LIPPERT ENGINEERING VP Explains RV Frame Flex in depth! Normal vs Abnormal!

#rv #towing #trucks
BigTruckBigRV LIFE Channel: @BTBRV LIFE
Instagram: / bigtruckbigrv
Facebook: / bigtruckbigrv
Links to many of the accessories I review and use from etrailer!
www.etrailer.c...
RV Towing Upgrades
*Reese Goosebox Gen3: www.etrailer.c...
*B&W OEM Gooseball: www.etrailer.c...
*B&W Fifth Wheel Hitch: www.etrailer.c...
*B&W Sliding Fifth Wheel Hitch: www.etrailer.c...
*Equalizer Weight Distribution Hitch: www.etrailer.c...
*B&W Tow and Stow Hitch: www.etrailer.c...
*Curt Drop Hitch: www.etrailer.c...
RV and Trailer Equipment Upgrades
*RoadArmor Suspension Equalizer: www.etrailer.c...
*HD Shackle Straps and Wet Bolts: www.etrailer.c...
*RV Suspension Upgrade (travel trailer, Cargo Trailer): www.etrailer.c...
*16” G Rated Wheel Tire Combo: www.etrailer.c...
*Goodyear Endurance 15” Trailer Tire: www.etrailer.c...
*Goodyear Endurance 16” Trailer Tire: www.etrailer.c...
*Furrion Wireless Backup Camera: www.etrailer.c...
*Furrion Wireless Side and Rear Cameras: www.etrailer.c...
*Phoenix Electric Trailer Jack 4,000 lbs: www.etrailer.c...
*GlowStep Revolution Steps: www.etrailer.c...
*LCI Solid Steps: www.etrailer.c...
*LCI AutoLeveling System: www.etrailer.c...
*Reese Fifth Wheel Dual Motor Landing Gear: www.etrailer.c...
Must Have Equipment!
*6000 Watt Generator Kit: www.etrailer.c...
*3200 Watt Inverter Generator: www.etrailer.c...
*2000 Watt Inverter Generator: www.etrailer.c...
*30amp to 50amp Power Cord: www.etrailer.c...
*LED RV Replacement Taillights: www.etrailer.c...
*Fastway Tire Chocks: www.etrailer.c...
*RV Foam Sprayer: www.etrailer.c...
*RV Soap: www.etrailer.c...
Truck Upgrades
*Airlift 5000 Airbag Kit: www.etrailer.c...
*Airlift Wireless Air Controller: www.etrailer.c...
*Access Toolbox Bed Cover: www.etrailer.c...
*Bedrug Bed Liner: www.etrailer.c...
*Floormats: www.etrailer.c...
*Etrailer.com is the official sponsor of my channel. Equipment reviewed may have been provided by them as part of that sponsorship. All reviews are honest and unbiased. This channel is for entertainment purposes, and you should always do your own research prior to making a decision!
Sponsored items may be in this video. Always research multiple sources before making a purchasing decision. As an Amazon Associate, I earn commission from qualifying purchases.

[@BigTruckBigRV]

Please read this. If you feel that your frame is experiencing something outside what's being described here YOU SHOULD absolutely reach out to Lippert, the RV manufacturer, and any other resource you think might be able to help you isolate and possibly repair the problem. The purpose of these videos was not to focus blaming anyone area, but to express what typically is happening when you see the type of movement and flex and most people are seeing. People getting upset at my interview need to understand how questions must be asked in this type of a format to get an answer at all. All the questions were questions that either I came up with or were submitted from my viewers. I sincerely apologize if anyone feels that I was soft or not digging deep enough. I was impressed that they were at least willing to have a conversation about this. I don't think there's any way to make everyone happy here, my goal was to provide a valuable amount of information to at least help identify what one of the issues may be as a starting point towards solving it. Everyone situation will be different. Again, if you feel that Lippert is at fault or if you would simply like to tour their facilities and see how they make their product, you should reach out to them.

[@mrmo9125]

Well i guess im just screwed. Bought a Momentum 351 toy hauler a couple years ago, have not pulled it across country or anything, but traveled around the northeast and southeast quite a bit. Now my frame is gonna break? WTH

[@Errol.C-nz]

Lippert CLEARLY dont understand stress risers.. the numerous frame fails ive seen have all initiated at a weld point.. so many intersecting angles on the main rails at the step.. thats not to say they build all their chassis that way but i havent seen any of differing basic design.. not much info uot there on King of the Road chassis

[@newenglandrvadventures]

Saying that the frame relies on a styrofoam laminated wall with 14 gauge aluminum square tubing, stuffed with wood lagged on to place where flex is designed to “happen” is admitting that the frame was not strong enough. 😂

[@G53X0Y0Z0]

Exactly.

[@neoturfmasterMVS]

🎯

[@deerless999]

The wall cladding is not, by design, a “structural” element… it depends on the frame for full support. As others have said below, saying these foam laminated with aluminum walls are structural is a proverbial point of a crooked finger.

[@neoturfmasterMVS]

@@deerless999 Nothings a 'structural' element in a trailer home. Not to anyone outside of the 'trailer industry'. To all other engineers these are glorified rolling cardboard boxes.

[@dscottmccaig9156]

as soon as the engineer started mentioning the wood structure being integral to the frame "system" my eyes rolled back in my head..........unbelievable!!!

[@djaco45011]

A new semi trailer that can handle 40 thousands pounds 48 feet is 48 thousand dollars. When a cost of a toy hauler 43 ft is a 130,000.00 . They definitely can build a better frame.

[@lavonsmith133]

Yeah as truck driver, new RV owner, I agree. Another issue is most frames has a aluminum upper deck so they have 2 metals and that doesn't always work. Specially with the rough roads these days.

[@jimlarkin1400]

these examples shown in the video I bet are welded by a true welder not the 600 trained to get it done fast and cost lowering instead of certified welder is the issue. I have a 2016 Montana and the welds are far from good that is the issue with Frame failure, not the Flex which is understandable in all frames.

[@mishafrog8786]

As in the blog they state the can build stronger no problem but the wieght goes up pro rata.

[@jeffhatmaker817]

Agree, but most are 53 feet.

[@michaelcraft2650]

This is what 80k-100k plus gets you in the RV world today. A giant spin cycle of finger pointing. Key take away from this segment is the Engineer saying "or If it was attached incorrectly". I personally do not think Lippert shoulders most of the blame here. At least they are defending their product instead of berating and ignoring customers with the problem ... like Grand Design is doing. This whole issue is one catastrophic frame failure on the road that seriously hurts or kills someone, and game over. Lippert is distancing itself from the Manufacturers. As it should. Where are you Grand Design? Crickets....

[@BigTruckBigRV]

Actually only Lippert has responded at all right?

[@kingair350]

Of course they responded. They are blaming the owner for overloading it and the manufacturer for over “engineering” the attachments.

[@tmb93]

I agree, I have owned 2 brand new campers in less than 2 years. First was a 2022 keystone alpine 3720md worst purchase I’ve ever made. It literally stayed at the dealer more than at my house. So I took a beating traded it for a 2024 grand design momentum 381ms last fall spent one weekend in it for the furnace to not work and inverter failed. I’m thinking about cutting it loose and being done with camping all together. As long as we put up with it they are going to sell it to us that simple.

