What Dreams May Come, Part 2: The Sandman #21-40 - Atop the Fourth Wall

[@Canaanimal]

To me "The Game of You" always came across as a story about embracing your past and growing up as you move forward, mistakes and all. The Cuckoo representative of all the things she hated about herself, the things that she deemed evil through hindsight because she refused to acknowledge that her reality was through the lens of a child's understanding of the world. Her refusal to take responsibility for her own actions and decisions, though ultimately inconsequential in the greater scheme of the world, were affecting her life and thus the lives of the people around her negatively. The Tolkien-esque journey was her retracing the path she once walked as a child but this time finishing the quest. She had to grow up. Un-arrest her development. Process the pain and suffering she was refusing to feel. The big bad being a young version of herself, one made up of all the traits she despised, was a cruel mirror reflecting how she saw herself. She still saw herself as that little girl. Morpheus asking if acting as it's nature made it evil was to show her perspective. The cuckoo was no more evil than she was, nor anyone else there. It was it's own self, acting in accordance with what it knew and how it perceived the world. The way she perceived herself and the world. Hence why her Boon was used to send everyone home. Because to kill the cuckoo was no different than killing herself. And she couldn't do that. Not for religious reasons or something like that, but because she wanted to be more like her best friend Wanda. Wanda embodied a lot of what she wanted to be. 100% authentically herself. Brave. Happy. True. Wanda accepted herself for who she was. She didn't try to kill off who she used to be, instead she used it to grow into who she was. In my opinion this story was about self acceptance and Wanda. The Game of You meaning the way we approach life and the consequences of our actions. Such as dangerous magicks, cheating, anger, forgiveness, and bravery. The one person in this story, who stood as the beacon on the hill was Wanda. While the others feared the consequences of their futures, she embraced the chance to do better, to learn and grow. But I have to disagree on her death. Wanda died being a hero. She died protecting her best friend and trying to save a stranger. She was willing to face the apocalyptic storm that didn't differ too much from the storm she faced before when she lost her family. Wanda wasn't fridged or sacrificed. Wanda made her own decisions and took the road she felt was best. The way her family treated her after her death to the face of her best friend was a way of allowing the lessons to be put into practice. The transphobia and lies, the evil of man, being levied against their own flesh and blood, was again a cruel reflection of what could have been. They refused to change. They refused to empathize with Wanda, understand her, accept her happiness. But they weren't doing it passively. They vocalized it to those that knew and accepted Wanda. They were active in their judgement and hate. The act of writing Wanda's name in her favorite lipstick on her gravestone and the promise made to her, was the first act of true rebellion she made. She took a stand. She wasn't going to avoid the consequences, give up in the face of adversity, and wasn't going to let others be hurt any longer. Death allowing Wanda to say goodbye, letting her crossover as herself, showed her that it wasn't the end. Journey had to continue. But now, she was doing it for the both of them. To me it will always be a story about Wanda, self acceptance, empathizing, and learning to take the first step to standing up for what's right instead of being a passive observer. The length and sparceness represents the road of personal growth, not always easy or exciting, dangerous, and only upon reflection does the pathway make sense. Growing up is hard when you refuse to understand and forgive yourself for past mistakes. At least that's how it reads to me.

[@PaxtheDreamer]

I want to hang this comment on a wall. I love this.

[@eamonndeane587]

A message that especially resonates today in light of Numerous Transphobia Induced fatalities and conservative Anti Trans propaganda.

[@TevyaSmolka]

@@eamonndeane587 indeed

[@TransGirlMagic]

Was coming down to make this exact comment.

[@harmonicajay91]

That is beautiful.

[@mikegates8993]

Devil: Well, I'm retiring. Spider-Man: Does that mean I can have my marriage back? Devil: Nope. That staying gone was the one clause of my retirement.

[@kitestar]

Too true

[@ArcCaravan]

I just imagine Lucifer saying it's that other guy who holds his marriage, not them.

[@mikegates8993]

@@ArcCaravan And Peter complaining that the other guy told him to speak to him, after the last guy pointed him to that guy, in a chain of literally unholy bureaucracy for the entire weekend.

[@ericwhite1942]

Sounds legit

[@sebastianemond5313]

And even if The Devil acquiesces to give Mary Jane back, the cosmos will still conspire to keep her and Spider-Man apart, making Peter a cuckold to a random guy in an alternate dimension where time moves differently and him and MJ adopted two kids that don't even exist except to bring forth a murderous God by a maniacal fanatic from said alternate dimension.

[@DWP102589]

My favourite anecdote about Neil Gaiman (and of course it’s related to my favourite superhero Marvelman/Miracleman) is when Alan Moore offered him the job of continuing to write Miracleman and basically said: “Just FYI, by the end of my last issue, I’ll have solved all crime and wars, and made Miracleman the absolute ruler of a united utopian Earth where no new conflicts and stories can be told. Knowing that, I would totally get it if you decide to not do this.” To which Gaiman responded: “No, I’d love to!” Which is just a great testament to his creativity and willingness to push the boundaries of storytelling.

[@bluespaceman7937]

And now he is finally finishing this story.

