Licensing Lessons w/ Sora, Smash Brothers, Disney, and More (VL554)

[@HoegLaw]

Can there be a Kingdom Hearts without the Magic Kingdom? Fans point to yes...in Virtual Legality.

[@Andres-Acosta123]

Disney Japan said a few years ago, that they own the kingdom hearts original characters and the I.P

[@haunter64]

Do you think Nintendo, Disney and SQEX met during a DMCA convention?

[@Andres-Acosta123]

@@haunter64 I don't know

[@TrueZEAL89]

My theory is that Sora original origins was from gaming while Disney characters are not. Therefore keeping in staying true that Smash is only for videogame characters.

[@strife9878]

After the last game, there were hints that they could go into a new game without disney characters

[@Eichro]

All the C&Ds Nintendo sent over the years were just acts of Nintendo ninjas grinding for XP in order to level up enough to negotiate with Disney and get Sora in Smash

[@HoegLaw]

Ha!

[@ultramatum0]

Makes sense Also If you watch the trailer you can put it together with this short poem: Colors Weave Into a spire of flame Distance sparks into a past still unnamed Bear this torch into the cold of the night Search your soul and reawaken the undying light Sounds familiar doesn’t it?

[@CrimsonDrake13]

Disney was the secret boss and Nintendo had to go to level 99 to even have a chance at negotiating with them

[@LaughingGasFunny]

LMAO THIS WAS PERFECT

[@orangeslash1667]

@@HoegLaw Do you think the only reason why Disney would allow this is because of the Kingdom Hearts Trilogy coming to Switch?????

[@NonAtmospheric]

My God, it seems that Disney allowing the Mickey Mouse keychain for Sora's keyblade in Nintendo's biggest fighting game is truly going to be referenced for decades of copyright laws to come.

[@stripedrajang3571]

Yeah, and it's not only Nintendo's biggest fighting game, but THE biggest fighting game and top selling fighting game, in all of gaming!

[@julianmanjarres1998]

Under what context?

[@stripedrajang3571]

@@julianmanjarres1998, you're speaking to me, or Unstoppable Force? If it is the latter, you'll have to ask him/her, but if it's me, what do you mean by context?

[@NonAtmospheric]

@@stripedrajang3571 I think Climbers Of Ice is referring to my "decades of copyrights laws to come" claim. I'll happily oblige to elaborate that without a doubt in my mind there will be future licensing conflicts but I can't quite pinpoint which companies will be involved.

[@NonAtmospheric]

Disney is at the forefront of everything copyright related so they're the clear front-runner candidate to another inevitable controversy in order to protect their IPs

[@Arjay404]

As to who kept Disney characters out of Smash, I could honestly see it being both. So Disney Obviously didn't want their IP characters to be in a fighting game, I don't think that's difficult to imagine. So they had an agreement that their character can not appear as a 3d model in the game. But then from a game design perceptive Sakurai made the decision that if the Disney characters models wouldn't be allowed in the game then there is no point in keeping the characters in the game in any form and removing them from the game also helps to keep his vision of the game as a games celebration. So in way, Disney being so protective of their IP made the decision easy for Sakurai to remove non game references. Also about they keychain, I actually think Disney could have actually pushed for that and for that to be so prominent. Showing THE Mickey logo so prominently isn't something that just happens. So I think Disney could have pushed for it to be so in your face as a way to remind people that "We own this". Let's be honest, Sora isn't exactly that well known outside of gaming, the people that are mostly into Disney for Mickey and princesses and things like that, especially the parents likely don't even know that Sora exists. So having Sora show up in smash doesn't affect Disney proper at all and the only people that are really going to see that Disney connection with Sora are people that already know about it, so using it as a opportunity for a little bit of advertisement doesn't do them any harm.

[@HoegLaw]

Nice comment! Interesting thoughts!

[@BigBossBernie]

Agreed, as for the key chain Sakurai could've designed a different one or used the crown symbol. Isee that as D marking their territory.

[@Carahan]

>>>>>Let's be honest, Sora isn't exactly that well known outside of gaming, the people that are mostly into Disney for Mickey and princesses and things like that, especially the parents likely don't even know that Sora exists. Especially if the agreement with SquareEnix names SquareEnix as the sole entity allowed to use Kingdom Hearts IP because we haven't seen anything except from SquareEnix with Kingdom Hearts IP up until now. In that case, other than the licensing department of Disney, there might not be anyone at the C-suite of Disney who is even aware of this IP in the first place.

[@paperluigi6132]

@@BigBossBernie I always thought that if Sora was ever gonna be in Smash, they'd change the Mickey logo to the crown. Seeing the Mickey logo in the trailer shocked me hard for two reasons: the first being obvious, and the second that they didn't change the logo.

[@TopTwom]

It wasn't "Kingdom Hearts" as an entity that made it to Smash. It was Sora. Sora is not Donald and Goofy. I don't know why people expected anyone else to show up. I also imagine Disney would have been totally okay with their characters in a fighting game as they are clearly 100% okay with them appearing in other places like Fortnite and Fall Guys. They also seem okay with Mickey Mouse beating the hell out of anime villains in the KH series itself, so where has this idea come from that Disney are too precious and would not want their characters in Smash? It just seems like people assume a lot about how Disney actually do business and just go with, "big scary corporation are evil"

[@TheCanipaEffect]

One point about that forum comment regarding whether Disney can use Sora without Square Enix's consent. That was actually mis-transcribed. In the original video, he states that it's something Disney does, not something they specifically have to do. Disney have used Sora in the past for a mobile game outside of Square Enix (with its own non-canon lore) and a rather freakish Disneyland costume. I think that a lot of the people at Disney today grew up with Kingdom Hearts and now have more respect for its creators. (In fact, it's been inferred that it was KH fans internally at Disney that made sure Sora got into Smash.)

[@HoegLaw]

It certainly could be a process done out of simple comity for a long term business partner. Thanks for the comment!

[@darthsoulkiller2377]

Yes this is true! I have been trying to clear this up in other threads. It’s done out of respect for a professional relationship since Square Enix also develops their Marvel games. Disney doesn’t want to destroy their healthy partnership, so they do it out of courtesy. Great post!

[@tristanbowles7258]

That reminds me that Sora was actually in Disney emoji blitz. My mom showed me that since she plays it

[@wubbers662]

@@HoegLaw Hey I have a question So there is a show but it is extremely complicated It is called Wow Wow Wubbzy and Nick aired it but Starz owned it, but then Paramount came into a bigger picture and then Starz was bought by Liongate because Starz went bankrupt but Starz seems to still exist but the show isn't on Paramount Plus, Liongate channel thing, Starz plus or Noggin Who owns it

[@Underthestreetlightz]

So you’re saying that the child got its toy back because they did chores around the Disney house? Makes sense.

[@ChibiQilin]

I guess when it comes to copyright, Kingdom Hearts isn't as Simple and Clean as I thought.

[@HoegLaw]

I'm going to need Sanctuary from a pun like that one.

[@xingesealcmst]

​@@HoegLaw Were you thinking, "time to Face My Fears?"

[@HaosOnline]

@@xingesealcmst Dont Think Twice and you'll be fine

[@Kiteshade]

Y’all…………Y’all put a smile on my face

[@TylerChou059]

Square Enix is The Corrupted company that they are

[@Twewy13]

Really cool analysis, but I want to point out a few things: The stained glass window was not made for smash. The one with Donald and Goofy replaced with the boat and fruit is from a limited edition coaster given out at the Square Enix café for the 15th anniversary. So I can very well see SqEnix saying "Hey we have these de-Disneyfied artworks already, if you use them we can save a lot of headaches". Two, I'd point out that while the theme songs are iconic, they aren't really battle music. They're great but I think they would become grating if you had to listen to them on repeat. And Simple and Clean was used for the announcement trailer, so they at least licensed it for that.

[@HoegLaw]

Greet comment! Thanks for the additional context!

[@creepers530]

Where is this announcement trailer? That would be awesome to see but I haven't found any from Nintendo with Simple and Clean

[@PolarPhantom]

@@creepers530 I believe they mean the Orchestral Version of Simple and Clean, often used as KH's theme song.

[@PolarPhantom]

Yeah, with how the Vocal Theme Songs aren't really "Battle Themes" Sakurai and co probably just didn't think it was worth the hassle of licensing.

[@zazor701]

I'm pretty sure you're confusing Simple and Clean with Dearly Beloved. They used Dearly Beloved's orchestral version when Sora showed up. They just happen to sound pretty similar.

