Looper - Can A Film Break Its Own Rules?

[@TylerMowery]

Get Practical Tools to Write Your Great Screenplay: www.practicalscreenwriting.com

[@77solsken]

Does the Rainmaker kill Joe's wife in every timeline? That's the key.

[@Kaiyanwang82]

The fact that someone that likes this movie is screenwriter is outright disheartening. Someone skilled can send the same message you see in this mess of a movie and describe in the video... but written in a way that is not illogical to the point of being immersion breaking. This is the future of film writing I see. Relentless mediocrity praised by the same circle of people.

[@GrammeStudio]

Oh come on! this is such a cop out. this is like when religious apologists fail to defend the technicality and realism of their story and they make excuse by saying that it's all metaphorical and try to divert the critic's attention to the message instead. this results the might of their divine constantly regressing.

[@randell9667]

I can't see how anyone can praise this film, it's awful. And you've only touched on one bit of the plethora of nonsense, plot holes, and inconsistencies, sprinkled throughout this miserable excuse for a movie.

[@TheDreamersofDreams]

There's 1 error in your evaluation: Old Joe vanished, but did he disappear because young Joe died or because the rainmaker never exists, so old Joe never goes back in time?

[@gnuling296]

As the old people get every single injury their young versions get (shown multiple times in the movies) that has to mean that he has mortal wounds. He can't be alive in his timeline if what was shown in the movie applies.

[@gnuling296]

@unrepeatable raddish That doesn't work either. I've tried to somehow make this story kinda work by explaining away such things but it's impossible.

[@chickentowel7036]

There's two timelines, the first one is how he failed closing his loop, it ends when he fell down trying to escape and blacked out. The second timeline is where things get complicated, the alternate story of "what if". He can close his loop but first he need to help himself after blacking out. The old Joe travelled in a different timeline, the one where he failed to kill himself, so the young one and the old one is the same. It really doesn't make sense how they combined the two timelines. Different timeline but same person. That's how the film broke their rule, by not explaining the time travel part. But this is not really about time travel, as long as the story is good, fvck it. lol

[@gnuling296]

@@chickentowel7036 I think you misunderstood a lot of things. Your "first one" is the second timeline and is the one where things get complicated. The first time line is the one where he successfully closed his loop without anyone's help. He didn't help himself and he didn't black out. That is old Joe's past. I agree, though, that it doesn't make sense and that the implicit and explicit rules were broken.

[@chickentowel7036]

@Gnuling it doesn't matter which timeline is the first or the second one. The first is when Bruce Willis got away. Young Joe failed killing his target. Wanted by the syndicate. He escaped the syndicate, fell down and blacked out. Then we see another timeline in which he killed Bruce, the Young Joe went on for 30 years, got captured, wife dead. Then he went back. Bruce Willis got away. It's a loop, with two timelines which makes it confusing.

[@RootyTootTootin]

Also if murder is so difficult to get away with to the point that they have to send joe back in time to be killed, why does the mob not even hesitate to kill his wife?

[@h.b.smith_writer]

They accidentally killed his wife.

[@RootyTootTootin]

Hunter Smith how does a super prestigious mob that uses time travel to get people killed just “accidentally” kill someone when its so extremely difficult to get away with that they have to use time travel. Like that’s not a mistake that this mob would ever ever ever make. I get it was an accident but that would never happen.

[@h.b.smith_writer]

@@RootyTootTootin The henchmen intended to kill Joe but was startled by the wife and shot got her instead, and at first her gardening tool looked like a weapon. It's not completely logical but people make dumb mistakes in real life, and it makes enough sense given that this is about time travel.

[@ShooterQ]

@@h.b.smith_writer I understand what you're saying, but the setup is clumsy. As the OG comment said, if murder is so hard to get away with, they should have it established that it's not one of their desired outcomes. So why have guns at all? Because we, the audience, recognize them as threatening and they need to get the guy to comply. But wait, they have this no-contact device that can knock someone out... so why not just use those for everything? Because we need Joe's wife to die so that he has a reason to come back and try to kill the Rainmaker. The writing for the character motivation and spectacle are just running into each other. It's not inexcusable, but it could've been avoided.

[@h.b.smith_writer]

@@ShooterQ I can somewhat see what you're seeing too, though if I had to guess what Rian Johnson had in mind it was that they had guns to add to the threat level so Joe will have no reason to try and escape. Our opinions will differ but I don't find it completely illogical. If they didn't have guns there isn't another way for her to die.

[@datrippasnippa]

I'm just surprised how he kept his miata stock factory fresh with no mods for 60 years

[@jamesmata2945]

Its a sleeper tons of mods under the hood

[@weedman419]

LS1 swapped AWD sleeper miata

[@deltazulu2848]

You missed the exposition part. Joe is smart, savy and handy. He got that car to run like Han Solo kept the Falcon going all those years.

[@janloncaric3621]

Im dieing

[@moaimachines8290]

Finally found a car person here.

[@nateds7326]

Looper is a movie that makes little to no sense logically, but makes perfect sense thematically.

[@randell9667]

Or it just doesn't make any sense at all, written by a writer who is only trying to link together scenes he wants to shoot.

[@nateds7326]

@@randell9667 that's just every Terrence Malik movie, baby

[@xChikyx]

thats the problem with time travel in everything, it is too complicated

[@jaffachannel]

But laying a good consistent foundation on how your type of time travel works solves those problems

[@finixhelix3985]

@harrythebarry I found Predestination and Steins Gate amazing. You should give them a try.

[@dphorgan]

"I hate time travel." CPT Janeway

[@maybemammad3878]

To this date I've only seen one movie/ tv show that does it perfectly: the Netflix dark series

[@xChikyx]

@@maybemammad3878 ohhhh true, everything there is way too good

[@zanethezaniest274]

Damn this movie is better if u think less and enjoy more

[@Lalandia-fy6qb]

Yes.

[@man2.071]

Willful ignorance

[@gnuling296]

@@ELMQ That's why I was disappointed with this movie. I want to think about these concepts and what consequences they have. But the movie was too inconsistent and had a bigger focus on being an action movie.

[@Cavers]

Same with Back to the Future. The only time travel stories that kinda work are with different parallel time lines or the complete loop time line like Harry Potter.

[@gnuling296]

@@Cavers True, but for one thing those are comedy films. And they still are not as far removed from making sense as Looper is. In Looper the only thing that changes is the body of the person from the future and the way that happens does not make sense. Causality does not make any sense at all in Looper while in Back to the Future you can choose to believe that everything works.

