Littlefinger's Mistake Science Update

So, if you tossed Lysa and a shoe out a moon door, how far would they land from each other?

[@IneffableFoxy]

George, please. We're calculating falling shoe velocity.

[@kovu1530]

Lmfao

[@chrisscroop]

And 4 years later we are still waiting for the other shoe to drop.

[@stupidminotaur9735]

but it was an interesting insight

[@taylortanner37]

I recommend the Meredith Gentry series by Laurell K Hamilton to help hold over till George's next book. Forewarned not a series for children but trust me it's a great series.

[@daeshawnmustard]

☹️

[@branjdj3464]

I don't think George took all of this into consideration. The shoe landed wherever he wanted it to land.

[@deathmachine808]

+BrandonIPwN "How many children does Scarlet O Hara have." As many as GRRM f*cking wants!

[@shdhfbf412]

@@deathmachine808 i still don't understand that line. What did GRRM mean when he said that?

[@duganrocks100]

@@shdhfbf412 I'm guessing it means whatever the author invisioned, as they make the story.

[@geoffwilliams6072]

...yeah neither do i... Lol loved hearing everything about this tho. And am usually on board with 90% of these videos/ideas

[@KrisCasey4]

@@shdhfbf412 he says that when asked if he’s upset about the adaptational changes made for the Game of Throne television series - in the book ‘Gone With the Wind’ Scarlet O’Hara has three children but in the film adaptation of ‘Gone With the Wind’ she only has one child - neither answer is more correct than the other because they are both works of fiction - pretty much he’s saying that the changes made by HBO don’t bother him because they are separate universes

[@CadaverJunky8]

What you failed to take into consideration is that the shoe WAS ASHARA DAYNE!

[@Kaepsele337]

+CadaverJunky8 Exactly, how can one not get that ?:D

[@mrnicebobby]

+CadaverJunky8 Yeah, the shoe was probably Azor Ahai. ...and now we're doomed.

[@catelyntully9494]

+CadaverJunky8 That was beautiful, thank you for the laugh

[@numb3r5ev3n]

+CadaverJunky8 Which of course means that it is now Septa Lemore.

[@SophisticatedBanjo]

It's a joke, but give Preston a slate of fan art drawings and a few convenient book sources and he could still make me believe it. The man is a wizard.

[@Mangs1337]

I wonder if George R. R. Martin watched this video and went "Holy shit, no way I thought about this"

[@GeekFurious]

+Mangs You can pretty much say that about 90% of Preston's videos. He overthinks things... imagine living with him... dear gods...

[@ThePooper3000]

+Mangs *George takes notes*

[@da_ghoul9432]

+GeekFurious imagine the debate at Preston's house on whether the TP roll should go over or under.

[@TheBurgerkrieg]

+Mangs George stated for a fact that he does not engage in fan theories, so...

[@watermellie]

+GeekFurious Waking up to that yummy voice every day, I'll gladly imagine that!

[@AdamBlack]

+Preston Jacobs, I see one large flaw in this. You are assuming the mountain isnt littered with old bodies and clothes like Mount Everest. Throwing people out the moondoor , seems a favorite pastime of Lysa. Its like their main entertainment in winter. Will every commoner really be scraped off the mountain given a proper funeral? I doubt it.

[@Lightsellful]

On the other hand, to give their ruling lady a proper funeral, it's not off to look through everything. It his also highly likely that she lost stuff falling, and they want to find that again. (when the Malaysian airplane was shot down over Ukraine, the corpses were partly naked too, because the seams ripped from the extreme winds. No that was way higher than Lysa, but the high Ladys in Westeros seem to be wearing not very tight clothing, or shoes, so I'd guess she actually lost most.) But even if everything was always carried away to get free cloth, the crucial point of an EXTRA shoe in that situation would probablynot arise, since it could have come there more or less anytime. Though in the end, collecting habits at the gates of the moon will be as Grrm decides.

