Epic Fantasy Is Dying And It Is Making Me Sad

[@libraryofaviking]

I'm genuinely enjoying the diverse range of discussions here and deeply value everyone's perspectives. I'd like to take a moment to address a few points for clarity. Firstly, I want to assure you all that my concern isn't rooted in any displeasure towards the popularity of romantasy - albeit it is not a genre I read. In fact, being married to someone who enjoys romantasy, I wholeheartedly support its presence in the fantasy community. My concern lies in publishing houses seemingly abandoning epic fantasy in order to priorities romantasy. I strongly believe that both genres need to flourish side by side! The video was created to highlight that currently epic fantasy does not seem to be flourishing in traditional publishing. While I maintain that a lot of readers are often drawn to epic fantasy and romantasy for different reasons, I want to stress that there's absolutely nothing wrong with enjoying both. In hindsight, I realise my comments may have unintentionally generalised, and for that, I apologise. Lastly, I'm genuinely happy to see the growing number of new readers falling in love with reading due to the rise of romantasy. Seeing people fall in love with reading, regardless of the genre, brings me immense joy. The video was not created to discourage anyone that loves romantasy, but rather to highlight that epic fantasy seems to be declining and it worries me. Making video essays is hard because there is always an immense risk of offending some viewers - and there always seems like there is more I should have said! I hope you can show me understanding and grace as I tried my best to tackle this challenging topic! God bless!

[@Hrafnskald]

Now this is a great take on the situation. I can totally see publishers making bad decisions and neglecting on subgenre or another. And this is a situation where readers and the KZbin community are ideally positioned to push back and change the situation. When KZbinrs see great books being overlooked, they can highlight these and share why they love these stories. Sharing why you love something is the most effective way to interest others-this is why game publishers have embraced "gamer plays my game and shows it is fun" as the best way to share their work. Publishers only have the ability to shape trends when we depend on them to tell us what is good. When we turn to other readers, we take that power back.

[@EmeraldDragon]

I love epic fantasy too, but it all moves is cycles. Epics are on the down swing currently, but they will come back around.

[@ElwoodPDowd1970]

I'm finding a lot of the comments left a bit confusing. It is almost though they're interpreting you saying "I like waffles" to mean you hate pancakes or some such thing.

[@hotplotsandsynonyms]

As a self-published epic fantasy author...traditional publishing houses have actually been hostile toward epic fantasy for a long, long time. They tend to be long books and traditional publishing can make more money on shorter books they can pump out faster. As an example, most if not all agents and traditional publishing houses tell writers that a book longer than about 120k words is too long and needs to be cut, even if that means cutting meaningful plotlines or important characters. I encourage you to come over to the self-pub world, and start with Zack Argyle, or Rob J. Hayes. I'd recommend my book (and I do), but they have more books out. :)

[@cha0sunity]

Sanderson was once asked if Vin and Elend were sleeping together. He responded with something along the lines of "yes, but my readers don't really care to see that so I let it play out in the background." I can't speak for everyone else, but I read fantasy for the fantastical, not for a daytime tv soap opera.

[@libraryofaviking]

Love Sanderson for being willing to not write explicit sexual scenes!

[@davidsmithy123]

I am one of his readers. Would love to see it if written well.

[@cha0sunity]

@@libraryofaviking I just finished Age of Madness yesterday. After that, I think I'm ready for a little less explicit content for awhile.

[@bluecannibaleyes]

I remember hearing this before I read any of his books. It made me have a lot of respect for him and actually made me pick up the Mistborn series. I loved it, and it was largely because it was actual fantasy not romance.

[@SI-vb7hd]

Well said

[@Hrafnskald]

Subgenre popularity is always cyclical. Epic Fantasy became popular after Tolkien, then receded for a while. The Lord of the Rings movies made it popular again, and now it is decreasing in popularity. This is normal. It is not dead or impossible to write, it is merely less popular now. It will become popular again.

[@alb0zfinest]

No it didn't lmao. Lord of the Rings has been popular basically since it was published, and epic fantasy has been popular ever since as well. Epic fantasy was popular in the 80s, and then expanded in popularity in the 90s with big shots like Martin and Jordan. In the 2000s it continued to grow. The decline started with Sanderson and his books being included which are basically just YA posing as adult fantasy. Once that door was opened you had all kinds of bad writers included to the point that now furry porn is practically considered fantasy too.

[@Hrafnskald]

@@alb0zfinest I worked for a major bookstore chain during the years when the Lord of the Rings film came out. I saw the rise in sales in Epic Fantasy, with new fans coming in specifically in response to the movies. LotR was popular before, it experienced a surge in popularity in the wider reading public after the movies came out. Furry porn has nothing to do with Fantasy.

[@Rhand007]

@@alb0zfinest It wasn't Sanderson that made Epic Fantasy decline, it was the likes of Martin, Rothfuss and Lynch not finish their series which created a massive mindset switch in readers. People started to focus on shorter and finished series, and only start longer series if they are nearly finished.

[@Zuzana_L]

@@alb0zfinest finally someone said it. Sanderson is not adult fantasy

[@AlexBrown230]

I think the problem is fantasy doesn't offer much. Some science fiction subgenres are also going out but science fiction is a lot less samey as fantasy. 1984 is science fiction as is Neuromancer, Blade Runner, Ringworld, The Expanse, Battlestar Galactica, Starship Troopers, Black Mirror and Star Wars. I tried to get into fantasy but it just didn't take for me, after a while elves, dwarves, warriors, wizards and dragons start to blur. Where i can read Do Android Dream of Electric Sheep or 1984 and get insight into humanity or philosophy or ideas, i don't feel i get the same out of fantasy

[@JoaoSilvaWrites]

I have no issue with Romantasy and other subgenres existing. Clearly, people want to read them. My issue is that there seemingly isn't room for epic fantasy anymore, with fewer and fewer debuts getting published.

[@ProudPlatypus]

There's supply chain issues in the publishing industry at the moment, the genres getting pushed out are the ones that tend to produce longer books. Romance is a huge genre, and this is a continuation of the success of twilight as a romance + genre mix.

[@alb0zfinest]

@@ProudPlatypusThe opposite is true lol. Publishers want shorter books (the more pages the less money they make. Because you'll find alot of 900 page books with similar prices as a 300 page book). They want longer series but that's something quite different.

[@boomerbyll3004]

That’s how I feel about super hero movies. They killed fantasy and sci-fi.

[@ProudPlatypus]

You miss read me, or maybe I could have worded it better, that's what I meant. Publishers have been introducing stricter word limits to for new authors/series.

[@VirideSoryuLangley]

Because females now control what gets published.

[@nova6339]

Traditional publishers are currently focused on quick profits. They want something that takes little to no time to edit and to put on shelves. Epic fantasy takes a long time to write and revise. They are looking for a cash cow, not a masterpiece.

[@alb0zfinest]

The horrendous prose in new fantasy is very indicative of this. Have to appeal to even those barely literate otherwise that's a profit bracket you could be missing. 😆

[@Hrafnskald]

Why is epic Fantasy in decline? Authors are not finishing their epics. How many years have we waited for Winds of Winter, much less Dream of Spring? And the same pattern repeats with other authors. Many readers don't want to commit to an epic that they know will never be finished.

[@emiliapawny4746]

One of the reasons I'm much more likely to pick up self-contained stories or duologies/trilogies of shorter books these days

[@adamnesico]

Wich aren’t finishing their epics, apart of George, Patrick and Robert Bakker? Brandon Sanderson, Ken Liu, Raymond Feist, Mercedes Lackey, Robin Hobb... Are very consistent writers. Is unfair to blame a gender for just the failure of 3.

[@HeavyTopspin]

@@adamnesico When you consider that Martin and Rothfuss are huge names and aren't just not finishing, but literally leaving their fans in limbo for a decade, that fear is certainly there, along with what could have been an even bigger nightmare when Robert Jordan passed away. WoT was popular and influential enough to manage to get a top-tier writer in to complete the series, but you can't count on that with a brand new author. Consider if something were to happen to Rothfuss, for instance - absolutely nobody can write in his voice, so you'd either wind up with an unfinished series, or else completion with a substantial change in writing style.

[@TheHi_King]

@@adamnesico It's laughable you consider Brandon Sanderson epic fantasy when the only criteria he meets is his books are stupidly long. Not a lot of substance despite the 1200 page word count per book.

[@adamnesico]

@@TheHi_King He does epic fantasy, That he puts a lot of straw (something that Martin loves to do too) doesn’t changes it.

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

Thank the fates that self-publishing has become so viable. With the availability of excellent freelance editors, artists, cover designers, and more, self-publishing fantasy authors can achieve the highest standard if they’re willing and able to put in the time and effort. The creative freedom alone makes it well worth the effort. Thank you for the video, Johan!

[@libraryofaviking]

Self-publishing is amazing! I am so pleased the community is thriving and is putting out so much good work!