[@PosthumanHeresy]

Weird Comic Book Wizard is my favorite gender.

[@manjiimortal]

One of my favourite bits on Seasons of Mist are the aforementioned pages describing The Endless, with details being given on their height, their smell, and the shadow their cast, for Desire, Despair, Destiny, Delirium and Dream. But then it's Death's turn, and she gets only one sentence, which is, nonetheless, as telling as each description given to her siblings: "And there is Death."

[@Hanmerhack]

In DC Who's Who on the info page for Death it just says "One day you will meet her for yourself."

[@TheUncomplicator]

Linkara hasn’t listen to the audiobook so I will just say that David tenants performers as Loki is some of the best screaming acting I have ever heard a Scotsman perform. It’s brilliant.

[@PaintSplashProductions]

Now I want him back for the Netflix series

[@adrianomoraes5992]

On the same audiobook Kat Dennings is the worst Death I ever heard in my whole life. She doesn't even create a character, so the whole time Death sounds like Darcy from the Thor movies. I don't get how Gaiman who was so careful to choose a perfect casting for Death, Kirby Howell-Baptiste, on the Sandman show let this one slide so bad. The rest of the casting is overall decent but I never expect the parts with Death would be the ones I would avoid. It is plainly terrible.

[@Vesperitis]

Michael Sheen has my absolute favorite performance ever as Lucifer. Which is ironic considering he plays a very nice angel in another Neil again an adaptation.

[@UltimateMovieMaster]

Some alternate interactions during Dream's attempts to get rid of hell 1. Dream: And what is you're offer Godzilla: SKREEONK!!! Dream: Certainly beats Kong's offer of a giant octopus and whatever the hell that red juice is 2. Dream: Why is it that you seek ownership of hell? Hellboy: I'm not offering to buy hell, I just need you to open it so I can get my wallet back

[@viraltang]

"And what do you wish Hell for young miss?" "I want to turn it into a hotel!" "That sounds fun."

[@kyriss12]

And what do you wish of hell green man? Loads shot gun aggressively “rip and tear until it is done”

[@leephillips4402]

And what would you like to do with Hell? I'm gonna trick four people into thinking they're in The Good Place, it's a foolproof plan.

[@fafaaf61]

"To destroy superman"...so funny you should mention that. One of the side materials to the Sandman reveals that Despair actually caused the destruction of Krypton specifically so that only one person would survive to despair at their lost planet. Also that Dream used to date the ancestor of the modern Gaurdians of the Universe.

[@redskared8093]

That's really interesting because as Destruction later explains, the Endless embody not just their names but their opposite. Death and life, Destruction and creation, Dream and reality etc. So Despair being involved with Superman's origin makes a lot of sense since he's a symbol of hope.

[@legomaniac213]

Unfortunately for that Despair, things backfired a bit. Because of who that survivor was and grew up to be, he created so much hope that it killed that version of Despair. Hence why we have the one we see in this comic.

[@redskared8093]

@@legomaniac213 is this in continuity or just a theory? Cause the first despair died thousands of years ago and was killed by some unnamed person as far I know.

[@MDoorpsy]

@@redskared8093 Fan theory. It is stated that whoever killed Despair suffered a terrible fate, but we never find out who they were or what exactly happened to them. If I were writing the lore, I would probably have their fate be to forever be trapped within Despair's realm, forever locked into a cycle of depression and self inflicted torture from which they can never escape.

[@michaelrodriguez1676]

Well, that's beyond fucked up. I didn't know Despair was that evil.

[@Caernath]

I'm sad that Linkara didn't mention my favourite quote of Eve: "Adam, either you put on some damn pants or this relationship is over!"

[@fafaaf61]

So fun fact: there is a certain pattern that lots of people don't realize when first reading the Sandman that's literally everywhere. The pattern is three women appearing in a group often following the maxim of "maiden, mother, crone". Like I said before this pattern is EVERYWHERE when reading the Sandman. The Three-In-One are the most obvious but there's more. There are three women in the 24 Hour diner that follow the pattern. When Dr. Destiny enters the dreaming he is greeted by three "oracles". Eve of the dreaming seems to shift between three forms that embody "maiden, mother, crone". It's readily apparent in "Game of You" that Foxglove and Hazel follow the pattern because Dream directly calls them "Little Maiden" and "Little Mother" respectively leaving Thessaly to be the Crone. You could even argue that lovers of Dream follow the pattern with Nada the maiden, Calliope the mother and Thessaly the Crone. There are even more subtle ways this is enforced: the appearance of Titania, based on the Roman Diana who is often said to embody this pattern. The apperance of Shakespeare who notably wrote Macbeth whose plot starts when Macbeth visits three witches (now remember how the plot of the Sandman starts with Dream visiting three witches...). Everywhere Dream goes, he is confronted by three women in this specific configuration. Of course this all ties to the Three-In-One. In fact it seems to imply that every single time that three women appear in fiction, especially following that pattern, they are in some sense aspects of the Three. They are interchangeably referred to as The Furies, the Fates, The Norns, The Hecate Sisters, Fortuna, etc. Moreover, all of these names are in some ways tied to the concept of Fate. What the Sandman is essentially saying as that this pattern of three women symbolizes fate and inevitability, especially when it comes to stories of which Dream is the king of. As Dream keeps encountering this pattern, it symbolizes him approaching his fate both from the perspective of the story and from the perspective of the in-universe characters.

