LM 29.1 [REACTION] NIGHTWISH - The Carpenter

Réaction spontanée à la chanson "The Carpenter", en deux versions (studio et live) du groupe de métal symphonique Nightwish.
== Vidéo de la pièce originale :
• Nightwish - The Carpen...
== Vidéo de la version Live :
• Nightwish - The Carpen...
Cette vidéo fait partie de la série 'Lectio Musica' commencée en avril 2020.
== Présentation de la série (français et sous-titres anglais) :
• LM. 00. Introduction '...
Passionné de musique rock sous toutes ses formes, mais aussi de gospel, de blues, de musiques québécoise et traditionnelles, le Fr. Guylain réagit spontanément, analyse et commente une chanson d'un artiste contemporain.
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Commentaires et suggestions sont les bienvenus.

[@Pentele]

UNIVERSITY OF EASTERN FINLAND Philosophical Faculty, School of Theology Jani Kaaresalo: Dead Boy's Rosary. Religion in the music of Nightwish 1996-2017. Abstract Nightwish is a Finnish metal band formed in 1996 in Kitee. Nightwish has released eight full-length studio albums and several singles, live albums and compilations. Tuomas Holopainen, the main songwriter of the band, grew up in a Christian family. The ancestors of his mother had been Lutheran priests for many generations. Holopainen felt that his childhood was safe and warm, and he was allowed to find his own path in the world. He has been interested in fairytales, fantasy literature, nature and the surrounding world since his early years. The lyrical themes of the first three Nightwish albums were mainly focused on fantasy subjects. Few songs were written about Jesus Christ, such as The Carpenter and Gethsemane. On later albums Holopainen began to write about darker themes, such as betrayal by people close to him and losing the innocence. The ultimate point of this darkness was the album Dark Passion Play, which was released in 2007. The firing of the band's previous singer Tarja Turunen was a huge influence on the lyrics. On the other hand, in many songs Holopainen wrote about "mother" and referred to the planet Earth as "Gaia", the mother goddess in ancient Greek mythology. The latest two albums marked a new dawn after the darkness. Imaginaerum was sort of a rollercoaster ride into a theme park. During this time Holopainen became interested in scientific authors like Richard Dawkins. Those authors gave him a lot of inspiration, which resulted in the album Endless Forms Most Beautiful. Thematically the album was a journey into the evolutionary history of the Earth. Richard Dawkins himself took part in the album on a speech role. Some fans of Nightwish were upset for this, because Dawkins had a reputation as an enemy of religion. The band members felt that these reactions were silly and based on misconceptions about Dawkins. Although Holopainen greatly valued his childhood family and his Christian upbringing, his own path eventually lead him into atheism. Earlier he had seem himself as a Christian and he had prayed regularly, but now he felt that by doing this he was just following others. Now he saw himself as an atheist, but with an agnostic flavor. He could not know for sure that God did not exist, he just did not believe in him. Still he made it clear that he did not wish to offend believers with his personal opinions. Holopainen, as well as other members of the band, stated that the critical views on the album were intented towards fundamentalists, who refuse to accept scientific facts. Keywords : Metal music, new atheism, evolution theory

[@GuylainPrince]

Well, I did not have all this info, but I have to say that I came to the conclusion that is was pretty much like that. Excellent and solid info.

[@mantailuaa]

Guylain Prince OFM Here is the original ProGradu as PDF. You can read the abstract in whole but unfortunately rest of the gradu is in finnish. And just to point out, this is only one persons own insights about religious things in Nightwish songs, wether they are true or not, we dont know when it is not coming from the composer/writer himself. epublications.uef.fi/pub/urn_nbn_fi_uef-20180470/urn_nbn_fi_uef-20180470.pdf

[@gabriel.bardac]

Everyone has to start somewhere. That was the "beginning" for Nightwish. It's like a letter of intent, like a cornerstone. It has a meaning, it has character. I think that's why it Is appreciated by fans, because looking back at this song, they have no reason to be ashamed. Obviously, at the time it was composed, Nightwish had not yet formed the style that established it as a symphonic metal band. Here is another aspect, that of a document of archaeological value: in order to get HERE, they had to go THERE. People evolve, civilizations evolve, metal bands evolve..

[@GuylainPrince]

Yup!

[@akashvankessel1249]

I love this song. There is no other Nightwish song that strikes this particular cord within me. A tender, still, comforting place like a mother's embrace. Definitely moved by this song.

[@Amaranthos2]

Man, have they ever come a long way! That said, this song should be the biggest encouragement there is to new aspiring bands...if the Nightwish of today started here, where might they be in 30 years?

[@GuylainPrince]

Great point!

[@mattimelanen2418]

Thanks for the reaction. I remember Carpenter being the one song I could sign along with ease, so there's that 😁

[@wmlye1]

Ha! I'm reminded of Midnight Oil - Peter Garret really couldn't sing (at least not in the classical sense) so when the crowd sang along we didn't feel awkward about it!

[@GuylainPrince]

That is great ! A NW sing-along song!!! There are not many of them.

[@johto]

Aah, Buenos Aires 2018, kick ass concert ! 🤘

[@GuylainPrince]

From what I have seen until now, I agree!

[@loshmi87]

This song carries a sentimental value. It's not their best, even the music video is odd. It's also OK not to like every song an artist produces. But as I commented before, they have so many surprises, between a slow jazzy tune, popish ballads, songs featuring native American singer and so on. That's why it's really worth listening to their whole discography. :) They even made a movie, which is crazy and worth watching too.

[@GuylainPrince]

Yup! I go slowly, and I will get there!

[@Idefixu]

Guylain! I do not know if you've heard about Plamen Dimov, a Bulgarian musician who married a Finnish woman and moved to Kitee in Finland in 1980's where Nightwish is from. He had an important role in supporting and encouraging Tuomas, Jukka, Emppu and Tarja. One of Plamen's projects, before Nightwish was founded, was Chameleon. Tuomas played the saxophone. Plamen played the violinparts on Nightwish album Oceanborn in 1998. Info about Plamen on Wikipedia. A couple of interesting interviews with Plamen: "kentapress Plamen", "metalshockfinland Plamen"

[@GuylainPrince]

WOW ! Great info. I loved it! Thanks!

