Suspension Basics 03: Watts Link, Triangulated Four Link and Panhard Bar Explained

There are multiple ways of keeping a rear axle centered under a vehicle frame. Using a miniature truck frame we show 3 of the most common designs used to locate an axle and keep it from moving side to side.
Also in this video:
How the Watts links work and a demonstration on why the Watts link does NOT cause the axle to move up and down.
How triangulated 4 links work and why you should build one.
How panhard bars work and their side effects.
My Wife's Mighty Max will be getting a parallel 4 link with a Watts link.
Subscribe to see the construction!
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[@thepwee]

I’ve been doing suspension for 30 years now... I’m pretty sure I couldn’t explain it better... well done sir...

[@GarageFab]

Thank you, my man! Cheers!

[@kaylamccall1051]

Guys like you are invaluable! I wish I could buy you guys a beer or 30 for sharing with us dummies!

[@donziperk]

I have also built suspensions for years and that demo model was exactly what I need to explain to customers how it all works. Or I can just refer them to this outstanding video. Thank you.

[@GarageFab]

Thank you, Kayla! No beers necessary. That was thanks enough! 🙏

[@GarageFab]

Yes! Please do share @donziperk! Happy to be of service my friend.

[@joshreese1721]

I'm definitely not tired of these "school" type videos. I find them very helpful and your models and drawings are amazing. I know how much time they take. I really appreciate them.

[@GarageFab]

That’s good to hear. Thank you, Josh. It’s hard for me to make this type of learning interesting. I appreciate you back!

[@JackTulsen77]

Let's not forget how nice his voice is... No homo, homies.

[@GarageFab]

Haha! Thank you, Jack. 🙏

[@GarageGeek]

I am an offroader that usually watches jeep related channels. Yet you provided the best explanation of a triangulated four-link that I have ever seen. Thank you!

[@GarageFab]

Thank you, my friend! These videos were intended for fellow Mini Truckers, but it’s been really cool to hear that people from other scenes are getting value from them. Very much appreciated. 🙏

[@superiorfleetsolutions3967]

You are an Einstein as far as explaining complicated subjects in a simple way

[@GarageFab]

Thank you for the kind words! Certainly not Einstein. Very thick headed actually. I try to explain things in a way that I could understand. 😆

[@bryanb5413]

How do you only have 26.1K subs? RIGHT? This information is so accurate and understandable all while being articulated very well. Thanks for sharing!

[@GarageFab]

Thank you Bryan! 🙏 Very much appreciated. The subs are comin! Magic is happening. Garage Fab was at 23,000 less than 3 weeks ago. 😳 A little patience and a bunch of hard work and we’ll be doing just fine.

[@flyonbyya]

@@GarageFab Sub count is not important… The effort combined with your clear desire, energy and talent to teach & demonstrate are what is ! Remarkable !

[@GarageFab]

Thank you my friend! I’m not OVERLY concerned with the numbers, however, that flashy sub count is one of the few metrics that shows that people are interested and want more. It makes all the work seem like it hasn’t been wasted. Thank you again! You’re appreciation is appreciated! ❤️

[@BOBANDERSON5150]

When I'm fabbing something, I refer to it as a "Shopping Cart Handle" to keep people guessing. It's especially satisfying when someone agrees with me.

[@GarageFab]

Hahaha! 😂 There are so many incorrect terms that just make more sense than whatever the real term is. Cheers, Bob!

[@designandbuild3953]

Knowledge is among the greatest gifts that can be given, and you have a gift for giving it. Love that visual aid! Almost want to go build one just to play with. This channel is gonna be a huge success.

[@GarageFab]

It is in fact a really fun adult toy. I’m hoping I can use it to demonstrate front suspension as well but I worry it’ll be too small. I predict I’m going to have to create a more life sized model. Time will tell. Thank you my man! I’m definitely trying. 😅

[@kingpin76110]

Totally agree. Nice work Sir. You def have a knack for teaching.

[@GarageFab]

Much appreciated my friend. 🙏 See you in the next video Monday morning!

[@BUZZKILLII1]

I stumbled on your channel . All I have to say is WOW. Just got a new KZbin channel set up. No content yet. A friend and I will be just showing what we enjoy from Rats and Mini Trucks : ME and 4x4 and Odd rides : Him. Please do not change from showing the educational things. This is so needed. Im 56 and loved mini trucks sense my first one in 1984. 100 show placements . Have not touched a truck in 30 years. A lot has changed . Never welded a thing. We plan to show even at 56 and 58 years old you can start a new and have fun. I just want to thank you for being willing to teach . Not everyone can or will. May GOD richly bless you for doing this.

[@GarageFab]

Well it’s not often I feel young anymore, but your first Mini Truck when I was 3 helps! Thank you my friend! I started I didn’t really consider it “teaching.” I just felt that something was missing from other automotive shows. The “why”. It’s fun to watch people build custom cars, but why do they do the things they do? Let me know when your first video comes out! I’d like a vision in to where my hobby started. 🙌

[@BUZZKILLII1]

@@GarageFab We lost most of the photos to a thief that stole most of our things and burnt the rest. My 1986 Toyota X-tra Cab long bed was bought new, and went threw several versions. First one lowered with torsion bars until the front cross member was 2 inches off ground. And lowering 4 inch blocks in rear . Rear bumper delete . 5 airbrushed beach scenes. Hood Blond in Bikini in waves to her knees. same on dash passenger side , Both bottom door insides. And across the tailgate. Craiger Prostar wheels low pro tires, Targa top and carpeted bed. Second go round was 7 colors most vette colors and the addition of a side ways tilt bed. Polished Valve cover under the hood with a modified 22R dirt track motor . Nearly 300 hp. The truck was super fun to drive and very fast. We won nearly 100 trophies in car shows. We showed everything we could find. From small shows in towns to the first South East Nationals at Charlotte Motor speedway where we got an honorable mention with nearly 1000 trucks there. We also started the 2nd Mini Truck club on the east coast of the US with Street Dreams mini trucks . Of which I was VP. I miss it with everything in me and need my tail kicked for letting it go. You have brought back so many great memories. Again thank you.

