Looking for heat leaks - TOPDON TC001 thermal camera demo

I got sent a thermal camera from TOPDON called the TC001. I've been meaning to get something like this for a while so I was happy to give it a try, looking for places in our house where heat is leaking out faster than it should. I found quite a few interesting things and I'd like to share them with you in this video.
Links where you can buy the TC001 and TC002:
Android (TC001):
www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0BFCVZC6...
iOS (TC002):
www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0C1H1FD6...
Our system summary:
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5 kW Gen 2 GivEnergy hybrid inverter
14.7 kWh GivEnergy batteries
A2A heat pump heating/cooling system
Myenergi eddi hot water diverter
Fiat 500e EV
00:00 Introduction
00:30 Unboxing
05:05 House tour
21:10 Closing thoughts
Please note that Tim is not a professional consultant, just an enthusiastic amateur, so cannot reply to requests for advice or opinions on specific systems or green investment opportunities. Thank you for your understanding.
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share.octopus.energy/cute-qua...
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[@NorrisNicholson]

Tim lad, another good little video. To assist you: 1) The cold skirting is very probably due to the lack of insulation inside the house at the joist level, also timber joist shrinkage where the joists go into the walls are a point cooler air from the cavity can enter so you can see this at top of outside walls. 2) The top corner of outside walls 1st floor is typical of no or reduced level of insulation at the eves. Its an area that has the shortest distance inside to outside (roof) and difficult to insulate particularly after a house is built because its difficult to reach from the loft. 3) Your call on the air vents is correct, the spring loaded / gravity back draft shutters can work well but flap about when its windy. You can buy a bathroom extractor from Senate which incorporates a powered inner shutter closer and that may be worth a look. 4) Your front door side section is prob a section of solid brick / block or an infill stud / gap with little or no insulation.

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

Thank you. As an experiment I have found a cowled version of the gravity shutter vents so I'm going to get one as a trial to see how it performs in the first instance. If that works ok that's the easiest solution to the wind blowing in, but if it starts to rattle I'll investigate the other option you mentioned. I'll investigate the other issues in due course too and will report back with any fixes I manage to implement successfully.

[@andytaylor6893]

I have the cowled version and they rattle a lot. Suggest you go straight for an extractor with flaps that close/open automatically.

[@chriss4949]

Tim…reference my comment 2 weeks ago ( I NEED one)……well Ive bought one…luv it. Already shown up a few hidden concerns…Thanks for the video again 👍

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

Oh, nice, that's great! Glad you're having fun with it. I've had great success sorting out all the cold spots in my ceiling. Hoping to do a follow-up video at some point soon.

[@SmithyScotland]

I found big gaps behind the skirting. Basically the plasterboard is 2.4m in length, my ceilings are probably 2.45m high. Took the skirting off carefully, filled the gap with expanding foam, put them back.

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

Yes, I think there must be a gap there. Some folks are saying that's deliberate to avoid damp climbing up the walls. In any case I'm sure it can be improved to prevent heat leaks.

[@HaxbyShed]

Well Tim, extremely interesting. I'm tempted. Cheers

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

I could walk around with this all day pointing it at things!

[@chriss4949]

Very interesting and informative video.👍(I NEED one of these)

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

They're too much fun, really. I'm wandering around pointing it at everything!

[@stevejudyrobinson1771]

Great walk through Tim, I especially like the superimpose feature. I have been thinking of buying one and your video has decided it so thanks. As a thought about the cold spots at the ceiling edges. Some Coving may solve it. I have coving in one bedroom and not in the other which is identical. So will report back when I have had a go with mine when it arrives. This looks like a real boys toy. 😂 It even got SWMBO’s approval.

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

Oh, it's a lot of fun, for sure. Interesting thought about the coving, I'll give that some consideration.

[@Sean_S1000]

Skirting is usually used to hide gaps where the plasterboard has not meet the finish to floor level, so you may find there is no plasterboard behind parts of your skirting board. also corners can gather pressure making pressure pockets which can slow the rate of air transfer in that area. ( not sure how that will effect heat transfer but it effects smoke)

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

Yes, I expect there is a gap behind there.