[@mpz6153]

I was in that concert in Buenos Aires. Excelente!. I am from Córdoba Argentina. Saludos!

[@GuylainPrince]

Lucky you!!!!

[@Ceehaa1]

Guylain, thanks for this reaction, even if it is not a positive reaction, it's an honest one. But without saying a word, it was already clear from the expressions on your face.😄

[@GuylainPrince]

Ha ha ha ! I guess so!

[@fjnw]

Bon soir Guylain, honest reaction, thank you. I actually can appreciate the song, it is just a liitle bit too elegant and too simple for a symphonic metalband. But now I do understand Tuomas much better when he said that -while going trough their back-catalog in preparation for Decades-: "What on earth were we thinking at the time?" Like discussed before, Decades is not their 22 best songs but their most relevant songs. I think The Carpenter is relevant in the sense that Tuomas after this song decided not to sing ever again, not even backing vocals. So this song is not going to be on my playlist. It is ok-ish, it's got an easy to get chorus, but there are loads of NW songs much higher on my list. But then again, it's part of their history. Songs like these are part of their development and have made them the Nightwish their are now.

[@GuylainPrince]

Yup! This is it, I guess!

[@dieseldog00]

I for one am glad Tuomas stopped singing b/c he sucks at it, especially on this song. Marko was the best male singer in Nightwish and he would have been much better with Tarja. I was very sad when I watched Tarja's farewell presser that day. I still like her voice but Floor has my heart and emotions now.

[@nightwisher751]

Hi Guylain, Thankyou for your honest appraisal of the song, Tuomas said " I remember how I was. I was nineteen when I wrote that song and I was in many ways a different person. In many ways the same. But back then I was still more of a believer than a skeptic and now things have turned other way round and it’s just human nature, I think the original official video is interesting and would perhaps have added to the discussion with the carpenter implied to be Leonardo da vinci, designing a flying machine, The whole band were to be included, but it was felt Tarja in her red dress in the field was to be alone.

[@GuylainPrince]

The song, clearly, does not talk about Leonardo. They presented that image to make a "diversion" to the topic of the song, no doubt.

[@nightwisher751]

@@GuylainPrince Yes my friend of that no doubt, I think it was symbolic, In the video the ending as he spread his arms with his ornithopter it depicted a Christian symbol. Leonardo was credited as the first person to explore the option of flight. The video in my opinion had many symbols, The white feather and the story of the Angels and your loved ones passing over, or the feather from the dove, Said to be the holy ghost. The candles said to be the light of god. Guylain you will know far more than me on these matters. As for the songs meaning this interview with Tuomas explains fully, Credit to Jazzy Enjoy your day, look forward to your lyric interpretation. www.hardline-magazin.de/2019/10/31/interview-tuomas-holopainen-nightwish-i-love-reading-stories-i-love-different-cultures-histories-all-that-kind-of-things/

[@GuylainPrince]

Yes, the symbols, of course are familiar to me. I thought you were saying that the "carpenter" was Leonardo. No problem. I have not watched it yet, but I will. Probably this coming weekend!

[@calanor4130]

To be honest, I think I've listened to the original version half a dozen times since I got hooked on Nightwish some 18 years ago. It's just not very good at all, in my opinion. Now, the 2018 version is a dramatic improvement in my eyes and Troy as the lead singer made a whole lot of difference to me. Some call this "pop", but I'd have to disagree - I'd rather consider it a "light prog song" and I feel that Troy's vocals add a certain "Gilmourian" vibe to the song (I'm a Pink Floyd fan since what feels like forever). I really like the instrumental parts as well, although I feel that they could have been extended. The chorus is another matter, as I find it weak both in the original and the 2018 version. The 2018 version is far from my favourite Nightwish song and it's not at all representative of the band, but I do listen to it occasionally - and that's certainly noteworthy considering how I've avoided the original recording throughout the years. Thanks for yet another excellent and honest reaction, Guylain!

[@tarmotyyri6733]

Must say that I agree with you. Fortunately Tuomas "saw the light" and left the singing to others more suitable.

[@GuylainPrince]

Love your comment. Great addition to the discussion!

[@johannessilver8653]

The original music video is still the best of this song and most genuine too.

[@DjKorppi]

Maybe Tuomas picked this song not because of its musical value, but other, sentimental, reasons. It is their first single, first commercial release, first music video. (It reached #3 in Finnish singles chart).

[@GuylainPrince]

That, I understand. I makes sense!

[@AlexisRanae]

One of my favorite songs

[@GuylainPrince]

Ah? Interesting!

[@marek3707]

What can I say? I wasn't surprised by your reaction because mine was very similar when I heard this piece. The song is appreciated by NW fans and sometimes I wondered what was wrong with me - maybe I can't hear what other people hear? But listening to her today with you, I see that I am not alone in my opinion. You said this song would not keep you with the band and I agree with you. I would say even more - if I hadn't known this song and had heard it by accident somewhere - I wouldn't have guessed it was Nightwish. Maybe after a short excerpt where Tarja starts looking like herself, but I don't know. Musically, there are some very interesting passages, but only passages. Oriental elements seem very distinct and here you confirmed my impression. I was curious how Floor and Troy would perform this piece - I listen to this version a little better, but I'm still far from delighted. I don't know, maybe it is a damaging opinion, but I have the impression that even masters cannot build anything captivating on a weak foundation. Even for a band like NW there are times when weaker songs - it doesn't take anything away from them - it just happens, they were still at the beginning of their journey. I don't skip this song when I go back to an album or a concert in Buenos Aires - it's part of them, but that's all. As I wasn't taken by the song, I never focused on the text, I would love to hear your analysis, because it may shed new light on this song for me.

