Dominion War : Cardassia's Justified Betrayal

[@Liopleurodon]

Lore: The only defend the federation had was DS9, the Defiant and a BoP. Runabouts. Are we a joke to you? Everybody: ehm..yes?!

[@joehayes9933]

@Paul Mehoff Breen: *Allow us to introduce ourselves*

[@flee4342]

Frank Begbie It is made by the same people who make plot warp engines and plot weapons. Problem is they have a very short shelf life. Usually only lasting one episode.

[@trazyntheinfinite9895]

@@joehayes9933 what a cool, subdued entry it was.

[@TDBoedy]

The UFP - "Are we the baddies?"

[@dogofwar6769]

@TDBoedy yes, yes they are. There was multiple examples of that even in TNG.

[@Skrubb_Lord]

What I've always argued about is that when Dukat told Sisko that he'll be taking the station back, he would be stealing it from the Bajorans. The Cardassians abandoned it and the Bajorans took it as reparation/ compensation for the occupation. The UFoP was just helping them get it back up in working order and to maintain it.

[@thewewguy8t88]

its like sisko said to edginaton in blaze of glory "they ran alright right into into arms of the dominion."

[@zealotmaster1]

hell has no fury like woman scorned and armed with the uss pimp hand

[@JossshyB]

Brings the question, why was Kira, a representative of the Bijouran government and who was not a member of the Federation, let alone Starfleet, given command of a Starfleet warship?

[@chrisd2051]

@@JossshyB why not?

[@resolutegerm]

As long as space Jesus told them to do it the bajorans were ok with pretty much anything

[@daddyleon]

Yeah, something like: "You were the Emissary, we would've done almost everything, had you asked us to do it."

[@youdontknow7190]

Shows again the extreme side of religion

[@mb2000]

I don’t think it really mattered whether the blood screenings worked or not or if anyone knew whether they did. They could do blood screenings, and who would Sisko have organising and performing these screenings? Bashir. The guy in the best position to avoid taking the test himself. And presumably if there were other Changelings on the station, Bashir would know and be able to fudge their tests as well. Plus, did you notice how Bashir kept suggesting that Sisko ask Starfleet for more ships? Given his Yukon-blowing-up plan, he obviously wanted the casualty/ship destruction to be as high as possible. He must have wet himself when a load of Romulans turned up...

[@osricleondegrance9244]

And did you notice how he totally tore Avery Brooks down as a person and actor, reducing him to nothing more than big, black and in your face?

[@battlesheep2552]

LOL wet himself because changelings are liquid

[@ryank5424]

I feel I should point out that just because they didn't show it on screen, doesn't mean sisko didn't discuss the Klingon presence with bajoran govt. Or the federation might have been granted some leeway when it comes to the defense of the station and wormhole as bajoran doesn't really have the assets to defend it.

[@LoreReloaded]

Magical unicorns could have arbitrated it...to be fair

[@Tuning3434]

@@LoreReloaded In Season 3 of Discovery: Burnham is crowned QUEEN of the magical Unicorns!

[@triandfit1]

Consider that since the Bajoran system was nearly wiped out, their government wouldn’t have a problem with Emmisary’s decision.

[@crazedvole]

After "Homefront" and "Paradise Lost" in season 4, there is no way the average Federation or Romulan citizen is going to think the Dominion is in the alpha quadrant just to help

[@AdultToons]

The Kardashian Empire MUST be stopped!!!

[@KiltedCritic]

Even if changeling Bashir pulled off his mission, the fleet can just warp away with time to spare since a shockwave doesn't even go at the speed of Warp 1. This was also the case in Generations, where the Enterprise outran the nova caused by Sorin at Warp 1.

[@sarek8472]

I MISS DS9 it had some of the most interesting fulfilling episodes.

[@rmrpheonixrising]

The best of all the Trek series

[@youdontknow7190]

Indeed

[@hiddentrailvideo6992]

0:54 I know what you’re thinking. Did he fire six phaser shots or only five? Well, to tell you the truth, I kinda lost track myself. So you gotta ask yourself just one question: do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk?!

[@andrewblanchard2398]

" I SHOT THEM 6 TIMES I SHOT THEM IN THE WARP CORE "

[@FrostglowASMR]

If the Dominion had not turned towards Cardassia right away, but stopped to destroy DS9 first, they would have won the war and been able to use the wormhole at will.

[@iamhimmiii_nutron]

No. While they would have a short lived victory, the Alpha Quadrant would probably united against them and would have once since the dominion only has the space around the wormhole while the other governments could send forces in from everywhere.

[@TheDECKFISH]

It’s 5am but yeah, I’ll watch this.. I’ve got work in 3 hours, love your work as always.

[@maddslothii2532]

The Federation should have crushed the upstarts during their war. The Phoenix later showed just how easy it would have been. so it is the Federations fault for coddling them rather then slapping them down a decade before.

[@maddslothii2532]

he wasn't wrong. we know from at least two TNG episodes the Cardassians were preparing for a new war. "The Wounded" and later from "Chain of Command". there was also a history of bad blood between the Klingons and Cardassians, the "Betreka Nebula Incident" that started an 18 year conflict.

[@ryanarment5393]

The thing is that the newer more powerful starship classes like the nebula and galaxy class starships were the exception rather than the rule as far as the type of ships starfleet was using. The bulk of the fleet was made up of older classes that were primarily science and exploration vessels. Ships that wereat best evenly matched with the cardassians, or at worst, outgunned.