[@annesmith1919]

I hired an IR camera from a local firm for a week and it was very illuminating and absolutely addictive. My house (built in the early 1970s) shows similar features to yours, including the cold edges to the upstairs ceilings where they meet the outside walls. I don't think this is an insulation issue, I think it is due to ventilation from the cavity walls and I'm not sure anything can really be done about it. The cold showing on the window frames is probably due to a difference in emissivity between different materials. I bought myself an IR thermometer (looks a bit like a speed gun) after I had to give the camera back and the manual helpfully explains about emissivity. Materials like concrete, stone, brick etc have high emissivity (around 0.95), whereas many metals are much lower, particularly aluminium which is only 0.3. My thermometer has a button to adjust emissivity to compensate for this - your camera may have something similar. My kitchen and cloakroom, both of which have extractor fans, face south west and regularly produce a significant cold draught/wind. The little flaps on the outside simply break off in a gale. I have given up with attempting to stop the draught from outside and simply secure a double thickness of bubble wrap over the fans with an elastic band when they are not in use. I have nearly new (

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

I checked the window frames by putting some tape on part of one of them and it showed the same temperature as the frame itself, so I'm pretty sure the readings are correct. The frames are painted so it's not the bare metal showing, which means the emissivity should be similar to other non-metallic surfaces. The handles of the windows are another matter entirely as they are bare metal, and you can really see the much higher reflectivity with them reflecting the temperature of things around them, rather than showing their own true temperature. Fascinating stuff, and very addictive, as you say!

[@ianbeck5897]

We have a thermal camera and have found it to be very useful in our old house. Today, for example, we found that downstairs was rather colder than it should be. A little bit of imagining with the camera exposed some air locks in our antiquated under floor hydronic heating system. Ten minutes of flushing and all back to normal, floors heating up and pipe runs of hot water visible through the flooring and carpets, and the down stairs relatively toasty again. It's really important to not get too carried away with these cameras. Taken too far and we can stuff up every blue image that the camera shows and we end up in an hermetically sealed box. This may be good for the cost of heating but it is not healthy both for air and humidity. This is why trickle vents were invented! Thermal cameras are expensive but they really are useful bits of kit. Personally, I would say that they are great to have and use as and when there are issues (like my example above). Hiring or borrowing one for a few days and stuffing up every hole will affect a step change in heating costs, which is good. In so many ways, having one and incrementally reducing cold spots over a longer period of time, may be a more scientific and, ultimately, a better approach.

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

They're definitely useful. Time-sharing with friends and neighbours seems like a good way to go about it. Spread the cost while being able to re-evaluate periodically.

[@johnh9449]

Have you done the trick of the warm hand print yet? 👋 Watching swirling water coming to the boil in a pan on your induction hob is mesmerising too 👀! They are very useful for finding gaps in your insulation as you've found out and seeing if your radiators are working properly, measuring delta T on your flow and return on an air to water heat pump. Loads of uses. You can also get a macro lens for them for close up views of PCB components getting hot etc.

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

Oh I have done both those things and more 😉. I'm pointing it at literally everything right now. I'm sure the novelty will wear off eventually but for now I'm having fun.

[@CraigJTStewart]

I purchased one of those last winter, really insightful as to where and what is leaking heat. Our windows are UPVC, a lot less loss than yours, but still noticeable. This reminds me that I must insulate our loft hatch! I also have similar problems with extractor fans so will be interested to hear what you find to address that. IIRC my parents used to have an electrically controlled valve mechanism on the bathroom extractor, but the issue in the kitchen is that the extarctor fan is above the cooker, and it relies on passive louvres outside, which are not great.

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

My first attempt will be to add those passive louvres, as currently it's just a sort of grille over the outside, so wind can easily blow in. We shall see if that helps at all, as it's simple and cheap. If that's no good I shall delve a little deeper into other options!