[@manjiimortal]

Eve can also be counted among them, with the Unnamed Wife being the Maiden, because Adam never touched her, Lilith the Mother, because she became the Mother of Demons, and Eve the Crone, because she outlived Adam into old age.

[@Dragon_Moth]

I never had realised this, it makes a lot of sense

[@jacobg6628]

Ironic, since the same three mother/maiden/crone is a used in Terry Pratchett's books with his witches and he and Neil worked on Good Omens together.

[@nikolasmokalis3425]

Viga has been KILLING it with the thumbnails for these Sandman videos 🔥

[@manjiimortal]

Three Septembers and one January is one of my favourite Sandman issues, a great story on how the aspirations of dreams can keep despair, depression and madness away, and the story of Emperor Norton is all the more amazing due to being based on a real-life figure, with many of his greatest moments being pointed out in the story.

[@daelen.cclark]

It’s both educational, and fun.

[@adrianomoraes5992]

On the Bizarro thing, it was originally a Bizarro, but Karen Berger the editor of Vertigo told him to not use because they were trying to keep Vertigo separated from the DC superheroes so Gaiman turned into Weirdzo. The Bizarro reference left was an oversight.

[@alexpage10]

I can confirm that. I am reading a new printing of the issue and they always say Weirdzo

[@psychotroniccity]

After retiring, Lucifer changed his name and relocated to England, where he became a musician. His first few records didn't really find an audience, but I've got a good feeling about this "Ziggy Stardust" concept he's come up with for the next one.

[@eamonndeane587]

A pity he doesn't have much luck with a girl named Sarah.... He has No Power over Her....

[@ashleightompkins3200]

He did make a lot of women appreciate tight pants though

[@SpaceGeek2161]

I thought he opened a nightclub in L.A....

[@Macrochenia]

Dream saying that the Cuckoo wasn't evil because she just acted according to her nature is a bold take for a a universe where Darkseid exists.

[@kallisto9166]

Only Linkara could bring Danny Chase into this. I love it.

[@pixelbomb97]

A Game of You has always been one of my favorites. I see the story as one of the past coming back to control us. Whether that be a terrible transphobic family, a pregnancy from cheating, or literally an animal using your younger face to control the world you've created, but forgot about. It's a story that touches me in profound ways that I'm having trouble putting into words.

[@Savagewolver]

Emperor Norton might be the most fascinating person I’ve ever heard about in American history. He sounds like a looney tune, something out of a children’s book, but he was actually real, and apparently his “reign” did good things for San Francisco. What a nice guy.

[@nellieworkman3935]

Lots of trans people already gave their perspectives on Wanda, but here's mine- The character was such a mood. I love her, she's fantastic, and among the fictional characters I will fight somebody in a Denny's Parking Lot over. While her story may not stand up to the passage of time, and the issues become harder to ignore... I started questioning my assigned gender very young, though I never put it in those terms. I saw plenty of movies about men in dresses. I had seen movies were trans women were punchlines or serial killers. When I read this story I was hurt that she was killed off for a little bit of pathos for a cisgender protagonist. But I was so relieved that she was a human being and not a joke character. There are plenty of stories that we call "Progressive for the time" but then look at them in context, and realize that "progressive for the time" is just something we use to justify the screw-ups of older media. But in this case I don't see, for example, a half-assed LGBT metaphor on Star Trek that has horrendous implications. I see a genuinely progressive story by somebody who made a few mistakes along the way.

[@alchemicpink2392]

Yeah I also like that Wanda is just given basic humanity and respect from the perspective of both the writer and the story which is still really effin' rare nowadays.

[@SnakeRoadComicsOfficial3677]

I'll be honest I cried seeing her die, she was a well written Character. Fuck her family tho.

[@eamonndeane587]

@@SnakeRoadComicsOfficial3677 They don't have the right to be called her 'Family'. Barbie, Hazel and Foxglove were Wanda's REAL family....

[@darkhelmet87]

Or a series where superman is a horror host, but he keeps interrupting the stories to save the victims on impulse

[@philiphockenbury6563]

That would be a really funny comic

[@jadenbryant9283]

​@@philiphockenbury6563 horror villain :dammit Clark stop saving these people there supposed to die Clark: sorry I can't help myself

[@viraltang]

There's an idea, has a horror host super hero ever been done before?

[@Hanmerhack]

@@viraltang I think Marvel did that with the character The Grave Digger. Started off as a horror Host, but was brought back as a member of a horror themed hero team.

[@PosthumanHeresy]

34:50 You taught me the answer to this! She's referencing Pre-Crisis Bizarro. Post-Crisis Bizarro versions all suggest that that's just a word that exists in the DC Multiverse as a normal word. A lot of Pre-Crisis lore became in-universe fiction Post-Crisis. This is Post-Crisis. She's first describing a show that's the result of that process and then just using in-universe slang.

