Lord Colin Renfrew | Marija Redivia: DNA and Indo-European Origins

Presented by Lord Colin Renfrew, Senior Fellow of the McDonald Institute for Archaeological Research, former Disney Professor of Archaeology and Director of the McDonald Institute, University of Cambridge.
Introductory comments by Dr. Audrius V. Plioplys.
This Marija Gimbutas Memorial Lecture was generously organized and sponsored by Drs. Audrius and Sigita Plioplys.
Marija Rediviva: DNA and Indo-European Origins
Marija Gimbutas had a detailed knowledge of the archaeology of prehistoric Europe and of the cultures of ‘Old Europe’ with their rich iconography of goddesses and gods, which she viewed as overwhelmed at the onset of the Bronze Age by the Kurgan invasion, an incursion of a new population from the East European steppe lands, north of the Black Sea. This she saw as the key impetus which brought Old Europe to an end, and which introduced to Europe a new population speaking early Indo-European languages.
The first Memorial Lecture will offer a critical review of the question of Indo-European language origins, and will highlight the contribution of one of the leading prehistorians of the twentieth century.
To become a member of the Institute for the Study of Ancient Cultures, please visit: bit.ly/2AWGgF7

[@MrLee-gj2jz]

The life and times of Marija Gimbutas deserves a Netflix series / Hollywood movie.

[@viisaus7187]

no because she is completely delusional and irrational

[@lewieh101]

From the mind of Marija Gimbutas! So cool to see her insights being vindicated through archeogenetics several decades after her death.

[@TarebossT]

Except the fact that ancient farmers were NOT peaceloving ...

[@TheRealFlenuan]

Except for the fact that Renfew's model is completely unrelated to hers…

[@37Dionysos]

@@TarebossT Help us out with some info showing such a decisive statement.

[@bojanstare8667]

@@TarebossT How do you know that? If they have defended themselves it isn`t proof for that claim. Ussually they are peacefull, because they don`t have time to fight. Just wariors have enough time to willing figthing.

[@jamesking1495]

@@bojanstare8667 you think early farmers were peaceful? Biased thinking leads to vain pride.

[@williamriser6547]

I just discovered this lady today. I watched a two hour lecture by her and it was amazing. I wish I could have asked her however how close the Slavic pagan beliefs and festivals are to the original pre Indo European people.

[@RaduFunk]

Read her book, The Living Goddess, it talks at some lenght about both ancient and surviving pre-indo-european beliefs. It's very well written and also has a lot of great illustrations.

[@margaretwebster2516]

I just wish they'd stop using the term Indo European.

[@zatoka08]

@@margaretwebster2516 What should be used instead?

[@locutusmdv]

To see and hear Colin Renfrew is a privilege... and it is very interesting to learn about Gimbutas' ideas being corroborated by ancient DNA research. Great lecture!!!

[@APsupportsTerrorism]

He spends an inordinate amount of time on outdated theories. We know the Anatolian farmers displaced the hunter-gatherers -- almost completely in some areas. This was dawn of the Copper Age. And we also know the Yamnaya invaded on top of them at the dawn of the Bronze Age. The Yamnaya were themselves descended from admixture with the Anatolian farmers... and the way their genetics infiltrated other groups (Euro and India) was not as straightforward. Their genetic material spread almost exclusively through males. Also known as the y chromosome bottleneck. Nearly all non-Yamnaya men from these areas have no living descendants. They stopped procreating. But the non-Yamnaya women did continue having descendants. This leads to curious things like Spain having "only" 20% Yamnaya ancestry, and the largest % of Anatolian farmer (from both the original Anatolian and their admixture within Yamnaya) ... however, 80% of the men living together can trace their DNA to the Yamnaya. 85% of Irish males and 50% of German males can trace their y dna to 1 single dude, who we know was Yamnaya. That is how wildly successful the male Yamnaya reproduced. The only logical conclusion is that the local men were either enslaved and not permitted to procreate, or killed. While the Yamnaya men took all the local women into harems -- estimated to average 17 women each. This is the founding of European, Iranian, and Indian cultures. It explains a lot imo. We're descended from extremely violent sociopaths.

[@veronicalogotheti1162]

Irish and Germans are not indoeuropeans

[@shafur3]

Thank You for sharing. May she RIP as we the living admire her.

[@julee0]

For a lecture about Marija and her legacy there is scant about her in there...at the beginning, a few scatterings in the middle and a little at the end!! We just get an overview of Renfrew and his colleagues confusing theories and as if her theory of invasion was the key thing in her work!! Okay the new DNA evidence makes her theory of this news but its supposed to be a lecture in memoriam of her! How about someone addressing her interdisciplinary abilities, her boldness in seeing geometric pattern as language ( like modern graphic designers do), her giving keen focus to this neglected area of archaeology.

[@Suedwind2011]

Yes. And also nearly unbearable to listen to this lecture...

[@currencylad7125]

As a long-term student and supporter of Gimbutas' work on the cultures of Old Europe, I have to agree. Her work on the Kurgan hypothesis (and its implications for the spread of Indo-European) was really just an adjunct in the negative to her primary interest in the Goddess based cultures which they displaced. Nevertheless, it was refreshing to hear that an old stick-in-the-mud like Lord Renfrew can still, at least partially, revise his ideas based on new evidence.

[@alexdunphy3716]

Ted is right. There is evidence that the Neolithic European Farmer civilization/s were not peaceful and not even matrilineal as genetic research has shown that women were not buried in the villages they grew up in but males often were, indicating patri-local societies where inheritance was passed down to sons and women married into other villages

[@dickdrapper5491]

@@alexdunphy3716 The idea of matrilineal societies among human groups doesn't make any sense in general for a million reasons. Most of it seems to be politics driven, placing present day understanding of "women power! you go girl!" into the past to give it a foundation.

[@aaron.aaron.v.b.9448]

It's a memorial lecture. They are in general very loosely connected to the person. This lecture is actually much of an exception in how close it is related to Gimbutas' work.

[@able421]

The intro by Dr. Audrius V. Plioplys is very nice.

[@richardlinter4111]

Love how the title says "Marija Redivia" ( = Marija's remnant, or Marija the hangnail) rather than "Marija Rediviva" ( = Marija brought back to life).

[@richardlinter4111]

@@simonzigentyler7664 : It is one translation of the word "redivia". This springs from a mistake by the person who created the title "Marija Redivia". What they had in mind was almost certainly "Marija Rediviva".

