Peter Singer: Suffering in Humans, Animals, and AI | Lex Fridman Podcast

[@lexfridman]

I really enjoyed this conversation with Peter. Here's the outline: 0:00 - Introduction 5:25 - World War II 9:53 - Suffering 16:06 - Is everyone capable of evil? 21:52 - Can robots suffer? 37:22 - Animal liberation 40:31 - Question for AI about suffering 43:32 - Neuralink 45:11 - Control problem of AI 51:08 - Utilitarianism 59:43 - Helping people in poverty 1:05:15 - Mortality

[@benl.5790]

Lex you inspire me. Thanks to your podcasts I have already become a more disciplined and productive individual. Thank you.

[@milesteg8627]

Lex, I love your conversations, but a small critique: It seems like you spent more time here crafting questions with much longer caveats than usual. I'd like to have heard Peter Singer talk more.

[@wearemany73]

I really enjoy your ideas & MO. I made a few “trolling” comments to an interview you had with Chomsky. I regret making those comments & on reflection came from an inner frustration caused by (..but by no means excused by..) environmental stresses. I apologise to your listeners & YOU personally. Kindest regards, Michael.

[@suboxguy999]

Great job man your disposition is great and should be mirrored by all. Kindness gets overlooked far to easily but I think it’s gonna get better and better

[@benstrouse3805]

Bro you can easily thrive on a vegan diet, I'm a 220lb athlete and have maintained muscle mass for the 5yrs I've been vegan. I hope this conversation persuades you to try a whole food vegan diet, good luck!

[@mj-jo8es]

'ANIMAL LIBERATION' is a life-changing book. Thank you Peter Singer for writing it! :) ...and, thanks Lex for having this remarkable human being on your podcast.

[@azkadeliaray521]

Singer thinks it's okay to kill babies.

[@verito2019]

More human beings like him are desperately needed it in this world!

[@nicolasuribestanko]

@@azkadeliaray521 It all depends... Was the baby born blind? Missing limbs? Mentally retarded? There are a bunch of situations where killing babies is the right decision, and in the best interests of the babies in question. You cannot be so absolutist in your condemnation.

[@TheNoblot]

robots do not grow neither artificial intelligence they are a 1 realm humans are a 1+1 = 2 realm men women. robots are asexual.

[@stylembonkers1094]

Liberated a few insects and bacteria have you pfffft!

[@ST-gd4eq]

Amazing podcast with Singer. Definitely going vegan after this! Thanks so much, Lex!

[@abdi8543]

How have you been the last past 3 weeks in regards to your decision?

[@wbrown5165]

A Jew interviews a Jew, and the best thing you can think of doing is going vegan? This is very interesting. Good luck with the veganism.

[@KevinUchihaOG]

@@wbrown5165 what?

[@Glooberloob]

@@wbrown5165 what?

[@Kaizsu_]

@@abdi8543 Not the guy you were asking but i've been vegan for around 5 years now, have had multiple blood tests and everything was fine, my iron was actually slightly higher than normal. I've gained 14kg of mostly muscle since I started and I feel pretty much the exact same, I dont really buy into people saying going vegan gives you way more energy or other huge health benefits. Maybe some people really do feel a lot better, but I personally noticed no difference except for the liberation from guilt I felt from paying for the exploitation of animals. I've hit a 140kg highbar squat (ass to grass) for 5 reps, and can rep 100kg on bench as well as +32kg weighted pullups for 5 reps at 70kg bodyweight A vegan/plant based diet definitely requires more planning and mindfulness of diversifying your diet enough to get adequate macro/micronutrients than a regular omnivorous one, but if you do it properly there are no downsides healthwise or with regards to resistance training/building muscle. I don't look down on people who aren't vegetarian/vegan, and dislike the fact that other people do, but I hope more people will begin to realise that it's a lot more sustainable for the environment and is very nice to the animals :)

[@rcwalsh]

I'm so glad you got Peter Singer on the show! Lex, you attract the best guests. You are the most amazing interviewer. My queue is FULL of your interesting conversations I'm excited to hear.

[@xiaomanyc1391]

Wow that's nice, thanks for replying, you can send a message to my administrator James on watsap to earn in crypto, Stocks and ETFs. + 1... 6... 6... 2... 2... 6 ... 0... 3...0 ... 7... 3.... he's excellent at what he does, tell him I referred you to him. His passionate strategies are top notch.🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸

[@carloscervantes836]

The Legend Peter Freaking SInger, love this man.