[@Vesperitis]

“Dumbass of the Endless” is my new favorite joke and I have never been more jealous at not thinking of an idea first.

[@ashleightompkins3200]

If Ramiel was going to make hell into a place of redemption, has he thought about opening a hotel? Maybe getting a radio in?

[@eamonndeane587]

It would certainly be a hell of a place to visit...

[@jackwells8107]

One of the things that fascinates me with Seasons of the Mists is that Lucifer says 'he gives (mortals) the punishment they think they deserve (that might not be from Seasons of the Mist itself, since it's hard to keep the Lucifer comic, TV show, and even other versions separate), and yet he himself kept himself there - basically punishing himself, until he finally decided he'd paid enough. With 'A Game of You', I think the reason the Cuckoo couldn't fly is that Barbra stopped dreaming for those two years. I'm not sure if this is because I read these, issue by issue - month by month - as they came out, and had time to digest and consider them; or maybe because I finished this story when you were still a child and have read and re-read it since then, but it seems to me that all of it has to be read in consideration of 'what is one's nature and how much can one change it while remaining oneself?', which seems to me to be the central tenant of the story.

[@Volvagia1927]

I mean I think it'd be pretty easy to keep the comic book Lucifer (which, as far as I know, is still basically tonally and structurally in line with The Sandman) and the TV show Lucifer (probably the best "episodic cop show" (not best period, that'd be The Wire, but that show is by NO structural definition "episodic") of the 21st century, give or take Fillmore!) separate.

[@MDoorpsy]

I like to think of the comic as basically Lucifer being a moody 20 something that's finally decided to move out of his dad's basement and get his own place.

[@krbthewitch]

For as bleak as the ending of Wanda's story is, I kind of appreciate the interpretation of 'Even though some may never accept the you you truly are, there will always be someone who will and those people are the ones worth your love.' And 'Your soul represents the real you, and her soul was a beautiful woman.' Maybe a little optimistic, but I think that's what Gaiman was going for.

[@jamiethebadwitch4003]

First shot is a cat walking across the couch, instant like

[@viraltang]

I got nothing to add. Im just glad you've done retrospectives on my two favorite comic books of all time. Sandman and ROM. Thanks for the laughs and helping new readers keep these stories alive man.

[@rikrikonius1301]

Regarding the Weirdzo/Bizarro thing, in his Tumblr, Neil Gaiman said the original script had them as "Bizarros" but DC editorial wanted it changed as technically the story takes place in DC continuity. That "Bizarro" probably was just one that missed getting changed.

[@wanderingstorytellerj7758]

Shakespeare: "Hell is empty, and all the devils are here." Lucifer: "Huh. There's an idea..." "A Game of You's" biggest problem is that it comes across as a spinoff. A plot-relevant spinoff, but a spinoff nonetheless. Fun fact about the Chibis: Morpheus and his sister were planned to appear in those forms in a Christmas special for Batman: the Animated Series. I don't know why that never happened and wish it had. Also, the bit where Abel is telling the story is one of the only times he ever speaks without stuttering. For once, he's happy.

[@jeremytung1632]

This batch introduced me to one of the most amazing historical figures I never knew about, emperor Norton the first.

[@wanderingstorytellerj7758]

Now we just need to get him on a ticket with Prez Rickard from next time. They could win the election and replace Anton York: 45th President of the United States.

[@nonspiderweb]

Same! I love emperor Norton, I love how the people of San Francisco accepted him. We really need a emperor Norton biopic at some point.

[@daelen.cclark]

@@nonspiderweb That would be an amazing movie!

[@noir-214]

13:31 I'd like to point out the great cast for odin and loki in the audio book, odin is played by Bill Night, which is perfect, and loki is played by the 10th Doctor himself David tennant witch is amazing

[@bigk9000]

When Morpheus said, "By the by, his name is Daniel," all I could think of was Matt Smith's Eleventh Doctor saying, "I speak baby," and "He prefers to go by Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All." 😂

[@SnakeRoadComicsOfficial3677]

I really love the concept of various deities wanting to buy Hell. While here its because Lucifer has quit his job, what if there's a story where Lucifer is far from wanting to quit wanting to overthrown God and various deities still want to purchase Hell from him.

[@tyrant-den884]

This does make me psyched for another season of Netflix Sandman.

[@Macrochenia]

Let's see if they actually work Enter Sandman into it this time.

[@EmperorSeth]

I am honestly curious what they do with A Game of You. There are a lot of ways they may ending up revising it.

[@MDoorpsy]

Makes me hope we eventually get just as many spinoffs of the Netflix show as the comic got. Gwendoline Christie starring in a more faithful adaptation of Lucifer would be my dream come true.

[@taintedscholar5044]

9:20 You did it. You broke Satan's life story down to its bare essentials.

[@ianr.navahuber2195]

That was actually funny

[@Cdr2002]

“He’s out of line but he’s right” I was hoping you’d use that clip one of these days

[@eamonndeane587]

While that was funny, I'm not sure if this was the best occasion for it since Desire is supposed to be Non Binary.