[@MrSpiderspider12]

I know i may strech this theory But i think Mario hesitating and grabbing that fireball and when finally grabbed you heard a searing sound was the symbolic way of how much work was put into realizing SORA IN SMASH ULTIMATE

[@julianmanjarres1998]

I think the little flame represents the tiny chance that there was for sora making it in, Mario reaching out for the fire symbolizes Sakurai nevertheless going for it and making that slither of hope turn into reality.

[@MrSpiderspider12]

@@julianmanjarres1998 yes but you can also see like i said, a hesitation of taking the task and the painfully burning sound when Mario grabbed the fireball representing the ordeal and after was throwed the first thing you see from the keyblade IS THE MICKEY SYMBOL Representing DISNEY finally accepting

[@brandonwilliams6119]

Also the second Mario steps off his trophy you can kind of see and realize the Kingdom Hearts particle effects when he steps off.

[@ScenicFights]

Fantastic breakdown on copyright and trademark. I spent all day yesterday trying to find out who owned Sora and it's nice to have everything consolidated into this neat video.

[@darthsoulkiller2377]

There is actually some misinformation in this video. SE does not own or have any rights to Kingdom Hearts, Sora or it’s other characters & worlds. It’s all owned by Disney & SE has no veto power as claimed in this video. I’m compiling some info that proves this. Disney Enterprises, Inc. is listed by the Copyright Office as the claimants on every game, book, novel, merchandise, etc. Nomura has even stated in earlier interviews that Sora is 100% a Disney character. Disney reaches out to SE due to respecting their professional relationship & not wanting to burn bridges as SE also develops 2 different Marvel games.

[@pixelatedink955]

@Weirdy Twisters the way youre talking makes *you* sound like a troll.

Except he forgot 1 thing . Sora is based on Sion Barzhad from the ps2 the bouncer . Which came out 2 years prior ro kh . Just younger and uses Mickey's color pallet . Legally speaking Disney can not own Sora without infringing on SE the bouncer. The only real way disney would have any say regarding ssbu is the music .

[@julianx2rl]

@ - The fuck? That doesn't make sense! Inspiration doesn't translate to ownership otherwise Nintendo would own every 2D platformer ever because "they're based on Super Mario Bros."

[@4zehorde]

I'm kind of glad this dlc minimizes the Disney influence tbh

[@_Just_Another_Guy]

@link4566 How is this cope? It's not like we'll ever know the true answer because we'll never see the actual contract between Disney, Square Enix, and Nintendo.

[@pmpmpika]

This is a must All Smash fighter are game base character BGM Stage spirits all must game-based This result is clean and nice

[@Nekotaku_TV]

What do you mean? Nothing Disney can be in the game that isn't from a game... simple logic.

[@snickersnacker4502]

The farther we keep 'Finny Fun' from appearing in new games, the better. (Honestly, I am sad to not see some of the battle themes, but I can't complain with the songs we got. 9 is still more then Cloud got at launch: Copyrights for all those songs aside.)

[@chrisofstars]

@link4566 you learned a word and want to use it lol? 😅

[@KBroly]

I think Sora is that on-the-line character of how far the series can go in terms of how characters can appear in Smash Bros. It was either going to be 'yes, Donald and Goofy show up' and break the rule or 'no, they don't' and it's still valid for the next game, if there is one.

[@mjm3091]

The issue with Donald and Goofy is that they don't originate from games. All Smash Bros characters follow that rule, or in case of Mr. Game & Watch and ROB they are the games themselves.

[@yderga8707]

That's what makes sora the best final character. Hes the most elusive, and the most voted on. Hes living proof that anything is possible.

[@Frisko555]

@@mjm3091 Lucario debuted in Pokémon: Lucario and the Mystery of Mew before appearing in any games. Thus, it's an anime character and not a video game character.

[@mjm3091]

@@Frisko555 four months before its first games and only, if you consider original Japanese cinema release. It was already made and designed though. So for me it doesn't break the rule, especially as Pokemon as entity started with games. It was made for games, where Donald and Goofy or someone like Goku were not originally meant to be involved with games.

[@zjzr08]

@@Frisko555 The movies are practically ads for the games so are promotions for the product but are products themselves.

[@gmanz5]

Keeping mainly focused on Sora is honestly the best way to keep this as “Simple and Clean” as possible

[@ryanwall5760]

I’m guessing the Disney Elements not being present was to preserve Smash as a celebration of games. The Mouse logo on the keychain is simply there to be true to the character

[@timothydarden6133]

Considering Sakurai's stance on the idea of Goku and other non-game characters in Smash, that's more than likely the case.

[@XaraFang]

If you can view it this way, I see his base design/timeless river design as a nod to mickey obviously, thats what they are based on, but you can possibly see valor form and wisdom form as a way of incorporating Donald and Goofy. You need Goofy to transform into Valor Form, and you need Donald on your team to transform into Wisdom form. I know thats a little bit of a stretch but if you think about it that way, Donald and Goofy are in the game in spirit.

[@EskChan19]

I don't really think it's that much of a stretch, i think that's very much it. At least for Valor and Wisdom form. Timeless RIver i see more as an homage to history itself. Smash is pretty old at this point,and it has gotten characters from games from all epochs of time, even classics like Banjo and relics like Terry, so i think his Timeless River is more ment as a celebration of the history behind it all than expressly Micky.

[@XaraFang]

@@EskChan19 Well said 👏

[@Ikcatcher]

I saw a joke tweet about the Mickey Mouse keychain costing 400,000 USD just for a 12 second appearance and I was willing to believe that was real

[@KantiDono]

_Heavy Weapons Guy voice_ "It costs four hundred thousand dollars to show this mouse... for three seconds."

[@snickersnacker4502]

Ah, so that was a fake one >.< Welp, there are worse ways to find out.

[@Jaxv3r]

Glad that Valor and Wisdom form got included, since you need Donald or Goofy to get those forms.

[@zadock6370]

When I was originally imagining Sora in smash, I was thinking Sora's moveset was going to utilize some of these forms as abilities. Once I got a closer look at his moveset, I realized he is going to be a very annoying character to play against. So I am going to have a lot of fun with him.

[@Youngblaise2]

Now all we need is a Kingdom Hearts Disney Plus animated show.

[@current9300]

Disney was actually planning an animated Kingdom Hearts show long ago, but they cancelled the it before airing because it was going to be vastly different from the story of the games, and Disney was worried that the ensuing fan confusion would be damaging for the brand since new KH games were still coming out. Now that the main story of the saga is more or less finished in the games, it could be appropriate time to revive the idea though.

[@flygonkerel781]

YESSSSSSSSS

[@jac_238]

There’s already one in development

[@AndrewDeng]

@@current9300 But the main story of the saga is not finished. We've got a whole nother saga coming starting from the mobile games lol

[@djpyroteknikz135]

@Youngblaise2 - That has been announced back in May 2020; as of October 2021, no further info on its status has been released to the general public.

[@lexybaginsky]

The things I learn here! Licensing is such an interesting field, thanks Hoeg for explaining it so well

[@cydranzer6027]

I'm actually more inclined to believe this was Sakurai's doing for two reasons: 1) the only confirmed rule in Smash is that all characters must originate from a video game and 2) the licensing fees for using any likeness for donald and goofy must be through the rough. Certainly "2" is likely the real reason given the cost of the character but "1" gives a ton of cover for it and, for me, how I cope with them not even being part of his final smash. edit: By Sakurai I mean Sora Ltd and Nintendo.

[@HoegLaw]

Totally fair. I think that's a valid reading.

[@IONATVS]

I partially disagree with (1). The only rule is that Sakurai doesn’t want any playable CHARACTERS or FRANCHISEs that primarily come from outside of gaming, but I don’t think that it’s quite that hard & fast of a rule for the less prominent content that comes along with them. I don’t think he’d object to a cameo in the Final Smash or a background image in the stage on principle, especially given his connections to those disney characters are such a core part of Sora’s character. Kingdom Hearts is as much of a crossover as Smash, and I think Sakurai would be happy to give KH fans what they want as long as the FOCUS remained on the celebration of videogaming. Thus I see it as more likely that either Disney had a red line or a price next to their dotted line that was too high for Nintendo. Ofc since he’s the first character in Smash with such FUNDAMENTAL ties to non-gaming media, we have no counterexamples to work off, and thus we’ll probably never know for certain.

[@brandonwilliams6119]

Sakurai literally left the mark of his company name in Smash if you really think about it.

[@user-vb9lw5bs7e]

Did Dracula originate in Video Games?