[@kaylamccall1051]

THANK YOU for this video. I have to go back and watch 1 and 2. My gfs and I are so lost on this custom build. It's just this one little pice of science... Amber and I along wit Rachel, handing us tools & supplies (& lunch!) took a 2001 Ford Ranger, tossed out the v6 motor and trans (after replacing 4 v6 sohc engines!!!), removed the front torsion bars and cut off their mounts, and now we threw a built fuel injected 302 and c6 trans in to the frame, converted the front suspension to coilovers instead of torsion bars and shocks, and now the rear is getting a triangulated 4 link and coilovers instead of leaf springs and shocks. But honestly I have never built a rear 4 link before and so just this video alone already helps me understand a little of the geometry!

[@GarageFab]

That sounds like a blast of a project! You’ve got far more patience than I have. I would’ve junked the truck after the second motor. You’ve got my attention with the 302. I’ve never used one despite it being my favorite sounding motor. I’d love to see this creation of yours! Thank you for the kind words, Kayla. 🙏 See you in the next one!

[@ashleyhall-hemsath485]

I'm fairly dense without visually seeing so the fact that you took the time to create the model is awesome very clear and easy to understand and follow along.

[@GarageFab]

Thank you for that, Ashley! It’s good to hear it wasn’t wasted time. I’ve been considering creating a similar model when we get to front suspension but it’ll be so much more complex and challenging to build. But if it helps, I guess it must be done! You are appreciated! 🍻

[@RetroAnachronist]

Your videos are great. I thought I knew enough to do my parallel 4 link install with what I knew. I think in two short videos you just saved me some major mistakes and haven’t increased the difficulty of my plans at all. Thank you.

[@mikewebb7311]

I have to say, I’ve built countless rear suspension setups and this video was amazing! Not sure there is a better way to break it down and explain it!

[@GarageFab]

Thank you, Mike!

[@RecklessRegal]

DUDE! That scale model is a GREAT idea to demonstrate how each of these types of suspension work. One that I didn't see mentioned is the parallel 4 link with a wishbone (what I'm running in the Buick). It's a combination of the parallel 4 link which gives you more adjustability for traction and the triangulated 4 link which centers the housing in the vehicle. None the less, this is a great explination.

[@GarageFab]

I can't say I've seen a wishbone used WITH a parallel 4 link before I saw yours. It seems to be pretty common in the drag racing scene tho. I've seen a lot of folks use a wishbone AS the upper bars. Pretty much the triangulated 4 link but with a single Heim at the point. How does adding a wishbone to a parallel 4 link affect body roll? A lot of Mini Truckers like to have side to side adjustability. I can't imagine that's something you want flying down the drag strip. Thank you, Brother!

[@12vchance]

This was easily one of the easiest to understand videos i’ve ever watched

[@GarageFab]

I’m honored. Thank you my friend. 🙏

[@andreygeiserman1191]

you are the king of explanations. took your info to the rc cars world, I am very new to this. thank you

[@GarageFab]

Yes! Awesome to hear someone outside of the Mini Truck scene getting value. Cheers!

[@rodboadwineiii3830]

Man, I am so glad I found you. Next year I'm going to bag my 06 chevy 4d 4x4, built lbz duramax 3500 dually. I'm going to have to learn more about that shopping cart. I really enjoyed your video. KZbin university thank you. I'm learning.

[@thomasjohannesen1003]

This was insanely informative. I'm a freshman mechanical engineering student and this reminded me why I'm interested in the first place. Thank you!

[@GarageFab]

That’s awesome! I have zero official education. (Building education anyway. 😂) I’m just a Tinkerer so I envy you. Good luck and thank you back!

[@francfurian8215]

I'm so glad I found your channel on the tube. Sir, you are a very good teacher! Cheers & stay safe🙂

[@GarageFab]

Thank you, Franc! Glad you found it too! See you in the next!

[@treborheminway3814]

Really great overview. I watch a few off road fabrication channels, and they usually don't get anywhere near in-depth as you on this stuff. See lots of panhard bars too! (I'm surprised how many given these vehicles have a fair bit of travel.) One common upgrade to the high end builds is a triangulated 4 link. Now I understand why. I always thought it was just for more travel.

[@GarageFab]

Yep! The triangulated 4 link is a superior set up! It works great on everything and it’s really quite simple. The only reason I don’t often use it is it’s really quite simple! 😂

[@tunnelmot]

Love the tech, illustrations and editing. Keep it coming!

[@GarageFab]

I just wanna weld something! Thank you!

[@1966cambo]

just found your channel, watched the one on the Watts bar and subbed right after that.

[@GarageFab]

Thrilled to have you my friend! You’ve caught me on a biweekly video spree. Trying to keep that going as long as possible. I’ll see you NEXT weekend! 🙌

[@loganpigeon7527]

well I just found one of my new favourite channels

[@GarageFab]

Thank you, Logan! Glad to have you. 🙏 See you Monday morning. 👍

[@ElevenTenthsKRacing]

EXCEPTIONAL! JUST WHAT I WAS WANTING TO LEARN!!! I first found you when a client shared a video of the headboard you did where you used the black magic patina. They wanted me to use the same product on some table bases I was welding up for some wood tops they were building. Glad to see you again! Great content, editing, video/sound quality, all the things!!!

[@GarageFab]

Thank you for the kind words, my friend! How did the table bases turn out? Glad you found the channel and I look forward to seeing you in the next one. 🙌 Cheers!

[@cotybrown1226]

Love these lessons as much as the builds. There's a lot of people in the mini truckin scene, new and old, that can benefit from knowing the basics. Build it right the first time.

[@GarageFab]

Agreed! I learned a bit from Mini Truckin Joe's KZbin back in the day and I was super grateful. I always kinda wanted to be that guy. Thank you, Brother.

[@ManChildMaineiac]

I’m rewatching this series before I start my 88 S10 4link setup. I love the way your mighty max is set up so I’m ordering a Thornros. Super lift triangulated 4link I want to use 30” bars for the least amount of pinion angle change. Love the videos! Keep em coming buddy!

[@obiknobi8447]

I'm really enjoying your content. In our town there are zero suspension specialists. Only OEM parts replacement "specialists"/"technicians". Your channel is guiding me through my 2, now forced, DIY projects. D21 Nissan & 521 Datsun. Thanks again from sunny 🇿🇦🇿🇦✌

[@GarageFab]

That’s exciting to hear! I said in a video once, “If you don’t have a fabricator in your area, now is a good time to become a fabricator in your area.” If you’ve got questions, feel free to ask! I’ll be answering every comment until I’m overwhelmed with comments. Best of luck on your builds my friend. And thank you for your kind words! 🙏

[@obiknobi8447]

@@GarageFab I definitely will, thanks again.