[@billnumby1080]

Much like the US has done with all their blood thirsty but defeated enemies of the past, ones undoing everytime.

[@djolds1]

Bajoran sovereignty over their star system and possession of DS9 was humored and mildly indulged by the Federation - right up until the stakes became existential. At which point the screws were applied and the Bajorans were informed about the way things actually were.

[@AlphaNumericKey]

In fairness to the Federation, "Bajor, there is literally a GIGANTIC DEATH FLEET ROLLING INTO OUR SPACE THROUGH YOUR SPACE. You are, quite literally, either with us or against us."

[@ProfessorTerrible]

When the Klingon War began in DS9, didn't the Bajoran Government state that they'd defer to the Federation Council's decisions relating to it? In that episode it seemed like it was just over the Invasion of Cardassia and the immediate situation, but maybe the Bajoran Government maintained that stance. If they did, it could explain Sisko and Starfleet having more authority over Deep Space Nine going forward, they had been delegated that authority by the Bajorans already.

[@BlackCloudBoss]

ProfessorTerrible there’s any number of plausible reasons why what happened in the episode took place. This dude should accept what happened in the episode.

[@WesStacey]

I could be argues that aligning with Cardassia and coming out into the open was the Dominions first major misstep, and while i think that its true, I think they knew it could be a mistake but their hands were forced and it was it was probably a calculated risk that ultimately didn't pay off but one that they had to make. After all even after changeling Martok was exposed the Federation/Klingon and Klingon/Cardassian tensions continued, The strategy of hiding in the shadows, exploiting the fear of Changelings and destabilizing alliances and weakening the Alpha (and Beta) quadrant powers was working remarkably well, in fact you could argue that after exposing the Martok changeling would have made it all worse, now they KNOW that changelings are among them manipulating them, it's no longer a question of who MIGHT be a changeling but who IS a changeling. They could have had every power questioning every decision of every other power, hell even have everyone questioning every decision of their own government. And yet they threw that all away when they allied with Cardassia, they galvanized the Alpha quadrant ending the tensions and aligning everyone against them no longer was the Dominion an amorphous dark shadow falling over everything. Now there were concrete borders, something specific that everyone could turn their fear and anger, and more importantly their weapons towards. Even if they tried to continue manipulating from within it would suddenly become much harder to scare people into turning on each other when there is a specific concrete enemy to fight right over there. The Klingon's especially, had suffered for YEARS without an outside enemy to fight and had turned on each other on multiple occasions, now the there were enemies and all Klingon's were more than happy to fight them alongside any allies that were willing to join them. But as i said i think that if not for one important factor the dominion would have waited longer before offering the olive branch to the Cardassians and continued the destabilization strategy for a while longer before coming in with little to no major oposition offering olive branches/protection where they could (with strings attached of course) and attacking where they couldn't with little to no united opposition, but the alpha quadrant was different in one key aspect, the wormhole. The wormhole would have thrown a wrench into the founders normal "divide and conquer" strategy. The wormhole was the ONLY method of contact with their considerable holdings/resources in the Gamma quadrant. The federation could at any time close the wormhole and they needed a foothold in the alpha quadrant, i think the exposure of the Martok Changeling while for the most part could have been ignored except that it put the federation on alert and the more destabilized the alpha quadrant become the more likely that the federation would close the wormhole to prevent a full invasion. So the Dominion NEEDED to establish a base of operations in the Alpha quadrant ASAP so that if the wormhole was closed they would have some resources in the Alpha quadrant that they operate from. They needed it badly enough that it was worth the risk of uniting the remaining major powers to establish such a beachhead. It was probably a calculated gamble that ultimately didn't pay off. I'd imagine that the Founders had always planned on using the Cardassia as the initial power they offered membership too but my guess is that the schedule was far quicker than they would have normally liked because they needed to establish a presence before the supply lines to the gamma quadrant were cut off, which is supported by what they did after Cardassia joined, they didn't come screaming in and start attacking everyone they could, they came in retook Cardassian territory to placate their new ally, then stopped and started milking the existing supply lines for all they were worth until they were ready to "stabilize" the wormhole and put in a plan to try and destroy the main fleets of the big three remaining alpha quadrant powers. they managed to stabilize the wormhole even if they hadn't destroyed the fleets so that they no longer had to worry about it being closed and then continued milking it until the federation mined it and then BOOM WAR! In the end this strategy worked incredibly well even after the prophets essentially closed the wormhole to the Dominion, they had enough resources in the Alpha quadrant by that point that they were actually winning the war, had it not been for the Section 31 virus and the Cardassian rebellion they would have likely won the war. So yeah not really a misstep but a calculated risk and ultimately didn't pay off.

[@ryanarment5393]

I agree it was a calculated risk. One that was too good to pass up. The Dominion needed a foothold in the Alpha quadrant, specifically one that was close enough to the wormhole so that when they did launch the actual war, it wouldn't be too hard for them to capture control of it. Cardassia was perfect since it was close enough to serve their goals, they didn't need to expend any resources putting down a rebellion, and they added a relatively strong military to supplement the Jem'hadar. The cardassians were against the wall and would welcome any aid since their infrastructure had collapsed. The timing of the dominion's move was perfect, due to the chaos that the alpha quadrant. the federation had sustained heavy losses in the Borg attack as well as the war with the klingons. The klingons had also sustained heavy losses in the wars with the cardassians and the federation. The Romulans had effectively lost the Tal Shiar, and the Ferengi were more inclined to negotiate rather than fight. Granted the dominion's presence helped to unify their enemies to a degree, but the odds were still very much in their favor. The only reason the dominion lost was because of the internal problems you mentioned.