[@NotAGarage]

All of you missed it... It's even deeper than that... This is the best written movie ever. Here it is: The little boy Sid is Joe... When Joe mentions to Suzie he can't remember his mother, he said she would rub her fingers through his hair, at very last few seconds of the film you see Sara do just that with her fingers through Joe's hair then it immediately flashes to little Sid sleeping. After the credits you see the same scene, or loop, of Joe waiting and looking at his watch to finally see old Joe finally appear again. Thus why we saw that scene play out TWICE earlier in the film. Exactly why old Joe died, but the little Joe is still alive to continue the other outcome in this loop. Seth and Old Joe mentions their is a rainmaker, but no one has seem him and no one knows his name, but heard he saw his mother shot(which was Sara at the end) and he would need an army(the gat men) to take down everyone. This would be one of the never ending alternate lives. At one point Joe tells the little boy Sid that he remembers his mother abandoned him and he fantasized about killing everyone over and over who had anything to do with. He said that's all he hunted and grew up wanting to do. Which would be the alternate life. Remember Joe learning French? Their is a French flag in Sid's room. The same refinery Joe disposes of bodies at is the same place the time machine is in. Abe says when he found Joe he was angry, young, and had hair covering one eye. Later in the film you see Joe with that same imagine. Also towards the end of the film you see Sid on the train being angry with hair slightly covering one eye in that general sense. Another interesting coincidence is when at one point young Joe tells Seth "hop a train get out of town." Old Joe leaves a note on young Joe after knocking him out saying that exact quote. Then at the end you see the little boy (or very young Joe) doing exactly that. Some little stuff they intentionally put in for similarities. He is connecting and finding stuff he loves that his mom did. Like you see Sara run her hand over Sid's foot while he's sleeping the same way Joe's wife does later on. You also see both Joe's order at the diner scrambled eggs, and in the next scene Sara is cooking Sid scrambled eggs. Basically Sara raises Sid/Joe right as she says he grows up and closes all loops. Mean while their is already the alternate life for this to happen where Joe is going through his encounter with old Joe. Exactly why we saw it TWICE in the film. Once it started the loop it won't end. It has to have one to have the other outcomes. Ignore his wife that is throwing you off Because this all is a endless loop. Movie is exactly that, an infinite loop.

[@athulyarajendran9727]

I had the same feeling too after watching the movie. I think Sid is the future rainmaker and Joe...the story maybe not just the past..but different dimensions I think. If joe is really the rainmaker and he closes all the loops thereby killing the older Joe?? So there's two Joe? That's where I'm confused?

[@Ragingknight12]

This can't be right, because that means incest is happening, if Joe, is CID and Sara, is cids mother, then when CID grows up and becomes Joe, then there is a version of himself having sex with his mother, exactly what happened with Joe and Sara, they both fucked, and if Joe is CID then that means Sara is Joe's mother.

[@alikassab2233]

Joshua....Was waiting for a video that says this and your explanation is exactly what I’m thinking. I believe there enough evidence in the movie that tells you Cid= young joe=older joe=rainmaker

[@alikassab2233]

Raycast games ....I thought of this too but just because incest is happening, doesn’t make the plot not right.... you should check out ‘Dark’ on Netflix, it’s way deeper and darker

[@NotAGarage]

@@alikassab2233 👍👌🙏💪

[@wafflingmean4477]

I always interpreted that Sid became the Rainmaker without interference, as he was prone to incidents anyway, like when he killed his aunt. However, the main character saw that his older selfs attempt to kill Sid didn't stop the Rainmaker from being born, which meant his future wouldn't change, meaning that this would be a time loop of suffering that would never end. There were two different causes of the Rainmaker, the second was the time loop. I believe films cannot break their rules and still make sense. However, the the rule break is small sometimes an audience will just move on. I still think it's a bad idea though.

[@gnuling296]

"However, the main character saw that his older selfs attempt to kill Sid didn't stop the Rainmaker from being born, which meant his future wouldn't change, meaning that this would be a time loop" That is a very good thought. That would make the plot more logical.

[@Kageofyoutube]

@@gnuling296 good thought

[@gnuling296]

@@Kageofyoutube Why did you reply to me? It wasn't my thought.

[@Theegoaat]

How did sids mom know about loopers?

[@rebeccagralla9944]

Haven't seen this film in years, but re-visiting after Knives Out to see some of Rian's early work. The way I initially read it was that when Old Joe escapes, that creates a new, separate timeline. And it is this new timeline, one of an infinite number of possible futures, that happen. We as viewers just happen to be seeing this one. The reason Old Joe vanishes when Young Joe kills himself is because this is a NEW timeline. The moment Old Joe made his choice to fight back and escape, a new timeline or universe was created. Young Joe is part of that new timeline, as is everyone else- they aren't connected to the past anymore. So, when Young Joe kills himself, it makes sense for Old Joe to die- they are both in this timeline together, in the new possibility that was made. Basically- every decision you make creates a new universe. I turned left on the street today, but there are an infinite number of other timelines that exist where I turned right, or kept going straight, or turned around, or stopped to tie my shoe... And on and on.

[@bunny42g99]

i agree that there are infinitely many sequences of actions which can produce entirely different universes, but the problem with separating the two timelines is that in the movie they are both directly connected. the actions of young joe influence old joe's memory and his idealized "eventuality" with his wife. Old joe is motivated by a desire to avenge his wife and retain his memories of her, which means that young joe's timeline (and the infinitely many possibilities of actions that may take place) have bearing over the outcomes of Old joe's timeline and the actions that occurred there.

[@adrialvarez8324]

100% agree, the flash from dc has the same type of idea in a way

[@botya1013]

@@bunny42g99 I think you're taking this movie the wrong way. This film is not a "sci-fi action", but a psychological drama (this is stated in the film itself) in a "Sci-fi" shell. Time travel in this film is a metaphor for reflection. Therefore, everything works logically in this film, it's just a different logic, not "sci-fi".

[@MrJeffcoley1]

The film established this chain of causation in the earlier sequence with the other looper. They mutilate the young version and as they do the older man suddenly finds himself missing body parts.

[@MrJeffcoley1]

@@bunny42g99 Don’t forget the part where young Joe makes some choice and then old Joe receives “memories” of having a child with his wife.

[@TheEvilDatsuTube]

Personally, I could not get into the story because of its inconsistencies. As Mark Twain said: "The difference between reality and fiction? Fiction has to make sense."

[@donavonmarshall2641]

After watching looper I came to watch this video. I turned on the equalizer and as I'm reading your comment while the equalizer intro plays, this exact same quote you posted then shows on the equalizer intro. This made absolutely no sense to me...must be reality!