[@magasverlag]

@@richardlinter4111 a "mistake" in the title? what kind of scholar is Colin Renfrew?

[@dorianphilotheates3769]

Colin Renfrew: a scholar and a gentleman.

[@ezzovonachalm7534]

Lord Colin Renfrew !

[@dorianphilotheates3769]

Ezzo von Achalm - Yes. I knew the bloke when he was plain old Colin.

[@gautambasu3571]

Thank you, sir.

[@susanmcdonald6879]

Thank you for this fabulous lecture & for sharing it freely as well as the fabulous comments below; I find most inspiring the story of Marija Gimbutas' & her treatment from academia most fascinating; reminds me of the little credit/burdens on "Mrs. Einstein" who had difficulties completing her phd in physics even finding a school to accept her, but ended up raising their children, alone, & Einstein giving her his Nobel prize money (NOVA program), but also the biochemist who provided Crick & Watson their proof of the DNA molecule.... but on the positive side, the fact that Western Civilization tends to be able to critically look at itself, & have certainly more freedoms to examine itself, debate, make contemptuous errors but also profound changes, is something we should all honor, cherish, & protect! So I sincerely thank you and your commentators for a most wonderful, acute lecture of astonishing information & awareness on many levels, thank you Oriental Institute & introductory speaker!

[@mg1phelps]

Einstein may have treated his wife poorly, but there is zero convincing evidence of any discrimination against her as a scientist. See Allen Esterton for thorough review of evidence.

[@susanmcdonald6879]

women couldn't get their phd's in most German universities & you claim no prejudice? why did Albert give her all his money from winning the nobel prize to her after they were divorced?, out of guilt? The "evidence" is that she took notes for him because he skipped so many of his classes & that they "discussed" physics all the time; she was more current on the new things going on in physics...I will check out the work you mention, but still, there is plenty of evidence that she may have had enormous influence on his thinking & his theories. but as is normal, your take on it, as well as possibly Mr. Esterton's, you mention, is full of prejudicial thoughts, normal for most males, even scientists & historians....the times they lived in especially, that's everything, and prejudice WAS dominant!!! And what of Cricks & Watts, also big boys who won nobel prizes, but forgot the woman chemist who was responsible for PROVING those two scientists's theories about DNA, again, no credit whatsoever, and historians are reexamining that case as well. If you think there has been no prejudice, you are yourself, looking the other way & refusing to see out of your own blindness....

[@peterfireflylund]

@@susanmcdonald6879 You are also wrong about Watson and Cricks. The picture they saw wasn't even made by Rosalind Franklin. Besides, she was dead when the Nobel Prize was handed out.

[@drivinsouth651]

@@mg1phelps "Relativity" was Mrs. Einsteins; discrimination is why she needed Albert to sell it. Not many if anybody was gonna listen to a woman try and explain E=mc2, lol!

[@dorasmith7875]

It did my heart good to listen to the tale of how Ms. Gimbutas was treated as well.

[@gin1740]

history was written by men, historians kept it male for a very long time. Marija Gimbutas was a pioneer. I have read several of her books and she show how women were just as vital to humanities grow as men.

[@magasverlag]

His-Story ist still written by men. I'm sorry, but Marija Gimbutas' importance is not restored by this lecture. There is more to be done to show her amazing work!

[@gin1740]

Absolutely!

[@37Dionysos]

Elaine Morgan also endured such hateful ignorant treatment from "the professionals" and now her views are proving out over theirs. See David Attenborough's program here on Morgan's "aquatic ape."

[@shreenathchaudhary8166]

The language on Asok piller is not in sanskrit but in Pali.

[@fragranceofsound]

Thank you

[@jimpalmer2981]

Fascinating lecture by a brilliant man doing important work, and all I could think is, "Gosh, he sounds like Hugh Grant."

[@zipperpillow]

Jim, you drank the cool-aid. Good boy.

[@jimpalmer2981]

@@zipperpillow Sooo… either he doesn’t sound like Hugh Grant, or he’s not doing important work? Your attempt at irony’s a little gnomic.

[@mike89128]

Lord Renfrew really did a slap down of Harvard in his opening remarks.

[@xtusvincit5230]

Maybe he is embarrassed by the fact that the least capable Harvard graduate has a far greater command of the English language than he.

[@u.v.s.5583]

48:10 is another nice instance of this phenomenon.

[@94Auburn]

@@xtusvincit5230 From your comments it seems both of you are criticizing the gentleman who gave the introduction, not Colin Renfrew.

[@NeborodVinchanski]

He skipped over the DNA part, but at least he is honest about the full story. Haplogroup I is ancient European and corresponds to Gimbutas's Old Europe, encompassing Vinča, Lepenski Vir and Starčevo. He never even mentioned Vinča!!! HG I has been in Europe since the last Ice Age, 10,000BC, well before the Anatolian migration. Renfrew never mentioned this.

[@Jimmylad.]

Who are the Gumbutas and vinca lepenski

[@NeborodVinchanski]

@@Jimmylad. Marija Gimbutas, archaeologist. Vinča, Lepenski Vir, Starčevo are European Neolithic civilisations.

[@Jimmylad.]

@@NeborodVinchanski ah and but they were overrun by Indo Europeans right?

[@NeborodVinchanski]

@@Jimmylad. correct, but better call them Indo-Aryans. Original Europeans were Neolithic, but it depends how far back in time you go. Aryans come from Iran, the Land of the Aryans. Neolithic Europeans in 10,000BC were mainly homogeneous with haplogroup I* and lived in the Balkans, Iberia and S Ukraine. You can fact check it, but that is my understanding!

[@ayzikdig1983]

@@NeborodVinchanski from david reich research i understood the neolithic europe is admixture of native forager and levnatian farmers

[@jonmars9559]

Interesting lecture that adds to my understanding of the history. The long struggles to understand the origins of Indo European as a language group has ultimately led to greater understanding of the peopling of Europe and western Eurasia. Renfrew continues to be stuck on Anatolia as a significant source of something though he's seems confused as to how to frame it. Years ago when learning of the Indo European argument, I did lean towards Renfrew's Anatolian argument because there was excellent evidence for the Neolithic farming migration and impacts on ancient Europe. Neolithic farming in Europe had its origins in Anatolia so it stood to reason that Indo European was spread from Anatolia during that time. Today with ancient DNA evidence, it is clear that Indo European has Steppe origins, just how and why these mass Yamnaya migrations took place is still in question. It seems after the initial mass Steppe migrations, near entire Neolithic populations in Northern Europe were replaced. Whether by military campaigns or by the onset of plague, the early migrations of Yamnaya were complete genetic replacements. Later, movements by the descendants of the first migrations tended to be more genetic mergings with the local Neolithic populations. Bell Beaker populations spread out across Western Europe have a strong genetic and cultural Steppe component while also having a strong Neolithic farmer component. Eventually nearly all modern European populations have a mix of Neolithic farmer, early hunter gatherer and Steppe ancestry with varying ratios. Unraveling the specifics should prove intriguing for years to come.