[@BattlestarZenobia]

You mean had Odo not reached out in friendship. Section 31 nearly made it much much worse

[@WesStacey]

@@BattlestarZenobia say what you want about section 31, they actually saved the alpha quadrant. Had it not been for Odo and Bashir the founders would have been wiped out. Not sure what would have happened to the Dominion without the founders but it's pretty safe to say that overall the Dominion would have eventually collapsed without the founders, however they might have taken down the Alpha Quadrant or at least a good chunk of it's population with it had it not been for Odo using the cure as a barganing chip on peace talks.

[@BattlestarZenobia]

Wes Stacey no they didn’t, if the Founders died with out giving a recall order the Jem’hadar would have fought to the last man killing millions, remember the Founders always said Odo returning to the Great Link was more important than the Alpha Quadrant anyway

[@Paerigos]

In general - I think Gowron would actually come with his fleet to engage Dominion ships next to DS9... and well... Romulans would likely also come in guns blazing if the battle happened. which acutally might have stopped war then and there...

[@earthhound]

They should've all invaded Cardassia then while they only had 50 ships.

[@Paerigos]

@@earthhound Like Federation could have done that... but in essence the only thing that would prevent dominion steamrolling DS9 would be fact that founders had to keep significant portions of their fleet in gama quadrant - for example against the Borg and such... its not like Dominion is unchallanged power there.

[@GammaPhyrok]

Kira: Open fire on Dukat's ship! Dax: He's out of range. (Translation) Kira: Aww, hell naw! Dax, F#@K HIM UP! Dax: I ain't gonna die cause you crazy!

[@Slavir_Nabru]

In regards to the fleet presence at DS9 from this point forwards. It's quite possible the Bajorans were against military fortification of the station until Dukats very public announcement of his intention to retake it and attempt to destroy the solar system. Remaining neutral becomes somewhat harder when one side is calling for your extermination and the other is offering to help. (Is there a fleet presence during the period where Starfleet hold the station but the Bajorans and Dominion have signed the non-aggression pact? This is pre-treaty iirc but my theory falls down if the fleet remains through that treaty)

[@billnotice9957]

Correct. Classic my Enemy is also the Enemy of my bigger Enemy has now become my friend!

[@andrewgilbertson5672]

It's true that warping in a solar system is inconsistent, at best- but as a big Motion Picture fan, I appreciated the reference nonetheless. I cracked up about "My theory that Dax was lying to Kira because she didn't want to die." :-)

[@osricleondegrance9244]

It's like the Picard maneuver isn't a thing.

[@lucasbachmann]

Except in ST:TMP the Enterprise didn't go to warp because the warp drive was still being worked on. At best the DS9 writer was misunderstanding TMP and made Dax look rather unprofessional.

[@cretinousmartyr3522]

I hope that really stupid really long ad I just watched was worth the ad revenue for you, it melted my brain a little bit. At least afterward your videos intelligence re solidified it as much as it could, thank you for the great and frequent content.

[@LoreReloaded]

Helps more than you know :)

[@danielzimmerman5279]

I think you missed a point about the Klingons on the station, The Emissary of Bajor wanted them there, so he talks to the people and explains that it is what is need to defend them and the Prophets and they would go along with having them there. Remember he is the one who told them to remain neutral through all of this after the Prophets sent him "visions" so if he could get them to do that, getting some Klingons stationed there in a "cold war" would be easy.

[@VelvetCondoms]

From what I can tell, warping inside a solar system is not a task of uniform risk, much like how modern sublight travel isn't of uniform risk. Moving at an extremely high speed towards a star and stopping within very short range is dangerous in Star Trek and real life. Moving along courses which don't have anything you're likely to collide with, in contrast, is relatively safe in both real life and Star Trek.

[@mysticranger6894]

Those that say bajoran wouldnt allow are ignoring when Kira during season 5 finale told sisko, although only for formality that bajoran government protests them ignoring their call to return control of station and siskonjust noted it, sure they didnt really want them to do that but shows federation didnt have to listen if they. Ot want tonalthiugh relations would sour then.

[@terranheartofsole1243]

Deep space nine a legacy of a series. By far the best series made from the Star Trek universe in my opinion. I loved the Lore within the series. The characters just seemed more real to me. With stumbling falling and learning from each of their mistakes. Real life takes great courage with the ability to always rise to the occasion. The realism really did appeal to me.

[@StoneyBrownTV]

I just want to know why the gelato machines were all offline?! Perhaps a changeling posing as Bashir on the station at that time?! Coincidence? I think not.

[@andrewblanchard2398]

I would've sent TEN THOUSAND SHIPS into the GAMMA QUADRANT and wipe out the DOMINION completely

[@trazyntheinfinite9895]

but who would fund such an operation?

[@andrewblanchard2398]

@@trazyntheinfinite9895 STARFLEET managed to get THOUSANDS of STARFLEET SHIPS along with the KLINGONS ROMULANS and in canon ( but not onscreen for budget reasons ) VULCANS ANDORIANS TELLERITE and a few others

[@LanMandragon1720]

No you wouldn't have it's not an authoritarian state. You would have to convince the hyper hippies to be ok with it. Which would never happen they gave away territory to a second rate power. Because they couldn't be bothered to actually fight. There's exactly 0 chance you could get an invasion approved.