[@IONATVS]

@@user-vb9lw5bs7e No, but Castlevania's version of him isn't Brahm Stokers' even if Castlevania lore is "semi-compatible," so is, for all intents and purposes, a video-game original character. Just as Hellsing's Dracula is essentially an Anime original character. And as a public domain character from a book over a century old, even if you do count them all as the same character he's honestly in the same realm of stock characterdom as any monster from folklore, at which point you have to start asking how "original" any character from fiction is. Thus I don't think he's good evidence against Sakurai's stated rule against characters originating in other media even if you do think the "characters" part of that statement applies to bosses, spirits, assist trophies, and background elements and not just, well, playable characters.

[@ShadowOfNexxus]

If you look at the Smash Ultimate Japanese site you can see under the copyright for Sora it's only Disney. Square isn't even mentioned.

[@HoegLaw]

Nomura at minimum definitely had review rights. I quote today's tweet from him directly in the video. Disney can own something and still have licensed out aspects of it so its own use is restricted. For the record, I agree that Disney appears to own Kingdom Hearts (and Sora) on the whole.

[@Sandromatic]

@@HoegLaw yeah, they made their own KH game in the past without consulting with square whatsoever. It's a game for the v-cast mobile phones, and it only has Sora and the Disney characters.

[@dantevega2297]

@@HoegLaw Does Japanese copyright law include moral rights for the author? I mean apart from any contractual rights Nomura may have regarding Kingdom Hearts.

[@chinclucker]

@@dantevega2297 I remember reading in some articles that even though Disney owns Sora and the other original characters, they and SE always work with Nomura when it comes to how to use those characters. So most likely Nomura had a big hand in how Kingdom Hearts was represented in the game.

[@kuricosmos]

@@HoegLaw To further clarify your suspicions, Disney does go through Nomura just as he goes through them. It's a collaborative effort, with lots of respect for Nomura for making these works for Disney. They basically treat him like they do their other producers who make stuff for them. In that way, Disney's not so evil :P

[@Powerman293]

On the music side, while the absence of Utada Hikaru's music is a big loss, it's only in big moments in the game and the opening/ending sequences. For 95% of the rest of the game, you're hearing Yoko Shimmoura's music who has been composing for Smash as well. So it's actually not THAT bad a tradeoff.

[@punmasterG]

Neat, I didn’t know he did that I was just a little disappointed that utada didn’t have at least one song in here but the way you put makes it good

[@Zero-rq9ti]

@@punmasterG Yoko is a woman.

[@kleberson777]

FYI. Utada Hikaru Japanese version song titled "HIKARI", already exist even before Kingdom Heart 1 released. It got remix and rerelease in English version with title Simple and Clean for Kingdom Heart. (that's also one of the reason why I played Kingdom heart 1 back then). Same thing can be said with Sanctuary from KH 2 song. The original Japanese version titled Passion released first. Both Disney and Square Enix doesn't have anything to do with Utada Hikaru song, because it's licensed under music label. Bringing that song in would be even more legal nightmare for Nintendo/Sakurai LOL

[@EskChan19]

The thing is that Sakurai did say when they announced Steve that they use music that fits a fighting theme. That's why for Minecraft they mainly used music from Dungeons and not anything from Minecraft itself, because it's a chill game with chill music, not what you'd expect in a battle. Songs like SImple and Clean, Sanctuary and Face my Fears have the same issue. They're great songs, absolutely, but they're slow, chill songs ment to get you emotional, not into a fighting-mood. So they wouldn't have made much sense in Smash, apart from maybe adding it to the menu music selection, but definitely not the stage selection. That's probably why they used the swing version for the Melody of Memory bonus. It's faster and less calming, so it fits a fighting game better.

[@kevin13cabello]

@@EskChan19 He's kinda contradicting himself though bc there are some tracks used in stages that aren't battle themes. Like the Animal Crossing music, Picman music, and that "Lost in Thoughts all Along song" (quick examples I could think of).

[@Kevo1492]

I'll give an example, there is a mobile game called Final fantasy brave exivus (made by sqaure enix). When they put Sora in the game, sora has an Disney tm next to his character profile.

[@HoegLaw]

Yup. Certainly seems that Disney owns Sora, but use is subject to certain Square Enix approvals as well. Clearly, however they view Sora as different from their more core properties.

[@mochhhhee]

@@HoegLaw they're divorced parents sharing custody

[@klaibornelorenzo6397]

@@mochhhhee ahhh that makes sense.

[@CodeXCDM]

FF Record Keeper did as well. © Disney. Everywhere. To the point that folks mocked it on the FFRK subreddit. Only the Square designs were allowed. Characters can't even get their gear outside the banners that ran years ago.

[@Kevo1492]

@@CodeXCDM same thing happened on the ffbe boards

[@omgray]

This video is fascinating to me and I’ll tell you why. It’s not the content - the content is great. I just finished watching the entire video. It’s the fact that many of us who grew up playing video games are adults now, and we’ve all arrived at different places but still love video games. The business/law side of gaming is something I never thought I’d be interested in yet here I am watching this video. It was super interesting learning about the hoops people have to go through to protect and utilize the IP of creatives and developers. We’ve seen here on KZbin this trend of “musician reacts to X video game song” or “literature major reacts to this character arc “ or even “game developer reacts to this game announcement.” It’s just cool that after careers, after marriage, after kids, after growing up, we all still come home to talk about and play video games.

[@UnknownSpooky]

On the topic of the alternate skins, it's worth noting that the presence of the Valor and Wisdom form alts acts as an indirect reference to Goofy and Donald respectively, as Sora gains those forms by way of using their strengths specifically.

[@adgd]

Woah! Never thought I'd be featured on a Virtual Legality! Thanks Hoeg! BTW, the wife started a new save for Kingdom Hearts 3 today because of Smash 🤣🤣🤣

[@HoegLaw]

That's awesome! Well, I loved what you had to say. Positivity!

[@punmasterG]

Imma be honest, kh3 kinda sucked the story was great but I hated the gameplay

[@dexterdextrow7248]

So basically they allowed use of Kingdom Hearts original characters. if that is the case then that pretty much makes sense and isn't particularly surprising as far as I'm concerned.

[@RobAryeeArc]

"I've been having these weird thoughts lately. Like is any of this real or not?" L&R

[@kennymichaelalanya7134]

We are in the Matrix 😳

[@JustJulyo]

I hope we get a documentary about how characters were made and selected. Not enough credit is given for the people behind the scenes to make dreams posible

[@galren208]

Both sides have their reasons to exclude further Disney properties. Some speculation here: I think it’s up to Sakurai to ask for permission to use the properties, then Disney has to approve it. Sakurai could choose not to use them as well. I can’t decide on who made the rejection. On another note, my reaction to the reveal was to sing a few bars of the Simple and Clean chorus. The reveal felt equally shocking and elating.

[@jgodden8022]

'I think it’s up to Sakurai to ask for permission to use the properties, then Disney has to approve it.' That's not really speculation, that's just how licensing works in a situation like this. Unless Disney were looking for a developer to make a game for one of their IP, the potential licensee is always going to be seeking permission from the licensor, and paying for it (even when a developer has been sought out and hired as the licensee they still need to seek permission for all manner of creative decisions).

[@Marinealver]

Music Rights in Japan is vastly different than those in the United States.

[@neosquid9609]

I'm with Eduardo on Twitter; Disney definitely would've allowed Donald and Goofy on the windows, but Sakurai didn't want it.

[@lamontsanders3907]

I agree.

[@dth99times]

I personally believe that neither Sakura nor Nomura would've wanted that.

[@neosquid9609]

@@dth99times Maybe Nomura would've but Sakurai doesn't want stuff that didn't originate from games in Smash.

[@lovelywillow90]

The heart stations without Disney characters already existed with Square. So it is still likely that Disney said no, but they didn't make anything new to get rid of them. They just used assets without them.

[@SuperSmashDolls]

>tfw the copyright lawyer makes a Kingdom Hearts joke that *actually lands* Actually, wait, no. I take that back. Kingdom Hearts lore is about as complicated as an actual Disney licensing agreement.

