Shooting the 1886 Winchester with 45 70 Test Loads

[@karsonbranham3900]

“On the far side of mediocre” that is a quotable quote.

[@btinsen]

Excellent video. Love the way you diagnose the problem. I was right there with you. You saved me a lot troubleshooting time and effort. Many thanks!

[@plop55]

First shot from a clean barrel in BP keyhole is an indication of and undersized bullet. I have the same rifle and I use hard cast lead bullets sized to .459.

[@wolfpack4694]

Love the flames from the barrel. Reminds me of the main gun of an M-60A1 on the tank gunnery range at Fort Knox in 1981! 🫡

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

@@wolfpack4694 Okay, that sounds like fun! Thanks for watching. Todd

[@85waspnest]

I had the same frustrating problem. 2 - 3 out of 10 shots keyholing at 25 yards. The issue turned out to be the .457, 340grain bullets I'd cast myself with a Lee mold. I recovered some from the sand bank, all with shallow rifling marks, some zero!! A random selection of new ones measured .001 - .002 undersize, probably due to the mold or lead not quite up to temperature. Whatever, even those measuring .457 weren't big enough for good accuracy. After slugging the bore at .457, I bought a new Lee single cavity .459, 405 grain hollow base mold which, being .002 bigger fixed the problem and I haven't had a single keyhole since. Note, these bullets also have a much bigger lube grooves. I don't know if you're casting your own or store bought. If the latter, try a bigger size, .459 works great in my Chiappa 1886.

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

Thank you. Judging from the lack of lead in the bore, I'd say you're probably correct on the undersized bullet theory. However, the last test turned in a great group. But I still think you're on to something. Todd

[@harrycombs2724]

I had the same thing with my 45-70 Quigley rifle using 2F Goex powder and the 405 grn. lead flat nose bullet. Keyhole issues and random flyers. Guess I'll revisit with some Swiss 1.5 F and check my results. My twist is 1:25. Thanks for the video!

[@45-70Guy]

Good to see tests like this for comparison using iron sights especially in the 45-70. My favorite setup is just that. Great content

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

Thanks for watching and for your appreciation of iron sights. Todd

[@SlickSixguns]

Is that an original 86 or repro. I have an original in 40-65

[@blueduck9409]

Key hole bullets are usually an indication of using undersized bullets. Try using larger diameter bullets. If youre using 457 sized bullets try 459 or keep going up until key hole stops. You can also use 457 size bullets if your lead alloy is soft. Softer than what youre using thats making the key hole.

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

Thanks Blue, I did locate some .459 bullets and will try those. The ones in the video didn't do too bad with the right powder, however. Thanks for watching. Todd

[@gregstoner7982]

To heavy of bullit for rate of twist and try cci large rifle primers hot primers are not needed reduce my group size by half.

[@devmeistersuperprecision4155]

@@gregstoner7982 A 1 in 22 is a pretty fast barrel. In ball muskets, I have used 1 in 72. Keep in mind that slug is doing 20,000 to 30,000 revolutions out the gate. If the FPS is to slow, it also slows down the RPM making it easier for a large slug to tumble. But playing the devils advocate, the 223 AR round is a bit light for that case and had been prone to tumble under right conditions. And it’s a britches burner out the front door. But it’s like shooting a cap gun. Once you get hooked on old west BP, your perspective changes.

[@terryqueen3233]

I would say by the end of the last rounds stop with the Swiss and it look like the Swiss was kicking harder to I would bet your shoulder is a little sore say the least. I have a Shiloh Sharps 4570 right around the 10th shot I'm starting to feel it. Excellent video thanks again and look forward to your next one. I love a 45/ 70 but after a lot of shot my shoulder don't of course I am 70 years old and allow the muscle around my shoulders gone do I have to shoot with a little bit of padding. Have a great day and stay safe and keep your powder dry!

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

Terry, you could put a pillow on your shoulder and I would understand. Just don't quit. Todd

[@tedpfenninger4972]

Thanks for the video Todd, Enjoyed this very much. You've got to be hard core to be out in that weather testing loads,.keep these great videos coming!