[@grantt1589]

I also think that the bajorans would welcome the presence of a fleet a bajor especially after the destruction of new bajor and the uss odesy

[@hawhite2000]

Why would the Federation stop random acts by the Klingons? The Klingons weren't members of the Federation although they were allies. The Federation would negotiate with the Klingons but they wouldn't necessarily act against them. Bajour also isn't a member of the Federation so their concerns are secondary to Federation member concerns.

[@LoreReloaded]

Well..and I'm just spitballing here.. Maybe by stopping them in some form, they wouldn't destroy the infrastructure of a nation that would then give a foothold to a genocidal government that can't be stopped.

[@hawhite2000]

@@LoreReloaded But where does that stop? There would be basically an open justification for war at all times. The Federation would involve itself in conflicts because it deems the cause to be just. I don't necessarily disagree just that it presents a slippery slope.

[@terrencejones9817]

The intial Dominion fleet is about 50 ships. It's possible that DS9 and the Defiant could have won that fight. Maybe that's why they tried to blow up the sun? Plot hole 1: We know that 1/3 of the Klingon fleet attacked Cardassia and nearly blitz all the way to Cardassia prime before in theory the Cardassian fleet mobilized enough to hold a line. But only 50 Dominion ships some how defeat the Klingons? Or did the Klingons redeploy most of their forces during the short Federation boarder war? Plot hole 2: The Fed ships that Join the Defense of DS9 are the very same ships that relieve DS9 with the Klingons are attacking the year before. So it seems the Feds do have a small taskforce in the area. Yet these ships are "needed elsewhere " when the Dominion finally does attack the Station.

[@ryanarment5393]

The klingons most likely redeployed their forces after the initial invasion. They only kept some of the territory they seized, and that wouldn't be enough to support and supply 1/3 of their total forces. Even if they did keep a larger presence in the captured territory, they did have the war with the Federation which required a significant military investment from them and would require a redeployment. The Federation had a reduced amount of ships available due to the borg attack, and the war with the Klingons. For some reason they didn't seem to bother increasing their ship production.

[@terrencejones9817]

@@ryanarment5393 I think the Feds did. In a Voyager flash back. Janeway gets to see her ship before it's launched. We see Galaxies and Akrias under construction. Voyager takes place a few years before the Dominion war.

[@crownprincesebastianjohano7069]

The Klingons got bogged down and had to pull some forces out of Cardassia to fight the Federation. But, people often overlook the Cardassian part of the equation. They are fighting on their own doorstep, and once they initial shock of the invasion wore off the Cardassians held the line. While there were skirmishes and small-scale raids, the Cardassian Fleet was able to rebuild and their shipyards were pumping out ships. They were able to fortify their systems and use them as maneuver pivot points. With their penchant for intelligence gathering, even with the Obsidian Order gone, the replacement CIB was still effective. It is likely the Cardassians had achieved numerical superiority by the time the Dominion arrived, had ID'd key Klingon positions and their order of battle, and had everything in place for an offensive. They used the 80 or so Dominion ships as a spearhead and rolled up the Klingons in a matter of 2-3 days. In terms of numbers, we know the Cardassians had effectively made good their losses from the first days of the invasion and then some. "Call to Arms" is five months from the day the Dominion fleet arrived and in that time the Dominion barely would have had time to build more shipyards and the entire logistics and industrial base to support the huge fleet they had by that episode. Sure, over five months they probably sent 1500+ ships, but that doesn't explain the size of the Cardassian Fleet as demonstrated in Sacrifice of Angels where it is clear they represent about 50% and almost all are Galors. It is likely the Cardassians were already on total-war footing before the Dominion arrived and were building Galors like crazy, out-numbered the Klingons when they blitzed them and that is why they had so many ships only five months after the change of government.

[@BlackCloudBoss]

4:19 this is why Sisko is the best Captain. Also, It has been stated that Bajor had to back away from the Federation because the Feds could not guarantee Bajor’s safety in “A Call to arms” and Sisko’s visions. Even after DS9 is retaken this still applies.

[@radicalgoodspeed16]

I think the Cardassians were justified in there joining the Dominion, they had been attacked by the Klingons with no provocation or declaration of war and were losing badly they were being made sport of by the Klingon fleet and the federation did nothing to help. But then the Federation went to war with the Klingons to stop them wiping out Cardassia. But they did not enter Cardassian space to push the Klingons out and fought only within there own territory leaving the Cardassians high and dry and only giving tacit aid in the form of replicators.

[@MandalorV7]

Then you have the Maquis, a terrorist group made up of Federation colonist and Starfleet personnel. It doesn't matter if the Federation condemns their actions or even makes efforts to arrest them. The fact is that these people come from the Federation and are killing Cardassians.

[@hawhite2000]

Did Cardassia request aid? I honestly don't remember.

[@frankjones195]

The Cardassians were manipulated, by the changelings, and made to suffer some, so that they would run to the Dominion for help.

[@drahcir8402]

Ok, i had completely forgotten about this. And as we are nor told - or shown - the Bajorans having any say in the Klingons having a permanent presence at DS9, it's clearly all in starfleets and the Federations control. Which does make it stupid that they don't have a fleet at DS9. Then again, how many fleets do we see (or ar told about) stationed at Federation stations?

[@bozhijak]

"A glorified bus...." *snort!

[@JAGtheTrekkieGEMINI1701]

The Cardassians should still have signed/kept a NON AGRESSION PACT with the Federation even though they joined the Dominion since they were not the enemy. But Dukat wanted DS9/Terrok Nor back so that was impossible...