[@Cdr2002]

@@eamonndeane587 as Lewis went into in the previous part, Desire is more genderfluid, and as such, it could be possible that multiple pronoun variations apply to them, though I personally think using they/them is the best bet

[@AT4W]

I sadly can't control the pronoun usage in the clips, much like how I might still use "There is logic in what he says" for any non-male character.

[@Cdr2002]

@@AT4W totally understandable, it happens

[@eamonndeane587]

​@Linkara-AtopTheFourthWall To be fair, Non Binary representation in media isn't as widespread as it should be. This is the State of the World we live in.... Unfortunately....

[@Valdagast]

I don't know if I would say the "Game of You" is my favorite Sandman stories, but it's one that stayed with me. It made an impression - I don't know why.

[@CBSmith-js9yl]

I read Game of You 3 months after a loved one passed. She wasn’t trans but she also died and buried not as their true self. When I got to that ending with the dream plus the line at the end about saying goodbyes where you can…..talk about a gut punch! It helped me with my grief so much. But I don’t fault linkara or anyone not having the same impact I had.

[@timbates12]

Not gonna pretend A Game of You hasn't aged, or that any criticisms of it aren't valid. But I'm never going to be able to forget that it's ending was inspired by Gaiman hearing about the then-somewhat-obscure practice of trans people being buried under their deadnames, and being so incensed by that that he dedicated the end of the story to showing just how abhorrent the kind of people who would do that truly are. Doesn't excuse any more problematic elements of the story, including the fact that for that detail to be included, the trans character has to die, but the deadname burial was a practice I only learned about through this book, and looking back on it, I can probably trace a lot of my current views on trans rights to having their origins right here.

[@tokubrony9447]

Despite all the schedule slipping, I still look forward to new videos and that said schedule will finally get on track. *knock on wood*

[@MDoorpsy]

The soft places disappear because, when they were unexplored, they were places that only exist in people's imagination. As more and more people witness them in person, their perception of these places becomes more concrete, and thus so too their presence in the Dreaming. I tend to agree that its one of the weaker one offs, and I tend to skip it on rereads, but it does have some good ideas that get revisited later.

[@EmperorSeth]

I suppose the good news is that the unknown hasn't gone away, just gotten farther away. it's increasingly obvious we won't meet other people on the Moon or Mars, so our imagination takes us to the farthest reaches of the galaxy. Or other galaxies. Or, increasingly frequently, the Multiverse.

[@SageofStars]

Interestingly enough, there's a game called Infinite Space where this thing, soft places becoming hard, is played for cosmic horror. Since it's hard to find, to spoil, our universe used to be nothing BUT soft spaces, so our makers inserted us into it to hardened, to bring it to completion, simply by observing it. Then, once it was hard enough, once it was really there...they harvest it, eating worlds, stars, and entire galaxies, to feed their machinations. So the expansion of humanity in that story into the unknown reaches of space, the journey of the protagonist to see amazing things, in the end turns out to be dooming all to nothingness.

[@mitkitty]

The whole part with Lucifer and closing hell is one of my favorite stories-it stuck in my brain and it just stayed in my brain. The part where the angels claim they're torturing with LOVE and that makes hell even worse...it hit so hard

[@Thomas.Wright]

"This is a Good land! And we will thrive! We will rule over all this land, and we shall call it . . . THIS LAND!"' "I THINK WE SHOULD CALL IT YOUR GRAVE!" "AAHH! CURSE YOUR SUDDEN BUT INEVITABLE BETRAYAL!"

[@eamonndeane587]

"Mine is an EVIL Laugh!!!"

[@TheUncomplicator]

The bizzaro error is fixed in most recent editions. Apparently, gaiman wrote it to be bizzaro and it was changed at the last minute.

[@RaphBlade7]

Gotta love how Linkara's video opens with one of his cats on the back of the sofa & they kindly step down out of frame!

[@manjiimortal]

In my opinion, the big takeaway from The Parliament of Rooks is what Cain says at the end, while he murders Abel: "I keep telling you: It's the mystery that endures. Not the explanation. A good mystery can last forever." Which I retroactively see as a criticism of superhero's, and general storytelling's, need to explain everything rather than leave mysteries to shimmer and endure. A common reaction to the reveal of a long-standing mystery in storytelling, is often general disappointment, as the canonical answer tends to be underwhelming when compared with every other possibility people can think of. I really like it, because I feel that there's much greater mystique to small mysteries, than there is to straight answers, which usually will open whole new cans of worms.

[@alchemicpink2392]

Good example to bring up here is when I-forget-who tried to make the Joker basically a jungian chaos god manifesting over and over during the face-stapled-back-on debacle of a character design for the guy. Like, somehow they managed to come up with a worse resolution to who the Joker is than making him Joe Chill just because they ran up against the constant comics problm of Batman (and consequently Joker) oversaturation.

[@Fanatic_Foremem]

It feels weird seeing this from the original perspective, my only exposure to this part of dc was "At Deaths Door" a shoujo manga styled retelling of this arc done from the perspective of Death, Dispair and Delerium. Alot of the same scenes, dispair looks adorable, and delerium looks like sailor moon going through a glam punk phase.

