Lonely B-24 Wreck From a Forgotten Battle

[@TillyOrifice]

It should stay exactly where it is. It's a piece of history, absolutely authentic and fascinating.

[@bad74maverick1]

It will eventually disappear. There is enough left to restore and put on display. Don't let her rot away.

[@enricomandragona163]

​@@bad74maverick1agreed

[@dylanmccallister1888]

Aluminum corrodes in salt. This wont be there for another 80 years. The deterioration you see was all done by nature not people. Another 20 years the spars will be mostly aluminum oxide. If you have ever owned an ocean going vessel you know all about it. There is only ONE b24 that is airworthy left. It should be saved so people can actually see it in a museum or something. Leaving it there is the opposite of preserving history, its letting it be forgotten

[@jameseasterbrooks5363]

In May 1987 I did a detachment to Adak with my F-14 squadron VF-51. I flew combat air patrol west of Kisha to deter Russian Bear bombers from flying into US airspace. On our returns to Adak we would fly fairly low and and took pictures of many of the crashed US and even some Japanese aircraft. It was like time was suspended, as everything was just abandoned in place. I even have picture of the B-24 in this video. An amazing campaign by very brave men that most Americans don’t even know occurred!

[@FloridaBeachesToTheBeringSea]

Great comment! It is exactly like that, a battleground suspended in time. It is one of the most in tact battle sites in existence because of the weather and remoteness. I would love to see the photos to compare how much has changed since then. And you are absolutely correct- I have been doing this 12 years and MOST people have no idea it happened... even history buffs. Which was the impetus for me to start this mission of honor. Thanks for watching!

[@FloridaBeachesToTheBeringSea]

And so were you stationed out at Adak?

[@jameseasterbrooks5363]

No, F-14 squadrons were stationed in San Diego at NAS Miramar in 1987. We were on a two week detachment to Adak to deter the Russians from flying into US airspace.

[@jameseasterbrooks5363]

Do you have an email where I can send the scanned photos? I don't see one associated with this site or on your blog page?

[@FloridaBeachesToTheBeringSea]

@@jameseasterbrooks5363 send them to [e-mail]

[@garyhooper1820]

An eternal site to remind us of all the airmen lost to the battle fought there . Thank You and may God Bless you my Countrymen.

[@jgonzalez101]

It has been laid to rest, it passed her test. It landed with all her passengers alive and intact. Thank God they made it back!❤🙏🇺🇸

[@svenlarson6981]

My late father in law, Ralph Maloof, was stationed at Shemya AAF during the war. He primarily flew P-38’s and he recounted so many stories before he passed September 2023, a month before his 99th birthday. The Aleutians have the most inhospitable flying weather north of the equator and as a fellow pilot I have nothing but respect and admiration for what the members of The Greatest Generation had to deal with while stationed there.

[@FloridaBeachesToTheBeringSea]

Fantastic! Oh man, I wish I knew about Ralph sooner, in 2017 and 2018 we flew nine veterans to Dutch Harbor to commemorate the 75th Anniversary of the Bombing and the beginning of the Aleutian Campaign, then in 2018 we flew them back to Anchorage to commemorate the 75th Anniversary of the Battle of Attu. It would have been amazing to have him be part of it! Additionally, before Covid, I travelled across the country to collect the oral history of Aleutian Island veterans for the National Park Service ensuring their stores are preserved forever. I loved doing that so much. I would love to hear more about Ralph and maybe capture his story to put on the Park Service page. This summer I flew on a 1942 Widgeon from ANC to DUT retracing their route to the Aleutians... it was incredible. There is a two part video series of the trip on my channel. Check it out! I LOVE to stay in contact with Aleutian veteran families so please shoot me an email. I am hoping to plan a reunion. And YES- it is still terrible flying weather and those who still fly there are greatly under respected. Thanks so much for the comment!

[@enricomandragona163]

Kudos

[@michaelhuget2253]

I am lucky enough to have visited her . Some of the friendliest natives I have ever met. Love Atka

[@FloridaBeachesToTheBeringSea]

Love this comment! The people of the Aleutian Islands are special and so sweet. Love the communities along the chain.

[@bradgray8064]

Let her sleep. She looks comfortable.

[@DRAGONSLAYER1220]

My father built B-24's at Consolidated's Ft Worth Tx plant. As much as I would love to see another Liberator restored, I have to agree in this case: Let her rest.

[@JeffreyWilliams-dr7qe]

​@DRAGONSLAYERMom too ?1220

[@waynemetevia7983]

I agree

[@jessphuqette1716]

Amen🙏

[@DRAGONSLAYER1220]

@@JeffreyWilliams-dr7qe Nope. Mother stayed home with my 2 older brothers, feeding & clothing them out of ration books.

[@goatflieg]

Another great video. I agree that it should be left as is. Not enough left to be worth recovering; it should be preserved as a historical site.

[@michaelmcgovern8110]

Having this wreck site historically preserved was genius!!! Nice work, EVERYbody!

[@MachTuck]

Yes, let her rest in peace right on her spot. Great footage

[@jimfinlaw4537]

Great video. Thanks for sharing. They should let that B-24D Liberator bomber sleep where its at. My father flew B-24D's as a co-pilot for the 512th Bomb Squadron, 376th Bomb Group, 15th Air Force when he was stationed at Benghasi, Libya in North Africa. He flew on the infamous low level raid against the Nazi Oil Refinery Plant in Ploesti, Romania on 1 August 1943 and survived. He suffered from PTSD after that raid and he never like to talk about it.

[@FloridaBeachesToTheBeringSea]

Thank you for sharing your father's story. That is so common in veterans, they tend not to talk about it until they are into their 80's.. Unless you were there, it is hard to describe and when you start, it opens up an entire can of worms and emotions. Bless his service. Lest we forget.

[@enricomandragona163]

Kudos to your dad. Wasn't a movie made from this raid?

[@FloridaBeachesToTheBeringSea]

@@enricomandragona163 Not that I know of but there should be!

[@chrisward7085]

Thank you very much for taking the time to make such an interesting and well delivered video. Yes, the Aleutian campaign is largely forgotten, and the area in general is completely unknown by most people. I feel the wreck should stay in situ, but on the other hand, this means that the wreck will be lost once the aluminium and fixings reach the stage where the winds just blow it apart.