[@Rob_Thorsman]

I bet he was pissed when the Dominion signed a non-aggression treaty with Bajor. He wanted Bajor back as well.

[@justfitz08]

@@Rob_Thorsman the show made it clear how much he hated the dominions treaty with bajor many times.

[@JAGtheTrekkieGEMINI1701]

@Amber Hoke they could have still tried to avoid an Open conflict.. but Dukat is just crazy

[@justfitz08]

@@JAGtheTrekkieGEMINI1701 As I recall the dominion didnt officially declare war until the federation mined the wormhole. I remember a meeting between Weyon and Sisko trying to resolve the situation peacefully but sisko came out of it saying it was BS and that the dominion intended to attack.

[@JAGtheTrekkieGEMINI1701]

Of course it was BS. The Dominian took every chance to declare war and blame it on the Federation. I am just talking about the Cardassians who should have tried to be more independent from the Dominion from the get go even though they joined their Empire

[@justfitz08]

I think the writers should have done more with the romulans. Bringing them in as an ally during the dominion war was huge, but only a couple of episodes really addressed the partnership, and it remained adversarial. So much more could have been done with that story line. They even dropped the idea of having a romulan on board the defiant really quickly. I'm happy that they finally took a risk and brought a ferengi into Starfleet, but the romulans story was mistreated post tng imo.

[@christenorio9555]

New topic! What if the cbs all-access releases an tos\tng\ds9\voyager remastered in 4k?

[@mr.s2005]

Have to agree that Cardassians had their backs to the wall and really had no choice but to join with the Dominion to survive...their mistake was joining the Dominion in expanding beyond their original territory. If we look at an historical similarity I would have point out Finland during World War II. They only joined the Axis because the Allies only gave moral support and a few volunteers when the Soviet Union invaded....somewhat similar to the Federation's actions. Unlike the Cardassians, to my knowledge, the Finns only fought their original enemy and didn't aggressively fight any of the other Allies.

[@travisdavis6778]

Great analogy!

[@Dungeonstone]

Gravity being what it is.... Going to warp inside a solar system when headed ~towards~ the sun may be more dangerous than going to warp from in the system while headed away from the sun ( or other large planetary bodies).

[@HeadlessChickenTO]

Whose worse when pushed to the thin ice, the pink skins or the grey ripple heads?

[@travisdavis6778]

Pink skins

[@Shadowrunner340]

No, no, no. Don't give the Dominion any kind of pass here. They just tried to destroy the Bajoran system. The attempt, and its near success, in itself is more than enough justification for the major Alpha Quadrant powers to subsequently invade Cardassia, and do some screaming of their own through the wormhole to attack the Dominion directly, for the purpose of eradicating them, on the grounds of them being an intolerable threat.

[@arcticfox5118]

For the shuttle/range part 2 things to consider. First a warship has armor and very powerful shields. We also know starfleet weapons have a max range and that the cannons arent lightspeed weapons. I.E have travel time. So while the cardasian ship may have been closer it was likely still outside EFFECTIVE range while a shuttle was not. A real world example of this would be if i had a rifle that was rated to punch through 1 inch steel plates at 100 yards. If i move that steel plate back to 150 yards then it is outside EFFECTIVE range and unlikely to penetrate every time. If i move it back to 200 yards i may hit it but its unlikely ill ever penatrate it. Now if we take a 1/16th inch steel plate and put it at 300 yards i can hit and penatrate that much thiner plate making it well within effective range. Lastly if you combine that with movment, a "bus" is much slower then a warship usually and smaller and as such has a more limited range of movment and less surface area. So not only will it be flagged by the computer as "within range" but the computer can compensate better for its movments and damage is more concentrated on a much smaller area. A warship can roll duck dodge and bring fresh shields or armor to take damage at range as there is much more hull to spread damage over. And lastly as for the bus being able to take shots, If the changeling modded the shields to modulate in time with the defiants weapon modulation plus beefed them up even temporaraily then combine that with being at extreme range already and it can take a lot more abuse then it should and make sense it did so. Also on the tractor beam with shields up the TB can engulf the entire runabout shields and all. Its likely they can put a "barrier" up to stop movment or drag it plus it can overpower the smaller engines. Meanwhile on a large ship even if you engulfed it the TB may be so weak the ships engines can rip it free. them is my 2 cents.

[@JohnSmith-eh2xu]

The main issue was that, as Dukat explicitly stated, the Cardassians were seeking to become "the true leaders of the Alpha Quadrant". It was however quite obvious that the Cardassian Union was a second-rate power compared to UFP and Klingon/Romulan empires. It would be equivalent to, let's say, France wanting to become the true leader of the world, while only the US and perhaps China could make that claim today.

[@JS-wp4gs]

Not justified at all, and it wasn't 'cardassia' joining the dominion it was dukat, forcing cardassia to follow along. That aside, the jokes on them in the end, because if the dominion had won the war they would have exterminated the cardassians as soon as they had served their purpose. the founders aren't stupid and they didn't forget what the cardassians and romulans tried to do to them. they were just an ironic means to an end as far as the dominion was concerned. stalin would have called the cardassians 'useful idiots.' that nobody seems to have seen the inevitable end result coming is rather strongly indicative of just how stupid cardassians must be

[@LoreReloaded]

We will agree to disagree

[@travisdavis6778]

I have to say This is plausible, we kind of saw this anyway once the been joined the Dominion.