[@heresysmith4068]

Geography. Western China, which was populated by kilt wearing whites, back then, turned desert. That population resembles Irish and Scott in their woven kilt patterns; so, it may be that they left that area and may have fought or migrated west.

[@heresysmith4068]

@@vahekrikorian3581 I am not sure of the spelling, but I think so. Here is a video about some of it. kzbin.info/www/bejne/jZu8oZqempaVecU

[@martonjuhasz1544]

on the contrary, the latest researches indicate the anatolian hypothesis to be true. interdisciplinary studies indicate strongly that the origin of the uralic languages was sredny stog which was replaced by indo-european languages, then again replaced by uralic (ugric, to be specific) and then turkic, finally indo-european again. there is simply no room for more speculation about it, it is crystal clear.

[@karinschultz5409]

Agree that Renfrew is still stuck on Anatolia. Personally, I think it's a red herring as the discovery of Gobekli Tepe puts a different spin on the "agriculture-settlement model which underlies Renfrew's hypothesis. Gobekli Tepe indicates a settlement of some sort, but no evidence of farming. As for the Yamnaya incursions into Europe, being a steppe culture, they would be constantly on the move to better grazing pastures. The problem is that Germany at around 5000 BC is a temperate rainforest and marshland, not really suited to grazing horses or using carts for transportation. Seems to me, that as Neolithic peoples cut down these forests to clear land for cultivation, it was easier for the Yamnaya to migrate into central Europe along river valleys. I don't see one mass migration, but a constant incoming wave of migrants. What would be interesting is to look at evidence of climate change and see if this correlates to Yamnaya migrations and the Neolithic data. Interestingly, there is a site in northern Germany dated to around 3000 BC which showed a massive slaughter had taken place. As I recall there was evidence of a few horse bones. I wonder if this may be proof of a Yamnaya invasion?

[@kevin6293]

Karin Schultz, is this what you’re referring to? www.pnas.org/content/116/22/10705 They’re people from the Globular Amphora culture and they were probably massacred by people from the corded ware culture.

[@barker3877]

What an amazing woman was Marija Gimbutas. I wonder how many bright & scientifically minded women today on our planet are discriminated against, just because of their Gender.

[@patshelby9285]

Men and women have different approaches and takes on things. Enough to amplify discovery and make it well worth while to have both working on every subject we wish to understand. To use only one gender is much like insisting gathering sensory data by the use of only one hand, one ear and one eye. We look for and note different aspects of studies. Those open to examining the different views see things they otherwise miss. One of the best illustrations of different approaches bearing fruit is that of Jane Goodall's study of chimpanzees. I had read all that I could find written on them and other animals for years before she began her studies. The difference between her observations and those of the men who preceded her is mind numbing. Mostly because their approach was totally different as was everything they drew from it which seemed to be concentrated on the male hierarchy and the tactics used to achieve power.

[@davidhuddart5642]

Excellent

[@PaybackisaMan]

DNA is the KEY!!!!

[@poltergeistfm]

lecture starts at 05:35

[@seeingimages]

Historian Richard Bulliet argues that Danubian culture was as large and well-developed as those in Egypt and the Levant around 5,000 BCE: "History of the World to 1500 CE (Session 1) - Introduction to World History." See his lecture of that title here on Y T.

[@bredmond812]

He also wrote a novel. If you email him he will probably give you a copy.

[@Jimmylad.]

@@bredmond812 what’s his email?

[@bredmond812]

@@Jimmylad. [e-mail] . He's not available to chat though. But if you want to get a coolly of his book, he will send you one.

[@thinkingaboutreligion2645]

This was so interesting.

[@theknave4415]

Steppe/Kurgan, Anatolian, genetics, archaeology, et al, all offer parts of the answer, but I don't believe a single one of these theories have *all* of the answers, by itself. imo, there are serious problems with each of these theories. iow, we need a new theory. :) A theory that doesn't rely upon linear, uniformitarianism, but accepts a more complex ancient environment, socially, culturally and technologically.

[@Adammrtl27]

A new theory! Excellent!.. Anyone have any ideas?

[@thomasmills3934]

Ur just not likely to ever have the definitive theory that you are looking for...

[@topg2820]

OIT is there too, but it's not complete as well, we do need a new theory joining all the points from the different theories together

[@johnd2550]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/bpnRhmOmgsSLmcU

[@markbcrich]

Set the playback speed to 1.25. It is much easier to listen to that way. You will see. :)

[@Adammrtl27]

Lol yup, fixed that issue.

[@veronika1533]

Thanks for the tip:)

[@120201atta]

Yup its perfect! 🤣

[@FromNothingICome]

I listen to most stuff (non music) on KZbin somewhere between 1.5x and 2x. Some people speak *ssooooo* slow... Rarely will I find someone too fast at 1.5. Once in a while. 2x isn't bad for this one. lol

[@manfredamann137]

It is amasing that a Lithuanian became a pioneer of Indoeuopean hypothesis.

[@mambojambo4870]

There is no better fit

[@chet1921]

@@mambojambo4870 why?

[@mattkiraly9869]

@@chet1921 because her native language has some of the best preserved archaic features of the language of those settlers she studied. :)

[@Ariapeithes_]

@@mattkiraly9869 As someone who is studying Old Irish and Welsh, I can tell you the Celtic languages have a lot of archaic features also, and Lithuanian by no means is the only or best language. Older Ogam inscriptions for example has just as many archaisms surviving from PIE like inflectional endings and the word for "four" in both in Insular Celtic and Continental Celtic languages like Gaul. _petuar-_ , Cymr: _pedwar_ , OIr. _cethair_ are derivatives of the PIE _*k.w.etuores_ ...

[@iancorrie7043]

This lady was a true scholar,which is probably why they hid her in a basement.Thanks for posting.

