Achilles & Patroclus: Friends or Lovers?

Books Mentioned:
The Iliad by Homer
Other Epic Cycle poems: The Odyssey, The Cypria (also spelled Kypria), The Little Iliad
The Myrmidons by Aeschylus
The Symposium by Plato
The Song of Achilles by Madeline Miller
If you want to explore the quotes I talked about:
Iliad, Greek: www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/t...
Iliad, English: www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/t...
The Myrmidons, Greek with notes and translation (starts at the bottom of the left-hand page): archive.org/stream/aeschylusw...
Audiobooks I've voiced/produced:
Most Recent: Persuasion: tinyurl.com/yau89zhr
On Audible: tinyurl.com/yccjbwhg
TWITTER: @tehlibinator
GOODREADS: / 7303573.libby_stephenson

[@ralphrazel]

Who is here after reading “ Song of Achilles”?

[@hazellevesque692]

Me

[@tatismadness9592]

ralphrazel me

[@sverp6142]

Me and I’m so sad

[@everythingsoccer5636]

Me

[@marry8138]

Me

[@eddiemidoriya6971]

some people: are here to learn more greek history me and maybe some people: here to see if they were gay

[@theawhitaker3994]

I’m here after listen to Achilles come down by Gang of Youths

[@Rick-me8qn]

I FOUND THE STORY OFF PINTEREST 💀😭

[@ipshitajee]

count me in

[@lohengramm6969]

You have a cursed profile pic

[@wha-258]

Im here to read the comments,,,

[@dennicvonlorenzo2294]

Achilles' closest and most humane connection is with Patroclus. He loved him as much as his own life. That's why he still went to battle knowing that doing so will bring him his own doom, because life doesn't have a meaning anymore, when you're already dead inside.

[@JanellRhiannon]

This is explained in great detail in Dr. Shay's Achilles in Vietnam.

[@chalhoubmaria-rita1164]

Beautifully said

[@zayedbiniqbal2797]

But he is Achilles's comrade and beat friend . heroes like Achilles cared for honour. That's why Achilles fought for his comrade

[@jorgecuevas8843]

@@zayedbiniqbal2797 ummmm no

[@TonyTunes95]

Settle down they were just really good friends . Friendship is way deeper and more serious in Europe and Japan than fucking shit hole America

[@kiapet286]

I feel like the takeaway from this is that Patroclus' exact relationship to Achilles, in terms of whether they were having sex or whatever, is vague and open to interpretation, but what is unambiguous is that Patroclus was the most important person in Achilles' life. They were soulmates, and the romantic versus platonic distinction is almost secondary in the face of that.

[@desiree4185]

I totally agree! They wanted to get buried together and were together in the afterlife together. They’re relationship was filled with loyalty and love. Like you said, they’re totally were soulmates.

[@azural5722]

Not to mention the absolute brutal vengeance quest Achilles went on in response to Patroclus’ death. And what he did once he actually caught up with Hector. That kind of reaction doesn’t happen with someone you view as simply a friend. More than pretty much anything else, Achilles loved Patroclus with every fiber of his being. He was willing to fight to the ends of the earth to avenge his death. If that’s not romance by Ancient Greek standards, than I highly doubt anything short of kidnapping is.

[@uax4567]

You don't know what platonic means. Platonic means "intimate and affectionate but not s3xuaI". Romantic means conducive to or characterized by the expression of love. And love means a deep and intense affection (ex: parents can love their children). Therefore you can love someone in a platonic way ("Platonic love"). A relationship can be romantic but platonic. So the opposition you wrote "romantic vs platonic" doesn't make sense. The words love and romantic are very often confused and associated with s3xuaI attraction, wanting to be in couple, etc.

[@kiapet286]

@@uax4567 "Platonic: of, relating to, or being a relationship marked by the absence of romance or sex", and "romantic: consisting of or resembling a romance" -Merriam Webster Dictionary. And I know platonic can be used to denote non-romantic non-sexual relationships because it's how it's used in the aroace community, not to mention like everywhere else lol

[@uax4567]

@@kiapet286 But how does it define romance ? Romance is related to love and thus it fall again in the idea of intense and profound affection (without the sexual component, because love is different from sexual attraction) which it doesn't invalidate what I say. The definition you gave of romantic just means " like a romance" it doesn't really say anything more on the meaning. Plus in the Merriam Webster one of the meaning of platonic Is: relating to or based on platonic love; for romantic it also says " marked by expressions of love or affection". Idk why you didn't mentioned it. Also my definitions are all from Oxford languages, so the definition of platonic they gave me excluded romance

[@random7607]

Ah yes, because I would want to mingle my ashes with my PLATONIC friend and make sure we get buried together so we can spend the eternity with each other, cuz yenno we're just bros and that's a totally normal thing for bros to do..... (in case it wasn't obvious enough, I think achilles and patroclus are soulmates and nobody can tell me otherwise)

[@nutyyyy]

Yes of course that makes sense as its impossible 3000 years ago Greeks had different concepts of how friendship could be. Much as men held hands, embraced fondly and even kissed in many cultures and even in the west up until the early 20th century. We shouldn't be too hasty to see any fond and close bond of men as automatically being homosexual or intended to be so.

[@my_name_is_bee]

i think their relationship probably wasn't platonic, but i also would like to be buried with my best friend. i honestly have no reason for thinking they were together other than it's cute and i like it.

[@desmond_ire6852]

Yes, we’d bang our homies no homo

[@nutyyyy]

@@desmond_ire6852 Not all cultures are the 21st century United States. You lot are coming off as very ignorant. Bet you think most europeans, Asians and Africans are gay because they are different.

[@uax4567]

Being gay, firstly, implies being s3xuaIIy attracted and (then) experiencing romantic feelings for the *same gender*. Thus this notion can't be applied for Achilles (or Patroclus). I think the best way to describe their feelings is platonic love (it's a philosophical concept). People don't know or confuse what platonic means. Platonic means "intimate and affectionate but not s3xuaI". And love means a deep and intense affection (ex: parents feel love for their children). I think they felt a profound love for each other without the s3xuaI attraction component.

[@strawberrolyy]

They loved each other- doesn’t matter what type of love, but it was strong enough to Achilles that he took revenge and gave his life away to be with Patroclus in the after life.

[@sophiegraves3529]

this

[@bolothetitan5009]

If that does not sound like spouses loyal and devoted to each other then i don't know anymore.

[@S1ERA]

@@bolothetitan5009 fuck youachilles aint gay you liberalshit spreading some bitchass fake news again to contribute trash to the world history

[@ell72852]

I mean, it was Achilles’ fault that Patroclus died

[@paulinaenck5797]

Achilles and Patroclus were portrayed as lovers in Shakespeare’s Troilus and Cressida

[@Rose-xe4ct]

Akantha R But what about the other greek authors like Platos who wrote them as lovers? Their relationship can be defined as both romantic and platonic depending on what you believe or interpret the text as.