[@jacobsedlack1173]

12:01 Cut to Tom Ellis Lucifer at Lux singing Sinnerman.

[@eamonndeane587]

That or Creep in Season 4

[@PaxtheDreamer]

You know, one aspect about Hell in Sandman has always been something that has bumped around in my head. On one hand, you look at it and go "Well, wait a minute. By the rules of the Sandman universe, only those who believe they deserve hell will go there. Truly AWFUL people who believe they were righteous will not suffer, and kindhearted people who believe they deserve punishment for existing will be bound forever. That's not fair, is it?" And then on the other hand: "Yes. It isn't fair. It just IS. That's the point."

[@ryguy0813]

Loved this in the audiobook. David Tennant played Loki & Bill Nighy played Odin

[@daelen.cclark]

Nothing horrifies like an empty hell.

[@ianr.navahuber2195]

Gonna ask.... why? is it a case of "you will always be alone, YOU are the one true evil person, and you are the only problem in the world" deal?, if so, then i get it..... Otherwise, I don't get it. why would that be scary?

[@CrestHolder130]

​@@ianr.navahuber2195 because no man is an island. True solitude is one of the worst fates anyone can suffer through, especially if you aren't at peace with yourself. And if you are in hell, you most likely won't be.

[@ianr.navahuber2195]

@@CrestHolder130 so it is the "you will always be alone" deal. thanks....

[@daelen.cclark]

@@ianr.navahuber2195 The idea that everything in hell is actually on earth, is what I got.

[@Dynaman21]

49:20 - “Anybody want a peanut?” Yes, this story would have been improved by Andre. Odds are it would have ended with him drinking Baba Yaga under the table.

[@sevensulivin4903]

Seasons if Mists is my favourite Sandman arc and the Emperor Norton one shot is my favourite single issue.

[@nanardeurlambda]

50:15 fun fact: soft places wre introduced by enil gaiman because he started realizing he was getting somewhere specific with his story, and was afraid the book could be cancelled before that was ready. so he had this concpet ready in case things had to be accelerated

[@JoeKerr019]

bit of trivia: Why does Morpheus has shaggy hair? because he is supposed to represent someone who just "Woke up."

[@jadak100]

Isn't it because Morpheus design is a little bit based on the main singer of the cure?

[@JoeKerr019]

@@jadak100 allegedly

[@MurderousEagle]

Wanda's story is better if you consider in the world of Sandman especially that dying is not the end of the journey. Death the mother, the rebel, the observer, the dutiful bringing a bright soul to a path less hostile

[@TheoVorster]

Seasons of Mist is probably the arc I most remember from The Sandman (besides the opening first arc and the end arc (technically arcs I guess), very engaging stuff and really allows Morpheus to develop as a character. The Edward Norton single issue was another one of my favorite singles stories. A Game of You I think is definitely an arc that shows its age, a “it was progressive for its time” in regards to some of the issues it tackled (I imagine it will be one of the most changed arcs if the TV show ever gets to it).

[@MDoorpsy]

Yeah, Gaiman has said that while it is the story he's most proud of, he would not write it the same way, if he were to tackle it again in the 2020s. Pretty much guaranteed to have some rewrites for the Netflix show.

[@eamonndeane587]

​@MDoorpsy I'm curious who they're going to cast to play Wanda. I've read somewhere that Wanda is going to have a more expanded role in Season 2 than in the Original Comic.

[@ceruleanwalker1069]

Season of Mists is my favourite comic. And without it, we wouldn't have Tom Ellis as the devil. I'm excited to hear your thoughts on it.

[@squeethemog213]

I am really enjoying this retrospective. It's inspiring me to create 😁

[@Mezzamine]

I don't know if Linkara has read or has opinions on it since he only mentioned it briefly, but I feel the need to say that the spinoff Lucifer comic is also FANTASTIC imo, an absolute classic almost on par with the series that spawned it. Just like Sandman it has a host of nuanced, flawed and interesting characters, explores some really complex topics of fate, self and (of course) faith / religion, and features a protagonist who is personable yet cruel, unearthly yet human, and somehow constantly riding that line between seemingly-invincible and always on the back foot. Much like A Game of You it does often shift focus to side characters, so bear that in mind going in, but then again probably my two favourite arc in Lucifer feature that exact shift in focus - A Dallience With The Damned and Inferno, in which a demon's unwilling human plaything is forced to navigate the politics of the new Hell. Also, Three Septembers and a January is possibly my single favourite issue of any comic ever printed and makes me teary every time I reread it. I'm so happy you're covering this series Linkara!

[@PosthumanHeresy]

46:40 As a trans person, I disagree. It's necessarily downbeat. Most readers are cis. You don't deserve a rose-tinted vision of how it is, we actually gotta live with it. The point is to upset you and make you feel the pain we feel.

[@monanarts3726]

Really loving this retrospective (never knew where to start for this series), also really loving Viga's title cards and this one has to be my most favourite so far!