[@frente2zapatista]

Man am watching this over and over and over again... am so glad I found your channel.. I need to start doing my own suspension work, am sick to my stomach on waiting for my trucks suspensions to get finished ( 3 trucks in 3 different shops) there is not a single responsible professional shop around every one is surviving taking half of the money from somebody to complete somebody else’s project and it’s the same BS all over.... am a pipe welder and can fabricate as well and finding the time is always been my biggest struggle...

[@GarageFab]

I feel you you, my man. Time is rare. But sounds like you’ve about had enough crap and you’re about to discover a bunch of time. I’m excited to see what you do. 🙌

[@bearcoatcustoms3619]

Don’t know how I stumbled across your channel but happy I’m here and a new subscriber!

[@GarageFab]

Yes! Thank you. I’ll be following you as well. I’ve been wanting to learn about powder coating for a while now.

[@KeeperofTheMountain]

I have watched several of your videos. I like them a lot. I am getting ready to install a 96 Cougar IRS into my "Project Boat Tail" Roadster on my channel. I will be recommending your videos on understanding suspension. You are doing a great job.

[@GarageFab]

Thank you my friend! I’ll be watching the progress. I look forward to it. Best of luck, Brother!

[@lui472]

Amazing videos, extreme high quality! thanks for sharing! it would be awesome to see other types of linkages, such as 3 link or IRS and how it compares to 4 links.

[@GarageFab]

@@lui472 Thank you my friend! I agree. I have plans to build a vehicle that will be able to accommodate all suspension styles so that I can real world test them. Don’t hold your breath though. That’s pretty far in the future. 😬

[@lui472]

@@GarageFab sounds just fantastic, I will not hold my breath but I look forward to see your future content. I subscribed and all 😁 A thing that I still struggle to understand with the triangulated 4 link is how the body roll works. I know some put sway bars on, and some don't as some geometry can lock your roll. And I can't figure out the geometry or rules. I'll probably try and make a model with the 3d printer to figure it out. 😅

[@onespeedworld6979]

Great video, excellent display models! Thanks for sharing and posting!

[@GarageFab]

Thank you, my friend. 🙏

[@drew79s]

First off, this is an excellent video, I love the model as well, that's awesome :) The big trap with a triangulated four link is the forces; the longer the four link upper bars the higher the forces, but the forces in a triangulated four link will never be as low as the forces in a Watt's link. In the case of the model you've presented I'd guess that the angle of the links is something in the order of 30 degrees off the vehicle axis. That means that the link forces will be approximately double those of the Watt's link. You'll end up with a higher risk of linkage collapse as well, because you've got a longer link than parallel four links, with the added forces associated with both the drive and longitudinal forces as well as the lateral force adder. This can substantially increase the chance of long column collapse. Additionally it'll put a lot higher loads on the chassis attachment points. It'll also potentially limit the life of the joints. IMO the best linkage setup for anyone who's not smashing it with a CAD or specific suspension design program is probably three link with watts or panhard bar... It's a lot more fault tolerant than other suspension designs for live axle. If you've got the knowledge to look at joint compliance for a four link, then a parallel four link is better, but without correct bush design it'll bind and can damage bushes or mechanically lock at certain positions. Triangulated four links will also create lateral axle movements, but this movement occurs when you lift a single wheel.

[@sabadabigarage1595]

Can you do a video on triangular 4 link suspension. Similar to the watt link video in your channel. Have a kp60 Toyota starlet and currently doing a diff swap and need to weld on the tabs. The axis are not in line Please and thanks in advance.

[@siggyincr7447]

I've never modified a truck's suspension or ,what I'd really love to do, built one from scratch. But this is the sort of stuff that I love thinking through in my head. Imagining how to constrain movement in every direction except the one you want to maximize it in while keeping the design as light as possible. Looking forward to watching more the series.

[@GarageFab]

You and I are the same my friend. I don’t need much to entertain myself. Just a challenging thought exercise. Happy to have you! 🍻

[@asharma9345]

Excellent video bro. You are my Teacher of Suspension sciences.

[@GarageFab]

Haha! Thank you my friend. 🙏

[@richardmogel2186]

The entire reason I found you was because of the old sbc ram 50 these are great

[@GarageFab]

Sweet!! Stick around, Richard. That truck (and it’s offspring) is coming back better than ever as soon as my Wife’s second Gen Mighty Max is running. It’s gonna be all kinds of fun.

[@v.e.7236]

I really like the triangulated four-link I installed on my S-10 Blazer Extreme, as it gave that little truck a road-racer feel - we're talking serious lateral Gs. Air Ride has a front suspension upgrade/mod that completely eliminates the bump-steer so inherent to that chassis and it drives like its on rails and puts a big cheeseburger grin on my face every time I go through some twisties on some random backroad. Driver bliss!

[@GarageFab]

I’d love to see what that kit looks like. You make it sound awesome. 👏

[@v.e.7236]

@@GarageFab Sadly, a drunk driver took it out, while parked in front of my sister's house one Saturday morning - about a month ago. I'm looking for a replacement vehicle to swap all of my go-fast goodies over to. Would love to find another 2DR Blazer - love the look. Wouldn't mind a stepside, like an extrnded cab Sanoma or something similar. I'd just gotten ahold of an LS6 off Craig's List, to drop in, as well. Makes me ill just thinking about it. smh The suspension kit from AirRide is pretty sweet, w/ adjustable Shockwave airshocks up front and similar in back w/ a triangulated 4-link underneath, but it wasn't cheap, at just over $5K. Took a while to collect the ducats on a fixed income. Not sure I can even make a "replacement" happen.

[@rexhavoc2982]

So far you have made it simple to understand, What I want to see is left right wheel travel as in off road or even un even ground conditions. How far can your desk top model left tire lift and not twist the frame using a 4 bar set up? Most 4 bar set ups are for drag strips and level roads. Lets try for a 10 inch wheel travel design. Thanks.

[@GarageFab]

Thank you, Rex! One of the most common link bar set ups for off-road (especially rock crawlers) is the Triangulated 4 link, or even the Double Triangulated 4 link. Two main things that prevent articulation is the bar ends and the chassis/body. If you use Heim joints with misalignment spacers on the bar ends, you can get a crazy amount of articulation. So much that the tires would hit the fenders, and without fenders the axle would hit the frame. This is the problem with my model. The 4 bar setup would allow lots of articulation, but the frame would get in the way of the bars full capability. Another thing that limits articulation is the lateral axle locating mechanism. (Panhard bar or watts link) this is what makes the Triangulated bar set up so good. No lateral axle locating system is needed. You can find images on the Internet of rock crawlers with the rear axle 90° from the front axle. So crazy!