[@GuylainPrince]

I agree with you on almost everything. One person could have save the song : go back and listen the 3rd verse, the one sung by Tarja, alone. She brought interest by her capacities in interpreting lyrics and melody that are not "top". That is the sign of a great singer. Right there.

[@strogaa]

Thumbs up for your honest reaction, sir :-) I never really liked the original. It was not "bad", but compared to the whole rest of the Nightwish catalogue... until I heard the Buenos Aires version, and I realized, that this song has its charm. Still not my favourite one, but way better than the original. Of course, the harmonies of Troy/Floor/Marco sound a lot more professional (and their voices fit so well together) than back then with Tarja/Tuomas. The carpenter was their first single, and Tuomas once said, that the moment, when he heard, that this single had reached the national charts (if I remember correctly, it was in the Top20), he felt, that "something's happening". He said, that this was the point, when he realized, that Nightwish could be more than just a "fun project". I mean, when they started, they even didn't want to play live gigs and tour, imagine that from today's point of view. So this song has its special place in the history of Nightwish.

[@GuylainPrince]

Yup! Now I understand that, even better with your message. It is a reference, in their history.

[@Hamish_Whitehaven]

this song may be bad but for me its a song of my youth... love it :)

[@GuylainPrince]

Ha ha ha! Bad? Well, it is a song of THEIR youth as well, and an important milestone in their career!

[@derisoirementvotre3007]

Frère Prince, votre réaction est honnête, et j’en suis très proche. Ce fût leur premier single et c’est la raison de sa présence sur la sélection de Tuomas (c’est d’ailleurs lui qui « chante » sur la version studio). Je suis un grand fan de NW mais comme tout groupe, ils ont leurs « casseroles » et ce titre en fait parti selon moi. D’ailleurs vous n’aviez pas à dire que vous n’aimiez pas, ça se voyait tellement sur votre visage 😂. Quand je recommande ce groupe à des personnes, jamais je leur dirai d’écouter d’urgence ce titre, même la version de Buenos Aires... Je suis un immense fan de Metallica depuis 1984, et leur « album » StAnger est une daube absolue. Être fan ne veut pas dire tout pardonner, si c’est pas bon, c’est pas bon, c’est tout et ça ne retire en rien le reste. Métalement vôtre

[@GuylainPrince]

Yesssss ! Totalement d'accord. Je suis un grand fan de Yes et de Genesis. Je suis très loin d'aimer tout ce qu'ils ont fait... et pourtant, leurs grands albums occupent une place unique dans mon coeur. Ici, pour un groupe que j'aime profondément et que j'admire, la magie n'était pas là. Et c'est tout. Rien de pire. Ma déception était que les mots me sont apparus intéressants... (et je le pense encore), donc déception.

[@wmlye1]

Salut Guylain! Long time no talk (I've been busy). When I heard that Tuomas decided soon after startng the band that he didn't want to sing because he was bad at it, I had to go back and listen, heard this song, and my reaction was more or less what you had, and I never listened to it again. The 2018 version is definitely the same song, but it's had a lot of bondo and sandpaper used to make it listenable, with a somewhat different arrangement and the addition of Troy (and Marko!). Not my favorite (i.e. I won't seek it out) but when it comes up I don't skip over it!

[@GuylainPrince]

You want to know what I think? Here it is : I thought the new members of the band would save the song, musically, and turn it into something great. Even the great Floor and Troy did not make it happen. I truly think, at this point, that the only one who could have save that song is ... Tarja! She was able to induce something in her verse and in the extro... for the reste, from my point of view, flat as the great plains of Canada!

[@RitaFMachado]

Guylain, I think you really are right in reacting in your mother tongue, our mother tongue is the language of our hearts hence the most pure and sincere. And thank you for your effort with the subtitles so we can ride with you, I speak and understand some french but not enough to understand everything you say.Regarding the song I don't like it very much either, but they were still finding their way and as such it's normal to slip here and there. I'm looking forward to your lyrics analyses. Greetings from Portugal.

[@GuylainPrince]

Thanks, Rita! Well, that is me, as natural as I can be while listening to music.

[@jacobm.vantuijl]

Thank you for your honesty. Nothing to add but: Congratulations with 3K followers! :)

[@GuylainPrince]

Yes, thanks ! Just announced it on my FB wall! Pretty excited!

[@subhanusaxena7199]

Merci for the authentic reaction. It shows that we all have a wide variety of tastes. I happen to love this song, because it is so different musically. You may find the wikipedia page interesting for this song as it appears to be written from the perspective of the women observing Jesus on the cross, though I am not completely sure about this. Also, you may be interested to hear that Troy announced at their Helsinki concert last year that they would never play this song alive again. Tuomas talks about how these early songs are somehow a curiosity for him as they have grown so much. That interview is here: www.hardline-magazin.de/2019/10/31/interview-tuomas-holopainen-nightwish-i-love-reading-stories-i-love-different-cultures-histories-all-that-kind-of-things/

[@GuylainPrince]

Not surprised the least!

[@Piia2023]

The video they made back then is very nice...

[@GuylainPrince]

I did not used the official vid. My focus is on the lyrics.

[@danm2783]

It's tone is very questioning, introspective. I believe it was included in decades for questions it asks and observations it makes rather than musical triumph. Echoes of these musing are strewn throughout the history of Nightwish, so more about the connections of past and future. What the Demo is to overall style, the Carpenter is to musings.

[@GuylainPrince]

Thanks for the comment! I found few very good things in there, but not the esssential elements!

[@eddiecreutzburg7375]

First time I hear it. It is horrible. I love the the Buenos Aires concert but the old one, aaaaarrggg. Thanks friar, for doing Floor and Troy' version as well.

[@GuylainPrince]

No problem! I will do a live version, when it exists!

[@ChantalLalonde]

Oui!! La version live avec Troy ❤️❤️❤️❤️

[@GuylainPrince]

Yup! C'est celle là que j'ai prise.