[@larryladeroute971]

No one told Phillip epic fantasy was dying!!!

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

@@larryladeroute971 I somehow missed that memo. 😁

[@iWizard]

@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Philip, my wife and I are writing a fantasy novel, as you know, and we've been getting immediately rejected by all agents we've applied to, except for Matt Bialer who's asked for a rewrite and suggested maybe get a developmental editor. We can tell on Query Tracker that they're not even reading our query letter in a lot of cases, just rejecting immediately when they see the word count and when they see it's epic fantasy. So we decided to hire AP Canavan. Matt Bialer has agreed to reread our manuscript once AP is done with it---he's heard of AP---but if that doesn't work out, we're very likely going to indie publish.

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

@@iWizard AP is the best, but, even with his input and having an agent like Matt Bialar behind you, the odds are stacked against you in traditional publishing. I hope you make it! If you don’t, I hope you’ll find self publishing as satisfying as I have.

[@ladyethyme]

Rings of Power didn't die because it was epic fantasy, it died because it was one of the worst written shows that I've seen on television in a long time. I think the popularity of several authors they write epic fantasy are proof that some thing that is well written will sell just fine. But Netflix and others are trying to blame the consumer instead of the truckload of flaming shyte they want us to eat.

[@Hrafnskald]

Well said. Hello Future Me did a deep dive into all the reasons why it failed as a story, Well over an hour long :)

[@nestorcaceres8928]

Facts

[@theyoungenzo713]

The same can be said with the witcher adaptation.

[@EarhirX]

Best example is Halo show vs Fallout show

[@Silver-Freddy]

Absolutely. Everyone was excited for it, they just want to blame epic fantasy as a way to avoid responsibility

[@PetrikLeo]

Thanks for the shoutout! It's really fortunate we have self-publishing. I just read Return to Edan by Philip Chase. Even reading that made me realize further that traditional publishing is not publishing books like this anymore.

[@FrancT-]

Epic fantasy on the silver screen isn't dying because interest is declining, but because the adaptations are just bad. They fail to capture their fans and stay with audiences. I mean, after LOTR and GOT we haven't seen any very successful adaptations.

[@Linklex7]

House of the Dragon & Sandman has been hits, but yeah Wheel of Time and Rings of Power were pretty awful.

[@Osyrous]

I think the deeper problem is the audience. With social media audience trends are chaotic. And a studio who is shelling out millions have to have a target audience. Look at rings of power, and the wheel of time (even the acolyte even though that's not a book adaptation) and the problems are glaring. Are these shows made for the book readers, the original fans, only new fans with no prior knowldge. If stories were still written by humans maybe these issues won't be so glaring. But they aren't. rop and WOT are ai written screen plays that are proof read by humans before productions. No human story actually plays out the way things play out in these shows. Because the stories are written by non humans who think they understand humans. *takes tin foil hat off*. Okay rant over.

[@Mister_Sosotris]

I don’t have anything against romantasy, but I do know that romance as a genre is the most profitable book genre by far. Romance pays the bills for many publishers so they can publish other things. The romantasy boom is making publishers BOATLOADS of money, and so they’re going to follow the money until that runs out. But I love epic fantasy, and I know that, once the Romantasy market becomes over-saturated, epic fantasy will be poised to make a comeback. But ultimately, epic fantasy will never be as profitable as romance, so we need publishers to invest in new epic fantasy authors eventually.

[@pasoapasoconmervo6734]

New epic fantasy here, is the key

[@Mister_Sosotris]

@@pasoapasoconmervo6734 yeah, it’s just hard to get publishers to invest in something that is historically less profitable. I hope that changes!

[@elainez]

@@pasoapasoconmervo6734 The problem is, romance is easy to make money off of because it is indulgent. It is fun and easy to read and get into, and often times more emotional on the surface. Its themes are apparent, while those of the Lord of the Rings require a bit more thinking to do. When Character A and Character B finally get together, everyone's happy, but when Frodo finally completes his journey to Mordor but the Ring gets the better of him at last, and it turns out Gollum is the one who finally finishes the work, it leaves readers wondering "what was the point of all that, then?" Not many people will then be bothered to think more about the book's themes.

[@Linklex7]

Everything is cyclical.

[@mariafernandaribeiro6606]

Hi! I'm Brazilian, and you can't imagine how hard it is to find fantasy in Portuguese (pt-br). Discworld, Malazan, Wheel of Time, Farseer trilogy were all left unfinished. So many people who don't speak English won't be able to read them. Mistborn and Elantris are out of stock and you have to pay 5x their price to buy them, and we don't even know when other Sanderson's books are going to be released. Some others, like Jade City and She Who Became the Sun, and even Legends and Lattes, don't do well because the publishers don't even promote them. Lately, I've been focusing on learning English to read there series since it seems they won't be published here...

[@nadias.mariano2196]

Fiquei surpresa ao não encontrar os livros da Roda do Tempo depois de ler o primeiro. Como assim uma das obras de maior sucesso da fantasia está inacessível? Me fez questionar o que eles estão publicando??

[@mariafernandaribeiro6606]

@@nadias.mariano2196 Pois é! Depois da série até achei que fossem lançar o resto, mas pararam no oitavo, que tinha o preço de capa de 130 reais... Tem o ebook deles na Amazon, mas foram esgotando os físicos e a intrínseca nem reimprimiu.

[@wordpainting3]

Wheel of Time was finished by Brandon Sanderson and he did an amazing job. I wouldn't have known it wasn't Jordan if I didn't know about his death.

[@shaunduquette5992]

Any used book stores in your country?Someone might have donated.

[@arthurhaag9434]

​@@shaunduquette5992there are a lot, but those fantasy books are sooo rare

[@theo-dr2dz]

Epic fantasy doesn't have to come in very long series. Lord of the Rings is three books. The entire thing is a bit over 1000 pages, with another 100 or so pages of appendices, and those are optional. There are separate books of ASOIAF that are longer than the entire Lord. Narnia is some 7 or 8 books but those are short books. All together probably far under 1000 pages. Lord Dunsany did epic fantasy in the form of short stories. The Odyssee is not particularly long, a few hundred pages if I have to guess. Terry Pratchett's discworld books are not a series, it's all stand-alone stories that just share a setting and a cast of characters. If you want to write a multipart series approaching 5000 or even 10000 pages, you need enough material to fill it. That is not easy. And it will be hard for the writer to finish it. In many cases it is a sign of lack of discipline and planning on the writers' side. Nothing wrong with keeping it at least somewhat compact.

[@neale6144]

The King of Elfland’s Daughter by Lord Dunsany is an incredible work.

[@shadowhawkkedro]

This. The epic fantasy I usually read is chunked into arcs of 1-4 books, with each book being reasonably sized. LOTR, Shannara, Drizzt, Pern (if you want to count that). Sounds to me like we have different definitions of "epic" fantasy. I'm much more likely to pick up something projected to be a trilogy than I am an "epic, multi-length saga" with no end in sight because that's such a huge commitment, for both me and the writer.

[@colofthedead6101]

Ture, but all 3 books are well over 100k words. Fellowship is close to 200k. Simultaneously trying to keep your epic fantasy to one book and keeping it

[@MrEzuli]

@@colofthedead6101 The entire LOTR is about as long as Way of Kings. And this is very much a con against Way of Kings and a huge plus to LOTR.

[@TalesofTheEndTimes]

Short stories and novellas give you so much freedom to explore so many things…. But I think that any number of words is not really what epic fantasy is about. The mythical, the fantastical - the EPIC is more of a matter of presentation than it is any question of length. Take the following as my perspective on the Epic, as it relates to Fantasy, and how much length I think you need to make fantasy epic: It was a dream awoken, and a promise broken. Erik said we couldn’t do it, and I said he was wrong; that we would return with Gold, and Glory, and Dragon scales! But we were Fools, the both of us: There lies dead Dagon Dragonking, and there lies dead everything that matters. There was no Gold. There is no Glory. And though I hold a scale in my hands… I cannot carry it down from the World’s Crown. The weight is too heavy - my heart is too heavy. Alisa, forgive me. Erik, I’m sorry. Jen’tja, it was my fault. Morden, you weren’t to blame. Samael, I led you astray. Bazel, I took your life away. Gerrick, I wish we could go back. This nightmare called Life, I will end it with this knife. I pray, Gerrick, Bazel, Samael, Morden, Jen’tja, Erik, Alisa: that my sacrifice sets things right in the eyes of the Gods. That they let you live again. Please, let them live again.

[@stillbuyvhs]

Why not make longer series of shorter books? Still epic, but each book costs less to produce. Think "The Chronicles of Prydain."

[@davidsmithy123]

yeah epic fantasy books are often too long. It does get exhausting to read the same prose/style for 1000 pages - even it is a good book overall.

[@Hrafnskald]

Exactly. Or Chronicles of Amber: 10 books with a total length less than 1 Martin epic. Or The Dark is Rising series. Or even the Belgariad and Mallorean.