[@willmosse3684]

Yeah, and the shoe wouldn’t necessarily have to have come from the moon door either. It could have come out of any window or over any wall in the castle or grounds. Stuff must fall from there from time to time. Or the sky cells.

[@Holypikemanz]

When I hear "combing the mountain" I think why anyone sane would comb Gregor Clegane?

[@dr.embersfield1551]

+Holypikemanz Well, he needs love, too :)

[@shanerooney7288]

+Holypikemanz I think Space Balls: "Comb the desert"

[@ottomoen]

+Shane Rooney "We aint found shit!"

[@drfaisalkamal1275]

He isn't some kind of savage

[@TheJR7360]

wow that dedication lol. Still calls to question why george would mention the shoe in the first place.

[@тито-к9в]

+TheJR7360 exactly

[@narsil1984]

+TheJR7360 Add many details, make a few of them be important, most lead to nothing. Basic storytelling...

[@tbeller80]

+TheJR7360 Because he loves to be descriptive. Flip to any chapter and you'll know exactly what everyone is eating, drinking, and wearing, but has nothing to do with the plot.

[@jamescasey3170]

+TheJR7360 It is a detail that illustrates the jeopardy that Sansa was in, that gives a sense of how close she was to going out the moon door. Picture any scene in any movie of someone almost going over a cliff and hanging on just at the edge. It isn't always a shoe, but there is always something, a stone, a piece of railing, a scarf, something, some object that falls away behind them to show how far and how fatal the fall would/will be. This loss of the shoe gives Sansa a detail to notice afterward and think about and share with us, the readers, so we can understand how she feels/is processing her near death experience. Could it be a smoking gun? Sure. But I'm of the opinion that the lost shoe has enough of job to do as an illustrative detail of the chaos, urgency, and jeopardy of the moment at the moon door, rather than a future plot point.

[@shanerooney7288]

+james casey well said.

[@da_ghoul9432]

We only know that Sansa was missing a shoe, not how she lost it, so maybe Lysa grabbed it and is holding it in a death grip.

[@matthewanstatt1913]

I think we're really over-estimating the significance of Lord Royce's men finding the shoe. Both from the fond way Sweet Robin speaks about the moon door, as well as the very existence of the door I would assume it is not altogether an uncommon means of execution in the Eyrie. Between the execution of any serious criminals via the moon door and the alleged reports of many prisoners going mad and flinging themselves from the sky cells, I would imagine the mountain below the Eyrie is not wanting for corpses. I would imagine, unless there exists some unspoken-of splatter clean-up crew, there are years and years of corpses of political and criminal prisoners littering mountainside. This, coupled with the fact that most of said prisoners were probably wearing shoes when they fell, would mean there are loads of shoes at the foot of the mountain. Royce's men probably wouldn't think much of seeing Sansa's But who knows. I'm probably wrong about half of this.

[@davidbodor1762]

Well, even if its literred with bodies, there are 2 main things one needs to consider. First is - There's no chance in hell Lysa's corpse would be left there. Nor any corpse that belongs to a family that has any influence really. Families would want the bodies buried properly after an execution. The second thing is - How many people that are executed would be women/wearing women's shoes? Executing women was a very no-no thing in real history for the most part. I doubt Westeros is that different. Finding a woman's shoe there would be strange.

[@bengrunbaum7197]

I'm probably wrong about half of this.

[@jirimachacek862]

Too bad for Lysa there wasn´t any haystack down there...

[@salvatore9600]

This is a quality comment

[@andrewlagno9482]

have we found the body yet? If so, we can assume there was one.

[@sarenorbless]

+Andrew Lagno when you fall from that height you do not find a body but parts. This video is BS Preston and his friend do not understand true physics and have all data need to determine considering factors wind - gust / mountain-hill side dynamics / poor people finding new shoes to use / who controls or what actually happens to people through the Moon door I do not thing The Vale has a CSI department.