[@-.-..._...-.-]

@@Rose-xe4ct Xenophon and Socrates wrote they were just best friends. Also book 9 and 14 of Iliad talk a lot about Achilles love for Briseus. He wants to marry her and Patroclus pledges to Briseus he will get Achilles to marry her even though she is his slave. There are a lot of ancient Greek stories that specifically state that 2 people were sexual lovers, Aeschines, the guy whose opinion is the most well known, said that he believes they were lovers, but he also states people have to read in between the lines of the Iliad because the story doesn't deliberately say that. Aeschines is also famous for loving young boys, he specifically says it in his argument to Timarchus. So it should all be taken with a grain of salt, especially since people want to relate the stories to themselves and their community, be it 95% of the population or 5%.

[@mezmereyesofficial7526]

Although I love Patroclus and Achilles as a couple, shakespeares version of the couple was kind of... making fun of it if I can say so? Patroclus and Achilles choosing to be "lazy" and becoming more "effeminate" because their love for each other. It was a great play but if you read the subtext about why they were together, it's kinda... homophobic... which is weird since Shakespeare was NOT straight either.

[@joemcperes8637]

Ah yes because Shakespeare knew the nature of their relationship

[@katiesnudden829]

@@-.-..._...-.- From my understanding, in ancient Greece, it was normalized that a man could deeply love his wife as well as a companion. Like in the case of Herakles and his wives, he loved them deeply but also loved the young man who helped him with the 12 labors.

[@araccoonwithalaptop8637]

Hello, Greek person and some who has studied mythology all their life here! Well, we have no proof the Trojan war ever happened it’s believed that Homer actually made it up because since he was a philosopher, he wrote the book to see what everyone’s views were and his own views on war. It is indeed vague that Achilles and Patroclus were just very, very close. But, other writers and philosophers such as Plato have seen them as lovers and many writers now because of *how* Achilles mourns. Now Breisis (I butchered her name sorry), as not actually seen in the original as having much of a character arc says something. She was used for symbolism. Since Achilles killed Breisis family, and many soldiers took wives forcefully, she symbolizes his pride and glory from being a warrior. When she is taken away, Achilles refuses to fight because again, his “glory and pride” from being a warrior in this war and being taken away from him, he refuses to fight. When Patroclus dies from trying to preserve Achilles pride and glory, Achilles mourns over him in a very dramatic and sad way. He does not burn his body right away and he held him in his tent and weep despite the look of horror from others. He made the suicidal decision to die in the Trojan war because he saw no point in living. Even Briesis for a short moment mourns over Patroclus, you can argue if that was romantic or not, but she did so because she represents part of Achilles, his warrior side and his glory also mourn for him. So in conclusion? You decide, I can really tell you otherwise. I personally feel like them being lovers makes the story have a deeper and more profound meaning, but I think if they were just friends it would have been fine by me!

[@psychosophy.1]

briseis was a war prize. agamenon took her away from achilles then achiiles felt like agamenon was disrespecting his honor that is why achilles got angry and stopped fighting. not because they were fighting to have sex with her.

[@SongsofAntiquity]

Yeah, she's really not much of a character. More of an object and a plot device.

[@a.nastasia.olivia]

@@SongsofAntiquity I totally agree. From the way they are described, it doesn’t sound like meaningful relationships were necessary made between the men who seized the women. The fact that they were slave women to then says enough.

[@MahaHMA]

well that's the point of the character. He was so angry, he let many of his loved ones get screwed because he didn't want to bend over to Agamennone. He refused to listen to his godfather when he begged him to fight, he let many of his friends, which he loved, get murdered by the Trojans, he let his lifelong comrade fight the Trojans in his armor though he knew Zeus, himself, was standing with the Trojans. he brought countless ills upon his loved ones while he was sitting like an angry burrito in his tent. he loved and cared about Briseis and many other people but not to the point of letting go of his rage.

[@Kokinos45]

Well in most of the trojan war poems including the iliad achilles shows how much he loves briseis and wants her to be his wife patroclus even pledges to her that Achilles will marry her

[@alyctus]

Achilles: "Do then the sons of Atreus alone of mortal men love their wives? Surely whatsoever man is good and sound of mind loveth his own and cherisheth her, even as I too loved mine with all my heart, though she was but the captive of my spear." Book IX

[@silverquill101]

Wasn't there scene where Achilles talked about showering Patrolicus in kisses and worshiping his unblemished thighs?

[@kimscott2480]

That's frrom Aeschylus' lost play, The Myrmidons.

[@bensondavido4525]

@@kimscott2480 thank you people mix this up a lot

[@xandrartz]

* spits coffee * ExCuSe MeEhHHhHhhhH?!!! Ohhuuhuhuhuhu now i shall buy a shit ton of Greek Mythology and binge read em all

[@pollux_the_insufferable.]

@@xandrartz share

[@ceton1843]

@@kimscott2480 what are the myrmidons? I tried researching but now I feel more confused than before bc I am not getting a straight answer.

[@scarlettkaplan6425]

I am going to believe they were gay because I want them to be gay. No one can say I'm wrong.

[@mckennaa3641]

Also like its right there, its pretty much textual, other Greek philosophers read it that way.

[@SongsofAntiquity]

Oh, they're gay.

[@eddiemidoriya6971]

people in the past : they were very close friends

[@jesc4274]

i am going to believe you are wrong because i want you to be wrong following ur logic.

[@pigeonwithswageon4102]

@@eddiemidoriya6971 More like historians. The people in the past actually shiped them.

[@valeriamedina94]

I CHOOSE to believe that SoA is the actual real thing and no one can convince me otherwise

[@zoea3142]

They loved each other, maybe they weren't "lovers" but they loved each other, no one can convince me otherwise.

[@alessandrafarina4258]

Achilles even said it in book XVIII, he loved him as much as he loved his life. Obviously they were also friends, but calling them just friends is reductive. They love each other and they're destined to stay together either in life and in death, the type of love doesn't really matter after all since there are different types!

[@RARA94790]

​@@alessandrafarina4258platonic soulmates is Def better than just friends

[@biancaercole6090]

I am a little late to this video but I feel like sharing my POV about this relationship between Achilles and Patroclus. I believe that the intention in all the books that talk about them was to portray their deep love towards each other, not focusing on the type of relationship that they had, whether it was lovers, friends, cousins or whatever. After reading a lot about their story I was able to understand their love and connection, how much they admired each other and how much they would of done for one another, and after being able to see that, I honestly didn't care what the title of their relationship was because the intention of the writers was to show the love, beyond a title. So instead of thinking whether they were this or that, let's enjoy how pure, honest and innocent their admiration and passion was.

[@gyanlanevsky92]

I wish I could give 1000 upvotes to this awesome comment, so it would be on top!

[@beatrizscatolin5201]

That's it!