[@goldensunspiral]

Yes, sad

[@aaron.aaron.v.b.9448]

In all fairness it did probably not help that she was following a very unfashionable approach in explaining the spread of Indoeuropean languages. With large parts of the world switching to European languages without major migrations, a theory that linked language change to mass migration looked rather naive. Furthermore as people started to look into the phenomenon of language change, it revealed itself to be rather frequent, if not even the norm. Even worse, an assumed inherent link between language and the biological make up of its speakers lay at the core of the National Socialist race policy and the holocaust. Who's majority of victims were incidentally speakers of a Germanic language. That she got her phd from a German university did probably not help either. She obviously did not idealize early Indoeuropean speakers. But there remained probably, at least with some, the assumption that she was too much immersed in an outdated explanatory model. This does not mean that she did not face misogyny. Also she was for sure a hero just keeping on her work under this circumstances (I, in her place, would have given up a long time ago and write learned comments on youtube). However, on should understand that some of her critics had very good reason not to agree with her their own.

[@bookmankdw8669]

600bce Around this time Prakrit were the languages spoken by common people in northern south Asia and Sanskrit related Persian language by the haxàmanisha dynasty of Persia.

[@hasmikvardan4703]

I highly recommend reading David Reich’s book.

[@monikagrosch9632]

My main problem with the Anatolia hypothesis always was the crossing of the Hellespont: a very tricky strait. Not very wide but with strong currents.

[@VeniVidiVandaliAuz]

@observation account The Steppe Theory has genetic evidence supporting it you pillock.

[@tarjei99]

The beaker people seems to be located along trade routes. That will explain the discontinuty.

[@dorasmith7875]

It does help explain the discontinuity. There is a lot not understood about the beaker people. They seem to have moved in small groups. (I'm sure the reptile and his ilk calls them insignificant little peasants.) However history's greatest mass migrations such as the Scotch Irish migration to the United States moved in small groups. DNA research makes it clear they substantially supplanted the DNA of the places they moved into with DNA from the Asian steppes; they were often as successful at it as the corded ware people to the north. You telling me the reptile above is coughing up whatever he can find to attack the "position" that the Indo-Europeans came from the steppes? (Kind of like the "theory" of evolution). What a surprise.

[@binoybhusanari1703]

To all friends, James Prinsep an English scholar decoded the inscriptions of Ashokan pillar in 1837, what we now call Brahmi/ DHAMMA script not ancient Sanskrit. There is no ancient Sanskrit inscriptions available before Christ.

[@sureshnair9427]

- one never knows - if written systems were written on palm leaves or any degradable material - it is highly unlikely such written material would have survived - it could very well be that ashoka was the among the first Kings to engrave script in stone - though written systems in degradable material were current during that time and probably earlier too - one never knows

[@kamion53]

interesting point about the Minoans and the Mycenaeans could be that their genetic relation also indicate a linguistic relation and that the unknown Minoan language might have been and ancienct Greek one.

[@patshelby9285]

That seems a likely possibility.

[@chrisnewbury3793]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/hpqvqoFviZemqrs

[@alecpayne18]

The one thing that came to my mind was this; hittite and other IE languages in anatolia are the earliest recorded due to their proximity to other civilizations with writing, but it doesn't mean that they are older. Of course, he knows this, and his point about ancient anatolian DNA is a good one. I just don't understand how the dates between the IE steppe migration and use of chariots and horse warfare do not coincide... how could the IE nomads replace the population without horse warfare, I think horse warefare must be far older than 1200 bc, probably 4,000 bc...

[@alexdunphy3716]

I think I have a partial answer to your question. To take advantage of horses, one doesn't necessarily need to ride them into battle or have them pull chariots. There is evidence of horse back riding back to 3000bc or more(if I remember correctly) which would allow warriors to ride into the combat zone, dismount (like dragoons), fight on foot and then retreat/make off with spoils of war and the enemy wouldn't be able to do anything about it. The war chariot was definitely in use prior to 2000bc with Indo-Europeans since we find them in graves from around 2000bc, and they had wheeled vehicles for much longer prior to that. Even if the technology isn't developed enough to use in combat for tactical mobility(though there is some indication that it was present) it was certainly advanced enough to grant them a strategic mobility advantage

[@Fuk99999]

Chariot is only one advantage. Diet and skill set are another. The indo European diaspora were very much battle starved, and likely developed the skills needed as they spread. Add on their largely meat and dairy diets, and they had a nutritional advantage over the people they came across.

[@haugenmartin9295]

He says Kurgan immigration was 2300-2000 BC, but that Yamnays' wandering was 3000-4000 BC (evidenced by DNA), - hence the former dating is wrong if they are the same population.

[@dorasmith7875]

The timing of the Kurgan migration keeps moving around. It also appears to have happened in stages. To listen to some versions of it you'd wonder who the 3500 wave of shaft hole battle axe people could possibly have been.

[@vanderdole02]

lol eurasia is rather big...they walked or rode horses and oxweagons… they were nomads…. they were not traveling in jumbojets back than...

[@dorasmith7875]

Yamnaya / Indo Europeans, may have been exactly the same group, maybe not, wandered within a set parameter that slowly expanded across the Pontic Steppe over time. There also seems to be disagreement about when they began to move past some kind of boundary immediately west of the Black Sea. Also, they can't estimate DNA that closely.

[@haugenmartin9295]

@Kurotetsu Be proud of what? Who cares about some ignorant Aryans, we all are from Africa, where man began. Can you give a source to prove what you say, that the Y./Kurgans called themselves Aryans? I didn't think so!

[@yanikkunitsin1466]

11:13 - "steppes of the Caucasus"? Seriously?

[@marceloorellana5726]

Why is that odd to you? The steppe begins at the foot of the Caucasus mountains.

[@yanikkunitsin1466]

@@marceloorellana5726 Caucasus is mountain range, so it's not steppe by definition. Flatlands to the North are called Pontic-Caspian steppe(in historicography, or part East European plain in geological terms). "Steppes of the Caucasus" makes no sense

[@Sean-uu8wz]

You can say steppes of the caucasus to describe the pontic caspian steppe

[@yanikkunitsin1466]

@@Sean-uu8wz revisiting recently Renfrew's "Prehistory" I noticed some western authors even position kurgans in the source of Don/Tanais in "North Caucasus" witch is imbecelic beyond belief. How can an author writing an article about prehistoric sites in Eastern Europe not make himself familiar with elementary geographical boundaries is just... I don't know... shows level of understanding of the subject matter and should be unacceptable in academics. Not to mention reviewers.