[@JohnAndrewMacDonald]

@@Hrafnskald My view exactly. I feel there are just too many massive tomes. It is, relatively speaking, a rather new thing. And it seems that it has not lasted long.

[@celebenarinya]

Yes, this is just what i was thinking. I've got this story to tell, but who said it had to be in only 5 books? I can spread it out and give it in smaller chunks as necessary.

[@celebenarinya]

@@Hrafnskald OH MY GOSH my family just finished the Belgariad last night!!!! YESSS

[@Talking_Story]

Great video as always my friend. I have noticed that the 5 book series announcement is almost exclusively a thing in the indie world. Seems to be where the boundaries are open and able to be pushed theses days are there.

[@libraryofaviking]

Thanks, mate!

[@AndrewDMth]

And, Indies can put out an Epic series (whether 3 or 8 books) in half the time!

[@Talking_Story]

@@AndrewDMth so true!

[@chucklitka2503]

I doubt that epic fantasy is dying. It's simply moving to a new home on ebooks, where production costs are far less an issue, and there is a very large audience for new fantasy series. As you pointed out, if you want to read traditionally published epic fantasy, you have a lifetime of books available to you already. No need for new ones. If you want new ones, go the ebook/self-published route.

[@alb0zfinest]

What a bizarre way of thinking. We have plenty of classics from the 18th century, enough to last 5 lifetimes, why publish more high fiction literature? Let's just get those classics on kindle and we're good to go.

[@chucklitka2503]

@@alb0zfinest Some readers read most of their books from Kindle Unlimited, other readers read mostly traditionally published paper books. Some genre and sub-genre sell far better as ebooks, others sell better as paper books. For example, progressive fantasy and RPG lit sells very well as ebooks, but are generally not be found in paper books. The same may be now true for epic fantasy - today's authors, unable to sell epic fantasy to publishers, are finding their audience by selling their books - the way they want to write their books - directly to readers via becoming author/publishers - and probably make more money as well. But if you don't want to read author-published epic fantasy, a ton of it has been published in the last 40 years. All you have to do is find it. (And if traditional publishers aren't interested in publishing new epic fantasy series - you don't have a choice, do you?)

[@weregretohio7728]

It's bad news for those of us who desire accessibility. Outside of myself, I'm thinking of the child parked at the library never being able to pick up something new because it's just not there. How many paths diverted because the stuff they might enjoy is going to be forever buried in side channels underneath the deluge of quick cash-ins on behalf of the publishing industry? Or maybe everything will be digital and it won't matter either way. For me, there's just no way I'm ever going to keep up with the new stuff because it's not right there in front of me.

[@chucklitka2503]

@@weregretohio7728 I quite agree that it is hard to browse ebooks, and most of them you have to pay for. I've been a library user all my life, and really appreciate being able to just pick an interesting book off the shelf. I'm currently reading Peter Ellis's Brother Cadfael mysteries again, after finding them in the library probably 30 years ago. What goes out of fashion eventually becomes fashionable again. You just have to wait for it to happen. And live long enough:)

[@sorenpx]

There are a lot of people like myself who have little interest in reading a book electronically. I spend enough time staring at a screen as it is.

[@Aigra]

I think we need to acknowledge that Fantasy can feel intimidating to those who are not used to it. Especially high Fantasy that comes with world building and magic systems and other things that aren't even part of the vocabulary of readers of other genres. BUT this is where Romantasy and cozy Fantasy and also urban Fantasy can help to bridge the gap. Who says the Romantasy reader of today isn't the epic Fantasy reader of tomorrow? I have recommended proper Fantasy to several disappointed Fourth Wing readers already ...

[@KaiOpaka]

"Proper fantasy" is it very gatekeepy phrase. Epic fantasy is just one type.

[@alb0zfinest]

Who gives af if it's intimidating lol? If it's intimidating then don't read it. You don't have to pollute a genre to make it accessible to a few more idiots. High Fantasy was doing fine long before the mass publication of YA.

[@Aigra]

​@@KaiOpaka Gatekeepy phrase? 🤣 What "gate" am I keeping from you exactly by point out that romance with a few Fantasy elements thrown in is not the same thing as Fantasy with complex world building, magic systems etc.? But can show new readers a way into the genre? Oh wait ... that's actually OPENING a "gate". 🤣

[@Aigra]

@@alb0zfinest Obviously, those who want to sell High Fantasy books should care about drawing in new readers. It just makes sense from a marketing POV to have "entry level" products available along with more sophisticated products. Yes, I wish publishing wasn't all about making money, but it is what it is. And I don't think we can compare the publishing industry of today with a time before, say, Harry Potter. For example, the market for entertainment - think streaming services, social media apps ... - is so much more competitive now.

[@KaiOpaka]

@Aigra You're gatekeeping the definition of fantasy. That's wrong. All fantasy is fantasy, and you're not more of a proper fantasy fan for liking what you like.

[@TheArtfulBrittani]

Sadly, I don't think Epic Fantasy is "mainstream" enought anymore. Publishing is so focused on special editions, hype, FOMO, and social media push. I also am wondering about the "attention span" aspect of a longer book and book series. 300 or less pages seems to be the average for normal readers, also I'd like to see a study on the amount of current readers. As avid readers I think we sometimes forget alot of people don't make time to read, don't have much time to read, or don't read at all.

[@mvprindle]

Every time I see someone say a 500+ page book is too long, I die a little inside.

[@SavannahSedai]

I agree here. I have friends who are AVID readers. They will finish 10 books a month and then side eye me for still being on the same one book (we are all grown with kids). Well because I'm working my way through the stormlight archives and they won't read a book over 315 pages. WHICH IS FINE! No shade to them at all!! But they won't even consider epic fantasy because "it takes too long". I only personally know a handful of people, and only 1 other female, who will read epics anymore.

[@bluecannibaleyes]

@@mvprindle To be fair, I’ve read a lot of 500+ page books that WERE too long and kind of got redundant and dragged out too much. Like, I read Mists of Avalon recently and it did not need to be 850+ pages IMO. In that case there was so much time spent going around in circles about the same subjects, scenes, and conversations over and over and not advancing the plot. It depends on the book, though, and I wouldn’t say that ALL 500 books are too long. But a lot of extremely long books could probably be cut down quite a bit, IMO.

[@cup1966wow]

​@@mvprindleWhile I don't think it's long, for some reason this year I have really been into books that have been the 200 to 400 page length. I just find that a lot of author struggle not to meander when they start getting above 500 and especially towards the 1000. Not to say it can't be done as I love Stormlight Archive and my favourite series is Malazan. But it does feel good to just have a story that's done in a shirt time.

[@KaiOpaka]

We need to have a conversation about how many people with ADHD want to plow through these long books but are not super supported by the Booktube and Booktok communities. It's not the books' fault for being long, and it's not their fault for having ADHD. They see all these videos about how many books people are reading per month, and all these TBRs for 'real fans' and it's just so deflating. There are a lot of ND people in the sci-fi/fantasy community, and it would be really helpful if people accounted for that more than they seem to while making/commenting on content. Is somebody keeps rereading the same paragraph on Tom Bombadil that's not that they don't enjoy fantasy (or even Tom Bombadil 😉).

[@jenniferclark677]

There is room for both! I plan to read both Wheel Of Time and Fourth Wing- as you said, they are very different things.

[@Hrafnskald]

Same. I love Tolkien, I love 4th Wing, and I love WoT. Each series is different, but they are all good.

[@tristandukes5548]

Fourth Wing definitely isn't for me. But you know what? There's plenty of room for both. I can't keep up with all the big epic fantasies on my list, and people all have different tastes

[@Tinahgirl83]

This! I love both.

[@aw9667]

Exactly. I am hoping the romantasy genre continues to grow and improve bc SJM and 4th Wing were just not for me, but I’m glad others like it and I believe that more exposure to the genre will allow for better options for me in time! Also, I’ve still seen quite a few new comers in the “epic” genre that should be getting more love bc they absolutely deserve it

[@FNownATzz]

Place for both yeah yeah you're not special go read badly written and boring dragon smut.

[@mikesbookreviews]

LOL A++++++++ thumbnail

[@mattj2118]

I love epic fantasy, but honestly, a move towards standalones for debut authors is probably a good thing. If your first book is 800 pages, that’s a big ask for an unknown. Give me a taste of your writing and a complete story in 400 pages or less for your first book please.

[@automatonlexicon1251]

Something like romantasy seems like it should be a subgenre of romance instead of fantasy. It doesn't really follow the themes or substance of the fantasy genre. Rather, it tends to be a romance book written within a fantasy flavored world.