[@routefortysix]

Very well explained... I really appreciate the way you explain.. Thank you..

[@GarageFab]

Thank you my man!

[@perfectworldpat7053]

LOVE ALL THESE VIDS!! CAN'T WAIT UNTIL YOUR BACK. THANKS

[@bostonbikebits6539]

Brilliant video, much appreciated. I am just about to start a 1950 Ford Prefect project, this vid has helped me decide on the triangulated 4 bar for my rear end - a shortened Volvo 244 live axle.

[@GarageFab]

Thank you my friend! I was not familiar with the Volvo axle before today. I had to do some looking. Does it have a factory watts link installed? You may already know this, but if you have a watts link, a triangulated 4 link isn’t needed. And conversely if you have a triangulated 4 link, a watts link isn’t needed. Either way, I’m excited to see what you build! I haven’t seen a whole lot of Prefects rolling around. (Ok I haven’t seen any) The more rare the better! Cheers!

[@bostonbikebits6539]

@@GarageFab The axle has no Watts link on it - it's just a bare , straight axle at the moment.

[@JonathanWhoever]

Those Mighty Max were cool

[@GarageFab]

My favorite. ❤️

[@edsilvester]

Absolutely brilliant. Exactly what I needed to learn. Thanks!

[@bobhalstead1879]

Love your show it shares great knowledge.easy to understand

[@GarageFab]

Thank you, Bob!

[@rockhpr]

Thanks for keeping it simple and short. I loose interest after :15 minutes of most videos. Great job.

[@GarageFab]

Thank you my friend! I appreciate your appreciation. It takes more effort to shorten a video than it does to film it. Ugh 😩

[@littlereptilian7580]

Amazing. Your channel is going to explode

[@GarageFab]

Here’s to hoping my friend! Thank you for the kind words. You are appreciated. 🙌

[@Brhennes]

Really great video! I have a question about the triangulated 4 link. Does the angle of the bushing on the triangulated link bars affect anything? For example, sometimes the bushings are parallel to the axle (so the bolt going through the bushing would be parallel to the axle) and where the link bar meets the bushing there is an angle. Sometimes I see setups where the bushings are perpenducular to the link bar (so the bolt going through the bushing is perpendicular to the bar) and the bushing is at an angle compared to the axle. Not sure if that makes sense or not. But I was wondering if there is a difference between these setups?

[@GarageFab]

Hey Brad! It absolutely makes sense. You worded it perfectly. Also this is a topic I am constantly debating with people! First let’s start with the fact that polyurethane bushing material doesn’t like excessive deflection.(compression, stretching, twisting, etc.) Too much and they split, or smash and don’t rebound, or they get soft. Poly bushings are intended to rotate around the bolt like a hinge. When you mount angled bar bushings so that they are parallel to the axle, the bushings will rotate around the axis’ that pass through the bolts as the suspension cycles. When you mount them perpendicular to the bars, these axis’ don’t change, but because the bushings are angled the axis’ pass diagonally through the bushings. As the suspension cycles on this style, the bushings are seeing unnatural deflection. In essence, the bushings are being pulled to the side. This is acceptable on static height suspension vehicles. If setup properly, the bushings will be at rest at half travel. Poly bushings will last longest of they’re pushed and pulled on straight. (The way they would be if the bars were straight.) So this is the ideal setup for static height triangulated 4 links. Bushings perpendicular to the bars. Here’s where my opinion comes in. When you slap air suspension on something you now have double or triple the amount of suspension travel, upwards of 12 inches. Even when set up properly, (bushings at rest at half travel) this is pushing the poly bushings sideways far beyond their intended deflection. By mounting the bushings to the angled bars so that they are parallel to the axle, their movement is natural except when the body is leaning. This is how I believe a bagged/juice triangulated 4 link should be set up, and so this is how I build them. Just know that this design will cause much more force on the flanges of the bushings as the weight of the vehicle shifts to the side on turns. Bushings are not designed for this either, however from my experience they last much longer than their over-deflected cousins. This was long winded. Hope it made sense. If you need clarification, lemme know. Cheers!

[@chriscoulthard4947]

Is this why you are moving away from the 4 link design that is on the truck from the previous owner?

[@GarageFab]

I’m so proud right now, Chris. 😃 That is the exact reason I switched. I could have just changed the upper bushings to suit my preferences but I wanted more content for the channel. Another reason I felt a switch was needed was the original builder made the upper links adjustable (threaded) but didn’t install any Heim joints. This caused the bushings to continually loosen the jam nut.

[@yodad4776]

Yup your saying it right and your awesome .. excellent content as usual keep up the best suspension channel on the internet PERIOD !!!

[@GarageFab]

Thank you my friend. 🙏

[@BrutusMayhem567]

Dude !!! What a fantastic video!!! Im building a rat rod right now and I'm building the frame from scratch and was wondering what type of rear suspension to go with. I bought a book called chassis engineering and I still didn't understand it as well as your explanations in this video. Thank you !!

[@GarageFab]

Nice! Did you decide what design you’re going to go with? If you’ve got questions, you know where to find me. 👊

[@BrutusMayhem567]

@@GarageFab yes!! With your help I've decided to go with the watts link and the parallel link to go with my air bags. I'm building a rat rod out of a 39 ford and built my own frame. I'll be doing the suicide front suspension too. That's the next thing I have to figure out. Do you have any videos on that topic ?

[@GarageFab]

Not only do I not have videos, I’m not familiar with Suicide front suspension. (Or at least the terminology) I’ll be looking into it though!

[@BrutusMayhem567]

@@GarageFab the suicide front end has one leaf spring going from side to side with the parallel bars on each side.

[@bigfun4212]

Well done on the mini examples and explanations. I am happy KZbin steered me your way. Keep it up! SUBSCRIBED.

