Light rail vs Streetcars

[@toddoddity3976]

Not to nitpick too much, but light rail is a class of vehicle and track (vs heavy rail). Streetcars, trams, and what you're calling light rail are ALL light rail.

[@toddoddity3976]

The ability to run in street, in private ROW, or totally grade-separated is what has made LRT so popular as a technology choice in recent years.

[@tomasbeltran04050]

very important correction

[@pbilk]

Yeah, North America seems to be allergic to the word, tram which I most cases is not a streetcar.

[@LouisChang-le7xo]

unfortunately light rail often gets built as streetcar

[@TheEpicDiamondMiner]

I wish light rail had the same ranking thing as BRT

[@mrxman581]

Then it's not light rail. The big distinction is whether the line shares the same ROW with cars. Then it's not a light rail. No dedicated ROW, not a light rail.

[@stickynorth]

​@@mrxman581 Yup. Even if its at grade and on a street it would qualify as long as it has an exclusive ROW... Edmonton had streetcars from 1908-1951, from 1978 until now it has light rail both high and low floor... But not "streetcars" except tourist seasonal lines at Fort Edmonton Park and the High Level Bridge... HUGE difference in both service patterns and rolling stock!

[@mystica-subs]

@@mrxman581 You can have combined dedicated-ROW / at-grade-with-traffic on the same system. Look at Denver's downtown sections that connect to mostly dedicated right-of-way along I-25 and Santa Fe Dr/Platte River as the D and H lines (still some level-crossings once they head south out of the CBD, but otherwise dedicated ROW)

[@kazeryu17]

​@mrxman581 In my city (Norfolk Virginia), the light rail trains run on tracks until the train gets downtown, where it runs on rails inbedded in the street. For the most part, it has its own right of way on the street, but there are a few spots where it shares a lane with cars. Once it gets through the core of downtown, your back on traditional train tracks.

[@theviolentunicorns]

Streetcars/trams only get stuck in traffic if infrastructure is designed poorly - if streetcars are given their own right of way (but still on a street) and priority at traffic lights and other intersections, like they are in many European cities like Amsterdam, streetcars can be much more effective than busses (and have a higher passenger capacity).

[@adrianthoroughgood1191]

Signal priority helps a lot, but if they are running in the street rather then beside the street they can still get stuck in traffic if there's a bad jam.

[@durece100]

Why not build an elevated or underground for the light rail?

[@adrianthoroughgood1191]

@@durece100 the cheapest place to build is on the ground. Underground is extremely expensive. Elevated is cheaper than that but much more expensive than in the ground. Elevated also gets opposed by people who think it's an eyesore.

[@durece100]

@@adrianthoroughgood1191 Elevated light rail will reduce traffic impact instead in the street.

[@adrianthoroughgood1191]

@@durece100 of course. But if the cost is double period mile and you have to choose between 20 miles on ground level line or 10 miles if elevated then you have to decide if it's worth it.

[@orangefish0297]

Both. I want both. Getting out of a lightrail station and then getting the last leg of my journey done on a street car sounds like heaven~

[@longiusaescius2537]

Nah, transfers would be better

[@mrxman581]

Yes, streetcars could work well for FLM transit because they have more stops close together.

[@apexhunter935]

Busses are better

[@mrxman581]

@apexhunter935 In some situations, yes, but in others, no. Busses also have much lower capacity than either LRT or heavy rail. Busses also require more maintenance and more personnel to run and maintain.

[@GirtonOramsay]

Portland OR is the city for you!

[@tonylarose4842]

Minneapolis/St Paul built light rail but for the majority of the lines within the city it acts like a streetcar with the downsides you mentioned

[@natanaeldamian2192]

Same in phoenix, the light rail gets stuck in traffic 😭

[@zacharyabelson8196]

It doesn't have to share lanes with cars it's just that it sometimes has to wait for red lights and people like to block it from leaving stations

[@mrxman581]

If it doesn't have a fully dedicated ROW, it's not a light rail. What you describe is a higher level streetcar.

[@mrxman581]

​@@natanaeldamian2192No dedicated ROW, especially in the more congested areas, not a light rail. It's nothing but a fancier streetcar.

[@qjtvaddict]

@@zacharyabelson8196still useless

[@heavenlyfather447]

One advantage of streetcars over buses is that they can run on electricity without batteries.

[@mrxman581]

There are buses that can do that, too. They've been around for decades. They're called trolly buses.

[@stickynorth]

@@mrxman581 And now battery electric buses too... Just not as comfortable as trams...