[@briandavion]

@@LoreReloaded it's pretty clear that Dukat did use the negotiations with the dominion to make himself leader. it's likely he had government backing with the negotiations but Dukat likely convinced the Dominion to hand him supreme power. it wou;dn';t have been a hard sell. Dukat was infinatly a better choice for the Dominion then a democraticly elected council. One only need look at current events to see how mercural public mood can be in a democracy. (consider Brexit) . I can just imagine The Detapa council, giving Dukat authority to "do anything in his power to save cardassia" and Dukat abusing that trust (stabbing people in the back for his own self improvement while justifying it as "for your own good" is pretty much who Dukat IS) by negfotiating entry into the dominion and standing aside with a sly smile on his face as ther dominion makes it's first act to dissolve the detapa council and hand the government to their patsy. As for the eventual fate of Cardassia under the dominion, I suspect the Dominion did indeed view them, mostly as useful idiots. The Cardassians clearly seemed to think the Dominion where going to conquer the Alpha Quadrant for them and we did see DS9 being turned over to the Cardassians, I just don't see this lasting. The founders already had the Vorta, the Cardassians wheren't needed as administrators and their ambition was dangerous. we would have seen the founders over time strip more and more power and autonomy from the Union. turning them over time into a servile subject race. We actually saw this slowly happening in the series (it's what pushed Damar into rebellion). I imagine the dominion would have eventually disbanded the Cardassian fleet (why do they need a fleet when they have the Jemhadar to protect them right?) vorta administrators would have been appointed to "over see" cardassians worlds, turning swiftly to rulership. Cardassia would have slowly , in effect, become Bajor to the Dominions Cardassians.

[@JS-wp4gs]

@@LoreReloaded I think not. It was clear he was doing what he did for his own personal gain, he was even called out a couple times for it. He simply rationalizes his behavior as being for some common good, just like he did regarding his actions toward bajor. as for the dominion exterminating the cardassians thats not even debatable, the female founder flat out said to garak in no uncertain terms that eradicating the cardassians was their intent. 'your people were doomed the moment they attacked us'

[@LoreReloaded]

@@JS-wp4gs ok

[@Shadx27]

The problem I had was the fact that the Dominion was proven to have gotten the Klingons to attack Cardassia in the first place. Cardassia wouldn't have been in such a position in the first place if it wasn't for the Dominion. Now I can see Dukat and a few others glossing over that fact to gain power, but I bet no one told the general populace about that fact. Also, the Cardassian's, even at the end of war, did admit all the actions during and before did not lend them to allies, so they kinda dug their own graves..

[@mstislavportnov9332]

Section Messy Hair saves the day again. Thanks, Lore.

[@keithplunkett]

Romulans joining the fleet was so badass

[@bamstarful]

I don't buy the suicidal Founder as its so out of character when the changeling didn't know IT had been discovered or its plan.......and I think the wormhole would survive a standard nova as its a subspace get way and a normal nova only does regular space

[@ottersirotten4290]

Why was Bashier commanding a Runabout to begin with? isnt he despretly needed on Sickbay since you expect lots of injured People from the upcoming Battle?

[@Penburner1]

The changeling sneaked on-board and killed the crew. It then assumed one of their voices to launch the runabout

[@anthonyvogel9328]

It was a klingon present at ds9. That mean a few soldiers. The bajorn would agreed to it. Because of sisko ask them off screen. Also it was only one bird of prey that came later. So I wouldn't call two ships a fleet

[@robertfarrell4972]

I always thought the dominions first mistake was not taking ds9 straight away, whoever controls ds9 controls the wormhole

[@MrBottlecapBill]

They would have especially since they were reclaiming lost Cardassian territory. It would literally be THE primary target. Writing in trek is always squishy like this though.

[@jasonfischer8946]

Maybe the Dominion was planning ahead to allow DS9 to stand so that the supernova plan could be executed. I guess destroying an enemy fleet is better than occupying one space station.

[@WesStacey]

my guess is that at that at the time they still hadn't figured out/had resources in place to stabilize the wormhole so they didn't want to run the risk of the federation closing it down before they fully established their beachhead in the alpha quadrant. So they came in, did JUST enough to placate the Cardassians (killed the maquis, retook all the territory lost to the Klingons), then stopped not directly attacking the federation to prevent open hostilities then started milking their existing supply lines for all they were worth and working to establish alpha quadrant resources and get a changeling in place to "stablize" the wormhole so the federation couldn't shut it down, then continuing to milk that gamma quadrant supply line until the wormhole was mined at which point there was no longer a reason to maintain the peace and they declared war and took DS9 to get the supply lines to the gamma quadrant back open again.

[@MrBottlecapBill]

@@WesStacey Maybe. The Dominian did always try to conquer politically first so you make a compelling arguement. Or they figured if they took DS9 right away they wouldn't have a strong enough beach head or enough resources to really hold it. It would be pretty easy for the other powers to bottleneck their supply line through the wormhole. By taking the policial alliance route they were able to set up ship yards and cloning facilities in Cardassian space first without solidifying an alliance against them. An invasion suddenly becomes a mission of mercy which they knew the federation and romulans would willingly accept because they were already trying to play the neutrality game and were reluctant to act during the Klingon attacks.

[@briandavion]

that would have meant immediate war with the federation. one which would have been hard to manage given the choke point of the wormhole. by doing as they did it meant they had time to move into cardassia, bring in several fleets. and solidify their cardassian infastructure. (set up ketricel white factories, jemhadar breeding facilities. shipyards etc) by delying the dominion made it much easier to begin the war.