[@zombieshoot4318]

Tom Clancy said that quote not Twain.

[@clash79]

@@zombieshoot4318 What if Twain said that before his loop was closed, then Clancy stole it b/c he was the one who ended it and the only one to remember the truth?

[@Tidegast]

I'm just thinking to myself it's better if future Joe got sent back to his timeline again.

[@rc....]

Mark Twain - 'The only difference between reality and fiction is that fiction needs to be credible.'

[@eagereyes5013]

Something I love about this movie that I only realized watching the diner scene back in this video - Rian does a good job playing with the idea that time travel would make you go crazy if your memories weren't actually memories and just eventualities. I think time travel in fiction is best if it has confusing paradoxes because you then have the opportunity to show how that would affect the mind of a time traveller. In 12 Monkeys Bruce Willis played a character living between two times who that happens to exactly. It's a brilliant movie and I bet this is Rian's nod to it

[@randell9667]

Don't you dare compare this piece of shit to 12 Monkeys, 12 monkeys is great, this is fecal matter.

[@2016709889]

It is my opinion that kid blue (guy with the big revolver) is the younger “Abe”. Think about it. Abe was sent back, from the future. His younger self has to be living at this time. He has to get involved with them in the future somehow, so the relationship with the organization had to be when he’s younger (had to be with them awhile to be trusted, to be partly in management. But also somewhat of a screwup, hence the crappy job they gave him. In my mind, it’s really obvious! Especially the attention he gives him, & also the way he’s sorta mean with him, because it’s him, doesn’t want him to be a screwup, cause being a screwup is why he ended up with such a crappy placement in management. I’ll repeat this part again, to expound on it = in order for him to be placed in a management/boss position, he would’ve had to be trusted, had to be there from the beginning, also when he started in the beginning of this type of career, he would’ve been sorta in charge in some small way, then grew into the boss he became in the future (to then be sent back in the past by the main boss. Kid blue is sort of a leader of the fighting crew. But...... I get the feeling the director did not think of this, I think it’s just a coincidence that it all lines up. Reason why I don’t think the director thought of this is because when they (in the movie) smash kid blues hand with a hammer, Abe’s hand doesn’t change. They should’ve had Abe look at his own hand after, maybe open it and close it like it hurts from arthritis. They could’ve even had him do that periodically throughout the movie, like a tick, (even befor they smashed kid blue’s hand)

[@cjkalandek996]

You're literally explaining why I love time travel movies. Because time travel is never really the focus of any story; it's a plot device. Take _Back to the Future_ for example. While that is a time travel movie, the time travel aspect of it is just a means to an end. The end being that BTTF is a movie about self-confidence and standing up for what's right. While Marty has to fix the mess he created when he interacted with his parents, his interactions with them also gave them the self-confidence they never had in the original time stream, as George originally became a nervous pushover and Lorraine originally became a resentful drunk. But by the end, in the pseudo restored timeline, George became a successful author who doesn't take shit from Biff and Lorraine approves of Marty's relationship with Jennifer.

[@darthkek1953]

The best time-travel movie is Primer. Watch that and get back to me about the time travel just being a plot device.

[@randomt800kiddo2]

terminator as well, specifically 1 and 2

[@BlackLegASTRO]

the movie actually makes sense. In every programming software when it encountered an infinite loop the software itself gives an error or it shuts down entirely. the old joe is the real timeline which forever in a loop until that last iteration (young joe in the movie), somehow different from his other self stops the loop. the only loophole I find is the rainmaker. how did he became the rainmaker? is it after the old joe failed to kill kid joe and he transform? rainmaker exist already in old joe's timeline unless he did go back to his timeline. the plausible scenario would be the rainmaker is just a myth or a different person.

[@jesusstaccato8448]

Your explanation for how the film "actually makes sense" relies on the word "somehow", which means it doesn't make sense.

[@uncreative7821]

I think that the the rain maker just disliked loopers and was closing loops for that reason. The old joe's wife died and boom. Infinite loop.

[@Mariocraft97]

@@jesusstaccato8448 well, it is not nessesary to explain every part of this, as timetravel is a undefined part of our reality. We dont know how it would work, how it might work, or what to expect. If there is a chance they are linked in that particular way, there is no need to explain the spesifics around it. If such a link does not conflict the rules set for the movie, then it does make sense and is a valid point.

[@queenofcawks9514]

It's also possible sid always becomes Rainmaker, the moment the aunt died he was destined for it maybe. And I think you could even say Rainmaker will continue a cycle through his work regradless, even if joe is dead he can turn someone else into a new joe, a new abe or a new rainmaker through his actions. Creating a cycle or a loop metaphorically

[@MarcosAlexandre-no3qx]

@@queenofcawks9514 i think joe broke the loop. the rainmaker probably became the rainmaker by killing his real mom somehow. By guilty and anger issues he never controlled his powers until he had appeared. His hate for loopers is probably business thing. Then there is the second loop, the one that old joe kills his mother, what makes him hate the loopers and joe. and there is the one where joe helped the rainmaker, taught him a little about protecting his mom and the one where he controlled his power as a child, and saw joe sacrifice. all three timelines exist and happens but in the end only the one where joe sacrifices himself with the loopers destroyed becomes the real timeline

[@Paddster]

the "easy" argument for why old Joe disappears is that he IS part of young Joes timeline, thus suffering the same consequences as young Joe. That's why his memories are in fluctuation. He is inherently linked to young Joe by being the same person(genetically) in the same timeline(physically).

[@dansir4102]

Joe never makes a case for multiple timelines. He is always making the case for one time stream that is altered constantly, thus the “cloudy” memories.

[@mattbrw08]

fun video, i think rian johnson has stated that he views it as there being multiple timelines and we are simply watching 1 iteration of those. that explains old joe's disappearance as well.

[@gnuling296]

But there is no one iteration of those where injuries suddenly appear. The story might jump from one to another timeline but then a lot of things would change that don't. For example a Seth without feet would not drive the car like this.

[@sshantobia1]

I believe it too, because we're seeing the timeline aftermath of original Joe kill rainmakers' mom this causing him to become the threat he is. But we keep jumping back and forth between old Joe and new Joe. We never see the difference in timelines from the rainmakers point of view, which tends to make us forget that it is indeed multiple timelines stacked on one another interfering with the time loop.

