Loner CHALLENGES Vaush on his framing of HAMAS

Vaush and Loner have an extremely productive conversation about Israel-Palestine where Loner challenges Vaush on a few points he made in a recent debate.
MOMENTS
00:00 Highlight Reel
05:00 Israel's Past Response
21:24 Vaush's Doomerism
33:06 Loner's 3 Moral Claims
47:00 Historical Protest Mvmts
59:44 Netanyahu's Regime Doesn't want Peace
1:13:00 Malcom X and non-peace
1:26:04 Left Wing Campism
1:35:11 the US's Own Border Issues
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#israelpalestineconflict #vaush #debate #destiny

[@worm.9008]

I've been hoping for this conversation between you guys for weeks and I'm really heartened to see it happen live and go so so so well 💖

[@Seth-ul1mn]

we'll get the vaush x lonerbox friendship to replace destiny x lonerbox

[@worm.9008]

@@Seth-ul1mn as far as I know they're already friends or at the very least on extremely friendly terms and I'm not interested in an either/or situation here. I think LB is a positive influence on both of them and if anything I'd be invested in him having more sway with Destiny so that he's that much less insufferable lol

[@StuartAtkinson4467]

@@worm.9008 Yeah Vaush tried that for years but the fact is sadly if LonerBox tried that too much Destiny would go batshit at him as well there's just a wall that Destiny cannot (for reasons unknown) pass over with regards to... basic care for humanity.

[@worm.9008]

@@StuartAtkinson4467 I became part of the Vowsh community after the falling out with Destiny so I don't really know much about how they interacted back then, but I do know that Destiny has some respect for LB intellectually and has recently been seeking him out for guidance on some subjects. I think that that deference and a generally friendly disposition toward LB means Destiny will be a bit less unhinged, at least on some things, and that's a welcome recourse lol

[@lampad4549]

​​@@StuartAtkinson4467can you show where vaush has tried that for years, maybe there is some clip I missed but all the clips I have seen is him calling destiny deranged, misrepresenting destiny's position and his community deplatformed destiny. Dont know how vaush has more consideration for humanity than destiny but maybe I missed all the clips where he doesn't advocate for violence against conservatives or glass israel.

[@marctech1996]

God what I would I give to always have this version of Vaush be a speaker for the left. He did more research, acknowledged some mistakes and accepted multiple nuanced points that he phrased very differently on his own stream. Still not perfect but extremely commendable.

[@DrippyWaffler]

This is pretty par for course for him tbh. When he speaks with people like lonerbox - ie, people who aren't there for the clout but to engage - this is what happens. But clips and stuff from those conversations aren't interesting, so they don't get shared around, the bombastic ones do

[@marctech1996]

@@DrippyWafflerOh I know that. I actually like and follow Vaush (for the most part). I started in the political sphere with Hasan because he is funny and witty but started hating pretty much all of his foreign policy takes. Obviously Vaush and Destiny are on very different ends of many conversations but I respect both of them. Lonerbox is the one guy that I found who is both intelligent, calm and I happen to agree with most of the time. Vaush tends to get more bombastic when he is on his own and I didn’t like that he hasn’t talked (until now) with anybody more knowledgeable to correct his misconceptions regarding this topic. Really glad that he didn’t just agree to this but took this as a chance to learn and have a genuine conversation, rather than a heated debate.

[@DJDiskmachine]

I agree on all points, hopefully this can be the start of a new 'arc'

[@Juel92]

Yeah this is the Vaush I wanna see all the time and not the hyperbolic simplistic version that's too common now.

[@Badbufon]

Vaush and Lonerbox are the only 2 streamers that actually do research streams that i know of. the other day Vaush view spanish/brazilian news networks and let chat translate, which i think was a great gesture of his part

[@aarondotkom]

Damn your new editor did Vaush dirty on that thumbnail. He’s no longer the neck bearded boy he once was, he’s now rocking designer wallets and a well groomed beard. RIP 🪦

[@idontwantahandlethough]

....owning a designer wallet and thinking it's cool is one of the most embarrassing things I've ever heard. I hope that was just a hypothetical or something lol (and that's coming from someone who is into lame shit, like wallets)

[@DinggisKhaaniMagtaal]

I too base my political opinions on what designer brands a political commentator wears

[@aarondotkom]

@@idontwantahandlethoughhahaha that whole part of the convo had me scratching my head. Of all the things to go to after being being complimented on how much better dressed and groomed one is now, Vaush went to wallets… 🤦🏻‍♂️

[@aarondotkom]

@@DinggisKhaaniMagtaalif your favorite Socialist doesn’t wear Gucci and Prada, are their political views even valid? I think not

[@DrippyWaffler]

​@@idontwantahandlethoughI mean he literally said he didn't want to talk about it cos he knew he would get roasted for it lmao

[@Pervatory]

Love both of you guys, glad this went well!

[@MyGraveDancer]

That was very nice. Thanks for the convo

[@SuperPal-tr3go]

I think the discussion on the Gaza-Israel conflict becomes way more sensible and useful when it goes beyond did Israel or Hamas do X and actually focuses on what needs to be done to create some kind of resolution and new status quo in the aftermath of the conflict.

[@jrock71]

LB said Israel should not concede to Hamas.....very strange and genocidal take

[@christian2i]

Useful for the powers that be, who have different priorities?

[@angelikaskoroszyn8495]

While it's important to look forwards you can't resolve the conflict until both sides (ugh) will come out clean and admit own crimes. Otherwise there's no way for mutual understanding and forgivness

[@topwomble]

​@@jrock71Why is not conceding to a terror group genocidal?