[@luizfelipemartins630]

hi everyone, i'm from Brazil, i'm just 18, trying to publish my book of fantasy, it'll be my first project at this area and i'm working hard on this. Fantasy is one the best genres in my opinion, and there are many good stories to be told, i hope many new ones come out

[@OnlyTheBestFantasyNovels]

The backlog taking precedence over the new releases is a factor to the discussion I didn't even consider before. I do read a lot of new releases but it's mainly because I have indeed already made it past that backlog and have the time to do so. Unfortunately, I don't think the epic fantasy crowd is even a fraction of the romantasy crowd, who're basically YA readers from 10/15 years ago looking for adult versions of the books they grew up on. So I suspect fantasy as a genre has made a shift we won't see a change back from for the forseeable future. Why spend $10 to make $13 when you can spend that same $10 and make $40, right. Self publishing and boutique presses are going to have to pick up the slack.

[@toreum]

I just really don’t think this is a big deal. If you got a TBR shelf, perfect time to chip at it. And if you’re one of the very very VERY few people who somehow have read every single epic fantasy. Just read something else.

[@MariaMightReadThat]

I really appreciate the pinned comment clarifications and your willingness to engage in discussion. I’m a reader of both epic fantasy and romantasy and did feel from the tone of the video that one was being dismissed as less valid than the other, so thank you for addressing that. However, I still want to say that it’s possible to discuss if publishing is pivoting from epic fantasy to romantasy without disparaging romantasy books or readers. I don’t recall seeing this tone of reaction when grimdark was on the rise after ASOIAF. Regardless of opinion on Fourth Wing’s quality, it would be nice to see a more respectful approach to the subgenre and people who find value in it (especially since it’s largely a female-represented space and fantasy largely hasn’t been until recently). Just some thoughts on what could be a better approach to this discussion in future.

[@quantus5875]

Same here I do appreciate your pinned comment. No genre is better than any other. No one should be disparaged because they like a certain genre. So yes -- thanks for the pinned comment. Looks like you learned something. Thanks!

[@MariaRodriguez-dx6sm]

What you call a "respectful conversation"? Because by my experience anythings that isn't sing praises to Romantasy and it's authors is considered "disrespectful" and "misogynistic" while totally ignoring all the disrespectful and misogynistic stuff in the books they love

[@adrianavanhoofrodriguez576]

The problem that i personally have with romantasy is that some authors are not involved enough on their stories and leave stuff (such as characters, worldbuilding, plot pacing, twists and prose) half baked. That is, im afraid, also fault of the publishers, since romantasy is getting so vastly popular to shove out as many books of that genre out as they can. I dont have an issue with the genre, but the authors that arent investing enough time on their world and rush out the romance and sex scenes. For example, Fourth Wing (yes im aware the first sex scene doesnt happen till 300 pages in, but hear me out), it has a great and badass sounding premise of a military dragon academy, but Rebecca Yarros is lazy, and it shows. The rules inside the academy dont make sense, the dragon laws contradict themselves, Violet's disability is used whenever the author feels like it (on pair on Violet being childish, impatient and slow, despite being described as smart and witty), the romance is forced and awkward and the plot is predictable. Now, she had the opportunity to redeem all this in Iron Flame, but Red Tower pushed her to release the second book within the same year as the first one (which is barely any time at all for editing and corrections in the plot), plus Red Tower being infamous for their laziness when it comes to editing books and how they treat their writers. Romantasy has become part of the hyperconsumption that prevails on social media nowadays, which i find incredibly upsetting since the genre could be an outlet for people to mix their two favourite genres together and create wonderful fantasy worlds with great character relationships and development, but im afraid thats getting displaced in order to market these books as "spicy" (If you read/write erotica theres no issue with that, but it becomes a problem when publishers push their writers to write smut in their books and market most of them as such)

[@goldikaanimes6725]

So....moral of the story for debut authors, try to do self-publishing other than doing traditional publishing.

[@goldikaanimes6725]

Actually, I had seen many fantasy books on Wattpad, and many of the authors actually self publish their books in Amazon, which I am kinda surprised that debut authors can do that.

[@goldikaanimes6725]

And those authors have about 12k to 13k views for each chapters of their novels in Wattpad which is kinda a... shock? Yeah, a shock, for me I think.

[@momo_genX]

You are right. Plus, it's not like Traditional publishers want to do any book marketing anyway. It won't be long that queries to trads will be auto-rejected for not having platforms, if it's not already the case.

[@goldikaanimes6725]

Like seriously, they could go for traditional publishing but they went for self-publishing on Amazon instead, like whut?!

[@goldikaanimes6725]

@@momo_genX Yeah I know right? Like seriously, the authors have to help market the books themselves on Instagram and Threads, other than traditional marketing, which is kinda crazy.

[@corbinfreeman6607]

Epic fantasy isn’t dying, it’s just evolving. Sure, publishers might not be looking for longer series, but fantasy authors have been returning to older series, like Abercrombie writing standalones and a sequel series to First Law and Brent Weeks returning to Night Angel. Publishers don’t want to commit to a long series like Wheel of Time because it’s pretty likely that there will be a drop off in audience. Multiple series in the same world however allows authors to keep writing their worlds while allowing for many different entry points to their overall series. So instead of seeing more series like Wheel of Time, I think we’re going to get more series like Realm of the Elderlings

[@ChancyC]

I agree 100% with this take. As an avid reader of fantasy, these publishers already have my money, but I have yet to get anyone I know to actually get through the entire Wheel of Time series (most don't make it past book 1). It is simply not financially responsible to have a "book 7" in any series now days because so few people will actually pick it up. BUT if you have 15 books set in the same world, multiple trilogies and multiple stand alone, that is far more likely to be picked up by the casual reader. There are a few exceptions to this, but they are the 1/10,000 examples..

[@libraryofaviking]

Good take!

[@jace76ful]

The world is a competitive place. All it does is open the doors for more competition. Everyone is obsessed with the idea that these huge corporations are immortal, which is just not true. If you run your business closed-minded, it only adds fuel to the fire for someone else swooping in and taking over your missed opportunity.

[@alb0zfinest]

Yeah that's what they said about sweatshops and fast fashion. That all these corporations would go out of business for both being unethical and selling trash products that don't last. Yet instead of those disappearing, sweatshops and shit quality clothing became the norm lol. Capitalism doesn't reward doing good business lol

[@virginiajb]

I think it also has to do with the younger new readers. People are getting more and more impatient, they are not willing to invest so much time in reading a long book. They want to finish everything quickly. However, I think good epic fantasy will never die. Readers like me that love long good books will continue reading epic fantasy.

[@L.L.MacRae]

Self-publishing is such a lifeline to so many stories that otherwise would not be written (or certainly bought by the trad publishers) - all those stories we crave, with non-mainstream characters and story structures (and epic fantasy among them, of course) are shoved aside in favour of quicker, "more commercially viable" subgenres and niches. Much like Hollywood that keeps rehashing and remaking old IPs, the trad people seem to want to take fewer and fewer risks Epic fantasy is one of the oldest forms of story telling - pure escapism around a campfire! Seeing all the modern twists and takes on such a classic genre is what keeps me excited to keep reading (and writing)! I do think that certain tropes and genres have phases (remember when everyone was going crazy for vampires and werewolves after Twilight's success), and I do think we're going to have a big boom in popularity of epic fantasy soon enough :D

[@RichelleTrickel]

On a note of word count, I admit I have read a whole bunch of books that maybe shouldn’t have been only 100K books, but they definitely should have had less words than they did. Maybe good editors that not only make corrections , but also help you hone your book, are being cut to lower costs as well.

[@deromilly]

In trad publishing? From what I've heard from friends this is exactly what's happened. they're cutting costs wherever they think they can. Editors were also the first to go in my career field of technical writing. And documentation has suffered for it.

[@Space.Panda1805]

0:40 Tolkien and romance authors like Jane Austen are crying in their grave now 😱Not only Epic fantasy is out now, sweet romance is really hard to find. I think the guilty is TikTok 😓

[@sarahsuze7742]

I think a large part of it is that people can't write from the heart anymore. There is so much scrutiny, author's having their work looked at from under a microscope for what social faux pas it commits. People won't create good art if they're so constrained.

[@alb0zfinest]

I think that plays a small role, but in general I think newer authors are just terribly poor writers. It's genuinely baffling comparing the writing of someone like Abercrombie to someone like Sanderson (and the worst part being there are many worse still) for example. This dude churns out books left and right, yet despite all that writing, it still reads like someone writing a high school essay.

[@IzzyZil20]

@@alb0zfinest I mean they both have been writting for around the same time and obviously Sanderson works for a lot of people. They are just two very different flavors of fantasy

[@alb0zfinest]

@@IzzyZil20 I purposely mentioned them to show what the norm is vs the exception (Abercrombie). If I had mentioned someone like Martin I figured you wouldn't like the comparison because he's a more seasoned writer. It's not about grim dark vs middle of the road fantasy, we're talking strictly the quality of writing. Dialogue, prose, pacing etc. And in this regard, Sanderson and pretty much most new fantasy writers are inferior. Very little witty dialogue, usually high school level prose, characters rarely display cleverness and intelligence, the transplanting of modern archetypes to a kind of medieval world ruins any kind of immersion etc etc. They're just poorly crafted. I don't know if it's from lack of creativity or little to no reading on their part but the terrible prose alone is telling enough. They need more time evaluating and pondering and less time vomiting up every thought into a page. Editors are at fault here as well, but there is only so much they can do.