[@whiskeyriver4322]

That last load got me excited too!!! Four rounds in two holes and one close by for the win! That there is worth confirming on a better day and then moved out to 100yds. The others had me baffled; I'll have to go back and watch again, I must have missed what bullet you were using and it's weight. Great vid.....

[@edelm6062]

I was impressed with the last load, very nice group. Would you have time to make a video of your cleaning process using the 86 rifle with black powder? Thanks.

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

Thanks Ed, I'll tackle the cleaning video in next couple of months. Good idea. Todd

[@bunkstagner298]

Doctor K. Interesting results and one thing I noticed on almost every shot except for the Swiss 1.5 there was a noticeable muzzle flash. Possibly the very course powder grains trapped enough oxygen to give a more complete and consistent combustion.

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

Think you're right. The Swiss burned a little more thoroughly. Thanks for watching, Todd

[@richardbest6588]

It's so refreshing to see a video that shows when stuff goes to mediocre and beyond! I've had exactly the same keyholing problem with my 1886, at least 1 shot in 5 going adrift and usually sideways. And that's with smokeless, at around 1100fps. I'm going to look at changing the lubing... Because it doesn't seem likely I'm pushing them too fast, and I'm not getting much leading... Thanks for the video and giving me some pointers to try and solve this!

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

Thanks Richard, I think you're right about velocity. 1100 fps isn't too fast. I'm going to try the same bullet at .459 and my best load the see if engaging the rifling is the problem. I was in my case, however, seeing improvement with slower velocities. Thanks for watching Tood

[@davidbuckler1987]

1 1/2 swiss , had much less flame from muzzle , I shoot 3fff in my original 45/90 1886, made in 1892, with 405.gr lead with 70 grains by volume with almost no flame from wasted powder. And plenty accurate to 100 yds. I have enjoyed the video , From the great white north, Ontario. Canada.

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

Thanks David, I'll keep working on it. Glad to hear your original is in action and not relegated to the back of the safe. Thanks for watching, Todd

[@tbcoachniblick1208]

Good explaination... easy to follow and understand..!!

[@ronrobertson59]

I had a 1876 in 45-60 I was cutting down 45-70 casings. Mike Bellevue (dulist1954) made a video at my request on cutting down 45-70 to 45-60. The rifle I had was the Chapperel that was a hunk of junk. I sold it and planned to buy a Uberti 1876 Tom Horn model buy haven't yet. The 1886 in 45-70 may be a better choice. When I was a kid my neighbor had a Winchester 1886 in 50-110 if I recall.

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

I think you'd like an 1886. Todd

[@robertkoller3391]

Still following the trail from the reloading video. I did not think the Goex powders were available. I like the 1 1/2 Swiss. My Trapdoor originally used a hollow base 405gr bullet. The twist rate is the same as your rifle. Sizing was .459, I wonder if this could be your issue. It would explain the projectile rattling down the barrel. Have you found anything since this video was made. Still an excellent presentation.

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

Thanks Robert, I have a bit of a supply still of Goex. But I'm not sure what the future of the powder might be. As far as experimentation, I haven't been back to this project yet. It's on the list and a .459 bullet is the next move. Stay tuned and thanks for commenting. Todd

[@devmeistersuperprecision4155]

GOex and Eynesford are once again available. See dealer list on internet. I have used hornedy 458 405 grain in my Marlin using 3F and never keyholed. Casting is on the agenda. But I would never use anything less than 458.

[@daleharvey3278]

My roller,with a win barrel built by Morrison in main has a match chamber. If i compress a load and swell case at all no chambering round into battery. I think Bill built this riflr in 77, but I've never found out how it got to west coast. Beautiful rifle tho

[@Gunner-73]

Good video. the fifth bullet went thru the same hole on the far right bullet hole. of the target at 21:34 into the video. good group. ok, you found it :) When bullets are going erratic like that, its normally to fast or its to hot and melting the back of the bullet causing it to wobble and key hole. I had some that would turn to dust in mid air. But it wasn't 45-70 bullets. gas checks will help.