[@iantaakalla8180]

Kingdom Hearts definitions 1. A heart, colloquially known as a soul, is a property that almost anything can have. It is defined as a will to live and represented as a sphere of light. Living beings (defined as humans, Nobodies spawning from humans, animals - anthropomorphic or otherwise), robotic constructs that appear humanoid, and even places themselves are eligible to possess hearts. If a person is empathetic enough, they too can contain other souls and gain their memories and skills and personality. A soul can also be possessed by another soul. 2. A mind is defined as the literal brain of someone but also as a person’s thoughts. Only living beings can have minds. 3. A body is literally the vessel of a person’s mind and soul. A body can persist without a mind and a soul, but if the soul and body are defeated at the same time, you are permanently dead. Even then, a person may a) chase the Heartless version of the Grim Reaper and restore their souls b) wish to keep holding on: this can restore a living being’s form and soul in the Dream Station. 4. A Heartless is a creature that spawns out of a soul lacking a body. They are formed out of the negative thoughts, emotions, and actions a person do. 5. A Nobody is a creature that spawns out of a body lacking a soul. They are always human. While Nobodies are commonly thought to have no souls, they in fact also have souls, yet very small if they do not interact with others and become friends with others. 6. Darkness is defined as a power that is associated with corruption of the soul. The powers darkness can do include, but are not limited to, corrupting other’s hearts, summoning a guardian whose body you stole, merging with fortresses, summoning Heartless, and possibly the ability to time travel to where other versions of you exist so long as you don’t change the timeline. (The timeline is defined as a linear sequence of events that is known to be within the universe: changing the universe or the sequence of events creates a new timeline.) 6. Nothingness is a power associated with humanoid Nobodies. Their power comes from the void - the fact they shouldn’t have existed in the first place. Humanoid Nobodies can have the powers of, but are not limited to, summoning lesser Nobodies vaguely associated with the way you fight, merging with battle mechs and/or fortresses, throwing buildings around, summoning swords of darkness, stopping time, and elemental powers like lightning and wind. 7. Memories are associated with the mind, but they can be transferred to any paperbound medium like a journal or digital medium like a USB stick or smartphone. These recorded memories are called data. However, data can be corrupted by bugs, Heartless, or Nobodies. a) Memories themselves are a physical link of friendship between people and therefore also represent fighting skills. Consequently, if you memories are lost, your friends can also lose power. If you forget someone, they will forget you too. b) While people in data have no souls by default, they too are eligible to gain a soul. 8. Replicas are bodies that exist as a clone of an existing body. Replicas can be inhabited by a different soul, but only one soul may inhabit a Replica.

[@christinaturner6548]

@@iantaakalla8180 O__o

[@zadock6370]

@@iantaakalla8180 replace darkness with bees and you will still know what is going on

[@_Chessa_]

@ but Tetsuya Nomura himself created that character design of Sion. You could say it’s Sora’s father.

@@_Chessa_ That would be cool if Sion was added in kh 4 or something an be like yoo Sora long time no see or something stupid. Than again Sora's mom sounds like Dexter's mom from Dexter's laboratory XD So it would be nice to see Sora meet his parents again. But, Nomura would never do that even when he recons so much cannon as it -.-

[@2muchjpop]

15:52 Disney doesn't like characters hitting each other.... **Remembers KH 1 and how Sora stabs himself** okay then

[@Marinealver]

We can't have a sword, so what do we use? A shield, a wand, and 🗝

[@Valic7690]

@Silentroom ohk, but explain sepiroth And cloud's apearances in kingdom hearts then? Just a thought, but those are clearly blades,right? Or some of the weapons from orginasation XIII.

[@EternityinOurHearts316]

I don't think Sora is an empty vessel. He is a unique character with a unique personality.

[@HoegLaw]

I have no problem with folks feeling differently than me on this. I’m glad you like him!

[@Jay-mx5ky]

@@HoegLaw I mean, it's just factual... The character has their own personality and behaviors and isn't something akin to a character like Link or an FF1 character.

[@zadock6370]

@@HoegLaw I think Sora's a hybrid. He probably isn't a full fledged original character like Sonic or Spongebob, but he isn't a completely empty vessel for the character like Link, Mario, and Frisk from Undertale. I see Sora as a hybrid. leaning towards the original character part while still having elements of an empty vessel.

[@EskChan19]

@@Jay-mx5ky He's not a empty vessel like Link, but he's definitely not a unique character with a unique personality. He's "Hero Boy #17383647387" with nothing to really set him apart from all the other "Power of Friendship" good guys we've had a million times before.

[@Jay-mx5ky]

@@EskChan19 generic and distinct characters are two things. You can argue he's generic, I won't hold you to that. But he's definitely not a husk avatar is all I'm saying.

[@shadowedge77]

One of the requirements Sakurai always adhered to were all characters in smash had to originate as a video game character and not from any other type of media. So pretty much every Disney character started off in film or TV. He wouldn't have included any of them anyway, even if Disney approved.

[@Marco_Onyxheart]

It is notable that the keychain of Sora's keyblade in Smash is the Mickey Mouse sigil, rather than the crown sigil. However, they did remove Donald and Goofy from Sora's Dive to the Heart. It seems that Disney is okay with their symbolism being used in Smash, but not older characters like Mickey, Donald, or Goofy.

[@chrisofstars]

It might have been Nintendo's decision not to include Donald and Goofy also tho?

[@robbiewalker2831]

@@chrisofstars Probably. Sora was fine without Donald and Goofy before. If you ask me, it felt forced.

[@ArceusDX]

It's half parts licensing costs, half parts Sakurai's rule of "characters that originate from video games only" That's the one stance Sakurai does not and will not budge from.

[@mr.awesome6011]

One that I hope he or whoever inherits Smash development from him never budges from. The day that rule is broken even in the slightest and fanboys never shut up about Goku, Shrek and Ironman is the day I resign from Smash. Solidarity!

[@_Chessa_]

So Miku still has a good chance!

[@imsmart799]

@@mr.awesome6011 I want smash bros to stay as video game crossover,

[@imsmart799]

@@mr.awesome6011 I hope they just port smash ultimate

[@BJGvideos]

R.O.B. seems to be a loophole since that character started as a video game accessory

[@HondoJarrus]

Excellent as always. I was intrigued but wondered about the 30 minute length - it was interesting and obviously well-reasoned throughout. Cheers!

[@yderga8707]

Sora doesn't need disney aspects to function as a character. In fact im glad theyre not involved considering Smash is a celebration of video games. Disney characters are movie based.

[@janieraltreche1989]

I want to see goofy or Donald Duck but then thinking again on in it ,it makes more sense that they don’t show up .they are movie based and don’t belong .

[@judgem0rt1s23]

@@janieraltreche1989 Hey, if nothing else, that's what fan art is for.

[@invisibleair2156]

@@janieraltreche1989 I wanna see them for his final smash, trinity attack fits kh1 sora as final smash

[@janieraltreche1989]

@@invisibleair2156 they showed the final smash and it’s not in there.that would be cool tho

[@theLoveRocketjr]

@@invisibleair2156 Just pretend that the only reason it’s just Sora, is because he is the only one that disappears in Kingdom Hearts III at the end.

[@sonictrain1]

I'm just assuming Sakurai did not want non video games originals in his smash universe. The "Celebration of Video Games"

[@GregCaldwellPlays]

Sora is a original video game character though

[@everretwavince1843]

He should keep that rule as that would open the floodgates to crazy picks like Shrek and Spongebob.

[@matthewjones6786]

Yeah… when you just pull randomly from whatever media is popular at the time, you become… whatever Fortnite is. XP

[@ItsYuhBoyyyy]

That's literally all there is to it. People are overthinking this😂

[@supersmashmaster43]

Funny how back in 2015 we thought Cloud seemed like an impossible addition and a miracle they convinced square enix to let them use their IP. We’ve come so far

[@lucalopez9604]

My pet theory on why the only direct reference to Disney is the Mickey keychain is that Sakurai found himself in a bind. He wants Smash to be a celebration of videogames and to only feature them, but Donald and Goofy are a huge part of KH - in both their relationship to Sora and to us the players (DOALD PLEASE HEAL) - but they didn't originate from a videogame. So the decision was taken to not include them. It saved hours of legal fights over getting the permission to use Donald and Goofy in a fighting game, it saved them the licensing fees for 2 of some of the most iconic Disney characters, and it kept Smash being only about videogames. Another thing is the outfits. You mention that they could have used the special costumes from certain worlds but I don't think they're iconic enough. My brother was really happy to see that the KH2 outfit was an option and I don't think many would have cared for the Nightmare Before Christmas Sora that much. (Although I'm forever sad Roxas and Ventus aren't an alt option) Another thing is the music. Simple and Clean and Sanctuary might be iconic, but they aren't fighting music. Although the licensing issues might have played a part in them not adding a remix of them especially made to be more fitting for a fighting game.