[@FloridaBeachesToTheBeringSea]

This is very true. I think I will add to my goal items is to push for an interpretive panel to be placed at the mouth of the Bay, similar to a monument so that it can outlive the airplane in the many decades ahead.

[@ShadowDragon8685]

Putting this plane on a list of "valor in the pacific" makes me think of the old saw of "Lions led by donkeys."

[@harrykrebs]

Been to Atka in the 90's, with the Alaska Department of Public Safety, the place is very remote, and the weather is unbelievable, "birthplace of the winds", wild seas, constantly overcast, and not to mention numerous active volcanoes. When I first arrived I thought I was on a foreign planet, just too different from anywhere I had ever been before. I am grateful for the experience; however, I understand just how far away the place is, not feasible for any retrieving operation. Go there in person, see for yourself.

[@FloridaBeachesToTheBeringSea]

Thanks for the comment, it is hard to put into words how remote the area is and for a serviceman, on both sides, to be stationed in such an isolated place with the challenges of weather and boredom after the initial conflict was over... I LOVE the Aleutians when the weather is nice, which is less often than not. But It is like a forge in planet, one I recommend at least visiting. I am glad you have! Thanks for the comment.

[@harrykrebs]

@@FloridaBeachesToTheBeringSea 😊

[@natejones902]

First, this is very awesome. You're doing this for your grandpas memory. So my 2 cents on the bomber is all i can afford. From one who has restored a few WWII vehicles in the memory of my grandpa from wwìi I would say bring her home. She does no good sitting there being forgotten when she does better being seen by tomorrows generations in person. Im going to use a recent example to make my case. Last week, I did a WWII display at my girls' school. Me and some friends drove a convoy of WWII trucks and halftacks to the school, even picked my my girls up in the truck (WC51) i was driving and took them to school, I then gave the whole school a bunch of rides in the truck. Following all that, we watched the B29 DOC fly in. My girls got to watch the B29 take-off, fly aroundand land. Now ask yourself, if those trucks were left to rot in a field or DOC even, was sitting on a target range before she was dragged off and restored, would the impact have been as great on all those kids if I just showed them a video? Or seeing the machines running in person?

[@FloridaBeachesToTheBeringSea]

You watched Doc fly in? Were you in Allentown? I was on that flight! I flew in with them from Virginia. : )

[@natejones902]

@FloridaBeachesToTheBeringSea I watched her fly into Newport News with my 3 daughters. Earlier that day I drove them to school in a 1942 Weapons Carrier. They all agreed if those trucks on that bomber were left to rot in a field, they'd never apericate them like they do now.

[@modeltraingeek6544]

On one hand removing her to a more appropriate venue to save her long term would mean more people would for a long time be able to see her and remember because where she rests is difficult for many to come and pay respects but on the other as one person has said she looks comfortable and I would imagine quite tired too a lovely story and video tank you so much for sharing such a wonderful story 🫡

[@daniedevite6781]

Thank you so very much, Leave it as is!

[@olentangy74]

Great video! My uncle was a ball turret gunner on B-24’s in the ETO, so the Liberator has a special place for me. One one hand it would be great to recover the plane, but for all the logistics you mentioned it probably never will.

[@JD-tn5lz]

Absolutely not. Eff you. It is a monument exactly where it is, if you've never been down the chain (I have, am State of Alaska employee) you won't be able to understand it. In a climate controlled museum it means less than nothing.

[@olentangy74]

@@JD-tn5lz Eff you ? lol. I haven’t been to Alaska, but I have been on Saipan, Palua, Yap, Guam, and have seen a lot of war relics of every kind. There were some that seemed appropriate where they were, and others that were one of a kind that will never be seen again. Some of them should be and have been retrieved to be restored and preserved for the ages.

[@thefreestylefrEaK]

Great work Karen. Thanks for passing along an interesting piece of WW2 history.

[@FloridaBeachesToTheBeringSea]

As I always say, I have the easy part. They had the hard part. Thanks for the comment!

[@NYCjohnDoe]

My first Naval assignment in the USN Seabee's as a CE was at Adak Alaska. Assigned to Public works. Aug 87 - March 89

[@patrickshannon4854]

What interested me the most was a small, Japanese infantry howitzer, briefly shown in your introductory scenes. The aircraft' location is so remote, you wonder who the heck would be around to scavenge the wreck. But, there it is, picked clean, like Thanksgiving turkey carcass.

[@ralphwatt8752]

Thankyou much appreciated

[@FloridaBeachesToTheBeringSea]

You are very welcome!! Thanks for watching!

[@johngilbert6036]

Brutal would be a accurate Description of the area. I flew over it coming home from Vietnam. It was 50 degrees at Anchorage airport and we were cold having come from 110 degree climate. the view was beautiful flying over the Alaskan Rockies. You are blessed to be exposed to the place.

[@davidbarnsley8486]

Just leave it be I think but what a great job the pilot did to land it in such great shape

[@FloridaBeachesToTheBeringSea]

He sure did! I'll have to look into whether he got an air medal for it. Likely so.

[@kilcar]

Great story, thanks! I wanted to visit the two islands my dad worked on as a Seabee in the Pacific. Woodlark, Banika, and also Milne Bay, New Guinea. But that's a young persons expedition! Again, great story, thank you. We must Never Forget.

[@FloridaBeachesToTheBeringSea]

Thanks for you comment and thank you to your Dad for his service. Our oldest tour goer was 76, second oldest 73! Inspirational.

[@Jimbo-in-Thailand]

👍👍 @Florida... Very interesting video! My dad was stationed at Adak in 1949-1950. Formerly a young WWII B-25 pilot who served in N. Africa in 1943, he flew search and rescue missions in the Aleutians. He told me it was the most treacherous unpredictable weather conditions he'd ever flown in. That says a lot considering his AAC/USAF career spanned 21 years. After he got settled in at Adak for a few months, my mother and older brother were able to join him there. In fact, my sister was born in Adak January 1950. In later years both siblings went back to visit Adak, although at different times. It's sad that the US military eventually abandoned Adak (in the 1990s?), and I guess other military facilities in the Aleutians as well. Yep, a lot of history there. Regards from Thailand!

[@FloridaBeachesToTheBeringSea]

Thanks so much for the comment! Adak had a bustling little base post war. What was he flying up there for search and rescues at that time? It is sad to see the ruins, history forgotten. I really enjoy bringing family members back there and now on this platform, sharing the history of such a forgotten place. Let me know if you ever want to visit!