[@lorenandloisstevenson3858]

It is like a mirror of the events after WW1 for Japan. Japan was promised territories for aiding the Allies in the war, then were laughed out Versailles. But we forget that when Pearl Harbor happened. Not justification just looking whole picture. Two wrongs never make a right, and both learned after siding with the losers in a devastating war

[@FANtomCore]

The Cardasians should of never jumped ship on the Dominion, at that point, the Founders considered the Cardasians more of the target than the Federation, and made them pay worse than the damage done in the Occupation. An ironic twist of fate for the Cardasians. They feared they were losing there Super Power supremency in the Alpha Quadrant only to accelerate that fact to near extermination of there people. They were the biggest losers.

[@ryanarment5393]

From their perspective it was the only choice. They fully understood that they were making a deal with the devil, but from their position, they had no choice.It wasn't just about the loss in prestige. The Klingon invasion had completely obliterated their infrastructure. They had massive outbreaks of diseases that were treatable in ordinary conditions, they were suffering from food shortages, and were being picked apart by the klingons and the maquis. The only alpha quadrant power that tried to offer any help was the federation and that was limited to condemning the klingon invasion. In spite of the federation being fully aware of the humanitarian crisis, they offered no help. Granted the cardassians had fostered bad relationships with virtually every power in the alpha quadrant so they had no one to blame but themselves for the lack of help. The dominion offered them protection from their enemies, help rebuilding their infrastructure, and a chance at revenge against the people who they felt had wronged them.

[@qdllc]

The changeling didn’t have to disable Defiant’s weapons. As computerized as the ships are, all you need is to bury a code that refuses to let the weapons fire on a specific ship.

[@jamiengo2343]

Well, I mean the Federation engaging against the Klingons in one drawn out war is kind of against the entire point of the Klingons heading to Cardassia in the first place, which was their casus belli for the war, attempting to destroy any Dominion presence in Cardassia. Both the Klingons and Federation know that such a war would weaken both sides exponentially.

[@fullmetalgamers1276]

Would you tell your new Klingon friends where they could and couldn't station their fleet

[@mysticranger6894]

Dont they warp as soon as they get out of dock front ds9? Isnt that inside the solar system?

[@thelifedyslexic]

All covered in my two favourite episodes in DS9.

[@Jarsia]

Now Lore, I know that whole business with the runabout's shields seems far fetched, but starfleet designed them to be a nimble craft. They're so manoeuvrable in fact they can actually evade plot holes. Also while I can see why the cardassians would choose to join the dominion, and while you do make valid points, you're somewhat overlooking the half century of aggression against the alpha quadrant on the cardassians part that preceded it. I mean sure the bajorans got the worst of that, but they also had fought a war with the federation and dont seem to have made many other friends, and given their fascistic, racially superior, highly nationalistic society it's not hard to see why. The point is if the cardassians had played nice, I'm sure the federation would be far more willing to help. The cardassians arent free of blame for where they wound up.

[@BlackCloudBoss]

Jarsia ironically the feds did try to help with the whole ordeal over the stolen industrial replicators. If think the cardassians had too much pride to play nice with the federation, and the dominion offered a chance for them to reclaim their glory instead of being assimilated into the federation.

[@Jarsia]

@@BlackCloudBoss yes, cardassians arrogance has always been an impediment to peace. As painful as the dominion war was for them, I do believe they'll emerge a better people for it. Damar had to be a broken man before he saw that cardassians needed to find a better way. So too hopefully out of all the pain and destruction of the war cardassians as a whole might see that the rest of the Alpha Quadrant need not be enemies and start to play nice for a change.

[@detectivewiggles]

I think the gang feels _personally_ betrayed by Dukat because he hid his plan from them all, but they can also probably see why Cardassian society overall would want to join the Dominion.

[@fwmeese]

Ok with the defiant not opening fire on the runabout, they were millions of KM away when they learned the runabout was going toward the Bajoran sun. And the defiant’s weapons range is what, 100k km? Most star charts have the wormhole and DS9 further from the sun than Bajor. So they had to go to warp to stop the runabout. Now that doesn’t mean they could have opened fire on it when they dropped out of warp but the continuity gaff you’re talking about isn’t really a gaff.

[@LoreReloaded]

So..you missed the joke..

[@fwmeese]

Lore Reloaded clearly it went right over my head.

[@cadengrace5466]

The problems for Cardassia started long before the Klingon invasion. Several hundred years before the TNG era events, the Cardassian people gave up civilian government for military rule. While military rule could provide them with the determination to find badly needed resources - namely food, it also lead the Union to rely less on diplomacy and self-sufficiency. This is where it all went wrong for them. Over the coming decades since military rule took hold, diplomacy was eroded to a point of non-existence in favor of the effort of the Obsidian Order. Likewise, the infrastructure of the Union was designed to support military operations, not civilian. Military infrastructure is easy to damage and does not bounce back quickly. Worse, it is usually either fully functional or fully non-functional. Some time after the military formation of the Union, an 18 year conflict erupted between the Union and the Klingons. This conflict is considered to be a draw by both sides, but the smaller Union paid a higher price for the effort. Within a year, the Union went to war with the Federation and it would last 18 years and cost hundreds of thousands of Cardassian lives. The Federation did not regard this as war, merely a series of border incidents and Federation losses are usually not mentioned, indicating a the disparity in power between the states. Both of these conflicts wore down the Union and with only a military infrastructure in place to support the civilian population rationing took place and with that starvation and famine because military logistics are not designed for sustained operations. Every where that the Union had an occupation ongoing they pressed the subjugated peoples harder until revolts were breaking out everywhere. Those planets in revolt nearer to the Federation sought Federation mediation and found some peace. Bajor was one. Within five years of the cessation of the Bajoran Occupation, the Klingons attacked the Union. At this point it was inevitable that the Dominion would find a foothold here. Almost from the time of the transfer of power from civilian to military rule, Cardassia was on the downward spiral. While it managed to feed its people most of the time, it spent its resources on military and intelligence gathering efforts and not on stabilizing the Union. The Union was hollow and it took almost no effort to knock a whole in it and bring it all crashing down.