[@davidsarton976]

One fascinating copyright-related fact in regards to Kingdom Hearts, that gives you a little more evidence of how Disney views its ownership of Kingdom Hearts; Final Fantasy Record Keeper, a gacha-style game for cell phones, at one point had a few events featuring various Kingdom Hearts characters, which would become playable under certain conditions. On any page featuring the character outside of typical combat, Disney is listed as the copyright holder. Like with Smash, Final Fantasy Record Keeper did not reference anything Disney. Since it's a free cell phone game, it's unlikely they'd pay any extra money to add in Disney characters. That makes me also think that Nintendo didn't want to pay the extra money that would be required to convince Disney to let non-Kingdom Hearts Disney characters appear as cameos. Getting Sora in the game would cost $5.99 if you're buying Sora alone. Even if Mr. Sakurai could convince Disney to let loose some of the characters from its vault, there would likely need to be a hefty monetary agreement that simply wouldn't make adding Sora worth it.

[@relm1]

One interesting thing to note here, is that FFRK stopped receiving any Kingdom Hearts related material after those two brief collaberations. The things that were made available then (Sora, Riku, Roxas, Axel, and a few bosses, weapons, abilities, and costumes) have never reappeared in FFRK, have never been improved, are excluded from most in-game mechanics, and are now completely unobtainable or viewable in any other way. If you obtained them in-game at the time, then you'll still have them and can use them; otherwise, they are effectively treated like they don't even exist. This is highly unusual in FFRK. Normally, characters in particular can be obtained at any time. And by the way, by the nature of being a gacha game, it means that all of those characters and such are utterly useless now since they've never been improved or included in anything. We assume that this must be because Disney is being extremely particular with their copyrights. Basically everything in the game from Kingdom Hearts is marked ©️Disney.

[@DarkFrozenDepths]

It's the same with another game called Final Fantasy Brave Exvius... Not a single non-KH Disney character was there, only the KH originals. Sora, Riku, Kairi, and Dark Road Xehanort were there. Anyone else was just the KH versions of FF characters.

[@chrisofstars]

That's lame that Square was like "we wanna make a game with Disney characters" and Square was like "okay but we get your characters too."

[@mattmarshall8639]

The way it read I thought only KH3 WAS going to be cloud based. What a shame. Also I'm super happy for Sora as it just scratches my nostalgia itch to being 9 and playing it for the first time.

[@HoegLaw]

Agreed.

[@HALberdier17]

Nope all of them are cloud based. But I can see why now that I know they're all in one. If they were sold individually I can see them wanting to have them play on the Switch natively. All of them could run on Switch in some capacity. But if they sold it as a physical bundle it could be 3 to 4 cartridges. I'm only saying that because 1.5 HD and 2.5 HD were on two separate discs on PS3. On the PS4 they were on the same disc. Add 2.8 and KHIII that would be two more discs. I don't know how big the Switch cartridges are in relation to PS3 and PS4 discs that is why I'm thinking it would be on 3 or 4 cartridges. Cartridges are more expensive to make than Discs so it might not be cost effective to have four different cartridges in the same case.

[@jamesalexander5559]

@@HALberdier17 Space isn't an issue as there's ways around that for Switch games. KH1.5 is 20GB on PS3 with a lot of that being the 358/2 Days movie (This could be streamed) and the fact that all the cutscenes in Chain of Memories are prerendered instead of in-engine. I don't have my PS3 copy of 2.5 anymore but I'm sure it's similar if not smaller. If the game is digital only like the Xbox One versions then space is of no concern as there's already Switch games on the E-Shop that consume more than the 25GB of available space on the Switch. Even if the game was physical there are big-name games that have part of the game on cartridge while the rest has to be downloaded so Square Enix could have done that as well.

[@Epsilonsama]

@@HALberdier17 KHIII is an Unreal Engine game so it can be easily ported to the Switch.

[@jamesalexander5559]

@@Epsilonsama While you could port it "relatively" easily, KH3 would run like crap on the Switch. It's already 720p on the Xbox One and the framerate is all over the place. Square Enix would have to do a lot of work to get the game running decently on the Switch and by that point it might not be worth the money.

[@guidoblok]

I do not agree Sora is an empty vessel, hes clearly a character with emotions and characteristics of his own. I honestly would enjoy a KH way better if they based the entire story about existing square enix characters and create some new ones (I know that we remember these games most cause of disney but It would be challenging for square to see Sora travel to worlds which are closer to our world for example). And that might be the right path to take for KH4 since it doesntt require the populairity of disney anymore to stand on its own. The only problem is now that disney owns some of these characters its gonna be difficult to exclude disney from a KH project but thats another story.

[@XiiiTitan]

In my opinion, I don't think Disney should be excluded from any future entries. It's part of Kingdom Hearts' DNA and has been present from literally the beginning. I would like to see more of the Final Fantasy side of things aside from just cameos and the occasional boss fight, but to expect to see less Disney going forward is naive.

[@iantaakalla8180]

The Square Enix part of Kingdom Hearts may be increasing because of Versus XIII and The World Ends With You becoming integral parts of the next story.

[@XiiiTitan]

@@iantaakalla8180 Nomura never verified that The World Ends With You would play any significant part in the future of KH. And I'm not sure if Nomura will do a complete adaptation of Versus XIII or just pull elements from it.

[@thefvguy5648]

Disagree completely The identity of Kingdom Hearts is it’s crossover appeal. Taking away Disney Worlds and the characters in general is a absolutely awful move for the series going forward. People love Sora, Riku, Roxas, and all these characters. I do also agree they don’t need to rely on Disney or even other Sqaure Enix characters to stand out, but to remove that, would be removing the appeal of KH as a whole.

[@EskChan19]

It would have been more fair to say he's a generic protagonist with nothing special about him than an empty vessel. He does have a personality and he definitely makes (dumb) choices of his own so he's not just a silent protagonist. But he's the bog-standard "Power of Friendship Hero Boy" character we've seen a million times before with nothing to set him apart from the others. Out of all characters in Kingdom Hearts he's definitely the most boring one since he brings nothing to the table.

[@Klffsj]

Technically, "Simple and Clean" (or rather, "Hikari," in regard to the Japanese version of the song) was in the reveal trailer by means of the orchestra arrangement by Kaoru Wada. However, both Disney and Square Enix seem to have had more freedom with arrangements of Utada Hikaru's songs... as long as it's an instrumental arrangement. Also, consider that Kingdom Hearts has a few central themes. "Hikari" or "Simple and Clean" has been credited as the Theme Song or otherwise used for many Kingdom Hearts games, along with other Hikaru songs. Dearly Beloved is consistently used as the Main Menu theme, and it's theme is used a lot in some significant and heartfelt moments of the franchise. The theme for "March Caprice" (which plays during the credits of KH1, KH2, and Melody of Memory) can also be argued as a central theme; it's kinda like the Main Theme for Final Fantasy. The counter melody in "Dearly Beloved" (found in Chain of Memories onward) is actually based on this theme. "Destati" (not the version that made it into SSBU) was introduced to the world as the only music for the original Kingdom Hearts "beta trailer." Although it's rarely heard in the original game, it's theme has been constantly used throughout the franchise, including the Dive into the Heart, the End of the World, and final boss music in KH1. It's become something of a theme for Ansem, Seeker of Darkness, and Xehanort. "Sora" could also make sense as a central theme, since it is the character theme for the main protagonist. By similar logic, "Hand in Hand" would be a central theme as well, although this song is more about Sora's journey than Sora himself.

[@Neoxon619]

I think the removal of more traditional Disney characters is due to them probably costing an extra premium compared to what they likely already had to pay for Sora.

[@haloeightYT]

I don't know squat about KH. Just like I don't know anything about Final Fantasy. But when Cloud got in, even I recognized how enormous of a deal that was. Also like Cloud, Sora was up there with Sonic and Banjo Kazooie (and Goku) as names that _always_ came up in desired Smash character discussions. Seeing all the over-the-top, over-the-moon reactions to Sora really just can't help but warm my heart.

[@Tehblood]

this sora x smash deal really hits the same way id expect them trying to make a roger rabbit movie in the 2020s. i absoluetely love the kingdom hearts games, but i fully expected the licensing and disney being them, that it would never happen. the fact that somehow they actually got them to sign off on anything is amazing.

[@keaton3258]

Great breakdown of all this stuff. Not usually super interested in legal stuff but this was interesting since it had a lot of moving parts.

[@Yaeven]

Not the video I was expecting from this channel but I’m glad you had the idea of covering this. Very interesting to me how much deeper Sora’s inclusion goes relative to the average third party character.

[@silverancient7840]

Excellent explanation. One of the best vids ive seen on yt in a long time

[@judgem0rt1s23]

Not gonna lie, calling Kingdom Hearts "kinda weird" is putting it lightly.