[@Jimbo-in-Thailand]

@@FloridaBeachesToTheBeringSea You're so welcome, dear. I think my dad mentioned he flew the Grumman Albatross SA-16 seaplane for search and rescue in the Aleutians. He also flew the C-47 while there. Regarding visiting Adak, I admit I have thought about it a time or two, but I was born at a military hospital in Aurora, Colorado after my dad finished his Adak tour so don't have a huge desire to go there, only a little curiosity. OTOH I would definitely enjoy some frigid weather for a change. Here in northeast Thailand, we've had almost daily record breaking high temperatures for the past month from 105°F - 108F°! I've been here 20 years and it's never been this hot. Come on rainy season!

[@FloridaBeachesToTheBeringSea]

@@Jimbo-in-Thailand LOVE the Albatross, did not know they were in the Aleutians, makes total sense. Something new for me t research, any photos? As for the heat, I live in Florida and I can relate to the heat!! Can't wait to head to Alaska for the summer to escape the oppressive heat and humidity, at least for a while.

[@Jimbo-in-Thailand]

@@FloridaBeachesToTheBeringSea Sorry, I don't have any Aleutians family photos but will ask my sister. Regarding Florida, I love the Keys. My younger brother and I used to make annual pilgrimages there in the 1990s, always with Jimmy Buffett tunes playing in the background. In the late 1990s my then-gf and I did a 9-day bareboat sailboat charter out of Key Largo heading for Key West. We ran out of time before getting there, but WOW what an amazing and fun adventure that was! Oh almost forgot. In later life my mom revealed that I was conceived in Tampa, after Adak, but before Dad got transferred to Lowry AFB, Colorado. Maybe that's why I've always had warm and fuzzy feelings for Florida. Haha!

[@FloridaBeachesToTheBeringSea]

@@Jimbo-in-Thailand That could very well be! I am not far from Tampa- great area to FL to be in.. besides the traffic!

[@deemoe6051]

My grandfather was stationed on Adak and was part of the crew that built the airfield. Was sent to Fort Hood (became a drill sergeant), he never said much (very terse), but did indicate it was quite the difference in temperature that was quite difficult to adapt to (after 4+ years of cold winters), but he had to so he did. :)

[@SeanRCope]

As a Sea Cadet I’ve been out to Kiska in 83 for a few days. We placed a 40 year anniversary monument. Also visited Adak, Dutch harbor Kodiak and anchorage. Fantastic summer

[@FloridaBeachesToTheBeringSea]

I believe I have seen that monument! I have been three times so far. Is it the one that is dedicated to the fallen "Men of Amphibious Task Force 9?" It was placed there in 1983. It is still looking good.

[@SeanRCope]

@@FloridaBeachesToTheBeringSea wish I could say the same, lol. Yeah to be honest that was the best 3 days of my life. I had run of the island, tunnel ships bunkers. It was all still there.

[@FloridaBeachesToTheBeringSea]

@@SeanRCope I could easily spend a month on Kiska exploring.. I'll have more episodes coming up, it is one of my favorite places to explore. Did you get over to Gertrude Cove?

[@SeanRCope]

@@FloridaBeachesToTheBeringSea No, Kiska Harbor area mostly.

[@FloridaBeachesToTheBeringSea]

@@SeanRCope Very cool. Well I look forward to your comments on my Kiska videos then! I am always curious to see how it changed over the years... Did you make it to the sub base?

[@snake5838]

Easily enough left of the plane to be restored. Many WWII aircraft have been restored with far less. And it is a crash site, not a grave site. Definitely worth recovering and preserving, although the remoteness would be financially challenging.

[@mikearakelian6368]

You going to pay fir it???

[@JD-tn5lz]

Other commentator said it well. Are you paying for it? I'm not, I pay for enough idiocy with my tax dollars. I've lived and worked in rural Alaska most of my adult life. That includes village living next to the Bering Sea and that includes having been down the Chain responding to calls for service. I've been shot at and I'd rather be shot at than go in for another bad landing in the Aleutians. These videos you see are the NICEST days of the year. So yeah, from this Alaskan, you can go to he**

[@nealrehm6900]

I should amend my comment by saying the P 39 was the only surviving N version.

[@ericsuessfrpd305tuco]

There’s several groups out there that restore these aircraft. I flew in one such B24 not too long ago. I believe there are only two remaining that fly. If it’s restorable, it should be restored rather than letting it disintegrate in the middle of nowhere.

[@bad74maverick1]

@@JD-tn5lz Private groups who operate on donations not taxes restore these aircraft. Very few are restored with tax payer money.

[@crushingvanessa3277]

It could be only restored to static display in my opinion, the cost and resources to make it flyable would be to much. Even restoring it would be a huge job since so much was taken from it. Trying to find all the missing parts which are sitting in someones basement or at a flea market would be impossible to find. Volunteers, people that know how to properly repair the airframe are all needed. But if it's left there, it'll still get vandaled and stripped since no one lives beside it. Just thinking of that former school bus that was left in Alaska as a shelter for hikers, it was stripped, vandaled to, meanwhile it was driven there. It was airlifted to an airbase and never seen again. People just don't appreciate something like this. I'd love to see this plane recovered and restored since it's not a grave site. Although I'm not the one paying either so I can't really speak for it.

[@enricomandragona163]

Agreed

[@johnbruce2868]

There are quite a few B-24 crash sites in the UK. I've visited those at the Fairy Lochs, Shielding, Scotland and Mill Hill, Peak district, England. There are very poignant memorials to those brave American Airmen who died in both crashes but both planes are broken, smashed, into many fragmented pieces. Although the UK sites are 'remote', they receive regular visitors. However, they are nowhere near as remote as Atka Island that is exceedingly difficult to visit. Unlike the UK sites, nobody died in the Atka incident. I think recovering the aircraft and placing it in an Alaskan Museum (either restored or as found), in somewhere more accessible like Anchorage, would enable more people from around the World to learn about the defence of the Aleutian Islands which, as you acknowledge, is otherwise forgotten. This would encourage people to learn more about the service of Americans and Canadians stationed on the islands. I'd never have thought twice about the Aleutians in WWII until the YT algorithm recommended your website. Having a beautifully preserved plane mouldering away, largely forgotten and inaccessible, when it could be employed to increase awareness of the sacrifices of Americans in the Aleutians seems rather wasteful. There are many individual memorials in the UK (like that of Bletsoe, Mi Amigo, the Eighth Airforce Memorial Sites) to American Airmen who died during WWII on this island so it seems most fitting to do the same thing on American soil, if only to increase awareness and respect. ATB. Just my thoughts... you requested them.