[@ipshitajee]

i toally agree with this , but I love PATROCHILLE

[@shsh-mc3sx]

period

[@mirmir7231]

You single handedly ended this on going debate about them haha I agree with you wholeheartedly, we should focus more on about how they love each other passionately whether it be lovers or not. I personally ship them but I respect if other people view them as brothers/cousins or best comrades. It's that simple people no need to fight whose more historically accurate and logical to whose not

[@KaiseaWings]

Considering the Iliad wasn't created by Homer, he just wrote it down, and we don't know what the 'original' was - it was an oral story that likely changed with the telling and the teller, if later ancient writers made them lovers isn't that just as canon? What counts as 'canon' here? Even if the Iliad was totally 100% straight and that was how it was originally told, literally all our King Arthur myths are thousands of years late to the party, but we consider Lancelot and Excalibur and Guinevere 'canon.' Achilles loving his wife doesn't mean he doesn't also love Patroclus, wasn't it common for Greek men to have both wives and a boyfriend?

[@johnnystander3142]

If you mean canon as a story and not as a reality, then sure, yes.

[@saram404]

the wife part is wht bothers me a bit, people cheat on their wife's and husbands all of the time. people have polyamorous relationships, love triangles exist for a reason, bc u can love more than one person romantically at the same time and I feel like a lot of people that bring his wife are just completely ignoring that bisexual people exist

[@applehead4079]

@wanka wanka yeah me too your smart

[@abookoholic6252]

From what I've heard, by word of mouth it was usually told that they were lovers. Pre-Christianity, and especially in Greece, there wasn't a negative connotation with being gay. In fact, bisexuality was often considered the default especially with the gods. People usually told the story as the two of them being lovers, and just because Homer didn't write that in The Iliad didn't mean that's how most people told it, that was just one variant.

[@KaiseaWings]

@@abookoholic6252 My point was more that what we consider 'canon' is arbitary, because we don't know what the original was. But yes, it seems likely that they were gay in at least some iterations.

[@cefrinaldi8060]

Can we just agree that their relationship is complicated and cannot be define as pure lover or pure friend

[@chinhvanhong1415]

no, they bang

[@JohnPaul-cu6jr]

"achilles and patroclus; did theu bang" hah, now you got my attention 😂

[@katiesnudden829]

If im not mistaken, Plato actually wrote they were lovers. In his words I believe he wrote "They were a pair of divinely approved lovers." And the word companion in ancient Greece was also code for a romantic companion. As for his war bride, I would imagine he loved her too. Greece was far from straight and most people had several lovers. But there's also the Asexual part of me thst knows someone can be close without sex and it also be beyond friendship

[@val9248]

Hey, where can I find where he wrote this? Is there a book?

[@LibbyStephenson]

You should look at Plato's Symposium which references the lost play The Myrmidons.

[@S1ERA]

fuck youachilles aint gay you liberalshit spreading some bitchass fake news again to contribute trash to the world history

[@MrIcarusEl]

I studied Ancient Greece this year at University and read both the Illiad and Song of Achilles and while I can see both sides of them being lovers or friendships and I interpreted them as lovers but I can see why others would see them as just close companions.

[@alessandrafarina4258]

I also see them as lovers, but I honestly don't care if their love was platonic or romantic (/sexual), as long as we all agree that they were connected by a very deep and strong bond that cannot be described just as a simple "friendship". I mean, obviously they were also very close friends, but after all their relationship was WAYY more complicated than that.

[@noel1872]

I love how she introduced the context

[@tiredsimp7892]

Achilles and Patroclus. Did they bang?

[@fuabtreter7302]

Does it matter if they slept together though? Wether we look at a modern retelling like The Song of Achilles or at the Illiad itself, I think you can see that their relationship was very special. In my opinion love isn't just about sleeping together. I think we have taken it a bit too far with this drastic divide between two different interpretations anyway because them being "only friends" or even cousins doesn't feel sincere enough for most (I don't have that deep of a bond with my friends or cousins) but a romantic relationship isn't exactly based on the early sources we have. Achilles was always very arrogant towards others but was totally different when around Patroclus. And let's not forget that he charged into battle, killing Hector and dragging his body all over the place all to avenge Patroclus. How much they cared for eachother is really obvious and you don't necessarily need sex to have this kind of bond. That doesn't make their love for each other any less real. Achilles seemed to love Briseis but would that really stop him from being able to love someone else as well? And from what I remember Briseis wasn't that important of a character. She was just Achilles war prize that was taken by Agamemmnon, right? She probably meant a lot to Achilles but he and Patroclus grew up together so I would imagine that their bond was more meaningful anyway. And what many forget is that their existance wasn't proven. At the end of the day it is just a story and everyone can interpret it how they want. It doesn't make them a bad person. The people that interpret their relationship to be of romantic nature can just read The Song of Achilles and enjoy the story (or - you know - cry) as they want to see it. It really isn't worth fighting over. I hope I got my point across, I'm not that good at keeping my thoughts coherent. And english isn't my first language.

[@alessandrafarina4258]

I think that your English is good ^^ Anyway, yeah, love has many different forms: not only sleeping together and being sexual lovers, there are many other ways to demonstrate it! I think that your opinion is really similar to the one some ancient greeks, such as Socrates and Xenophon, had: basically, they thought their love was more of a soul connection, like "two souls in a body", something deeper than a sexual relationship based on physical attraction. And about Briseis, I agree: Achilles might have loved her and he definitely cared about her, but after all that was just a master-slave relationship, obviously his love and connection with Patroclus was something more important and deep (he loved him as much as/more than he loved his own life, Achilles said it himself in book XVIII). And afterall, as you said, Briseis was her war prize, the symbol of his honor, so he obviously stopped fighting not because they stole her beloved woman, but because his honor got offended. About the last thing you said, did you mean that people who sees them as romantic partners and don't want to change their opinion are, like, "a lost cause"? If I understood well, then I agree: it isn't worth discussing with people who aren't open to listen other point of view, either a person who thinks of them as romantic lovers either a person who thinks about them as platonic lovers. I personally think that they were romantic lovers, but not necessarily sexual partners (I also read the Song of Achilles, it is my favorite book), but I'd love to argue about this topic with someone else, it would be interesting! P.S.: I love to think of them as soulmates and lovers, I don't care if the nature is romantic, platonic or sexual (for this one, I think that they would be sexual lovers only *if* they were also romantic partners), as long as we agree on the fact that they were the most important people for each other. When people define them as simple friends, "close" friends, I get... disappointed. Like, they're dimishing such a complicated and deep connection, I feel like they don't understand how much important it is even for the plot. Resuming, their bond is really special, it can't be really defined, it's a wide love, but its nature can be discussed by anybody.