[@GarageFab]

Thank you my friend! I am also grateful. I plan to create a model for the front suspension as well since I have a feeling my current model will be too small to accurately show anything of value. Hope to see you there! 🍻

[@vettsmoker2000]

Amazing video. I ha e searched countless hours trying to learn about suspensions for pro- touring and Autocross trying to decide the. Best style of suspension to run and I've been spinning my wheels before finding ur videos. I have seen some pro-touring built chassis with torque arms. I'm running a 2dr 01 Blazer. Which do u think would. E better for pro-touring? Torque arm, triangulated 4 link, 3 link, parallel 4 link? It would be cool to see you do a video explaining the difference between pros and cons of a Torque arm and triangulated 4 link and a 3 link. Thanks for everything you do. My new favorite channel

[@Apache-mb2nh]

I knew I was right! Nobody in my searches ever addresses what seems to be the norm in all triangulated kits, that the top bars are tooooo short ( even before considering the angle). Now I just need to find a kit with proper length bars.

[@GarageFab]

I imagine that’s probably a challenge. I’ve learned over the years that frame widths vary so much it would be pretty much impossible to create a universal Triangulated 4 link. As the angle of the bars change the length would need to change as well. It seems the only way to really get exactly what you need would be to make them yourself. 🤷‍♂️

[@Apache-mb2nh]

@@GarageFab Thanks and Great video productions! You make me laugh!

[@GarageFab]

Strange... I just got a comment notification from you but no comments could be found.🤔

[@johnheadley7650]

Great video! thank you! I have a pretty good background, you explained the intricate parts in a way that was easily understandable! The triangulated 4 link is the best rear setup! now I have to get busy!! I'm building an off road Jeep so I need more travel, hence the better geometry is even more important!

[@overlandready]

to effect a longer arm for most suspensions shunt the top section back, it has the efect of a longer top bar for most usual suspension travels, it does however place the pinion nose in an S formation of travel. Also for a more sturdy "triangulated 4 bar", just create a solid A frame and so the axle has a single pivot point (whether a ball or rose joint it makes no odds). In all cases the suspension will travel in a curve, it's physics of tying one end to a fixed point, because on a Watt's link there are 2 tied ends the curve is different above the medium and below it, so you will get a S shaped travel, it might not be very pronounced but it's goin to be there. It's good that you highlighted this but only effects in extreme upper and lower positions. The longer the centre pivot bar the more pronounced the S will be. All suspension setups have disadvantages, it's finding the one you can live with it's disadvantages or the disadvantages don't come into play on your amount of travel.

[@skyonedesignersplus1066]

Thank-you 🤜🏾/l am researching the link process for my chevy S-10 and the youtube(Al) brought me to this video--so this video reads over a year ago and l want to be careful in saying you just invited us to10 years worth of knowledge in a 12:36 setting. So not to possibly start a comment war...and that's not even close enough-l will be going back to the start of your videos and thanks again. When l actually do start my s-10 build the 4-link will be my choice 💥💯

[@GarageFab]

You are appreciated my man! I hope you find the videos helpful. Can’t wait to see what you build! 🙌

[@adibasmara]

You're such a good teacher

[@GarageFab]

Very much appreciated, Adib! 🙏 Thank you.

[@justinelliott293]

The model really helped me understand, great video

[@GarageFab]

Excellent! Thank you, Justin. 🙌

[@fyreryder]

Awesome. I have a triangulated 4 link setup but the triangle is anchored to the shopping cart handle at the centerpoint. I'm sure the theory is the same. Can you cover an anti-sway bar at some point. Awesome everything on these videos!

[@huseyindemiral6856]

I learn a lot from you technically and theoretically. Endless thanks you are awesome

[@GarageFab]

Thank you!! Your words are greatly appreciated. There’s more on the way. Soon I hope. 😉

[@warrenbennett1355]

A great help. I'm trying to build a rear end for a 1/25 scale nova. This was great especially the model to actually see close up

[@GarageFab]

That’s exciting to hear the info being used for something other than life sized vehicles. I’d love to see what you create! Hit me up on Instagram @GarageFab

[@stoem]

What a great series. I learned a ton.

[@GarageFab]

Thank you my friend. Happy to be of service.

[@calebmcandrews2903]

This is awesome I need the video of you doing this on your mighty max

[@GarageFab]

It’s in progress! Check out the Mighty Max playlist. So far the crossmember (“shopping cart handle”) and link bar tabs have been installed and the link bar making video is in production.

[@vannigiovannigio8861]

Dam superb job. Thank you professor. I know you had fun making that frame on a bench. Can't wait to see the front end.

[@GarageFab]

I did have fun with that! I was hoping to use that model for explaining front suspension as well but I worry it’s much too small. Not sure I have the time for microscopic sculpting of control arms. Thank you! I appreciate you.

[@vannigiovannigio8861]

@@GarageFab It takes a special type of person to want to go way out of their way and take up amounts of their time in attempt to educate others.

[@GarageFab]

I imagine there’s some selfishness in there somewhere. If I wasn’t having fun, I wouldn’t do it. Thank you, my friend. I greatly appreciate your kind words. 🍻

[@vannigiovannigio8861]

@@GarageFab str8 up.

[@mikecondoluci53]

GREAT VIDEO LOVE THE SOUND EFFECTS

[@GarageFab]

Thank you, Mike! I had to rewatch to see what you were talking about. 😂

[@RoadsterLoverMedia]

I'm running through the basics play list and hope you address why you chose what you did over what was already in the truck.

[@GarageFab]

I’d love to explain. What specifically are you referring to?

[@joell439]

👍👍😎👍👍 - you make it easy to keep moving forward. This episode helped clarify a few things for me. Thank you

[@GarageFab]

Much appreciated man! 🍻

[@frankpiazza953]

Great instructional videos. Well done, but I have questionS; I’m restoring a ‘53 International Harvester panel truck which we discussed in the past and I'm considering

[@GarageFab]

Sorry, Frank. You’re breaking up…

[@mazcatii]

I'm building an 84 Rx7 for circuit events and want to put a panhard bar in place of the factory watts link. I've fitted a Toyota hilux diff with custom 4 link and won't be adjusting ride height on the final setup. Could you please do a tutorial on the best way to attach the heim joint to the diff? The body mount should be pretty straight forward. Glad I found your channel, great content. Thanks mate.

[@GarageFab]

I likely won’t be making a video on the topic since I don’t see anything in my list of future projects that will require a panhard bar… But, I’d be more than happy to try and walk you through it, or at least present you with some ideas. Have you got an Instagram account? Send me some images of what you’re working with to @GarageFab. I can send you back some images of panhard bars that are currently in the shop.

[@mazcatii]

@@GarageFab cheers for the feedback. I'll see if my wife can help me with the instagram message as I don't have it.