[@sshantobia1]

And it's hard to show all of those timelines and their corresponding futures. I believe for year the movie came out; that it did a pretty good job explaining that. My best example of this would be the movie tenet, that movie shows one time loop from all point of views

[@NTJordan]

Okay, I just now saw this. I had seen the thumbnail, but for some reason I thought it was some big essayist's video and that I'd get to it later. I really liked this one. It really comes down to the small story and whether that's enough to keep the audience engaged. Great stuff!

[@TylerMowery]

+N.T. Jordan thanks man!

[@cryogeneric]

Wait a minute... did the movie explicitly state that the Rainmaker came to be because old Joe tried to kill him? If it did, I missed it. If it didn't, then there isn't a problem. The Rainmaker comes to be regardless of Joe's actions. Thus, had his old self killed his mom it would have simply made a worse version of him. That's at least how I interpreted it.

[@mehdimehdo3359]

Nice editing, i like how you use music, it's not invading. That's really good, it's both clear and convincing, I enjoyed your style too. I wish youtubers would focus more on getting their message clearer than rather exposing blurry facts drowned in post-college gibberish. Hope you'll continue your work. Good luck!

[@TylerMowery]

+mehdi d.margolin lol I think I know which 'Tubers you may be referring to. Thanks for your comment!

[@pradyuminater]

Simple and Best...

[@ITm4n]

Holy crap. Knowing that the rainmaker shouldn't have existed in the first place kinda just ruined the movie for me. Can't believe I didn't think of that.

[@Mukation]

One could argue that "old Joe" did not infact exist untill he showed up in the past. We saw in the original timeline that "Old Joe" remembered, his older self showed up bound and gagged, like eveyrone else had. I mean the movie shows us another looper who comes back and is not killed by his younger self and later is seen loosing fingers, limbs, tounge etc because the others are torturing the younger version but say that that did not kill him in order to not "mess things up". If they tortured him to the point where he can barley walk, how would he have been able to show up back in time and be able to run away? I think the "future" versions are just just temperal dublicates from a "what if" future that are, on a fundamental level, connected to what happens to the younger version Short version: It doesn't make any sense. But it's still a cool movie!

[@adrialvarez8324]

You can make a story about anything and however you want it when it comes to time travel and will never make sense

[@DarkLightProjector]

@@adrialvarez8324 All films that contain time travel are inherently flawed

[@peterfrank3365]

I think Rian Johnson himself said in the lines of that he wanted to tell a story of characters facing conflicts derived from time travel, but not neccesarily based on it. When old Joe expressed disinterest in telling its mechanism or "the rules", it's like a telling to not place much mind in it.

[@dominictalley6563]

I feel like the reason he disappeared is because his future where he exists was still a possibility up until that moment when he kills himself now making it entirely impossible for him to have the future he did being that he killed himself and the old self never got a chance to live

[@Chris-kh2kn]

I think Rian Johnson never made a rule so it doesn't feel like it's broken. Most of the plotholes which people point out is not plot holes, but the plot itself. In the whole movie, the mechanism of time travel or its rule was never explained. Not definite. So we are more interested in the story rather than a sci fi concept.

[@Thedudemannn]

This was one of the few video essays I could actually get into. It was detailed and didn't sound pretentious. Nice job man.

[@branscombe_]

“That time travel shit will fry your brain, kid”

[@BrosephtheAsian]

Interesting take on seeing this movie not as time travel movie but about the characters themselves. In that context this movie is really good at sending that message but I think most people including me saw this as a time movie.

[@gredangeo]

It sounds like The Rainmaker was destined to exist anyways, in the first timeline at least. In timeline of Old Joe, there had to have been somebody else that caused The Rainmaker. When Old Joe came back, a sequence of events changed that made Old Joe the cause of The Rainmaker. In any other timeline sequence, Joe probably attempted to shoot Old Joe, only to killed the mother himself, or failed to shoot in the first place, leaving Old Joe to shoot. For the movie's events, what we saw was a last minute ultimate change, where Young Joe killed himself to prevent Old Joe being the killer. But you know what. Let's leave out all of that, because the biggest plot hole of all time is, Is that somehow, these people are bringing back future gold to past selves, and basically recreating new money. How is that not bad for the economy? Where is that gold from anyways? Do both Bars exist in two places at once? What gives? I'm willing to forgive the initial plot setup of "not being able to hide a body". You have no movie otherwise. (ok, whatever, "you're in this room now"), but the gold and silver that comes in, just doesn't add up. Lol. (Still like the movie though. Pretty good.)

[@devilsadvocate4081]

Maybe the golds and silver are sent back to the future once sold by the loopers. Maybe.

[@Dunia_Islam17]

Ceramah

[@Ragingknight12]

@@devilsadvocate4081 they don't have time travel in the time the gold and silver is sent to. The movie take place in the year 2044, and the main character says time travel hasn't been invented but in 30 years it will have been, then immediately outlawed.

[@giovannimoise1473]

Good video man. Please do more.

[@TylerMowery]

+giovanni moise thank you!

[@ReZhorw]

Your way of thinking has made me enjoy this movie even more

[@cheesecakelasagna]

This why Dragon Ball Z is smart to choose the multiverse type of time travel theory. Much less headache to endure, you can easily focus on the story, characters, and action scenes.

[@gnuling296]

The one timeline can be great too even if it is not completely logical. It just has to keep the plot holes to a minimum. Looper unfortunately didn:t.

[@Technique1995]

The story has plot hole but it is the characters , the world building and unpredictability that keeps us engaged.

[@MatoPotat0]

The rainmaker being the mobster doesn’t make sense, In the movie it said that time travel was invented, then immediately outlawed. And the rain maker was a powerful entity in which during the movie taking control of different areas of looper activity, and after doing so closed the loops of those areas. I only saw this movie once a while ago so forgive me if my memory doesn’t serve me right. But the looper activity is assumed to have taken place in a short time span, either 4-8 months after time travel was outlawed, and the rainmaker also takes control in this time. In the movie the tk(telekinetic) kid was smart/powerful, and after witnessing the death of his mother devotes his time to invent time travel to prevent it, in which it immediately becomes outlawed and stolen by the mafia. To which the kid using his extraordinarily powerful tk starts to take over and stop what he has created which are the loopers, the same loopers that eventually create him. That’s my theory as to what happens in terms of the rainmakers storyarc, as I feel the name fits the kids description from his tk abilities and his high inteligencias to invent time travel. This is also why the people involved with looper activity also identified the kid as the rainmaker and why the mother already knew about the people trying to kill her son as she said in the film multiple have tried. It’s pretty much impossible to say that the kid was not the rainmaker but it makes more sense to stack on the fact that he himself invented time travel. Which gives his motive to take control and close the loops during the movie.