[@sarenorbless]

LOL, yes this is not Assassin's Creed. Even than I still do not believe that shit like in the new Sony AC movie coming out later this year.

[@andrewlagno9482]

+Saren Black It was sarcasm, based on the belief that "if there is no body, no one knows she's dead"

[@rheinnon]

But how many Walltofells would that be? Another great video!

[@dr.embersfield1551]

At this point I don't even care if Preston is right or wrong. I just love his dedication.

[@VitorJTekkRodrigues]

Live and learn. Except if you're Lysa.

[@bore-osofmyr2539]

Vitor Rodrigues sick burn

[@Fornicis91]

I'd just like to note that on the A Wiki Of Ice and Fire (One of the few places I'd trust to be correct on ASOIAF trivia/facts) states that the moon door drop is 600ft or 183 metres, quite a bit shorter than the 500m that you had your friend run in his simulation, taking this into account would drastically change the results, and possibly any theories surrounding this, might be worth re-looking at

[@willmosse3684]

Good catch. I think the Wiki might have it wrong in this instance though. I generally trust it too, but in this case the citation it gives for the 600 ft figure is the Tyrion chapter in GOT where he is in the sky cells. He looks over the edge of the sky cell and sees there is only empty space until the way station Sky 600 ft below. In fact, in the chapter where Lysa holds Sansa at the edge of the moon door (before Lysa herself is pushed out by Petyr) in ASOS, Sansa looks directly out of the moon door and also says there is nothing for 600 ft until the way station Sky. However, Sky is the third way station and is already very high up the mountain side. It seems very unlikely that when people are pushed out of the moon door they land directly on the way station - this would kill anyone present at the way station and would be poor design. So, it seems most likely that a victim would not hit Sky, and so would continue past Sky to some point further down the mountain. According to the Wiki page on the Eyrie, the castle is “several thousand feet” above the valley floor. Therefore, the Wiki page statement that “The door opens into the sky and a six hundred foot drop to the stones of the valley below” is probably in fact a mis-reading of the text. It is possible someone pushed from the door would only fall 600 ft, but it is probably quite some way further, and anything up to several thousand feet. 1000m = 3281ft, so 500 to 1000m seems plausible to me... but then, I probably got half of this wrong...

[@Bronzite]

If we're going to dive into the dynamics of Sansa's shoe and Lysa's body coming off the mountain, point-of-impact probably isn't the most important consideration. A human body, even a living one (as Lysa presumably was at the beginning of impact with the ground) won't bounce significantly upon hitting a relatively flat surface. The same cannot be said of the shoe, which would've had quite a while (dozens of seconds in the 1km drop) to accumulate horizontal motion. The shoe would bounce and tumble, potentially quite far from the impact point. Also, while we don't know the distance from the Moon Door to the eventual point of impact, we know from Tyrion in Game of Thrones (p397 in my copy) that Sky sits about six hundred feet below the Sky Cells. The Sky Cells probably aren't hundreds of feet below the throne room, so we can really upper bound the height of the Moon Door around 700 feet, or around 215 meters, above Sky. That said, the Giant's Lance (the mountain the Eyrie sits on) probably isn't a gently widening peak, but rather the account of Catelyn's accent makes it sound as the mountain is quite steep in many places. The Moon Door may open onto a drop that is dramatically farther than the fall from the Sky Cells to Sky. With such dramatic changes in terrain elevation, a deviation of even a few dozen meters in impact point could cause the shoe to tumble or otherwise escape the mountain. Without knowing more about the topography of the area under the Moon Door, it is likely impossible to say. Given the huge range of uncertainty, I agree with many of the other commentators here; an analysis of the physics governing the body and the shoe is unlikely to yield a result; an analysis of the narrative is far more likely to build a compelling case one way or the other.