[@fuabtreter7302]

​@@alessandrafarina4258 Thank you for your reply! I'm glad that I'm not the only one that sees it like this. With my last point I wasn't really talking about how people that are set in their beliefs are a lost cause, though what you said is a good point. I meant that with our current understanding Achilles and Patroclus are fictional characters and everyone is allowed to believe what they want. If people read the Illiad and came to the conclusion that they were romantic partners, they have another book to enjoy that correlates with their interpretation - The Song of Achilles - while those that believe they were totally platonic, "just friends", cousins, etc. can watch Troy or something. There doesn't have to be an argument where people that interpret them as romantic/sexual partners are called out that it wouldn't be realistic, it's not true to the source material or whatever and people that interpret them as being totally platonic aren't reading between the lines. It's just a story. I think this type of love isn't really popular nowadays because we divide every relationship into platonic or romantic/sexual while not realizing that there is something in between. I personally don't know what to believe, though I also lean more towards the romantic side, just because (if they were real) what would stop them? No one would say or do anything against that type of relationship if they don't want to anger Achilles. If they are that important to each other already then it's reasonable to assume that they wouldn't suddenly draw the line at romantic gestures. Also, if I'm not mistaken than a relationship between two men wasn't unheard of in ancient Greece and wasn't as scrutinized as in other time periods/regions. Maybe we don't even have an accurate translation of the Illiad but I'm not going to learn ancient greek just to find out. Also I may have been swayed by the writing style of The Song of Achilles. It might just be my translation of the Illiad, but their relationship isn't described very well. It doesn't feel like I'm reading a story or a myth but rather a (sorry I don't know the word in English) count/enumeration/time beam of what happened during the Trojan war. It doesn't really talk about the feelings of them and you only get a sense of their significance through Achilles' actions after Patroclus' death. The Song of Achilles is written in a more modern way and reads like a typical story I would be used to. What you said about them being romantic lovers but not necessarily sexual partners is a really good interpretation. I kind of automatically assume that romantic also means sexual but you are totally right, they don't have to correlate. "Soulmates" is probably the closest we will get to describing their relationship. I think in our modern society we see a sexual relationship as the highest form of love when there are enough examples that show that that isn't (always) the case. If two people are that important to each other than it is insignificant if they also sleep together, because if they don't than it doesn't make their bond any less real. Most (if not all) people will never experience this kind of relationship which in itself gives a whole new dimension to the story because it really isn't just about the Trojan war.

[@raquel.1997]

Alexander - Achilles Hephaestion - Patroclus

[@Angel-hg5hf]

Exactly

[@ADR199E]

Correct.

[@bxll_monia]

What- im confused

[@ADR199E]

@@bxll_monia they gay and they lovers.

[@bxll_monia]

@@ADR199E the names?

[@io_online]

It's true that the society we have now values romance far above and beyond friendship, as though it is a higher, more profound form of love than friendship. While I adored The Song of Achilles, I seriously think strong friendships in media need to be portrayed more often and in a higher light... I suppose people just don't find friendship as satisfying as romance. Wether that's a social concept or a natural one, I don't know.

[@amandine2239]

I think so too. They had a very close friendship and cared about each other like brothers. They went through 10 years of war together after all.

[@alessandrafarina4258]

@@amandine2239 I actually think that their bond was more than brotherly affection. They have known each other since childhood and they have become the most important person in the other's life, destined to stay together either in life and in death. I honestly think that they loved each other, romantic or platonic doesn't really matter.

[@KurowChibifan1]

i really agree with this interpretation especially the part abt how achilles would love this Discourse abt him bc honestly. you KNOW he would lmao. as for me i believe he was in love with both briseis and patroclus, both romantically, but that his connection to patroclus was much deeper. there's plenty in the text that could easily be read as friendship if you wanted to but even for the time could be seen as romantic?? like wishing death upon all greeks and trojans so that he and patroclus could be alone and conquer troy together seems to be A Lot. + post-homeric things, in the translation i read of when achilles kills penthesilea and falls in love with her body, he compares the great sadness he feels to the one he felt when patroclus died; ie implying he had a sexual/romantic attraction to patroclus. obviously this isnt in the original text, but considering greek myth's nature to be shaped and evolve with the times and place it's portrayed in, it's safe to call them lovers or friends and neither should be a "bad" or "incorrect" interpretation, with evidence for both existing in and after homer's iliad.

[@EyeLean5280]

I agree one can be "in love" with a friend. I think this can be true even if no physical sex is involved. And I agree that Achilles' attachment to Patroclus is over-the-top (but of course, everything about him is!) And I completely agree that this epic poem is a living thing that by necessity speaks differently to different generations and individuals, and that there shouldn't be a hard-and-fast "correct" interpretation.

[@abbylove8373]

I understand that is definitely a chance Achilles and Patroclus were platonic but I simply chose no to accept that.

[@Julian-on7jq]

Thank you for taking the time to explain this from a slighly more academic perspective. Achilles Champion of Champions!

[@NekoPanda122]

I'm obviously not as much of an expert, but as much as I love TSOA and how romantic Achilles and Patroclus's relationship were written in that book, I think their relationship is much more ambiguous than just "friends" or "lovers" exclusively. Achilles obviously cared a lot about Patroclus, but he also marries Briseis (and they have a son? I'm not sure), it is also said that both Achilles and Patroclus slept with women. But Achilles cares deeply for Patroclus, so much that Patroclus's death enraged him and drove him to war the Trojans again, to hunt down Hector, kills him, and drag his dead body around as "revenge", Achilles cares so much about Patroclus, mourns him greatly, and doesn't care that killing Hector would bring forth his own death. Did they bang? I don't think that matters as much, Achilles and Patroclus were soulmates, in more way than one, and it doesn't have to necessarily be romantic

[@michaelatarditi2984]

Achilles never married Briseis and never had a son with her. She was his prize, her slave and concubine, she care for her like a symbol of his ego and pride. Achilles had a son with a princess named Deidamia and his name name is Pirro (Neottolemo). The only one person Achilles really care, love and had a deep and profound connection (whatever in a friendship or lover way) was with Patroclus. He also state in the Iliad poem that he will never suffer a pain like this even if he’ll lost his son or father or wife, only for Patroclus he suffer so much pain and sadness. And so other details in the poem made think, not only the philosophers and scholars in the ancient or scholars and historian now days but even me personally, that their connection was incredible intense and profound and strong, pure respect and love for each other.

[@gauravshahi6334]

I don't think that Achilles had a son with briseis at least not in TSOA he had a son with that princess, also briseis loved patroclus in the book

[@alessandrafarina4258]

@@michaelatarditi2984 Amen

[@alessandrafarina4258]

@@gauravshahi6334 Yeah, the only son Achilles had was with Deidamia, his name is Neoptolemus/Pyrrus. In the Iliad, Briseis was Achilles' sexual partner, and Achilles kinda cared about her (when she became a slave, Patroclus told her that she would have married Achilles), but mostly because she was the symbol of his honor. She also seemed to have a good relationship with Patroclus, because when he died she cried on his corpse and remebered him as a very generous and lovable person.

[@tacosalad1113]

Thank you for making this video and sourcing from the text! I've been wondering.

[@WillJohnson321]

Lovely video. :-] You communicate information clearly and concisely. Well done.

[@MarinaAndTheDevil]

This was a great video, you just gained a new fan Libby!