[@sebastianemond5313]

25:29 - 25:55 So, is Ramiel really Charlie, daughter of Satan, from VivziePop's creation, Hazbin Hotel?

[@DetectorCliche]

39:55 Well isn't that just a coincidence. A couple of decades after this was published the House of Mouse came out with an episodic animated series with a similar concept to this storyline featuring a main character with the exact same name as the savior... oh wait.

[@skyslasher2297]

4:44 It makes some sense since an aspect of what causes despair is our regrets and remorse for those regrets. That or their deal is remorse but despair was the closet synonym that starts with D.

[@robstewartstewart98]

Lucifer: I QUIT! Heres my visor! My Dixon Ticonderoga #2 pencil! And my big finish........

[@djquinn4825]

I love the 2005 The Producers

[@Ancusohm]

I love the Sandman. Thanks for the episode!

[@TevyaSmolka]

sandman is such a great series and honestly seeing the devil lucifer aka Satan quit hell itself and leave is really funny because frankly i would love to see that story actually happen in the marvel universe because that would mean OMD would finally go away at least in my opinion. ;)

[@WeirdWonderful]

@54:51 that would have been my solution too, I only really thought about it while watching the video. Odin just wants a place for the Gods to hide to escape Ragnarok, so they would probably not even need that much, not sure if anyone else would be okay with less than the entirety of Hell, even though I think the series stated Hell was infinite in extent too ?

[@marcovalenzuela5602]

From what i can find out, the devil seen in Hellblazer and Lucifer in the Sandman are two separate entities. While Garth Ennis meant for the devil in Hellblazer to be Lucifer, when the Sandman came out and gave Lucifer completely different characterization Ennis retconned it so the devil in Hellblazer was a being known as the First of the Fallen. Essentially he is the first being God created and the first to fall from grace and ruled Hell before Lucifer came along and after he left (though this still contradicts events seen in the Sandman and Lucifer's own series)

[@HarveyVolodarskii]

Just quietly, if you ever want to look at Sandman Mystery Theatre as well, I will send you my firstborn child like you’re Dream and I’m Lyta Hall.

[@Awesome_Pichu]

Heaven becoming in charge of Hell, wasn't that mentioned in Stanley and his Monster?

[@dannyfain3961]

I’d like to defend the lack of background information in A Game of You. To me it adds a sense of mystery and complexity of the Dreaming. Like AGoY was a small part of a larger story

[@WikiSorcerer]

Season of Mists was always my favorite arc.

[@GoneFishingAmalgam]

I remember once reading a one off story that stared Death and what she was having to deal with after Hell was emptied.

[@Maswartz226]

10:42 Like seriously, imagine arriving in Hell to find you're the first person there.

[@Emperor_Oshron]

iirc, the bit about the Fair Folk having to make sacrifices to Hell on the regular comes from the Scottish legend of Tam Lin, presumably a post-Christianization thing where anything not explicitly connected to God was seen as being aligned to the Devil by necessity; the fae basically adopted Tam Lin seemingly for benevolent reasons but it eventually turned out that they were planning to sacrifice him instead of one of their own and his love interest had to save him.

[@oswaldoandres8963]

So many gods this looks like a SMT battle

[@seanmalloy0528]

In Greek mythology The Grey Ladies are not The Furies, they are The Fates. Quite the difference if you look at their roles.

[@joshuaemmitt3980]

You may want to take another look at Greek mythology the fates, and the grey sisters are two sets of deities they’re not the same

[@kevinphiggins]

The murder of Martin Tenbones by police is one of the greatest tragedies in all of comics

[@devlinburgess2463]

This is a bit of a nerdy, unimportant digression, but I find it kind of funny that the Shinto god that gets sent to barter is Susanoo, aka the pantheon's resident boorish jackass. He literally caused his sun-sister to hide in a cave and nearly kill all life because he was so proud of winning a stupid contest between them that he pooped in her rice fields. Just saying, it's like sending your weird drunken uncle to negotiate for nuclear arms control.

[@keyblademasterclark]

Damn it, Supernatural. Your lore is drilled so deep into my head that I WINCE hearing that Ramiel is an ANGEL and not a Prince of Hell!

[@lorddrayvon1426]

"It's kind of a reminder that Kings and Emperors and the like only have power because people *allow* them to have power." Fun historical fact;; a major reason the Roman Empire died was due to massive over-expansion. They became so large that the different legions across Europe basically operated as thier own military units so they'd often declare independence, crown whichever centurion they liked the most Emperor and then break from Rome. This is how we got the Gaulic, Holy Roman and Adjectiveless Roman Empires all existing at once at one point. Another fun fact; technically, the Holy Roman Empire didn't fall until 1806. As it lasted 1000 years, it's the longest lasting empire ever.

[@princessfeather3336]

Hi, allow me to leave a comment on the character of Wanda from the POV of a trans-woman. As much as I hate the graphical depiction by one of the artists (that jawline of nightmares), I must say that Gaiman himself did a great job by showing a level of distance to herself along with the complete sense of self-assurance and the desire to have control over her own life to the very end. But the most heartwarming touch is in the very epilogue: Wanda had to die so that the readers can see beyond any doubt that her soul and true self was truly a beautiful woman. This is a beautiful message. Thank you, Neil! 🥰

[@eamonndeane587]

Do you think 'A Game of You' would still work if Barbie was killed off instead of Wanda?