[@bobbyshaftoe]

What a fantastic vid/series. Great job.

[@Dono.N]

When I swapped from stock 4-link on my 94 ram cummins to radius arms on the front suspension. I did one side at a time and when I did it I adjusted the radius arm to match the angle maintained by the side that still had the 4 link installed. The angle was perfect and then did the same thing when changing the second side. I think it would work for installing the 4 link if you can maintain one side at a time, or at least get your angles before you disassemble.

[@Lornearmitstead-ix6sd]

Very good job explaining

[@ronozeri7088]

just wondering how all of these would articulate, how these would function when one wheel is higher then the other with the frame level, thank you for this amazing video

[@markahaveman4495]

Just found your video, awesome,and very informative. My question is,axle link bar placement and frame crossmember placement. 30deg or 45deg? And link bar length difference? Like 70% longer lower bar? I'm linking up my 68 fairlane fastback.

[@GarageFab]

Hey mark! Thank you! You are very much appreciated. 🙏 Tell me a little about your plans. What type of suspension? Parallel 4 link or Triangulated 4 link? Static or adjustable height? What do you plan to do with your Fairlane? Race it? Just cruise the streets? Things vary a LOT with different types of suspensions and uses. Things also change from car to car because physics change. I can try and steer you in the right direction but I’m not sure how specific I can be. But I’m happy to try!

[@jaygee9249]

Thanks for explaining that, keep them coming

[@GarageFab]

Thank you, Jay! There's a few more on the way.

[@chriswillsch9226]

Awesome so informational I'm grateful for you educating me on this I think you saved me from making a huge mistake on my C10

[@GarageFab]

Thank you Chris! I’m dying to know what that “huge mistake” might have been. 😂

[@sabadabigarage1595]

Can you explain the triangle four link. Question isn’t there a maximum swing angle it permits since the higher or lower it swings away the distance wants to increase thus limiting the swing angle. Please explain

[@GarageFab]

Sorry my friend, I’m not fully understanding the question. Mostly I’m not clear on what you mean by the increasing distance during the swing. The most common way triangulated setups are created causes the bushings to deflect unnaturally. I design mine differently for that reason. Could you try and clarify? Cheers!

[@sabadabigarage1595]

@@GarageFab The upper link bars are at an angle with the axis of the bushings per link bar being parallel Therefore if one has to disconnect a link bar on the axle side and leave the other end mounted to the frame. The trajectory of the link bar let’s say at horizontal too vertical would cause the distance of the link bar to go further away from the centerline of the vehicle as the link bar on the axle end moves upward. Imagine this happening on both sides The link bar on the left will want to pull the axle to the left and vice versa for the link bar on the right So to me there should be a permissible limit that is allowed that won’t rip off the mounts or bend the link bars. Unless I am getting this 100 % wrong The Toyota kp60 has a setup link that and many other videos on KZbin with the triangular 4 link I hope I didnt make it worse

[@eliverstonadams4]

I use all your tech to build killer model truck frames .for my builds I've built the 4 link 3link bar the watts link also looks killer at model car contest

[@GarageFab]

That’s amazing! I’ve never considered using this stuff on anything but real trucks. I’d love to see your work. Ever considered building models for commission? I bought two Dodge D50 models a few years ago with the intent to cut the cabs in half and bond them together to make a wider truck. (The same way I did my real D50) I don’t know how to do plastic work though!

[@Thatdavemarsh]

Fantastic model!

[@GarageFab]

Thank you Dave! Glad you enjoyed.

[@0lddragracer426]

What do you do about all the welding on the rear-end housing, which must cause some warping? That would make a good video.

[@cjg1482]

I just found your channel. You do a great job of explaining suspension. I’ve only watched 2 videos so far.

[@GarageFab]

Thank you, Chris! There will be many more to come. Cheers!!

[@cjg1482]

I’m rebuilding the suspension on my 4runner (off-roader). I’m doing a solid axle front axle swap and 3 link with a panhard. I will eventually revamp the rear suspension and make it a 3 link with a panhard too. Pinion angle and anti-squat and anti/dive are huge concerns.

[@GarageFab]

Sounds like a cool project! I’d like to see the front axle when you’re done. I work on Toyotas all day every day and have never seen a front solid axle 4 runner. 😳

[@cjg1482]

@@GarageFab I don’t know how to send you a private message. I can send you some pictures of my progress.

[@GarageFab]

Hit me up on Instagram @GarageFab!

[@barryargent1830]

Great video, very informative

[@GarageFab]

Thank you, Barry! You are appreciated. 🙏

[@UconventionalWarrior]

Hello algorithm, this man here! He's the on that's supposed to be on the front page!

[@GarageFab]

Haha! I don’t know who this “Al” guy everyone is praying to. I don’t think he exists. But heck, keep me in your prayers! 🙌

[@MONTESGERAR]

Great instructional video

[@GarageFab]

Much appreciated! Hope it comes in handy.

[@rashlaninburhan]

Super informational explanation. Do rear link have to match the front links in length or can front be shorter because of lack of space. I already build rear links the length of upper and lower is same length about 1 meter.

[@GarageFab]

Glad you enjoyed my friend! Front links won’t have anything to do with the rears. In general, the longer the better, within reason. Longer bars will minimize the amount an axle moves forward and back as the suspension moves, but link bars also need to play nicely with drive shafts. The closer the link bars are in length to the drive shaft, the less the driveshaft has to move (via the slip yoke) 4 wheel drive trucks will usually have a shorter front drive shaft so shorter Link bars would be expected. Hopefully this makes sense. If not, I have a video planned that I’ll call “Third Links” that will talk about the relationship between Suspension components and non suspension components like drive shafts, CV axles, steering Tie Rods etc.

[@pamdunn8454]

with a triangulated "four link" do the top links have to meet together ? and in your example the links meet together at the diff center , can it be opposite that the links are far apart on the diff and meet on the shopping cart handle inboard "but not together ? narrowed rear say: 30 inch diff and 20 inch at mount point ?

[@GarageFab]

You basically described the Ford Mustang. The angled bars do not need to meet. (or even be close) What matters more is the angle of the bars. The closer the bars get to parallel with the frame, the less stable the axle will become left-to-right. I often recommend positioning the bars at no less than 30° from the frame rails, unless you plan to use stiff bushings and/or a panhard bar/watts link. The triangle can also be reversed as you mentioned with the front bushings closer together. Most people won’t notice any change in handling but professional drivers might. The imaginary place where the angled bars would intersect is the roll center for the rear suspension. (The point that the chassis rotates as the body leans in turns.) By putting this point further forward you’re changing the roll axis of the vehicle. If you would like that to make more sense, I highly suggest researching “roll center” and “roll axis”, but as mentioned, the average driver wouldn’t be able to tell the difference.