[@europe_trains]

@@mrxman581In Zurich, important bus lines are or will get electrified but with the goal of building tramways in the next 30 years after that. So trolley buses are an upgrade but as they still operate on streets and not on rails, they are less efficient (as steel on steel creates less friction).

[@PennsylvaniaEAS]

Trolleybus Superior to battery electric

[@RaymondHng]

Streetcars and trolleybuses run on overhead electric wires.

[@europe_trains]

I live in Zurich and I am not a huge fan of light rail. Streetcars are cheap and they do the job of getting extra capacity quite good. If needed, you can build street cars as light rail quite easily. This is what Zurich did with its first tramway tunnel and will continue with more tunnels. But in Zurich we don’t build them in the city centre but in regions where capacity is needed and no heavy rail serves it. Wich brings me to the reason I don’t like light rail: Light rail is operating streetcar vehicles on rails that could have been heavy rail with a small increase of costs, providing much faster transit and trains with more capacity (because you won’t build a cab every 20m like it’s done with light rail vehicles).

[@m31tdown]

I agree from a Melbourne perspective. We have the biggest tram network in the world and we kept our legacy network, which saves us the trouble of having to build a new network

[@nswtrains3153]

I live near Sydney and want to address that Light rail can go on streets and it's called a 'Tram' even if it's on streets, why is it a 'Streetcar' here? Is this incorrect or is it American?

[@longiusaescius2537]

Exactly Swissbro, it's pointless

[@adrianthoroughgood1191]

​@@nswtrains3153street car is the American name for tram. But they used to have a lot of short single carriage street cars so the term carriers a certain implication of low capacity.

[@kjhuang]

@@europe_trains I'm not sure how "small" that "small increase" going from light rail to heavy rail would be. In the US most cities have opted for light rail precisely because, unfairly or not, they view heavy rail/rapid transit as being too expensive. Of course personally I prefer heavy rail.

[@Railenroute]

I think most light rail in the US should just be an actual metro, something like the Vancouver skytrain could probably do some good. Light rail is generally slower and has less capacity. Doesn't make sense for such large cities like Seattle and Vancouver imo.

[@slendii366]

I love trams/streetcars. They’d be even better if they didn’t have to deal with the immense amount of drivers in Toronto.

[@chrismd00]

Street cars are wonderful and much easier to access. They are less dangerous to pedestrians and fit in the scene better than busses. Most busses pollute and most trams are electric

[@Rhys-x4e]

Basically trams or streetcars as Americans call them can run on the road and light rail includes trams as well as many metros

[@KyrilPG]

There's also modern European / French tramways, which have dedicated tracks, often green grassy tracks, fully low-floor and nice stations, but also do have crossings. They also usually are much better looking, and their supporting infrastructures, from low platforms and station sheds to catenary poles, are much more aesthetic. They greatly improve streets or, at least, fit nicely into beautiful locations and surroundings.

[@Geotpf]

Some very large light rail systems have some street running but are mostly separated from car traffic. For a good example, Los Angeles' large and growing system. Of their four light rail routes currently in operation, only the C Line is fully separated from the street grid. But all four are much too beefy to be called mere "streetcars", and are probably 70-80% separate.

[@djratcliff]

Same in San Diego 😎👍🏽

[@RaymondHng]

The Twin Peaks Tunnel and the Sunset Tunnel served as underground right-of-ways for San Francisco's PCC streetcars from 1918 to 1979. LRVs now run through those tunnels.

[@realquadmoo]

I just hate that here in Seattle so many people hate on us for building Link and everyone always thinks light rail = terrible capacity but that’s not true

[@europe_trains]

I mean, Seattle could have built heavy rail, providing faster transit, without paying much more, that’s what I don’t like about light rail.

[@realquadmoo]

@@europe_trains we’ve got same capacity as a heavy rail system we could’ve built, same speed trains, better accessibility and more modern safety features, don’t get caught up on the past But even if you do, just know that we were actually a lot closer to building a monorail network than a heavy rail network.

[@europe_trains]

@@realquadmoo Seattle was very near of building a metro in the around 1970 but they voted. The problem is how the US thinks heavy rail. The sounder is a good example but I think, to get examples for vehicles we should go to Germany. Imagine “DB Br 430” or “Munich U-Bahn type C”, vehicles running at 90mph. No useless cabs, you just need higher platforms.

[@jorgewu6225]

Agree, here in Canada the two light rail systems in Alberta have higher ridership than many heavy rail systems in the States. Kudo to Seattle for building something similar with high grade separation and not just laying tracks on roads like most North American light rails.