[@dayking7950]

but why would he create something that makes him vulnerable?

[@MatoPotat0]

@@dayking7950 He might have just thought that he could predict and prepare for any event, and his motivation to change the past might have clouded his judgement. But even then I think my theory holds true, I havent seen an explanation that I believe more

[@darkpaladin.]

Looper was nice but can someone clarify why the old Joe that the current old Joe killed was tied up and the other Joe was not and was not ready to die I mean we saw in the scene his life transition and leading up to it but was the turning point the wife dying?

[@aaronmehaffey6251]

What he's referring to is called the Novikov Self-Consistency Principle. I recommend looking it up sometime, it's a fascinating bit of theory!

[@spiritualconnection4807]

This video is incredibly good. You did really a great job!

[@saraestridge1956]

This was a fantastic analysis! I’m writing about looper for my sci-fi seminar paper. I’ll definitely cite your work if I use this!

[@TylerMowery]

Awesome! I hope the paper goes well!

[@zephiel87]

This may be a bit late, but I might be able to explain this plot hole. The timeline seen in the movie, with Old Joe trying to kill the rain maker is not the correct time line, but a a loop within a loop that gets broken with Young Joe's death. This irregular timeline mess up begins because of Old Seth at the beginning of the movie. In this new timeline, Old Seth escapes, young Seth is captured and dismembered and is kept alive artificially. This events not only changes Joe's perspective about his existence and the loopers, but also the entire timeline, making it a compromised timeline. They can't merely kill Seth without undoing everything he had done for the organization in the future potentially leading to catastrophic results: Everyone he had killed in his Looper carrier would have escaped retroactively messing up the future exponentially. They therefore keep him alive until the time where he would have been sent back to close his loop and at that point his younger, healthy self, would finish him off bringing back the timeline to it's ''normal'' state: Joe wouldn't feel the need to abandon the life style, would have went to France and would have his loop closed as he should. The fact Joe shoots himself at the end throws a monkey wrench in the entire thing though leaving its impact on the future, and the rise of Rainmaker uncertain.

[@jarintasnim2130]

The ending was confusing however the movie was so enjoyable.

[@randyangel9412]

But how? His younger self killed himself

[@SACosby-lp5td]

There are multiple eventualities that coalesce when you make different decisions in the different time lines

[@falstoffe]

It doesn't necessarily break its own rules, because Joe's "Then I saw it... so I changed it." is not the first "what if" alternate future. The first "then I saw it... so I changed it" in the movie was Abe, about Joe's adulthood. And Abe is from the future. I contend there are THREE major alternate timelines. If the Rainmaker is not made, then Abe is not made and Joe is not made. At least not the assassin version of Joe. It's like a quantum particle with "3 spin" -- the timeline has to loop back around 3 times for the symmetry to be neatly closed.

[@Dina8485]

I remember being so confused with this movie....and I am still confused

[@niconicoseri]

Old Joe's mission doesn't create the Rainmaker. The kid will grow to become the Rainmaker anyway.

[@amadeusradio9608]

Time travel gives a hard time to most people. There are two models of time travel in movies: Linear (Back to the future), and circular (Twelve Monkeys). In the first, the rules are pretty much as Tyler expects them to be in this video. In the second, fate cannot be changed, and even if you think you are changing anything, it will find its way to happen despite your efforts. I think Looper has some of both.

[@prodandmullen]

I just wrote a whole paper about this, and what you guys said is exactly what i talked about

[@moviehermit5631]

With Time Travel, I’ve just come to accept that the rules are constantly in flux. It’s people using what is essentially a force of nature without truly understanding it (we’re still not 100% sure how light operates, whether it’s a wave or a particle, but we still use it in our everyday lives). There will never be a simple explanation for time travel that encompasses all the rules

[@jayfolk]

if the wife dies in the future, why aren't they arrested immediately? - they are time traveling to get around that. if they cut off the legs of the runner to get him to return - how did he escape with no legs now?

[@gnuling296]

Great points. And how did he manage to use the gas pedal and suddenly not? And if Joe had been dead for decades how can everyone still remember what had happened? And for what reason would Joe have committed suicide then? And will the people from the Syndicate be alive again?

[@Kageofyoutube]

Its time travel guys its not supposed 2 make sense

[@gnuling296]

@@Kageofyoutube Wow, with that attitude you should be a writer. It's fiction. It's not supposed to make sense. *Everyone* is gonna love you. /s

[@Kageofyoutube]

@@gnuling296 gee thx

[@jayemel]

To me, the thing that makes the less sense is Joe's old friend in the future hunted by the Rainmaker which somehow got the numbers for Sid hospital register birth, decided to trust this important information to a retired looper who wasn't even fighting the Rainmaker before dying. And Joe somehow kept these numbers written in his hand even if he haven't lost his wife yet(sure he knew he was gonna get his loop ended and be returned to the past, but he certainly didn't expect his wife get killed which was his sole reason of going back). I mean you could said that Joe's friend probably had no one else to give that information as the Rainmaker probably had taken down the team and superior of that guy, but even so, is common knowledge that every looper returns to the past tied and ready to be killed, so that guy had to take a extremely lucky guess that Joe would survive being killed by his younger self and go after the Rainmaker.

[@jacobhovsepian8394]

The whole memory shit actually makes sense. The only part that didn’t is how the rainmaker is made. I’d assume the rainmaker is inevitable is someway, don’t forget he’s already tapped in the head cuz of “killing” his “mother”

[@Dockboy90]

This video is brilliant! I've been trying for a while to put my finger on why l still enjoy this story so much, despite the movie's convoluted time travel element

[@samuelgarcia98]

Wow! I watched the movie purely because of the thumbnail of this video and adding to your essay i found to be really amazing. Keep it up man!

[@TylerMowery]

+Sam thanks so much man!

[@U2m2]

Joe just because someone's stumbles and falls doesn't mean there lost forever

[@MTbone7]

My head's all tied up like a pretzel, I got a pretzel in my head!

[@Mister.Psychology]

This makes me feel better about my time travel feature script I finished a few days ago. Once I started thinking about what all the cool and interesting scenes actually implied I noticed that it had quite a few plot holes in it. Like decisions that didn't make sense character wise as there would be better and easier decisions to make for these characters. But on the other hand I needed the plot to be a certain way to work and be interesting. At the end I tried to explain away every single plot hole because I know that some people just lash on to any small plot hole and refuse to accept the rest of the movie/script after that. But my main goal is to entertain. I can't just remove the time travel just because it makes little sense. I just have to make the best of it and hope that both sides are satisfied. But there will for sure be someone who hates it for spending too much time explaining away plot holes or hates it for having too many small plot holes. It's about finding a good way to convey the story in a believable way.