[@enricomandragona163]

Agreed

[@dyer2cycle]

Everybody keeps saying "leave it be", but, it isn't a war grave, and even though I might have said "leave it be" several years ago, the truth is, all these wrecks that are left are succumbing to decades and decades of the elements, and not too far in the future there will be nothing left to see...I think these few remaining remnants should be recovered and restored to static display....

[@lynnnordby6924]

Very Interesting. My father worked on the Alaska Highway through Canada and at Ladd Field in Fairbanks and my grandfather helped build the Bluie West bases in Greenland.

[@FloridaBeachesToTheBeringSea]

Very cool! I have been reading a few books on that written by the daughter of one of the commanders. It is titled "We Fought The Road." I finally had the chance to travel on part of it last summer, eventually I'll make a video on that trip. We drove from Anchorage to Beaver Creek, Yukon, where the ALCAN was completed, completed in the sense that is the point where the northern and southern construction forces finally met completing a through road! I can't wait to drive it all and document the way.

[@alphasportstv]

Great stuff, I look forward to more!

[@mikecrawford6284]

That was a very interesting story. Thank you for doing what you do.

[@FloridaBeachesToTheBeringSea]

It is the very least I can do for the freedoms that they gave us. Thank you for watching!

[@NS-ex6cm]

Of course it should be recovered and restored. Its a shame to be rotten away this way.

[@redneckgarage2259]

It is made from aluminum... It will not rot

[@williambarry8015]

That thing is too far gone otherwise those vintage airplane restoring geniuses would have plucked it out of there long long ago.

[@MrBumbles2]

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ plus a few more million might get it done.

[@JD-tn5lz]

NO. It is a testament to the men who served exactly where it lays, it's a testament to no one sitting in a climate controlled Lower 48 museum. It means nothing seen in comfort, spend some real money and time and visit the chain, then you may begin to understand. Sitting in a museum? That's like looking at a photo of a hamburger. It would cost many millions $$$$ and I've been down the chain (I work for the State of Alaska) and it's just another stupid 48er idea from a 48er. This video? It was taken on one of nicest days of the year, seriously. Go to he** 48

[@oneninerniner3427]

Hmm, looks like a lot of corrosion! Yah gotta wonder if a restoration would even yield very many usable parts out of it. Probably leave her be huh? Especially because of it's remote inhospitable location.

[@BLD426]

Great vid. Tks..

[@FloridaBeachesToTheBeringSea]

Thanks for watching!

[@williamdixon1992]

My Dad was in the Army and was sent there. He was in Company K. I heard him talking about Atna and an Island called Sitka

[@FloridaBeachesToTheBeringSea]

Thanks for the comment and telling me about your dad! Was he in the landing on Attu? Company K played a significant role in clearing then securing the Holtz Bay- Chichagof Harbor pass, a heavily entrenched area. That would have been May 1943...

[@ColinBarrett001]

Great video. Thank you for sharing.

[@FloridaBeachesToTheBeringSea]

Thanks for watching!

[@earlelkins9086]

They dug out that p38 from the depths of the ice.. it flies today.

[@StevenSmith-pt8rz]

You’re talking about the p38 that was named the Glacier Girl . Went many times to see it in Kentucky when it was being restored.It was an incredible undertaking. Every part to the smallest piece had to be rebuilt. Sadly the man who financed , recovered and had it rebuilt never had the chance to fly in her. Last I heard after he passed away it was sold and now resides in Commifornia.

[@davidproudfoot6390]

Excellent video

[@FloridaBeachesToTheBeringSea]

Thank you and thanks for watching!

[@Auggies1956]

There was a B24 recovered by the military a few years ago in the area of Alaska.

[@FloridaBeachesToTheBeringSea]

I am not familiar, I'll need to look into that!

[@fredmanicke5078]

According to the Pacific theater of operations daily reports of January of 1942, 75 aircraft were lost, but none due to enemy-Alaska. A good book is …’The thousand mile war’.

[@CHANNEL14-w4c]

It would be kind of hard to rebuild. It’s not all there, but it is cool.👍👍

[@YODAMAN5]

AWESOME info....ty

[@russflyin]

Subscribed! thanks for the upload, enjoyed it

[@FloridaBeachesToTheBeringSea]

Awesome, thank you!

[@raymondyee2008]

As much as I would like to see the Atka B-24 being restored I hate to see a replay of the B-29 “Kee Bird” in Greenland.

[@jonyoung6405]

I ve seen this a few times from the air. I think the corrosion is too much to restore aside from the logistic problems of recovery. Given enough time and money anything is possible. Thanks for sharing.

[@FloridaBeachesToTheBeringSea]

I have yet to fly over it! I have been there three times but not by air. What were you flying? Private of commercial on Grant?

[@jonyoung6405]

@@FloridaBeachesToTheBeringSea I was in the Coast Guard. Was in a C-130.

[@FloridaBeachesToTheBeringSea]

@@jonyoung6405 ahh, that explains it! Very cool. Thank you for your service! Were you stationed at Attu Station? In 2016, we hiked to the C-130 wreck (1982) that is south of the runway.

[@PhookYoo]

Great video!

[@FRITZI999]

Subscribed instantly ! :-)

[@FloridaBeachesToTheBeringSea]

Thank you!! Lots of fun stuff coming up! Bear with me as I try to get them finished.

[@ronbork684]

Thank you for the interesting story. By any chance has Ted Spencer visited, or perhaps knows the approximate location of the crash site, near Cape Kovrishka, Unalaska, of the PBY under the command of Ensign Fergus Kelly. If so, some family members of Commander Malcolm Hanson, who was among the eight that died in that crash, would like to know. His family are convinced that his mission on that PBY was top secret, and the plane may have been equipped with advanced radar equipment. Sadly the radar had been knocked by enemy fire while attacking Japanese ships during the battle of Attu on August 8, 1942. Like the bad weather you mentioned in your video, they became lost in the heavy fog on their way home to Dutch Harbor and crashed. The sole survivor, Harley Miller, the radio operator, never received a Purple Heart for his serious injuries sustained in that crash, and his lost crewmen never recieved acknowledgement as combat casualties. Even after having crashed and burned, and years of exposure, might one still be able to identify flak damage on the remains of that PBY, to support the families claims?