[@markjones632]

got one off ebay, ill use it and move it on for more I reckon, thanks for the review

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

No problem. And good plan!

[@hakemchatbot5401]

Thank you

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

No problem.

[@wajopek2679]

Sorry to say but those doors and windows are shocking. I would get your builders in and get them to discuss if this installation conforms to the insulation regulations they were suppose to. Don't forget that water/moisture also shows up as dark blue. 1) Try sticking a strip of clear car UV/IR window film to the inside of the metal frame to reflect IR energy back into the house. If it works, you can stick some externally in summer. Moreover, you could actually work out the heat loss / gain of all that metal surface area and its impact on your property. 2) I would explore further to see if your builder foam sealed around the frame or if they left an open gap between the frame/brickwork and just covered it up with some trim. Your front door looks to have upvc strip there so peeling that back and looking might reveal something. More professional installations actually use a continuous 40 or 50mm strip of expanding tape that continuously contracts and expands around frames which really seals the frame to the brickwork eg. XPANDA Tape . 3) If all else fails, get a joiner in to make you a nice wooden trim that would get fixed up against the surrounds wherever possible and screwed to the wall to cover up the surface area and act as an insulator. Make a feature of it.

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

Oh for sure, they're dreadful. I can only think that the developers thought going for these "premium" metal frames would be a good idea. To be fair they do look really nice but I'd have preferred more thermally performant ones. I will be checking the seals, if I can.

[@sjdiy8230]

For your external vent covers consider changing to Wind Sound Baffle Vent Cover Draft Excluding type, Blauberg make one that is neat and flush to the wall. Another type is No Resist' Back Draught Grille. Alternatively, leave existing external vents in place and put a cowl over them. You could look at changing the bathroom extractors (assuming all are direct through external wall and not via the loft) to single room heat recovery (SVHR) units, but SVHR units are expensive.

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

As it happens I found a vent cover of the one-way cowl variety that has the same wall fixings as the existing ones, so I could just swap the covers over without much trouble. That does indeed seem to have helped.

[@UpsideDownFork]

Great assessment that just wouldn't be possible without this tool! Aluminium window frames will almost always have a big disadvantage compared to UPVC unfortunately. I was looking closely to see if the heat loss was through the joint between frame and wall but it does look clear that it's the frame itself rather than the joint which will probably be filled with expanding foam, an excellent insulator. At least it looks like for the most part that your windows are consistent which means they're fitted well.

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

Yeah, the frames are modern and have a thermal break in them but even so they're clearly leaking more heat than a UPVC frame would. Not really sure there's much I can do about that, annoyingly! I'm still looking for a good solution so hopefully something will crop up at some point.

[@UpsideDownFork]

@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk although I'm sure you're frustrated, try not to let it worry you too much. Although the contrast may seem stark, I'd hazard a guess that the actual heat loss itself is relatively minor overall. Try to keep your focus on the bits that you can improve with minimal time, cost and disruption. The loft insulation is a straightforward job and will yield a quick win. One way valve on the extractors like wise. The joint between the door frame and the wall is probably a case of removing the finishing trim and injecting some low expansion foam into the cavity there. All insulation is important but sometimes we get obsessed with things that only offer us diminishing returns anyway. Good luck and I hope to see more about this on your channel in the future 👍

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

@@UpsideDownFork oh, you can be sure I've already dealt with the insulation and vents 😉

[@nickgilbert1264]

​@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk The thermal break isn't very effective I've found. If you check with the camera closely (by opening the window and quickly looking at the heat break) you'll probably see it's not really doing an awful lot. Plastic conducts heat relatively well compared to proper insulating materials like polystyene and a think 5-8mm bead of plastic doesn't do a lot to stop the heat crossing over (although it's better than nothing at all)

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

@@nickgilbert1264 I think you've hit the nail on the head. I'm very unimpressed with these windows. Sadly replacing them is out of the question right now.