[@will8856]

So I’m learning Greek(also Latin) and my professor says that they Trojan war probably did happen but that it was about money and land and trading routes(cause you have to go past Troje to sail to the Black Sea), and that our heros didn’t exist. Also cause Homeros wrote it down centuries later, and the story about the Trojan war was told by people, and every person who told it changed it a little, so we’re sure that homeros version was not the original story. I liked that you explained these thing in your video and I really enjoyed it.

[@leahk9943]

How interesting! I have been wanting to read more Greek Mythology. This is such a great idea!

[@chazchillings3019]

Wish every professor be like you. It would be refreshing.

[@willowjoy7143]

I don’t really think it matters a ton whether their relationship was platonic or romantic, but what we do know is that they were life partners, and that is the most important part of their relationship

[@catherineo668]

I just finished reading this and have been crying for like an hour . And no , they are not friends or lovers . They’re both . The love and the friendship is very obvious. His best friend and the love of his life in one person .

[@JanellRhiannon]

Really appreciated your review of the texts. Nicely done. I think that's what makes this a great topic to write about. It's myth and you can write about it in a number of ways.

[@sannerossel8834]

Thank you so much for this video! I'm writing my first essay in uni on this topic, and although I realise a youtube vid is not a scholarly source, it gave me a core to work with :)

[@EyeLean5280]

Actually, KZbin videos can be used as a source sometimes, but you have to be careful. I'd double-check her assertions and translations with more scholarly works to see how they compare before citing something like this.

[@ulrickverbar1655]

I study literature and in particular literature based on ancient religions or civilizations, Ancient Greece is also part of my studies and I am very interested in the story of Achilles, according to the elements that I have been able to studied and the texts that I have been able to read regarding Achilles and Patroclus is very likely that they were lovers even the way Homer describes them in his literature of the Iliad does not leave one indifferent to this idea, even if Homer ignores the nature of this relationship, but when we study literature it is often a question of how to interpret the writings according to what is presented to us, Achile who refuses to fight, Patroclus takes his place and dies at the hands of 'Hector, Achilles' anger, sadness and determination to avenge Patroclus or even die in battle as he feels that without Patroclus life is not worth living, Achilles who would rather die in battle than live without P atrocles, or even the way Achilles killed Hector and then desecrated his body by tying it to his chariot and dragging it all over the city of Troy, Achilles who resents Patroclus for having delivered himself to death and tells him that he has to forget the shared kisses, that for me comes out of the context of friendship. It should be known that in Ancient Greece it is known to all that homosexual relations were known and attested, especially homosexual relations between men, even if they were not known to the general public, in particular between a master and his pupil, or between a king and one of his favorite warriors, in the Iliad Achilles has no connection or even affinity with his men the Myrmidons and sometimes treats them very badly. it is only with Patroclus that Achilles is described as being tender, even though he had Briseis as his love and lover, Patroclus was his favourite, the one who was the attention, his world, once he lost Patroclus no longer mattered to Achilles. If the relationship between Achilles and Patroclus is a friendship then it transcends all borders.

[@alessandrafarina4258]

Absolutely. It's all about interpretation, but we can't deny that they loved each other: calling their bond simple "friendship" (but obviously your lover can also be your bestfriend, why not?) is kinda reductive

[@freddy-i-guess946]

First of all I have to say that I have read none of the works mentioned nor have I studied anything related to them, so correct me if I'm wrong but do it nicely please. But I've seen a lot of comments saying that sure they were lovers because of this and that work. I just want to mention that she stated beautifully that we can not know whether or not they were. We will never know what the author of the Iliad intended. So it's all speculation. I'd just like to add the thought that authors from times passed describe friendship in a way that to us today would seem a very intense or a hidden or a beginning romantic relationship. I'm not saying anything, I just want to bring some further ideas into this discussion. But hey! I'm planning on reading the English translation of both the Iliad and the Odyssey in January!

[@EyeLean5280]

Luisa, I absolutely agree that under traditional patriarchy, friendships between males are more intense and tender than we're used to and can be mistaken by modern Westerners as looking romantic when they're not. And I agree that those who assert strong opinions on this question aren't on very solid ground, in the sense that we can't absolutely know what "Homer" intended. But I also agree with another of the commenters here who says that it's important for each of us to find our own truths in these works, that the idea of Achilles and Patroclus being lovers can be true for an individual reader and that's okay.

[@saram404]

the problem is even for those supposedly close friendships we can't be sure if that love was indeed just friendship. people are fast to dismiss it as "they were close friends, friendships were just like that in the day. But the thing is how do we know? we don't. I think it's easier to understand when we compare those male-male or woman-woman relationships with straight ones that we are sure were romantic. The problem with that is a lot more stuff would be gayer than people would like.

[@Lady_de_Lis]

Just read The Song of Achilles and loved it. Enjoyed the hell out of it. And I am still recovering from the emotional scars it gave me. It's a damn painful story... But even I, as someone who loved the book a LOT, can see that the author was very much interested in making Achilles more fixated on Patroclus as an exclusive lover than he probably was. From my perspective, just based on his actions, there is no denying at all that Patroclus was the one person Achilles loved more than himself. I think it's also likely that their relationship was surely not purely platonic. But as far as them being monogamous or Achilles having a lack of interest in women? I think that is where people are starting to twist things to fit their biases. From what I understand, Achilles probably was quite happy to hookup with women. He may have even loved one or two of them. Did he love them more than Patroclus? I don't think so. Mostly because Achilles's actions seem to suggest otherwise. Achilles was pretty much ready to die after Patroclus died. Apparently, he'd rather follow Patroclus into the underworld than remain with Briseis. As much as I appreciate The Song of Achilles as a tragically beautiful love story, I understand that it's not strictly sticking to the original myths. Nor does it have to. The book is still wonderful. I think the problem comes when people want to twist the myths to be like the book. You can certainly have your head canon, but don't try to force it on other people. And especially don't get mad at people who study the original myths for not agreeing with your head canon.

[@tibbysj4846]

Hi. What is your take on Breseis in the book?

[@gabidois]

What bothers me most is not the ambiguity, but the way people get SO defensive whenever anyone implies their relationship might've been romantic. Besides that, I very much doubt people would deny any romantic undertones so vehemently if one of them was a woman. Whatever unconscious bias we might have should be kept in check since we're talking about a completely different period, to which our current social conventions do not apply.

[@mr.green2341]

Or how some people get SO defensive whenever anyone implies that their relationship wasn’t romantic.

[@noel1872]

Well explained!!!

[@francesk4613]

"Achilles and Patroclus did they bang?" I'm dead 🤣🤣

[@Erica-um2qj]

Banged. Banged. Banged. Banged. Banged.

[@pigeonwithswageon4102]

The greeks didn't even discuss abt it. They discussed about who of them is top and who is bottom.

[@hemingshark327]

@@pigeonwithswageon4102 The nature of their relationship (whether they did or not) was actually also debated around the time of plato at least.