[@JIMPETERSON-n7i]

@@tmb93-- There are custom RV builders whose quality is light years ahead of these Moe Rons. Keep in mind that every $1 of cost at the factory becomes $3 of MSRP. Factories want to double their money so that becomes dealer cost. The dealer would like to make 33% of selling price too but usually they must discount 15 to 20% below MSRP to make the sale. And anyone who pays more than 20% below MSRP for a new RV is a fool. But with custom builders, there is no dealer. You deal direct with the builder. Their "sales" person is back on the line as soon as you leave the store. You pay a significant deposit and you wait as long as it takes. If you die or back out on the deal, the builder is in a good position to sell your rig at a significant discount (deducting your deposit) and cover their expenses. With a custom builder, you get a *much* superior product *and* a better price. People get in a hurry and they don't want to wait and IMHO, they get what they deserve. :(

[@vernt4583]

It’s a deflection from the fact that two separate companies are not working together to resolve the problem. Just engineer the framework to work independently from relying on the coach to hold up itself…..!!!!

[@icare7151]

With decades of senior mechanical, advanced material reinforcement and forensic testing and failure analysis engineering experience, the RV industry is full of total bs.

[@RichardQuaid]

I wonder how many people have never once weighed their RV?

[@WireEd1966]

Excellent! I think the folks here would like to hear an outside expert opinion or evaluation on what might be happening, especially if the industry is hiding something or glossing something over. Thoughts?

[@rickcrouse2131]

Build the frame so that you do not have to rely on the side wall.

[@petercampbell4220]

The idea that a laminated wall will perform as a chassis truss is total bs. With slide outs cutting the wall 90%. The knee is always under stress. So the rv manufacturer would need a verslam under the roof and stiff wall panels. Cheap t h o r or win a bagel low bid panels will nor do it. If the shell was as thick as a fiberglass boat hull without big holes it would wotk. Bravo to op.

[@RichardQuaid]

@@petercampbell4220 The skin of a plane plays a major part in it's structure. You have to use it to maintain weight limits. From the internet, "Modern airplanes are built using a method called monocoque construction. This method uses stressed skin as the main structural component. To help visualize this, think of a soda can. The skin sits around two bulkheads, or formers (the top and bottom of the can), providing a surprisingly strong unit when undamaged".

[@joedonbaker1673]

So if I understand this correctly, lag bolts and wood screws going through aluminum into wood are what we are relying on to support our 5th wheels... LOVELY!

[@BigTruckBigRV]

I kind of agree my friend

[@jim87vette]

My thoughts exactly. It's not sufficient.

[@Itsa_Mea]

Exactly. You got it! When my Wildcat failed all those bolts hidden behind the carpet were loose. This is something I think we all need to become familiar with and check them periodically.

[@julieryan6453]

Good lord. These roads alone in the US could cause this to happen.

[@boyeatsworld-vr9ci]

@@dokedoker3340 sarcasm?

[@backcountryboondockers]

32 years of manufacturing, welding. That's not strong enough. All that leverage of a 2x6 tube

[@chriswhite5798]

Looks like way too much weight for that structure.

[@Itsa_Mea]

They changed design to the Rhinobox, which is a 6x6 square tube that they rely on for less torsion.

[@mikesnifferpippets3733]

Agreed. The thickness alone is way too thin. Their frames are wet noodles going down the road relying on the house to stiffen things up… not a great combination.

[@jarrsong]

Correct.

[@ArthriticAngler]

Everyone wants to tow a long trailer with a half ton, and wonders why. Heck look at the payload of a 3/4 diesel. Gotta put the trailers on slim fast to make weight.

[@williamdevlin7667]

Building these frames to rely on the sidewalls for structure support is absolutely ridiculous. That frame should be built and welded to not rely on anything but itself. The sidewalls are attached with lag bolts which are in general backing out and loosening its hold.

[@BigTruckBigRV]

I'm not totally sure that you can completely eliminate the two structures needing to support each other to some degree. I would certainly like to see a frame that is built so strong that it does not rely at all on the rest of the structure. It would be interesting to see how much that frame weighs and how it could limit the floor plan options.

[@khoward1]

​@@BigTruckBigRV maybe reach out to Spacecraft. I know they build mostly fifth wheels on semi chassis, but they also build a standard fifth wheel that can be towed with a dually.

[@mikesnifferpippets3733]

Maybe they should downsize for the sake of extending the life of these RV’s. If someone wants a triple axle toy hauler then they’ll be forced to buy a F550 or larger. At least the safety factor is there. Right now there is zero factor for error.

[@davidkendall6801]

Absolutely right. Flimsy walls don't support anything.

[@keithpfrang2114]

Semi van trailers rely on the walls to help support the load. This is a common and proven practice. Semi trailers will collapse when they are damaged and continue to be used without proper repairs, or more often, when overloaded.

[@a-a-ron2336]

The first 4 minutes, complete BS. Correction the first seven and a half minutes. What was the point of you going there if you're just going to answer your own questions?

[@Itsa_Mea]

Clarification for viewers. Many people have no idea that there are lag bolts that go through the chassis and into the side wall framing to tie the units together. Alot is riding on those bolts. When they work loose you can expect failure.

[@larrycouch1379]

Riged

[@pif0514]

@@Itsa_Mea And why are they working loose? Water damage is a rhter unlikely root cause.

[@a-a-ron2336]

@@Itsa_Mea the whole thing is a bad joke ✌️

[@Itsa_Mea]

@@pif0514 road shock alone is enough. Thin aluminum tubing with wood on the inside with a wood lag bolt is not an ideal fastener.

[@akroadtripper6176]

I like a lot of JDs videos, but he doesn’t let others talk, I have seen this in many of his interview videos. He asked the question and answered his own question. Didn’t learn anything from the first few minutes.

[@BigTruckBigRV]

Yeah, I struggle with that

[@waltfriedrich7631]

and you often beat the answer to death@@BigTruckBigRV

[@SpykersB]

⁠@@waltfriedrich7631😂 it's called rephrasing 101 times just to be sure ya got it right 😂🍻

[@jeffconley819]

Totally right in point. And his answers to his own questions are assumptions and not based in fact …..just opinion. This all leads to slanted videos the appear biased

[@richardmckinley7358]

JD, the first two parts of this video of your three-part series have been excellent. But, now you have just destroyed everything you have been trying to teach us about frame failure in this third video. You would ask a question and then instead of letting the engineer answer the question, you answered it yourself. I appreciate what you are saying, but maybe you should’ve held your comments until the end of the video. But that being said, thank you for this information.

[@BigTruckBigRV]

Sorry, I am a content hog sometimes.. I'm working on it

[@Mudbeaver1]

So how would you know if you have a problem in its early stages.

[@AJ-hm5ck]

As an engineer.... Lippert claiming the house sidewalls and roof are a "semi-monocoque structure" (the proper term) is ridiculous. The Lippert engineer can't calculate the frame loads without understanding the strength of the "house".... therefore, Lippert needs to design to worse case scenario (ie the frame must carry all the load). I put the blame on Lippert.....and their substandard engineering, or corporate greed, or both. Big Truck RV should have talked to an engineer before doing the Lippert interview so they would know the right questions to ask. I don't know this, but my guess is if an engineer wanted to interview Lippert, Lippert wouldn't do the interview. In court.... Lippert's engineering explanation won't hold up. I wouldn't want to be that Lippert engineer. I couldn't sleep at night.

[@paulavery366]

They are no longer engineering their products - just going by rules of thumb, hope for the best, it worked before, extrapolated the last design, trusted the supplier etc, etc. It will really cost them in recalls, new sales, lost jobs and lawsuits.

[@kingair350]

The frame shown is probably the best welded and prettiest in the plant.

[@williamdevlin7667]

But still does not have enough welds!

[@BigTruckBigRV]

​@@williamdevlin7667i believe the welds locations are eched into the material. Not sure if more are needed based on engineering loads or if they are only in those areas for a specific reason.

[@K_Dawg1979]

I work in trailer manufacturing, it is my understanding that you cannot weld it solid, or it will warp twist and bend un-evenly as your welding it as stuff gets hot, It will also be to rigid and break instead of flex.@@BigTruckBigRV

[@TDub_ADV]

I have looked at a LOT of the welds on my new DRV and they look just as good as this one.