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

Thanks, I hadn't thought about the back of the bullet getting too hot. I might try double wadding it to test that theory. However, I don't have this issue with the 50-90 Sharps and I only put in one fiber wad. But you never know. Thanks for the tip. Todd

[@Gunner-73]

@@frontierwesternheritage1356 did you figure out what was happening ? 2cd time I watched this video. Curious to learn what powder and load you went with.

[@thomasmanson1119]

Todd, Many years ago (1935) my Dad shot one of the largest white tail bucks in western Pennsylvania with his model ‘94 chambered in 32 Win spec. (I had a cool photo to share, but I couldn’t get it to post).

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

That was my first deer rifle. I love and still have it. Manufactured in 1933.

[@daleharvey3278]

Ive never used swiss..my 86 is a browning and using fff w a lyman weelweight out of a lyman mold as cast,is minute of deer neck...smokeless same..lube...alox,tc w bees wax and now spg....lube is a big factor in accuracy...on origionals a hollow base may help, especially in a trapdoor. When ya shoot the old ones,safety first then what works for you...read,read,and you try till it works...

[@alvintarrer6914]

Good info,thanks for sharing,come down to Texas of hospitality 👍☕️☕️✌️

[@JWheeler331]

Do you think those fliers were your fiber wads?

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

Every time my accuracy goes to pieces it's due to pushing the velocity too hard. A tight twist and too much speed leads the barrel and I have to back off. My Sharps and, you will see soon, the Walker did the same thing. I'm a slow learner. Todd

[@JWheeler331]

@@frontierwesternheritage1356 I know just what you mean. Too fast and your just pushing through your lands and grooves. Hard to think back off though.

[@BlodaBlodaBloda]

Very nice on the last try!!!!!

[@Leverguns50]

An interesting thing that most people overlook is The 4570 was a very new cartridge at the time being only three years old, and Winchester did make some prototypes that use the 4570, but they basically went with the older more proven 50-70 cartridge design used to slightly longer cartridge necked it down for the 45-75 and the 50-95 which if you look at The cartridges developed by Winchester, you’ll see the similarities between them and the 38-40 and 44-40 just a much bigger version, I would imagine that little neck down served as a gas seal to keep any powder fouling from coming back into the action, however my favorite lever action is the 1886 favorite caliber is the 50-110 and I do believe it is a superior design

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

Thanks for commenting. I'd like an original in 50-110 as well. But I do have a 50-90 Sharps and that's all the wallop I need on my shoulder. I can't imagine the 50-110. Todd

[@blackbirdpie217]

Many of the old 1886 rifles had poorly sized barrels, and with years of use they can tend to run large. Mix that with inconsistently sized lead and the rifling might grab some of the bullets and others it might not spin at all. Best to slug the barrel or get a casting, and check the ammo. My guess both are not in the right size or are not consistent. I imagine some carbon buildup might actually increase accuracy.

[@Schlachtschule]

A fascinating video, thank you. As for your odd shots, are you weighing your bullets? I was having problems with the heavy bullets I use in my Snider-Enfield rifle, and a friend told me I need to be more careful with my bullets and need to weigh each round. I was getting some light bullets, which indicated voids in the bullet that threw the rounds way off target.

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

Thanks for watching. I was using commercially sold bullets and have never had an issue with them. It's a good thought though. I'll weigh a few in the next box full just to see. Todd

[@jasonkoestner4630]

Nice I have a pedersoli 1886 sporting rifle with 26 inch round barrel and in 45-70 the action is case color hardened no safety rebounding hammer

[@wilmamcdermott3065]

I seen it go through the same hole. I knew last one had 5 in it

[@65LB]

Boolit Diameter?