[@tortoisedreams6369]

Surprised this wasn't about speed skating, even more surprised to hear you reading ancient Greek. Thank you Prof. Libby! I really like your point about society valuing romantic relationships (gay or straight) more than friend relationships. My (tiny, illiterate) knowledge suggests that in earlier times a good friend was considered more valuable than today, when everything (incl friendship) is so sexualized. Achilles gay or bi, great. But what I see is that the Homer poet may well have been making a poetic statement or dichotomy for Achilles: "take my wife & I will not fight or kill for you, you've hurt my pride; when my friend is killed, I will avenge him by fighting & killing, a matter of my pride." It's a sort of see-saw.

[@LibbyStephenson]

Thanks, I know that older translations often obfuscate or straight-up change homoerotic themes in the classics, so I wanted to go straight to the text, and not rely on anyone else's translation. I think you are right about friendships being more highly valued in ye olden dayes. Marrying for love is a pretty new concept on the grand scheme of human history, so it's expected that people would be more attached to their friends (whom they could choose) than their spouse.

[@tortoisedreams6369]

ooh, good point! I wonder if also both women & men depended more on their friends to get through the day (or life) than their spouse ...

[@colindabennett8165]

Brilliant!!! Thanks for sharing! Nameste

[@yogeshask3922]

Is it Namaste?

[@whalienreader1261]

@@yogeshask3922 yepp

[@azizalarrie28yearsago8]

they love each other very and deeply. change my mind.

[@louwtijejmatsi2818]

This was so beautiful. And what's even more is that I am surprised to see this material right in the present of 2018...and they say history is dead. Honestly I couldn't agree more with the evidence and such, I am only 17 years old but I have been engulfed by history ever since I was of a much younger age. Seeing you express the topic using straightforward evidence was interesting and once again, I honestly thought you speaking Ancient Greek was beautiful. I did not think that was even possible, what with many great civilizations losing their language down the ages-such as the Ancient Egyptians. But WOW!

[@acommunicatorv2663]

Imagine going back in time and trying to explain this to Achilles. (If he existed)

[@saintfighteraqua]

I totally agree with you. This current trend of erasing friendships is kind of creepy. I'm 100% okay with stories like Song of Achilles (one of the most well-written books, ever) and I'm fine with the stories that portray them as platonic. But there is a huge emphasis on promoting shipping over friendship and I think it's unhealthy and leads to some of the worst fanbases (like the fans attacking the actors for Bucky and Falcon for stating it's platonic). There is plenty of room for all kinds of love and instead of tearing down non-sexual, non-romantic love, we should build that up, too. I'd argue in many ways it can be even stronger and just as powerful.

[@alessandrafarina4258]

Yeah! Love isn't only romantic and sexual, there are many kinds-

[@incanusolorin2607]

Very well done video!

[@sihamelite2823]

Thank you so much, it was very helpful 🌷🌷🌷

[@SergioAmigo57]

as a greek I thank you for caring. great job

[@Tomcohencoudar]

"Achilles and Patroclus. . DID. THEY. BANG". - I died hahahahahahah

[@katiejlumsden]

I know nothing about Achilles and Patroclus, but this is such an awesome video!

[@stefanfilipovits21]

Lovers

[@iosonocomeledera]

Brilliant ♥ I'm reading "The song of Achilles" right now, what's your opinion about it?

[@beebosforehead2246]

RobEdD sad

[@iimsoxo]

Im reading it as well and it deff seems they have feelings for each other

[@Carmen-iu5yh]

I cried so much at the end

[@sukie3702]

DONT CRY

[@william-abel]

Don’t read it. You’ll be an unproductive member of society for a month

[@Jeremysepicreads]

I say they were lovers!

[@markwiygul6356]

The important question is "Would it have even mattered to their society, if they did, or didn't?" Probably not. After all, they would not have had children whether they did or didn't. That's sort of like asking a gay couple exactly what they do . . . if it's A or B or C or none of the above or all of the above, or only A&C or A&B or C&B ??? we don't care for all those precise details. The Greeks cared for even less details than we do now for "gay couples" that say they are "gay". It doesn't really matter in our society exactly what they do, specifically, except that they said they are a "gay couple". For the ancient Greeks, it didn't matter exactly what a male-male couple did, if anything, except that they were "philos", (male friends or loved ones) and they had phileo (love or devotion) to one another, and they had a philia for one another (male-male love) and possibly might of had Eros for each other as well, we don't know (erotic love, maybe with or without "banging together"). And they were together all the time. (a couple). It's best to describe Their Relationship with Greek Words, or English Words Derived from Greek, to help understand how they felt. "Friend" is a German word, that they Did Not Have "Friends" in ancient Greek, they had Philos (male loved ones). And they did not have the word "gay" or "homosexual" either. Different Cultures. They defined what one wanted to know about each other differently back then. And, sex wasn't a "sin" either, they didn't even have the word "sin" in their vocabulary (sin is Latin). They had Ethics (ethos meaning Character) and they had Philosophy. And they had Myths to explain the unexplainable, but they didn't rely on Religion to guide one through the difficulties of life ("Religion and Morality" are both Latin words) The Greeks used Philosophy to guide them in their lives. And they relied on Gnosis (knowledge) unlike many folks today. - - - Now, do I think they had Sex. Absolutely YES. I think that would have been the norm for a couple back then, an older Patroclus would have had his beloved Achilles, and adored him, and protected him, and slept with him too. And he died in battle wearing his armor, probably to Fight for Him, because he hadn't grown into his armor yet. For the record, there is no mention of Achilles have any erotic relationship with anyone, male or female. Ditto for Patroclus. Considering these were MALES, and they were not guilded males, or eunuchs, then sexuality was not viewed as a sin, and there was no concept of "celibacy for morality" then I think it highly likely they would have slept together affectionately. I think that's normal. As they got older, and had they survived, they likely would have taken young wives, Patroclus first, then Achilles would have mentored a younger male as Patroclus had done him, and then eventually Achilles would have married a female later. At the times of their marriages with females, they would have been Experienced, and likely grown tired of being with a male that grows ugly with age, and happily become married to a young teen female, with a Higher Age Difference than the male - male relationship. BTW, having male-male relationships was not considered "gay" or "queer" or anything unnatural or abnormal or different in any way. That is today's culture that defines male-male relationships as "weird, but lets support weird people". It was simply Reality. And the acceptance of natural love and desires.

[@ladyjoujou5094]

Well explained

[@micah_eagle]

It doesn’t matter to me whether they were lovers, just friends, or their relationship didn’t grow beyond brothers in arms, what matters to me and what I feel is the takeaway from their stories is that they loved each other deeply. So deeply in fact that Achilles was willing to walk to his death with no armor to protect himself just for the chance to see Patroclus again. To love and be loved so deeply is the takeaway. Patroclus loved Achilles, and Achilles loved Patroclus. Achilles mourned and grieved, and he raged like a fire in the aftermath of losing his Patroclus. He was willing to do what he must to get his revenge and to somewhat dull the pain his heart was doubt feeling when Patroclus lay dead in his arms. To love someone without restrictions or limitations, to love just as fiercely even beyond death is something that is frightening, but so beautifully tragic that one can’t help but romanticize what they felt. Tragic love is what it was, tragic but ever so beautiful as it was precious. A love we all seek for ourselves. Whether your viewpoints be that they were platonic, or romantic, there is no denying that they were soulmates, and the universe, try as it may, could never separate them for very long. They were the true ride or die, and no other love story is as deep and as rich as theirs. Platonic or romantic, theres no denying that they loved and they loved so deeply. “He is half of my soul, as the poets say.”