[@Bronzite]

+John Brewer If you don't mind being a little grim and disturbing (if you do, this probably isn't the series for you) it is, in my opinion, far more likely that Nestor would've found out about Littlefinger's betrayal from Lysa. A six hundred foot fall will kill you, sure as a bullet to the head, however, it won't necessarily kill you instantly. Yeah. Think about that for a minute. If the "aim point" of the Moon Door is well known and guards are stationed near enough to see somebody hit and recover the body promptly, it is possible Lysa Arryn was still alive and some kind of conscious when they reached her. Nestor wouldn't have been standing right there, but I bet he would've talked to the guy who was. Lysa Arryn's final act could have been to finger her killer. Certainly, the scenario has a Martin-esque brutality and horror to it.

[@MaithamXX]

You shouldve called this ''series'' Littlefingers little mistake

[@SirDrinksAlot]

+muhatamtack Man Now I wanna make a video called Littlefinger's little finger.

[@silvanapopa]

+SerDrinksAlot/Acana his middle finger to everyone though

[@donegalchick09]

Thankyou! Your videos are seriously getting me through a really difficult time, weird to say, I know but it's the truth! Been listening to them in my car on my way to work and even helps me to relax at night! Your theories are awesome and make a lot of sense!! Thankyou and keep up the great work!! ✌️😄

[@obbeachbum69]

The shoe is stuck up in the top of a pine tree, trust me.

[@MoebiusPan]

"all units are SI/metric for scientific superiority" *SI MASTER RACE*

[@ErikaGabela]

Whether I agree with Preston's ideas or not, I have been reading ASOIAF a lot more carefully because of these videos and it's been so much more fun. :)

[@bore-osofmyr2539]

Erika Gabela true true!!!

[@MrPrincepop]

With George's writing nothing is mentioned without a 'purpose' to an end. Thanks for the update and dedication.

[@rafaarrojamds]

Just awesome. Now make a science update on Balon's fall ^^

[@akrybion]

+Rafa Lopes How much since woulod there really be? The drop was probably 50 m or less, yeah it was a storm and all, maybe 90 km/h winds or so, but I guess there are so many rocks beneath Pike it wouldn't really matter, where he lands. And we aren't really told about the currents in the sea. Although I think Balon didn't die by an accident. Although I don't really suspect Euron.

[@manband20]

I have been blinded. With science. Well done, Mr. Preston.

[@chadsummerchild7625]

For those of you that don't know: A Chekovs gun is a seemingly insignificant detail that becomes massively important later. There have been Chekovs guns in ASOIF before.

[@sweetyft]

Thank you for the update! It's great that you take the time to read your comments and reply to them.

[@sflr38]

I get excited every time a new video drops! Thanks Preston.

[@Tomatosoupcanman]

When tinfoil goes too far...

[@TheOrangeDuke01]

That's a lot of work for a story that will never be finished.

[@didntknoicouldchangethis]

I really like the artwork on this channel, the SOIAF stuff...

[@tedkord9091]

Can i just say that i love the level of engagement you have with your community. I always get excited whenever is see a new video from you. Keep doing this

[@danevans6340]

Admirable pursuit of empirical ends in literary criticism. You just Bertrand Russelled the Eyrie.

[@nh5264]

I give you props for your attention to detail, you really care about your theories. If I ever write a book I should get you to scrutinize it and make sure it all makes sense.

[@Imjustaguy123]

This is both crazy and awesome, and the reason i enjoy this channel.

[@SereneSurrealism]

It's also possible that Lysa held onto the shoe. Since she was thrown out alive and there is nothing to suggest she let go of it (which she probably would let go of it if she were killed before being thrown out)

[@alessandrofiore2962]

Mythbusters?

[@rebaivs189]

+Alessandro Iubris Mythbusters, Westeros Edition

[@shanerooney7288]

on todays episode of Myth Busters: - how far would the shoe fly away from the body? - can dragons fly? - is winter _really_ coming?

[@mistermelorious]

...you took the time to work out the mathmatics, commitment right here.