[@jrock71]

@@topwomble I just saw a clip of Vaush saying "even if the Houthis succeed and there's a cease fire, Im still good with America bombing Yemen" ......I think Vaush cares more about Biden's poll numbers tanking than the genocide in Gaza, therefore having this insane take

[@tiberseptim8434]

Vaush, when approached with good faith and a modicum of intelligence, makes an excellent conversationalist. Always interested when he’s talking with someone that isn’t a lunatic.

[@mkwke215]

The thing is vaush will never learn. He will go back to making the same type of sensationalist leftitst content

[@sathrielsatanson]

Too bad he is a lunatic very often.

[@adrian-dragosbalaban6401]

Aqua

[@markd.s.8625]

​@@adrian-dragosbalaban6401acqua, he said it in italian even if he was meaning to say agua big deal man.

[@marctech1996]

@@mkwke215He has gone back on multiple “America bad” positions in the past. Ukraine seems to have been a major turning point where he started doing more nuanced research. If Israel shows at least some restraint and a cohesive military strategy I think he could be put on the same path regarding the Israel Palestine issue.

[@duellinksantimeta7636]

It’s really cool that you talked to him

[@HistorySucksV]

Nice pfp

[@efrenyalung1348]

Saw this live and loved your convo!

[@Adze99]

This was wonderful to listen to live, and I hope you two get to speak again!

[@malikshabazz2065]

great stuff!

[@mkwke215]

The thumbnail 💀💀😂

[@bigsmoke4592]

pretty sure that's from 2021 when vaush made the angry soy face for fun and people have been using it ever since to make him look stupid. it's so childish but that's the internet

[@madeconomist458]

I believe one of the charities that Vaush is talking about at the 1:00:00 mark includes Defense for Children Palestine (DCIP), which was labeled a terrorist organization for alleged affiliation with PFLP. This was condemned by 9 EU countries and B'Tselem

[@re11ik96]

It is evident now that US and EU are not neutral third parties. (Censorship of protests and legitimate concerns, no coverage of SA's case in ICJ, etc.)

[@con-radical5481]

You're right. They keep track of Palestinian kids that are detained by Israel. I didn't know that was the reason, I read the UNHRC and the Amnesty report about it, apparently they had filed a complaint regarding the r*** of a 15-year-old in Al-Mascobiyya, W. Jerusalem, directly to the US State Dept. - claiming they were getting no where with the Israelis, after hundreds of cases filed and not once speaking to the possible victims - this lead to their offices being raided twice and sealed, their devices seized, and being designated, as well as 5 other Palestinian NGOs, as "terrorist orgs." They've been doing work since 2000, what're the implications of donating to a terrorist org? Probably not worth the tax write-off.. I think Israel was/is worried about the Leahy Act, we've applied it to allies before, security/national defense forces in Australia, Bangladesh, Bolivia, Colombia, Guatemala, Mexico, Nigeria, Turkey, Indonesia, Lebanon, and Saint Lucia. The DoD/DOS doesn't disclose the reason or entity, I'm so curious as to why Australia is on that list, and htf Israel isn't.

[@lad7436]

No it's literally because DCIP had PFLP higherups in it's @@con-radical5481

[@nullifiedHorizon]

Was watching both streams at the time and it was great to see such a productive discussion.

[@razorednight]

I really like LonerBox and Vaush. It's good to see them playing nice.

[@Twangaming]

This is why when reviewing the libertarian convo I was so confused what chat was SO uncharitable to Vaush. He’s definitely not as informed as he could be on this but chat was insane that day

[@StonedSpartan]

DGG

[@Jasonsmith-sr1ke]

Dggers and Israelis

[@user-cd4ms6cf8l]

​@@Jasonsmith-sr1ke or people with brains 🧠 not everyone you don't like is dgg 👍💨

[@Jasonsmith-sr1ke]

@@user-cd4ms6cf8l You're from dgg. Point proven.

[@Necroskull388]

@@user-cd4ms6cf8l”people with brains” Ngl this coming from someone using three emojis in one and a half sentences isn’t very convincing.

[@hectorhernandez7389]

Can you beat vaush in a debate about horses tho? They don’t call him vaushorse for nothin

[@marocat4749]

If a horse, is a chair :P

[@YokaiX]

Isn’t it “Vorse”?

[@Humannondancer]

Amazing Vaush empathised immediately when LB gives the Jewish point of view, whereas Piker talks down to, and gives Ethan Klein a hard time for the whole discussion without conceding that exact point.

[@lampad4549]

Seems more tonal shift cause now he is faced with someone that actually knows about the topic but we will see his rethoric after this hasn't changed much.

[@Humannondancer]

@@lampad4549 Are you saying Vaush's rhetoric hasn't changed since the LB conversation? Sorry, I really don't know as I hard pass, on most of V's notifications.

[@ererererd9497]

bc who tf cares abt the jewish point of view? they are not the victims in this situation they are the oppressors (specifically israelis, not jews in general). for that matter what the hell is “the jewish point of view” jewish people aren’t a monolith and there are plenty of jewish people who hate israel for both religious and secular reasons. if u mean the israeli point of view then say that, oh wait if u did then ppl would realize ur just trying to prop up israeli talking points.

[@tomwhitworth1560]

Very constructive and good faith Much love to you both

[@ksw8514]

Wow, that's an insanely click bait title and thumbnail for one of the most calm and amicable conversations I've seen about this conflict in recent weeks.

[@lonerboxlive]

Editor Here: our alternative title idea was "Lonerbox and Vaush SOLVE the Israel-Palestine Conflict; Peace in the Middle East for 10,000 years"

[@ksw8514]

@@lonerboxlive So, why did you decide to withhold that truth from us?