[@cobaltblue42]

@@realquadmoo Thank you so much, you are right on the money! It's worth noting the only portion of Link that is at-grade, through the Rainier Valley, was one of the first sections built, and it can definitely be upgraded / revised / bypassed in the future to be fully grade-separated like the rest of the system. Hopefully ST4 or 5 will address that section, otherwise the entire system really works beautifully. : )

[@MJC19]

Something that should have been noted is that Streetcars can reach were normal light rail cannot and vise versa in that light rail can go where streetcars normally don't, Interurbans are a hybrid of these concepts.

[@adrianthoroughgood1191]

In Sheffield the tram is mostly at ground level but has some viaducts to smooth out the hills and jump over some of the busier roads. Some of the ground level tracks are separated where there is space, running along the median or in a totally dedicated strip of ground. Some of the tracks run along the road in space shared with cars where there is not enough space to separate them. The signalling system uses "traffic style" signals by which I mean there is just stop and go with no block advanced warning yellow like you get on real trains. I'm not sure how strongly the trams have signal priority. I don't recall having to wait for cars to stop moving very much, but this is partly masked by the fact that a lot of stations are positioned next to junctions so the tram is waiting at the station to people can get on and off rather than just sitting waiting for the lights to change. I don't think it's fully prioritised like when an emergency vehicle gets all the lights to change in front if it so it can zoom straight through.

[@stickynorth]

Streetcars are fine as a local last mile connector, LRT is needed if you want rapid transit linking your city... Seattle has both and they are symbiotic in the areas in which they operate...

[@pbilk]

I think the rapid connection you are describing is a metro system which is typically elevated, seperated from the road and/or underground.

[@lance-biggums]

Street car is a kind of light rail. So is a European style tram, and even a metro-style train like the Frankfurt Ubahn.

[@aoilpe]

How comes , the old Docklands Light Railways (London) are now running for the Essen Streetcars (Germany)… Lightrail and streetcars are tramways/ trolleys imo Our tram network is at grade and fully separated from traffic. There’s a other category in this game : The TramTrain !

[@TysonIke]

I think the difference between streetcar and street-running is often forgotten.

[@pbilk]

I see streetcars as typically mixed with trafic and trams as most if not always on their own ROW with could be adjacent or in the middle of the road/street.

[@dhinton1]

Phoenix (as this video showed) has both ... and light-rail is better. the Phoenix public transit system only uses "street cars" in Tempe (around Arizona State University), and for good reason.

[@smythfamily8321]

Here in Portland, the light rail acts as streetcar downtown

[@DaDrummer98]

Same in San Diego

[@Ferreira0504]

Same in Sacramento

[@markmartindale7215]

Ditto Baltimore.

[@djratcliff]

​​​@@DaDrummer98The interesting thing about San Diego: although in the beginning it was very quaint because it was a new system of its kind in the US that they ran in the downtown dedicated street section. Then it runs in a separated row for 80% of the rest of the system. I read somewhere that they didn't want to put it underground because it had something to do with the proximity of the bay and type of soil downtown. Since then I've often read that the reason why San Diego don't have a underground Metro it's because of the soil here wouldn't sustain the vibrations etc from an underground metro. But now just a couple of months ago the MTS is talking about putting a fully underground or partially underground new line called the Purple Line from San Ysidro at the Mexican border (or near the Mexican border) up to Kearny Mesa what I think is something like 19 mi. I'm sure that won't happen in my lifetime but I would like to live long enough to see it and wonder why all of a sudden it's okay to do an underground rail line when they could have done it 30 /40 years ago 🤷🏽‍♂️

[@22pcirish]

We have a train-tram which can, and does, both things!

[@jorgewu6225]

Calgary and Edmonton learned it from Germany and now both have the most used LRTs in North America.

[@ryguy2006]

I like the hybrid approach in Minneapolis-- Dedicated RoW where there's room, running mixed with traffic in trickier areas.

[@pacificostudios]

Rail transit, whether LRT or streetcar, can operate well on reserved right-of-way. Much of Muni is on reserved right of way, and the all important A line in Los Angeles runs on reserved ROW down Flower and Washington.

[@artificial_S]

The difference is that one runs along with traffic and the other is separate. Daily reminder that buses are not trains

[@Seawiz21]

All the LR examples you showed get stuck in traffic and the two are kind of interchangeable. LR can operate in a streetcar capacity and vice versa

[@cararosiee]

We have lightrails here, Trimet. They've been having super annoying delays and issues for years now and I wonder if it's always been like that or this is just their new normal after covid.