[@tgrygo]

What if Lysa is found clutching the shoe in her hands?

[@intboom]

The shoe could be clutched in Lysa's dead hand in a death grip, especially considering how enraged she was

[@SirDrinksAlot]

I love that you still dont give up the theory but take the science that might be involved and put it on the side. You are the best dude like really I love your work! You inspire me.

[@Christopherjazzcat]

I love that your asoiaf theories include simulations from an aerospace engineer! Preston, you are my favourite KZbinr.

[@rainbeaumanson4718]

"If not for Petyr Baelish it would have been Sansa who went spinning through a cold blue sky to stony death six hundred feet below, instead of Lysa Arryn"

[@sambennett1757]

The shoe is actually Azor Ahai and is currently bieng hidden in Ashai with Quaith

[@HereBeDragonsYT]

PJ, another great vid. I love that your theories. I dont always agree with you, but you are well reasoned and articulate. Very fun.

[@kumisz2]

Now, that's how you back your statement up.

[@papawheely4137]

Another issue would be that they may not clean the area below very thoroughly. What I mean is that there may be shoes from past executions which would probably cause the extra shoe to go unnoticed. Do they ever mention cleaning the area ever. It's been a while since I last read the books.

[@fictionmyth]

You said that the mountain would block the wind. Which is absolutely true... normally. In the picture you showed us, the mountain has a round shape to it. Which means, due to aerodynamics, that it could possibly cause winds to traverse the mountain and blow,seemingly, away from the cliff face. Just sayin'. I'm obviously not the words most informed person on this and I'm probably wrong about half this.

[@burtan2000]

Your diligence is noteworthy. GRRM has shown solid understanding in many subjects. I suspect this is mostly the result of him being so well read. And common sense. The shoe would probably fall within the same general area. The team recovering Lysa's body would sizable, maybe even 15+ guys. But it's the plot-associated reasons that are the true proof.

[@Y0uKnoWh0]

I'm really happy you did this.

[@bram_412]

Myranda Royce is up to something, there was never any doubt. And you've convinced me she probably also expects Alayne isn't who she says she is, and that the truth must be something juicy. But I think Sansa's departed shoe and bare foot were just meant to underscore her nearness to the void and her tender vulnerability. Thanks so much for the update, though, shades of XKCD over here!

[@robertmaybeth3434]

this is a world with dragons, ice zombies, giants, reanimation and magic. Should we be worried about science here?

[@davidbodor1762]

Magical elements added in don't really affect non-magical elements of the story. This is a horrible argument. The existance of a fictional animal or creature or whatever, doesn't make unrelated things also unrealistic. For example, just because some people have warg powers, doesn't mean people are not affected by gravity in this world... Besides, GRRM is usually woried about science. He was after all, a sci-fi writer for the vast majority of his life. Genetics in particular are an obsession of his, even dragons he specifically said his dragons have only 2 legs and 2 wings because there's no real life animals with 4 legs and 2 wings. He cares about what's "realistic". Obviously dragons aren't real but it's not a binary real or not real choice. It's a slider, a gradient, something can be more "real" than others, or perhaps I should say, more believable than others. Would he go so far as to calculate such things regarding the velocity of a shoe vs corpse? I'd say he'd go only so far as for the event to have a minor chance, as a writer you don't really need more than that. Unlikely events happening in a story are usually fine. And it's not like he's always correct about everything. He's a writer not a scientist. But he does make an effort at least. It's partly why the world feels more believable and relatable than other fantasy series.

[@MatthewKoonsComedy]

This video is a hilarious way to stick it to all the trolls out there. Good for you. I chuckled the entire time. I don't get people. You even leave your trademark disclaimer, "wrong about half," at the end of every video, but once again great vid. Keep them coming.

[@AmateurSurgeonThe3rd]

I KNEW one of your friends would be an aerospace engineer

[@SomethingImpromptu]

Can't wait for the Aegon IV series! Keep keeping it real, Preston.