[@mohamedkaram8094]

There is much theories about time , when we watch time travel movies or animes each one of them depends on one of these theories , this movies was actually believing that each person keep being connected to its past self and can have his memories or path changed if his past self changes ( similar theory in back to the futur ) , but we can see some other ones who believe that each point of time holds a distinct person , ( for example even if Jo killed himself his futur self wont be affected because he already had his path ( he is a distinct point )) , there is also another theory that we see ( like on attack on titan manga ) which says that each point of time holds a distinct person , but the causal loop will be never be broken ( for example Jo will kill his futur self everytime and this thing will never be changed and keep happening in a loop )

[@seanbarlow]

It's always fun to explain time travel paradoxes. Usually they're pretty simple, right? Good video.

[@harford07]

Is it ever confirmed in the movie that Old Joe actually creates the rain maker. I took it that it's left ambiguous so that it could either way.

[@TylerMowery]

+Leigh Harford in the film Old Joe early on casually mentions that the rainmaker 1. Has a prosthetic jaw (because Old Joe shot him 2. Saw his mother die (because Old Joe shoots her) That tells me that he is the cause, because that is way to specific to be coincidence in my opinion.

[@danb4900]

@@TylerMowery He suggests those are just rumours though, among possibly being female and crazy shit.

[@specialorder9379]

Ok, I firmly believe that Cid was a young Joe. I believe Joe grew up and was brought back with Abe which is how he ended up in that same time line. That’s how he sees what is about to unfold. It’s a memory of his that comes back to him.

[@omadayusjones6414]

Your summation was brilliant and spot on. I just rewatched this last night and it became more enjoyable on this repeat viewing in spite of its contradictions for the very reasons you state about becoming invested in the character arc of Joe. Thank you for this post.

[@ekathe85]

In other news: Terminator plot discovered to be just an overly complicated version of Naughty America's "My friend's hot mom"

[@androxus2954]

1. Question. Can the person who invented time machine travel back in time and just make another time machine? (because he obviously knows how to make one) 2. Is it possible to travel to future? (Talking about the movie of course )

[@richardbrout2242]

There is a solution that solves all contradictions/paradoxes. There are multi loops (effectively a multiverse). The young joes are all the identical up to the point just before the loop close. but the moment an Old joe transports back, the old Joe (can) jump to a different multiverse/time loop. We see this in the film in the loop Old Joe is from. But when he transports back, he in fact Doesn't travel back to his own past.. (that would be a paradox as he shot himself is in his pas... so he actually jumps to a parallel universe.. where the young Joe there is NOT himself as young Joe. What happens however, by him Jumping to that parallel universe he however DOES become temporally entangled in that universe's young Joe. Even though they are NOT from the original temporal universes, once old Joe "skips" into that universe they become locked together in a time loop. However what is fascinating.. is, it's very apparent in the movie, the REST of the universe they both share are NOT dependent on either of them! We see that when Joe kills himself it doesn't change the world. The boy was still shot, they still have memories of them. This means BOTH young and Old Joe's assumptions were BOTH wrong. Old Joe didn't create the rainmaker, and wouldn't have prevented his wife's death had he killed the child. You see the mother being killed in young Joe's imagination only and his theory was wrong. The rainmaker IS the boy but is not created by Joe but on his own in Original Old Joe's universe.

[@the1zeldafan609]

That is the intention: this is a common time paradox that lots of people like to use. It was used in The Legend of Zelda Ocarina of Time. In the story, Link travels seven years in the future by pulling the Master Sword out of its pedestal. Placing it back has him travel back 7 years in the past. As an adult, in the future, there is a windmill in a village. Inside the windmill, there is a man named... uh... Windmill Man. The Windmill Man tells you that the windmill has been broken since a young boy played a song on his ocarina, seven years ago. He teaches you the song that the boy played. Now, Link travels seven years back in time, goes to the very village he spoke to Windmill Man in so he can play the song in the windmill. Young Link is the catalyst for Windmill Man teaching the song to Adult Link, even though technically speaking, Young Link did not teach Windmill Man the song until after Windmill man teaches it to Adult Link. Pretty wierd, eh? This is pretty similar to what happens in this movie.

[@roninkelly6563]

So what you're saying is... Its a loop

[@the1zeldafan609]

@@roninkelly6563 y e s

[@the1zeldafan609]

@@roninkelly6563 oh, well, not necessarily. it's not going BACK to square one, it's going FORWARD to the event of square one. it's not a loop, each subsequent adult link for different timelines will be taught the song for the first time ALWAYS

[@alvisinger112]

Cool analysis. It could make sense if young Joe's assessment is wrong and the kid turns into the Rain Maker even when growing up with his mother. Making Joe's suicide for nothing. Still major questions about the cause and effect of time travel though.

[@gnuling296]

Exactly. It has to be this way for it to make sense. But the author disagrees as he said in an interview. He obviously didn't care enough to make the story logical. Another user had the idea that Joe killed himself to avoid being a part of the loop that he couldn't leave otherwise.

[@prismak7607]

It becomes complicated when the time travel can affect the original timeline. And usually the logic doesn't hold (or it's a mess like Primer). But in some movies the timeline is not affected by the time travel (Tenet, Timecrimes) and the time travel is part of the original timeline without this being altered. In this latter case, it works better but there are still paradoxes because the logic of the events becomes circular and it's not defined what is the root cause of the events (in Timecrimes for example, and I am doing a little spoiler now, the protagonist is forced to make a time travel by his alter ego travelling from the future).

[@kingdomcitizenship5613]

When old Joe's goes back in time, he shares the present time with young joe, therefore what young joe does becomes old Joe's memories. The future is a variable as long as they both exist in the present.

[@joshbrall8711]

Wow you broke that down perfectly!

[@andrewnichols7474]

I adore this movie, I really do, even with the holes. I believe the writers said they didn't follow the scientific model for time travel (obviously) not that there is one, other than speeding up. But you're right time travel in this movie is not even close to the main point. It's a self sacrifice story.

[@jimyu9147]

Really good analysis unlike any other videos.

[@RidgeR5]

How about how Joe tells about how he became a looper, that his mother was killed when he was a child and he took a train into the city where he met Abe and joined the mob? Which is what happens to Cid and makes him the Rainmaker. And what about Sara knowing what a looper was when Joe began to tell her about what was happening?