[@SpykersB]

Oh i'm sure too 😂. The show room model of perfection. 🍻

[@deanjasso174]

I would call this leading the witness, I noticed you pretty much did all the talking and explaining. The person that I think a lot of us would like to have heard talk barely said 50 words, that would be the engineer.

[@mikesnifferpippets3733]

Agreed, I mentioned this in the last video too.

[@samfixitguy1661]

This guy JD can certainly run his yap!

[@BigTruckBigRV]

​​@@samfixitguy1661yeah, he talks WAYY to much sometimes! Ok All the time. Character flaw for sure

[@rickr5716]

Know it all .......

[@keepit01]

Spending probably 80k on a fifth wheel trailer, frame breaks and the frame manufacturer and the rv company both point away liability from themselves and the buyer and insurance companies end up being the ones getting screwed.

[@Hebrews12v2]

Wow. BTBRV is absolutely carrying the whole discussion and explaining for Lippert here. He literally is putting words in Lipperts mouth. He pretty much did for all these videos. You have to wonder how much Lippert is giving him.

[@BigTruckBigRV]

Here's what Lippert's giving me. They're giving me access to VP level employees who have never been filmed before, and wouldn't be filmed by someone who thinks they're going to go in as a shock journalist. They're giving me access to their factories, their processes, and their procedures, which have never been filmed before. They're giving me access to their engineers who have never been filmed before. They giving me access to their innovation and engineering department, which is never been filmed before. Going in as a shock journalist would only have a door closed in your face. This interview was to at least ask some questions, get some answers, and learn.

[@Hebrews12v2]

@@BigTruckBigRV I appreciate the reply sir! I am not trying to be offensive, but You did do over 90% of the talking and explaining in this video, as others have commented. To anyone who is watching and is aware of the issue, as well as the multiple welders, engineers and other professional in these comments have stated, This video is an obvious attempt by Lippert to shift blame. It doesn't help that you didn't let this engineer do 95% of the talking. We appreciate the videos, but they are obvious for what they are. It is a shame how this played out on your channel, but it has, and it looks very suspicious, even if you, yourself were not compromised.

[@jerrynewman1474]

Did anyone notice how few of welds were along the frame and the “sidewall strap” and the cross member between the two frame rails? “I don’t call it failure, because it can be repaired”. If it’s broken, isn’t that a failure? If you have a flat tire, the tire fails to hold air, but it can be repaired, so does that mean there’s not a failure of the tire? JD, you do a good job of answering the questions for the engineer. You’re only addressing the instance where maybe a sidewall detached for some reason, what about when the sidewalls are still in place and you’re having “frame flex/failure”? Lippert is accepting absolutely no responsibility for any of these failures, it’s all on the OEM builder.

[@dmalley1597]

Exactly! The lack of continuous welds AND absolutely no triangular welded supports. Lippert utilizes the ABSOLUTE minimum in structural engineering AND reliance on the coach builder to validate their minimalistic approach to frame construction. I pity any consumer that buys any camper that uses a Lippert frame.

[@jeffconley819]

Spot on jerry

[@robertl9065]

Funny, my toyhauler carries a 4,500 lb Jeep and rides on a frame that makes the GD momentum’s look like tinker toys. Oh and it’s a Lippert frame. The manufacturer specs what they want. Some just spec the cheapest they think they can get away with.

[@mariap.7907]

Unless they get sued, these companies will not do anything so the hell out of them if you’ve had an incident with their frames, sue the hell out of them

[@Jeff-and-Joe]

Imagine a F250 that required the bed and cab to be properly integrated to provide structural integrity.

[@servicetrucker5564]

I don’t wanna

[@evanmartin7809]

That's how virtually all cars and SUVs are designed.

[@goneawol7498]

So true…,well said. My favorite is “oh but these things experience an earthquake every time they go down the road,”SO does my truck….and this is more money than my truck…! If you know this, design accordingly.

[@RichardQuaid]

Imagine having to slow down just because you're towing twice the weight. I don't wanna!

[@Jeff-and-Joe]

@@evanmartin7809 Cars and SUVs are unibody, not body on frame. Not even comparable design principles.

[@newenglandrvadventures]

“I wouldn’t call it a failure when it can be repaired” 😂 4:34

[@jonathanbell5561]

Yes. His lawyers coached him well to never agree it’s failure.

[@stevenjefferys10]

I studied reliability engineering for my MSc and you'd be amazed at the debates that occur on defining what a failure is. You would think that it would be a simple thing, but alas, it's not. However, I agree with you here, it's a failure (which is not defined dependant on its ability to be repaired or not).

[@paulavery366]

Marginal design, lack of testing, poor management, no will to improve. They will pay dearly for their incompetence.

[@davesantos2514]

"But did you die?" -Lippert

[@newenglandrvadventures]

@@davesantos2514 😂

[@porthole2]

It is not a 2" laminated with styrofoam wall that fails and causes the frames to crack. Don't recall how my Heartland toy hauler wall was attached but I know my DRV is not side bolted. The frames crack either because they are 'built to specs' (which are not spec'd enough) or the steel fails or the welds fail. Frame cracking with DRV's happen often enough that that band aid approach is to tell users to get a $3,000+ air ride hitch to soften the blow on bumps. Bottom line is the complete trailer package can't travel across the country with risking frame failure. Similar to when the rash of spring hangers and or springs were failing - who made those?

[@mikesnifferpippets3733]

I think if they had independent suspension on the massive rigs the damage could be reduced greatly. But they also need to go back to the drawing board on steel thickness and where they place gussets. Even if it adds another 1000lb. The customer will just need a bigger truck and that’s not a bad thing. It’ll hopefully keep people from pulling with undersized tow vehicles.

[@porthole2]

@@mikesnifferpippets3733 DRV's (except toy haulers unless ordered) have independent suspension.

[@SpykersB]

⁠​⁠@@mikesnifferpippets3733absolutely agree with u! I think that's the way it should go! 💯. But tell the rv manufacturers they can't make f250 barely towables anymore? Right? And then the f250 owners r screaming they got nothing to barely tow!! 😂🍻

[@SpykersB]

@@SonarTravels"...They can say NO" ? 😂 that's like, here baby in a high chair eat this spoon of stuff cause it's good for you! Baby says no way cause that's not what i want. So ok, solution is don't feed baby because they won't comply. Baby dies n Lippert dies, so is that a win win?

[@Fireman9ify]

It appears any minor damage could lead to failure of the chassis. I think in previous videos the VP was not sure of the loading to the chassis. You would think that providing additonal reinforcement to the potential failure area,s would be reasonable. This assumes that the chassis is not the intial failure point. Once the chassis fails the superstructure is bound to become detached. The failure will only become evident when the superstructure(walls) starts to move, so what comes first the chicken or the egg.

[@BigTruckBigRV]

I don't disagree with you at all here. Minor damage seams to due big potential damage.

[@lorennnorwood8757]

I was thinking the same thing

[@k-mparker]

Why not install some gussets in that area to reenforce that area??? New Horizons and Spacecraft do. So, now these issues are on the front burner, Lippert should immediately work with the manufacturers to strengthen the weak points. Sure, it’ll cost a few xtra $$$, but a whole lot of problems could be mitigated.

[@SpykersB]

⁠​⁠@@k-mparkerhave u watched all 3 videos? Rv manufacturer says what they want. Rv manufacturer is concerned about the weight, how do they advertise f250 towable if the thing weighs too much? The engineer guy says in one of the vids yes they can beef up the frames, but the rv manufacturer does not because it adds more weight. Lippert is delivering a product as requested by the manufacturer. Now let's assume Lippert is at least welding the frames together properly and quality checking. 🍻

[@Fireman9ify]

@@SpykersB you make a lot of assumptions. In one video they stated they didnt know what superstructure was being added to their chasis, in another video they state the chasis and superstructure must work together as a unit. How can they design a chasis if they don't know the loading being applied to it, and how can you state the whole structure transfers loads as one unit if you don't know what the superstructure is. It doesn't make any sense. The owners should be dealing with the manufacturer of the RV not the parts supplier.