[@mattkiraly9869]

It's great to see Gimbutas vindicated with DNA evidence. She is one of the great scholars of the 20th century and even though her Old Europe theories aren't exactly the most evidence-based ones (rather, they are based on absence of evidence), I wonder if they too deserve a re-assessment or a revision, instead of outright rejection.

[@mattkiraly9869]

@@descendedofrigvedicclans2216 Even though we are commenting this on a lecture where a mean who disagreed with her said that she had a point that is now verified by DNA evidence as well?

[@mattkiraly9869]

@@descendedofrigvedicclans2216 I'm not following the field as much as you are, can you give me a reference to some papers that I can find on that? It would be very interesting to read.

[@VeniVidiVandaliAuz]

@@descendedofrigvedicclans2216 Lol, keep coping Pa jeet.

[@WilAdams]

Good report, but with one major flaw. The absence of evidence is not evidence of absences. When he points out the lack of ancient DNA from Anatolia as a flaw, that is wrong. There are many places where evidence is available but not addressed herein. I suggest you look into videos by Robert Sephre. He shows more clear evidence.

[@johnd2550]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/bpnRhmOmgsSLmcU

[@franceleeparis37]

Agriculture was not the main reason for population growth and the spread of languages …. It was trade. When early Hunter gatherers realised that they could exchange some things with other tribes they began to use this method to spread further and further away from their home

[@ianmarshall9144]

Well I should imagine if your a hunter gatherer then you are limited somewhat by the natural resources and the environment and climate , surely population growth is harder for the hunter gatherer than that of an agricultural system that can produce surplus and free up time in the society to develop its culture . I think the spread of language would have taken many forms , original with the first wave of human that moved into Europe , then any later migrations , then when we settle down and farming / city state / empire building become the norm , language is then more or less adopted or forced on cultures .

[@franceleeparis37]

@@ianmarshall9144 nope… we are looking at ancient times from a modern point of view.. there were plenty of resources and not enough people to use them up.. a hunter gatherer would not have ‘family ties’.. but would move around in groups for safety.. modern anthropologist seem to think that homo eractus was an aggressive and warlike creature who killed off Neanderthals… but even primitive societies in the Amazon and North America were highly mobile and social.. people settled down in areas where there was constant flow of people bringing various product they had gathered/ made.. so a common means of communication was necessary and so evolved into languages..

[@CyrilYoutube]

I always knew she was true while everybody was humilited her. Each person in touch with the divine mother energy knew it... Archeologists and scientist need to reconnect with the hearth, where the true knowledge is. I wish you a good journey through the other world Marija, you can be in peace now.

[@Jimmylad.]

It’s great she has been vindicated with many new genetic studies

[@CyrilYoutube]

@@Jimmylad. yes it is :))

[@fdpcompdm]

@@Jimmylad. Can you name those studies?

[@serviustullus7204]

The Luwian (Hittite orthography) language was likely an adaptation by mainly Circassian ethnic groups to the horse-trading cultures of the Crimea and Eastern Black Sea (3000-1700 bce). It was an adopted form of IE by a non-genetically linked Circassian-Babylonian population who took IE wives into their Hatti-Harems.

[@usmarine4636]

Indo European was speaking since the Neolithic in Europe!!!

[@TropicOfCancer1998]

cylical migrations are possible, due to climate. so there could be multiple homelands where different part of the advancements took place.

[@Sira628]

but the question remains.. were the indoeuropean languages origin from the local populations or from new invasions or migrations from indoeuropean homeland by the indoeuropeans?? i mean who adopted the indoeuropean languages?? the local population from the indoeuropeans or the indoeuropeans from the locals?

[@joqqy8497]

Excellent, thank you. Also I had a good laugh at this: 33:09, because it really does look like him,

[@MegaMar20]

22:40 Respectfuly Lord Renfrew, It’s not Sanskrit but Prakrit that is written on the pillars with Ashoka’s edicts. And the script that it was written in was unknown to Sanskrit speakers of past and present.

[@tcjjack]

Pet peeve- I wish the presenter would refer to the appropriate haplogroups (R1a, R1b) as part of the ongoing discussion.

[@AutoReport1]

There has been more work since this which seems to indicate the Anatolian IE speakers are a mix of Anatolian farmer and Caucasian, but not eastern hunter gatherer which would put the origin of IE in the Caucasian steppe before some impetus split the speakers into a southern Anatolian group and a northern steppe group. More work needs of to be done on the route taken, and the time taken between leaving the northern Caucasus and entering Anatolia.

[@sandyfreeman928]

Good but in Old Slavonic: I bear -> beron (with nasal 'on') thou bearest -> bereshi they bear -> berontъ (with nasal 'on')

[@frostflower5555]

I am not sure about this word. It doesn't exist in Serbian which is Nosi=bear unless it's the word beriti/izbor which means to pick/select? In ancient times I think this word To bear was used when picking and carrying food so the word To bear was invented which can be seen in slavic words that mean to pick.

[@martonjuhasz1544]

Anatolian hypothesis makes the most sense in light of a new, rock solid theory about uralic languages obviously. Nice job, Lord Renfrew. Good instincts and outstanding scholarly effort.

[@Ravie3]

Márton Juhász You’re basing your ideas on “a new linguistic theory” rather than genetics?

[@martonjuhasz1544]

​@@Ravie3 both genetics and linguistics are needed, along with archaeology of course which i also took into consideration. if you are basing your theories only upon one or the other, or if you follow the 19th-20th century western trends (which are said to be "traditional" but in fact are just as modern as the ones about to take their place), then you will hardly approach an overarching understanding.

[@SideWalkAstronomyNetherlands]

nope..

[@alexdunphy3716]

DNA says you're wrong.

[@goldensunspiral]

Just because Hitler's archaeologists were able to find much of the ancient history of cro magnon progenity doesn't mean it's not true or that we shouldn't learn the real history!! Great work!!

[@didymussumydid9726]

But can you imagine how it will stick in their throat, to admit NSDAP was correct about anything? This overthrows the entire moral order built after the war. Every part of our government and social life is built on the rejection of those ideas.

[@didymussumydid9726]

@Kurotetsu if we could spread this truth it would shatter decades of hostile psychological warfare.

[@anne-marienordin7636]

👏👏👏👏👏👏

[@gfdfgaadfgadfg2309]

where is Danube civilization? Lepenski vir,Vinca culture etc

[@dorasmith7875]

Well, I can see thinking from Lord Renfew's tone that he simply threw big words around and didn't deign to explain it, and such thinking would probably be justified, but it's part of the basic geography of Neolithic Europe that everyone on all sides of this debate are familiar with. Lepenski Vir was a mesolithic civilization of hunters and gatherers who had adopted pottery from nearby farmers. People like them were well enough off to maintain their DNA, which was haplogroup I, against incoming farmers. Vinca culture was in the Balkans and they invented metalworking there. Farmers moved through the Danube and nearby areas on their way into Europe. They couldn't farm just anywhere but mainly in the loose damp soil near rivers.