[@georgefer8923]

Hahahaha ces expressions faciales ... impayables ! Tu m'as vraiment bien fait rire. Bravo pour ton honnête réaction qui ne va pas forcément caresser les fans dans le sens du poil. Pas d'hypocrisie ici mais beaucoup de sincérité. Cela dit, te suivant depuis les tous débuts de tes réactions (même si je commente rarement), je ne suis absolument pas surpris. Personne ne peut douter de ce que nous allons trouver sur ton canal. C'est ce qui fait son charme et c'est pourquoi je ne raterai aucune de tes réactions/analyses, quel que soit le chanteu(se)r/groupe même si je ne les aime pas! C'est dire!

[@GuylainPrince]

WOW! Merci George. C'est pourquoi je tenais mordicus à ce que mes réactions soient en français. Je sais, je suis moins "populaire" ainsi. En effet, les réactions sont de 4 à 5 fois plus écoutées que les analyses, MAIS c'est mon choix. Je les veux naturelles, honnêtes et ... comme je n'ai jamais hésitéà "être tout seul de mon opinion", ce que les autres pensent ne m'affectent pas beaucoup. J'écoute et apprécie une opinion bien exprimée, même diamétralement opposée à la mienne, et je donne toujours considération. Mais que 99% des fans pensent quelque chose ne change rien à mon appréciation. C'est comme ça! :-) Tant mieux si elles vous plaisent. Pour moi, il était aussi TRÈS important de servir aussi les francophones et francophiles qui sont très nombreux, apparemment. Je suis très heureux de cette réponse. Je viens d'atteindre les 3000 abonnés, ce que je n'aurais jamais espéré quand j'ai commencé cette petite chronique, il y a 6 mois. Je suis pratiquement seul, dans mon coin de pays à aimer le métal, et encore plus le métal symphonique. Je pensais avoir une audience de ... 30 personnes. Or, la réaction dont vous parlez, a établi des nouveaux records pour ma chaîne en 48 heures. Je suis totalement surpris. Les gens apprécient autant la réaction enthousiaste que celle qui est plus réservée. Cela me dépasse. Carrément, et je me l'explique mal. Il est en pourtant ainsi, je le constate.

[@georgefer8923]

@@GuylainPrince Les voies de KZbin sont probablement aussi impénétrables que celle du Seigneur. ;) Toutes me félicitations pour les 3000 abonnés. Ce n'est que justice selon moi et cela ne va certainement pas s'arrêter là. Je suis plutôt très à l'aise en anglais donc les vidéos en français ne sont pas la raison première qui m'a amené ici bien que j'apprécie beaucoup. Ca change ! Le grappin qui m'a "hooké" est celui de toutes tes autres qualités que je ne vais pas répéter. Bravo, bonne continuation.

[@neptune1157]

Il Faut Absolument que tu réagisse a la version live avec Troy ...Buenos Aires 2018 magnifique !

[@GuylainPrince]

Oui, c'est ce que j'ai fait. Ma réaction ne sera pas celle que tu attends, mais c'est la mienne!

[@guimich2478]

Rest in Peace Edward Lodewijk Van Halen. Maestro Virtuoso!

[@GuylainPrince]

RIP!

[@laurentyvangurewitch3940]

Great reaction, Guylain. Mon ami, si je peux être si audacieux que de suggérer une prochaine chanson possible, je pense que vous apprécierez Nightwish - The Islander (Live At Tampere) qui met en vedette Marco dans un style très différent de chanson très folk orientée, mais très Nightwish en même temps.

[@GuylainPrince]

Je crois que ce n'est pas dans la liste des 24 chansons, mais c'est CERTAIN que je vais l'écouter. Paix à toi!

[@AT87]

Yeah.. even Nightwish has songs that isn't perfect. I did appreciate them playing it live on the last tour though, it's a song I never thought I would ever get to hear live and it's a big part of the band's history.

[@GuylainPrince]

It was a cornerstone, at a certain time. But sometimes, songs don't age well...

[@ServantOfOdin]

Yea, it was one of the earliest songs they made where they had not yet found their way. It needs to be understood, that the song lacked many of the key features, being the strong male (Tuomas always says it himself, he is a "substandard" singer), and the complex layering. But it is, after all a reason, why the song has never been played live before 2018. At times I think Tuomas himself is a bit ... let's say embarrassed by the song. I do like the song from the perspective that it is a very rudimentary song.

[@GuylainPrince]

I would make a precision : the instrumental bridge, the third verse (by Tarja) and the extro are EXCELLENT. The weak parts are the two first verses and the chorus. It shows, clearly great promises on the composing capacity of NW.

[@ruma9687]

@@GuylainPrince yes, and as you may be aware, their first album is actually their first demo tape plus few additional tracks so their somewhat amateur touch is still quite obvious on the album

[@loriec6918]

Unfortunately, I cannot attend your premiere today, Guylain, due to a rare appointment I must keep. I will watch later. Thanks!

[@GuylainPrince]

Will do! Thanks for stopping by!

[@neptune1157]

En Fait c'est la première composition Rock avec voix de Tuomas ...avant ils on fait de l'acoustique et des instrumentaux ...Voila pourquoi elle a une importance pour Tuomas

[@GuylainPrince]

Ouaip! Ça pourrait expliquer le choix.

[@flemmingstergaard4690]

It was obvious through both versions, that they didnt sit well with you, and respect for the honest reaction. Respect that you knowingly take on songs where your Wold view collide with the message of the song. This song is not my favorite either, (has never been on my playlist). Looking forward to your next one :-).

[@GuylainPrince]

To be frank, I love the lyrics and some part of the song. I was surprised by the verses melody and tonality (to low) and by a "bizarre chorus", for NW standards.