[@robinbennett5994]

What's annoying is that frames like that are an expensive 'premium' product because they're slimmer than wood or PVC! You can get thin sheets of PVC covered foam, it's used for signs. It looks like a fiddly job, but I found that even a 6mm layer of foam made a big difference to a tiled window sill in my house. Otherwise, I've used a double-honeycomb thermal blind to limit heat loss through my aluminium framed patio doors, at least at night! (£300 for the blind vs £5,000 for new doors) BTW, I bought the FLIR One camera, but it looks like yours has better detail and refresh rate.

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

Ooh, that sounds like the sort of thing I need, I'll see what I can find that's suitable, thanks for mentioning it. Yeah, it's annoying that these frames are so bad at losing heat, it seems daft that a "premium" product should be inferior thermally.

[@shazvayper4472]

I was about to splash out on aluminum frames to replace my wooden sash windows. Looks like I'll be going with cheaper UPVC windows instead.

[@michalfish7401]

Hey, great video. I have the same camera and also the same findings like you (new house). I think we cannot do much around windows and corners. But when I saw your ventilation issue, I've turned off the recuperation to see, if I will have the same effect. I would be interested if you can also share your fixes if there will be any.

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

I was planning on showing some of the improvements I've made at some point. I tidied up and augmented the loft insulation so there are no longer any cold spots, so that was a big success. I also found a non-return vent which works well, although it does tend to flap in the wind so I've only installed one on the kitchen vent for now. I'm keeping my eye out for things we could do for the window frames but so far no luck.

[@Sean_S1000]

nice video btw, i have the same one for a while. it was on sale in the summer and i need to use it properly now :), my drafts and cold spots might get solved before next Christmas lol

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

Thanks. I've got to admit I'm having entirely too much fun with this camera, not only for finding heat leaks in our house!

[@Sean_S1000]

@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk have you tied it on the cat (not kat) yet? i have looks really cool

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

@@Sean_S1000 as it happens yes! Although it was our neighbour's cat who thinks she lives here half the time. She's very floofy and clearly well insulated (apart from her eyes).

[@GilbertP57]

Your extractor fan outlet should have little louvres on it which is the one-way valve. You might be able to add a bit of foam to the frame to make the louvres more airtight.

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

There are no louvres, I think that's the problem.

[@davideyres955]

You always get cold spots in the corners as there isn’t as much are movement so the heat in the air dosnt get to conduit it’s great into the surface as much as it does on the open areas. You could add and additional layer of insulated plasterboard to the dot and dab walls but you loose some interior space. Be careful about some insulation as you need to consider condensation. If you have a lot of humidity and insulate there there is the risk of creating a colder spot behind the insulation and any air leakage into that spot risks the moisture condensing out of the air and creating damp and therefore mould. Remember when you go in the loft make sure you don’t block any eve vents or you could get damp up there. Lofts are meant to be drafty.

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

We keep a close eye on the humidity in the house, it's well under control. I have no intention of sealing up the loft itself, just making sure the insulation is laid properly.

[@johnb7644]

A vent back draught shutter is what is needed maybe and one with foam tape to seal it and stop the annoying noise of the flaps shutting when it’s windy

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

Yes, that's my plan. I'm amazed the vents didn't have this sort of thing fitted already, but there you go!

[@craigwrigglesworth8046]

The simple three flap outlets we have often get lifted by the wind so can be noisy and not totally effective. Not sure what better solution there is but that's what I found with ours. Your house being on the top of a hill could make you more prone to this too

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

I found some with cowls that might prevent that, so I'm going to get one as an experiment. If that works I'll try the same with the other vents.

[@2006craig]

Would be keen to know cowls work, Tim, as I think we might benefit from a couple too if so.

[@covelus]

This is a cool video! I am trying to make something measuring at longer distances, have you tried this cam to measure something at, let's say, 100 m. away?

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

I have not, no. I guess it depends how big the thing you're pointing it at is.