[@lillytaylor8262]

Thank you for including peter singer! I love him, and you!

[@AAjax]

Thank-you for your intro message, encouraging good-faith discourse and discouraging mockery. This is desperately needed.

[@POSTPARADISE.]

Australia represent! Peter's one of my favourite intellectuals. Currently reading Ethics in the Real World and his arguments against meat consumption have made me seriously reconsider my food choices. Awesome to see him on the podcast Lex 👊🏻

[@JohnnyNoPockets]

He claims murdering human babies is fine. But the poor wittle animaaaalllsssssssss. So much for morality you sicko.

[@beatleswithaz6246]

It’s been a year, you vegan yet?

[@freddycruzjr]

Keep up the great work Lex I really enjoy listening and learning things from you and your guest. Most people including myself don't get to have highly intelligent conversations with people on the topics you cover which are some of my favorite things to think and talk about so it's really nice to listen in on other people having these conversations. I just wanted to let you know that people out there really appreciate what you have been doing and all your hard work putting these talks out there for everyone hear and learn new and different ideas that are not spoken about on regular TV or in the news. I really love your podcast bro

[@HardcorebergO]

Animals are actually suffering. And human being generously overseeing this when it is "convinient". When we harden our emphaty and compasson on machines we are deviating from our best behaviour. Purposly causing harm tonothers just wrong. As soon as we realise that the other being (even it is a machine) is suffering because of our action and we keep doing it there is somekind of self destruction. Our integrity is damaged by that. This is how I see of course.

[@HopHeadScott]

Singer describes suffering as a conscious state. We have not yet explained consciousness. Therefore, we cannot explain what suffers apart from our phenomenology.

[@charlesbourgoigne2130]

Don’t forget to mention human suffering which is also very real in civilized countries. Speaking of inaffordable health care, for example; or the suffering in seniority homes where no one is looking. Or child abuse. It is grotesque everyone prefers animals before people or children. It’s the infinite jest society I guess.

[@HardcorebergO]

@@charlesbourgoigne2130 yeah human suffering is real. Yet we not perplexed if someone says "hey stop hurting that kid for pleasure" yet most of us baffled if someone mentioned animals over an omlette. That is why it is important to make stance for the unheards. But you right! People must not be forgotten.

[@HopHeadScott]

​@@HardcorebergO And more baffled when someone says stop hurting the omelette.

[@HardcorebergO]

@@HopHeadScott yeah, that is also a good point :D

[@susansmith7030]

Wonderful and humane focus on animal suffering which is often ignored and seldom receives academic attention.

[@BreauxSegreto]

Lex, I never get tired of your genuine intent... expanding our knowledge, tolerance and appreciation of all facets in our journey. Thank you for all you do, for us all interested! Peace

[@BIGVINNY99]

Thank you for this interview, love seeing the vegan message reaching different audiences.

[@BIGVINNY99]

Well he talks a bit about it at the beginning and there is a section in the interview where they talk about it. He also highlights the book he wrote about animal liberation which may lead some people to looking into that work. I'm not claiming the whole interview is about that topic but I'm still happy to see it on this podcast. It's not something I was expecting so I just wanted to say thank you to lex for bringing it into his community.

[@mertkusku]

If you need more on that, I would urge you to check the conversation between Peter Singer and Richard Dawkins. It's phenomenal and it's almost exclusively about the "vegan message".

[@peterebel]

Peter Singer? This podcast is becoming one of the most important documents of our time.

[@nickidaisydandelion4044]

I thought that too. I will have to listen to this again later I'm going to put it into my video lists.

[@nickidaisydandelion4044]

This is the Best conversation from all of your conversations and from all conversations I have so far seen in general from anyone who interviews people. I love Dr. Peter Singer he is Amazing he created the animal rights movement which I am part of and I love how sensitive he is in expressing his views. I also love how you asked him the questions and how you shared more about your own views on ethics I think that's absolutely super. Thank you Lex.

[@JohnThomas]

Thanks Liv for an interesting and thought provoking discussion. Peter is such a practical and well reasoned thinker!

[@xiaomanyc1391]

Wow that's nice, thanks for replying, you can send a message to my administrator James on watsap to earn in crypto, Stocks and ETFs. + 1... 6... 6... 2... 2... 6 ... 0... 3...0 ... 7... 3.... he's excellent at what he does, tell him I referred you to him. His passionate strategies are top notch.🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸

[@neilhack10]

Abstaining from animal flesh and byproducts seem like a ethically right thing to do.