[@mielipuolisiili7240]

​@@lonerboxlive That sounds like a banger

[@helios566]

​@lonerboxlive you've already done your work for the sequel.

[@MilaKatarinaxoxo]

Lonerbox is such a kind person. Understanding and acknowledging both sides is the ONLY way to even hope to fix this issue.

[@chuckecheese5251]

Virtually every person on the Israel side agrees

[@bmxney3143]

@@chuckecheese5251that’s simply not true

[@mushroomjesus2068]

Did you just say acknowledging a geocidal occupation is the only way to fix an issues?

[@tobysmith2081]

​@@chuckecheese5251Israel doesn't even acknowledge Palestine as a country or Palestinians as a real group of people before 1967 let alone acknowledging both sides

[@elias-td4yr]

@@mushroomjesus2068if you think israel will leave gaza in peace because we scream about it on the internet then you are pretty delusional. its just not realistic.

[@TimPortantno]

Went better than I expected, I think it's a good move to put some time between him bringing up something wrong, and then being corrected. Could be interesting to dig more into the Ukraine/Russia comparisons if you do it again, since his position on that is fairly well established.

[@mnmr1996]

Dgg mad in the comments as always that a conversation with vaush turned into a reasonable and productive discussion and not blood sport drama

[@pogo8050]

Who gives a shit what Destiny or his fans think? The only reason they’re at all interested in Israel is cause they know progressives(read: Hasan) don’t like Israel.

[@StuartAtkinson4467]

I know people rubbing their hands for bloodsports forgetting that LonerBox mostly disagrees with Destiny on this and had to hand-hold him through the situation when he had his "I'm pro-genocide" take before it even started. LonerBox is by far the best handler of Destiny so he won't go of the rails even Dylan Burns had trouble the other day managing Destiny's fee fees

[@Nick-zp1cs]

​@StuartAtkinson4467 This is the cult like behavior that needs to be purged from the left forever. If you have an argument to make, just make it. No one needs to be handled, purified or purged from anything. This is not a religion

[@emilchan5379]

Kinda funny really. In the comments of Vaush's video on this, there are tankies mad that Vaush is talking to a rightwinger LonerBox.

[@YokaiX]

@@emilchan5379don’t tankies hate Vaush anyway? Why do they care?

[@santiagobracho5964]

At 1:29:00 Vaush gives probably his most concise and level-headed defence of his overuse of Nazi as an insult. He does make a good point. Godwin's law be damned I suppose.

[@Necroskull388]

Yeah, it's the entire point of the "It could happen here" catchphrase. He's right, his only sin in using it is that it makes him rhetorically appear sensationalist and overly sensitive.

[@ghosthunter0950]

@@Necroskull388When he calls people like Sam Harris a nazi, which mind you was on the front lines of fighting and against supremacists and bigots I think it becomes an issue.

[@ererererd9497]

@@Necroskull388god forbid someone be sensitive to the deaths of thousands ig

[@nunyabiznes7446]

those are some top tier thumbnail faces I must say

[@killercaos123]

The thumbnail and the message in the video does not match at all lol

[@CisternRumblings]

Marketing works.

[@L0neSiPh0n]

Loner knows a lot of Destiny fans watch him. Thumbnail that implies "Vaush bad" = Easy views

[@sathrielsatanson]

Yeah, clickbait from August's school of video titling.

[@smith5796]

Smart

[@iwersonsch5131]

That claim at 1:06:00 is pretty interesting, are there some sources I could read up on?

[@Kataquan]

Can't post links on KZbin but look up the murder of Ali Hassan Harb

[@glumdrop4672]

based on that opening bit I want to hear Loner debate his dad on stream, any chance?

[@NotoriousLightning]

I doubt it, but I have an even better idea! What if we pay one of those old timy actors, like Christopher Lloyd, for instance, to play Lonerbox' dad, and then Lonerbox could debate him? Personally I think that would be pretty rad!

[@ShnoogleMan]

I felt disheartened seeing how unnuanced his takes regarding 1948 and such were. I'm glad he's able to approach this discussion with nuance.

[@HistorySucksV]

From vgg we say hi ❤️

[@PunChris_92]

that was a good talk

[@drgonzo1971]

Every time someone says Israel is the USA's biggest ally, I always think of Canada (and then the UK and Japan)

[@comchia4306]

I've listened to a lot of convos about the Israel-Gaza conflict, and this is easily the best, most nuanced, and most informative one I've heard yet. Please both of y'all, keep it up!

[@seavpal]

Nice to see conciliatorybox in action, a soft touch is best for moving a dail.

[@SCALLYWAG.1]

I thought that was a lot better than it was made out the next days stream. How can you turn a nice convo like that into a fight to nail him on his 'past crimes' anyway. I dont watch vaush so i dont know what hes said in the past but it seems like you pointed out a lot of his mistaken understanding/ problematic rhetoric anyway and it was done niceley which is good to see

[@devilsadvocate8010]

I’ve got like 20 minutes left, it’s an okay convo but I with LonerBox corrected more of Vaushs factual errors like about Britain funding Iserals military through 48 when at that time it was Czech weapons and smuggling

[@marctech1996]

I think this was perfect as a starting point. Vaush said himself that he will defer to Lonerbox’ knowledge on this issue in the future. If this had been more combative there would have been a risk of Vaush just ignoring most criticism but he genuinely seemed happy about the conversation. Hell if this goes well enough in the future we might get trilateral talks between Vaush, Lonerbox and Destiny on this.