[@vanderdole02]

those were farmers from the middle east….around 2000 BC Indo europeans started to come in...and slowly took over most of Europe..

[@elb7225]

@@vanderdole02 20000 BC .

[@veronicalogotheti1162]

You dont have from anatolia because they were the same with the stepps

[@KatzenjammerKid61]

Latin lives on in the Roman Catholic curia, rites, and official canon law.

[@dorasmith7875]

I was about to flag this as irrelevant, when I realized it's your terms for criticizing the British aristocracy! Nobody's spoken Latin in academic debate in a long time. :)

[@xtusvincit5230]

@@dorasmith7875 Is academic debate the only locus of language? This is the very definition of the academic bubble. It is this isolation that makes possible the common event where the most educated make the most ridiculous claims. The EU is the fruit of academic elites.

[@richardlinter4111]

@@xtusvincit5230 : You have a point. Every Catholic priest is required to have a working knowledge of Latin, and uses it in speaking to other priests - who may not share any other language.

[@lilyw.719]

It's making a rival too amongst the booming community of traditional, ancient rite Catholics who reject Vatican II. All of our masses and rites are said in Latin, many of us say our Rosaries and other prayers in Latin, and my parish even has a Latin language course for the laity.

[@marceloorellana5726]

It lives on in Italian, Spanish, Portuguese and to a lesser extent in French and Romanian. It lives on in Roman America what some people call Latin America. The America that conserves the traditions of language, culture and religion of the Romans or Latins.

[@GGTanguera]

When Prof. Gimbutas was talking about Old Europe she was talking about Vinca and Lepenski Vir cultura. They produced the first known European examples of a 'proto'-script and were the first people in the world known to smelt copper in "the stone age" :) Our history is (re)written by old, male professors in Cambridge and Berlin. That is the problem.

[@briananderson2219]

Is that to say the Yum Nia are the tribe of Dan🧐

[@kactus_3008]

It is more easier to refute the entire IE theory, rather than to defeat one of the two hypothesis...BTW, Minoan was clearly not an IE language (VSO), more releated to Semitic and precursor of the phoenician alphabet.

[@fluentpiffle]

The importance of the 'mystical' aspect Humanity carries within it, and so has access to, is not 'god' in its many guises, but the intrinsic aspect of infinitude.. 'God' has been our excuse for irresponsibility, leading to false 'authoritarianism', but the real 'enlightenment' occurs when we see how necessary infinitude is.. So 'god' has just been a vehicle, a carrier of genuine understanding, not the truth itself.. spaceandmotion

[@mushtaqbhat1895]

Thanks for a wonderful enlightening presentation. Perhaps soon through some lucky coincidence; we will find a Hittite or Luwian Corpse of a soldier; who was buried accidentally with others somewhere in Israel or Syria! Who knows? What all I would like to know! The people who really had the first complete sedentary palette of farming _crops, hove, animal husbandry? Which language did they speak? Who were Sumerians? Invaders or autochthonic contributors to agriculture-revolution in the fertile crescent or outsiders and the creators of the first urban civilization; as they according to our present knowledge apparently were? Does their own account of the first ruler of Uruk; as someone who gained the favor of the goddess Inanna in a bid against Aratta have something to tell us? And did Aratta exist? If yes; who were its inhabitants and what language did they speak? Indo-European? Sumerian? Some other language; related to neither; perhaps even one related to Sino-Tibetian or Altaic or Dravidian? How long will it take to decipher the script of Indus Valley civilizations? It might indirectly shed light also about the Indo-Europeans; at least as far as the bragging of the Aryans in their own accounts about themselves is concerned. Even Shiva and Yoga may be Dravidian in origin! Expansion of populations is very different from migrations and are often used interchangeably. Expansion probably implies a steady change in language; a slow modification induced through mutual borrowing of vocabulary amongst the neighbors. Same probably could be said about the genes or mutations; like lactose tolerance or immunity against certain germs. Perhaps the presence or lack of certain genes amongst the Indo-Europeans also contributed to their expansion and not merely the warrior equipment; from heavy duty axes; axles, horses to chariots. Besides, they seemed to have sought employment as teachers and advisers to other tribal rulers at the beginning _ apparently that is how they managed to evolve into a powerful kingdom (Mitani) amongst the mighty Mesopotamian and Iranian kingdoms (Assyria, Akkad and Elam) and apparently published treatises on horse and chariot riding; that could have been also learned by other folks. Technology transfer is often quicker than language or customs. Despite their significant contributions to the world; it is for me quite satisfying to know that the original Greek speakers had more Anatolian farmer genes than those from the Steppe-Nomads; otherwise perhaps the concept of democracy may never have evolved. Steppe- as well as desert- nomads tend to be authoritarian, warlike and absolutely subservient to Authority and Charismatic Chiefs!

[@ronhak3736]

Ashoka's pillar was not written in Sanskrit, but in Prakrit in Brahmi script. Sanskrit was not written in Ashoka's time.

[@pinkyfinger9851]

Prakritik and sanskrit are almost same

[@veronicalogotheti1162]

They werent the first from that area

[@yourfakelife6922]

Let me summarise this lecture. “WE DON’T KNOW ANYTHING”.

[@IvanTre]

Archeologists were completely wrong for half a century, mainly because they didn't want to be right. To the point of deeming arrow points to having had a symbolic value, etc and claiming something along the lines of that palisades were built for symbolic, rather than practical reasons. But hey, at least DNA has shown some of what went on.

[@johnclark7648]

Why not both? Neolithic farmers moved out of Anatolia ca. 8000 BCE, some going N and W into W & E Europe, others heading E to Iran & India. Recent work on Harappan texts by Bonta concludes that the language of the seals us I-E. Then the easternmost Europeans made their way to the Pontic Steppe & adopted a pastoral nomadic subsistence. 2-3 millenia later, they moved wewtward to become the Kurgan Migration. An similar thing happened much later in the case of the Goths. The distribution of the corded ware suggests that these were the people that formed the Germano-Slavic branch of I-E.