[@Xonline9]

I love Peter's work - great shout getting him on here

[@cliohalpin2064]

The first three minutes...what an incredibly intelligent, beautiful, classy human you are. Thank you so much for being you!

[@JohnnyNoPockets]

Except for the murdering human babies part................................................................................................

[@singularity844]

Great intro bro. It’s a good reminder for me not to be mocking and harsh - but engage without negative emotion with the ideas. Thankyou and sorry for failing in the past

[@PinkAmadeus]

This is a phenomenal episode, and Lex, Mr. Fridman, you take the cake.

[@herman3725]

How can you have Peter Singer on and only talk about animal suffering for 3 minutes

[@Sprite_525]

For better or for worse, Lex talks about what’s really upsetting or urgent to him. Death, the meaning of life, and suffering as the hallmark of conscious life, all grip Lex and he can’t help himself around philosophers, he just has to ask them. I find it endearing. But I can see how it’s a “lost opportunity” to ignore Singer’s master subject.

[@livingroomviewing2987]

I got here by way of a moral ethics paper he wrote in '72.

[@sevencostanza3931]

Because Lex Fridman loves to eat MEAT and so Lex not interested in Animal suffering.

[@gabekreider-letterman6528]

As a biology PhD candidate I have been loving the podcasts with biologist that you have been doing. I would love more!

[@boh64735]

Congrats bro. Hope you get it.

[@RobVespa]

It's interesting how I don't recall having heard this individual's name, despite having studied philosophy during school and on my own. I enjoy learning new things, especially when it surprises me (in a positive manner). I look forward to exploring Mr. Singer's work.

[@michaelriojas3831]

His essay “famine, affluence and morality” is very influential in philosophy academia as far as I know

[@afriedli]

I've read some of Peter Singer's essays, and particularly enjoyed his contribution to Coetzee's "The Lives of Animals". In fact, the novel is brilliant and through-provoking, as are most of the accompanying essays. Nonetheless, he's a bit of a loon - too cerebral and idealistic, which tends to make him wildly miss the point when it comes to the realities of the human condition and lived experience. However, we should certainly be grateful that such people exist.

[@DS-uo1zy]

could you elaborate on what you mean with "the realities of the human condition and lived experience"?

[@helenkessler6012]

The commentor should have placed a period between point and when and backspaced back to said punctuation.

[@DS-uo1zy]

@rockster10101 what is a warrior species?😅

[@carnap355]

guys guys so basically steven pinker is so disheveled, indelible and overly indolent so that he doesn't understand the beauteousness of the human nature thank you

[@carnap355]

and by steven pinker i meant peter singer

[@kabirpour]

Wonderful interview with a wonderful human!

[@xiaomanyc1391]

Wow that's nice, thanks for replying, you can send a message to my administrator James on watsap to earn in crypto, Stocks and ETFs. + 1... 6... 6... 2... 2... 6 ... 0... 3...0 ... 7... 3.... he's excellent at what he does, tell him I referred you to him. His passionate strategies are top notch.🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸

[@azkadeliaray521]

Singer thinks it's okay to kill babies.

[@kabirpour]

@@azkadeliaray521 , I am sorry. I had no idea he did and that’s certainly a very bad thing! I will remove my comment then very soon.

[@carnap355]

@@azkadeliaray521 cool

[@valsarff6525]

True Ethics is everything. Yet so very rare. You have my ear.

[@devpats2828]

Missing the white shirt! BTW.. Love your work, you are one of the best hosts - that open-mindedness and patience is something people should pick alongside the knowledge.

[@AndrewKamenMusic]

I love how Singer immediately answered “yes” to whether or not he’d get a BCI 😅 Such a legend 🌱

[@ekszentrik]

His reflections around 20:00 about how you'd be regarded as vegetarian by peers hits close to home. In my case, the chilling effect was less overall societal progress (as it was relatively recent, i.e the early 00s) but rather my specific environment: I decided to become vegetarian at age 9. Even back then I knew I my peers weren't yet mature enough to not bully me for my decision (I also cringed whenever they casually tortured snails etc.). It was compounded by the fact that, being working class myself, I went to an elementary/middle school with quite a working class "macho" culture. Being called girly would have been the best-case scenario, but as it was I simply kept it a secret until it wasn't possible anymore.