[@flemmingstergaard4690]

😊👍

[@ceithern]

Salut Guylain! Je pense que pour beaucoup c'est la nostalgie de leur premier album...1997 était il y a longtemps. Tuomas était, quoi, 20 ans quand il l'a composé? Je suis d'accord que ce n'est pas une bonne chanson, mais je pense qu'il y a des éléments qui se connectent au Nightwish qui devient. Je pense que c'était un choix inspiré de l'inclure également dans une rétrospective, car leur premier single ... les premiers amours sont toujours spéciaux même s'ils ne durent pas!

[@GuylainPrince]

Probablement ça, oui! Premières amours!

[@bigg2988]

This is a decent song. Plain to see it is not in the usual NIGHTWISH style... However, I used to rock out to its main riff and the keys interlude. For me, it never was a winner as far as vocal writing. We have to accept it for what it is: a song with its place in history of the band, when the guys were still searching for "their" sound, experimenting. But not a cornerstone. I am sure the fans suggested it mainly for the lyrical content, let's see if you disclose more in the text than we thought was there. (A trivia fact: Tuomas has said in an interview that today he would not write lyrics like those to "The Carpenter", but he is not taking them back either - these thoughts were part of him in his late teens.) Anyway, I think NIGHTWISH's debut has better songs than this, which I would gladly have heard resurrected. But the band picked this one too - so maybe we can figure out the thought process together. :)

[@GuylainPrince]

In fact, to be really frank. I found the lyrics more engaging and interesting than the song itself. And it shows in the analysis of it. Yeah, there are a few difficulties, but the song makes sense to me.

[@jeannettesimpson9778]

Tuomas must have been around 19 when he wrote this. Who knows where he was coming from, and it sounds incredibly naive, but it does have the germ of his themes that have lasted throughout Nightwish - nature.

[@GuylainPrince]

Musically, I agree with you : very very good ideas all along. I just wonder : why, with such beautiful melodic lines in the bridge and the extro, choosing a "flat melody" as a chorus. This is out of my understanding... completely.

[@jaska6875]

This was those times when NW played gospel and Tuomas sang.

[@GuylainPrince]

Pfoooaaaa ha ha ha ! Well, I am a choir director of Gospel. I can tell you that : there is a LOT of great music in there. And great singers too!

[@tanjajko7220]

Well, they had to start somewhere 😁 I think they were toddlers at the time..

[@GuylainPrince]

Ha ha ha ! That's it! Baby talk!

[@ozzyp97]

If I had to guess, I'd say the primary reason this song was included on Decades is because it's the very first single they ever released. It's not a greatest hits compilation, and musically Tuomas doesn't much care for the Angels Fall First album anyway.

[@bigg2988]

Well. When you think he could have included "Astral Romance", or "Angels Fall First"! What did he have against those songs? Behind the obvious choice of "Elvenpath", both of those would have been quite representative...

[@ozzyp97]

@@bigg2988 I would've liked AFF too, or even Tutankhamen. Still, I'd wager he chose The Carpenter due to it's historical significance, and that's fine by me.

[@GuylainPrince]

Sometimes, there are "sentimental" reasons, hard to explain.

[@kevingunning7569]

It is a curio, but finds it's place in the canon of important songs. It was the bands' first single, and deserves to be included, however 'sub-standard' it might be. Who would have thought that the same pen that composed 'Please, Please Me', would have later composed' Sergeant Pepper'. It is all about honing your craft with experience, and we all have to start somewhere. Bon mots nevertheless Guylain!

[@GuylainPrince]

I agree! But after the "Beauty and the Beast", full of surprises and promising... Ouf! This being said, for me, there are a LOT of good things in there. And I will reaffirm that in the analysis.

[@iirockstar23562]

Like I told you before.. You will not like "Weak Fantasy"... Troy said here in Helsinki, Finland 2018 That this will be the last time they will play vthis song alive. I'm cool with that n I think everybody else too :) The first album is a demo album - Tuomas H.

[@GuylainPrince]

Many of you think so. Well, I am curious more than ever! :-)

[@guimich2478]

Ce n'est pas un ver d'oreille! Doomy Nightwish trying to catch their sound. It will not be on your playlist! I can understand that it's not on mine neither. I think they picked it for nostalgia on this Tour. Your expressions during this were marvelous! Keep it up! I prefer these reactions that are genuine and do not only praise the genius. Baby steps you have to begin somewhere.

[@GuylainPrince]

Baby steps! Yup. That was it!

[@karlheinzk1305]

Hello Guylain, please use the live Video from Buenos Aires 2018, this is an official Version with a much better Sound. This Video is fun to watch an to listen to.

[@GuylainPrince]

It is the one I choose. You might be disappointed with my reaction, though!

[@karlheinzk1305]

@@GuylainPrince I know, there are many far better Songs at this Concert. Greetings from Bavaria.

[@guimich2478]

@@karlheinzk1305 I also have mixed feelings about this one. When I saw it live it felt better but it's not a song I come back very often.

[@GuylainPrince]

I understand you, very well, on this one!

[@robvanes693]

I agree

[@GuylainPrince]

Well, thanks! Did not want to deceive anybody.

[@micheltibon8872]

I have subscribed. I am going to use your videos to improve my French. You also reacted to three of my favorite bands with the best Dutch women vocalists. Floor Jansen, Sharon den Adel and Simone Simons. You also have some videos on Church history which I am starting to explore in the KZbin channel of Ryan Reeves.

[@GuylainPrince]

Well... this is my professionnal specialty : the chronological progression of the "thought", or beliefs. Second Temple Judaism and Origins of Christianity.

[@micheltibon8872]

@@GuylainPrince Looking forward to read it in either French or English.

[@GuylainPrince]

Many articles in French are available on the Net. More popular material. I have few courses/talks on the historical Jesus on my channel.

[@zebulonmcfly9213]

Pas le meilleur titre de NW, c'est sur, mais lorsque je les ai connus, ils n'avaient qu'un autre album (Oceanborn). Du coup, je l'ai pas mal écouté, et je l'apprécie aussi. J'ai hâte d'entendre ton analyse.

[@GuylainPrince]

C'est prêt depuis une semaine. Il ne me reste qu'à faire les sous-titres.