[@Khushi-Shah]

LOVERS !!!!!!!

[@burgerqueen1633]

YES !!!!!

[@bircruz555]

Greek mythology is extremely misunderstood. I wish they knew what it all means.

[@francesgailcalingayan454]

Why? Do you know what it means?

[@bircruz555]

@@francesgailcalingayan454 In fact I do. I studied it for three decades. I do not peddle a construct either. What I know I know in absolute terms. It wont be too long before the world learns what it is all about.

[@bircruz555]

@@messithegoat4111 You mean you want a lesson in KZbin?

[@VesperOfRoses]

Due to the myriad cultural and historical differences between our ideas of what friendship and romance look like, I think the question is one that won't really have an answer that's easy to define in our modern vocabulary. What we do know is that Achilles loved Patroclus more than life itself, otherwise his rage and bloodlust wouldn't have been so famous.

[@evamaria_n]

Very good overview! As for queer portrayals of Achilles & Patroclus - just yesterday the BBC series Troy: Fall of a City gave us the (to my knowledge) first primetime portrayal of them as lovers. (They also have a threesome with Briseis, so by modern standards they're both bi in this version.) Since it's an ensemble show where most characters & relationships are only painted in broad strokes I assume they chose this route as a shortcut to make us understand Achilles' wrath when Patroclus dies (because like you said, our society does put more emphasis on romantic relationships). I'm very much in favour of this, though, because pop culture in the last century has given us countless deep male friendships (usually the ones that have a big slash following, unsurprisingly - from Sherlock & Watson over Kirk & Spock to Starsky & Hutch) and more queer people on tv (and queer people of colour in the case of Troy: Fall of a City, since both Achilles and Patroclus are portrayed by black actors) is a good thing in my book. Anyways, I do apologise for rambling - as you can tell, this is a topic near and dear to my heart. And now I'm going to check out your review of Maurice, one of my all-time favourite books. :)

[@jesuschrist9513]

Fall of a City isn't the most accurate representation. They portray Achilles as so black he almost looks African, which is wrong since he's Achaean, he'd be tanned at the most but that would really only be if he was a slave who worked the fields. They also did this with Zeus, which would also be incorrect since the Greeks believed dark skin = field worker which usually meant slave or servant so they wouldn't have their highest god be so low by their standards. I know people say theres nothing worng with this since Troy was already 'whitewashed' but blonde white Achilles was more accurate than Congolese Achilles. What I'm saying is, take Fall of a City with a grain of salt, the writing was pretty bad as well.

[@SongsofAntiquity]

If you're interested in another adaptation with Achilles and Patroclus as queer people of color, we're making one!

[@gyanlanevsky92]

Gosh.. BBC Troy version was absolutely horrendous and inaccurate on so many levels.

[@1ly.zonevv]

um i'm just here for a school project, basically we need to do a music vid and i chose mr. loverman as song so i just wanna incorporate the anime which i watched (banana fish) and the story of achilles and patroclus with the mv lol-

[@oliviaperera3323]

NOT BANANA FISH NOW IM SAD

[@dosmart]

Do I have to write an epic poem for my d&d game?..

[@shatteredknight1129]

Thank you so much for this. This info is really great and really helpful. Can you please clarify a bit? So the question of whether the events were real or not, is one thing. The question here is more about the ancient text (whether based on fact or fiction) overtly describing them as romantic lovers. Rather than platonic love of your cousin. So pretty much everything indicates platonic, and not romantic. With exception of a review by Plato of the Myrmidon play? Or is it the Myrmidon play itself that portrays romance between them? Also, what about the date of writing? Because it might have been the case that earlier original text/story traditions was was fully platonic (never indicating any romance between the cousins). but then, the other text might have come later as their sort of ancient Song of Achilles gay/romantic take on the stories. Also, what can you say about Patrolcus being older than Achilles? It seems that this was the case, and a misconception that Achilles was the older one. Also, really intelligent observation about society in romance. I have always had that idea of culture in the back of my mind. It's so true that our culture is severely lacking in understanding of platonic love. And indeed does go a bit overboard into imposing sexual and romantic motivations into things. In many cases, when it doesn't exist at all, and is clearly platonic. I think this happened in a book where the author might have had some original intent for Arya and Jon snow to evolve into romance. But then changed is mind. And the how much love there was in all the Stark siblings missing each other for a long time. But users insisting it was romantic.

[@SongsofAntiquity]

Since the Iliad isn't the original source of any of the myths, it's not any more reputable a primary source for Achilles and Patroclus' relationship than any other text is. The "Patroclus is older" take comes from Plato's Symposium, in which Achilles and Patroclus are held up as an ideal relationship. These two have also been important to a lot of historical gay people, including Alexander the Great and his boyfriend Hephaistion, Shakespeare (as portrayed in Troilus and Cressida), and Frederick the Great of Russia (awful human being but so very gay, literally had statues of them). So while the nature of their relationship in the Iliad itself is definitely up for debate, their historical importance to queer people is not. We're making a queer webseries based on the Iliad, so we've done a LOT of research on this. (If you're interested in that, there's more info here: songs-of-antiquity.tumblr.com/ )

[@shatteredknight1129]

@@SongsofAntiquity Sounds nice. But was just looking for any sort of evidence of them being gay from any root sources of those stories. So while none of them overtly claim they were straight. Not only do the stories strongly imply they're straight. Nothing whatsoever even remotely implies they're gay. Although future derivations may have evolved to do so.

[@SongsofAntiquity]

@@shatteredknight1129 1) the root sources literally don't exist 2) they are in fact gay in Aeschylus' Myrmidons, which is a play we no longer have. You're not going to get any conclusive evidence about figures from Greek mythology. There are literally versions of the Trojan War myth in which Helen never makes it to Troy and spends all that time in Egypt instead. There have been varying and contradictory accounts of these characters for at least three thousand years, and considering their cultural legacy, they're more gay than they are straight.

[@shatteredknight1129]

@@SongsofAntiquity Fact = I never said they weren't gay in future derivations. In fact I stated they were. Fact = there cannot be figurative versions. Fact = I was referring to root sources which I already explained regarding how their sexuiality is depicted. Definitely almost conclusively straight. Zero semblance of them being homosexual or lovers with each other.

[@nutyyyy]

I can't agree with you more on the point about friendships vs relationships and how friendship is far less important in modern fiction than relationships. I think this leads to many issues of interpretation of cultures throughout history and even the modern day.

[@mariamann8292]

I think also think that what consits of a friendship and what is a relationship vastly changes over time. In a world, where women don't really count as full intelligent humans, male-male friendships would be a lot more intense.