[@peteralexben]

two holes is a part of the bullet ,if not hot casted enough . or a gascheck , or to hard lube

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

I wasn't shooting gas checks in this trial, but I follow you. Thanks for watching, Todd

[@rooster3019]

Bullet size (diameter) and alloy toughness are factors that can be adjusted to reduce skidding in the barrel. As you watched your own video, I bet you noticed that rickitty old table was not helping, nor was the unstable upon that table barrel rest, and then you kept changing the location of the barrel or forend on that front rest. You might have success if you "Beagle" the mold and cast with real Lyman 2 (90:5:5 IIRC). Oh, and Swiss often does come to the rescue. In modern brass, using 70g Swiss might result in more commpression than what that powder "likes".

[@BlodaBlodaBloda]

usually a key hole is an indication of incorrect bullet dia. Maybe slug the bore.

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

Wait for the upcoming 45-70 video. You're are correct. Todd

[@garyhammond2213]

Others have said it and I concur. It's a bullet problem. Are there any Black Powder Cartridge guys out there? Like your vid!

[@wincheste94r]

I have a browning 1886 Riley octagon barrel shoots 2 inch groups at 100 yards on a good day I load smokeless powder IMR SR 5759, not made any more but substitute for XMP 5744 with 300 grain home cast bullet from accurate molds must be gas checked sized to .459 inch. Gas check bullet should work also with black powder. You need to gas check your bullets for sure and size up as your bullets are not properly engaging the rifling in your barrel. You will never get the best accuracy with plain base bullets in the Browning 1886.

[@doctheperfectfaceforradio6022]

At 100 yards, how accurate is the 1886 Winchester with 45 70 rounds?

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

I should be able to get a 2 inch group. Thanks for watching, Todd

[@doctheperfectfaceforradio6022]

@@frontierwesternheritage1356 My favorite gun. Loved shooting that weapon.

[@stevenbaker9327]

The first 2 went in the same hole with the 1 1/2 swiss! I never knew they made 1 1/2 f. Powder!

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

I wanted 1F, but it was out of stock. I'm beginning to like the 1 1/2 bought because it was available. Todd.

[@craigoldsen1667]

Sometimes you eat the bar.....and sometimes the bar eats you!😂

[@bigboresledder]

How were those bullets sized and lubed?

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

They where purchased sized and lubed. Diameter is .458 and lube is spg. I'm planning to slug the barrel next. Thanks for watching. Todd

[@dogbone1358]

Is your 86 an original or reproduction? Did you clean the barrel/action after each five shot group and what did you use for solvent?

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

Dogbone, Thanks for watching. I'm shooting an 1886 Browning made in 1986 as a 100 year anniversary gun of John Browning's design. I cleaned the barrel after each 5-shot test with a black powder solvent. Todd

[@dogbone1358]

@@frontierwesternheritage1356 Nice. Thanks. My 1886 was made more recently by Miroku.

[@dogbone1358]

@@frontierwesternheritage1356 Did you determine the reason for the fliers and keyholes?

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

@Dogbone13 I haven't been back to test any more loads. But in the meantime, I have got a hold of bullets at .459. Most folks think it's the bullets (.458) and may be right. I also think I need to slow the velocity down. Every time my groups open up, it's with too hot a load. I did group well with the 1 1/2 Swiss. Stay tuned. Todd

[@dogbone1358]

@@frontierwesternheritage1356 I’ve had good results with 63 gr of 1.5 Swiss and 535 gr Lyman Postell cast bullets.

[@jmartin9059]

*by now, I am confident that you have realized two things are true. Modern brass {being reinforced and stronger} is also reduced in internal capacity. And, the LEVER length modern black load for 45-70-405 is actually not a full 70 grains... That much simply will not fit, properly. 45-60-405 or 45-65-405. Or, in 45-90 length action {longer than 2.50" overall length cartridge} 45-60-500 or 45-65-500 with a lot of round nose showing. These numbers will vary according to actual internal capacity of your brass, powder density, powder granulation and seating depth.*

[@soylentgreen7074]

I’d slug the bore. Maybe your bullets are too small and you have a larger than average bore from wear. Notice after the first shot keyholes on the second group the other don’t because the BP fouling probably took up the gap. Probably gonna need some .459”, .460” or bigger cast bullets. Or during reloading were you shaving any lead? Maybe didn’t open up the case mouth enough? Do you have a veggie wad under the bullet to protect it from damage from the powder explosion? Maybe you cast the lead too soft? Edit: I’m commenting while watching and only 10 min so you seem to be figuring it out. Edit 2: my original 1889 made 1886 and modern Pedersoli reproduction both like .459” 405gr. I don’t cast I buy them from Montana bullet works and Missouri bullet company. Maybe mimic their alloy? I’d have to look on the website but I believe they’re 20:1.