[@johnwkindig1613]

Hi there, I was associated with a museum that has actually tried to recover this B-24, about 8-10 years ago. The logistics of doing so are not actually that bad. There is a guy (I think out of anchorage) who has an old modified LST type ship with a huge central ramp and shallow draft. He was able to drive right up to beach, and had large steel cables and winches long to reach the bomber and simply pull it onto the ship. He has a track record of doing this exact maneuver for other historical wrecks like this. Our struggle was the government, we needed permission from 3 different parts of government to go and retrieve the plane for our museum, and had everything lined up and the ship on standby. Our only holdout of the 3 was the state of Alaska itself, they would not allow us to move the bomber as it would damage the environment (I mean come on, there's nothing there but moss, it will grow back in a couple years). Ultimately, that is the ONLY reason this bomber was not retrieved and restored, the government said no. The cost of retrieving ain't cheap, but it isn't astronomical, nor would it be logistically too difficult. It's a shame, it deserves to be better preserved, and it can be if the government would simply allow it.

[@FloridaBeachesToTheBeringSea]

Hi! Interesting comment, this aircraft has been listed as a national historic landmark since 1979 and also listed at part of the Valor in the Pacific monument sites since 2008. Not sure how an attempt to recover the aircraft would even be a talking point. It is a protected historical structure. Right or wrong, and I see both sides of the argument, I do a lot of work with airworthy warbirds, it is still protected. If it is going to stay, a better job needs to be done to tell the story of why it is there to more people.

[@johnwkindig1613]

@@FloridaBeachesToTheBeringSea It would not be the first time a historical site or artifact would be removed from its location for certian purposes or circumstances. Take the many southern civil war statues, or BB-3 Oregon during WWII, things are sometimes subject to change. The reason talks were had, is honestly its location. Yes it is listed as a landmark, but honestly how many people see it each year? A hundred? Likely even less? It could be viewed for its historical value by a much much larger crowd if it was recovered. But there is also the historical significance of leaving it where the history happened too. Like you said, two sides to every coin, but in this case, I personally think in better to recover the aircraft, and "some" of the government officials agreed with us. No matter, for now it lies dormant, mostly undisturbed, but likely some of the few who do see it up close are sneaking of with parts here and there, so I would wager the wreck is very slowly shrinking. The warbird enjoyer in me is pained at the thought of it, and would love to see the wreck recovered, maybe even restored, and even more maybe restored to airworthiness. We have dreams though...

[@FloridaBeachesToTheBeringSea]

@@johnwkindig1613 I hear every point in this. And it is shirking. I have seen it over the years. I am going to at the very least push to get an interpretive panel put up. I do a lot of work with warbirds so I understand completely. Keep Em Flying in most cases!!

[@markweber7275]

Due to the remote area, recover and either display as is in a sheltered location for all groups to share the sacrifices made by these airmen. Or restore it but not allow a private group to assume ownership then control of a monument is lost. Thank you for your reporting.

[@maxboost81]

I have no doubt someone with the money would be willing to restore it.. that said in that environment, I don’t imagine there would be much left of the original structure that could even be reused. It’s in a remote place to get to. I’m sure more than a headache. Would it really matter if someone took it to restore? It would be amazing to see an old bird fly again. ❤💯

[@leesherman100]

I saw a video years ago where this B-24 was recovered and restored to static at Elmendorf AFB. Correct me if I'm wrong!!

[@FloridaBeachesToTheBeringSea]

You are wrong. haha (you told me to correct you! ) That was a P-38G. And that was a P-38 from Attu that had crashed. The recovered and restored it and it is on display at Elmendorf. : )

[@aaaht3810]

My father served with the navy on Adak and Attu during WWII. He spoke about the weather often.

[@FloridaBeachesToTheBeringSea]

Thanks so much for sharing this! And thanks to your Dad for his service. The National Park Service has a site dedicated to honoring and memorializing those who served in Alaska. It would be great to have his story as part of the collection. Do you know what he did? What year he was there? I'll have some future episodes of Attu (and Adak actually,) I have been to Attu three times and Adak... at least six. It is magical when the sun is out... just does not happen that often. I have even been sunburned on Attu!

[@aaaht3810]

@@FloridaBeachesToTheBeringSea Dad served as a Warrant Officer with the 52nd Naval Construction Battalion (Sea Bees). I don't know enough details of his service as to what he did on the islands other than general construction of port facilities and buildings/infrastructure. He spoke mostly of Attu. So I guess that's where he spent most of his time. The only story your video brought to mind was when the war ended, Dad had his orders home and was waiting for a troop ship to leave Attu. His men had been helping the AAF guys load cargo on aircraft going back to the States. When they finished, in appreciation for his help, the AAF commander offered him a lift out on one of the aircraft rather than wait for the ship. Dad declined the offer for some reason. That aircraft subsequently crashed (I believe bad weather). When they then offered his another flight, the said "No, I think I'll just take the boat."

[@FloridaBeachesToTheBeringSea]

@@aaaht3810 Wow, what a story! It is no wonder he remembered that. The Aleutian front had the largest number of Seabeas of all. I have a photo collection from Bill Green who was in the 68th on Attu and I collected his oral history for the National Park Service Site- www.nps.gov/aleu/index.htm. If you wanted to find out what life was like for your dad stationed in such a remote area, check out the site. Or just stay tuned to the channel. : ) I LOVE to keep in contact with Aleutian veteran family members so shoot me an email if you can. Hoping to plan a family reunion one day.

[@frisk151]

Thanks!!

[@bad74maverick1]

She should be pulled and restored. there is enough there to build and display. Don't let her rot away.

[@paulzammataro7185]

And who will pay for that?

[@bad74maverick1]

@@paulzammataro7185 Foundations like the Collings foundation, yankee air museum and every other organization that fly these planes works off of donations and sales of apparel and air show ticket sales. If you volunteer to donate money it helps to preserve aircraft. If you don't, so be it.

[@bad74maverick1]

@@paulzammataro7185 Foundations like the collings foundation, yankee air museum, and others operate on donations, apparel sales, and air show funds. That's how they get seed money and look to wealthy benefactors who enjoy this kind of preservation, like the gentlemen who pulled the P-38 out of the Ice. They also operate with people who volunteer their time to help out. I used to donate time to the CAF, giving tours of the Sentimental Journey. If you wish to donate and volunteer time, great. If not, no big deal.

