silicon Valley I very much appreciate his explorations into these very interesting, scary and exciting fields.

[@vibrato]

For someone who is not even a scientist, this is one of the best interviews on the Lex Fridman podcast. Alex is wonderfully articulate and well aware of the subjects he makes amazing films on.

[@rayhartman9486]

What an absolutely stunning conversation..thank you gentlemen.

[@kevlaaaaar]

Privileged to listen to such a great conversation, fantastic guest and host.... 👏🏻

[@Marky745]

I'd say Alex enjoyed being asked such intelligent questions. He seems appreciative of your depth of understanding. Such a great interview Lex. Love your stuff 👍😎

[@gallerksee]

I think your podcast is one of the most undervalued thing available for free right now

[@menzithesonofhopehlope7201]

After watch Ex-Machina. I quit my job and pursued a Computer Science Degree in hopes to specialize in Artificial Intelligence.

[@aidan6480]

That’s an awesome story dude. I hope you keep pursuing your dreams and I hope you’re safe.

[@richyrich8939]

Woah

[@Nautilus1972]

And destroy your species?

[@xemy1010]

@@Nautilus1972 ChatGPT says... "Hi"

[@Lagruell]

Great interview as always. Thank you both for this.

[@AZx_0]

Thank you!! This needs to happen again asap 🙌🏽

[@GonzoGolf]

My favorite interview so far, keep up the great work Lex

[@samuelec]

It's always a great pleasure to watch your interviews they are interesting, inspiring and more.. Keep going! :)

[@gelfand1904]

Beautifully meaningful and fulfilling conversation. Thank you!

[@bui340]

I love this slow and long format!

[@jackbower2204]

I never leave comments on youtube videos, but I just had to say this. Lex, your podcasts are fucking great. As a computer science undergrad, I find these conversations both intriguing and humbling. My understanding of the subject is still rudimentary, but i understand enough to comprehend most of the concepts discussed. You filled a void in the podcast landscape, and your combination of both technical and philosophical questions is fantastic, don't change it. Keep up the good work!

[@avedic]

What a GREAT conversation! I've been a huge fan of his films for a while now....but never knew a thing about Garland himself until watching this. I'm impressed, though not entire surprised, at how intelligent, informed, and thoughtful he is about the subjects he delves into in his films. He's a pretty impressive human being on many levels. And this was an excellent conversation.....with _great_ questions from Lex!

[@Infected8585]

Such a unique and captivating conversation...

[@franktfrisby]

I love seeing scientific film writers try their best to get it right. Good job!

[@-LightSmit]

I went through so many interviews and this is the best one thus far. 🕯 Thank you Edit: I wish this was 2 hrs -.-

[@avedic]

I've seen the first 4 episodes of Devs so far........and it is VERY good. So so good. Can't recommend enough.

[@spandexleotard]

Super interview. Thanks Lex.

[@SaugaTalks]

Having studied physics and quantum mechanics in college and am speaking with AI and Tech experts and practitioners today. Lex's videos are inspiring in a sense of the audience on KZbin wanting to hear smart people talking! :) Thank you, Lex!

[@Magdalena8008s]

Sam Esmail and Alex Garland. My favorite autour writer/directors today. Throw in Benson and Morehead to a certain degree.

[@honestinsky]

Love your channel Lex. Your channel is my new favorite. Keep up the great work bro : )

[@robertgatsby9755]

Lex you beautiful man. It sounds as though Alex caught himself in the beginning when he was speaking in absolutes but was not able to stop himself as the pod cast continued. He also created two of my favorite movies so Alex thank you.

[@mathiaswagner7125]

I just finished my thesis about the portrayal of AI in sci-fi a month ago and coverd Ex Machina and 2001 as well. Wished I saw this video before i handed the thesis in. Just a great interview. Thanks!

[@tekmentor]

Thanks, Lex I couldn't believe you got Alex in the podcast!!!

[@byronwilliams7977]

To date still one of my favorite episodes

[@byronwilliams7977]

Mine too

[@JamesWattMusic]

Devs is insane !!