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

Thanks Soylent, the fouling certainly helped with accuracy in all the loads but Swiss. I will slug the bore to address the possibility of a small bullet. I do have a veggie wad under the bullet. Todd

[@soylentgreen7074]

@@frontierwesternheritage1356 good luck! I’m the same as you I prefer the traditional way. The old original powder vids were neat.

[@devmeistersuperprecision4155]

@@soylentgreen7074smokeless had come a long way but there is something about using BP that simply improves the experience.

[@soylentgreen7074]

@@devmeistersuperprecision4155 i agree. I now cast my own bullets as well for the full experience.

[@devmeistersuperprecision4155]

@@soylentgreen7074 we once had a president called Obama. He wanted to “signature” bullets some way. Micro something that I didn’t understand. At the same time I had to replace lead drain pipe in my old house. That was I got into casting slugs. At first I used a weed burner but then I bought a Lyman lead furnace. The first attempts in 45-70 were all over the place. Now I use bullet alloys. Mostly virgin so I know what alloy I have and not a witches brew.

[@tombrown6464]

Your video just popped up in my reccomendations and I realize I'm 3 weeks late to the party but might I suggest that you drop to 65 grains of the Swiss 1.5 and try again. You will probaby need to add a .030 or .060 wad over the top of the compressed powder. In my opinion, the 1.5f is the best granulation to use in that cartridge. A 1:22 twist is awfully fast for a cast lead bullet and black powder.

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

Thanks Tom. I haven't had the chance to get to the range, but I'll try the load when I do. I had a .030 wad in the loads in the video. I can double it if I need too. Thanks for watching. Todd

[@rogervincent8314]

@@frontierwesternheritage1356 have you tried paper patch bullets? maybe the paper with give better bullet to barrel contact. have you checked the greenhill formula to see what is the maximum weight to twist ratio the faster the twist the heavier the bullet will stabilize.

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

@Roger Vincent I'm editing the 2023 trial of the 1886. It gets a lot better. Todd

[@sasquatch885]

Good information Dr. I just picked up a Springfield Trapdoor Carbine. Can you do a video on that?😉

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

Bring it by. Let's go to work. Todd

[@sasquatch885]

I asked the wife if I could take a trip to Montana……she said no.😬

[@JamesHavens-sk2uw]

Perhaps that’s part of the reason history went with smokeless

[@tombrown6464]

What I saw watching the video, your first three shots were on the 9 line at 4 o'clock, your 4th shot was just to the left of that group and your 5th shot was just right of the X.

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

Thanks Tom, I'm still working on the load. I have slightly larger diameter cast bullets and will test some more powder charges. Thanks for watching. Todd

[@tombrown6464]

@@frontierwesternheritage1356 if I hadn't been watching on my large screen tv I would have missed the third shot going through the same hole. There was the slightest bit of paper flicker as it passed through. BTW, I'm quite envious if the fact that you have an '86 in .45-70.

[@453421abcdefg12345]

That is very disappointing, to have flyers like that on a clean barrel looks like bullet diameter, but then you get a good group, I would have thought it was a lube problem, but with a 45/70 you have no room for a grease wad, is there any sign of lube around the muzzle? I find SPG works best on 45/120, (Sharps). Keep trying, although wait until the wind drops! Chris B.

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

Thanks Chris, I'm going to slug the barrel with one of these bullets and take a look at the rifling marks. I'll also swith up the powder and try another batch. I'm curious what Fg will do. Todd.