[@sarahsuze7742]

@@alb0zfinest yeah I think that's true too, a lot of modern writing is appalling.

[@IzzyZil20]

@@alb0zfinest I think I understand your point. I just don’t think I necessarily agree with picking Sanderson specifically because I know plenty of veteran fantasy fans who also likes Sanderson so he must obviously appeal to both fantasy readers and veteran fantasy readers. Like maybe pros and characters aren’t as deeper complex as Joe Abercrombie but storm light archive is still very good fantasy series. My opinion.

[@crazyforbooksandcoffee]

I feel like we should be able to have both ! I read epic fantasy and spicy easy fantasy and love both equally 😊❤

[@libraryofaviking]

Yes, let's hope publishing houses are able to find a good balance!

[@tehufn]

Indie Epic Fantasy mentioned in this video - Philip C. Quaintrell - Ryan Cahill - Will Wight - JA. Andrews (around 9:55)

[@Hrafnskald]

Plenty of people enjoy both Epic Fantasy, and Romance Fantasy, and Mystery Fantasy. Hating on other subgenres is inherently counterproductive. Instead, we should be asking where the Epic Fantasies are that are complete, like we had with Eddings and Jordan. Why are authors with large fan bases abandoning their stories in the middle of the Epic?

[@ElijsDima]

Well, saying that we had a "complete" story with Robert Jordan is... not quite accurate. But, you're right, there is a bit of a trend of heavyweight fantasy authors (Martin, Lynch, Rothfuss) just stopping midway, or (like Sanderson) making an endless story of tens and tens of books...

[@alb0zfinest]

It's not counterproductive lol. In fact rivalries usually bring in more readers. But even if it didn't bring more readers, bringing in more trash should be criticized. Just as in cinema the flood of garbage superhero movies and reality tv has done permanent damage to good cinema, the same will be true of Romance fantasy (that basically reads like teen porn) flooding high fantasy.

[@Hrafnskald]

@@alb0zfinest Permanent damage? LOL! That's literally impossible. The existence of reality tv, or superhero films, does not prevent you from enjoying other genres, nor does it keep film makers or writers from being able to create content that is different. We live in a time when the tools to write, publish, and create films are available to more people than ever before. If you don't like a genre, you should create something different.

[@alb0zfinest]

@@Hrafnskald I don't mean to be rude but how is it you don't understand something so simple? Of course the mass production of superhero movies and reality tv directly impacts other genres lol. Budgets in hollywood are not unlimited, the more superhero movies created the less of other kind of big budget projects are made. The same is true of mass publishing, the more cringe "romantic," fantasy and YA fantasy is published the less high fantasy is published. Because naturally the amount of projects a mass publisher will pick up is limited. This produces a cyclical process where because there is more availability that's also what people are more likely to pick up. This in turn doesn't just mean less high fantasy is published, it also dissuades other authors who want to write high fantasy not to do so because they likely won't get published. They can go the self publishing route but most of the time that's a failure. And when it does succeed it's from people who already have some kind of social media following (with some exceptions).

[@Hrafnskald]

@@alb0zfinest I understand how economics works. And as I said, I worked for years in a bookstore, and witnessed how many people became fans of Fantasy, including the Romantic Fantasy you insult, because of Tolkien. And I also witnessed how many people became fans of Epic Fantasy who started with Romantic Fantasy. The ties between Fantasy and Romance go back centuries. The first clear Fantasy, and the direct inspiration for Tolkien, were the courtly Romantic tales sponsored by Eleanor of Aquitane and other medieval lords. Likewise, the Germanic and Norse sagas, and the Anglo Saxon tales, were filled with Romance as a key element. Try telling the Wagnerian cycle without referring to romance and you'll come up empty. Fantasy has influenced Romance, and Romance Fantasy since these genres began. The existence of one does not harm or diminsh the other.

[@TheYellowcrush]

Personally, I'm getting the impression that traditional publishers are essentially "outsourcing" acquisition and financing work via indie publishing. By that, I mean they're letting the authors foot the bill of starting up: let the author pay for an editor, a cover and interior designer, marketing, etc. See how many copies they sell both via ebook and print-on-demand so the publisher knows how to structure a sales strategy for that book. THEN and ONLY then, once the book is successful and the publishers feel like they're missing out on making money, do they approach an author with a deal to rebrand and republish the already successful book with an in-built audience/marketing, that way the money is a sure deal. Tor does this a lot, as one example.

[@argentrabe7045]

Unfortunately, the way of presenting this information might not come across the way you hope. This does seem to be exculsionary to fanro readers and make them seem like a different reader, which can have a negative impact on the community. I do think there is a current trend for cozy and fanro, which could lead to epic taking a backseat for now but you did point out indie fantasy which in general does need more attention and should be uplifted versus pitying readers against each other. We are all fantasy readers who read for entertainment and should always celebrate diversity, which these different voices bring in particular poc, women, and lgbt authors.

[@LucasSouza]

Yeah, 'cause minorities can't write good books, right? 🫠

[@saraferguson1156]

At this point I’m just resigned to rereading Harry Potter, LoTR and the available GoT books every few years until the day that something worthwhile comes along. Nothing else hits like they do. HP is my comfort series when I feel like sh*t because it takes me back to a simpler time when I felt like I had everything in my life ahead of me and I felt like I knew what I was doing.

[@RosLanta]

I found it ironic that you chose LOTR for the thumbnail of this video. LOTR is a superb example of how fantasy can be both epic in scope and high quality while also being short - the three (or six) books together are only a little over 1,000 pages (excluding appendices). Shorter does not mean worse and can sometimes mean better, especially when it trims down unessential parts and tightens the story. I'm not sure I'm convinced by the argument that less debut epic fantasy is available. Are there statistics on this? There still seem to me to be plenty in the new releases section of my bookshop - more diversity and different subgenres and styles, but still epic in scope and still fantasy. Also, as a reader of traditional fantasy, cosy fantasy AND romantasy, I also suggest I read for exactly the same reason you do - enjoyment.

[@SoundFuryBookReviews]

I think you nailed the cost point on the head. With the rise in true competition from self-publishing, Romantasy as a trend, the ease (it seems) of Romantasy authors using TikTok to sell books vs other sub-genres of fantasy(meaning, the publishing houses can save money on marketing by leaning on that aspect of an author), and the cost of producing a book, epic fantasy just isn't worth it at a moment to invest in. Tied to this, I think epic fantasy is just off-trend right now and might well come back in 5-10 years. All sub-genres come and go in popularity, but one of the reasons for this one at the moment is perhaps because there is a notion/stereotype/assumption about epic fantasy that it is part of an old white boys' club (look at the examples you provided - Robin Hobb was the only woman author) so a lot of readers looking for diversity in their books might see the current epic fantasy books out there and think, "oh, that's just going to be some stuffy, long-winded thing with a bunch of dudes waving their swords around". To be clear, I, myself, do not have that perception, but I have talked to other readers, some just entering fantasy readership, who do. Most of them gravitate towards Romantasy not because they necessarily want the romance, but because they know they'll get the character stories they are looking for. (Personally, I have no interest in Fourth Wing (mainly because I don't like YA, and I heard it's kind of trash LOL).

[@krow5099]

But sorry to tell you Epic Fantasy is an old white boys club. Personally, I’m glad it’s dying let’s have some new fantasy come in just as well speculative fiction is popular as well and meets the fans taste who are fantasy fans

[@RealSmoothie]

I'm commenting midway through the video, so you might cover some of what I'm about to say. As an aspiring author who grew up on LOTR, ASOIAF, and The Witcher, I found Romantasy to be quite a shock. I even took a step back from writing a romantasy book and decided to make it more of a paranormal romance because I grew up reading these classics, and what the market offers today in this genre is so different. Yes, I wanted to create an epic world with adventure and a romantic subplot that is important to the story, but I wanted it to evoke the same feelings those classics did for me. After reading many Romantasy series and books in this 'new genre,' I've learned to appreciate it- even if instead of a dragon and an epic quest, we have sexy fae, sexy warriors, or sexy whatever. It's interesting because I feel like it caters more towards women and is usually written by women, as opposed to the classics that were predominantly written by men. It's a different experience, catering to a very different audience. The reason it's taking over the market is that women have become a significant audience who spend a lot of money, buy a lot of books, and read like never before (don't quote me on that). This demand drives publishing houses to seek more of these projects. My two cents as someone who enjoys both genres very much? Epic fantasy needs to claim its place on TikTok. This community is very KZbin-oriented, and content creators who generate buzz around books and shows are there. When I want to see theories about the new HOTD show, I go to KZbin, not TikTok. But TikTok has the power to influence the market.