[@pamdunn8454]

wow , you are blissed with incredible knowledge - amazing that you take the time to answer with such complete information "hats off" or sharing , thank you

[@GarageFab]

My pleasure my friend. I’m happy to be of service.

[@AndrewWilliams-vg5lg]

I've been watching your link geometry videos so far and I love them! Thank you so much! My only question is what determines the length of the lower link to start basing everything else off of? Maybe you'll discuss this in a future video?

[@GarageFab]

Thank you, Andrew! I do plan on including that in one of the next couple videos right after we weld link bar tabs onto the crossmember. In my process, the link bars are made to fit your vehicle so you won’t know the lengths until just before you need to install them. My process goes a little like this: One of the first things you need to do when starting the rear suspension, even before taking the factory suspension out, is mark the frame where the rear axle is positioned. This mark should be pretty close to center in the wheel opening. Later you can determine if this mark is where the wheel will be positioned at ride height or when it’s laying on the pavement. (Personal preference) Second thing is building the front crossmember where the link bar tabs will be. Ideally, on adjustable suspension, the goal is to make the link bars as close to the length of the drive shaft as possible. Usually the best we can do is just make them as long as we can by putting the crossmember directly behind the cab. There will be a video explaining why soon as well. Third step is welding link bar tabs to the cross member. Now if you position your axle where you want it, you can determine the length of the link bars by measuring the distance from the holes in the front link bar tabs to center of the axle. Once link bars are made to that measurement. Only then can you put the bars in place and create link bar tabs for the axle. Hope this helps. Explaining clearly in text is much harder than video.

[@AndrewWilliams-vg5lg]

@@GarageFab I'm actually building an offroad application, so minor differences here and there haha, but everything you've explained so far and in this response as well has been a HUGE help. I'm following along perfect so your explanations have been great. So basically I'm gathering lower link length should IDEALLY be equal length to the driveshaft (which makes sense for plunge and pinion angle), although typically we can only make them as long as practical per project platform. Us offroad guys typically mount the lowers to the outside of the frame rails and somewhere under the cab, so it sounds like I should make the links as long as possible without hitting the cab at full bump, while keeping in mind the geometry for pinion angle to decide upper link length, and may have to shorten up lower link length for optimal geometry. Looking forward to following videos! Really enjoying the wealth of knowledge.

[@GarageFab]

It sounds like you understand perfectly. Luckily most drive shafts have a slip yoke, so matching the link length to the drive shaft isn’t mandatory but it’s still a good thing to keep in mind especially if you expect a lot of travel. Over-look this tidbit and you might find yourself ramming the drive shaft into the trans or pulling the drive shaft out. Both would suck. Keep in mind that there’s a lot of important info you likely won’t get on my channel since most of my knowledge is rooted in air suspension. Things like instant center go out the window when you install parallel bars which may or may not be important in off-road scenarios. Make sure you talk to folks with more knowledge than me in that department.

[@CheeHooGarage]

speaking of the triangulated 4 link that came on your mighty max, the upper axis' aren't on the same plane. Does it still work like a parallel 4 link? You kind of mentioned the position of bushings at the end of the link bars at 10:11

[@GarageFab]

The angle of the bushings does not affect how the triangulated 4 link operates overall. The old version, though I disagreed with the design, still had proper geometry and therefore operated just like a parallel 4 link. This was achieved by ensuring that the distance between the front and rear axis’ of the angled upper bars was the same as the length of the lower bars. The “problem” with angling the bushings is that the axis the bars are forced to rotate around doesn’t change, so the axis is now passing through the bushings diagonally. (Problem is in parentheses, because it is my opinion) This is completely fine on static height (non adjustable) suspensions. It’s been done for decades without problem. I feel it’s a terrible idea on vehicles with lots of trave The bushings are tweaked so badly at the extremes of travel and even worse if the bushings aren’t designed to be at rest at half travel. This has made me realize this should be a video. I’m gonna start working on that immediately! Cheers!

[@CheeHooGarage]

@@GarageFab Thanks for clearing that up. That's what I was thinking per your suspension basics series but wasn't 100% sure. So if the upper bushings were on the same plane as the lowers, no binding! I've been waiting on the follow up vid for 3 years lol. Keep doing what you're doing man, almost gonna get that 100k plaque 🤙

[@GarageFab]

Still growing daily, but things certainly pick up when I post more often. 😉 Thanks for being one of the regulars my friend!

[@MarlonBelcher]

Can you explain more on the upper and lower axis for the triangulated 4 link on how to figure that. I’m about to build one on a 50 ford with airbags. Thanks any help is appreciated love your videos.

[@WillMaynard3]

Do you need to have a pan hard bar or watts link with with a wishbone upper link setup?

[@GarageFab]

The wishbone itself is what keeps the axle centered under the bed with that setup. So there is no need for a panhard bar or any other lateral axle locator. In fact a panhard bar would only cause problems. That’s because a wishbone link moves the axle straight up and down and the panhard bar pushes the axle side to side on an arc. So the two systems would actually fight each other. Cheers!

[@WillMaynard3]

@@GarageFab Thank you for the quick response brother one more question is can I offset my the two top links to the right on top of me axel to get around my tank?