[@ScottVanArtsdalen]

I think the biggest flaw in these interviews was that you were answering the questions yourself as you asked them. I would prefer a format where you asked the questions and then silently let the engineers answer the questions with no prompting from you. It just made it feel like a canned, softball interview. Both sides, RV Manufacturere and Lippert, should make a concerted effort to resolve this problem before the class action lawsuits show up and force an unpleasant resolution for everyone. I'm talking voluntary recall on the part of the manufacturers and advice by the frame suppliers on how to prevent frame/house failures in the future. Come on guys, work together on this.

[@clmeycar500]

To all the critics this on this video series, tell me you didn't learn something new about this issue...a better understanding what is happening. IMO, JD is the first to attempt to get answers from the involved manufacturers that truly understand the design. Good job in providing answers to questions that many of us have but do not get the opportunity to speak with other than customer service representatives. That said, JD please continue pursuing the best information possible with the major RV manufacturers.

[@Rick-x8h]

They had the questions before hand, all soft questions, they knew it was coming and had time to have answers.

[@BigTruckBigRV]

​​@@Rick-x8hI'm not saying you're wrong. But understanding that getting an audience with VPs at ANY major company regarding a topic as touchy as this one would be difficult but more likely impossible for a KZbinr...I wanted to at least ask some good questions that I knew they would answer.

[@davidkendall6801]

They explain what happens but not how the frame can be made stronger. That needs to be discussed.

[@davepellegrino2033]

@@BigTruckBigRV VP is just a title. They aren't anyone special. That lady looked like she didn't even want to be there. Her answers were not even answers.

[@jonathanbell5561]

I learned manufactures are using influencers to propagate their blame shifting theory (say it enough it’s true) to blame the end user ahead of the coming litigation. It’s a liability strategy.

[@GAlan-nn6mu]

I see JD still loves to be the smartest guy in the room.

[@goneawol7498]

Gosh Sir, would have been nice to hear Lipperts engineer answer some questions, could’ve sworn you were paid by Lippert…. I wrongly expected an interview, what we got instead was a monogram by you about what your opinion and interpretation is…..

[@MikeFields-g7b]

Retired mechanical engineer/engineering manager here. There is a certain amount of obfuscation/ liability shifting going on here. Lippert frames should be resposible for establishing the long-term structural integrity of their frame by conducting proper finite element analysis (FEA) of their frames based on the design load(s) given to them by the manufacturer. This should be INDEPENDENT of the shell structure. Done properly, FEA on the structural steel frames would show the high-stress areas, the amount of flex in the frame and include the projected fatigue life of the steel used in the frame. The shell would then reduce the structural load on the frame; giving a certain amount of additional safety factor for things like impact loads due to potholes. The MANUFACTURER of the RV should be responsible for conducting their own FEA or hire a consulting firm to do the FEA for the RV assembly. This would include the Lippert frame, the manufacturer's shell structure and the connection method between the frame and the shell. The RV manufacturer should design their RV shell for the predicted frame flex provided by Lippert's FEA and incorporate the proper materials and/or mechanical structure that would allow for the flexture of the frame without cracking the shell exterior or interior. As an engineer, I would not be comfortable working at Lippert without FEA analysis for the frames as stand-alone structures. On the other hand, just like the Chief Engineer said, they cannot be held liable for the construction methods of the RV manufacturer.

[@paulavery366]

Bet they have cut engineering costs to the bone and don't care.

[@squiglybeagly7401]

I was in the heavy truck industry for 15 years supplying complete chassis to our customer. Our welders were certified and had to be recertified after a certain time. One of the test they had to pass a bend test. They would weld two pieces of metal that was prepared for them. After the weld was completed and cooled the metal was bent with a press. If the weld broke before the steel snapped then it was a bad weld. If the welds are breaking then there is not enough penetration between the pieces of metal. I have heard that there is a lot of turn over in RV manufacturing and I would be curious about their training records and welders certifications. If the steel is cracking then it is bad steel or under rated for the weight it is carrying. I would like to see how they attach the sub frame to the chassis. It seems like this is where this interview was pointing the finger.

[@terremolander5243]

I have past two code tests and they require skill and quality steel. At 8:02 in the video shows the frame isn’t strong enough for the job. When you drive the road there are many challenges. Pot holes, uneven roads, stress of driving with wind hitting the trailer, etc. 10:33 talks about the totality of the frame structure. The Lippert employee has been well trained to explain a poor quality design and build. 😢. Thanks for the video.

[@BigTruckBigRV]

​@@terremolander5243honestly, it probably comes more down to the fact that they have 600 welders in just this one facility that makes fifth wheel frames. Probably thousands of welders to manage the number of companies they supply to. It's hard enough to find five extremely good welders in the city. Imagine having to find thousands.

[@madman9404]

It's not just the 5th wheels that are experiencing issues. It's also the travel trailers tongues buckling. And the brackets that hold the suspension that are bending. But, Lippert says that it is isolated events then blows off the consumer. I've work in the steel manufacturing field for 26 years and have dealt with engineers that will sell you a ton of fluff just like this one is. Bad welds,cheap Chinese metal and poor design is what it always comes down to.

[@jaubry71]

The stated they use domestic steel.

[@mikesnifferpippets3733]

They can say whatever they want

[@robertl9065]

They do but you just don’t want to believe it. Your minds made up.

[@JIMPETERSON-n7i]

@@robertl9065-- I've seen some of the thin metal just tear apart -- there are voids in the edges. If that is American steel, their processes and quality control have taken a major dive as well. :(

[@freedomisnotnegotiable]

@@jaubry71 that’s probably one issue here, if you want really good steel you have to get it from China, they have the best and most advanced steel mills!

[@mikewest272]

JD 90% of the video Engineer: 10%…

[@nickurmston6404]

Pretty much every KZbin video I've seen on frame flex was remedied by a Lippert in-house or in-field welder fixing existing frame welds and also adding extra metal to reinforce the structure. Your structural engineer buddy makes it sound like it's not their fault. Using domestic steel is good, but I recently had to reattach the underbelly plastic in our drop frame area. I added extra self drilling screws and couldn't believe easily they went through the I beam.

[@JIMPETERSON-n7i]

Clearly, if that is renowned 'Made in Merikuh' steel, their process and quality control has taken a deep dive into the dumpster as well. :(

[@mikehare2605]

It depends on the grade. They can make a tin can that rusts out in a week or one that will last decades. It is all about the specs.@@JIMPETERSON-n7i

[@freedomisnotnegotiable]

If you want to buy cheap steel for a high price you go with domestic. If you want cheap steel for a low price you buy overseas. If you want quality steel for a high price you buy OVERSEAS!

[@JIMPETERSON-n7i]

@@freedomisnotnegotiable-- Sounds about right! :( And given a recent massive steel frame failure of a large building under construction at the Boise airport, I guess we know where they sourced their material. :(

[@DillonPrecisionFan]

So, something to understand is how are the RV manufacturers attaching to the frame at the front. The holes in the Lippert frame are at the center of beam height...from engineering classes the stress is theoretically zero there...top half in compression and the bottom half in tension (bending beam theory). So, what is the RV sidewall structure in that area? Is it a 6" channel section to match the frame and hence have zero stress in the center of the section? The second aspect is lag bolts, not really a great fastening method. I don't design RVs or frames, but I would think you want high stiffness in the joint...no movement, in order to have the frame and super structure work as one when carrying the load. Much like trucks get larger and more wheel nuts as you go from F150 to F250/350 to F450/550, you need the increase friction and stiffness to carry the heavier loads...it is all about friction at the joint between wheel and hub. In order to transmit load to the super structure, you need friction at the joint, lag bolts trying to apply that friction force seems like a poor choice to me...threaded nut and bolt would be much better. They could even look at some fancy aerospace fasteners for more "blind" or "flush" installations.