[@matteobava7119]

Come al solito un'analisi molto bella ed esaustiva, quando hai tempo potresti fare la reazione e analisi della canzone "Supernøva" del gruppo Ghøstkid è estremamente interessante secondo me ed è una canzone che mi ha toccato ed è raro che avcada, se la fai preparati perché è deth metal piuttosto pesante😂😂😂😂 Grazie mille comunque, ottimo canale, uno dei più interessanti su KZbin

[@GuylainPrince]

Grazie, caro amico! In realtà, ho ascoltato il death metal, ma non molto. Soprattutto perché le bande qui in America sono molto scure o addirittura nere. La musica è pesante, ma soprattutto l'atmosfera, l'atteggiamento, la visione del mondo. Molto pessismatico. La sfida per me non è la musica, ma le parole. Me ne andrò, appena posso! E grazie per i gentilissimi commenti! Merci, cher ami! En fait, j’ai écouté du death metal, mais pas beaucoup. Surtout parce que les groupes, ici, en Amérique, sont très sombres ou même noirs. La musique est lourde, mais surtout le climat, l’attitude, la vision du monde. Très pessismiste. Le défi pour moi n’est pas au niveau musical, mais au niveau des mots. J’irai, dès que je peux! Et merci pour les commentaires très gentils !

[@matteobava7119]

@@GuylainPrince in realtà l'atmosfera e oscura e pessimistica anche in quella canzone che ti ho consigliato però mi è sembrato che volesse dare un avvertimento a cosa potrebbe accadere se si continua su questa via

[@GuylainPrince]

Ho camminato in cammini oscuri, con altre persone (carcerieri, spacciatori, prostituzione, ecc.). Essere presente, senza lasciare che questo mondo entri nel mio cuore. Duro, ma possibile. I have walked in dark paths, with other people (prsionners, drug dealers, prostitution, etc.). To be present, without letting this world entering my heart. Hard, but possible.

[@matteobava7119]

@@GuylainPrince in realtà il tema della canzone (a me è parso perché è un po' criptico) è l'ambiente

[@MustaLaatta]

I'm not by any meas religius, but coul the carpenter Tuomas mentioned decades ago mean the first carpenter of chalize the blooddrops were collected and then unknown buried with his tools? btw Troy is playing version of Geek originin buzuki, banjos would be much sharper?

[@GuylainPrince]

Yup! This is the meaning of "grail". Here is stands for "life given" or "taken". I will explain in the analysis! Love the words, by the way!

[@GnomeDresta]

Oh holy hippopotamus! I had just discovered Nightwish and was digging around the internet to find more of their songs when I came upon this one. I didn't listen to Nightwish for 13 years after that, because, yeah, NOT the best introduction for the band.

[@GuylainPrince]

Pffooooaaaa ha ha ha ! Sadly, you missed GREAT musica after this one! Hope you'll recover, one day!

[@GnomeDresta]

@@GuylainPrince I did, and I had a great time catching up!

[@pekkakarppinen1608]

Once again we witnessed how much better NW is when live. The original is almost horrible. We wanted you to hear this, because it is as close the "Christian pop" song NW can get. And because on Saturday we'll start the Moose hunting season and I'll be very busy, I interpret the song for you for good, so we don't need to meet on next Saturday 😉. This is an young agnostic's song, so the key is: "Who are you?" Are you really the Saviour or only the plain carpenter, who builds the wooden crosses for the crusifixions? That's that and Nightynight. See you later, sir Guylain. 👍

[@eddiecreutzburg7375]

Almost horrible bro? It's horrible, oh my God, sorry oh my Goddess. ..

[@pekkakarppinen1608]

@@eddiecreutzburg7375 I just tried to be polite. 😩

[@eddiecreutzburg7375]

@@pekkakarppinen1608 That is nice but me being Dutch. We are as polite as a recently sharpened ax. .. lol

[@pekkakarppinen1608]

@@eddiecreutzburg7375 Do we Finns have the reputation of being polite and subtle? 😠⛄. Maybe....or maybe not. Peace to all mankind!

[@GuylainPrince]

Ha ha ha ! Interesting the reading you have of the song... Come back after my analysis and tell me what you think?

[@tarmotyyri6733]

Greetings from Finland & sorry to be late for the party. I enjoy this song, especially the lyrics although they require little interpretation & don't challenge one intellectually. Unfortunately, although Tuomas is a great composer/songwriter, he's no vocalist, which is why I prefer the live version with Troy & Floor on vocals. However, Floor wasn't at her best in BA as she suffered from a head cold that occasionally made it hard for her to even speak.

[@pekkakarppinen1608]

The original is quite horrible, but the live version is good. I like the lyrics too.

[@tarmotyyri6733]

@@pekkakarppinen1608 Happy to hear that. Take care & stay safe.

[@GuylainPrince]

I saw that happen: very lively songs, you tend to "forget" that you are sick. Slow song : it gets right back to you. Pretty sure that Floor, normally, could have pull it up. Here, it is not the case.

[@erkkinho]

C'est pas les 22 meilleures chansons, c'est une retrospective.

[@GuylainPrince]

Je comprends, et ne comprends pas. D'autant qu'après avoir écouté l'album Angels Fall First, d'autres auraient été meilleures à mon avis. Mais comme le disait quelqu'un d'autre : premier single! C'est sentimental.

[@onearthonelegion]

GOD IS THAT YOU?!

[@GuylainPrince]

:-) The Carpenter is close to every soul of mankind!