[@stickynorth]

The only thing I hated about my visit to Portland was the speed of Max trains... It spent more time stopped at stations waiting for minutes than actually moving. Insane especially compared to Seattle's MEH LRT and Vancouver's best in the America's Skytrain...

[@jorgewu6225]

​@@stickynorthTriMet is older and still more extensive than both of our SkyTrain and Seattle's Link, but frequency and capacity really put a strain on the system.

[@Blaze6432]

The Tampa street car in the end is called the Trolley locally. It BARELY PASSES 15 MPH. Such a sad joke

[@mgescuro]

And then there’s San Francisco… The Metro is a streetcar, a light rail…. And a metro all in one. 😂

[@RaymondHng]

The Twin Peaks Tunnel and the Sunset Tunnel served as underground right-of-ways for San Francisco's PCC streetcars from 1918 to 1979. LRVs now run through those tunnels.

[@ryerob4815]

Baltimore has light rails but like others have said a ton of light rails drive within traffic too.

[@yiannisd8286]

Bro confused light rail for metro

[@geodavras]

And then there’s Phoenix valley metro that constantly interacts and competes w vehicular traffic at stop lights and intersections 😖

[@pbilk]

Then there are trams. They aren't streetcars most of the time but they also aren't always light rail either.

[@adambuesser6264]

How about trams vs trolleys?

[@thegreenguy5555]

I would say it's different words for the same thing. Although "trams" tend to have their own dedicated lane in the middle of the street. Trolleys I'd say are just how some cities in NA call their streetcar/tram/light rail network.

[@hewhohasnoidentity4377]

If only there was enough space to allow every mode of transportation a dedicated path with no at grade crossings. You could put a passenger train, a light rail, a street car or busses pr evem F250s, with no crossings and a dedicated path there would be no traffic.

[@dkeithtag]

… and then there’s the systems that have moth modes combined.

[@shreychaudhary4477]

so what's the difference between light rail and an "el train"?

[@whatever8282828]

I kind of disagree. Although it is true that "Light Rail" systems try to always have their own right of way, most of them occasionally are running across or indeed down roadways. There is hardly a distinction.

[@adrianthoroughgood1191]

It's definitely fuzzy around the edges. The Sheffield tram has a mix of street running and separated. Some light rail system are segregated but at ground level and have level crossings with barriers at the junctions. I think the main difference is how fast they are going and how short a distance they need to stop. A tram just has a stop signal and the driver sees it and breaks. A proper light rail system has a yellow advanced warning signal a block ahead of the stop so it can take time to slow down before having to stop. But you can only do that if you have barriers at the crossings so you can be reasonably sure a car isn't going to suddenly drive in front of the train. So tram = slow enough to stop like a normal road vehicle. Light rail = too fast to stop so keep out of the way. Some light rail systems even switch between these 2 modes in different sections where they are or are not segregated from road traffic.

[@JediTev]

VTA would like to differ with you, most of our lines are built in the middle of streets. We get stuck at traffic lights.

[@mrxman581]

As long as the line runs on a dedicated ROW, it's a light rail. Waiting at a traffic light is a choice the city is making to not give the light rail train signal prioritization. However, that's separate from how the line was physically built.

[@pletiplot]

Usually in bigger cities streetcars leave the streets and act as the light rail.

[@meckspeeder7047]

which one is Gothenburg Sweden? in certain parts, it works when the cars are driving, but it also has its own rail that is free from cars and other things

[@shadowcatderek]

San Diego mention!

[@baanaa6555]

As a European I think this video contains typical American stereotypes about "good" vs "wrong" type of public transport by rail type devices. I'm really curious why Americans are not examining other city rail systems as better examples than the way of "US thinking". I would like to recommend to examine, analyse for instance line U5 in Frankfurt am Main, and in general, the metro/sunway (u-bahn) and s-bahn (light rail) and streetcar (tram) systems in Europe for best practices, because USA is far away from flexible and environment friendly thinking and cost effective approaches to be frank. In Frankfurt am Main line U5 mixes 3 different type of rail systems. In the inner city, it is a subway in tunnel. A few kilometers later it is running on the street as streetcar together with cars in a pedestrian walking street. Later, it runs in the middle of traffic corridor separated from auto lanes as light rail, that is extended to the suburban area as suburban (interurban) rail. And it works perfectly. I think, such a way a thinking that we can see in this video, roots in stereotypes, missing informations and unknown best practices, and lack of creative approach to establish city rail system with highest cost benefit ratio.