[@453421abcdefg12345]

@@frontierwesternheritage1356 As it is probably a 7 groove rifling it is difficult to measure unless you have a 3 anvil micrometer, I slug up a full groove slug and bore a hole on the lathe until it just enters the hole, the problem we get with black powder is that even an undersize bullet obturates to groove size, but not always the same way, that is why we get less leading with soft bullets than hard as they upset easier to groove size, where the hard cast do not, and allow gas blow by. but .002" over groove works more consistently. Keep at it Todd, that is the fun of shooting these old rifles! Chris B.

[@pacanis]

Would love to see a conclusion to this. I can only imagine it was a bullet problem. Diameter? Hardness? Inconsistencies? You need a chrony. Man's best friend when reloading. Maybe your Extreme Spread was... extreme. Even with hand weighing each charge.

[@ThisOldHorn]

I shoot BP Silouette 45/70 and I was shocked to clearly see your second shot with the Swiss 1.5F go through the same hole! When you look at the Go-Pro recording, watch that first shot hole. I shoot Swiss 1.5 with 65 gr under a 530gr lubed bullet from a Win HighWall and ring the ram every time. Every time I have tried to get higher v, the bullet keyholes. Go figger, huh?

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

Thanks Rob, I have better luck when I slow things down. More stability as well. I'll go back and look, but I think I pointed out the two-shot hole later in the video. Thanks for watching, Todd

[@peteralexben]

a longer bullet needs a faster twist to stabilise

[@Rustygulley-r3r]

Mike Bellevue talks about using PRS bullets because they hold the right amount of lube.

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

Thanks Rusty, I don't believe I've seen that video. I'll look it up. Todd

[@nickroepke2964]

Id try running a bullet .002 bigger than what you have and starting around 55 grains and working up in 5 grain increments, getting hit by a 45 caliber bullet pushed by 55 grains of powder carries more kinetic energy than a miss pushed by 70

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

That is a point very well put. Todd

[@Strutingeagle]

The bullet is a bit long for the slow speeds of black powder with that rifle. I can see why you want to use that bullet but the rifle is what it is. Also for load development you should avoid shooting inside of a tornado. It affects your shooting and one helluva annoyance to the audience.

[@ej7447]

I found I got better when I had a rear bag that was tall enough to rest the butt stock, combined with a front bag high enough to be on target. Bags just give much less movement for this 75 year old.......love to shoot Winchesters and Marlins......fun times.

[@markarchibald45]

All 5 are on target.

[@tbcoachniblick1208]

Smokeless powder cause we have too many ferral pigs in Texas...!!!

[@chrisevansgunshorsesranchi699]

Great video !!! I have done some vidoes with a Browning 1886 45-70 and smokeless powder. It can be frustrating at times. Keep the good video's coming. You may find my channel interesting

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

Thanks for watching, Chris. I'll check out your channel. Todd

[@chrisevansgunshorsesranchi699]

@@frontierwesternheritage1356 You and I have some of the same interest in guns for sure. I haven't got into the black powder cartridge loading like you. I think for the main reason i am too lazy to do all of the cleaning that goes with back powder. I do love the guns of that time in history.

[@ronklug6395]

405 grain doesn’t work in a 1886 Winchester. You need the 292 grain bullet Lyman has a mold for this.

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

Thanks Ron, That's interesting. The 405 grain bullet has been labeled the traditional bullet for 1886 in 45-70. I'll look into it. Todd

[@preyingmathis2517]

Ya,too fast makes sense to me

[@peterwright217]

key hole = wad stuck to the bottom of projectile.

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

Thanks Peter, That's a plausible theory. Could be. Todd

[@7come11two]

Made my ass want to dip snuff.

[@wilmamcdermott3065]

All powder not gun or shooter 4570 can be finiky as my 4590

[@frontierwesternheritage1356]

Thanks for watching. I'm sure you're right. I'll get back to trying new loads soon. Todd

[@Tammy-un3ql]

👌👌✔✔

[@tonydeaton1967]

I was gonna say maybe you're pushing it too fast. In my modern guns I use 350gr hardcast bullets with a .459 diameter.