[@classiccal5741]

@@marctech1996idk if destiny would make for a good take in this crisis. Blud literally has a genocide preference. He has the knowledge but not the morality

[@mojothecogo5088]

​​@@classiccal5741I double that with destiny even thinking what ever Israel doing right now is the only option and what they should do, and he also said that the ones that responsible for ending the conflict is Palastinians and destiny said verbatim :"if Palastinians want the conflict to end they should stop doing violence"

[@Juel92]

@@classiccal5741 "literally has a genocide preference" what?

[@classiccal5741]

@@Juel92 he literally said and tweeted that in the outcome where either side gets annihilated he would prefer the arabs be genocided over the Israelis. Some real “race tier list” stuff going on there

[@MrIGameHard]

When is next Destiny convo?

[@emilchan5379]

The title is a little clickbaity don't you think? But I guess you gotta bait in the Destiny fans/Vaush haters. Great conversation overall. On a side note, I am very amused by the difference between this video's comment section and that of Vaush's.

[@alrecks619]

Speaking of which cant wait for ya guys talk again in regards to Houthi.

[@garmatey3816]

The thumbnail lolllllllll I’ll let this play on my premium account muted on another tab just for the effort

[@Kim-J312]

Oct 7th was Pulter's birthday, it was a gift from hamas

[@biochemistryproject]

Guys, honest question. Lonerbox frequently says that a majority of Palestinians are/were in favor of a two state solution. Where is he getting that from?

[@satiricgames2129]

Polls done in gaza

[@biochemistryproject]

@@satiricgames2129 mind pointing me to any? I’ve only seen polls that indicate the contrary

[@markallen6433]

@@biochemistryproject they do, because they think having a sovereign state is a better platform from which to wage war on Israel. So the peaceful and the jihadis both say yes. It's a meaningless question.

[@tobysmith2081]

During the Obama years, polling showed that the majority of Palestinians were down for a two state solution. Google The Times of Israel Both Palestinians and Israelis want a 2 state solution. There's also the fact Hamas ran on a 2 state solution with the 67 borders in 2008. They did change their their mind once they got elected, like most politicians. But the fact they won while running for a 2 state solution shows Palestinians did want a 2 state solution during the Obama years

[@tobysmith2081]

​@@markallen6433they don't always say yes, if that was true the majority opinion wouldn't currently be no right now. Seems like you just won't believe them no matter what

[@danielsurvivor1372]

1:47 Yep, that's exactly it, it's not a "Milei bad" moment it's "Argentinian presidents have to appear strong to the public even tho public should know better that Falkan islands are just gonna stay under someone else's control"

[@ryanjohnson9526]

wow really poor performance by vaush in this debate, didn't even use any gamer words. how disappointing.

[@jloiben12]

Lebanon is also home to one of the coolest cities ever: Tyre

[@jamesmcpherson8599]

Good convo but your chat is insane

[@jloiben12]

1:23:00 This is a great example of how we get it from both ends. We are an out group so we have to deal with the consequences of being one. Yet we are so similar to the in group the other out groups treat us as an inferior out group

[@Zyntastic34]

and they say voosh never has his views changed.

[@themightymcb7310]

Gotta say, I can't disagree more that this "isn't a genocide". More Palestinians are dead than were killed in the Nakba. The ones still alive will not be allowed to return.

[@DeeDeeCHAUNCEY]

Exactly

[@Abu_Shimshi]

thnak you for your opnion! its still not a genocide.

[@gavriloglogovac610]

@@Abu_Shimshiis it ethnic cleansing coupled with massacres and crimes against humanity?

[@NotoriousLightning]

Get those rascals to calm the heck down and come back to Oslo for a nice chat.

[@davidorioli3870]

Hey, Stardust, we know you're Loners new editor Red Face Droopy Eyes

[@RedOlympus]

It might be more precise to refer to kibbutzim and settlements as 'communes.'

[@jord.an6123]

Theres a big difference between kibbutz and settlements. In no way are settlements 'communes'. Settlements are often, like lonerbox explains, one radicalised right winger and his gun and/or trailer/RV, intentionally 'settling' in Palestinian territory (illegally even under Israeli law) with the specific goal to cause trouble and displace palestinians Thats very different to a nominally progressive kibbutz farming within israel. Sure you could call those communes - but that really has very little to do with the israel+palestine discussion. Unrelated, y'know? Hope that sort of clarifies the distinction :)

[@RedOlympus]

@@jord.an6123 The terms "Moshav," "Kibbutz," and the settlements in the West Bank each refer to different types of communities in Israel, with distinct characteristics and origins. Moshav: A moshav is a type of cooperative agricultural community of individual farms, typical in Israel. Established as part of a Zionist plan to create a Jewish agricultural presence, each family in a moshav owns their own house and works their own land, while purchasing and marketing are done cooperatively. This system combines elements of both individual and communal farming. The moshavim movement emerged in the 1920s. Kibbutz: A kibbutz is a collective community in Israel that was traditionally based on agriculture. The first kibbutzim were founded around 1910. In a kibbutz, members (or kibbutzniks) live communally and share responsibilities and resources, including income. The kibbutz system is more collective than a moshav, as almost all property and resources are communally owned and work is assigned by the community. Settlements in the West Bank: The Israeli settlements in the West Bank are communities established by Israel on territories it occupied in the 1967 Six-Day War. In Hebrew, these are often referred to as "התנחלויות" (Hitnachaluyot), which translates to "settlements." These settlements vary in their structure and economy - some are urban and others are agricultural, and they can range from small villages to large towns.

[@RedOlympus]

@@jord.an6123 I was referring to the initial settlements/kibbutzim from the 1900’s in my initial comment. Here ‘communes’ is appropriate

[@marocat4749]

Kabutz are usually progressive and even pretty communist rests and are not settlements. If it were only kabutz, it wouldnt escalate. Kabutz are usually fairly progressive.

