Lightening Piano Touch Weight on Studio Upright

[@adam.dampc-SMHC]

The problem of too heavy key weight has been pestering me for years, and here you go with a simple solution! A very helpful upload, indeed. Thank you most graciously. You totally rock and never listen to people who say otherwise!

[@profeluisegarcia]

Hello¡ Finally, after 40 years of thinking and asking about this problem, you have given us a very clear explanation and solution. Thank you very much, Luis Manizales (Colombia)

[@PianoTipping]

This is fascinating. I've been playing for a couple of years on a digital stage piano and just got a free upright to play with. Found this very helpful.

[@finnstyles]

Piano Tipping free upright?? Nice!

[@robydean7]

I have never seen weights used to actually view when the damper in fact begins its travel. That was cool. I just always eyeballed it and then use my guage to check that the distance is correct. Good video. Thanks.

[@Grandpurpose]

Hi Brady, the factory suggestion is 52 grams in the bass tapering to 48 grams in the treble. This can't always be accomplished but should be your target. Consistency from note to note is Key!

[@azrulawanghassim1553]

Kurt Weissman hello sir,, i need some help on my studio piano,, what is the perfect measurement distance hammer from string,,and letoff too..please

[@b1na276]

my piano is still hard to press, even if damper don't activate early.

[@TM-jo4wz]

Great Video. What’s first? Damper alignment when pressing pedal or adjusting spoons? Thanks

[@HopeHasWarriors]

Thank you for this explanation - it was extremely helpful to see it demonstrated with the weight and not just explained - thank you very much!!

[@alicelim9887]

Loved your explanation in this video. Mine sadly, has a touch weight of 170grams on the bass to 70grams on the treble. Which is extremely heavy and tiring to play. :(

[@northwest6148]

Be sure, its even better. Your skill will be better.

[@Grandpurpose]

Hello my friend Saverio, the hammer was moving properly, it may have been the angle that I was filming which made it look like that. The job turned out very well and my customer was very pleased. In addition to lightening the touch I also voiced the piano and made it more musical sounding. Its nice to hear from you and have a Merry Christmas. Kurt

[@IsaacOLEG]

damper springs are often not regulated, they can be weighted with a mass on a hook, or a gram gauge. massaged, Just we need to know the type of metal as some phosphor bronze harden after some time so they are left a bit too strong at first.(renner),

[@robviolin1]

good video. i have this problem of the keys being too hard to press down. thanks again.

[@robertporch5218]

I get the halfway point by making sure all the dampers lift at the same time first. Set datums (halfway points) at the extremes of each section of dampers. Remove action. Chock and fix with a solid wedge the point at which the damper lift rod holds the dampers exactly when the hammer moves when lifting the wippen. Each of the spoons can then be bent to match the datums whilst out of the piano. Much easier than removing keys to get at the spoons when IN the piano! I hope I've explained it well enough. Rob UK

[@shananarocks]

I understand we can add lead to make the keys heavier on an upright piano. Can you do a demonstration or suggest a better way to do it. Thanks.

[@Grandpurpose]

Thanks Villario, I’ve never been called enchanting before. Lol! I’m glad you liked it

[@stemart1641]

Gday Kurt. Nice video! After you establish where your first spoon should be, do you do the rest of the piano with the spoon bender and action in or remove the action & regulate the spoons by sight?

[@TM-jo4wz]

Great video. Damper alignment or spoon adjustment first?

[@supermagicfluffybill]

Hi Kurt. Is this the same theory / technique for a baby Grand? Thanks

[@valeriocadeddumezzanotte]

Enchanting explanation

[@Victor-ze3sd]

Thanks for this video. What is the name of that tool ? Aren't heavier keys often better to play softer music and low volumes ?

[@thomaslotito380]

Nice job, but can you show us how to bend all the spoons the same for a consistent touch in the piano? Spoon branding in uprights is one of the most difficult adjustments to make in the piano. Thank you.

[@Grandpurpose]

Spoon bending is not difficult at all. But then again I’ve done this many times in my 40 years restoring piano. I would suggest if you want more info you purchase a piano rebuilding book called Arthur Reblitz here’s the link: www.google.com/search?q=Piano+rebuilding+books&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-us&client=safari#imgrc=R4FstNAsFpHsiM:

[@TM-jo4wz]

Don Manino has a clear jig that he wedges between two points. I think the hammers. You can see the dampers move. I forgot how he does it. But once it’s set you can adjust all the spoons the same.

[@townnet]

Hi , normally how much the down weight grams will add without press pedal on upright and grand? I play baroque and classical music which didn't use pedal a lot.

[@afara2000]

Thanks Kurt. My piano has opposite problem ie it doesn't sustain some notes when playing. My tuner says it's risky to bend spoons due to its 100 years age. Wouldn't be better if I replace all damping felts or pads since they're very old and not functioning well? That might solve both issues without touching spoons.

[@edwardsnz]

Thank you for posting the video. About how long does a job like that take? I notice that you have the piano in your workshop. Thank you.