[@princessfeather3336]

@@eamonndeane587 Well, It would have been a very different story. From a writer's point of view I'd say it would be a bad choice to kill the protagonist this way, because the shock value would have dominated the outcome of the story at the cost of sub-plots like Wanda's.

[@eamonndeane587]

@@princessfeather3336 A Fair perspective to be sure.

[@mr_lrb6879]

Given how prominent the Norse gods are in Marvel, it's always kinda amusing whenever I remember "oh yeah, DC has their own versions of them". Which, I mean, isn't really a bad thing, it just feels weird.

[@opjm8664]

15:42 You pronounce Susanoo-no-Mikoto in such a cute way

[@JoeKerr019]

Dunno if you tackled this one or mentioned it, but in one of the Sandman Spin offs (The Death Manga), they tell you what happen with the souls when Hell got emptied

[@Wanderingsage7]

Surprisingly, the Black Lantern event, Death apparently thought it was just a bit of fun. Or that's what ive read online at one point. Though if she was aware of how serious things were/got, she would have slapped Necron down.

[@WikiSorcerer]

I actually learned about Norton the First from The Sandman and he's one of those eccentrics that makes History so interesting.

[@dracorex426]

I wonder how Gaiman picked out which seven 'd'-words to use for the Endless. He already had Destiny obviously, and Death is extremely obvious, plus Dream was the only real option for it to have anything to do with Sandman, but what about the rest. Why no Disgust of the Endless, Doom of the Endless, Deception of the Endless, Deviance of the Endless, Divinity of the Endless, Depravity of the Endless, Deprivation of the Endless, Deduction of the Endless, Dedication of the Endless, Desecration of the Endless, Design of the Endless, etc?

[@FNGLHR]

It's kinda funny how hell closes up shop and every other pantheon rushes in to grab it basically saying "It's free real estate." Like you're expecting an epic battle in the pit of hell, between dreams and demons... no, it's arbitration ceremony over who gets the deed to run the place instead. They did not cover this on the Lucifer tv show and honestly they really should've. It would been hilarious. No idea how the Netflix version of this is going to cover half of these events given that the series sorta implied that they were gonna go in a different direction.

[@YMasterS]

A game of you was the first part if this series I was able to pick up, and it left me very confused on if I'd picked up the right thing, since it didn't seem to match the impression of Sandman I'd gotten from others who had read it. Due to that, I actually went a few years before next trying to pick the series up. I actually think Wanda being treated the way she was after dying was important, tbh, as it showed that knowing and owning she was, and choosing how she lived for herself didn't fix anything. Society and people who had more reason than most to care about her were still the same awful people they had been, and that battle needs everyone to fight it, with still no guarantees it will be won.

[@Gaia_BentosZX5]

I could see an intense argument of the three, with the other two thinking it's a horrible idea to close up shop so the other lucifer I always thought was yoinked from another dimension, to replace the quitter of their own realm. Beelzebub especially would be PISSED, presumably taking his frustrations out on mortals as this event occurs. And I joke if Getter Robo were canon to the DCU, it would likely set the events off with the Dinosaurs rising to reclaim what was rightfully their own, since there's no one home.

[@crawler0095]

20:15, thanks to The Fat Electrician, this is the SECOND time ive seen that clip today.

[@罪のアリス]

The ending to "A Game of You" makes incites a lot of emotions. It absolutely makes my blood boil to see Wanda's headstone with her deadname on it as that is a fear I and every other transperson know too well. Then seeing her lead away by death just puts me into a crying fit. She deserved so much better, but at least we can see her happy.

[@eamonndeane587]

And free from Vile biggots.

[@michaellombardi1620]

The 4th collection really blew me away the first time I read it, 7 was a close second, but the sheer amount of ideas in 4 was mind blowing to my younger self. I also loved that the devil ended up in my home town

[@shadowldrago]

The "stinger" punchline caught me offguard. Well done.

[@DJtheChaos246]

Y’know, DC having connections to a lot of horror comics would make sense given the New 52 and all. Hell, you’d think the Joker getting his face cut off and nailed to a wall to boot was inspired by what they do to that creepy George guy in Sandman.

[@ajnapalm]

Probably the only time someone can say "Screw the Moon! Wanda's a Woman!"

[@eamonndeane587]

"W-O-M-A-N!"

[@malcomalexander9437]

@@eamonndeane587 That spells moon.

[@eamonndeane587]

​@@malcomalexander9437 I was trying to do a Cher reference.

[@malcomalexander9437]

@@eamonndeane587 And I was referencing Stephen King's The Stand.

[@mndrew1]

Listened to the new full-cast audiobooks of these and by far my favorite character is John Lithgow doing Emperor Norton.

[@davehandelman2832]

Omg LOVE THESE SOOOOO MUCH!! keep em coming!!!