[@deekshaashwin5652]

I think your frustration is a bit misplaced with romantasy here. The reason authors are expected to write with shorter word counts is because people's attention span has simply dwindled in recent times with more short form content. The book has to entice you immediately or they don't want to read it I think romantasy has arguably brought a lot more attention to fantasy books in general and you saying you don't want to be grouped with romantasy readers feels a bit like that's because of your personal beliefs about specifically smut and not because there is actually anything wrong with the books themselves. There are a lot of readers in the overall fantasy genre that have been introduced to it through romantasy I simply do not understand why you think romantasy is inherently worse when it is just a matter of personal preference. You wouldn't say that self-help/non-fiction books are worse than fiction purely because of your preference so I don't see why this genre doesn't get the same treatment from you I myself don't read any romantasy books, and very much enjoy my classic and epic fantasies but I have to disagree with your comments here

[@dree1801]

Romantasy is not inherently worse than epic fantasy and that is not what he said in the video. His problem and mine are the same. The romantasy that are getting the fame and popularity are BADLY written and those authors do not deserve the hype and money that they are getting, Fourth Wing for example. The writing is horrendous and the plot doesn't make sense. If you remove the romance from that book, all of the substance is lost, which means it's just romance in a fantasy setting. Furthermore, those books are recycled versions of the same tropes. Pretty sure he would have a different opinion if those books were actually well written books.

[@krow5099]

@@dree1801While I can agree that there books are horrid to read at the same time Romantasy is a response to Epic Fantasy which is something that’s barred women and POC folks for years. Also it doesn’t help that Epic Fantasy readers are snobbish as well.

[@dree1801]

@@krow5099 sorry but even i’m a woman and representation is no reason to write and encourage the creation of some bad books. why are there no good authors doing all that work then? most of the romantasy work you talk about having “representation” have maybe a token POC on the side and a borderline mysoginistic male lead whose only job is being hot. not to mention the constant objectification of men in books by rebecca yarros and saraj j. maas. Secondly, epic fantasy has a lot of upcoming black authors and established ones as well take NK Jemisin and Evan Winter for example. Thirdly, epic fantasy authors are better at representing oppression of a race, war, poverty and other serious societal problems than the romantasy authors you talk about. Fourthly, how is it a fault of other epic fantasy readers and authors that more black authors aren’t choosing the genre?

[@Scimitar55]

Great video that echoes all my thoughts. Most of the big five publishers lists of future books are dreadfully limited. Hopefully all the smaller companies will step into the gap.

[@JAlexGiguere-Author]

Really great video. Quite some time ago I decided to go the route of self publishing. There’s a few reasons, but one of them is I don’t want to depend on the ebbs and flows of what the market is looking for and what the publishing industry is looking for epic fantasy authors to cater to. It’s great that self publishing is so viable now so that authors can build up their readers how they want and write the subject material they are passionate about. Looking forward to more of these videos from you, thank you for the thorough look at the stage of epic fantasy.

[@kylec1590]

You’re saying it yourself in this video, the same people are not reading epic fantasy and romantasy. A new genre has become popular with a new and different batch of readers brought in by the massive influx of fantasy tv adaptations. Meanwhile, the most suggested series in fantasy are the Cosmere, wheel of time, first law, cradle, Malazan, to name a few, all of which are longer than five books collectively. The complaints for those series are almost always problems with how female characters and romance are written. Now that female authors are coming along and giving that audience what they desire it’s a problem for the rest of us? I don’t think so. It’s a newish genre getting its flash in the pan. Nobody is firing Sanderson or Abercrombie, y’all are gonna be ok. It sounds like the worst of what is happening is what is always happening and that is, the publishers suck and are prioritizing their profit and decreasing their risk. Thankfully the world is changing and there are more and more ways to publish now, writing a shorter initial book just seems to be the price traditional publishing is asking. If you don’t want to write a shorter book, write a long one anyways. If the quality of it can’t pierce their thick skulls, find a way to self publish or even just keep it on ebook, hell give it out for free like will wight does. Eventually the people will come, and if they don’t then they don’t. If you’re prioritizing a paycheck over your love for writing then this isn’t the gig for you. Authors are notoriously broke until they make it big. is it right? No, but they all knew that going into it and now that some other genre is gaining popularity they get to throw a fit like they’re being skipped over. Your genre still exists, none of your fans/potential fans were lost in the process, and if anything some were gained. Some tweets or dinner table talk from some authors low in popularity complaining about how nobody wants their books or somebody they knew once had a bad experience is frankly ridiculous and nothing new. The only difference now is they can point their fingers at women readers and women authors and say it’s not my money hungry publishers fault for being greedy, those darn females took all of my readers. If that really was the case then do better and your problems are gone. I am an epic fantasy reader, I read fourth wing with my wife, I cringed my way through the two short “romance” scenes(which ended with me getting well and truly laid), and you know what, as a whole, it wasn’t that bad. I’m still here to tell the tale and I haven’t thrown out wheel of time and replaced it with Sarah j mass in a horned up rage. There is one difference though, and that is my wife is more open to trying the books I like. On the whole it is a win for everyone involved. A new audience is cultivated, new authors are popping up everywhere, publishing essentially wherever they want with some slight guidelines if they want a traditional route, and the old men are doing what they do best and still complaining. Guess what boys, you’re not gonna live forever, new authors are here and ready to replace the hole you are going to leave and instead of being satisfied with that, knowing that books are going to continue on its… WAIT are those GIRLS?! Writing about what they complain we don’t do well?! Whattttt?!

[@leonhartdragomir8948]

paragraphs, man, please

[@LucasSouza]

Let's face it: all literature are falling down. Books with quality rarely get the attention they deserve. The majority best seller are just fast-profit garbage for TikTok idiots.

[@fatpaladin]

I ended up self-publishing my books simply because publishers were not interested in the seven book arc that I'm writing. I really appreciated this video - it validated a lot of what I've been through.

[@Hrafnskald]

Epic Fantasy is returning to it's roots. Homer's Iliad and Odyssee, Virgil's Aeneid, Dante's Divine Comedy, Chaucer's Cantebury Tales, the Wagner Cycle, Arthurian Legends: all of these and most of Shakespeare delved into the themes of love and romance as a core element. Fantasy authors have been writing about love since the genre began. To pretend that romance has suddenly invaded fantasy for the first time is to ignore centuries of shared history. If you don't like romance, that's fine. Read some of the many authors that don't include it. But dying? No. The genre is as strong as ever, and the ways it is growing are proof that it is a *living* genre.

[@pasoapasoconmervo6734]

Those book you metioned doesnt spin around a young girl having sexual thoughts about an ''Alex'' in the middle of a Dragon Quest, so theres is a differente between Classic Fantasy and Romantasy

[@Hrafnskald]

@@pasoapasoconmervo6734 Cantebury Tales is 99% people fantasizing about sex. They were on a pilgrimage, not a dragon quest, but the theme is the same. And the Wagner Cycle even has the dragon quest part.

[@MandiMoons]

Yessssss thank you for making this video!!

[@libraryofaviking]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@diogomarinho182]

What if traditional publishing is dying so they can handle a longer series. Cause most people is not talking about a loss of interest on the readers end rather they are talking about a loss of interest on the publishers end, industry etc. ?

[@celebenarinya]

Personally, as somebody who's brewing an epic fantasy of so many books I was realizing yesterday I may need to break book four into two books (making it a 6 book series) you give me so much hope. Thank you!

[@themaratonac]

I am ok with this, I will finally catch up with my fantasy TBR.

[@crippsverse]

Don't all genres go through changes? Epic Fantasy had a huge rise and it's just natural that people become bored with it. It now needs new writers with bold new takes to rebuild Epic Fantasy again.

[@SheWasOnlyEvie]

Using Brandon Sanderson’s books actually reinforces the shift in traditional publishers’ markets and contracts of limitation in word count and/or books. The publishers are simultaneously combatting the production costs as well as the frequently bloated (i.e. unnecessarily high) word count. The only reason Sanderson can continue to publish his doorstopper books is because he effectively has his own publishing house through Dragonsteel. I think Ken Liu’s Dandelion Dynasty might have been a better reference point to use: from my understanding, he was contracted for three books and the last book wound up being split into two due to length (which, in my opinion, was warranted for the story he was writing).

[@IndigoStat]

Winds of Winter will save us if it ever comes out

[@aaatt268]

I keep telling everyone, and nobody believes. The person who singlehandedly destroyed the fantasy genre is Sarah J Maas. It's in her wake that came books like Fourth Wing. Maas's crappy sexy colonizer fantasy won the Goodreads choice award for fantasy a couple times. That is when I lost all respect for Goodreads. They should have made a separate genre for these romantasy books way before that. They have done it now, but the damage is done. The problem isn't *female readers reading romance*. The problem is smut disguising as traditional adult fantasy and taking the space for itself and tricking epic fantasy readers like myself into thinking I'd get those elements from Maas's books when all I'll be bombarded with is, again, sexy colonizers.