[@JimHabash]

Suffering is having years of Lyme disease and it's associated co-infections and inflammation. You trudge on for your family, and take a good day when you get it. Drop all the fun foods and alcohol in life, and hope Covid doesn't finish it. A good day can make you euphoric with appreciation! Imagine having a good day or part of one that is 'normal', as regular people have or you did when you were a kid. You certainly learn appreciation of everything and develop empathy for all others, animals, all life and trees/plants/grass. Seriously. For example,the most beautiful sunset, situation, climate and scenery is hard to appreciate in a state of pain.

[@VenkatasrisaiChandavolu]

Peter understanding on diverse topics is excellent. He answers all the questions with examples, anecdotes, etc. He listens opposite views patiently, and accepts in certain situations it may be true. He could have completely sladhes the conversation saying forget the assumption that robots might become sentient beings, think about animals who we know are definitely sentient beings, and we do nothing. But he answers all questions patiently and answers the best possible solution. If i had the chance, i could have appointed him as cheif ethical officer for OPENAI who is on Fastrack for making AGI possible.

[@SenjiaMurtic]

Peter's definition absolutely brilliant!

[@sgtsnakeeyes11]

didn't talk about animal rights nearly long enough

[@cultofscriabin9547]

Amazing guest !

[@CryptoC4T]

I deeply loved the... intro. I pretty much could predict what Singer will say but the intro was a masterpice.

[@dewdop]

So much love for Lex and his work

[@viviannization]

I remember when On the Beach came out and my parents wanted to watch it. They are escapees from Estonia in the 1940s. Believe me, as a ten year old kid during the Cuban Crisis, we were forced to confront the fact that we might die. Very scary, especially since I grew up in the Estonian diaspora in Canada and was surrounded by very sad stories of those who were deported to Siberia and never made it back.

[@Jesse-lg3xj]

Well spoken intro, Lex. Thanks for what you’re doing

[@xiaomanyc1391]

Wow that's nice, thanks for replying, you can send a message to my administrator James on watsap to earn in crypto, Stocks and ETFs. + 1... 6... 6... 2... 2... 6 ... 0... 3...0 ... 7... 3.... he's excellent at what he does, tell him I referred you to him. His passionate strategies are top notch.🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸

[@lizgichora6472]

Thank you Peter Singer and Lex Fridman.

[@veganworldorder9394]

Great convo although it would have been better to talk more about animal rights and veganism since Peter Singer is a master in those area.

[@HeemiTeRuu]

This was such an enlightening dive into consciousness, Thank you.

[@gnrncrue]

Lex, you have a wonderful and thoughtful prologue that tells us who YOU are. God Bless.

[@mirunahodo4573]

Thank u for this wonderful episode

[@Pistallion1]

Man I wish you had him even longer! Even though I'm not a vegan, you can't deny Peter's ideas are extremely challenging and world-view altering. Truly a great mind

[@Lynkor]

Awesome! Do one with Ken Stanley or Risto Mikkulainen, they're doing really interesting work on neuroevolution, and evolution based method for finding neural architectures that the deep learning community NEEDS to get in contact with more!

[@JRobertoBatista]

It's great to listen to people you disagree with, that's why I'm here right now.

[@danielbuzi7742]

Shinzen Young (a Buddhist meditation teacher and mathematician) describes suffering as follows: Pain x Attachment = Suffering. Attachment is a rejection of the fundamental truth that everything is in a constant state of change. The more we try to hold on to sensations and ideas that we want or the more we try to push away sensations and ideas that we don't want, the more we suffer. To answer whether an AGI suffers, we would need to know whether it constructs the world with nouns (as fixed objects) or sees everything as verbs (ongoing interacting processes). If the AGI could function with a deep understanding of the reality that everything is changing, it may be able to get away without suffering. If it is attached to its goals, if it is bothered that things don't go the way it predicted then it will suffer. There's a lot more to say and I think Shinzen could say it much better. You might consider having him on. If you are interested in ideas of "what is consciousness" and "what is the nature of suffering" he could offer a lot of insight.

[@diveysaini9676]

Great video Lex, can you also talk about consciousness in buddhist or Indian philosophy. They have been studying consciousness for 1000s of years. Interview with Dalai Lama or someone knowledge will be insightful.