[@PittsWithAPurpose]

So my question would be that if they know that this is happening…why are they not resolving this so that this does not happen? Why not reinforce where it's necessary so that it's resolving this issue? And how is the consumer to know if something inside of the frame is moving? It seems to me that it's an issue between both the chassis maker and the manufacturer of the RV. This is crazy.

[@JIMPETERSON-n7i]

Bingo!

[@johnclancy7607]

Learned a lot seeing the frame and the explanation of how the walls are attached. The first 2 episodes made me gag with your softball questions and continually trying to give them outs. If I had to take a drink every time I heard water intrusion I’d have missed the end

[@BigTruckBigRV]

Questions or questions that viewers submitted. They weren't softball, even if you think the answers were.

[@haroldmiller5810]

I think you have sold out to Lippert! I am completely disgusted with your cave-in!!!!

[@MikeBaumann-n7n]

ok all fine and dandy, but who fixes it and who covers it ?????

[@JIMPETERSON-n7i]

You do! That's the brilliance of their deflect and deny strategy! :(

[@Patrick_Armendarez]

Notice JD is saying more than the engineer. Okay that’s fine. At least this video tells you where the weak spots are and if the manufacturer doesn’t fix as they should, at least you can take some preventive action before it gets too bad. I’d like to see a video on how to proactively remediate this substandard design. I’ve seen videos where they use cheap wood to drive screws in to connect the wall vs. metal or better wood. Also maybe we could strengthen the frame more to be able to endure the substandard work of the manufacturers not properly securing the upper frame attachments. I think JD has to walk a fine line in these conversations, but happy he is doing them as we are getting better information.

[@TwistedNutsStudio]

Agreed. JD should have let the engineer explain, and if answer not complete...ask again. I was somewhat agitated .

[@BigTruckBigRV]

This video was shot AFTER the interview when it was me and engineer walking around. When he pointed out specifics to where the issue was happening and why, I got excited to capture it.. hind sight would have made me as more questions. My bad

[@Patrick_Armendarez]

No concerns. It was just an observation. Your analysis and description is very easy to follow and understand. He was good. You are just better in your analysis.

[@goneawol7498]

Has to be on the take somehow…

[@Patrick_Armendarez]

@@goneawol7498 I am very appreciative that he was able to get these made. Very helpful and we should all be supporting him. My guess he knew he would get some negative comments as it goes with the territory. I wish GD would offer to do the same. Also, I'm in contact with Lippert and they are being very helpful.

[@gfmucci]

There should be a way to attach the 2 sections of the frame to have stronger attachment points so the whole thing won't be as dependent on the walls and roof without impacting other design elements.

[@BigTruckBigRV]

I think to some degree there will always be dependency on both parts working in unison. But I do agree at the attachment process should be vastly improved

[@pif0514]

Watched all parts of your frame flex videos. Not impressed at all. Here are a few questions that should have been asked (and hopefully, still can be answered): 1. What structrual analysis is Lippert performing when designing a frame? Do they perform any FEA? What safety factors are used? How do they account for dynamic loads (e.g. pot holes)? 2. They mention fatigue. What fatigue life are they taking into consideration? Again, is this done with FEA or simple hand calcs? 3. Welding: What weld procedures are they using? Do they use certified welders? What type of NDE, if any, id done on the completed welds? 4. Failing lag bolts: Water damage/or delamination is unlikely to cause failing lag bolt as they are bolted to the Al studs of the side wall. I am calling BS on that one. But what is really causing these failing lag bolts? Heavy impacts (e.g pot holes)? High stress area where upper deck connects to riser too weak/underdesigned (again has to do with structural analysis, fatigue, and weld quality)? Something else? 5 The 5th wheel shown at the end has a Curt Air Ride pin box. Would installing such a pin box help alleviating at least some of these issues by softening impact loads (assuming same overhang)? Would be great if you could follow up with Lippert and get some answers to these questions🤞

[@BigTruckBigRV]

This is absolutely coming soon.

[@robd6709]

Notice the frame is a Rhino frame. These frames are inherently more rigid at the pin box and don't allow for the flex that pushes the upper deck floor into the coach when the trailer is on the hitch. The 1621HD frames are very weak in this area and this is why people are seeing the interior damage and wall fasteners failing. They also fail because the wood that fills the aluminum tubing within the walls is cheap pine or worse. The OEMs don't drill pilot holes before installing the lags which causes the wood to split so it will never hold a fastener.

[@MudmanMedia]

It is nice to see a company like Brinkley, taking things to the next level to make sure the frames on their toy haulers are made to handle the weight and road use!

[@kingjames8283]

I didn't get the answer I was looking for but did notice something alarming in the chassis (the foundation) that did get my attention. To build a strong long lasting house, you need a good built foundation but in the video I'm looking at the chassis frame welds and they are not solid, just a spot weld here, and there, and there but not welded all the way through to make two pieces one solid piece. So I'm going to hypothesize and say that due to weak weld joints, there is frame-flexing going on as the RV is pulled down the road, and this excessive flexing is causing the RV body superstructure to move in relation and come loose, and in places separate from the chassis. I don't see a strong adhesive bonding between the body superstructure and the foundation chassis. Bolts and screws can only do so much but they will never stay tight with indifferent materials in perfect marriage. RV manufacturers need to start using chemical bonding adhesives like the commercial trucking manufacturers do to create a tight impermeable bonding, virtually indestructible between two indifferent materials such as aluminum to steel or fiberglass to steel, or vinyl to steel whichever method RV manufacturers use to build these units onto the chassis foundation. This type of bonding between the body superstructure and the steel chassis frame will mitigate flexing altogether and eliminate this issue once and for all. I hope RV manufacturers see my message and take note. And lastly, I want to see Lippert Components use full welded seams when joining steel pieces together instead of partial welds as I saw in this video.

[@dmalley1597]

Exactly... Just like building a McDonald's Big Mac - Lippert engineers a product based on the absolute minimum requirements. Riddle me this - if Lippert management gave their engineers an extra $250.00 dollars per frame to work with what would their engineering team come up with? Lippert engineers are given an absolute price point to meet and they reduce every single facet of frame construction to meet that price point.

[@JIMPETERSON-n7i]

@@dmalley1597-- Sad but no doubt true. :(

[@jonathanbell5561]

According to Lipert it’s the drywall that holds up the house, not the foundation or framing. Or maybe it’s the wallpaper?

[@SpykersB]

Yes, yes, yes! Come on Lippert walk us through your welding n convince us you're doing it right! 🍻

[@charlesc5983]

What about the cracked frames we’ve seen on all the KZbin videos . Where steel actually has a crack in it.

[@BigTruckBigRV]

Possibly one of the following.. a few even. Frame issue, RV manufacturers issue, Disconnection of components, possible damage.

[@Factory400]

Consumers: We want an exceptionally long, tall, and spacious RV with 8 slides, 32 batteries, 300 gallons of fluids, endless cargo.....and we want all that to be lightweight enough to be towed by a 1 ton consumer pickup. Also, we are very cost sensitive. Manufacturers: Sure thing. We can cut the cost and the weight all over the place and deliver something that looks AMAZING at the RV lot. Please, however, do not drive it around. Conclusion: Manufacturers are giving the market what the market has asked for. The market did not understand what they were asking for and made the mistake of thinking that $75-$100k is a lot of money for a well designed and manufactured travel machine made in modest quantities. To make a strong, reliable 40+ft RV - it will be overweight for a 1-ton pickup. It will also need to be substantially more expensive to be interesting for any manufacturer. There are likely too few people that would pay for the specialty heavy duty units that can travel around trouble free for years and years.