[@3DBunker]

If your skirting board is gloss painted then the reflection blocks the thermal imaging & will show up as cool/cold. Same reason why people wearing glasses looks cold

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

By adding black tape to surfaces you can get a reliable measurement and I can say with confidence that these measurements are reliable in this case.

[@vincentwilkes9611]

Thanks, interesting. Did you discover any locations that were the result of light shading? Light will ultimately resolve itself as heat.

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

No, I don't think so, or at least it wasn't obvious. A lightbulb puts out about 7 watts of light, that's going to be completely overwhelmed by the hundreds of watts from the heating. So probably not going to be noticeable against all the other variations.

[@davidcoates6768]

You normally have a gap between the plasterboard and the floor to prevent damp being sucked up the wall. @AliDymock has some great videos on adding insulation backed plasterboard around the house

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

Ah, nice, thanks, I'll check it out.

[@thepete129]

Looks good, something I would love to try, yet wouldn't want to buy. Good little business opportunity there renting them out 🤔

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

Octopus used to lend them out, but not sure if they still do. I'm gonna lend mine around the neighbours.

[@MrKlawUK]

do another quick run round at the weekend when its been 0c overnight, may pull out some new info

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

I'll be doing regular checks, it's quite compelling!

[@Marty0o0o0]

Would the emissivity differences between the materials e.g. metal window frame and wall, make it look like it is losing heat but actually it's not?

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

They're painted so the emissivity is similar to other non-metallic materials. You can really see the difference with bare metal though, you're right. You can stick some tape on bare metal to get a better temperature reading if required.

[@jw200]

I'm planning to rent a thermal cam and check for leaks in my garage. Will fix the leaks before I put a heater in it

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

It'd be interesting to compare how much renting one actually costs. Had some folks say it was still pretty expensive. But in any case, I hope it proves useful.

[@norfolkmustard]

I have one of these too, much better resolution compared to the flir it replaced. Something I don’t think you showed which I found good was being able to add upto 3 bounding boxes and it will show high/low temp in each. Good for focusing on e.g. door frame gaps. Also interesting to see heat of your footprints/fingerprints on surfaces :)

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

Yes, I didn't want to spend too long showing off all the features but that is handy for sure. I've been doing all sorts of experiments around the house the last few days!

[@TommysDaddy]

Did you check the solar panels & could you use it to detect faults ?

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

I didn't actually, but yes, that is definitely another thing you could use the camera for. I'll be doing that during the summer, probably.

[@MrRoosterx]

A theory. Don't you think the reason you have a colder area between walls/floor, wall/ceiling and small gaps because of the heated air can't reach these places? For example when you mount smoke alarms they should not be close to any edge of the ceiling but instead a bit away from the wall, this is because the smoke(in heated air by the fire) won't reach these places.

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

I don't believe that's the case here but I'd be happy to be proved wrong.

[@paulodonnell753]

Re the “skirting board?” (American here - we don’t get words)… You said you used to have radiators… could those blue lines be pipes?

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

No, the radiator pipes run vertically up the walls, it's definitely not that. Good suggestion though.

[@rufus_mcdufus]

Very interesting. I've wanted one of these for ages. It's a shame no-one's come up with a scientific breakthough to make them cheaper (and not require expensive materials like gallium, indium or whatever). Hopefully one day...

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

Yeah, I think there are some phones with this built in too, but as you say not exactly a trivial cost. One trick would be to get together with all your neighbours and buy one unit that you share around. I think Octopus were also lending them out a while back, not sure if they still are or not.

[@MarkGovier]

I bought one last year. Compared to the competition they are considerably cheaper, have far higher resolution and update rate (more, smaller and therefore more responsive pixels). In our extension which has simple painted plaster walls over blocks, you can clearly see the difference between the blocks and the mortar lines. Useful for finding studs too. This is a great thermal camera.

[@radiotowers1159]

Of course warm air rises, possibly cold air being drawn in downstairs venting upstairs, the vents are there for a reason, no ventilation means damp walls at the cold spots.