[@diveysaini9676]

@@adamgm84 well said Adam, but where is the consciousness within us? If all of us have a conscious observer within us is it on individual or all one? Dalai Lama and other knowledgeable people have answers.

[@diveysaini9676]

@rockster10101 😄

[@p3tr0114]

There's no one I know of that can really talk about that stuff. Maybe the Dalai Lama can. Alan Watts would be a great choice, if he was still alive. RIP

[@diveysaini9676]

@@p3tr0114 check out Swami Sarvapriyananda and Vedenta society.

[@Henrysmith537]

Lex Is actually such a bad ass man

[@nenadjuric8824]

Woah! Just from the introduction I'm impressed by your open-mindednes, Lex!

[@42StevoStyle]

Lex . I enjoy your conversations and hope to meet you someday. I do my best to reach my goals so perhaps will meet. Thanks Steven

[@zanyarzohourian9398]

Thank you so much for the great podcast.

[@talwyn_cc]

Awesome interview here Mr. Lex Fridman.

[@missshroom5512]

I’m with you Lex...fighting the good fight

[@xiaomanyc1391]

Wow that's nice, thanks for replying, you can send a message to my administrator James on watsap to earn in crypto, Stocks and ETFs. + 1... 6... 6... 2... 2... 6 ... 0... 3...0 ... 7... 3.... he's excellent at what he does, tell him I referred you to him. His passionate strategies are top notch.🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸

[@zeytelaloi]

Lex has repeated that line Eric Weinstein said about everything about war being great except for the suffering to several of his guests and I'm glad Peter Singer just immediately said no. "War" in modern history is often just proxy wars between regional and/or super powers (Yemen, Korea), or Western imperialism/neo-colonialism meddling with the local politics of a country in order to secure some resource for themselves (dictators in South America, African conflicts, Iran, etc), some powerful group doing genocide on a weaker group (Rwanda, Kurds, etc) and so on - often leaving massive death and suffering in the wake. That's the true reality of war, just greedy and narcissistic leaders, propaganda/manufactured consent, basic dumb human tribalism on a nation level.

[@Dw4rnold]

telling jerks to unsub. most mad lad sh** ive ever seen ❤️

[@GavGreaves]

Brilliant discussion, thanks for making this video!

[@xiaomanyc1391]

Wow that's nice, thanks for replying, you can send a message to my administrator James on watsap to earn in crypto, Stocks and ETFs. + 1... 6... 6... 2... 2... 6 ... 0... 3...0 ... 7... 3.... he's excellent at what he does, tell him I referred you to him. His passionate strategies are top notch.🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸

[@michaelheffner2853]

Thank You!! Another Interesting conversation...your mastering the art of interviews...well done indeed

[@gbiotaone5814]

I find an attitude throughout singers statements that seems to neglect peoples response to incentives. War brings people together because of a common enemy, the interest against a common enemy is powerful common ground, and that common ground is a basis for powerful trust, and that trust can be used to construct relationships. War isn't the only source of trust, any source of common ground can be. But look at how scarce our sources of common ground are today. I just don't think "we could and we should" will be enough to save anyone from anything.

[@RenzoAlba]

Great convo.. please bring earthling ed to your podcast!

[@Daniel-oj7bx]

well but its not about human feelings its about the animals that suffer - intersting that you feel true when you kill or take some kind of pleasure out of it - but i still like your work despite your cognitive dissonanze

[@xiaomanyc1391]

Wow that's nice, thanks for replying, you can send a message to my administrator James on watsap to earn in crypto, Stocks and ETFs. + 1... 6... 6... 2... 2... 6 ... 0... 3...0 ... 7... 3.... he's excellent at what he does, tell him I referred you to him. His passionate strategies are top notch.🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸

[@avokado9444]

Damn Lex, you know exactly who to interview. Your podcasts should be inducted into the library of congress or something equivalent.

[@stefspijk]

Please have a talk with Rupert Sheldrake, that combination would be just perfect.

[@GarrettX001]

Great podcast

[@BRAUSA]

Well said, you’re doing a great job Lex. Keep it up,

[@AmirHigher]

You F**ing nailed it!

[@kylegushue]

This episode was exceptional.!!

[@pilarclark5337]

Consciousness is the intensity of the understanding of energy in motion Understanding what is under the obvious attraction of motion standing around the obvious forces

[@Iheartdgd]

Pretty funny to think about how that awkward guy from Rogan made a better podcast than Rogan haha, you’re the man Lex.. I am very much looking forward to your future!