[@rvt_h3d]

I think you could go back further and blame the popularity of Harry Potter and Twilight as a beginning to this sort of thing.

[@aaatt268]

@@rvt_h3d Atleast Harry Potter and Twilight weren't counted as adult fantasy. The first was children's or YA, the second was strictly YA. Both of which have separate categories on Goodreads. I'm taking myself as an example, I'd never mistake HP and Twilight to be something like WoT or Realm of The Elderlings even before reading them. At any rate, none of them were smut and both predate the topic of this video, the current situation with dying epic fantasy and rise of horny fantasy.

[@rvt_h3d]

@@aaatt268 These both had an impact of the direction of young female readers and led to stuff like this.

[@aaatt268]

@@rvt_h3d HP was accepted by both male and female readers and wasn't predominantly female-centric (the opposite I'd say). I kinda agree with Twilight. But again, nobody would mistake Twilight as an epic fantasy. It didn't take away the space from traditional epic adult fantasy. They were separated, and nobody would claim it to be a great fantasy literature, unlike people do with Maas's books (hence my mention of her books winning Goodreads fantasy award). The problem isn't *female readers reading romance* the way you seem to be thinking. The problem is smut disguising as traditional adult fantasy and taking the space for itself and tricking epic fantasy readers like myself into thinking I'd get those elements from Maas's books when all I'll be bombarded with, again, sexy colonizers.

[@quantus5875]

@@rvt_h3d Harry Potter actually got a ton of people into reading. Harry Potter was a good thing for every genre.

[@Kishdle]

Epic Fantasy is dying. But only with traditional publishers. That's where us new authors come in to create even better stories.

[@andrewhallam237]

On the other side of the coin you could say publishing houses are dying. If they won't publish then self publish or do a kickstarter.

[@ElijsDima]

Perhaps, as fantasy takes a step back (and pop-fantasy pivots into romance), sci-fi operas will return more to the forefront. Ruocchio and Tchaikovsky are perhaps the more prominent currently-active Sci-Fi Opera writers, but there is a lot more room for SF, as the previous "batch" of peak SF authors (I.M.Banks, A.Reynolds, P.F.Hamilton, J.Vandermeer et al) seem to be "done" at the moment, and the J.S.A.Corey duo are finished with their expanse series). I kinda also think that, as Sanderson is driving more and more into a space-fantasy (mistborn era 3, sunlit man), more readers and authors of F will pivot into SF too.

[@OrangeHand]

What traits does a fantasy novel need to qualify as epic?

[@quantus5875]

Sounds like it has to be long. 😂

[@astevenswrites]

Yes, shoutout to @PetrikLeo! But seriously, I've seen it from multiple people now. It is so sad that epic fantasy is on the decline. This is one of the big allures for indie publishing. There are way less restrictions on what CAN be published. What readers will read, however... Hoping that there are still lots of readers who are willing to pick up epic fantasy novels!

[@Canario_27]

Go to the classics. Sorrow memory and thorn, Lyonesse trilogy, Earthsea, cronicles of prydain, dragonlance, the dark elf. Just take a break and go back to a simpler time

[@libraryofaviking]

Currently reading Memory, Sorrow and Thorn and I am loving it!

[@quantus5875]

Agreed. Thumbs up for mentioning Jack Vance's Lyonesse Trilogy !! Yes, Dragonlance has over 30 books -- I think even a lot more than 30. Then you have Terry Brooks - Shannara has over 30 books, Anne MacAffrey ,Dragon Riders of Pern has over 20 books, you can even go back to Swords & Sorcery with Conan and Fahfrd and the Grey Mouser, and Planetary Fantasy with Edgar Rice Burroughs with John Carter, Carson of Venus, Pelucidar, etc. You can go on and on -- so much good stuff to read! And some of this stuff is even free in the public domain like almost all of Conan and Edgar Rice Burrough's stuff. I like a lot of the older stuff and I only read about 25 books a year (and also read other genres - as I find I get bored if I stick to one genre). I could easily just read pre-2000 fantasy and swords & sorcery books and never have a lack of anything to read. My recommendation if you favor NEW epic fantasy -- now might be a good time to experiment with some other genres -- you might be surprised at what you discover.

[@sailiealquadacil1284]

I remember hating having to write short stories as a child - I couldn't keep it brief. I need space for my words. A cap on the word count was awful. I just finished writing a 337.979 words long fanfic (that's not counting the three optional short stories that go with it). The first chapter alone has over 14.000 words. A word count as described in this video would kill me. I could never make that work. That being said, this story is an extreme example - normally, my stories have in between 200-300 pages, this one has over 550 - but it needed that space. I needed time to properly develop relationships and character arcs.

[@HeavyTopspin]

So to me, the real mindless thing about this is that the publishing companies seem to be stuck in the 1970s if they're concerned about the production costs of longer books, when they could easily shift to a more modern and technological model - Kindle release with hardcover printing only to come after a certain level of success. After all, there's no real difference in the cost to generate an EPUB or MOBI of a 200-page vs. an 800-page book. Yes, I know there's some purists who want to turn pages and have a heavy paper brick sitting on their chest or lap when they read, but I'm in my 50s and would much rather have my reading material in a nice light package - particularly if I'm going on vacation or an extended business trip and know I'm probably going to burn through multiple books!

[@chrissybooksandberries]

I’ve heard that some publishers choose authors who already have a following via fan fiction as a guarantee that they will be able to sell books. I think it’s got more to do with making money. By making fantasy(and all their subgenres) more consumable since some of those subgenres are easier to read. It is sad to see a decline in those epics though but if I’m being real I also know that I stay away from some episodes fantasies because I know I don’t have time for them.

[@darrellhon2868]

Aspiring epic fantasy writer here. The first draft of my story was 225k words. As a debut that's obscene in today's world. Due to publishing constraints I focused on writing a prequel of that story that stands at 75k words but that word count is rising steadily to dreaded traditional publishing caps and I will be faced with the prospect of breaking the book into parts, cutting a lot of material, or leaning hard into self publishing. It's rough out there for debut authors hoping to bring an epic to life.

[@MichaelFromTheAttic]

And what about low fantasy? What is the state of that?

[@Selenite11]

06:14, my advice to debut authors would definitely be to write standalones. First you need to practice before you become a master and write a series worthwhile reading. Debut books tend to not be author's best work.

[@NICKREADSFANTASY]

Easy solution. Dragonsteel and/or Wraithmark grow into powerhouse traditional/hybrid publishers to fill in the void. This is opportunity, not a problem. Can’t wait to see them take over bookstores :)

[@erikaeriksson9840]

I have always loved Fantasy (think Tolkien, Hobb, Martin, Abercrombie, Pratchett) and never liked Romance books. I want to know what sort of book I'm buying and not be surprised by smut, often acompanied by dull writing and characters without depth. I find it difficult to find new authors to read. The "hyped" books are often not for me and since I have to order everything, living in a rural area, I often don't realise this until I already bought the book. My local library don't stock books in English so that's not an option. Any Epic Fantasy recommendations for me, please? 😅

[@larryladeroute971]

I see there are changes but there has never been too many authors publishing the epic tomes at a time. You have always needed to breakthrough to get them published. The middle length novels may be getting more challenging but John Gwynne manages and we see self pub picking up the slack with Cahill and Chase. Back in the day after Weis and Hickman released their Dragonlance novels and Salvatore his Icewind Dale Trilogy we saw page limts on subsequent Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance novels. Very similar to limits of today...profit margins. Another thing we are seeing with media in general (Netflix) is limiting the length of series because new series generate more hype and more views...viewership (readership) declines after each release.

[@silviasmwl7019]

Every time you post a video, it's a thumbs up from me. You do inspire me to read more, by putting me into "the right reading mood" somehow, can't even grasp the reason why. Just wanna confess.... A romantasy reader here, BUT! - I do read EVERYTHING and anything, when it comes to books, I've read read the LOTR series when I was 9 y.o., re-read it afterwards again 2 times. :):) I can honestly say - without naming all the epic, or maybe less epic fantasy books individually, or series - I do enjoy reading all the "branching out" variations of fantasy. :)

[@libraryofaviking]

Glad you are enjoying the videos! Thank you and happy reading!

[@guruthosamarthruin4459]

Luckily, I only read 20-30-ish pages per day, and I still have more than 50 epic fantasy/sci-fantasy books to read. Maybe by the time I'm done with them, there will be a new wave.

[@hbookreviews]

I'm glad self publishing exists. I self published my epic fantasy and it was ~ 140k words. It wouldn't have been the same had I cut it down to 100k.