[@Ven-20]

20:59 One thing about that stained glass: that was featured years ago in the mobile game KH Union x

[@dyllan890]

Sora making it into Smash as the last fighter is a moment in history! It is just so amazing to know that your vote in those polls really did matter. The long awaited answer we as Kingdom Hearts fans have always wanted. While we can’t play Kingdom Hearts games without an internet connection when the cloud versions are available we can still smash away at characters from all kinds of video games and franchises using our lovable and cheerful keyblade wielder

[@HoegLaw]

I really am glad so many seem so excited about the prospect! Congrats!

[@dyllan890]

@@HoegLaw alas I can’t take full credit for this celebration and victory for it is the fans of Kingdom Hearts that really made this happen. We unified together casting our ballots for our fighter to be in smash bros and we pushed the developers to break through all the red tape to make it a reality

[@nightmare0xranmabloodedge122]

Very interesting. Contracts and rights have ways to get through complicated situations...this was very helpful!

[@wolfgangromine8341]

this was really fascinating to watch. I find the legality of Sora/Kingdom Hearts rather interesting and this was a great overview. We'll never know exactly how the negotiations went but I still am very glad Sora's in Smash, if only as a celebration of Disney, Square Enix, Tetsuya Nomura, and Nintendo collaborating together to make something great.

[@HoegLaw]

Definitely!

[@blakelonestar]

After the announcement, I was looking forward to this more than any other reaction video.

[@HoegLaw]

Hey thanks!

[@dradel2050]

19:30 to be fair, a lot of characters have had amazing costumes in their games and not so much in Smash.

[@HoegLaw]

That is indeed fair.

[@ixfalia]

Sora may be defined by the worlds he travels through, but he is even more defined by the friends he's made along the way. Sora's catch phrase and a running theme for this series--even as it gets complicated, dark, or full of despair for him--is that now classic line (included in nearly all the games, if not all of them): "My friends are my power!" Sora's friends with all the Disney characters and that's what draws folks to the games, but Sora is also your friend. That's why he can be there without a lick of Disney and yet still carry his series. Connections are another theme and in that universe. Friends and connection are manifest and more. In the depths of Kingdom Hearts' plot, even when far away from the light of Disney worlds, Sora can call upon his friends and connections, in abstract and as actual power. When he says "My friends are my power" he means all of them, even if we don't see everyone, and that includes us too. That's how he can symbolically bring Disney without showing any Disney images. And that's why he can connect with folks so readily. I'm excited and happy for his inclusion in Smash too because it's gonna make a lot of folks really happy and excited and Sakurai and his staff deserve a lot of credit for what they've done. Also noteworthy, in the Trailer they use the orchestration version of Hikari (the Japanese vocal theme of the original Kingdom Hearts), that track must have some interesting copyright on it, and it being used is possibly an interesting copyright situation in itself.

[@bt4857]

One thing I’m surprised to see omitted from this analysis is the expansive copyright for Smash Ultimate that is featured on the game’s website as well as in every Smash video put out by Nintendo. With the inclusion of Sora, it includes Disney (see below). To me, this is solid evidence that Sora is, in fact, a Disney owned character. Or, at the very least, he is co-owned. As far as the question of who’s to blame for the lack of non-video game Disney content, I suspect it may have been mutual. But, even if there’s no Donald or Goofy, I think there’s no arguing against the fact that Disney is present in the game. © 2018 Nintendo Original Game: © Nintendo / HAL Laboratory, Inc. Characters: © Nintendo / HAL Laboratory, Inc. / Pokémon. / Creatures Inc. / GAME FREAK inc. / SHIGESATO ITOI / APE inc. / INTELLIGENT SYSTEMS / Konami Digital Entertainment / SEGA / CAPCOM CO., LTD. / BANDAI NAMCO Entertainment Inc. / MONOLITHSOFT / CAPCOM U.S.A., INC. / SQUARE ENIX CO., LTD. / ATLUS / Microsoft / SNK CORPORATION. / Mojang AB / Disney

[@tylerlarsen1842]

The lack of non-video game Disney content is a combination of huge licensing fees and Sakurai being strictly against including characters that don't originate from video games.

[@bt4857]

Oh for sure. I think the lack of iconic Disney imagery (save the keychain) was a mutual thing between Disney and the smash team. But insofar as the speculation surrounding ownership of the character Sora is concerned, I think the copyright for smash provides valuable insight

[@kcwilder]

Another addition to the music part of the video is that in the leak for Sora, a rep at Disney Music leaked that Nintendo asked for music strictly from Kingdom Hearts by Yoko Shimomura.

[@matthewtalbot6505]

I think something that was an aid to these no doubt difficult and complex negotiations is the fact that Square Enix, Tetsuya Nomura, Disney, and Nintendo have had similar conversations before. The Kingdom Hearts franchise has been on Nintendo platforms before. Kingdom Hearts: Chain of Memories was released on the GameBoy Advance, 358/2 Days was on the DS, Dream Drop Distance was originally launched on the 3DS, and most recently, Melody of Memories was released for the Switch along with Xbox One and PlayStation4. There is a history of all these different parties working together before.

[@HoegLaw]

Absolutely. Trust builds as relationships do.

[@Rationalityislost101]

@@HoegLaw Nintendo also gave use of its IP in Wreck-IT-Ralph, while it certainly restricted certain things, Bowser doesn't speak - something that keeps true to the character. Sonic is also infinitely easier to license monetarily than Mario or Link and wasn't so restrictive on use I'd imagine. Point is this partnership also went the direction of Disney+Pixar asking for permission.

[@kaiserphoenix2038]

Hey, I know BluePikmin11! We used to talk Smash Bros character speculation on the Smashboards forums back in the day, and he always made informative posts like the one in the video, good times. Great video btw!

[@deppo436]

While I don't like Sora or KH to that degree, what I can love his inclusion for this is without a doubt the biggest milestone in Smash's history so far because of all the legal mumbo jumbo they had to slog through just to get him in.

[@blubomber17]

Awesome video and content, used to work in northville and deliver food right by your office; small world! Keep up the awesome work, subscribed!

[@bballballin21]

If they’re allowing the full DS games to be played on Switch, that’ll be great

[@NA1c158]

Bro, same.

[@j-rexentertainment7246]

Hey getting the mickey logo to stay on sora's keyblade keychain is pushing it so I'm happy. I like how they flaunted it in the reveal trailer lol sakurai is the best. Disney clearly owns sora because, fun fact, in a one night event in disney japan when the original kingdom hearts released, disney specifically created a mascot costume of sora to go along with the recostumed donald and goofy. The pictures are very few and hard to find of said costume. Another fun fact a couple who loved kingdom hearts requested at their disney cruise wedding that kingdom hearts goofy and donald and goofy specifically make an experience. When you go and watch the video a disney cruise employee who was on the mic said something along the lines of: This is an exclusive one time appearance so hope you guys enjoy it. So clearly even when disney reps this video game franchise it is filled with red tape. Great video btw, much appreciation from the west coast and yes he is finally in, eternally happy with the announcement.

[@kouathalla9040]

Somebody can write a thesis out of this collab. I'd love to read it.

[@jackystarboi3152]

im suprised they allowed sora to have his timeless river/steamboat willie alt reference prob cuz the short film is really old at this point

[@DrewPicklesTheDark]

Never played Kingdom Hearts, but it's a big enough series that I know who Sora is and that it features Disney worlds and such. I was quite surprised to see him get in Smash knowing it's basically impossible to use a Disney IP without also signing away the rights to basically everything in the project. I can't think of any other times in my life that's happened (I am sure there are some, but I can't think of any).

[@StelarAnemone320]

I’ve never watched one of your videos but honestly from this video alone.. I’ll sub and keep watching. Hope to see the further success

[@HoegLaw]

Hey thanks so much!

[@ajcv-vw3tl]

Sora has 8 costumes but 2 I want to focus is his 6 and 7 costumes Valor and Wisdom form. Both are like a transformation form that changes sora's movement and it requires one of the members in the party but it focused more on Donald and Goofy. Goofy needs to be present in order to use Valor form and for Donald to be able to use Wisdom. So it's implied that they're both in the game in some way FORM That is my Ted talk thank you for listening.

[@HoegLaw]

I like that thought. Nice comment!

[@Antonio-is2cn]

2021 was the year Disney and Nintendo made magic together! Great time to be a gamer!