[@TheMylittletony]

tbh, the JRE isn't what it used to be.

[@madalianband381]

Hey Lex, I just want to say a few things. 1) There is an experiment similar to your experience with the rumba in which kids' treatment of Furbies (a mechanical toy) vs. inanimate toys is observed since they are programmed to cry if you hold them upside down and to be sad if you ignore them for too long. It's an interesting look at our reactions to machines we know aren't sentient. 2) I have a question for you to consider: Is it possible for AI to mimic consciousness without being conscious? Yes, it could browse the web to look up the responses we are expecting conscious AI to say to us, but in order for it to do that, there has to be some intent - unless, of course, we ask it what a conscious AI would say, and it then uses that question as a prompt into a search engine and effectively finds the answer for us. However, if our question is less direct and we ask it questions like, "How do you feel right now?" and it tells us an emotion because it knows that's what we're looking for regarding testing it's consciousness, wouldn't that trickery in itself prove the presence of consciousness? 3) I think there are ample modern-day cases of the difficulty of choosing what is right in the face of consequences to yourself. For instance, if you were to witness the officer suffocating/killing George Floyd, especially if you're a person of color, do you attempt to pull the officer off of Mr. Floyd if he won't respond to your pleas and other officers aren't intervening, though you could be arrested or, much worse, shot? I think Mr. Singer's example of his vegetarianism causing his friends to think he's cranky was a weak argument, but I understand if other examples weren't immediately coming to mind. 4) You say you are "just a dumb engineer" and "not a philosopher." That's poppy cock. Look at your channel. Look at who you've had meaningful conversations with and whose work you have heavily read up on and researched. You ARE a philosopher. Period. Thank you for contributing these valuable conversations to society.

[@KaraNodrik]

Thank you Lex! Love your work

[@xiaomanyc1391]

Wow that's nice, thanks for replying, you can send a message to my administrator James on watsap to earn in crypto, Stocks and ETFs. + 1... 6... 6... 2... 2... 6 ... 0... 3...0 ... 7... 3.... he's excellent at what he does, tell him I referred you to him. His passionate strategies are top notch.🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸

[@sadranezam3367]

would love someone who is also a practical philosopher speak on this , probably system engineer and model this somehow.

[@EighthDayPerlman]

I think it's tremendously important to consider that suffering is profoundly linked to hormonal processes that are deeply connected to the brain and the body, and exist because they have helped us (and lower forms) to act quickly and decisively, and thereby allowed us to survive through millions or billions of years of evolution. No robot has been through this evolutionary process. No robot (as far as I know) has this deeply motivating hormonal connection between brain and body. Until that connection exists, I think there's no place for suffering to be inferred in the overall mechanism of a robot or any AI.

[@EighthDayPerlman]

Similarly, humans and many other species possess a model of self as an individual member of a social group or species. (In other species, you can infer this from the capacity to imitate physical motion, which requires at least a mapping from the visual image of another individual's limbs to the matching operation of one's own corresponding limbs. That implies some sort of model of which both "other" and "self" are instances that can be mapped to one another.) In humans, our model of self is extremely complex and developed. We even apply our self concept to other humans in a process we call "empathy". My own sense of my consciousness seems deeply connected to how I view myself and either relies heavily on, or in fact is, a continuous loop of self analysis and evaluation vis a vis remembered experiences that gave me pain or pleasure, as well as comparisons to other humans. If robots are to be conscious, I believe they must have this continuous loop of self observation and analysis. Can a deep learning model have that component? Maybe, but I think it has to be a privileged component, and its self analysis has to be deeply connected to its communication and decisions. I don't know of that being explicitly present in any deep learning model.

[@EighthDayPerlman]

This also brings in the concept of time. A deep learning model maps a question to an answer, and does nothing in between. It isn't sitting around ruminating, philosophizing, worrying, planning, or getting impatient for its next break. That also seems to preclude consciousness.

[@p3tr0114]

A great selection for a person to interview! I was thinking what Singer's response would be to the Zen Buddhist-like question about destroying suffering. Because according to these Buddhists, it would also destroy pleasure. Which to my mind seems right. I guessed what Singer's response would be and I was right. He is wary of eliminating all suffering. The other responses Singer gave seem correct as well; it's probably not possible to eliminate all of suffering, I would say that's because of human fallibility; there's always something that will go wrong. (This would also hold true if we create an AI as it will inherit our fallibility, maybe to a lesser extent.)