[@bad74maverick1]

@@paulzammataro7185 Dear youtube can you please stop deleting my post? There is nothing raunchy or offensive about it. I am answering a question. The foundations that take care of restoration and flights of these planes work on volunteers time, and donations through air show sales, rides, selling apparel and their museum tickets ect. They are all non profit so they have a tax exempt status on most things allowing them to keep their proceeds. Wealthy donors also help like the guys who paid to pull the P-38 out of the ice years ago.

[@ralfie8801]

If somebody has the means to recover and restore it, that would be a bigger monument to the men who flew it than letting it corrode away to nothing.

[@JD-tn5lz]

NO. It is only a monument by being EXACTLY where it is, as are all the other WW2 relics on the Chain. It means nothing sitting in a climate controlled Lower 48 museum. Maybe less than nothing. There are other restored B24s, go look at one of those. Leave my Alaska alone. It's our heritage, not yours.

[@mikeb5749]

A lot of forgotten history that we all should be learning about which is important to not repeat it

[@FloridaBeachesToTheBeringSea]

Indeed!

[@RandysFiftySevenChevy]

Good job, earned my sub.

[@FloridaBeachesToTheBeringSea]

Thank you! Working on a B-29 video coming up...

[@earlatkins9559]

Leave her be. She deserves to rest there. She did her job, and brought them home.

[@pilotmiami1]

Bravo.go ahead

[@alexandremarcelino7360]

Incrível! Muito interessante!🌟

[@flightforensics4523]

I know a P-38 from the same era and same area was recovered and "restored" as a display aircraft and on display at JBER in Anchorage. That P-38 was shot down by a Japanese fighter.

[@FloridaBeachesToTheBeringSea]

It was recovered! But it was not shot down. Lt. Robert Nesmith took out for a routine training mission, it had engine issues and he put it down in Temnac Valley on Attu in 1945. Long after any Japanese were around. It is one of the only G's around though and is on display at the Elmendorf Air park.

[@radiationking9875]

She should 100% be recovered, her crew went on to fly another day while the B24 laid abandoned, dumped. Most people to see her were from behind a photo. In a caring museum displayed exactly how she is there.

[@hobbyfarmer62]

Anyone who wants to learn more about WW2 in this region there is a book called "the 1000 mile war" very in depth.

[@FloridaBeachesToTheBeringSea]

My favorite book is Aleutian Warriors by John Cloe, the former 11th AF Historian. Not so poetic but he was the expert in the field. Another great book is War on Our Doorstep by Brendan Coyle.

[@davef.2329]

Build pole-barns, or similar shelter/structures over the pieces to preserve for a few more generations to see real history. Thanks for showing this.

[@FloridaBeachesToTheBeringSea]

I like your train of thought but even the logistics and cost of doing that is prohibitive. And it would, without a caretaker, have to stand up to the winds that constantly plague this area, it would have to mega strong. This are regularly gets hurricane force winds, and they just call it winter. I'd at least like to see a monument of some kind that recognizes its significance. I'm adding it to my list of goals.

[@davef.2329]

@@FloridaBeachesToTheBeringSea Interesting. With those kinds of winds, it's surprising that after all this time, the wing didn't lift up and blow/fly away somewhere, since the airfoil appears to be almost completely intact. Here in south Florida, during Hurricane Andrew, two WWII bombers from the (then) Week's Aircraft Museum lifted up and flew away, landing side-by-side on a railroad track a couple of mile away from the airport ramp.

[@FloridaBeachesToTheBeringSea]

@@davef.2329 I think the tundra is holding it in place. It is quite dug in. Other parts of the aircraft have been scattered about though.

[@JD-tn5lz]

​@@davef.2329bwahahahahahahahahahahaha. Gotta catch my breath... Hahahahahaha. Never been in muskeg before, huh? 😂😅🤣 A hurricane force gale has hit that craft a hundred times since it got there, it's not going anywhere

[@JD-tn5lz]

Really? Really really? Hahahaha. No. Even a simple pole barn or structure would cost a few million to place there and it would never survive. All of that to "preserve for future generations" of visitors? Of which only happens every three or four years? Take this to heart, I mean it sincerely and from the deepest of my soul... You Are Exactly the kind of person who gives us Alaskans perfect reasons to hold 48ers in contempt. Maybe that hurt your feelings. I don't care.

[@s.marcus3669]

KZbin is awash in amateur documentaries, many of which are just plain awful in their cartoonish graphics and over-the-top dramatic narration. You hit all the marks for a professional job; great video with no shakiness, narration spoken slowly and articulately with plenty of space between sentences. I particularly liked your video for a personal reason; my late brother Leonard lived in Anchorage and worked for E&E; Ecology and Environment. He traveled all over Alaska, including the Aleutians, inspecting oil storage tanks, gas tanks, etc. and monitoring for leakage, etc. He passed unexpectedly in 2011 at age 50 and I know he would love your video! Could the B-24 be recovered by a millionaire and brought back to dry land to be restored? Sure, but why do it? There are enough B-24s both static and flying and besides, it makes more sense to locate another navy plane in the Great Lakes and restore it as the frigid, clear water preserves them almost perfectly from the moment they crashed.

[@FloridaBeachesToTheBeringSea]

Thank you for that! I appreciate that. LOTS of environmental work still going on in the Aleutians as a result of the war. I am sorry to hear of his passing. Did he have a favorite island?

[@stepvanjoe3469]

My grandfather was there too never really talked about it other than it was colder than the Philippines

[@FloridaBeachesToTheBeringSea]

ha! definitely colder than the Philippines! Do you know what branch he was in? Or year?

[@TrevorSmith-w1o]

I think as no one died it should be recovered and restored as the story still remains, plus not many of these aircraft exist now

[@rocketqueenone]

Restore all of them !!

[@robertdrinkall8947]

It's in a remote location & would cost too much then remove.

[@CaddyJim]

Might have been worth recovering before it was stripped It is best left as a historical tribute since it's now only worth its scrap value since with such corrosive weather the only things left the engines are probably not even rebuildable

[@karaayers2867]

It should be recovered and restored. It is not a war grave. Much better than the condition of the FW200 that came out of a fjord and was completely rebuilt

[@Dinghy-hh2dp]

Yeah my great uncle went down on the uss grunion near kiska and atu.