[@BigTruckBigRV]

And here lies the likely problem my friend. Very good points

[@TNTRVing]

Glad you mentioned the Usage of non-Lippert-Approved Pin Boxes in the Text. I was wondering how many of these "Frame Flex" issues are caused by people essentially adding a long lever to the front of their RV. Thanks for the video! Tony

[@user-ktm890rider]

I’m hearing that Grand Design is having more of these frame issues than other manufacturers Hopefully they’ll address this & save their reputation 😎🍻

[@anbigal764]

I understand. Most of the people commenting understand. What the common theme is people are trying to understand why after decades of advanced technology and processes were still having problems. I feel that it has come down to price and profit

[@jtet8126]

So what you are saying is that the frames are meant for putting a cardboard box on it instead of a six figure trailer home on it. So how do you explain cracked frames throughout the length of the frame?????

[@kingair350]

What happened to the corporate handler?

[@gcslade]

JD became the handler 😱

[@BigTruckBigRV]

​@@gcsladeactually, I was just excited to see a visual explanation of what detachment is. From a technical standpoint, I did learn about a symptom a lot of folks are probably having.

[@Shawna_Howie]

Thank you JD for this video series. It has explained a lot and made a lot of sense. It’s definitely provided us with things to watch for with our RV. It’s unfortunate how many people that don’t have an engineering degree seem to think (and self-promote) that they know more than someone that is in fact an engineer. Anyone that does any kind of professional work knows you can’t just go screaming and yelling at someone and expect to get in the door, let alone get answers to important questions. I appreciated all of the information you were able to get for those of us that were willing to listen. Job well done.

[@Jr-sr8iy]

That frame should be built stronger an not relying on the wall side to give it strength. Frame is definitely underbuilt

[@BigTruckBigRV]

I would also love to see that, but I'd also be interested in how much it would weigh and how a good potentially affect a floor plan.

[@waltfriedrich7631]

Watch some of the videos where they have made repairs. If they added 50lbs to the area it would be a lot@@BigTruckBigRV

[@trx350]

I have to ask about the intro. With all the videos on you tube out there regarding this, where has anyone in the videos ever said that the side walls not connected caused the issue. It seems kind of ridiculous that the first gusset back from the hitch is really underrated. Why wouldn’t you over engineer the most critical part of the trailer? Over engineering doesn’t mean adding hundreds of pound but maybe putting more plates connecting the tubular steel for more connection points. I understand that the complete unit all work’s together but Lippert seems to be too reliant on their customers being competent. Seems that this is done so the blame game can begin when there’s a failure.

[@stephencantbewrong8250]

I agree, the load path should be followed to the main frame with no sharp corners. A gusset in the corners reduces the chances of cracking at the stress riser.

[@BigTruckBigRV]

I agree to a degree but I also wonder if that area is engineered specifically for the dynamic loads that will transfer to it while towing, would a gusset just eventually crack or cause material fatigue and eventual failure? This is a question that was on my mind but I forgot to ask while there.

[@coreycodling6661]

So the cardboard box on top of the trailer is supposed to keep it from cracking. Next up … “A” frames bent in half explained by overfilled propane tanks

[@mikewadams1]

Ok, we now understand the mechanics of the issue of frame flex (failure). Now how do folks get it repaired and who bares the responsibility of the repair? In my mind if it is as few as is being stated one would think that both the RV manufacturer and Lippert would team up to get the issue resolved. From all of the videos I have seen both have been playing dodge ball. And that is where the perception issue comes into play. There is one manufacturer that is leading in this and we all know who they are. Not to say that there are not others, however this manufacturer is getting the bulk of the bad press. It would benefit them to step up. I for one would not even consider them as I once did. They have done damage to their once good reputation. I think haulers in general need to be redesigned as they are beasts.

[@BigTruckBigRV]

This video was purely for information. Reach out to whoever you find out is responsible.

[@mikewadams1]

@@BigTruckBigRVAnd it is greatly appreciated JD. Josh also put out some good information on this and it is important to understand the issue and you have provided some great insight and understanding. Thanks JD!

[@SpykersB]

⁠@@mikewadams1Josh 100% blamed the customer and i called him out in it. This was a video he did before JD did these 3 videos. And he did not discuss anything about sidewalls detaching from the frame, it was all user fault 🙄.

[@goneawol7498]

CLASS ACTION…!!!!

[@stevenjefferys10]

Agreed, I am at the point in life where my wife and I are deciding on selling everything where we live and either full time RV'ing (which would mean buying a bigger rig and truck) or moving to a warmer country. That "one manufacturer" was the leading candidate. Definitely not anymore. In fact, I don't think that I'd buy them at all at this point. Sad because they once seemed to have good customer service, but clearly do not anymore judging by all the videos I've seen on this issue. To me, both the manufacturer and Lippert have blame to take here.

[@billb6606]

I think the problem is these rv's are designed to travel maybe 20,000 miles in their lifetime not 20,000 to 30,000 miles a year.

[@ronbennett6083]

Thanks for putting this out. There is a lot of talk about this topic. It's good to have some factual and reliable info.

[@johnnylightning1491]

Something that struck me watching this video was the complete lack of any gusset or diagonal at the point where the horizontal piece that holds the pin meets the vertical structure that attaches to the rest of the chassis. This looks like a problem waiting to happen to me. Just one guys opinion.

[@RushSimonson]

Great videos of you telling Lippert engineers what is wrong. LOL. Did you graduate from MIT?

[@boyeatsworld-vr9ci]

This is so annoying. I'm going to run it through an analysis. But jd definitely said 10 words for every 1 they answered with. This is called leading the witness.

[@aubie3425]

Grand Design is the american manufacturing story. Are we really surprised by this? These are not cars that heavily engineered. These trailers have so many designs and pumped out from the factory with very minimal engineering. The grand design flexing debate is just so typical. New company founded on quality. People flock to brand because it is almost impossible to find quality thought out designs. Grand Design is bought by giant corporation who proceeds to cash in on that reputation and slowly morph it into just another crappy trailer. People buy grand design thinking they are getting quality then find out it is just another poorly engineered camper. Giant corporation that owns grand design doesn't stand behind product worried the news will tank their stock price.

[@TrailToughTrailers]

If I'm listening correctly... by claiming both trailer frame AND superstructure need to be permanently attached in order for the Rig to work properly... this allows one or the other to point the finger at the other. So, if that's what's happening my two questions are these.... 1st. WHY would anyone join responsibility with another company? And 2nd being that doesn't make ANY sense to me, why not just build the frame to with stand frame FAILURE in the event the coach builder fails to properly attach their box to your frame? In short, how much more would it cost to make the frame BETTER to with stand the problem $1500, 2500, 3,000??? I'm thinking most people would pay the difference OR go with a frame builder who is honestly willing to stand behind their product regardless of the box builder does. Here's another idea... would Lippert be willing to give us owners the data that tells the box builder what THEIR responsibility is so when our rigs are opened up to view the damage we can point to where the box builder failed to keep up with what was/is expected by Lippert? This reminds me of Ford and their Pinto gas tank problem. As I recall the expense to fix... AVOID gas tanks exploding was about $15 at the time of manufacturing. Ford was in it to squeeze every dollar of costs out of it to maximize profits... this seems to be EXACTLY what the RV industry is doing.... $100,000 rig and we are talking about 1-3% increase to build a bulletproof frame???? COME ON, MAN...... (Bad joke in that somewhere)

[@TrailToughTrailers]

Question... Does anyone of these "engineers" spec a grade 5, or grade 8 "lag bolt" or just will just any old bolt work to join the walls to the frame???? He said She said BS at best!