[@katiegrundle9900]

ALL this makes sense. mine highest 10 keys dont have dampers and the keys are very light. all the other keys are so heavy that i cant play trills. a tech is coming by this week

[@ThePianotunerman]

This does not work on a kimball console piano. The dampers on all that I’ve seen on these start moving immediately. I set one to a half and then a third and the dampers would not work at all when the action was back in the piano. Had to go back to the original point.

[@EdwinDPZ]

Is this why its a hassle on some pianos to play softly? It seems like you have to apply more force than usual to get it to play which makes playing softly harder.

[@o-segredo-do-meu-poder]

Very helpful Kurt!! Thanks... I have a question.. I've been searching and I can't find it: my keys needs a better response/return, it seems that doesn't have enough weight on the back of the key... how can I did that?

[@thomaslau9631]

My Bosendorfer bought in 1993 seems to have this issue: a feeling of a little heavier touch (may be> 4-5 g ) when 50 g is the optimum for example. Is it a choice that I ask a piano techician to do something lije this video to lighten the keys, I mean all 88 keys from bass to treble? Thanks.

[@saveriosalerno9232]

Dear Kurt, I was wondering why that hammer that you were moving in the video tended to travel right? would you please explain it to me and any rimeo THANK YOU in advance. Saverio

[@Grandpurpose]

Hi Dan, I’m glad the video was helpful. I have found that in some cases the pianos come from the manufacturer with a heavier touch. I think the reason is because they leave the damper springs very tight. This contributes to compressing the felt which in turn causes the damper to be activated too early when playing the piano. Normal regulation will not address this problem and in some cases will increase the problem when technicians take up the lost motion in the key. An experienced PTG technician will be able to bend your spoons so they activate the dampers later thus allowing a lighter touch when playing without the sustain pedal. Kind regards, Kurt Weissman [e-mail]

[@Grandpurpose]

Thanks for all your comments and interest. Please visit our facebook page at: facebook.com/grandpurpose. Your Great expectation is our Grand Purpose! Remember..... The Tuner Alone Preserves The Tone. 40 Yrs Restoring and Tuning Piano.

[@dannysound1]

Kurt Weissman, I took the action out and I see that my NEUMAN piano doesn't have spoons but screws, is there any method to lightening the keys with the screws? thanks

[@sooklee7916]

I have Yamaha U1 upright piano. Recently lighten the key 51g to 48g. Is it affect the sound? I hear less echo.

[@Grandpurpose]

Hi Lucky, are the dampers the problem or do you think it's something else?

I have a Roland Digital Piano and thought the touch weight is a bit heavy. So I measured it and it takes 77 grams to move the key halfway down until it reaches the (not existent) "hammer" and 111 grams to move it all the way down. That seems to be a LOT more than the recommended weight. It's too heavy for me :D It hinders me from playing pieces very fast.

[@Grandpurpose]

Abrissbirne 66 That seems like too much work. I’m sure you’re getting tired after playing for a while. I don’t know what to do with a digital keyboard, sorry. I’ll look into it. At least you know what to look for now.

Kurt Weissman, Grand Purpose Piano I wonder if I do something wrong during the measurement. Even my small keyboard with light plastic keys and no touch sensitivity needs about 60 grams. But I read that 60 grams is still considered heavy.

[@dylanmcqueen4656]

Hello Bro!! do zou solved it? My old clavinoca of the 90s is very very heavy , I tested this week an Yamaha CLP 725 it was very easy! and in an acoustic piano Yamaha the weight in C4 was 47 grams!! very light !

@@dylanmcqueen4656 I'm still in the same situation. I feel like most digital pianos which try to simulate a grand piano have heavy keys. I guess the only good solution is having an actual grand piano with light keys, but that's expensive😅

[@JeffreySaxophoneTallNewton]

HI Kurt - I just bought a Kawai digital piano - the MP7. The action feels slightly heavy, with a shallow key dip of 3/8". Do you inversely correlate touch weight and key dip? I assume these cdannot be changed on a digital piano, but I'd like to know the answer anyway. I'll measure the touch weights and post the results here. Thanks, Jeff

[@JeffreySaxophoneTallNewton]

High notes: 50 Middle C: 55 Low notes: 60

[@Grandpurpose]

Jeffrey Newton Hi Jeff, The digital pianos have come a long way for sure, but use a much different mechanism. I think your weight measurements are ok, maybe a little too heavy in the bass. I don't know how to change the weight on these instruments. Sorry! I'm glad that you're learning what weight is comfortable for you. Thats something you will want to take into consideration when your ready for something else.

[@JeffreySaxophoneTallNewton]

Kurt Weissman Thanks, Kurt! I did get a nice reply from Kawai itself regarding this issue, and they aim for 1 cm key dip, so my measurement there is a little off. They also hipped me to the concept of "dynamic" touch weight, which is germane to digital pianos. The gentleman who responded to me has an MP7 and the 9 foot Kawai acoustic from which it is sampled an emulated in his office, and he said that, if anything the touch weight on the MP7 is a little lighter. Thanks, Jeff

[@Grandpurpose]

Hi Audun, what sort of information are you interested in? Kurt

[@angelferreira5754]

Is there anyway to make the touch heavier?