[@gianlucamarcheselli8427]

It may be true but in the last 40 years we had an incredible production in epic fantasy. Katherine kurtz, terry brooks, stephen donaldson, weis&hickman, salvatore, david gemmell, harry turtledove, melanie rawn, tad williams, guy gavriel kay, robert jordan, g.g.martin, steven erikson, rothfuss, scott lynch, sanderson, anthony ryan, john gwynne, peter brett, david eddings, dave duncan and many many more! There are thousands of wonderful books in epic fantasy, enough for a live of reading! So i will not cry if for some years we will have fewer epic fantasy books.

[@JohnAndrewMacDonald]

I feel the same way. Maybe this will allow some people time to read some of the classics instead of following the booktubers and the obligatory 10 authors/series that everyone talks about

[@alb0zfinest]

Ok but the 10 last years alone have shifted epic fantasy so drastically for the worse that I can only imagine what will happen in another 10 or 20 years.

[@JosephLayden]

Another problem might be that they kept signing these long tombs...but mortality and writer's block keep getting in the way of the most popular ones ever being finished...or they have o be finished by ghost writers.

[@kingatom904]

I have no doubt that one will appear right when we really need it, before another and another.

[@danic9304]

Epic fantasy falls in and out of fashion. It has fallen out of fashion before and then came back in.

[@Alexander-tu3iv]

There have been several multi book epic fantasy publishing deals made this year, some of them 6 figures. What they all have in common is that they contain non-European settings which has been a trend in fantasy for a few years now.

[@animalobsessed1]

I have to disagree with the idea that epic fantasy fans and romantacy fans are entirely separate groups of people. If that were the case, I wouldn't be seeing so many fans of epic fantasy series complaining "Oh, this series was so great, but I wish the author would give us more detailed smut scenes." Sounds to me like they want to have both in the same book.

[@psychosis8429]

That 100k word count limit is insane. I started writing my first book, a sci-fi/fantasy book I've wanted to write for years and I've written 7000+ words which amounts to 15 pages. 100k words seems so miniscule to even make a book I don't know how they would do that

[@-clyx-2907]

It depends where Fantasy is published. I heard that in Italy, the state of Fantasy is good. In France, some authors publish 5 or 7 books series. We have,a book on on Norse and Hindu mythology by Stefan Plateau (4 books/5), a book on Celtic Mythology (4/5) by Jaworski or a epic medieval (The 4th is out now and the author is under contract for 7 books) by Dewdney. In general, we saw a taste for Medieval Games/Fantasy in video games. So, maybe, Epic Fantasy can export through different medias.

[@element-alchemist8875]

I never think of epic fantasy as (must have high word count) but thought it was about a large world, multiple characters and multiple plots and subplots. One of the most popular comments I read from 1 star reviews is “This book is 800 pages and the author could’ve shaved off 400 pages and told a better story.” Another VERY popular comment is “bored” and I would think the page count had something to do with it. Lengthy info dumps, telling more than showing, long introspection, exposition heavy, lengthy dialogue heavy scenes that don’t move the plot forward etc. It almost feels like most other mediums (film, theater, music, video games) and other genres of books adhere to certain word count limitations but with epic fantasy, a book the size of the yellow pages is just fine. But then, do these books cost more to print? Do the readers pay the same amount as a shorter book? Wouldn’t publishing take a loss if those books don’t do well? If so, would movie studios scale back on $100mil+ films if they don’t meet sales expectations? Have readers become so accustomed to huge bibles of epic/high fantasy that scaling back on word count is unimaginable? Can authors shave off the bloat and still tell a concise yet epic story? 🤷‍♂️

[@rvt_h3d]

I would welcome some more short form books like from the 50s/60s. I don't think an idea or a world needs to go on for 10 books just so publishers can sell more.

[@stephennootens916]

That is sort of issue I have as someone who is trying to get into fantasy literature. Things move so slow on many of the books I have tried. One of the few in the last year or so was a stand alone Conan book by S M Stirling which I really enjoyed. I tried some of the original Conan stories and they were a lot of fun. Other than that the only adult fantasy series I came close to finishing was The Dark Tower.

[@BMB57]

I don't really think epic fantasy beyond 5+ books was ever a successful business venture in the first place. This, to me, is a non-issue. Self-pub is flourishing and Romance as a genre and subgenre has always been the bigger money maker. If you narrowed down to just fantasy trilogies, you would see many successful ones being published lately. So epic fantasy isn't dying, because it was never alive. (Stormlight and WoT are edge cases)

[@mandiechase3308]

Not me having a crisis realizing that my 7 book series will probably not be published at its current length...

[@namne11]

Great video. would love to hear your thoughts on the recent article that came out about the antitrust lawsuit that the US government had against the two huge publishing houses merging together. I think that will give you a much bigger insight into why what you it's all happening

[@libraryofaviking]

Oh sounds like something I might need to explore!

[@FuriousScribe]

I just finished posting a 225K epic fantasy book online, and while I certainly didn't mean for it to be that long, I don't know how I'd lop 100K off of it and still tell the story I wanted. Thank goodness long novels are alive and well in serialized fiction!

[@gizzardgizzard3583]

Epic fantasy is probably more popular now than it's ever been

[@DJOBrien]

This seems to pop up every few years and then there is a massive Epic Fantasy hit, and the publishers are all suddenly back looking for Epic Fantasy novels. Go figure... Great video. 👍👍

[@casper_z1259]

I don't know if the debut novel I've been working on for years qualifies as epic fantasy due to it taking place in a more industrialized world but it is projected at around 800 words with me naturally shaving it down when I take a break from writting it and edit what I have for better flow. I'm so close to finishing it this year if I keep going but I wouldn't be able to just cut away to those slim margins since i have an intricate hard power system with philosophical themes attached to the tail of it and the characters, with each chapter progressing the plot and setting up later stories I want to explore as a long series I have partially outlined. I just know it'll make it into your reviews at some point soon.

[@Hrafnskald]

Write the story you have in you to write, the way you feel it should be written. Writing that way resonates with readers, and creates an audience. Don't worry about which trend is up or down this year: great fiction creates popularity, it doesn't wait for a genre to already be popular.

[@Sandraugiga]

I feel like epic fantasy has been riding a high ever since the lord of the rings movies, but now that big shows like game of thrones are finished in a disappointedly way, and the many fails in bringing other big named epic fantasy on (film or tv) screen, interrest is likely to decline back to pre-LoTR times. I think publishing houses need to play it safe. Especially in these times. I don’t blame them. Most people get burned out of a series real quick, with so many other fantasy series to try, will drop out of following the epic series. And from the other side, writing an epic fantasy series, is like running a decade long marathon, with no guarantee you will retain your readers. Bless the indie publishing scene, because passion will find a way, but maybe they wont be getting out there through big named houses.

[@Thesenshin7]

Don't worry. wait till my series is out. said it here.

[@weslayubrust8126]

Even if only 10 readers read my work, that would make me happy even if it won't make me too much money.

[@embodyingmysticalmac]

5:22 as an epic fantasy lover who also loves romance you’d think that I’d be all over romantasy but alas, it’s very difficult to find romantasy that is written as well as my epic fantasy favs which is really disappointing. Imo, romantasy as a genre feels overpopulated by tell-don’t-show narratives, toxic relationships (that are often encouraged or excused by the text), cardboard cut-out characters, and smut that does nothing for plot/relationship development, among other issues that you just don’t find in well-written works. Love cozy fantasy but realize how challenging it is to write it well without over-relying on convenience for conflict resolution. Legends and Lattes was boring due to this while The Very Secret Society of Irregular Witches strikes a great balance of cozy while not lacking major conflicts that are obviously necessary for an interesting story. All that to say that epic fantasy had time to evolve and I think the new sub-genres need to go through that as well. Great vid. I feel your pain 😢

[@gregorius.dentang]

"I like the stars. It's the illusion of permanence, I think. I mean, they're always flaring up and caving in and going out. But from here, I can pretend...I can pretend that things last. I can pretend that lives last longer than moments. Gods come, and gods go. Mortals flicker and flash and fade. Worlds don't last; and stars and galaxies are transient, fleeting things that twinkle like fireflies and vanish into cold and dust. But I can pretend..." - Neil Gaiman

[@linmonPIE]

I was so excited to read Fourth Wing because I love dragons only to discover I couldn’t get 100 pages in because it seemed to be more about some bad guy vs. good guy love triangle ☹️

[@gnothiseauton626]

Romantasy did one important thing for traditional publishing: it brought a mass audience of young, female readers to fantasy. Young, female readers buy the most books, therefore when they start buying in a certain genre, it fundamentally changes that genre to suit their taste. It's not an inherently bad thing, but it is sad that it seems to leave no place for anything other than romantasy. The silver lining is that self-publishing is our friend.

[@avwillis5269]

Two counterexamples that come to mind, setting aside the Juggernaut that is Sanderson, is Christopher Ruoccio's Sun Eater series, and Larry Correia's Saga of the Forgotten warrior, (which tbf was originally supposed to be a trilogy, but then, si was the WOT.)