[@FloridaBeachesToTheBeringSea]

Oh wow! I know the grunion story and have me the Abele family. Abele was the ships commander and his family have done enormous amounts of research about the sinking including locating and having video footage of it taken. I am sure you are familiar?

[@Dinghy-hh2dp]

More than familiar, my grandmothers sister was the wife of one of the radio operators. There are usually two. So the last transmission could have very well been him. Doel is the roster name. And yes I have wanted to build a scale model of it as it is today. Problem is the amount of damage would make it like trying to build A major airlines crash site (in detail.) this has been started but undoubtedly it would require a team of modelers to do it right.

[@Dinghy-hh2dp]

Yeah and one more thing I need the degrees of the sea floor it’s sitting on. The angle on which it sits to do it right.

[@MirceaD28]

Must be recovered at once.

[@sundance2005]

I have mixed feeling on recovering her, there aren't many of them left in any condition. As a retired aircraft mech I can tell you in her current condition that would be very very costly to restore as well as costly to recover. Considering that leave it as a monument on how useless for the most part management is.

[@FloridaBeachesToTheBeringSea]

Hahahahaha!

[@barrybristow4646]

A bit of both , let some live , some die . It's all a part of history.

[@andrewmacdonald4833]

If it is a tribute, it’s a very remote one that very few people will ever see. I think the old girl should be recovered.

[@enricomandragona163]

The reality is not an IF!!

[@johnwhitaker545]

They should build a structure around it. It will eventually be reclaimed by the earth if it’s left exposed like it is

[@adamthomas7514]

Since no one died during this accident it should be recovered and restored so it can be even more of a tribute to those who served & flew in WWII. I mean compare who's going to see it in the Aleutian Islands vs. The number of people that might see it If it were flying again.

[@guenterhollik3890]

Leave it alone. Leave it where it is

[@nealrehm6900]

It’s hard to believe that when the US Army went to Alaska, the troops were ill prepared for the cold and foggy weather. I have watched documentary programs about the native Alaskans, who are better prepared, and in fact were used as point observers during many of the battles. I love airplanes and it’s hard to believe the videos of the P3 nines, the P3 eight the P 40s and those B2 fives taking off through Rivers of water and landing the same way. Your dad must’ve had balls of steel! The army air core that fought in China after Claire Chennalt’s flying tigers, I think the 23rd fighter squadron, made up from some of the flying tigers, including Chennalt, believe it or not was the first combat ready airgroup in the US Army air core. It was formed right after Pearl Harbor and flew its first mission the same day. Another tidbit is that squadron also recovered a zero that dead stick into the ground and the ground crews were able to repair it and I’m pretty sure got it in the air. All of this is in the book sharks over China, by Carl. Molesworth. It is a fascinating book and hard to put down. I would love hearing more about your discoveries out on the western side of Alaska. NWR😊

[@nealrehm6900]

Let me amend my comment. That P 39 was the last surviving. N version.

[@FloridaBeachesToTheBeringSea]

The first recovered Zero that the US rebuilt is one from Akutan Island in the Aleutians. After a strafing run at Dutch Harbor, the Zero was hit by ground fire and landed wheels down on the boggy tundra. His zero flipped nose over and the pilot, assuringly broke his neck or drowned. It was recovered weeks later, barged back to San Diego and repaired and test flown by Sept/October 1942. Clair Chennault's oldest son Jack, commanded the 343rd fighter group in Alaska and lead the very first P-40s up there in January of 1942! A pioneer flight of its kind for the P-40. Thanks for watching!

[@nealrehm6900]

Now l’ll have to look up the chapter in the book and re-read it and see if I can come up with a date on that China zero. Because I would like to know which one was first.

[@FloridaBeachesToTheBeringSea]

@@nealrehm6900 I believe the China zero was first but it was not rebuilt and flown first.

[@nealrehm6900]

I have the book right here. I’ll see if I can get to it tonight.

[@wimreynders4856]

I think it should be recovered and maybe restored, before there is nothing left of it!

[@bjornmclir5015]

That B24 is no longer there, the U.S. military im not sure which branch removed it from the island sometime in the 90s or early 2000s and unfortunately they did terrible job recovering it. They cut it into peices and dragged it piece by piece to a landing craft on the beach and as far as i remember they scrapped it. Great video i like that you are keeping history alive.

[@mypl510]

It was restored and currently on display at Hill Aerospace Museum in Utah

[@bjornmclir5015]

@@mypl510 awesome thats great its restored i hadnt heard anything more after it was removed i appreciate the info im gonna have to check it out sometime thanks.

[@FloridaBeachesToTheBeringSea]

The B-24 is most certainly there. I lead WWII History Expeditions though the Aleutian Islands. I have been to see it three times. The B-24 you are referencing is 40-23908. It was flown my Lt. Earnest Pruett and crashed landed on Great Sitkin 18 Jan 43 after weather moved in and obscured the airfield at Adak, visibility was zero zero. They were returning from an aborted mission over Kiska Harbor. Also on the mission were 5 other 24s, four 26's and six 38s. The 26s and the 38s were successful in returning but the three of the Liberators were not. Two of the other 24s were not found, one 24 crashed on landing taking out a several of the 38s and another had to fly 720 miles further east to find an open runway at Cold Bay. Pruett survived the crash and the crew was later rescued. Great Sitkin is roughly 60 miles from their base at Adak.

[@FloridaBeachesToTheBeringSea]

The B-24 you are referencing is 40-23908 not the one on Atka. I lead WWII History Expeditions through the Aleutian Islands, I have seen it three times. The story of 40- 23908 was that it was flown by Lt. Earnest Pruett and crashed landed on Great Sitkin 18 Jan 43 after weather moved in and obscured the airfield at Adak, visibility was zero zero. They were returning from an aborted mission over Kiska Harbor. Also on the mission were 5 other 24s, four 26's and six 38s. The 26s and the 38s were successful in returning but the three of the Liberators were not. Two of the other 24s were not found, one 24 crashed on landing taking out a several of the 38s and another had to fly 720 miles further east to find an open runway at Cold Bay. Pruett survived the crash and the crew was later rescued. Great Sitkin is roughly 60 miles from their base at Adak.

[@bjornmclir5015]

Sorry my mistake i thought that was the one i had seen in a documentary being removed. Thats awesome that you got to go out there im sure it was probably great to be able to see a piece of history up close like that. I realy enjoy your videos, great work. I just watched your video on the japanese naval ships in dutch harbor im sure that was tough and kind of mixed feelings but you did a great job putting that video together. I realy appreciate your dedication to preserving history.