[@northwest6148]

Probably yes, but google keep silence

[@bethechangeme2233]

There are no spoons on my 100 year old piano. Its in perfect working order and the action is in surprisingly good order but I just cannot find anywhere that this adjustment can be made. Any ideas?

[@Grandpurpose]

BetheChange Me What’s the name of the piano, is it an upright? Are you having weight problems. Curious, did you remove the action to see the back?

[@bethechangeme2233]

@@Grandpurpose Its a British made Monington & Weston made in London in 1911. I removed the action to be sure and there is definitely no spoon there, instead there is a long piece of stiff wire coming from the bottom of the action assembly that goes up about 10 inches where it connects to an elbow which is directly connected to the damper. The damper on weight is 86 grams and the damper off weight is 75 grams. I suspect given the high damper off weight I've got other problems as well, perhaps excess friction in the flanges?

[@bethechangeme2233]

@@Grandpurpose I forgot to mention that yes it is an upright.

[@Grandpurpose]

BetheChange Me I’m not familiar with this piano but there should be a way of making the damper activate later. It may be a screw adjustment. I’m sure with some close looking you’ll see. I also would lubricate the parts if they are sluggish. Friction can cause the action to play heavy. Send me a pic of the back of the action and send to [e-mail] Good luck and Happy Thanksgiving, Kurt

[@audunjemtland8287]

Do you have any dvd tutorials?

[@aguruattapiano]

really helpfull! thank you!

[@mfwint]

Kurt, thanks much for these excellent posts. What can you do make upright touch lighter even when the damper pedal is depressed? Mine is too heavy in both cases, and it seems spoon bending would only address touch weight with damper pedal inactive. It's a 23-yr old USA Baldwin and I'm considering upgrading to grand for lighter touch because it's kind of klunky on the pianissimo passages (think softest Moonlight Sonata first movement.) I've played some grands in the stores and they can be quite variable, but I played a Steinway B with featherlight touch. Oddly, the other Bs in the same store did not have featherlight touch and quite a bit of escapement knocking. Reportedly the technician spent about 8 hours to get that particular B ready for an in-store performance, but what could possibly have been done to a NEW and unsold piano to make such a dramatic difference?

[@Grandpurpose]

You also may want to see if the keys move freely. They may need to be eased or the balance rail hole may be a little tight. Lubricant can be used on the front and center rail pins. I use clear McLube from Pianoteksupply company. Also clean and lubricant the capstan screws with McLube. If these terms are not familiar then look them up on the web. Friction needs to be removed so parts move freely. These are some suggestions but there are many other ways as well. Of course this is a very lengthy lesson and one that cannot be taught in few words. All piano are different and require a different approach. Hopefully this has helped a little. Kurt

[@mfwint]

Yep, checked downweights (70-75g) and upweights (20-25g)...difference about 45-to-50 so looks like friction is the culprit. It's never been lubed, so I'll get the McLube. Thanks!

[@invidiamidnight8562]

Hello, Probably sounding like an idiot but wondering 1. Is this method used on every key in order to lighten the touch? 2. Can the tool you used be replaced by any common place items? Thank you

[@Grandpurpose]

Yes, every key should lift the damper at the 1/2 way point of the hammer travel. There are other ways of accomplishing this and one day I will get more in depth. Damper regulation does get involved as the piano ages. I've always used tools specific for this job. These tools are found at piano supply companies. Also PTG piano technician guild members in your area will be able to help you with this.

[@guillemclara]

Thanks

[@luckky2983]

My touch weigh is above 60 grams. It so heavy to play...

[@ShirleyKirsten]

Yes but often LEGATO is sacrificed in this maneuver.... No one wants to address.

[@harveyweizman]

Thank you for the vid. Question: what is the proper weight for the white and black keys of a grand piano in general ? not sound rude, but I just realized that your voice sounds just like Donald Trump.

[@Grandpurpose]

Hi Harvey, Love your name. :-) The weight is measured in grams. The general answer 52 grams in the bass tapered to 48 grams in the high treble. This weight is measured without the weight of the dampers, so you'll need to press and hold down the sustain pedal while measuring the down weight. The Key requires a certain amount of upweight as well. After depressing the key put 20 grams on the front of the key and see if it will lift this. If you have a heavy action like 60 grams or more, your working way too hard and will not enjoy playing the piano for long. This can be corrected with methods way beyond this video demonstration. Grandpurpose.com

[@harveyweizman]

Thank you for the quick reply. Why I asked this question. I am trying to design an extremely thin, small, and lightweight foldable 4-part midi keyboard; with 88 fully weighted keys. (it needs to seem/feel/respond fully weighted, without actually being fully weighted.) Thank you !

[@Grandpurpose]

I meant Valerio, Siri always misspells when I talk.

[@Grandpurpose]

: - )

[@leftenanalim]

He sounds like Donald Trump