[@Intrusive_Thought176]

@@baanaa6555 dude why can't you realize the us and europe are not the same? They aren't the exact same topographically or population wise?????. Seriously please do more research instead of go off a biased opinion Really embarrassing to see you talkig about how the US is far from cost effective and environmentally friendly approaches when they replaced old locomotives like the f59phi, f59phi, P42DC with siemens charger and EMD f125s which are tier 4 emission standards in socal. And please explain your reasoning for this working in the los angeles area and how it would be practical,cost effective and would anyone even use it? Its already known by many that cars are a more versatile way to go. People just too lazy to drive and impatient

[@stickynorth]

Streetcars aren't bad but they aren't the solution other than for downtown tourist circulars and tourist heritage lines... Most real cities need LRT, LRT, LRT!

[@nswtrains3153]

Light rail in Sydney goes on streets with right of way

[@InsaneNuYawka]

Streetcar>LightRail>Elevated>Subway

[@pbilk]

Light Rail = streetcar, tram, elevated, metro (above or underground).

[@MAL1GNANT]

Trams ARE actually better than buses. But they're useless on elevation.

[@qolspony]

Lightrail hardly run on their own right of way.

[@BorIlovar]

Unless you're in Portland, than light rail is not really much better than normal trams there

[@mif4731]

what about trams?

[@dysontyronetd]

Why not just call some of them TROLLEYS

[@Pizza16x]

Street cars ARE a form of light rail.

[@mrxman581]

No, it's not. Streetcars existed way before the first true light rail with a dedicated ROW was conceived of and built.

[@PenganB]

If you mean that they both use trams, then yes. Although on light rail-lines they're often coupled together for extra capacity.

[@jeffreyd2477]

Try riding the E line to Heath st on the T

[@mrxman581]

The determining distinction is whether the line has a fully dedicated ROW or not. If it doesn't, it's a streetcar.

[@kjhuang]

What qualifies as "fully dedicated ROW"? In Oakland's Jack London Square Amtrak trains run right on the same streets and same lanes that cars drive on. Is it fully dedicated ROW because there are gates that block off other vehicles while Amtrak trains are passing through?

[@mrxman581]

​​@@kjhuangAs is suggested in the name, a dedicated ROW is just that. It's dedicated to the train and no other vehicles. Sharing the street is fine, as long as you don't share the SAME PART of the street. In most cases, dedicated ROW LRTs have a small barrier to make it clear to other vehicles it's only for the train. Your example has nothing to do with LRT. Amtrak is a heavy rail train that many times share the ROW with freight trains.

[@kjhuang]

@@mrxman581 My example was only about the definition of "fully dedicated ROW". So I guess that stretch of Jack London Square wouldn't qualify, since cars can drive in those same lanes when the train is absent.

[@mrxman581]

@kjhuang Yes. I don't understand why cities do this. They end up making the train less efficient. Vehicles already have access to the vast majority of streets. Giving the LRT a fully dedicated ROW is not unreasonable. I'm not even talking about making it grade separated too, which would be best, just a fully dedicated ROW.

[@kjhuang]

@@mrxman581 Probably because they don't want to reduce car capacity for what would be a relatively infrequent train. I mean let's face it, most U.S. cities would be lucky to see 15 minute headways on their LRT systems.

[@falafelscobes6122]

How exciting

[@lukasoffen2420]

Just combine both...

[@lewismaxvaltteri]

muni is light rail but runs at grade

[@melbutterworth7976]

they are all just trams lol

[@climateandtransit]

Tram is a horribly outdated term used by e*rop*ans because they cannot tell the difference in service

[@mratp123]

No, just no. This is the American illusion. The word light-rail is used to somehow prove that the states should build rail transport systems. You can't make a better tram and rename it, it's just an upgraded tram. Light rail is a greenwashing term. Light rail is crap, honestly... Just build normal modern European trams... and call them so. Why is the US just so terrible at it, I will never get it. Calling something light rail is attention seeking, you have a term that's called tram-train, best examples are from Germany. But no, light-rail is not a tram-train, what is it? Can someone please tell me why is light rail a word, a thing, something to be proud of?

[@jasonsalinas3759]

Sj light rail do not get cleaned seems like

[@JediTev]

Are you talking about VTA light rail?

[@Commentator541]

Clueless. Come to Europe and see how many “street cars” have their own lanes on most of the of the roads or even go into tunnels, overpasses etc. 😂

[@qjtvaddict]

Light rail is useful lol streetcars aren’t

[@alexanderboulton2123]

They're what the Euros call "Tram-Trains"

[@bahnspotterEU]

No, tram-trains are different. Tram-trains run on main-line railways for part of their journey.