Loading Black Powder 45-70

[@blueduck9409]

The US army used 55 grains of black powder with a wad and a 405 grain hollow base lead bullet for the cavalry and artillery carbine rifles, while the infantry used full 70 grain loads for the full length rifles. The government experimented with different loads over the years it used the 45-70. One thing i can say is, it is a game killer, and has very respectable accuracy at long distance even today. The 45-70 is a hog slayer. Best wishes on your Texas hunt!

[@dkeith45]

@BlueDuck I read somewhere the original 45LC was loaded with 50 grains of FFF and the recoil was a bit much for most military types of the day, so the load was reduced to 28 grains of BP. Back in the day, a friend, an old WW2 vet had a trapdoor that had belonged to his grandfather. He had a lee loader and we'd load 70 grains of FFF into the shells with a round ball swagged down to .458 pressed in finger tight and it was a lot of fun to shoot.

[@308dad8]

Really, what granulation of Black Powder?

[@BlodaBlodaBloda]

Wonderful Video. Nothing blows off stress like a BPCR!

[@plop55]

My favorite 45-70 load is 68 grains of swiss 1.5f compressed with a 535 grain Lyman Postell bullet using SPG lube.

[@svernwarunos546]

Hi Todd, Merry Christmas Feliz Navidad from Toronto, Ontario.

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

Merry Christmas to you and your family as well! Thank you for the kind message. Todd

[@JohnnyBallou]

Thank you for all this info! I now know why I can only get 50 gr.of 2F in my Trapdoor loads! Time to start over!

[@edelm6062]

Very interesting in the procedure that you use for loading. Anxious to see the results of tests. I'm just starting the black powder phase of shooting.

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

Thanks for watching. It's a challenge I really enjoy. Todd

[@deanmacka4975]

I like this video mate , 👍 I'm gonna get me a 45/70 and I really like the look of your Browning lever action, but I would really love a Winchester 1886 45-70 . Great video mate 👍

[@bunkstagner298]

welcome to my rabbit hole. Lots of fun here , smokey, but fun.

[@boydbrooks7848]

Looking forward to seeing the results in your next video. Last weekend I loaded 20 rounds of 45-70 using different charges of Swiss 1 1/2 Fg. Weights went from 60-70 in 2 1/2 gr increments (5 rnd at each charge). I’m using a 540 gr cast lead projectile. Going to test them using my Sharps this weekend if the weather cooperates.

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

Let me know how the test goes. Todd

[@robertkoller3391]

Another excellent video. I have an original 1873 Trapdoor Rifle. It is in excellent shape but I do not want to use modern powders. Your video fills in a lot of gaps and explains the compression of the powder. I have everything to make the rounds, I just wanted to see it done. Thank you. I am on to the next part.

[@gotsloco1810]

If you have not seen the book “Loading Cartridges for the original.45-70 Springfield Rifle and Carbine “ by JS and Pat Wolf you may want to track down a copy.

[@rayc.1396]

Very interesting. I shoot a Pedersoli 1874 Sharps in 45-70 with 65 grain black powder and 545 grain paper patch 99.9 lead slug. I used the 215 primers for a few hundred rounds then swapped over to a large pistol primer with a dot of typing paper in the bottom of the primer pocket to take up the difference between cup heights and reduce the shock of the primer hitting the breach block. The reason for not giving the powder brand used comes down to home made, 10# batches at a time about 3F granulation. When I changed to the large pistol primers my groups reduced in size by half to 1 inch at 100 yards, not great, but I'm old, shaky and don't see as well anymore so it works for me. When I was 16 the family visited a friend in Idaho, that friend had a 1886 Winchester in 45-90, he shot 45-70's threw his because they were more available at the time. Got to shoot a couple rounds with it, it was a real shooter.

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

Thanks Ray, I'm second guessing my use of a magnum primer. Reading your message, I'm convinced I shouldn't use one. If you're shooting 1 inch groups while old and shaky, salute!!! Todd

[@rayc.1396]

@@frontierwesternheritage1356 I am actually getting one and three fourth groups consistently with a 2 inch thrown in ever so often, I have gotten a three quarter c-c on one occasion. The magnum primers are real hot, I did the large rifle primers and found a good difference then tried the large pistol magnum with about the same result. After the magnum pistol I went to the standard large pistol, that is where I am now. Don't put off loading the pistol primers without the typing paper to take up the space difference. I saw a Sharps that had a cracked breach block, wasn't pretty, but repairable. Continue shooting small groups and enjoy your hunt.