[@RedOlympus]

@@marocat4749 what I mean is the original kibbutzim like Deganya Aleph in 1910 are often called “settlements” in online discourse when a better translation would be “communes”

[@gracehetfield5331]

Absolutely disagree that this isn't ethnic cleansing. What do Gazans have to go back to? Does anyone think Israel is going to help rebuild Gazan for the Palestinian population?

[@andrewhaxton1076]

I said this on the original VOD, but i enjoyed this conversation. Vaush has a good moral compass and can be quiet bright, but has a tendency to be intellectually lazy and sensationalist, and this forces him to be grounded and nuanced

[@jameswells9403]

Yeah, he debates trogs and gets a little lazy...

[@tequilasunset8628]

goooon

[@LauraTeAhoWhite]

I like watching smart people talk to each other

[@DrippyWaffler]

Kia ora Laura!

[@LauraTeAhoWhite]

@@DrippyWaffler Kia Ora to you too Drippy!

[@lighting7508]

Vaush isn’t smart

[@3lancerofficialmaybe871]

No one is smart, especially me

[@NotoriousLightning]

Then this must've been two painful hours for yous.

[@Safsal]

Regarding your point about NCV, you have to remember, USA and EU civilians were never killed or at risk from ISIS, if ISIS was on the border of USA, NVC would be way higher tolerance for civilian casualties

[@bigsmoke4592]

bro tell your editor to stop being a toxic child that clickbaits like this. trashiness for clicks is a double edged sword

[@desmondbush8804]

Reeeeeeeeeeeeee

[@SoSickSry]

Wow what a rousing catchy sensational titel

[@SeruraRenge11]

1:10:00 it should also be noted that, according to SerpentZA from The China Show who is South African, even before the referendum happened there were a bunch of places in South Africa that were quietly phasing out Apartheid because to be blunt, that was something the Dutch Afrikaaners wanted and the British South Africans didn't. I don't like to paint with a broad brush but the Afrikaaners were and still are to this day pretty damn racist and almost every unequal policy in SA back then came from them. ALSO, it almost sounded like one of you said Mandela went back on his promises of the Rainbow Nation later. No, Mandela never did that, South Africa never descended into the ethnic violence it is today (murder capital of the world, woo....) in his lifetime. The blame for that can PURELY be placed on Jacob Zuma's shoulders as that pos is insanely corrupt and he let everything Mandela and Tutu fought for be destroyed in the name of his own greed and desire for power. Zuma IS South Africa's Mugabe, make no mistake about that.

[@Frivolitility]

Did I hear Lonerbox say Vaush debated Richard Hanania? Are there clips of that? I'm not finding it.

[@helios566]

"How bad are things for Russia right now?" He said yesterday which might have ment on Twitter.

[@Frivolitility]

@@helios566 Ah, okay. Sadly I am banned on Twitter for posting the Follow Your Leader meme in reply to one too many Nazi accounts.

[@helios566]

@@Frivolitility same, any sane person can only argue so long with conservatives without calling them slurs.

[@hxlize4913]

havent heard a vaush debate in years. good to know hes still on the correct side of the left

[@fdpls1987]

Where is the challenge? Also please do lobby hard for someone to pick up the refugees that's free ads for the right.

[@caad5258]

Nice

[@Molly-jh4kz]

The thumbnail. 😂

[@stephendavis5530]

Oh right! Regarding Syria; where the Golan Heights are illegally occupied by Israel? Was that something that slipped your memory? I think it's worth you exploring the difference between territory and illegal occupation.

[@thecaffeinjerk]

As an h3 fan I'm sad Ethan couldn't get the good faith this gets. Thanks Hasan.

[@weloc]

Do you know what good faith means

[@deevasquez1171]

Same

[@thecaffeinjerk]

@@weloc yes.

[@Owesomasaurus]

Hasan was fine. It was the vocal minority of Hasan's chat that couldn't give a Lib space to evolve and grow.

[@BionikleFG]

@@Owesomasauruswhich Hasan refused to regulate.

[@unclebobboomergames]

Vaush def needs to surround himself with more grounded people

[@marctech1996]

I think Vaush honestly doesn’t have that many people around himself in general. He is way too “moderate” for Tankies or guys like Hasan. He and Destiny have mostly burned bridges between each other and smaller creators usually take more extremist positions on either side. Vaush was correct when he once said that he would be far more effective as a political figure if he had better social skills. This felt like the first time in a long while that he felt genuinely happy to have a somewhat challenging conversation.

[@unclebobboomergames]

@@marctech1996 yeah well hes gotta figure it out. Cuz the thing after this last conference where they interacted destiny made peace with fkn keffals. And that quick fallout does seem to be one that vaush lit. Not destiny. Now regardless of whos side youd take in the destiny/keffals bit that is still a big bridge. And clearly they arent chum ole pals or anything. Just enough to bury the hatchet. Vaush gotta figure it out

[@asherroodcreel640]

​@@marctech1996it's not really an issue of being a moderate or what ever, neo natzis and tanikes are both fascists and like how Hitler and Stalin would have totally and almost did touch dicks, the real reason he's disliked by the grater left is that he's a big loud man and he voted for bidan

[@asherroodcreel640]

​@@unclebobboomergamesdestiny a big Virgin, he really is a hollow skin full of worms and spite

[@tomwhitworth1560]

​​@@marctech1996the problem with Vaush and destiny is that they genuinely hate each other. If they could get over their egos, they could actually do some really good advocacy.