[@michaelmirau896]

If it's their job to clean up a somewhat regularly used splatground every time its been used then they would probably be very knowledgeable about how different things of different weight fall.

[@Rex_Crackerz]

it's kinda gruesome to think that all this trigonometry is used to calculate the path of a person WHO IS STILL ALIVE falling down the mountain

[@erikzimmer3054]

George saw this and had to rewrite all of Sanaa's chapters.

[@Jsullivan58]

That's some dedication Eagerly awaiting the Aegon II Blackfyre video

[@katehunter538]

Even without a big distance between the shoe and the body, there's a huge chance that the shoe would not be found. It's a small object and not what the searchers would be looking for. It could easily be concealed by even fairly low-growing grass. If it landed on snow, differential warming of the shoe and snow by sunlight would bury the shoe pretty quickly. Besides which, even if they did find the shoe, why would they assume that the body and the shoe fell at the same time? There's no evidence to associate the two objects with a single event.

[@Duke_of_Lorraine]

The show landing right on Lysa Arryn ? I'd bet GRRM made it the other way around : first the shoe lands, the needle-heel" first. Then Lysa Arryn's face is impaled on the "needle-heel".

[@beccarmagie]

Much like John green you appear to have a personal mathematician on hand. This bodes well for future videos and I can't wait to watch them.

[@permiebird937]

If the Eryie is like other medieval castles then people in the castle toss rubbish into the moat all the time. There is no garbage service, so it gets chucked in to the moat. Since the Eryie doesn't have a moat, people would toss stuff over the railings into the open air. Nestor's people would not only find Lysa and 3 shoes, but bits of Sweet Robin's broken chamber pot, and buckets of vegetable peels and manure from the oxen at the basket lift. The landing point would be so spread over a modest distance and full of all sorts of detritus. Unless Nestor's people searched the Eyrie's miden at the gates of the moon daily, they would not know when the shoe was dropped. Of course GRRM may have a big plot twist planned with the shoe, and may not have thought about where the Eyrie's trash goes, so we won't know for certain until TWOW.

[@enacte]

Why is it even relevant if they find a shoe. It's just a shoe, there's no telling who it belongs to or how long it's been there or how it got there. It's not like Sansa wrote her name on it.

[@itstrbo]

hahhaaha science update classic preston

[@michaelmcmahon5623]

And WHO KNOWS how Sweetrobin's teke plays into this?!?!?!?!

[@chlowery23]

LOVE that you stepped into Math on this update. However, I dont think anyone will find the shoe....and let me tell you why. The Junk Heap. Sweet Robin has been making things "fly" from that moondoor his entire life. We can also assume that other memebers of the Eire have also tossed a thing or two (or who) from the door at regular intervals for years. The bottom or base under the door should look like a junk yard. Who would know if the shoe was lost this week or five weeks ago. To easy to explain away, in my book. Thanks and keep them coming!

[@stxyn]

Preston, The further the shoe falls from Lysa's body, the less likely it will appear to have dropped at the same time. The two objects could easily appear to not have anything to do with each other.

[@TheVargr]

What you havent taken into account is the Sky cells. Alot of prisoners have jumped off it over the years and the mountain would have been covered in corpses (with many shoes). The Eyrie was a tiny castle afterall so the Moon Door and Sky Cells are not to far apart.

[@BravesSheet]

Preston, you're the Sherlock of Westeros.

[@deathmachine808]

I getz me some Jacobs before bedtime!!! Gotta know about that shoe!! :)

[@MelloPintor]

One has to love the dedication of this guy, we love you man!

[@chuckking3899]

Whether they find the shoe or not, unless it's found with Lysa's dead body right on top of it, there would be no reason to connect it to her fall specifically. It could have fallen before, or, depending on when the search is made, after, or ended up down there by some other mechanism. If a random shoe is found up to a kilometer away from a moon door victim, there's no reason to assume that it is connected.