[@stasa-X]

So, Qulain, you didn't like the song,i agree with you, this is not my favourite of the first album but in time i loved it more. Always i am wondering why they released this song as a single and not elvenpath or some other song? I love the video at least the video is great. At the other hand they never played in live with Tarja for so many years and put it in decades tour, good for me at least we have a live version for the history of the band. In first album have some mixed songs, acoustic,folk, they try to find their sound the gentre of the following music and hopefully they did, they create Oceanborn my loving album still today. Angels fall first it's a demo album, who sent to music company and they found perfect no one change made. The company found the album just perfect. I like Tuomas in vocals,he is much better than the beauty and the beast or in astral romance. And i like Troy also in live as male vocalist. I never said i didn't like , this song need time to grow inside you, just wasn't' my favourite song from the first album. Personal i believe that this song have something deeper for Tuomas that time,he is the composer and songwriter,he must have some elements of his life that time, his inspiration for the early years of NW.But maybe find more in analysis. I will be waiting for your analysis,must be very interesting. My dear Qulain,next radevouz will be Saturday , i wish you good health till then.

[@GuylainPrince]

Thank you so much. See you Saturday!

[@davidcoyne7291]

Not Nightwishes finest hour. Who exactly were the subs who voted for this song! (ok i checked back to your first video and you chose it because Tuomas chose it). Fans are off the hook so. Its almost the worst song i ever heard, never mind worst NW song. Still i'm glad you did it because it sets up the next album and the change is remarkable.

[@GuylainPrince]

Some sections are really good. Not the 2 first verses, not the chorus. But the rest, not bad.

[@nathaliecazenave8677]

La version live est nettement meilleure que la version originale, la voix de Troy joue beaucoup. Dommage la musique ne met pas du tout en valeur les paroles qui méritent que l’on s'y attarde. Mais cette chanson ne me plait pas du tout , même Je sais bien qu'il s’agit des début de Nightwish,et le groupe n’était pas aussi abouti que maintenant. Dans ce show de 2018, ils ont revisité d’autres titres des tous premiers albums Personnellement j’ai redecouvert Nightwish avec l’arrivée de Floor. Le Nightwish des débuts ne me laisse pas un souvenir impérissable. Même si l’arrivée de Marco fut une énorme bouffée d’air frais.

[@GuylainPrince]

Il y a deux "produits" Decades : la compilation sur disque et le show. Je peux comprendre des repères liés à la dynamique d'un spectacle. Cela peut amener des choix à première vue surprenants. Sur un disque, c'est autre chose... Et je constate que Tuomas a présenté les titres en "ordre inversé". Je me suis posé la question... peut-être la distance par rapport aux mots/mélodies, la remontée dans le temps. Ça me semble une bonne décision.

[@RooStephan]

Also probably my least favorite Nightwish song. It doesn't really sound like the normal Nightwish vibe. But hey, everyone had to start somewhere. Tuomas has definitely made colossal strides as a composer. Looking forward to the analysis. Like Tribal from their new album, the lyrics don't really agree with me much, and just make me sad.

[@bigg2988]

Honestly, it does not make sense to pick a song based primarily on the lyrics unless they are truly epochal. Here, the "full package" is not present yet. But I guess a lot of guys have that urge to see just how the religion-related lyrics play out for Guylain, OR maybe to make some point about Tuomas' history with organized faith. Oh well.

[@GuylainPrince]

Ah? You think this is the reason why people chose that one for me? That is interesting. And it makes sense.

[@didierronco6325]

Guylain c est une chanson en bois !

[@GuylainPrince]

Pfffoooooaaa ha ha ha ha! Comme on dit au Québec : "Elle est très bonne!".

[@TheDoctorIWho]

As always a great reaction, in harmony with this great music. Btw. Epica is releasing a new album in 2021 with this first realesed single: kzbin.info/www/bejne/qoXViKqppNGtf5I

[@GuylainPrince]

Yup. I will fo the new album in 2021.

[@johannessilver8653]

This is clearly one of their songs they have not made better on live than original studio or video version. The chorus in live is almost lame even though they do harmonies. I even like more singing by Tuomas ; )

[@GuylainPrince]

And I clearly prefer Tarja in studio on this one, for the 3rd verse. Troy and Floor do make a good job. And don't forget Marko on the chorus! But, if globaly, it is a little bit better (I agree with you), I think that the one with the key for this one would have been Tarja. But because she is really good, not because the song is exceptional.

[@Paul_C]

I do understand if you were to strike off Nightwish from you playlists all together. Tuomas has become more mellow over the years, Tribal the last time he lashed out. That said each and every album has at least one song which goes contrary to your belief-system. He, as Troy, see nature and science as that as what you would call God. The rather curious thing for me, I'm even past the point of pointing out it doesn't matter at all in the great scheme of things. We live and consequently we die. The drive to procreate is a biological urge and has nothing to do with conscious deciding which route to take. Addendum I suppose you are not one who is into science fiction, should I be mistaken I have one movie you might want to watch. LUCY, though it is an English spoken film, with Morgan Freeman and Scarlett Johansson, the writer and director is Frenchman Luc Besson.

[@GuylainPrince]

I LOVE sci-fi ! I am almost throught Liu Cixin's trilogy (Le probleme à trois corps). I already know Lucy. I liked it. Yesterday, I re-watch the 5th Element, from Besson as well. :-)

[@billattercliffe8655]

This song was worthy of inclusion as it shows their origins when the band didn't have much of an identity. Historically it has some significance. As far as the lyrics goes, I've never been able to make sense of them beyond being a representation of someone wrestling with their faith. I'm sure you'll get more out of them, but it might take two or three pressings to draw out the essence. Musically, except for a few bits, it's a rock dirge.

[@GuylainPrince]

In fact, I find the lyrics more interesting than the music. You will see that in the analysis.

[@sebastienriviere7371]

D'accord avec vous pour dire que la chanson n'est pas formidable (de même pour la version 2018). Par contre l'album Decades n'est pas un best of dans le sens traditionnel du terme. Il s'agit de chansons qui ont une importance spéciale pour le groupe (The carpenter est leur tout premier vrai single, ce qui justifie sa présence sur l'album). Dans le même temps, des chansons très importantes (des singles qui ont très bien fonctionnés notamment) comme Wishmaster ou Over the hills and far away sont absentes de la compilation.