[@Nastya_07]

The Western Steppe Herders (Yamnaya-related peoples) were mainly a mix of Eastern and Caucasus hunter gatherers, the Anatolian neolithic ancestry in Yamnaya came later and reconstructed PIE vocabulary does not match with the Anatolian farmers. Also, it's still uncertain what language the Harappans spoke, many still argue for opposing theories (such as the Dravidian theory) and Indo-Iranian isn't that divergent from the other branches.

[@DemandAlphabetBeBrokenUp]

When I tended bar....I faced so much hatred from customers because they tipped the female bartenders more. Plus everyone in my group dies so much sooner than the "in" group. This lady was absolutely a hero and is why things are AMAZING today.

[@kevin6293]

None of that makes any sense to me. Why would customers hate you because they tipped the female bartenders more?

[@zipperpillow]

Keep it in your pants.

[@kevin6293]

Am I the only one bugged by the way this guy is talking? Is he just nervous?

[@frostflower5555]

Not everyone can talk smoothly to the public. Let's just say he's not a "smooth talker" lol. So don't be bugged by him!

[@drexelmildraff7580]

The Turkish homeland hypothesis based on agricultural spread does NOT explain the spread to Indo-European languages to the East. If you wish to claim that agriculure began in present day Turkey and then spread to all surrounding areas (presumably not in China since agriculture was independently developed there, as well as in Africa, and in Central America, etc, etc, etc). Summerian and Akkadian were spoken in Mesopotamia (civilizations based on agriculture) and were a language isolate (although there are claims Summerian is distantly related to Chinese) and a Semitic language respectively. How come Persian and India didn't wind up speaking semitic or Summerian derived languages? Moreover, the Tocharians were pastoralists that were never anywhere near Turkey, but spoke an Indo-European language.

[@stephentaylor2119]

Because the turks never entered Anatolia (modern day Turkey) until the mid 11th century.

[@drexelmildraff7580]

@@stephentaylor2119 While that is true, it has nothing to do with my point, nor is it relevant to anything disussed in the video. So why are you bringing it up? The word "Turkish" is used to indicate the geographical area that we currently refer to as Turkey. It does not refer to the Turks, nor indicate that the Turks had anything to do with the spread of agriculture. This is not claimed in the video, nor does anyone claim this. Did you actually listen to the video at all?

[@stephentaylor2119]

@@drexelmildraff7580I actually did, hence my comment. If you are going to refer to Anatolia as the Turkish homeland and Turkey. Anatolia is not the Turkish homeland

[@drexelmildraff7580]

And what does this have to do with the content of the video or my comment? The Turks are not discussed in the video -- which you claim to have watched -- at all. YOU are the one who brought it up. My comment deals with why the "Anatolian" hypothesis was always inherently defective. Your response is to bring up an immaterial, friviolous, and an irrelevant point as a straw man argument. There are two geographical regions discussed -- one is currently called Ukraine and one is currently called Turkey, BUT since it was called Anatolia in ancient times, if I refer to it as Turkey, you can't understand which geographical area that I'm talking about. Are you that easily confused? REALLY?

[@historylover792]

@@drexelmildraff7580 Agriculture did not begin in Anatolia but in the Levant. Do not confuse the advent of agriculture with the spread of agriculture to Europe via Anatolia. The fact that Hittite and Greek are Indo-European languages then presents us with a problem. Referring to Anatolia as Turkey is an abuse of language. It is akin to saying that Ionian Greeks were ancient Turks and that Turkey was once part of the Roman Empire. ROFL

[@shone_m]

How can Greek and Albanian be closer to Sanskrit then Serbian/Slavonic? Dishonest and incorrect assessment.

[@gotfridrozenkrojc9040]

@J.P. slavic vs sanskrit kzbin.info/www/bejne/pqWnh5SModxso5Y

[@bookmankdw8669]

Iron Age swat samples 1200-800bce are too low on steppe and female mediated that its unlikely to have any linguistic upheaval.

[@darladrury76]

Your right we should continue to insult our children while everyone else is a hero. You people have lost any nerve and will have us distroyed

[@brayehemu8889]

İn English in Kurdish. I bear. birum He bears. Birit We bear. Birume You bear. Biret They bear. Birent

[@witcherson9581]

not much examples.

[@chrisnewbury3793]

Interesting how the verb-forms are similar to Spanish, and probably other Romance Languages, that I don't speak.

[@merketarif126]

Anatoliy Klyosov: "Europe is becoming Turkic-speaking with the arrival of carriers of the haplogroup R1b (beginning of the 2nd millennium BC)".

[@witcherson9581]

R1a came earlier .

[@gar0188]

When you say central turkey I think the correct terminology to be used is central Anatolia because turkey only came into existence after the Ottoman Empire after ww1 to be real technical the turks who ruled the Ottoman Empire only came to anatolia in the late 11th century ad so when we are talking about migration and diffusion of languages which took place at least 10 thousand years or more before the nomadic Turks even migrated to that region is just wrong. At least say modern day turkey when you are talking about that region don’t spread false information. Empires rose and fell over the course of thousands of years in that region thats the cradle of civilization Eastern Anatolia is Western Armenia or Greater Armenia.

[@cobaltbomba4310]

Turkey belongs to Chinese mongol'.

[@veronicalogotheti5416]

Well is clear they were in anatolia They found the writings

[@ianmclean1066]

Skip the first five mins

[@viktorbaraga4514]

How come Vinca civilisation is not mentioned, being the oldest civilisation .According to DNA and archaeological findings this civilisation is a mixture of original settlers in Europe haplogroup I2a2a and so called Slavic one R1a. They were thriving in peace for 4000 years, egalitarian and matriarchal society. They were producing copper 6000 years BC and developed stationary farming. When the wave of so called Indo-Europeans marched in from south Siberia and were still in stone age. That is also the time when majority of original male settlers simply disappeared. “science" is blaming plaque and it’s the sort, that kills man only with particular DNA and the keep the women. Its obviously something missing here.How could Vinca people take the writing and "culture" from Greeks, when Vinca people with their own writing were present in modern Greece for over 8000 years. kzbin.info/www/bejne/sH6zaa2sg96gn9U

[@Europe.is.the.Mediterranean]

THE ANATOLIAN THEORY COMPLETELY OBLITERATES THE KURGAN...

[@danhanqvist4237]

A forward by Joseph Campbell is hardly a good sign....