[@kinko143]

True enough, the calculations are on point, but then again, from a psychological point of view, you already said that if they are "not exactly looking" for the shoe they might ignore that even if they see it, and just shove it off to the side, but then again, you did well on proving our point. DEDICATION

[@TheHarlemGhost2]

Bro I love your videos can't wait for your aegon piece

[@SKALLRAG]

You forgot to mention one of the simplest reasons as to how they might be able to find the shoe. And that's the fact that the Moon Door has been used before. Those in the area with past experience could make educated guesses on where any object may land. The problem with Gurrm is that he's a fantasy writer. And by that definition fantasy worlds are usually exaggerated in their proportions with the real world to make them seem "fantastical". I mean let's look at the Wall for a second. In one book Gurrm describes wildlings trading shots with crows up above, while in the next he remembers how stupidly high the wall is and backtracks to say that the arrows barely made it up there.

[@magicalsimmy]

Another thing to take into account - it's possible other women were thrown out the moon door, so there might be a scattering of female shoes at the bottom. That's assuming they just leave the bodies there to rot of course. Who knows, there might be a clean-up crew who gathers the smashed up bodies for burial.

[@sweetpotatofries99]

What about the terrain at the bottom of the mountain? The shoe might be lost in a pile of rocks, in a mud puddle, vegetation, many things that would conceal an unlooked-for shoe but not a corpse.

[@milanmarinkovic7962]

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

[@viniciusmj88]

Preston, I usually do not agree with your theories and find them way distant from ASOIAF reality as I see it. This theory of Nestor and Myranda, however, is a strong one and made me think about Myranda's conversation with Sansa in a whole new way. Nevertheless, the shoe thing did not convince me. I think GRRM was merely conveying the danger Sansa was at that moment when he wrote the scene with Lysa. My point being, the shoe is unnecessary for your theory. Nestor and Myranda might have their suspicions for a multitude of reasons; the show would only serve as another clue to the truth rather than the catalyst for suspecting Littlefinger's story. The rest of the theory keeps its strenght even disconsidering the shoe entirely.

[@NamhadiNdemufayo]

Not gonna lie, I've gain a lot of respect for you due to this update. Making a video that points out some flaws in your reasoning? Takes some commitment to the truth. Or to this fiction. Whatever, it's still awesome that you've posted this.

[@NielsMulvad]

Thank you Preston for listening to our questions towards the last video, I appreciate it, especially the calculations that I am going to run myself with my friends... Now I like to point out one (in my opinion) very important fact, this is a fantasy world, the Eyrie could be much taller depending on how strong the mule is... the wind could be very different, there is magic all over the place who knows... Again thank you for your video.

[@shylockwesker5530]

Maybe they found Lady Lysa WITH the shoe in her hand. I mean, this must have been the last thing she was trying to grab on to.

[@Mattocon757]

it goes with the poetic irony of the cinderella juxtaposition - sansa who was so in love with fairytales gets a similar treatment to cinderella only this time it makes her guilty/complicit in a crime, instead of finding the special prince that doesnt exist. it makes sense that GRRM would use the shoe.

[@CraigTheJOKR]

The Eyrie is located on the giant's lance next to the ghost torrent of Allysa's tears, in AGOT the mountain is said to be 3 and a half miles from bottom to top, with the Ghost torrent located on it's massive western shoulder, if you assume then the torrent is 3/4 of the mountains size then the torrent is located 2.625 miles above ground, the Eyrie supposedly is next to that; meaning the Eyrie is located at 4.224528 kilometres above ground.

[@tjc67]

The drop from the Moon Door is 600ft (183 meters) in the book if that helps with the math

[@stucummings]

I'm digging the science aspect

[@vickils9571]

Isn't it highly likely that all kinds of things could be found on the ground that have gone out the moon door, either by accident, or because they have been purposefully tossed out?