[@BigTruckBigRV]

I agree with many of you points.

[@paulavery366]

You don't think Ford, Boeing, Toyota buy major components? The difference is they are engineered and managed effectively.

[@MSG3726]

You have to give Lippert credit for actually allowing you to do these two interviews. At this point it seems like a lot of finger pointing is going to continue. I feel bad for all the people who have these issues currently. Seems to me this is the first step of many that will help future RV frames (not fixing current issues). Thank you JD for taking on this issue.

[@GaryUrlacher-nk4sx]

Lippert is starting their damage control as the issues are going viral.

[@JimmyShawsTidbits1]

So welding gussets on both sides of the raised frame is not required? Can't understand why they would allow a high stress area to exist without some protection just incase.

[@stevengrey1948]

I appreciate the interview, it was calm, informative and it asked the important questions. The only thing not fully addressed is what Lippert does to ensure they are producing a quality product. What are their quality and process controls on the welds themselves. However, I will admit I haven't watch the other videos on this subject perhaps it is in there. I have a few more to work through. The only other observation... There are a lot people involved in this system to make sure everything works correctly. The Frame supplier, RV Manufacture and End Customer. If it was me... I would ensure the frame could support itself without needing assistance from other factors. I am tempted on my Reflection to drill all the way through the side wall and use a bolt and cover the exposed bolts with a decorative piece to cover the protruding bolts.

[@lkj0822g]

When he tapped on the side of the beam and it resonated, that highlighted the main problem in that the manufacturers are more concerned with weight than they are about structure. Cob together a structure that looks fancy and has a lot of bells and whistles and when it starts to fall apart in a few years, tough cookies.

[@stephencantbewrong8250]

It has been a little while since I have contacted both Grand Design and Lippert, but neither company would tell me how much deflection is too much when measuring the pin box rotation between loaded and unloaded conditions. I measured how much the nose moved/deflcted when hitched the trailer and they said it was fine, but would not tell me when I should look into a repair. Apparently I am to keep asking until they say otherwise. I agree with a lot of people, that there should be a requirement to provide a maximum pin weight limit. Maybe a reference website showing information concerning current and RV's up to 10 years old? Then we can make known adjustments to our weight and balance.

[@davepellegrino2033]

Hmmm...that would have been a great question to ask the lead engineer!

[@tech3nc]

I think video 3 is the best one and Tim an JD actually get to put it all together. To me, it is all you need to know. I still feel the vast majority of this issue falls on the RV manufacturing side of things. There is only so much a rig can weigh before you are going to have to move to an HDT to tow with. Like I stated in a previous comment, this whole process needs a top to bottom review. I appreciate the effort that went into this. Thank goodness for video 3!

[@davidaverill7041]

Excellent video! Thanks for showing and explaining the flex/motion that can occur and what should be natural.

[@larrycouch1379]

Looks very underbuilt

[@michaelfinley9988]

And your credentials are?

[@larrycouch1379]

@michaelfinley9988 it just don't look like there a lot of guests your gust a yes man

[@larrycouch1379]

If they are so great why are they breaking ​@michaelfinley9988

[@larrycouch1379]

And the guy for lipped go back to video 2 when you ask about the stell where it comes grom he did not have a good answer

[@Luv2camp316]

I would need expertise in metallurgy to say yes or no. I checked and I don’t have one. Misplaced my engineering degree too. Looks are deceiving

[@StacyAnneH]

I'm seeing people who just bought their RV, Took it home and already having cracked frames. One guy had 17 breaks. And they say, get it checked right away, but then they are told it's going to be 6 months or more. THEN they have tow it to the factory which may be over 1000 miles away. Some are taking so long that a year goes by and they still can't use their brand new RV.

[@charlesblizzard718]

Did anyone hear what grade of steel and the gauge of the steel?

[@gerryclarke5265]

One hole in the center of the beam is not enough for attaching the wall, two bolts should be the absolute minimum, three would be the correct number. The wall will not provide enough support if the chassis is too weak.

[@rvretired6933]

WRONG The sidewall is not a part of the supporting structure. This is not a unibody construction. Lippert is avoiding responsibility. The front portion of the 5th wheel should be ridged. I think the DOT needs to get involved and inspect all RVs. RVs are licensed by each state department of transportation. I know I am old but we need to remember Ralph Nader and the Nader Raiders. He did a lot to get consumer protection in the auto industry. Now is the time to make the RV industry responsible for all RVs out there.

[@msheron]

I believe manufacturers are also placing boxes on frames that are not designed for it due to cost savings from going up in a frame that is designed to hold that box. I do believe it is the RV box makers and the frame makers constantly pointing fingers back at one another rather than one of them taking responsibility. The frames are meant to flex a bit because if they were totally rigid, the failure in a RV in a normal ride to a campsite would be in disrepair in one trip due to the roads we travel on. I believe the correct calling is frame failures rather than flex! I would have loved to hear the actual engineer talk more!

[@gabelanz9188]

So, this is obviously common issue, what are they doing to improve the design?

[@PeeterPuncher]

Looks like neither of them have a solid explanation for the frame issues and are grasping for any for anything. It comes down to too heavy of a trailer for the frame it's on.

[@lmrad5750]

Too bad Tim just stood there with his hands in his pockets. You asked and answered your own questions. I thought Tim was going to be in the hot seat due to the many issues people are having with frame flex. There was no mention as to why they are turning people away instead of offering to repair their cracked frame or what they are doing to correct the problem. I still enjoy your videos.

[@mikewhite2403]

Ya know, while this does make some sense. It also seems like some of the people that are having this frame flex issue have had no damage, not overloaded etc. Just normal wear and tear. Maybe RV manufactures should say something like, only for weekend use. But if I'm paying these disgusting high prices manufactures are charging it freakin should be able to travel all over the country multiple times. My bet would be it's the RV manufactures who are at fault (according to Lippert) with the way they are mounting things. It sure would be nice for some of the RV manufactures to step up and let you interview them, at least they could try and defend themselves rather than hide. Maybe Brinkley would let you talk with them since everyone seems to say how well built they are.

[@creativegrain7699]

JD - These few videos have been really interesting to watch! Thank you for taking the time out of your normal work to do this for the overall RV community. We have a TT and want to upgrade to a 5th Wheel so this whole frame flex thing caught my attention. I think there is legitimate frame flex with some customers and that sucks for sure. I hope no one gets hurt and issues get resolved, I also think there are hundreds of variables that attribute to this issue. I always view our TT as a whole as a sort of living thing, there is a ton of flex and movement. The fact that Lippert is welcoming these interviews and factory tours shows a ton! It shows they stand by their products and are not trying to hide anything. I work in corporate America but in a different industry and these two folks are doing a good job answering questions. Some think this interview is planned, ah yeah of course it is lol. They wanted to make sure they provided the correct info on the questions. Leaders at that level do not know everything, contrary to belief. They are surrounded by experts and SME's who help them understand issues so that they can make solid decisions. They seem very confident on their frames and I bet they have rock solid legal contracts with the manufactures. Just one guys opinion... I'm not an attorney but do work with attorneys every week. Looking forward to the factory tour video!

[@jasoncrandall73]

The walls are bolted, screwed etc to the frame. The issue is when the walls are no longer sufficiently attached to the frame. When that happens, things move more freely than designed. Lippert does not attach the walls & roofs. That is the RV OEM that does all that in their factories.

[@jamesholmes9493]

Been around the trades for along time and alot of engineers. This is the standard pass the buck and Blame someone else BS. Here is a check.