[@shone_m]

The oldest agriculture discovered in Moravian Serbia, the oldest metalworking in Serbia, the oldest inscriptions are from Vinča culture, again Serbia, the oldest discovered wheel is from Slovenia. All of this from 9,000 to 4,000 bc. The West is is always looking at all things from western perspective only. There are so many connections between Sanskrit, Keltic, and Serbian.

[@jotvingis5247]

it is also well known that modern humans originated in serbia.

[@frostflower5555]

The Balkans are underestimated indeed.

[@shone_m]

@@jotvingis5247 I2a and I1 Cromagnon haplotypes are well represented in the Balkans in Slavic populations (highest in the world concentration). They have also been confirmed in Vinča skeletons.

[@joshuajaison9957]

​@@shone_mu do know that haplogroups make up like 3-5% of ur entire genome right 😂😂😂😂 Plz also add up that r1a was found in there bodies So u also believe human originated from Serbia nice

[@kelamuni]

Nonetheless, Renfrew did jump the gun and make a lot of assumptive interpretations of the data. Thinking R1a is 'Celtic' being one of them.

[@BRIANJAMESGIBB]

[@anitawadhwa9165]

Colin Renfrew starts at roughly 5:30 kzbin.info/www/bejne/pp7ZZH1raseXkMU

[@arcane3464]

Research on the basis of bible or biblical is bound to be erroneous.

[@jrippee05]

Ok...I tuned at 18:53 and that is not the correct counting for Japanese. I am questioning this video.

[@wolfofcoins]

How so? This is the Japanese way of counting to ten. They use also another system, the Sino-Japanese (ichi, ni, san etc.), but what's shown on the video is correct.

[@collieclone]

This is the Japanese numbering system for counting items of food, for example. If you order two dishes in a restaurant you would say futotsu and not ni, which is two if you are simply counting arithmetically.

[@kevin6293]

I don’t really think you need direct evidence of horse riding. The earliest horse riders wouldn’t have needed much equipment to ride them, so it’s not surprising there’s no evidence. We know they had domesticated horses. How do you herd horses without riding one? It doesn’t take a creative genius to come up with the idea to get on their backs and ride them.

[@alexdunphy3716]

There is actually evidence of riding horses back to 3000bc I think. Skeletons of horses excavated in the steppe have worn teeth indicating they had a bit placed in their mouth for riding

[@simplicius11]

The early horses were small and not suitable for riding. That would be similar as riding a donkey.

[@patshelby9285]

@@simplicius11 which people still do in some places.

[@gullybull5568]

Dig in UKRAINE.

[@bookmankdw8669]

Ain't it interesting that Iranian speaking tribes dominated Easter Europe much before slavic language got attested.

[@KairoscopioDivino]

they moved from Caucasus to Armenia then to Anatolia

[@veronicalogotheti1162]

Im a greek fan Logos that is and was always A human

[@brandongonsalves3615]

Indo-Europeans built the pyramids around the world correct? Toacharians in America?

[@veronicalogotheti5416]

Is not russia

[@elizabethhestevold1340]

Facinating Challenges, I hope at some time, in her " window off time present, Meghan cacthing this. The ironi off it all , is she is through Indo European ancient DNA, as Noble as the next Brithan, and Harry through Minoan, Greece, and Curga , Danish anchestory, through Prince Philip, are essentially distant Family , So much for , our racial families are connected, not disconnected.. Would be in her spare time , via languages, and Archilogical , for her mother. Very important work , regarding the Family. 🙏🇩🇰🇺🇸.

[@antoniotorcoli5740]

At least Colin admitted that his theory was wrong.

[@drivinsouth651]

Migrations usually occur when after a baby-boom; there is a severe drought or something similar...Starvation is a great motivator. :'(

[@Dick_Interritus]

War for example. Look at the great migration happening right now.

[@dorasmith7875]

Um, well it was complex. It was driven by big herds that were herded on horseback, and horsedrawn wagons, as well as big healthy populations. One idea is they could digest milk, which made them healthier and increased the sizes of their herds. It's been proven they were physically bigger than the people they moved in on. I'm not right up on what climate changes on the steppe might have had to do with it, and I dimmly remember there might have been one. I think they also had metal, or had had metal; their shaft hole battle axes performed better in battle. Their horses and wagons were bronze age tanks. A military advantage tends to lead to conquest. But they took over by a number of means, including treaty and intermarriage. In many cases, their bigger herds and more efficient economy probably made the difference. It was a time when there weren't many people around at all, so small changes could change the balance.

[@LittleLordFancyLad]

Whether PIE came from the steppes or Anatolia would all be so much clearer if the Hittites had buried their dead instead of cremating them. It's hard to get DNA from a pile of ashes.

[@woodpeckerfromspacewoodpec45]

the few remains of Hittites showed that they were a mix of Anatolian Neolithic farmers and Caucasus hunter-gatherers.

[@g-rexsaurus794]

The Hittites are irrelevant to the question, the Indo-European languages all show signs of having been spoken not by agricultural communities and all the genetic signs we have points to the Steppe, even if Hittite samples contradicted that it would only create a question about what happened to the Anatolia branch specifically or move the Indo-European theory in 2 phases, but the main phase still happens in steppe.

[@saadabbas8976]

Genesis 11:9

[@mustafaaziz6731]

1:10 kirgen hypothesis sounds like the khalunian hypothesis

[@pomponi0]

the what?

[@mustafaaziz6731]

@@pomponi0 amp.economist.com/news/2012/11/21/the-cycle-of-history

[@vanderdole02]

Migrations do have an impact, just ask the Natives of the Americas, ( who were exterminated for the most).

[@longbowarcher100]

hello wim. there are more American Indians living now than when the Europeans arrived. I would however put forward the idea that the hunter gatherer indian culture was and is exterminated.

[@thebrocialist8300]

The Conquistadores were not migrants lol. The only legitimate migrants to the Americas were the religious minorities (Jews from Iberia and fringe Protestant groups from England and northwestern Europe).

[@37Dionysos]

@@longbowarcher100 "More Native Americans now than when Europeans arrived"? You're either joking or an idiot.

[@longboz]

@@37Dionysos neither, its what the statistics demonstrate. the problem with you and your type of mind is that you want to believe what you want to believe. I am a scientist and base my statement on objective facts and figures.

[@37Dionysos]

@@longboz Either cite/link immediately your "objective facts & figures" (a joke in itself) showing more Native people(s) alive now than in first European days, or prove yourself a lying idiotic hole who lives in fantasies while charging others with wishfulness.

[@cavemancaveman5190]

okie dokie that's all folks ALL INVALID UNTIL ANTARCTICA MELTS