[@GarageFab]

Anytime my man! Here’s the deal assuming you’re still talking about the wishbone. The roll center of the rear of this vehicle will be wherever the single bushing of the wishbone will be. (The roll center is the point on which the vehicle body will rotate around as the body rolls in a turn.) If that bushing is off center, your roll center will be off center. On a typical NON race street vehicle, this probably wouldn’t be much of an issue. When racing the vehicle would handle very different in right turns vs. left turns. You can still offset the wishbone itself though. You could have the entire assembly mounted on the opposite side of the gas tank and still mount the single bushing on top of the diff which would basically center your roll center. Not sure how much sense all this makes without illustrations. 🤷‍♂️

[@jakefriesenjake]

Great channel. Quick question. I installed a ladder bar racing rear suspension like 16 years ago in a Camaro. I followed the manufacturers instructions, but that was when I was only going to use the car for drag racing, and didn't really understand pinion angles, and matching angles, u-joint angles and all of that, except for in a drag racing setup. I installed the front rod end of the ladder bar assembly in the middle hole of the frame before I welded the brackets to the axle, so I would be able to adjust it either way, if I needed to. Fast forward to today. The Camaro is a low rider, street cruiser with rear tires around 29" tall. I adjusted the ladder bar all the way up to give it the most pinion angle possible, to match the angle of the front u-joint (pinion nut /u-joint higher), but I'm shy at around 0.8° Is this a cause of concern? Here are my measurements ; Engine/Trans = 2° angled down from level Drive shaft = 3° angled up from level Pinion = 1.2° angled up from level. (u-joint side is higher) My front u-joint sees 5° angle and the rear sees 4.2° I think I want to see 2° up for the pinion angle, to match the front angle. I'm getting a custom stronger drive shaft made up this week. Is there an easy mod to make on the ladder bar itself (like cut and reweld) to give me an extra 1 or 2° to get me back into the proper range of adjustment? This is a pic of what the ladder bar and bracket roughly looks like ; www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/proxy.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fweb.ivenue.com%2Fautoweld%2Fimages%2Fnostalgia5b.jpg&hash=4647cc0a524a9b064f32d33f3ba35cc5 I'm not about to cut off the axle bracket and rotate the axle, and reweld new brackets on. I might be inclined to rework the ladder bars themselves though. Any suggestions on how to get 1 or 2° more out of them?

[@GarageFab]

Sorry for the delayed reply. I’m having trouble keeping up lately. Quick answer: Let’s start by saying, if you’re not feeling any vibrations, leave it be! Your angle alignment is quite good. You are correct, 2° for both the trans and the differential would be perfect, but your current measurements are the next best thing. Pointing your diff down slightly is great if you decide to romp on it once and a while. I don’t know what type of ends are on your ladder bars, but if they’re rubber or polyurethane, you can expect them to deflect a little on acceleration causing the pinion angle to move closer to proper alignment. Luckily there’s a margin for error with drive shafts. I usually recommend matching angles within 1.5° in street vehicles, (preferably with the diff down) but I’ve seen worse alignment with no signs of damage or vibration. So I think your .8° difference is better than good. If you really want to adjust to “perfect”, does your ladder bars have the adjustments near the axle that the one in the link has? That’s your answer. If it doesn’t it wouldn’t be too hard to install adjustments. But remember, if your angles are perfect at rest, the diff may rise away from perfect under acceleration, which is when alignment matters more.

[@jakefriesenjake]

@@GarageFab thanks for the response. Yeah my bars are like the picture. Solid rod ends. I just had a new drive shaft made and installed it. Have not tested it yet tho. Your right, the pinion will want to climb the ring gear, rotating it probably perfect. I maxed out my adjustments already. I will test it out soon. I only had a very minor vibe, hope it was from the old shaft. Thanks again

[@MotoDeSoto]

Good explanation! Subscribed.

[@GarageFab]

Welcome! Happy to have you. See you in the next one!

[@dirkeggink1799]

great explanation!

[@GarageFab]

Happy to be of service my friend!

[@TheJoedaddy831]

Excellent! I think. Your little model set up in the last configuration i believe is what i am looking for. I have a 2016 yukon that i am going to lift. I want to keep the bottom links straight and possibly longer if needed. The uppers i want to triangulate. Do away with the panhard bar. Thank you sir

[@GarageFab]

Nice! Best of luck my friend. Lemme know how it works for you!

[@288gto7]

Amazing video , but im confused by one thing. When you said with panhard bar you want to keep the bar level with the ground if you have static ride height vehicle so the arc effect of panhard bar is lessened. But Why are most oem panhard bars not setup like that? For example FIAT 131 has panhard rod at the back and during static ride height when car is sitting the panhard rod is angled upwards instead of being level with the ground. Whats the reason for oems going with that kind of panhard bar setup? Also another question , i ve read before that panhard bar exists because bushings deflect and if we have a race car with rose joints instead of bushings we dont need a panhard bar is that true? Kinda seemed wrong to me after you showed how suspension moves laterally when you werent using a panhard bar and also no bushings

[@Alllivesmatter24]

So can you do a video on the 97 Chevy Extreme. They have a unique setup and maybe you can explain how they work. I have a chassis like that that I’m swapping a 49 GMC onto. Cheers man, very informative thanks

[@tomhubbard353]

Excellent videos and yes I have watched several of yours, all great! Question: I am in the process of installing "bigger" axles in my Jeep TJ, I am "attempting" to use a high steer set up and well it's interfering with EVERYTHING LOL. I figured out a combination that works but I need to move my track bar up, forward and outboard on the axle side and forward on the frame side. What rules do I need to follow? Can I move the bar forward without issue? The drag link is almost perfectly level at ride height, I can fab brackets to nearly match it with the track bar. Moving the mounts/bar forward means away from the axle center in my case further away from the control arm brackets.

[@ronaldjohnson438]

Can you do a video on the wishbone suspension setup. And is it true that it can be used in High performance in a straight line (1/4 mile run, street racing)?

[@GarageFab]

I think it’s VERY commonly used in drag racing. I will certainly be doing a video but it might be a ways down the road. I’ll be building a suspension sample truck that can be equipped with every popular suspension setup and tested. I need more space before starting that project. In short, the wishbone suspension is nearly the same as the triangulated 4 link except in the wishbone, the angled bars are bonded together as one non-flexible unit.

[@alantreadwell5369]

Any idea when you will be covering front suspension stuff ?

[@GarageFab]

Very soon, Alan. I’ve got a few things to wrap up in the rear suspension and then I’ll be moving up front. It will basically be built from scratch. I’m guessing a few weeks from now.

[@jayinmi3706]

Well explained. Probably the best I've seen...but what about setups where the top bars go towards the rear of the vehicle? I've seen some weird setups over the years, and those are the ones that make the least sense to me.

[@GarageFab]

If you’re talking about lower bars extending forward and uppers the opposite direction, it’s totally ok that it doesn’t make sense to you. Because it doesn’t make sense! Even in a static height vehicle, the pinion angle will change so drastically and so rapidly it would destroy U joints like crazy with insane vibration. I usually try to be kind with my words but that setup is just stupid. 🤦🏻‍♂️ Thank you for the kind words!! Very much appreciated.

[@joemartino6976]

Nicely done.

[@GarageFab]

Thank you, Joe!