[@missshroom5512]

You are so sweet. I would like to see you on Joe Rogan again. I bet he is keeping you for Spotify. Anyways everything good your way Lex. You make me smile

[@davidantonsavage6207]

Never let ideology get ahead of biology. Humans survived multiple ice ages. Wheat grass juice and tofu can be lovely at times, but we are here now because our ancestors tore the flesh of animals and cooked it over a fire in a cave.

[@donnaAmatore]

Suffering by many sentient creatures is not displayed by screaming, tears/crying or other human-centric behavior. For example, prey animals are invested in not displaying these overt behaviors to prevent themselves being targeted by predators. Many reptile species also don’t present mammalian-type suffering behavior.

[@supersnowva6717]

I live in Melbourne, Australia! ❤️

[@benjaminfrances]

I live in Sydney! how's your epidemic? ;)

[@supersnowva6717]

Ben Jaimen Back to lockdown

[@voidtech8865]

Sophia has already been given citizenship in Saudi Arabia. So the bridge of AI rights has already been crossed. As far as suffering. It is not only the experience of pain and the awareness of that experience. But at it's core, suffering is a result of being separated from Source.

[@nickperson6745]

What did you do to inflict pain on the Rumba?

[@gerritelenbaas4817]

Once again, a great podcast Lex.

[@fxmz8396]

But the Roomba screaming in pain isn’t the same as an animal screaming in pain. An animal in a state of distress, suffers. The Roomba was given a sound to mimic that suffering in order appear sentient, it isn’t writhing in pain and distress as an animal would. Or am I missing the point?

[@Liisa3139]

Hmm, there are lots of problems here. For starters: pleasure and suffering blend together, they are not two separate concepts.

[@usagi-z]

What if these learning systems were endowed with some sort of a capacity for self-reflection or introspection and in this way able to tell us how they 'work'. One question could be: should we trust what they tell us?

[@SenjiaMurtic]

Ones and zeros, but what would run AI??

[@georgetacarmen8824]

I enjoyed this conversation. For some reason, hearing the word immortal this time, made me think of one of my favorite dumb movies. "death becomes her" It's a funny movie about death. But, I can't really handle observing pain in animals or humans. It gives me ptsd. It causes me great torment if I spend too much time thinking about all of the pain out in the world. Because I can't really do much about it on a grand scale. It makes me feel powerless and already defeated. I realized that I am 95 % vegetarian. Probably to keep myself in check healthwise. But, I seriously get cravings at odd times for fried crispy chicken and other fried tastys Especially around work. I smell fresh baked bread and fried crispy chicken tastys stuff at times. Such torment. I'm so proud of myself for figuring out my healthy diet. Strawberries are my treats these days. It makes me so proud of myself. I did have blueberry white chocolate truffles the other day though. I just remembered. It takes such willpower to deny ourselves for the benefit of another. Man, it's tough. That does not come naturally. I realized that, after this conversation, that I don't donate anything anymore. I've become a shopaholic, consumed with buying pretty things for myself. And, actually it makes me quite happy. I did buy two homeless young men some Christmas winter gifts of waterproof fleece blankets, fleece sweatpants set, and umbrellas and socks. My Christmas contribution to humanity, for the year. And, I give bread during the week, to a lady who is obviously starving on the streets. But, I'm rather disappointed in myself, after listening to this conversation. I've become the opposite of what I used to be years ago. I realized that the only donation that I have as a recurring donation, is to a lion sanctuary, go figure. And, that's partly because watching the KZbin videos of the social interaction between the lions and the man that raised them, was therapeutic for me, years ago. I know that they even use wolf therapy for veterans with ptsd and stuff. The guy buys food from the grocery store for his lions. But, lately he has been thinking of letting his lions hunt in the wild for their food. Probably because he notices that his lions look bored of life at times, and not as happy as they could be or something. And also, he's just getting older not younger. People should not romanticize suffering. Why do we do it?

[@jeffreysherman2574]

I worry about Lex's admiration of soldiers. When a person's duty is to kill fellow humans the soldier becomes a social pariah. Until people realize that killing is antisocial behavior, war will always be with us.

[@zorrderschnitter2]

Killing is antisocial behavior

[@amabamo5769]

You need bad man to fight bad man

[@grimerat]

I interpret his point to be more an admiration of the camaraderie/kinship that comes as a result of war rather than an admiration of the act of war or killing in itself.