[@Chawachee]

I really think this movie should have been a two parter story. The first movie would revolve around young Joe after he closes his loop, we see his 30 years in Shanghai, about 3/4 of the way through the movie we get introduced to old Joe, movie ends with him getting zapped into the past, old Joe and young Joe have the stare down, roll credits. Then the second movie would be what we have, just with less flashbacks and flesh everything out a little more. Then if they wanted to do a trilogy, the third movie could be the new timeline and we see what happens to the kid and if Joe managed to change the overall outcome.

[@lionelalias4561]

"This movie doesn't make sense !" Ron Burgundy

[@dangoudreau7366]

No Time Travel movie ever makes sense. Not Avengers End Game either. None of it ever makes actual sense. Infinite universes get created but if every action has an infinite echo how can any action or any story matter? Ever? It's an even worse problem than the inability to die in a film. Time travel stories create an inability to care about anyone or any action at all since an infinite number of worlds where different actions happens and makes everything completely meaningless. Tyler, I really appreciate your boldness to point out the failings of Superhero Movies and Time Travel Movies. Shawshank Redemption might be the only Stephen King story to have no supernatural or super-abilities show up and it's probably his best. If he had forces a bit of it into the story like say Red is a Firestarter or he can fly or make 5 versions of himself can you imagine how bad Shawshank Redemption would be. He played the story straight (or the director did, I haven't read King's story). In the Green Mile I was enjoying it as a straight film but wait, someone has powers, so the realistic nature of the premise was shattered. I am almost surprised no one could kill someone with their mind in Shawshank. What made Stephen King tell one story where no powers showed up. It's like a lone island amongst king's body of work. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE Carrie, absolutely loved it. But as you say, there is more power in a human story tied to the real world with real stakes. Having said that, I am also writing a story where someone has powers. But one difference is despite breaking the reality to tell a fantastic tale, I'm attempting to keep the character as real and as able to die for good as we experience in the real world.

[@TheArchetypes]

Wow I've been binge watching your analysis videos. I love your channel and thorough analysis of great films. Also i love your voice :)

[@tylerdurden639]

Rule number one of Time Travel movies... If you use CAUSALITY, you can not have PARADOX!

[@ifigureditout999]

Answer: Rain Maker's mother's murder in the first Old Joe timeline was a random looper, the reason Old Joe disappears is because his source disappeared Timeline 1: Joe becomes a looper apart of a syndicate hit squad - Rain Maker starts making it rain from them kindenys (his mother is killed by a possible random looper) Old Joe goes back in time now he got to come on back Timeline 2: Enraged Old Joe gets away and almost makes a branch where he killed Sara Personally from the terminator like rebellion in that one scene where he got the numbers. Rainmaker and other TK users are probably being constantly targeted from the future timeline thanks to their infamy

[@AlanBrighto]

What doesn't make sense is why Joe can't use telekinesis anymore

[@Antartica1342]

I always considered it to be the grandfather paradox. Old joe was created, old joe went back in time to change the future, henceforth old joe couldn't have been created, henceforth old joe couldn't have gone back to change the future, henceforth old joe is created. And so on. After an what could have been endless loops the fabric of time said no more and needed to correct the paradox so it showed young joe what would happen so he could kill himself and end the loop. Hence why the movie is called Looper. Its a paradoxical time loop

[@karendenby9235]

I love this movie despite all it's flaws.

[@evm6177]

🍷 Agreed 👍

[@ututut77]

i don’t think the movie ever proposes multiple streams of time. it only proposes one stream of time that is affected by the past. even the diner scene when old joe speaks of cloudy memories, i think is just a reference to how his memory is being altered by young joe’s actions.

[@dinesh93626]

I guess yu dont have the capability to think beyond this.... Actually it makes sense ... But i can't really put it through with words ....its just multiple timelines are dependent upon each other.. lets see if yu could understand this... The single time line gets splitted into two time lines where in one of which the young joe kills his older self and on the other line he doesn't kill his older self.... So until that point the time line hasn't been splitted.....so once when he comes back to that exact point.. they both are currently in a third time line which is newly created when he comes back and makes changes from that exact point of the time line where the previously split up two time lines are....... . Got it??..

[@4mynickname4]

One thing i understood about time travel in this film is that in the moment you've travelled in the past from the future, this action of travelling is now in the past of the present and the current you from the future gets for example the wounds of his younger behalf simultanously as they're made, even if these wounds, or actions, could've changed the past of the future guy. It's a little tricky and unlogic but they set this rule and they followed it, so i'm okay with that. But yeah i enjoyed the film even if there's lack of explanation about multiple time-lines and lack of consistency in the delevopment of the future Joe that seem's having is own memories after all, even though the past is changing. Another thing that make few sense is the fact that editor of the film choosed to show us in first place the scene of Joe escaping from his younger self and after the scene in wich the youger Joes closes the loop. It's maybe good for narrating the story but it's chronologically wrong.

[@carbon-dim7993]

I've had to struggle with that question for years,how loose can any story be in its consistency before it hinders the enjoyment and investment from your audience(?) Your answer in this video is great! Thank you

[@jc-kj8yc]

Tbh I don't see a breaking of rules here. Sid didn't "become" the rainmaker because of old Joe. He already killed before. What actually turned him into the monster of the future is never revealed. Young Joe's actions change old Joe's memory consistently during the movie. And it was very graphically shown at the beginning of the movie that physical injury affects the older self. So old Joe disappearing made sense within the rules of the movie.

[@GiornoGiovana]

but shouldn't have the earlier example dissapeared when he got his legs and arms chopped off, but that didn't happen, he was still there so old joe's body should just have been a corpse.

[@aiden2406]

@@GiornoGiovana they kept him alive whilst cutting him up you can see the surgeon after he shoots him

[@GiornoGiovana]

@@aiden2406 but he still lost his body parts , the moment he lost his legs he should have just dissapeared,

[@no81wareagle37]

@@GiornoGiovana the guy who was being dismembered was still alive therefore he wouldnt disappear

[@GiornoGiovana]

@@no81wareagle37 but there's no way the future form of him would still be there, there's no way he would've been able to get away when he went back in time if his legs were chopped off. If the old joe getting erased means that every opportunity of him being there would be zero wouldn't the same apply to the other guy with no fucking legs. If the old joe just became a corpse or just dropped dead rather than dissapearing then maybe the argument wouldn't be like this. But unfortunetly rather than having it make sense the person who wrote this went for the more dramatic ending which kind of contradicts what we had seen before, which was meant to show us the consequences and rules of time travel.

[@bradenmeyer7465]

I was expecting this video to be longer. I feel this movie didn’t get enough coverage. I enjoyed it very much.