[@whosgotthetime]

I’m sorry, wtf is going on here? Why is Loner not pushing back on any of vaush’s ridiculous claims?

[@dshappir]

Did I misunderstand or is Vaush essentially saying that ethnically cleansing Israel would be the "just solution" if the Palestinians could somehow do it? I hope I'm wrong.

[@KufLMAO]

wow how the fuck did you get that from this

[@Ayzahar]

I am going to push back on the idea of Left wing anti-Semitism aren't really anti-Semitic. First, anti-Semitism has continually evolved based on the region, and the societal norms of the society - broadly speaking it evolved from more imperial-civic reasons during Classic era, religiously inspired during the late medieval ages, both in Islam and Christianity, and with the age of Enlightenment it morphed into racial - which culminated with the Nazis. In this sense, I would agree that the left isn't anti-Semitic. HOWEVER, there is a clear evolution of modern anti-Semitism that IS rooted largely among the left: specifically with the left's obsession with *authenticity*. What I mean is the language used by the left denies the Jews - especially Ashkenazi Jews - authenticity. Which is why they refer to them as "Europeans", "Polish", "Germans", they aren't real Jews and therefore they are European colonialists. This also manifests among the right: Israeli Jews aren't real Jews, becuse they are Ashkenazi and t he Ashkenazi are not real Jews because they are Khazar converts. This also now manifests in Black Israelites, who claim to be the REAL Jews. And also among the Christian Nationalists by claiming that Jews of Jesus era are completely different than modern Jews because modern Jews also adhere to the Talmud, whereas those Jews did not. This conveniently falls in line with, largely, leftist post-colonial and indigineity discourse. But look at how the far-left specifically uses the language of inauthenticity towards Israel that they rarely if ever use for any other country. They deny Israel's legitimacy as a state (something they don't ever do it seems to any other state), they deny Israel should even exist (which they never apply to countries that have far worse human rights and such), they refer to Israel as a colonial settler state because the Jews that live there are actually not real Jews. They praise the extremely anti-Zionist orthodox as something to be paraded - because they are seemingly authentic. And the disgusting part is that this game of authenticity denies the existence of Mizrahi, the Sephardim, the Beta Israel. Yes, there is anti-Semitism on the left. It's just a new branch of anti-Semitism that is based on authenticity. For them it's not about race, or religion. It's about whether or not they are even "real Jews". And this stems from the opressor/opressed dynamic, throught history Jews have always been opressed in the diaspora, and thus they are authentic. But by the late 20th century the Jews were no longer opressed - they became the "opressor" thus they are no longer authentic.

[@reidfann]

In the post war period Jean-Paul Sartre wrote a number of documents about antisemitism. In there he describes a number of archtypes; There is Jews as the Christkiller(religious persecution), Jews as the newer concept of a degenerate race, and Jews as the embodiment of capitalism. It is in this last character that the anti-semitism of Karl Marx appears, for example.

[@tiggerbane4325]

As an Australian I’ve heard the not a legitimate country being used at both my country and the USA so I wouldn’t say it’s not used against any other country. However I do agree it appears to be used in a racist way even in those cases but in them it’s against white “colonialists”.

[@angelikaskoroszyn8495]

I would argue that white Jewish people are called Europeans because they are Europeans. One doesn't exclude another. Privilage is not a black and white issue. Especially when you consider the long and complicated history of Jewish people Pre WWII you could find in Europe Jewish people who were so deeply inbeded in local cultures you wouldn't be able to recognize them as "outsiders". It was actually an issue for the nzis because it turns out it was pretty difficult to prove you're a "pure" German without yet non existing DNA tests In Poland we have shittone of dishes which are traditionally Jewish and I wouldn't be surprised if I found Polish dishes made by Jewish people Zionism among non-Jews is a mixture of antisemitism and the recognition of Jewish sort-of-almost whiteness. Christians didn't want to be around Jewish people so they founded Israel. Evangelicals want to introduce armagedon through Jewish state so that's nice. At the same one of the pro Israel argument is that it's the only progressive, democratic state so we need to support them. This is the sort of whiteness I'm talking about. They're the same as us so we have to protect them. Nevermind the harm they cause to the brown people Ah yes. My favourite pro Israel argument is "Israel has the right to protect itself" (by protect they mean killing civilians). Hamas doesn't have the same right. I wonder why. What differs Israelians and Palestinians?

[@Ayzahar]

@@angelikaskoroszyn8495 It was largely in the 19th century that Jews in Europe even experienced emancipation. They did not view themselves as Europeans just as much as Europeans didn't view them as Europeans. WW2 solidified this division when there was a growing number of Jews actually assimilating into European culture. Christians weren't the ones who "founded Israel". I don't know why you'd suggest that. Hamas has the same right as Israel to protect itself. But the agressor was Hamas, and Hamas largely targets civilians. Israel targets Hamas, with civilians being a collateral damage. Which, incidentally, happens in every war. And if you're going to make a comparison, according to the UN in modern wars, 9 civilians are killed for every 1 militant.

[@Ngooo]

Tell’em VOWSH

[@SirGrimLockSmithVIII]

Kinda feels like you should tone down the click-baityness of the title.

[@helios566]

Gotta get the clicks baby 🎉

[@justinmccoy]

History Legends is a Russia Simp. I’m glad you handled him with professionalism, like you always do. Also,

[@soggymarshmallow]

45:42 - can anyone explain this better for me? Does Israel refuse Palestinian right of return because the "demographics don't work"? Don't work for what, exactly? A peace settlement? A Jewish ethnostate?