[@nutyyyy]

@@mariamann8292 Well its as much about social spheres as well. You would interact moreso with your own social group and gender as well. So yes you are quite right. I guess I just prefer seeing strong friendships more often than relationships whether they are straight or gay.

[@caitlinle3426]

lovers yes bang bang bang bang

[@ashlyn888]

I wouldn’t wanna be buried with my best friend. Love her, but nah

[@erwynesantos]

The game Hades brought me here.

[@vishi5147]

Came after that infamous comparison shown in NBC's Hannibal

[@barbarablue2571]

why not both things?

[@arpitalalwani6520]

I will now ignore the fact that i ever saw this. They are and will forever be fruity to me.

[@fishinnitmiles9287]

he didnt love briseus she was literally just a prize and not having the prize is a disgrace apparently

[@romeowalen]

The kind of love Achilles had for Patroclus transcended lust or physical pleasure. I believe they were the best of friends, souls sworn to eternity. They were BROS. I think it would have been directly mentioned if they smashed because that is vital info.

[@thebulba__4957]

They are lovers lmfao.

[@MattieK09]

@@thebulba__4957here is literally no evidence that they were lovers

[@leona530]

friends TO lovers :)

[@palioskatoula]

could you write in greek the thing achilles called briseus cause i couldn't understand, please?

[@tiyab3104]

She's a woman not a thing.

[@woah5159]

Tiya B i think they meant the thing that achilles said about briseus about calling her his most loved or something like that

[@mariusfauru]

@@tiyab3104 you obviously didn't understand the question asked

[@user-sk7vn5vn9x]

there was a prophesy in i think that said he will die in the war but will be remembered so i don't think he would feel suprized that people remember him

[@randomentertainment2325]

The only way anyone can know the truth is by being there at that moment..anybody can write anything about Achilles ..I mean he was famous enough..

[@Jay92925]

Prefer Madeline Miller’s view on this matter

[@lightlawliet3526]

how about friends to lovers?

[@bobnunyabiznz4917]

OF COURSE Achilles and Patroclus were not only the best of friends, they were deeply in love.

[@UrMom-lq4qv]

is the art in the thumbnail of achilles and patroclus or nisus and euralysus? bc ive heard both. sry kinda unrelated but just curius if anyone knows :)

[@luisamarie3589]

Achilles falling for Briseis doesn't bother me. Heck even Odysseus, who won't stop talking about his wife had other lovers,

[@trale8268]

Definitely lovers

[@vincentfrancissaulon8333]

I believe love is subjective and the line between either platonic and romantic love is often blurred in the process of understanding one's feelings of fondness. Although there is evidence that does not suggest explicit confirmation of the kind of relationship they had or limit it as merely best friends, the gestures of inseparable companionship and the depth or richness of their coming-of-age even until death was something impactful and cannot be qualified by mere storytelling alone as it was a given that Patroclus adored Achilles in all his raw and glorious qualities and Achilles cared and mourned him deeply and greatly in their lifetime. This may or may not necessarily be equated to platonic or romantic love but the idea that these gestures alone could define lovers proves an undeniable connection that bonded their souls in their lifetime which was not a result of the queer celebration in modernity nor a devaluation of friendship over romantic love. Facts just speak for themselves, If evidence suggests that they yearned to mix their bones and ashes, then it could mean a grand gesture of eternity would it not? Love should be celebrated and in all the proof layered down to characterize their gestures even without sufficient description of mental or emotional states and interest would still reveal and yield similar interpretations of romantic or even platonic love as soulmates, and that is not to be ashamed of a hero.

[@user-uw1yq3dp2o]

very good very nice

[@adamferencszi797]

Well to be fair since it's been said Homer's Iliad came from oral tradition and so many aspects that were not included in the Iliad eventually came to be accepted as canon , I think it's valid to say they they were lovers. There's plenty of other stuff like Achilles's heel, Cassandra's prophetic nature by apollo, Neoptolemus and Andromache, Philoctetes, Paris' death that doesn't appear in the Iliad but has become so engrained in the telling of the trojan war. At this point I don't think the trojan war belongs to Homer's Iliad alone.

[@christosgiannopoulos828]

Me when reading the Iliad: Finally, a great friendship that doesn't have to lead to a romance The internet: Actually...

[@scotraimer7737]

I could care less about Archilles and Patroclus being gay. I think that what Libby says, that Achilles would be proud that after about 3,000 years we are still talking about Him. If he existed in the first place. I would also LOVE to learn more about what Libby knows about Ancient Greece and new evidence from the digs and findings over there.

[@SuperKing604]

Homer didnt I imply they were more then friends I think, i prefer to think of them as best friends almost like brothers hence achilles grief.

[@wiht3630]

R/sappho and her friend Achilles was prophesied to die if he ever fought but when he found out patrocolus was dead he didnt hesitate Achilles while dying asked to have his ashes mixed with patroclus And not only that in ancient greece homosexuality was a manly trait to have so homer would absolutely write his strong many hero as gay Of course you can interpret it diffferently but sometimes it is confirmed to the point that argument is purely speculative, its like if i tried to argue that harry actually loved ron the whole time despite nothing in any of the books or movies showing that

[@ow10001]

whos here to understand Hannibal's metaphor to Will

[@elinamirbaha]

Me

[@queeniecreates]

Me

[@rebellius_9190]

I'm watching the show just to see said metaphor so I'm the opposite of you guys

[@Ruzemann]

I ship achroclus

[@theauburnfirefox8767]

Its Patrochille

[@MattieK09]

1:18 1184 seems like a pretty close date not out of his @ss

[@mayaraslimene2628]

can you please give us a slight idea about achilles age when he died , please

[@Euro.Patriot]

Around late 20s probably.

[@lumibedalli989]

In my opinion, I believe that its hard to tell if they were friends or lovers. We can just tell them as 2 people that lived being in each others life until the story goes on in more detail. Why can you ask? First of all we dont know if the story that was told in "Iliad" was even real when we dont even know if the "Trojan war" happened since the lady also said that the time is called "The dark circle" and noone os sure of what happened they are just some stories that are told after and some poems that were found. Secondly, yes we all know that in greek mythology it was common for them to be gay and tes for them to cheat in there wifes and yes to have boy/girlfriend even when they are married since from the ancient greek mythology that was very common and that maybe made it even interesting but we cant just say that bcs Pluto said that when he was also based in "Iliad" right? The thing is that there are not really any evidence that proves that they were gay or straigh or were in friendship or realtionship so everyone can believe that they were lovers or friends since we dont know exactly who is right even if we study really deep. Thats my opinion bcs really think about that time was called "The dark circle" we dont even know if they even existed so we dont really know much just the last 3 weeks of The Trojan war

[@cybernatix8630]

Patrochilles for life

[@justicethedoggo3648]

Alexander and Hephastian did exist tho

[@maismaikhemprai9312]

no matter what, I think we can all agree that making Patroclus and Achilles “cousins” in the 2004 movie Troy is the dumbest thing ever.