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

@@rayc.1396 Thanks Ray, Great info.

[@terryqueen3233]

This is great I have a 4570 looking to do a good charge for my cartridges so I'm looking forward to the test that you're going to do to see how they turn out. I've just got to learn how to use the scales. I have electronic scales but I don't know how to do the leveling scales I guess practice huh. Have a great day stay safe and keep your powder dry!

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

Thanks Terry, Don't copy my loads too soon. I'm afraid it's back to the drawing board. You'll see why on March 1st. Todd

[@devmeistersuperprecision4155]

Interesting! I experimented with making my own powder. At first, I just mixed the ingredients. Horrible Slow. Then I ball milled. Much better but NOT a GOex. Lastly I went to using DuPont’s old recipe of using horse urine to dissolve the nitrates. Then formed it up with a brass mold using a 50 ton H press. Then corned it and grated it. Huge increase in density. Very good performance. I think the charcoal being as porous as it is needs to have a maximized exposure to the nitrates. Not just a chunk of charcoal surrounded by nitrates. Ball milling creates very small charcoal particles and the liquified nitrates get into every nook and cranny. Lastly, the H press compression compresses the charcoal a lot. The density and hardness of the pucks is significant. The fact you found the Swiss 1.5 more dense is interesting. They must be using higher puck compression than GOex. I also build steam engines. I stumbled on one that was used by DuPont to make BP. Even after motors were std, DuPont refused to replace it cuz of safety concerns. They were kerning 12 in diameter pucks. Thanks for posting ballistic and reloading information. It helps when your experimenting with this stuff.

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

Thanks for all the info. I haven't attempted powder making. Todd

[@HansFormerlyTraffer]

Great video...everything explained very well. Have you ever used powder coated bullets?

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

Hans, I have not. While they might work well to lube the bullet, I don't think they would do much to keep the black powder fouling soft. Accuracy would go down hill quickly. Thanks for watching, Todd

[@453421abcdefg12345]

The neat part of the 1886 design was that all the cartridges that this rifle was chambered for, (EXCEPT the 50/110), had the same cartridge head size, so only the barrel had to be changed for different calibers, that must have been a huge production cost saving. Chris B.

[@bigboresledder]

It will be fun to see the results.

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

Watch for them on March 1st. Todd

[@joeldennis831]

Really great and instructional video. What crimp die are you using? A roll crimp like Lee factory crimp or a taper crimp die? Thanks

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

It's taper crimp. There is a great crimp groove in the bullet and the taper locks it down well. Todd

[@victorshults242]

Love the NF on black powder

[@robertking3825]

I would love to see a video of 45-70 loaded with 777.

[@tazccl]

Thanks for making the video. Can you go over how you clean your Sharps. I have a Quigley Shiloh Sharps 45-70 I would like to get into shooting black powder but not sure about the cleaning of the rifle.

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

Tazccl, It's an easy clean up if you anneal the case mouth to make the brass soft enough for a complete seal when the powder goes off. This puts all the fouling down the barrel. I'm sure you've had the forestock off, loosened the spring tension, pulled the pin, and dropped the breech block out of the bottom of the frame. Once that is done, use any black powder solvent through the breech with a patch and wipe the barrel clean. Use a lead solvent as well. Also wipe off the breech block and the frame to remove any fouling that may have bee deposited when you ejected the empty cases. You can also run a nylon brush down the bore and patch it a few more times. People complain about the mess black powder makes, but I find it easy to clean up. The disadvantage is that you need to clean the gun soon and not put it away for a few months or it will rust badly. Just plan on cleaning it after shooting. It takes 15-20 minutes from dirty to oiled up and ready for the next outing. Shiloh sells both a great black powder and lead solvent. Start with theirs and you won't be disappointed. Don't hesitate to make some good old-fashioned smoke. Todd

[@453421abcdefg12345]

The 1886 is a very nice, strong action, I have one in 50/110 the only problem with that is the tiny 350grn bullet, but I do like the octagonal barrel of your 45/70!(my barrel is a round one), I am truely surprised that you can get 70 grns in your cases, with the solid head I can only get 65 grns in there, but I do include a grease wad over a waxed carton overpowder, black powder should be weighed, the only reason powder measures were ever made was because there was no accurate portable weighing device back in the day, but as you point out, different powders weigh different weights for volume, and energy is purely dependant on weight, not volume, of course no one will get into trouble measuring by volume as a case cannot be charged with too much powder, I look forward to the range testing of these, I do wonder if including a grease wad reduces the efficiency of a loaded cartridge as there cannot be as much compression as you are applying here, or the grease would extrude into the powder, and I use only 90 grns under a grease wad in my 45/120, so there is not much powder compression there, although I am using Swiss. Nice to see you back in the saddle ! Chris B.