[@John-bravooo]

Right of return isnt real. Nobody is entitled to relocate to the exact point in space a common ancestor lived in. Do you see Jews demanding this? No. How about the native americans? Would obama allow natives to relocate to martha's vinyard and settle in his mansions as they have ancestors who were forcibly evicted? Nope. So tell us why the arabs of palestine are a special case.

[@dshappir]

I don't understand the reference to "Jewish ethnostate". The Jews have a the same right to self determination as other peoples, say the Palestinians. If several million Arabs, who are antagonistic to the existence of Israel and the presence of Jews there, move into Israel and become Israeli citizens then Israel would cease to exist. And that's why it will never happen, because you can pressure states into making concessions, but you can't pressure them into obviously committing suicide.

[@soggymarshmallow]

@@dshappir "Jewish ethnostate" refers to the idea that Israel must be Jewish, an ethnicity, by which I assume means a majority population, but I could be wrong, hence my request for explanation. The bit I struggle to understand is: why would Israel cease to exist if the Arabs returned as Israeli citizens? What is the mechanism that would undo Israel? Is there a special sort of status of the current Arab citizens of Israel that avoids this? Are they also seen as antagonistic to the existence of Israel?

[@RetractedandRedacted]

The main factors are that that a right to return isn't legally applicable in this case because it refers to a return to your country of origin. The issue being that those who fled in 47 would not be returning back to their country origin since there wasn't a country they fled from at the time and the area they fled from is now Israel. Another factor is that UNRWA has expanded the right of return to make it generational and irrelevant of resettlement or citizenship which is the case in exactly zero other conflicts. That means that theoretically 100 years from now where maybe 7 generations of descendants of Palestinians who fled during '47 would have a right to land or compensation in Israel even if each of those 7 generations were born, raised and never left the US. At the moment, there are around 50,000 of the 750,000 Palestinians alive who actually fled during the Nakba but UNRWA's definition means that 12,300,000 have a right to land in israel. That leads into the third point, Israel was founded as a Jewish state along lines where Arabs weren't the majority land owners to help ensure the borders of Israel constituted a Jewish majority. The current population is 9,558,000 including around 2,000,000 Arabs. To allow 12,000,000 'refugees' to 'return' to Israel, the majority of whom have never lived there at any point in their lives would completely void the reason why and how Israel was founded and, at best, result in another bloody civil war and ethnic cleansing of Jews with an openly genocidal Palestinian supermajority. Obviously there is some resistance to that outcome.

[@Nergal667]

6:22 Vaush: "I love the capital of Lebanon. Bereyht. I've recently learned alot about Bereyht!"

[@kilyos9212]

That part was weird, he said it twice like he was reading it for the first time and then a few seconds later pronounced it as if he said it his whole life. I guess he was reconciling two different parts of his brain in real time

[@Nergal667]

​@@kilyos9212Vaush can sometimes be very arrogant. He probably had a Wikipedia window open. Loner basically sat Vaush down and got him to drop his pretentiousness because Loner knows more than Vaush on the subject (And he knows that)

[@HenrythePaleoGuy]

@@Nergal667 He never came off as arrogant at all once, lol. I think you guys just interpret confidence in speaking as arrogance, but okay.

[@RiceShouldBeFluffy]

This is such a bizarre nitpick

[@mattalford3932]

Do people just not know US military doctrine? We can fight 2 full wars on separate parts of the globe at the same time. And sustain that fight for years.

[@SDM-Zone]

Taiwan's main party has been their version of the green party for like 7 years, nearly a decade of green rule. Why do leftists pretend if I would just look over there and see Donald Trump, when I am seeing Elizabeth Warren? How is Taiwan right wing? The nationalist groups were left wing of monarchists before, of course they did some white terror much like the red terror, but they turned into a real democracy without an external invasion so I can't hate them that much. I think modern day Taiwanese greens are more left wing than modern day CCP members, because the green party can recognise past genocides then apologise and try to build a new national identity inclusive of the natives of Taiwan.

[@hjhsdujh]

Kudos to waush to own his mistakes

[@Ookalaable]

hmm i thought this initially but he doesn't actually acknowledge he was wrong much. He should have shown much more humility at 59mins regarding the hamas funding tripe he's been pushing.

[@PosthumousAddress]

"Bareit?" How does Vaush not know Beirut? And he considers himself well read and informed?

[@marocat4749]

international polöitics is his weakspots, he isnt bad per se, just less accurate on it. Why its good he does talk to loner.

[@bryanovercast349]

Damn @lonerbox, leave my Wyhoming out of it, nothing to see here 😅😭

[@SCALLYWAG.1]

The fat vaush sounded a bit iffy but i understand what it referred to and taken in a 'we miss the fat you' joking way it isnt bad 😂

[@COOLAUSTINO]

sounds like two eighth graders arguing over Goku vs Superman or something

[@gregoryreynolds3612]

Holy sht, a conversation about Gaza and no "America bad though." Surprised and pleased. Thank you for staying on point.

[@biochemistryproject]

46:02 wrong. They could also be ethnically cleansed.

[@marocat4749]

Yeah, but i think no one wants that, probably not even all but the most extreme israely

[@MoonshineH]

Literally Vaush

[@sjewitt22]

who wrights the tites for these videos?

[@ericpalmer3588]

Hamas should probably not attack Israel again.

[@dudeekill4win]

Honestly ive watched loner since he first came on destiny's stream. Him and destiny seem to be really good counterweights to each other and that leans into a great convo because sometimes when destiny gets pressed too much then he goes nuclear and loner will press and actually provide good info and balanced opinion, so it doesn't get to that point. I haven't liked a lot of Vaush's takes and it feels like he can be like hasan and just lack any or some knowledge and just make an outright claim that's false. IE with Britain vs its being the Czech supplying the weapons. However, in this convo, he seems to be SUPER good faith and willing to listen. Definitely improved my opinion on him.