[@JustMe-qp7if]

Old joe remember what young joe does because his memory keeps changing (3:03) And yes you are right on the case of rainmaker, if old joe lives his life fully being a looper in the past then at that time why did reinmaker even existed.

[@rafetizer]

The only conclusion I can come to (aside from time travel is impossible to sort out precisely) is that Cid becomes the rainmaker from someone else's actions on the first trip through the loop. Perhaps an armed vagrant, or trigger-happy gat man on an unrelated plotline. It wouldn't even have to be the exact same time, just somewhere close enough to make a difference. I think the script needed a little more revision to tighten up the plot a bit, but they either didn't have the time or everyone melted their brains and just gave up. Really, the sci-fi elements are there for aesthetics and to set up the emotional dilemmas. (Seth shitting the bed; Joe shitting the bed; old Joe killing kids to avert a future crisis; exploring the idea of influences during a child's developmental years; and of course, Joe's ultimate sacrifice)

[@jaxoncooper3354]

Okay, here's my theory. I think it's consistent and this was always the path until one scene. Old Joe as young Joe does in fact complete his contract and live his life life no matter what. Even young Joe killing himself doesn't change that. The big turning point is when young Joe decides to stay and protect the kid instead of taking the gold from old Joe. I think that this "Circle" has happened plenty times before and young Joe killing him self didn't break it, deciding to run after himself in that field did. Every other time the circle ran like normal because young Joe didn't get the opportunity to recognize the loop (because in everyother timeline he took the gold like he did when Seth's life was on his hands)And him committing suicide sent old Joe back to his normal timeline safely resetting him in a universe without the rainmaker and continuing life as normal. I don't know if that made sense

[@jaxoncooper3354]

Actually I do k owing that this made sense and it follows the films characterisation of Joe and how he valued money over friends. Basically the timelime is unchanged by old Joe surviving the beginning, he just creates a paradox that gets broken by the end and his time becomes a Jeremy Bearimy type shit

[@Jerbear6908]

I always thought that he was all 3 people and he killed himself so that the mother could go on to change the overall destiny of himself while ending 2 timelines to save his first one

[@cashflodigitalsportsnetwork]

Jeremy Barker somehow I thought that too but couldn’t understand or explain why

[@WhytyProd]

Damn that makes the scene when Joe and Sara bang way hotter

[@dayking7950]

what 3 people are you talking about?

[@Jerbear6908]

DAY KING well Bruce Willis, is old version, Joseph love Everett is 20s version, and the child is him when he was a child. When he talked about him being a child all he remembered was the train. That’s how he became a gangster. He killed his 20s self to make his older self not exist destroying 2 timelines so the younger version would have his mother giving both of them better life’s through the child version

[@TheFinalBoss726]

I've liked some of your videos, but this one not so much. It feels like the whole point of the video was to say if a movie is good enough, it doesn't matter if it breaks its own rules... But why? Should we just not care because a movie has a compelling story? What about a movie that has a really intricate universe and strict rules that it never breaks, but doesn't have that compelling of a story? I feel like this video isn't that necessary because in reality, the best movies seem to be ones that accomplish both. Or are there examples of excellent movies that only have a compelling story but breaks its own rules? (I don't count looper, because although I have only seen it once, I didn't enjoy it, and don't know of many people who praise it as an excellent movie.)

[@man2.071]

Stickler for rules

[@monkeymaniac8269]

I think Old Joe put it the best in the diner once Young Joe started asking questions: “It doesn’t matter!” Just appreciate the story you were given and turn your brain off from the parts that you don’t need to think about. Time travel is used like a story device, no more no less, same as the Rainmakers telekinesis. It could’ve just made him really smart or give him some super powerful gun, it doesn’t matter. Just watch the movie and enjoy it, and if you can’t, you can’t, end of story.

[@richardlandgraf1953]

I dont think its necessarily a contradiction, not in terms of one timeline vs multiple, but that a person placed earlier in the timeline then intended can lead to contradictions in his mind, his own memories fighting with his new. We see this when he first gets memories of Emily Blunt's character. He holds the picture of his wife tightly and fights to remember the night he first met her.

[@gaylecheung3087]

Does make sense when the together their memories sync when they’re not together is a different story because there’s not that kind of togetherness a separate timeframe even though it’s a different time you know - Enjoyable movie, must watch!

[@TheThesassysisters]

regardless of how old Joe's timeline will still kill him in 30 years because there's no possible way for that timeline to exist without doing so - the fact that the rainmaker doesn't exist anymore is what enables that timeline to happen in the first place. The main difference between the two is that when he leaves to complete the loop - no one will kill his wife.

[@DylanWintersteen]

The OG guy that killed his mom was the vagrant that young joe scares off. I watched this last night and the tangent begins when his friend fails to end his loop so young joe looses his only friend and it changes his destiny so that he meet his future wife and ends up going back to try to save her. Remember that this all started with a song sang to a child by his mother which is a primary theme in the story.

[@pippobaudo9925]

i'm not the first saying this probably, but i think its simply a loop, there is a time strain where joe kills his older self ( he was about to) thus creating the rainmaker either way, and the next one where joe simply closes his loop, joe decided to break the loop by killing himself, i think it kinda makes sense

[@Tuna21100]

I think I figured it out, but would be more than happy to be proven wrong. There is the first loop, of young joe killing his future self, living out his life, and then meeting his wife. This timeline means joe never meets the kid on the farm. Old joe talks about theories of the rainmaker early in the film, one being the kid saw his mother die. It’s established in the film though that until the end, the kid does not consider his mother to be his actual mother. So he still believe his “real” mother died, thus starting his crime Lord uprising as a powerful being all alone in the world. Therefore, when the original joe goes back in time to kill the rainmaker, he actually does cause the kid to never become the rainmaker, as his actions of trying to kill cause the boy to discover his true mother as they are running through the fields, thus never seeing his mother die, as long as young joe kills himself before old joe kills the mother. Complicated, but it makes sense in my head lol

[@HustleWorldEnt1]

Actually the entire plot of this movie did make sense, older Joe remembered most of everything younger Joe had done ! But once young Joe hurt himself he'll he remember clearly how that injury came on! Looper is a great movie, looking forward to a part 2 soon

[@andrewjimenez3852]

There is not gonna be a part 2

[@randomthoughts2607]

All the themes you mentioned yes are great but why use a complicated story element like time travel which will create plot holes ? Not sure if "your not supposed to think about it" is that good a defense. By that logic you can go out of your way to make plot contradictions just to have an emotional scene.