[@jkollar109]

Huh.....so a frame or chassis cracking, splitting, bending, breaking, etc is "not a failure. Because it can be repaired." Hard to argue with logic like that. Told me all i needed to know about the purpose of this video.

[@Metal_Stacking]

Thanks for making sure i will never own a 5th wheel.

[@SmokerBBQ]

I suppose they could over engineer the chassis and make it super heavy duty like the guy said as an example of what we see with trailers made to two skid steers/excavators. The problem is the added cost will be passed onto the customer (which will not be received well) but also it may lead to what you used to tow with your truck can no longer safely carry it. There has to be a balance between engineering it to meet specification and providing it at a cost that the market will bear. I certainly understand them saying the walls are an integral part of the overall strength of the structure, and dispersing load throughout. This is no different than designing a house, commercial building, or a bridge. All of it works in unison.

[@davewhite119]

Great job , I think though that untill rv'ers really pay attention to weight, balance of load and terrain there will continue to be problems such as this. I use CAT scales every time I begin a trip, and especially if i make changes to my normal load configuration of the truck!

[@danieldubois3707]

Recently there seems to be a greater focus on the lag bolts as being one of the common tell tales of there being other issues present. I beginning to feel that perhaps the lag bolts maybe more of a primary root cause of the issue rather than a "symptom". If the lag bolts work their way out/loosen or fall out, does it matter whether there is "water damage", "overloading" or bad roads (although one or more probably don't help). Therefore, the frame cracks may be more of a result of the lag bolts then visa versa. If so, IMHO, this should be a more palatable remedy for the manufacturer to implement, i.e. replacing and/or beefing up the bolts and/or use alternate methods. I saw one video that a repair firm attached long flat straps on the outside of the rig and then used actual bolts with nuts on the inside to ensure a more permanent connection.

[@BigTruckBigRV]

I agree, and I think the industry needs to move to a better securement method if that is truly a major factor in these issues.

[@waltfriedrich7631]

My first 3 trailers were made by Skyline. They used elevator bolts it attach the walls to the outriggers. Very strong bolts with heads that distribute the load @@BigTruckBigRV

[@luminousveiws]

Lag bolts are not vibration resistant!

[@wasson65]

The frame relies on the side wall to carry load, like the truss on a bridge. The rv manufacturer knows this. Punching holes in the side walls weakens the side walls, they loose rigidity, the frame tries to carry all the load, and over time it’s going to fail because it’s overloaded. Double opposing slides and washer dryer in your bedroom are creating those weak spots plus additional load. You can’t cheat physics.

[@neoturfmasterMVS]

Should talk to Grand Design. They have years of experienced and lived frame flex. "Its a feature not a bug" -Grand Design PR Department.

[@romaldemgle5867]

That was a grate set of vidios . I hope pepole get it more now and under stand it better

[@mikesnifferpippets3733]

Yeah, don’t buy a big 5er. Just get a travel trailer and save the potential head ache.

[@user-xk2np8sd6o]

I would just beef up the whole frame. Just increase the total weight a few hundred pounds . It would be worth it to me. I had a 12 foot ramp door trailer with a week frame. Sheet metal distorted and frame broke and I never overloaded it . Better to build a heavier frame even if it adds weight compared to all the failures.

[@dstevens7614]

The frame is the foundation of the coach!!!! Make it strong!!!! Weld in supports and weld it RIGHT. Darn-it!!!! My rails frames to the rear of the rig tips due to no cross members on my triple axle 😳😖🤔. I had to install cross members . Let’s look at the frame it is 1/2 the thickness of 15 yrs ago so it twists!!!😮 pretty is good but at turning points in the road cause damage!!!!!!! Box frame and 3/8 thick steel box design is strong!!!!! My current “c” channel twisted … “RV means repair vehicle “ .

[@BigTruckBigRV]

If you have any pictures of these classic frames that used 3/8 in thick box tubes and 1/2-in thick beams please share them with me.

[@dstevens7614]

I sold the rv’ many years ago it was a “KZ” !!! In the years since I have spent more $$$$ with less quality.

[@dstevens7614]

My current toyhauler has very very thin metal for floor support only not strength, look at the pictures of the trip YOU posted in the manufacturing pre painting…

[@stana2z]

Bad INTEGRATION. Poor design on BOTH chassis and house.

[@kingair350]

So if there is no reason why someone has any frame issues why is GD adding more supports as a part of their repair. At 12:45 this guy blames the RV manufacturing.

[@mishafrog8786]

Having worked with heavy dropped fram trailors the wea/k point is the step from the flat deck to the upper pert kingpin , now on these lighter structurs as 5th wheelers the side walls enhance the rigidity of the step frame so if its not tied down and secured ridgid hence the flex and then the cracks as i understand of this blog, so in fact the home part / house build is the problem ? so as a lay person a simply fix would be to double up on the attechment bolts for very little cost which long term might save problems in the future, Grand Design whilst the main culprit at this moment in time it is happening to most 5th wheelers except the spacraft and other high end builders and whats the main differancys of the high end is WIEGHT they make them stronger , people full time in the high end 5th wheelers whilst most others are used just for weekends and holidays . -So to put it a little bluntly some fulltimes are doing it on the cheap ? with what is ment to be a holiday unit. Come to the conclusion Libbert build the chassis it is ask to build the OEM builders are selling the dream of you can use it fulltime when in fact its not meant to be at this wieght and price point.

[@jarrsong]

It would be interesting for the Lippert engineer to calculate how much thicker metal is required in that that pin box support to make the RV structure to be irrelevant.

[@jeffgerritsen972]

I doubt a one ton truck could pull the trailer, if a frame was built to not need the rv house to transfer stress away from critical frame joints.

[@jarrsong]

@@jeffgerritsen972I'd be willing to bet this is less true than you think.

[@RVcampingandAdventures]

What a great series, this video was most helpful. I really enjoyed Tim’s detailed explanations it’s obvious he’s a veteran in Structural Engineering and loves what he does. I think this topic just made Tim a KZbin celebrity in the RV industry! Thanks for bringing us this content, JD

[@Nobody_important_at_all]

I definitely think that front end of that toy hauler frame is underbuilt but one point that many people missed completely. That frame that was built, was specified to be built that specific way by a manufacturer. More gussets, thicker steel, more bracing etc. Lippert would build them that way if that's how their customers, I.E. someone like Grand design told them to build it. If a manufacturer wanted more strength or durability in their frame, they'd order those frames specified that way, its just that simple. You missed one golden comparison JD. If you're still in IN. Maybe show what a 40 foot toy hauler frame looks like compared to a 40 foot full profile frame.

[@lindabrown2211]

I've noticed fifth wheels with third axels/ tires turning corners or backing into spots seem to just drag, slide or scoot that third axel tire around the corner until its straight then it tracks properly. With that being said,my question is what stress level might this scenario cause to chassis and structure?

[@waltfriedrich7631]

that is normal on tri axle trailers of all kinds

[@F450FTW]

What about the videos of the Lippert frames that are missing welds around the pin box? I'm willing to bet you'll never get a direct answer, only diversion.

[@kmonto1971]

5:08 - this is the look that speaks volumes...

[@berthaduniverse]

Thanks for this series, and cudos to Lippert for "standing up" and letting you in. IMO, the panel system in this "design" is not, and should NOT be a crucial part of the superstructure. Those materials are not whats needed for repeated dynamic loading/unloading. This SHOULD be more like a transport trailer. I'm sure, in coming years the gusseting and cross support members at that stress point will change, because.... Wait for it... This design is flawed! RV siding is not capable of carrying these loads, in these conditions, over any reasonable time period (say up to 20 years).

[@K_Dawg1979]

Awesome set of videos. Thanks for your time, and Thank You Lippert for your time !