[@bwuhmoment3588]

Oh no why are lefty mommy and daddy fighting

[@areichental]

I usually can't stand listening to vaush but this was super pleasant. Gj loner, dope talk

[@hichaelhighers]

He's pretty often like this tbh

[@Necroskull388]

Vaush matches tone. He just often engages with absolute dumbfucks on the grounds that making content where he’s just agreeing with people is boring.

[@DamienPalmer]

This INTENSE debate CHALLENGED my stance on HAMAS!!!

[@AnythingMachine]

Do we think lonerbox could start doing some shuttle diplomacy between destiny and vaush?

[@Jasonsmith-sr1ke]

Why would vaush want diplomacy with someone who supports “ethical” child porn and incest? FOH

[@Necroskull388]

No, that bridge is most definitely staying burnt. I don’t know about Destiny but Vaush has absolutely zero interest in engaging - no matter what Destiny is doing, Vaush specifically makes a point to never comment on it or give him any attention.

[@marocat4749]

God no, i hope they get along but there is way too much miscommunication and history to handle.

[@RRRRR15]

algeria isn't black voosh

[@pablolongobardi7240]

I believe that the comparison between nazi germany and Israel is pretty solid in many key points 1) Israel is an ethnostate 2) Lebensraum: Israel claims the west bank and. Continues to slowly but methodically do an ethnic cleansing 3) Heavy indoctrination permeated to all levels of society depicting Palestinians as human animals (Untermenschen) 4) clear genocidal intent One can make the argument that not all Israelis are into this, the same way that not all germans were nazis The fact that Israel is not doing the genocide and ethnic cleansing as effectively as theu would want is more of a situational thing than an ideological one

[@JassZoigel]

1) a•not like germany b•most countries are ethnostates if israel is 2) there is no other claim 3) literally every quote i have seen of this is talking about the militants (minus ben shapiro) 4) what is your evidence, the icj needs it very badly, as do we all if we want it to stop

[@ianirwin9480]

Great convo, i always love watching Vontch being EPICALLY OWNED with FACTS and LOGIC

[@classiccal5741]

The problem here is you see this as Loner trying to epically own vaush, reducing discussions about the Middle East simply to just debate circlejerk bloodsports, where it’s more important than that and lonerbox sees this and engages in good faith.

[@ianirwin9480]

@@classiccal5741 the joke ---------------> Your head

[@tomwhitworth1560]

​@@classiccal5741why so upset ?

[@classiccal5741]

@@ianirwin9480 oops my apologies. Other people were unironically being serious but the caps lock was the give away hey 😅 can I blame autism for not getting that one?

[@Creslin321]

This was a good convo. I think that my main issue with Vaush's approach to this issue is that he tends to look at this purely in terms of Israel oppressing Palestine, with the liberation of Palestine being the goal...without really understanding what that means to most Palestinians. I've really tried to look into what the majority of Palestinians understand the liberation of Palestine to mean. And from what I've learned, most of them view it as "A free Palestine from the River to the Sea." In other words, the elimination of the state of Israel and the establishment of a Palestinian state that encompasses all of historic Palestine. The problem here is that Israel is a nuclear power with over nine million people living in it. That just isn't going to happen...and even if it did happen, I doubt it would be good for the people living in Israel today. This, in my mind, has always been the biggest obstacle to peace. It's the fact that so many Palestinians have not given up on the idea of expelling the colonizing Israelis from all of historical Palestine. And look, I think in the 1940's, they may have had a good point here. But at this point, Israel has existed as a nation for nearly 80 years, and Israel has a pretty large population. Expelling them at this point would be monstrous and no one should support it. IMO the only realistic solution that doesn't involve a genocide is some form of multi-state solution. Maybe in a few decades when things have calmed down and the majority of Israelis and Palestinians no longer want to eliminate the other, a single state may be more feasible...but for now, I just don't see it happening.

[@JusticeIsALie]

Wait wait. You just conflated two things: elimination of the state of Israel and kicking out former Israelis. Elimination of the state, yes. Kicking out former Israelis, no. It seems all you have left then is a democratic referendum for a new state and new constitution. Voters encompass residents or citizens of OPT and Israel. I wonder if you’re just saying “doesn’t matter they have nukes, so give up and accept multiple states with security and effective economic control by Israel.

[@marocat4749]

Most probably just want to live and not give the liudest voices that autiomatic, like its there, but i still would treat most would be fine being treated humane and some respect , and not be randomly bombed. Through yeah i agree if israel wants to really do that, treat fatah or plo as partner to not give hamas that position. Because hamas has to get out of power, bu thats a way more permanent effective way, not mass slaughter. Winning people over or gain trust at least is nessesary to take power from extremists. I sztill think moszt are just traumatized and if they wer egiven actual proof they dont have to bew an alert all the time, for real, and have proof, would happy take it.

[@yeriscarat9241]

@@marocat4749yes most people are good but many are radicalized there would be constant terrorism

[@RiceShouldBeFluffy]

​@@yeriscarat9241 Exactly. Simply creating these changes alone will not make that go away.

[@BLooDCoMPleX]

You two should start Leftovers 2.

[@marocat4749]

With dustin too :P and keffals, i dont think even rootsie can manage that drama XD

[@ethanstroup7394]

Purple Destiny clone lol

[@andrewduff2048]

LonerBox is one of the few people that I've agreed with on this. I think he was spot on when talking about Israel's indifference to killing civilian and about how some genocidal rhetoric from people in the government don't automatically mean Israel is committing genocide.