[@GuylainPrince]

En effet, les raisons qui ont porté Tuomas à les choisir, et aux autres membres à les accepter, restera pour nous, peut-être, inaccessibles. Nous verrons bien. Pour le moment, on peut croire qu'il s'y trouve des : 1) chants importants pour Tuomas et Emppu, 2) des chants qui forment un tout cohérent sur disque et en spectacle (the setlist). Au lieu d'un "best of" (ce que Tuomas rejette complètement) on a l'idée de "points d'ancrage" de ce que deviendra NW. En ce sens, oui, Decades signifie quelque chose.

[@mjpmattos]

In my opinion, there are only three good songs in the first album: Elvenpath, Beauty and the Beast and Angels Fall First. The rest...

[@GuylainPrince]

I will hear that next weekend, before turning towards the next album.

[@hugogodoyalvarez4212]

Floorminios in 1, 2, 3 ... Jajaja

[@GuylainPrince]

Ha ha ha!

[@Albahtra]

I don't really care about this song that much but for some reason it sticks to my head so there must be something in there... My guesses for inclusion in the Decades album and in the tour: - historic value as first single - something that Troy can sing At least nobody recommended "Nymphomaniac Fantasy" so we're safe on that front :D

[@GuylainPrince]

Ha ha ha ! Don't know the song, and, according to you, there is no need for me to go in that direction! First single, you! It makes sense!

[@svengoris6468]

Il ya des gents qui trouve la francais de canada pas francais ou degoutant.. mois je trouve ca drôle et j'aime cette accent. Pour moi aussi cette chanson est une d'une de leur mauvais/moins chanson. Mais c'est logic, pas grave, presque impossible de trouver tous les chanson d'une band/equipe/chanteur(se) bien.

[@GuylainPrince]

D'accord avec vous. Quand aux gens qui n'aiment pas le français du Canada, vous saurez désormais qu'il est coloré, beau, imagé et poétique. Ce que nous n'avons pas en vocabulaire, on le gagne en efficacité et en poésie. Nous sommes nord-américain, après tout!

[@gattaccia3533]

My friend, on this video Italian subs aren't that good; rock music is transcribed as "roccia" and Gospel music of course is "Vangelo" everytime, which is quite funny to read, but not every miskate is so easily understandable. I don't like this song either, I'm very disappointed that in the end from Angels Fall First we listened to the worst songs, since I like the album very much. Nymphomaniac Fantasy, Astral Romance, Elvenpath and Tutankhamen really carry much more meaning and music is less repetitive in comparison to this song. Those songs can compete with some of their newest work. I can totally see why this song was chosen to be part of Decades, though: it's their first song about religion, the beginning of one of their main topics, which is of course the spiritual struggle you saw at its peak on Tribal. As per the music, I must say those sounds were very soon left behind in their musical developement, probably Tuomas had influences from european music scene that back then was quite heavy on "mechanical" sounds with tons of distortions (Es: Dragonlance). Tutankhamen is close to The Carpenter in style, but I think in the end it came out a better result. See you in the weekend for the analysis, hugs from Italy!

[@GuylainPrince]

When we learn that Angels Fall First (album) is not an album but a demo, produced by the band itself, our disappointment turns into amazement. I don't think it was a good move to publish "as is", but it was the decision of the time. as for the Italian sub : most of the time, they are translated from the French. Then, they are very good. But when my time is short, it happens that the subtitles are based on English. Not a good solution, I agree. So, subtitles made with DeepL is all I can do at the moment. One day, an Italian soul will offer me to make a revision, and I will give access to the "subtitle maker" of YT. Until then, it is all I can do to facilitate the listening of italiani! :-) Thanks you for your understanding!

[@Meine.Postma]

This for me is jus a filler song. Completely agree with your reaction.

[@GuylainPrince]

Ha ha ha ! Well, somewhere, somebody chose it as a single.

[@Kvasaari]

Yeah this is not my favorite song either. It's not bad but it lacks that Nightwish sound.

[@GuylainPrince]

I really think that the main melody of the chorus is not from Tuomas, but from another member of the band.

[@renejensen7799]

I would agree this is no good song, i dont listen to it on my playlist, only to refresh old NW sounds, as i do have to refresh my NW songs now and then right, from the songs you chose to do by NW, i do also belive all others is better.

[@GuylainPrince]

Oh? You mean all others on this album? I will listen to it in 15-20 minutes. I will tell you!

[@renejensen7799]

@@GuylainPrince No actually i did mean the songs you have selecteds (we have selected)to react to and analyze on your NW jorney..

[@StergiosMekras]

This may be my least favourite Nightwish song ever.

[@GuylainPrince]

Well, I haven't listen to them all, but until now, it is the case for me.

[@melicriszoe1]

Personalmente no me gusta esta canción, toumas la cantó y él canta tan horrible que es por eso que decidió no cantar nunca más jaja. Yo nunca hubiera recomendado esta canción. Las que te recomiendo de nigthwish con Tarja son: sleeping sun, ghost love Score, Nemo, planet hell, wishmaster, the phantom of the opera, over the Hills and far away, ever dream, passion and the opera etc etc

[@GuylainPrince]

Estoy de acuerdo en que hay mejores canciones con Tarja, pero esas vendrán más tarde en nuestro viaje. Ahora, estamos en el primer álbum y este es el que Tuomas y Nightwish recomiendan en Décadas... así que... Eso explica por qué los fans lo eligieron. D’accord qu’il y a de meilleures chansons avec Tarja, mais celles-là vont venir plus tard dans notre parcours. Là, nous sommes dans le premier album et c’est celle-là que Tuomas et Nightwish recommande dans Decades… alors… Ça vous explique pourquoi les fans l’ont choisie.

[@jaapblaauw3735]

O man, i find this a very weak song and composition. I had a hard time watching both versions til the end. The live one wasn't better. Very weak song, won't listen to this one again, just my opinion.

[@GuylainPrince]

I could not have imagined Floor not making a song great... Well, now I know it can happen! WOW.