[@BluePikmin11R]

It’s really cool to see my speculation posts get some attention recently, and in this video. Back then as a longtime Smash speculator in 2018, I believed that Sora’s chances in Smash Switch were very possible (This was before it was named Smash Ultimate in E3 2018), and I made several in-depth analyses, updates, and posts on KHInsider, Smashboards, and Reddit regarding the legalities, the relationships between Nintendo/Square Enix/Disney, and Nomura’s statements, and scouring through all the interviews, doing what I could to show people Sora wasn’t a legal/controlling nightmare and was possible to include and implement. Though a year later, my want for Sora declined immensely, after playing through Kingdom Hearts 3, because it was a disappointing sequel. And shortly after that, I stopped speculating for Smash Ultimate altogether during the DLC Fighter Pass period. But seeing these posts rebound again after Sora’s reveal, it feels like the time I spent researching and analyzing Sora’s chances for Smash paid off greatly. Sora was one of the very few Ultimate newcomers that I legitimately got very excited about. Seeing the newcomer that the Smash community has long seen as “impossible” or “highly unlikely” actually happen was an amazing and surreal experience. Good video Hoeg.

[@HoegLaw]

That's great context! Thanks for the comment!

[@birdlegscass]

small correction: the poll was done after the release of the fourth smash game and before the current one, not before the entire series

[@Carahan]

This is some really great sleuthing! I'm amazed you managed to track all of this down and the use of what other people would consider obscure details to come a really insightful set of conclusions in such a short period of time.

[@legacytag]

24:33 They did clarify and say only KH III is going to be cloud based

[@HoegLaw]

Did they? That would be great news.

[@legacytag]

@@HoegLaw Ya, I at least know that 1.5 + 2.5 are going to be strictly on the console at least

[@PillzmansFox]

Another note, Sora is a costumed character at Disney but has only made an appearance 3 times, twice to promote a Kingdom Hearts game and once for a wedding. The reason he's so rare is because Disney has always needed permission with square to have him out. Which was easy for the promotion of the games but I heard was hell for the wedding

[@AlphaStoutland]

I knew they had Donald & Goofy at that wedding in their KH attire, but I thought it was just them and that they couldn't get Sora to show up. Was Sora actually there too?

[@doswallo]

Not only was Sora the most requested fighter from the ballot all those years ago, but he's a testament to the persistence and dedication of Sakurai, the Smash developers, and everyone else involved in making collaborations like this work. I think he was the perfect character to end on for that reason alone.

[@dragongamerrylucius]

Aside from Sora, we didn't get any Disney characters in Smash. Mickey, Donald and Goofy are not there. Not even as Spirits.

[@dragongamerrylucius]

But Disney is mentioned in the end credits, along with the rest of the other gaming companies.

[@KBroly]

Sakurai's one rule for Smash Bros. is they had to start in video games. Nothing like Iron Man or Goku, which Sakurai has stated specifically.

[@dragongamerrylucius]

@@KBroly I know. I am clearly aware of that rule. Characters must be video game originated. No comics, manga, movies, anime characters allowed. That means no Goku, Iron Man, Shrek, etc.

[@ALegitPooperVideos]

But Sora still has his Mickey Mouse keychain...

[@dragongamerrylucius]

@@ALegitPooperVideos It just means that Nintendo and Sakurai must've made some negotiation deals with both Square Enix AND Disney for the right to include them in Smash Ultimate.

[@delirium6510]

I am watching Hoeg's videos while craving #ShrimpFriedRice to support @HoegLaw, @MrsHoegLaw & the Hoeglings! We miss you Rick and can't wait for you to be fully recovered!

[@mrplow8]

My guess is that they probably could’ve gotten the rights to use Disney characters if they wanted to, but that would’ve taken even more negotiating and made an already complicated licensing deal even more complicated, and they ultimately decided that it wasn’t worth it. Mickey ears for a Mii Fighter hat would’ve been cool, though.

[@pikachuiguana]

In the list of copyright owners regarding the characters within Super Smash Bros Ultimate, Disney is now featured among the copyright owners

[@dezthepleb]

Sora is the only DLC fighter I am going to purchase. I watched the fighting video with Sakura and it looks so good. I hadn't played Smash in a year and started again the day Sora was announced. My daughter is so excited as well.

[@HoegLaw]

Have fun! Hope you have a great time!

[@RikuMcduck]

Same!

[@drantino]

the one thing thats intresting to think about even know it has little effect in this context is that mickey soon being public domain

[@keleynal4424]

I was thrilled to hear “Simple and Clean” in the Sora launch trailer, but crushed that it wouldn’t be heard in game. Just give us the things!!

[@silverboltscrapper]

Seriously, it should've been against some kind of rule to use songs in trailers only for them to not make it into the game.

[@supertails0246]

I don’t think simple and clean are owned by Disney or square

[@agipson101]

@@supertails0246 its not..its owned by a music label in japan..plus the song was made wsy before kh..they just ask to use it

[@supertails0246]

@@agipson101 ah ok

[@EskChan19]

They really only use music fit for fighting though. Simple and Clean is way too chill to put you in a fighting mood. That's why it's mainly boss music they put in.

[@JeffreySmiles_]

This was extremely interesting and highly appreciated 😁

[@jblue88hoodgamer54]

People must of forgot that on Recoded an Dream Drop sora was on his own without Donald an Goofy.

[@fenrirpanopticon419]

That was not Sora, that was Data Sora

[@ticklers]

@@fenrirpanopticon419 You're thinking of KH Coded.

[@EskChan19]

@@fenrirpanopticon419 In Coded yes, in Dream Drop it's normal Sora.

[@coolguy1343]

There is that bonus song for playing Kingdom hearts Melody whatever the title is

[@ahettinger525]

See, I wonder if Sora played out as him specifically being owned by Square, despite the game itself being owned by Disney. With the Final Fantasy tie-ins in Kingdom Hearts, I'm fairly sure Disney can't own everything in Kingdom Hearts; Square wasn't going to let that much of the Final Fantasy IP get turned over. That said, the keychain is somewhat compelling that Disney okayed it. It seems to me, though, that type of arrangement wouldn't have to be made clear in any of the public copyright notices.

[@HoegLaw]

Kingdom Hearts is developed by Square so they can license in whatever they want (subject to agreed upon terms.) The game itself is owned by Disney, but Square won’t lose its “background” IP it incorporates that into the project, it will just be licensed for use in that product.

[@kuricosmos]

@@HoegLaw Correct, also there is mention in some material that states Square Enix properties are copyright to them when you dig a bit deeper. Sora though, make no mistake, is a Disney character. Nomura says as much, he even appears in Japan's Disney World (or do they call it Land, ugh hard to keep track) during certain events. Though lastly, as if this wasn't bloody obvious, Disney's name was added to the long corporate list. Timeless River and the Kingdom key chain was the "yeah we own this". I also want to point out just how much Disney's production teams work on Kingdom Hearts. They model, animate, supervise story, collaborate, it's a big deal for Disney. They're not absentee landlords!

[@GaiashKetoji]

Here’s how I understand the rights to Kingdom Hearts versions of existing characters. If you have the rights to Kingdom Hearts and the characters you can use them. The best way of looking at this is with Kingdom Hearts characters in other games. There’s a few Final Fantasy mobile games that have done Kingdom Hearts tie ins and they’ve been able to use KH original characters and the KH versions of Final Fantasy characters. You can play as KH1 Cloud and extra long sword Sephiroth in Brave Exvius but no Donald or Goofy. In contrast you have Disney Emoji Blitz, a game that has plenty of versions of Donald and Goofy already so when they added Kingdom Hearts characters they were able to use Donald and Goofy but there’s no sign of anything Final Fantasy in the game.

[@darthsoulkiller2377]

Disney owns Kingdom Hearts, meaning all of the original worlds and characters. They do not own or have copyrights to any of the Final Fantasy-related aspects. This is stated on the back of the game cases.

[@darthsoulkiller2377]

@@GaiashKetoji The original KH characters in those games still have copyrights and trademarks indicating they are Disney property, meaning Square Enix cannot freely use the KH original characters without approval from Disney. This sentiment has been echoed by Nomura in multiple interviews over the years. Any variations of FF characters are free to be used however SE wishes.