[@monicaboukhalfa]

I think it comes down to how frequently people are being sent out of the moon door. How many shoes might be down there....

[@godfreyofbouillon966]

So basically it is plausible and realistic to have it either way. So it all depends on how Martin wants it and no amount of theorycrafting helps here.

[@Dglenn2185]

This seems to be the main method of execution in this part of Westeros. When the search party arrives they will find other objects from other deaths by the same means. These artifacts will be weathered and decomposed. A wealthy woman's recently lost shoe will stick out. I like this theory, it reminds me of a darker version of Cinderella.

[@sykosirkusklown]

in order for this plot point about the shoe to work, you would also have to ignore the likely situation that random trash like shoes, other clothing, food, weapons and armor, household goods, or any number of things could have fallen from the castle over the years. With years of random crap falling and strong winds scattering it all over the place, they could just not bother picking up random clutter on a regular basis, and the shoe could just blend in with the rest of the garbage at the bottom.

[@blockflight]

one thing to take into consideration is that the shoe might land on the cliff and not complete fall down. because maybe a rock is sticking out.

[@nietzschesmoustache3585]

Also, 180 meters can make a big difference, especially considering a terrain as diverse as mountains and highlands.

[@michanycz7166]

I'm impressed. Well done!

[@Planet_Neptune]

It's 600 feet to the rocks. Says so in a Sansa chapter in AFFC. Not all the way to the bottom of the mountain, but to the rocks below the Eyrie.

[@hartjohnson2975]

I like the science analysis on this, but there is another issue... has no other woman ever fallen/been pushed through the moon door? Might crazy Lysa not be the sort to throw things at people when she is mad? I can think of a half dozen OTHER ways a stray shoe might be found under that door. Then it is possible some sort of forensics could determine the shoe was not Lysa's (size) or had not been there long (wear). I guess my only point is to say YES, and THEN SOME to your conclusion we just don't know enough.

[@dragonmasterlance123]

Maybe its just me but I think it requires just a little suspension of disbelief.

[@xgonne]

This is also assuming that a) Nestor's man who spots the shoe immediately connects it to Lysa's fall and not some other moon-door or clothing malfunction mishap which happen prior to Lysa's fall and b) that the shoe doesn't bounce oddly sending it further away or get snagged higher up the mountain and c) that Nestor's men would even consider the shoes pertinent. One is assuming that gathering all the shoes would be important at all. Your theory stands without the necessity of the shoe. Nestor's suspicions of Little Finger are strong enough to warrant his questioning without it.

[@rubensebastiani2871]

According to your friends calculations the landing spot could be easily 1km2. I don't think that after every time the moondoor is used some search-party is going to 'clean' every inch of it. The place would be full of leftover debris. Hence the odds of finding the shoe and making the connection to a possible killer is unlikely. Only if Lysa was holding the shoe until right before the collapse, the shoe could be found in her near surroundings.I think Lyse died only on inpact with the ground, so it is perfectly plaussible that the shoe is found.

[@johndominicamabile]

Did your friend look up what the coefficient of gravity is on Planetos?

[@whinoxiii4223]

R + L = Shoe?

[@PurpleAlogia]

I think that they constantly must drop stuff out of that moon door. I don't remember if they said anything about leaving it open occasionally. Maybe not. But if they did, they certainly would have lost a shoe or two. Or maybe knights or quills or bottles or any medieval trash. Or if Sweetrobin is pissed off by a book's ending or his favourite character from his favourite TV series had died - wouldn't he have let the book or the dvd fly? So, what I'm trying to say is: there must be quite a lot of stuff down there - not only Lysa and a lady's shoe - which, of course, Sansa could have lost at any other time. That's why it would be very hard to use the shoe as proof that Sansa had killed her aunt. I can't imagine that there is something like a Master of dropped Objects who runs around, combing the Mountain (:)) and collecting the stuff the lords and ladys of the Eyrie have dropped over the centuries.