[@nlpengineer4031]

thank you!

[@Gigaloader]

I agree with Peter Singer and don't think the "display of suffering" IS actual suffering or should be treated as such. The mere fact that a conscious being can also pretend or act to suffer without actually doing so - indeed means that when an unconscious AI displays suffering doesn't mean anything. That would be like saying the actors in a horror movie experience suffering. Its only an unpleasant thing for most conscious beings to watch because we have empathy. Its probably wrong to program an AI to display suffering in the first place, that no mentally ill person can get off on it! Regardless how the AI is treated.

[@CoreyChambersLA]

We're all omnivores. Most humans would benefit from eating less meat, fewer carbs, and more vegetables.

[@9munster]

"To live is to suffer.To survive, is to find meaning in the suffer"

[@9munster]

@rockster10101 i get your point.

[@SenjiaMurtic]

Peter, absolutely brilliant definition! The thought of AI virus or such malware? Lex have you ever watched a show called Smallville??

[@BroCactus]

You need to have Robert Sapolsky on here

[@spoderman8773]

My exam for Philosophy 101 had a question about his stance on abortion. Got a C on that exam

[@BiancaAguglia]

Sometimes, grades reflect the knowledge of the teacher, not the knowledge of the student. 😉

[@Jonny17m]

I just still can't unterstand how Lex can consume such massive amounts of meat while claiming he wants to spread love..

[@JohnnyNoPockets]

Singer likes murdering human babies. I'm guessing you do too. Careful not to fall off you "moral" high horse.

[@s-tierkeyboardwarrior-lvl4686]

A cat can nurse its young and treat fellow cats with kindness but will still play with a mouse. A wolf may nurse its young and never bully those lower on the hierarchy and continue killing deer. Carnivores/Omnivores are biologically wired to not empathize with what they eat. We and every other animal have biological barriers preventing us from being completely moral. MLK spreaded plenty of love and (from what I understand) he beat his kids. People are people, whether they spread love or not. Besides, if what he is doing is helping others, then it is an act of spreading love. He nor anybody was claiming that he was spreading love perfectly optimally.

[@Emily-bp7ol]

I just can’t understand how vegans consume plastic and big agriculture products while claiming they are not harming animals.

[@Jonny17m]

@@Emily-bp7ol Im not saying im not harming any animals at all. Thats a point you made! I'm just trying to minimize my impact thats all.

[@MyMrdoodoo]

@@s-tierkeyboardwarrior-lvl4686 we most certainly have the capability to empathize with animals. Whether or not you suppress that emotional connection is probably a mechanism to protect you from feeling bad about it, because accepting that reality means admitting you are complicit in the torture of animals for your own taste pleasure.

[@patbonny1175]

The theory of morphic resonance regarding the structure of crystals must surely be relevant here? morphic resonance in the human sphere would explain the exponential growth in modelling of the quantum universe.

[@macombus269]

It is so good to live vegan! 💪🏾🌱

[@Basieeee]

Thanks for the podcast Lex! I just thought this guest was a bit too agreeable.

[@Sprite_525]

“What one generation finds ridiculous, the next accepts; and the third shudders when it looks back on what the first did.” -Peter Singer, re-read by Lex Fridman at the very end of this podcast

[@hueyhooverhampton7060]

I remember watching boxing one day & thinking 100 years from now people will be wondering why would this be a sport. 🤔

[@stevefromsaskatoon830]

​@@hueyhooverhampton7060 reminds me if that meme about America being short on tampon supplies because of all the pussies 🤦‍♂️

[@nicolasuribestanko]

@@hueyhooverhampton7060 Yeah... boxing. At least the boxers are there of their own accord. What about bullfights?

[@TheMylittletony]

@@hueyhooverhampton7060 As long as they aren't forced to do it

[@SahakSahakian]

Might be useful to set an upwards bar for how much material wealth it is ethical to have. To use the words of Alexandra Cortez, "You dont make a billion dollars, you take a billion dollars.". How many golden toilets is enough?

[@eminem2]

Regarding "people who give more tend to be more satisfied by their lives" could this be the inverse? People who are more satisfied with their lives give more? Which is of these correlation is befitting causality?

[@Zeddd7]

Both are equally true. Depressed people often find it rewarding to volunteer somewhere.

[@p3tr0114]

Sounds a bit like the Tao; if you want to be given everything give everything away.