[@UndertakerU2ber]

I can imagine how tense the discussions were for Sakurai. Disney would ask “If we allow Sora to be playable in this video game wielding a keyblade with a symbol of our company’s mascot, what kinds of things can we expect players to do with him?” Sakurai probably had to inform them of things like Sora being able to hold and throw the grenades Snake throws at him. I know I’d be nervous about asking Disney for permission to have characters like Joker whip out real guns to shoot at the characters they own, and having to tell them point blank that “No, there can’t be any compromises. Sora HAS to be able to wield Snake’s grenades, Sora HAS to be able to be shot with realistic firearms, and Sora HAS to have blood shooting out of his body in the form of stars during Joker’s ultimate.” Disney also probably took into consideration what kinds of internet content and memes Sora’s inclusion would generate, including videos of Sora chucking Snake’s US military style grenades at people, Sora suffering through all of the character’s final smashes without any censorship, Sora being able to fight in every Smash stage as is, Sora being able to fight in user created stages that may include obscene content, etc. etc. etc. Imagine if Disney said “We’re okay with Sora in Smash, except for him being able to use realistic looking grenades. So long as Sora isn’t allowed to hold or throw those grenades, we’d be happy to allow him to appear.” Obviously, Nintendo wouldn’t compromise by deliberately programming Sora to be unable to use specific items, so talks would immediately collapse due to Disney wanting to protect Sora’s image…

[@kiryn5977]

Personally, I think it was more on Sakurai's end that kept the Disney stuff out of Smash. Bc here's the thing: if Disney is so super against their characters "hitting things", then how in the fuck did they allow Kingdom Hearts itself to exist in the first place? And it's not like Sora and Co just beat up shadow monsters, they also beat up actual human beings too. So imo, if they allowed it once, they've literally proven they're not above allowing it to happen again (especially when you consider that, if Disney REALLY didn't like the fighting stuff, they could have killed the series after the very first game, and not allowed it to grow into the behemoth that it is today). Obvs, that doesn't mean they would've given Sakurai free reign to do whatever the hell he wanted, they probably still watched over the process like a hawk, but I don't think they'd have given a hard no to, say, having Donald and Goofy on Sora's Dive to the Heart. Maybe it would've cost more money, but I think it'd have been doable. Mostly tho, I think Sakurai is just that dedicated to his "video game celebration" vision. I also high-key disagree with the assessment of Sora's character, and think he's so much more than just an "empty vessel", but whatever. Lastly, fwiw, Donald and Goofy ARE referenced in the trailer.....where do you think the power of Wisdom and Valor Forms came from? Maybe it's too subtle for you, but as a KH fan, I'm satisfied, as Sora IS still carrying the power of his companions and friends with him on this new journey---Donald and Goofy are literally still with him in spirit, according to KH's own canon and lore.

[@Cri_Jackal]

CONSUME your allies to GAIN ARCANE POWER.

[@wholockedholmes5600]

I think they skirt around the 'hitting things' aspect by having Donald use the mage staff and having Goofy using the shield. Both blunt objects and they also heavily use magic and "special attacks." Plus, the mass majority of enemies in KH are monsters, not humans, which gives them a lot of leeway in terms of fighting. And most of those humans are 'bad guys' giving the disney character the moral highground to stop them. In the Sephiroth fights (because there's no hiding that Sephiroth is slicing characters with a sword) and in a few of the serious endgame battles, Donald and Goofy aren't there either. They're gone for a chunk of the Ansem SOD fight and you fight Xemnas with Riku (in which Riku gets really hurt by Xemnas, imagery that Disney probably wanted to keep Donald and Goofy away far away from.) KH3 really is the only time where Donald and Goofy are with you the entire time, but KH3 could've gotten some leeway since it was the climax of the story and the end of the fight shows off that the trio's friendship is stronger than the villain, which would be on-brand for Disney. The only out of left field example is Goofy hitting hit by that boulder in KH2 right before the 1000 Heartless battle and Sora, Mickey, and Donald thinking he's dead. God knows how long Square and Nomura had to fight for that scene lmao.

[@dragons_hook]

All the Disney you need is right at the tip of the keychain.

[@kiryn5977]

@@wholockedholmes5600 Okay, but the point still stands. Whatever stipulations Disney has about HOW the fighting happens, they still ALLOW IT TO HAPPEN. Obvs, Sakurai had to comply with the same standards that were given to Nomura and Square in terms of how their characters function in a fight, so if Sakurai had wanted Donald and Goofy, there's no reason for Disney to have said no to the characters showing up on Sora's Dive to the Heart, or in his Final Smash, as again, they've proven with KH itself that they'll allow it under specific conditions. But that would have probably cost even more money than Sora by himself (not to mention, Sakurai/Nintendo did shell out for use of images of some of the other KH original characters, and Sora's Steamboat Willie-inspired design), and so that in addition to the conflict w/ Sakurai's stated vision is probably why Sakurai turned down Donald and Goofy. Tl;dr: again, it's more likely to me that it was Sakurai who didn't want to have any more of the Disney stuff than he had to; while it would be fair to say that Disney is very strict and stringent about the uses of their characters, I doubt they were the ones to give a hard no to Donald and Goofy appearing in Smash.

[@5h0ckblock]

For the music, I remember with other dlc characters Sakurai has mentioned that they give a list of songs they want to put in the game then are told which songs are they can/can't use. I forgot which character video specifically he had said that for, but applying that to kingdom hearts music, I think its safe to assume he asked for *insert song here* and was likely told no. Licensing is also a huge part of it too though like you said, that's the main reason why when Cloud was added to the series he only came with 2 tracks. Final Fantasy music is written by several people. Its a combination of both license and permissions.

[@Midnightgirl10]

Im fine with that! They dont need to show off Disney characters at all! All I wanted was Sora! And my god they delivered. Personally I think his outfits should have been all the fairy outfits he got in KH2 (Green, Blue, Red) and NOT the Dream Drops outfit, and also NOT the Ultimate Form and instead the Yellow one he had in KH3. Since these are actual outfits he wears and it just happens to be also team colors in Smash Bros. I'm only a little bit sad its only Sora and not any other keyblade wielder like Riku or Aqua as a fighter, but Im still happy they put him in this game! He deserved it the most out of any character!

[@handsoaphandsoap]

Riku would’ve been a cool echo fighter but honestly, it probably would’ve been too much work. Sora and Riku have very different playstyles and movesets in the games so it’d just feel sorta cheap if they’d slap Sora’s moveset onto Riku with just minor tweaks. Same with the other playable characters, they’ve all got different movesets and animations that don’t translate to how they made Sora. Maybe Roxas or Xion could work but even they’ve got their own fighting styles and don’t really use the same abilities as Sora, like Sonic Blade or Stopga.

[@Midnightgirl10]

@@handsoaphandsoap If they ever added Riku he better not play as an echo fighter! I feel like a slightly slower heavy hitter fits him! With dark powers as his b moves or heaver Keyblade attacks! Same if it were Aqua only she'd be faster more stronger b move magic powers and softer Keyblade attacks! They are just iconic characters to me that could fit in and still play very differently from Sora.

[@iantaakalla8180]

Admittedly, if they do have echo fighters status it will be with their spells, as spells in Kingdom Hearts seem to be universal. Their actual play styles had better be different. (But now that I type it, that would make them Kingdom Hearts Ness/Lucas.)

[@videogameprof]

that mickey mouse key chain will be the ONLY non-videogame imagery in smash.

[@Americanbadashh]

Disney is the confirmed owner of Kingdom Hearts. They cleared this up in like 2016 when they added the Keyblade to Disney Infinity without Square Enix's involvement, an executive confirmed they are the 100% owner. The reason why no other Disney character show up is because they all either originated in cartoons or live action, and Smash/Nintendo has a strict rule that the character must be from a video game originally. Now this isn't a legal thing, but a policy Nintendo has regarding who can be including, and they're very strict about it. There's an entire Disney mii game coming out soon featuring tons of Disney character next to Nintendo's mii's, clearly Disney has no issues with their traditional IP appearing in Nintendo games and next to other IP, also the existence of Marvel vs Capcom Infinite; where tons of Marvel character appeared along side Capcom characters

[@darthsoulkiller2377]

Thank you for this comment! There is so much misinformation and inaccurate analysis in the video. I don't think the uploader did the correct research, a lot of this info was cleared up years ago and easily found online.

[@supasoja2137]

People saying non movie characters can't be in smash, but cloud's second smash alt is literally from a movie

[@ryanwall5760]

Cloud still originates from a game. Presumably a Detective Pikachu outfit based on the film rather than the game would be allowable by the same rule.

[@supasoja2137]

@@ryanwall5760 hol' up what if we got the movie voice actors too. Chris Pratt, Ryan Reynolds, and Ben Schwartz in the same game.

[@ryanwall5760]

It would be weird but the characters still originate from games, full stop.

[@supasoja2137]

Yeah, that makes sense. I wonder if the only reason goofy and Donald weren't background characters was because of licensing rather than their origins. they definitely wouldn't be playable or anything but I think they could work in taunts of a final smash

[@ryanwall5760]

Could be. I just think they’d avoid Disney elements not directly related to Sora himself (the Mickey symbol on the key lads) to avoid setting up weird future expectations

[@JohnGuyJohn]

Regardless of why it turned out that way, I'm glad there's still one rule of Smash inclusion left: characters that got their starts in video games.

[@Buki0300]

The stained glass is different without them