[@MetamorphicWonders]

Recover it. Theres enough left for a restoration.

[@SimonWallwork]

It's doing ok where it is.

[@josefigueroa5045]

Save it!

[@gonsolop2429]

As of 2009 when airworthy warbirds a B17 & B24 had landed at my local FBO, Both aircrewshad stated that nobody makes our parts anymore. Instead, parts are swapped out with certifidd refurbished parts. Which is why the ride alongs cost so much. Since then the U.S. Navy, in response to decaying warbird airframes, Litorally falling out of the skies, declared all previous U.S. Navy property " OFF LIMITS INDEFINITELY " . This does not however effect pre-2009 warbirds already owned & operated by private owners, etc, etc. There were no deaths at this B-24's ĺast resting spot & it was not shot down. There are indeed useable parts still on this wreck. Parts that can even be used as templates for existing warbirds today. Unless the aluminum is radioacive from A-boms dropped on Japan in 1945, why be a war monument? Afterall Aluminum in this state is poisoning the environment. Aluminum poisoning attacks human, animal, mammal, & sealife causing us to slowly lose our memory, thus damage the mind. I say ship it back to the states' mainland, if the U.S. Government will allow it to be used for templates, reserviceable parts, & scrap by U.S. warbird owners only.

[@thepuffinburrow]

Recover and restore if possible. No doubt about it. Better to preserve history than let it rot and all these planes need to be recovered. Increase theyre numbers. I'm sure somebody out there or some Organization Could come up with the money. I mean, they got that p-38 out of a glacier tomb years ago. Id think people could manage this

[@TemenosL]

I think a recovery would be a good thing, but the site should perhaps be granted a monument or statue of some sort to note what happened there. As for "restoration", I don't know how that's possible in the fullest sense, seeing as the plane is in several pieces and missing just about everything that would make it useful; it'd be more like building a new plane atop it, which would be exceedingly costly for not much gain. I think the remaining pieces ought to be cleaned up and taken to a museum of some sort to display. Letting her sit there is just going to let it rust away and fall to pieces, carried by nature and the wind all over the area. Frankly it's a pollutant/contamination issue for the local area, which I think is not right.

[@FlyingFortressBoeing]

How can you get onto the island? Are there publicly available tours or something?

[@FloridaBeachesToTheBeringSea]

You can fly to the village of Atka through small airlines (you may have to get permission or a permit from the Native Corporation first.) But then to get to the crash site is a whole other story. You'd have to hire a boat could be sketchy long boat ride.) You'd have to have time and patience. Another option is Aleutian Outfitters out of Adak, could do a long day trip there at a good penny. You'd fly into Adak on a 737 and go from there. There are no stores on Adak so you have to pack in your food and only two flights a week. I lead WWII History Expeditions through the Aleutian Islands usually from a 71ft boat and these islands are some of our stops. This would the only big tour but I can do other alternative tours also. If you want to know more, I can send you some info.

[@bruceday6799]

I would be very interested to see more pictures of the tail gunners station as this bomber has an early tail gunners station. The B-24 tail gunners station drawings of these early models no longer exist and photos would be of historical importance.

[@bruceday6799]

I don't know maybe its just that its upside down that makes me think its not a turret. Anyway WOW!

[@FloridaBeachesToTheBeringSea]

It is upside down. I am happy to send you what I have. Just send me an email. I hope to be back there soon.

[@edgaraldana4754]

Recover and restore it.

[@JoelHouser-pv6iu]

Desert camo pink elephants?

[@PapaSchlumpf78]

Realy? Wow!!!

[@FloridaBeachesToTheBeringSea]

Yep. Wow!

[@joncox9719]

I was on Akutan for 2 years, the local natives "Around 85" living on the island knew the history of recovering America's first Japanese Zero that was crippled during an attack on Dutch Harbor! The biggest thing to ever happen on that island and NONE of them could tell me wherethe site was of where the Zero was recovered and taking to evaluate back in the lower 48. I had to do all my own research, located the site and flew ovr to it on my way to Dutch HArbor one day. Of course there is nothing there, a Japanese delegation showed up back in the 80's I believe and recovered the Zero's pilot's body that died in the forced landing when the Zero flipped over and broke his neck. The US Forces that recovered the Zero buried the pilot there next to where the plane landed!

[@FloridaBeachesToTheBeringSea]

That is another fantastic little known story of the Aleutian Campaign, a very significant event. I almost had the chance to fly over the crash site this summer when we flew a 1942 Widgeon from Anchorage to Dutch Harbor. Weather prevented us from doing it so it is still on my list. A great book by Jim Reardon is Cracking the Zero Mystery. Great comment- thanks!

[@joncox9719]

@@FloridaBeachesToTheBeringSea Yes, it's on the south side of the island, can't remember the name of the bay, but easy to find!

[@FloridaBeachesToTheBeringSea]

@@joncox9719 Awesome, I will be sure to make a video when I eventually get over there!

[@meofnz2320]

By the time these wrecks are restored they are like the “Ship of Theseus”. The original spirit and history disappears. What you end up with is a brand new aircraft. Very nice, but disconnected.

[@ual737ret]

Believe it or not, that airplane could be restored. There are companies and museums out there that have restored WW2 aircraft that were in worse shape than that. It would take a lot of money to restore it though.

[@xray86delta]

You're right! I've seen them virtually rebuild a one-to-one copy of a World War II wreck with only a few original pieces!

[@BobSmith-dk8nw]

@@xray86delta The thing is - "building a new plane" is essentially what they are doing. .

[@FloridaBeachesToTheBeringSea]

For sure. There are several Aleutian wrecks that have been recovered and restored to airworthiness with way less, barely anything in fact. It is mostly about the associated costs. The restoration itself would be extremely costly but the recovery from where it is at also! It is logistically challenging therefore very costly which is one of the reasons this theater is so interesting. How they developed a series of bases along the chain 80 years ago in under two years is astonishing.

[@FloridaBeachesToTheBeringSea]

@@BobSmith-dk8nw Ha! Exactly. I am in awe of those who do it.

[@oldrust601]

I think there should be a plack there in memory of the soldiers in that plane and that plane ✈️ should be restored in memory and detection to the soldiers..... All abandoned military 🪖🎖️ equipment planes etcetera won't last forever.. nature will take over and it will be gone forever