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

The ventilation is there to be controlled as and when you want to use it (when cooking or showering etc.). Uncontrolled ventilation is not helpful as it sucks all the warm air out, wasting energy. We monitor the humidity in our house closely and keep it well under control so I'm not worried about damp.

[@marktt]

@@TimAndKatsGreenWalkit would be really interesting to see CO2 levels…

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

@@marktt kzbin.info/www/bejne/mKC7lJShh9urlbMsi=f6giI4QUhdI2S3oI

[@Jaw0lf]

I have always fancied one of these Thermal Imaging cameras, but too expensive for me to justify.

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

They are a bit indulgent. Clubbing together with friends and neighbours is one way to go. I'm lending mine out to some of my neighbours to use since I'm not going to be needing it all the time.

[@jw200]

You don't have tool rentals or something ?

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

@@jw200 apparently hiring then is still pretty expensive, almost as much as buying one like this. Although Octopus used to lend them out, not sure if they still do or not.

[@JohnR31415]

Hopefully dabs of plaster rather than mortar - but yes, that’s exactly what those dots are.

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

Yeah, close enough.

[@andytrewin]

use an external flap vent

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

That's exactly what I'm planning to do!

[@MarkGovier]

No thermal camera will show the correct surface temperature of a metal surface, such as the windows. To read the correct temperature you need to temporarily put some tape on there. Thermal photons cannot leave the electron cloud of the metal.

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

The frames are painted, it's not bare metal. And as it happens I did put some tape on one of the frames to see and it shows the same temperature as the rest of the frame, so I'm pretty confident the readings are correct.

[@MarkGovier]

@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk Okey dokey. Your house is clearly "nearly new" from your chat about the insulation. Shame that better frames aren't compulsory.

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

@@MarkGovier I know, I had assumed they would be good windows but these frames are dreadful. The house is only 2.5 yrs old!

[@JohnR31415]

Really need a hire service for these…

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

You used to be able to borrow one from Octopus. Not sure if they still offer that.

[@simon7790]

Many tool hire shops rent them by the day.

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

@@simon7790 that's good to know.

[@robinbennett5994]

Many hire shops will rent you a bigger thermal camera, but even one day costs as much as buying one of these little ones.

[@geoffreycoan]

That’s not good. I’d very much like to use one of these to survey our house, but buying one for £200+ doesn’t seem worth it for a device I’ll rarely use

[@Nuts-Bolts]

Oh dear. Moist air is lighter than dry air, so ceiling vents help to avoid mould spreading throughout the home - even when the fans are off! Try installing a ‘heat economiser’ which will recover some of the heat in the exhausted air and conduct it to warm the incoming air. Tip: steer clear of advice on YT videos by amateurs like yourself. 😉

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

No need to be rude. Have you ever considered people might take more notice of your suggestions if you don't insult them ;)

[@rufus_mcdufus]

How can moist air be lighter than dry air?

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

@@rufus_mcdufus that is actually true, as it happens. It's because water has a lower molecular weight than nitrogen, so air with a high water content is slightly lighter per unit volume than dry air. Although I never suggested blocking up the vents so I'm not sure what bad advice I'm giving here. Nothing wrong with adding a one way valve to a vent to prevent cold air blowing in, so far as I can tell! It's not stopping moist air going out when required.

[@rufus_mcdufus]

@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk Yep thanks - I read up on this and realised I was wrong!

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

@@rufus_mcdufus it is counterintuitive though, isn't it? Science, eh?

[@robert_minarik]

hey Tim, swapping from EDF to Octopus Intelligent Go, created an account prior seeing your referral link, ie I can apparently still add it now but not sure what to enter, its asking for either your email or personal link to copy? happy to give us both 50 credit 🙂 thx

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

No problem, you should be able to send them my referral code after the fact. share.octopus.energy/cute-quail-190

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

Seems to have worked!

[@robert_minarik]

@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk excellent, worked, thx