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

Thanks Chris, I did the tests yesterday and will post on March 1st. Hate to spoil it for you, but it's a complete disaster. I have rounds keyhole the target. Every time I've had a disaster with black powder rounds it's been too much velocity. This might be compounded by the need of a grease cookie and backing off to a large rifle primer and not using a magnum. Surprisingly, not much barrel leading. But this reminds me of mt first attempt with the Sharps 15 years ago. Pushing way too hard. Thanks for sticking with me. Todd

[@453421abcdefg12345]

@@frontierwesternheritage1356 Tumbler ! That sounds like bad news, what is the twist rate of that barrel ? For the 1886 we have to use a very short bullet to get it to feed properly, and I find that shooting a bullet that is short for diameter tends to give tumbling, but it must have worked back then, and as for velocity, you have fired smokeless rounds through this one without tumbling, the early cartridges would have had more room for powder that extruded brass, I wonder if you reduced to 65 grns with a grease wad it would be better, you really had to compress these loads to get the bullet to seat, was the velocity near that of the smokeless loads? Keep trying ! Chris B.

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

@@453421abcdefg12345 The smokeless loads are copper jacketed so they grip the rifling better. 1 in 22 twist. I watched the footage last night. The 1 1/2 Swiss put two bullets through the same hole and the others grouped well. Thinking it's a velocity issue now.

[@larryclark9380]

Was there a need to slug the bore to find the bore diameter? Mine was .456”. The lead bullets were .459”. Seemed too big of a difference so I bought a sizer die and sized the bullets to .457” Haven’t shot it yet. Trying to go about this safely. Good video. Thanks for the tips.

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

Thanks for watching, Larry. I have not slugged the barrel, but it's not a bad idea. I've mostly shot copper jacketed bullets that are .458 and developed an accurate load. The black powder loads are a new thing for this gun and I'm still working on it. Todd

[@kcstott]

Black powder is not as sensitive to charge weight as smokeless is. You can have 2-4 grains of variation and it will not show up on the chronograph or the target for the most part.

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

I think you're probably right, but it depends on the case capacity. My 50-90 Sharps, maybe not a big deal. My 44-40, probably a bigger deal. Maybe I was too particular for the 45-70, but also eliminated the powder charge variable. Sounds like a great test video someday. Thanks for watching, Todd

[@-LeClown]

merci, tres interressant

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

Thank you and thanks for watching, Todd

[@harrisonmccullough1183]

I have always been told to measure black powder by volume.

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

Harrison, I was told the same thing when I started with a muzzle loader as a teenager. Later I got into black powder cartridge and learned that the competitors measured by weight. I get this comment a lot, but loading books call for weight. Thanks for commenting, Todd

[@geraldtakala1721]

Nice saddle

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

Thanks Gerald, it's a Henry Hotze of St. Louis from the 1890s. Found it at a garage sale for 35 bucks. Thanks for watching, Todd

[@sasquatch885]

Do you anneal the case every time or just for new brass? Great channel btw.☝🏻👍🏻🇺🇸

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

I anneal every time just to stay consistent in malleability of the brass. As soon as it's too hard to make a proper seal, groups widen. Thanks for watching. Todd.

[@alvintarrer6914]

Never tried bp but bp substitute 60grn 45-90

[@shootythings5086]

I understand the principal in using a drop tube, but since you are compressing the powder anyway, does it really make a difference?

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

Shooty, it layers the powder evenly from bottom to top. The also makes the compression easier. If the bottom was loose and the top dense or vice versa, you get an uneven load when compressed. On top of that, you can get more powder in a case through a drop tube due to the fall of the powder and even layering. If I dumped the Goex 2F straight from the the scale pan, I bet it would spill over. Thanks for watching, Todd

[@dogbone1358]

I missed the weight of the bullet you’re loading. I have the same Browning/Winchester 1886.

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

It was a 405 grain .458 cast lead. I'm going to try it in .459 next, hoping to engage the rifling a little more. We will see how that test goes. I've mostly shot copper jacketed lead nose ammo with smokeless powder and just recently got nostalgic. I hope you've had some success with yours. It's a great gun. Todd

[@dogbone1358]

@@frontierwesternheritage1356 Haven’t shot it a whole lot. Smokeless only. 405 cast I reload. Not interested in going black powder with it. Don’t want any residue getting into the action. Not taking any chances. Will leave the BP to my single shots.

[@fatfester123]

I don't shoot enough to justify loading my own but I can not find anyone who sells or has in stock any black powder ammunition, do you sell any? if not, any ideas who does have them?

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

Unfortunately, the liability related to selling ammunition is so high most individuals won't do it. Buffalo Arms out of Idaho is your best bet. You can order online. Availability is spotty, however, but it should get better. Thanks for watching. Todd

[@dkeith45]

It's funny watching a centerfire shooter measure out black powder VS an old muzzle loader shooter like me, where I simply dump BP out of my horn into a simple measure set to 70 grains, then dump it into a shell or a rifle barrel. You guys are WAY too careful. I see the need to be very precise for smokeless, but BP is VERY forgiving. You could double or triple load BP and no harm done. It'd just be a waste of powder since most of it would blow out the end of the barrel unburnt.

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

Thank for commenting, Keith. I've learned loading black powder cartridge from long range silhouette shooters who get tight groups at 600 yards or more. They are very particular, but you can't ignore the results. I think it all comes down to purpose. I'm less meticulous with my close range cowboy loads. Thanks for watching, Todd

[@dkeith45]

@@frontierwesternheritage1356 Yeah, it seems the BP world of my youth was pretty primitive. It was mostly Buckskinners and reenactors. I watched a video today on three different brands of F grade BP and how different they shot. So I see your point if you're shooting for the most accuracy possible, careful measuring is the ticket.

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

When I think of the black powder options shooters had in the 1800s, I get a headache. You could spend a lifetime testing loads. It might be a blessing that we have fewer to choose from - although, I have one can of powder that dates back before 1900 and it's the best powder I've ever shot. Regardless, just keep having fun. Todd

[@dkeith45]

@@frontierwesternheritage1356 There weren't many options in the patched round ball days, though it's likely some of those fellows who were winning all the matches were using carefully crafted loads. Now in these modern times, it's amazing seeing what a center fire BP rifle can do using all the sorts of bullets available. Watched another of your videos today shooting an 1874 Sharps, loaded with 86 grains of F grade BP and a 675 grain bullet. VERY accurate at 100 yards. Amazing. RIP your shoulder. Too bad they didn't have muzzle brakes in that era : )

[@Tammy-un3ql]

interesting.

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

Thanks, Todd

[@tonydeaton1967]

Don't think I'd fifty grains of 4064 in an old gun.

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

Thanks Tony. It's a Browning 1886 made in 1986 as a centennial piece. Sorry if I presented it in a misleading way. Todd

[@tonydeaton1967]

@@frontierwesternheritage1356 I'm sorry buddy, I never meant to imply you were being misleading in any way. I had that exact same rifle back in the early nineties. Incredibly strong action in the modern configuration. It had vicious recoil with hot loads though. Hot loaded 45-70 is nothing to sneeze at, even by modern standards.

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

Thanks. Sometimes I'm not real clear because I'm thinking it and then don't remember to say it. Other times I'm not even thinking it. You're right about 50 grains of 4064. It's not a load you want to shoot 25 times in a t-shirt. Ouch.

[@tonydeaton1967]

@@frontierwesternheritage1356 It's an outstanding cartridge. I loaded hot 45-70 for a friend who used the cartridges for a caribou hunt. The copper jacketed soft-point entered the chest and stopped in the ham. Almost total pass thru end to end. They were uncomfortable to shoot in my '86 Browning. Love your videos. Been searching for a tutorial on black powder and finally found your videos. Good stuff.

[@victorshults242]

💪🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸👍

[@308dad8]

At 2 minutes and 57 seconds if I was playing a drinking game for every time you said “uh” I would be dead already. Go relax and try again without the “uh”s and I’ll try and watch it. I get stage fright but you need to stand away from “uh” as a “uh” crutch. Also why do some of you try to change the lexicon 4064 is pronounced forty sixty four. No I’m not wrong. Black Powder 45-70 is 458 diameter bullets ranging from 300gn through 500gn and the old government load used a 405gn bullet. 70 came from the charge weight of the load, 70 gn of Black Powder but I don’t know which granulation from 1-3F but not everyone loads to the full 70gn of Black Powder. Well, good luck with that!

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

Thanks 308 Dad, I never thought about stage fright. But not a bad way to look at it. It's a subconscious habit that I will work very hard at correcting so I don't contribute any further to your delinquency. Thanks for commenting, Todd