[@kristiankepley5944]

To be fair to the cardassians They needed the military government at first given how shitty it was before space travel. Not defending them after

[@CADJewellerySkills]

Okay okay. We get it. DS9’s writers bit off more than they could chew with this plot. Every episode from this season featured numerous plot holes bigger than the wormhole next to the station.

[@robertagu5533]

I always NEVER liked the idea that a Starfleet preparing for a hard war WITH THE BORG, having such a hard time against the Dominion.. it shoulda been OVERKILL for the Federation and their Anti Borg fleet shoulda been easily capable of bitch slapping Dominion forces left an right. EVEN the typically bloodthirsty Klingons were tossing aside old differences and preparing to wage a brutal long war against the Dominion... Everyone shoulda got the hint and been ready to help... instead of the Dominion becoming a sorta space nazi/fascist force and launching a space blitzkrieg that nearly steamrolled them all

[@MarginalSC]

It wasn't the best decision Dukat ever made given that the Changelings still held a grudge over that whole attempted genocide thing. They were fine with killing every single Cardassian during the course of the war.

[@hawhite2000]

Maybe the Bajorans were fine with the Klingons helping to defend the station and their planet because they knew the Cardassians would try to retake their planet, plunging their entire populace back into slavery. Not to mention the emissary of the prophets recommended this course of action. If the messenger of God says something might be a good idea as a believer you might just do it.

[@SupremeCommander1]

Why is it such a big deal with going to warp inside a solar system?

[@classicforreal]

*the writers forgetting there were 3 knocked out crew on the Yukon before it explodes*

[@weldonwin]

I think the Yukon crew were supposed to be dead and if it was a choice between sacrificing three officers and the destruction of the entire star system, you can bet they would make the same choice every time

[@classicforreal]

@@weldonwin yeah I knew someone would make that argument and forget it's just tv

[@aceskip8691]

Great video

[@kostakatsoulis2922]

Wait wait wait, what do you mean the blood screening doesn't work? How does it not work?

[@LoreReloaded]

It was able to be fabricated and faked twice that we know of in the series

[@kostakatsoulis2922]

@@LoreReloaded I remember the one where changeling Bashir faked Eddingtons blood screening, but I always thought he just slipped a bit of his own matter into the vial in the little hand flick or whatever he did before presenting it to everyone

[@Okami1313]

When the Red Army entered Poland during WW2 many Poles sided with them. This despite the fact that the Russians had only a few years before made a deal with the Germans to split Poland between them. Sometimes in the immediate threat of danger people can overlook one group's atrocities to protect themselves from another

[@jimitalent9239]

You act like it is ridiculous that the Changeling infiltrator was able to make the runabout immune to the defiants weapons, except later when the Dominion takes DS9 Weyoun is surprised that the station is able to defend themselves because Federation shielding has always been useless against their weapons and the Federation had only had very limited unsuccessful battles against the Dominion, it really doesn't seem like much of a stretch for the Dominion to have shielding tech that was immune to Federation Weapons at that point.

[@LoreReloaded]

It is..yea..

[@sundoga4961]

The Klingon contingent aboard DS9 is simple to explain - on paper, they're Starfleet Security. Sure, they're from an allied state rather than a Federation member world, but they're under Starfleet command (nominally true), and hey, the Bajorans don't have a problem with Worf, do they? The Bajoran government might not like this sophistry, but they aren't going to make a big fuss about it in the middle of a crisis. As long as they have a good reason to look the other way, they will, at least until things settle down.

[@Merennulli]

If it was merely seeking aid and being stupid enough to think that the Dominion would play nice, I could see the point .But this is after being clearly told how the Dominion handles solids, and a clearly stated power grab by Dukat - not Cardassia, Dukat. This was a calculated sacrifice of the Cardassian people by Dukat. He had been humbled, and his efforts for his people weren't getting him the recognition he felt he deserved. But he was stuck being the good soldier, defending Cardassia with his own blood...until he saw an opportunity. And I emphasize that it was a calculated move and a sacrifice of his people. He knew what the Dominion's reputation was. He knew the Dominion had created the circumstances he was in. He knew the Dominion had already manipulated the Obsidian Order into a trap and slaughtered them. They may have been political enemies, but those were a lot of ships that could have helped against the Klingons, who again the Dominion tricked into attacking them after doing that. And he directly knew how the Dominion treated those who opposed it from previous episodes, so he knew that a bunch of Cardassians trying to exterminate the Founders was the reddest of red flags for the Dominion now wanting to be buddies. And despite the fact that it meant putting his people to the Dominion's knife, he knew it would get his political opponents decimated, and give him an opportunity to stand over all those who defied him previously as he lead the charge, at least visibly. It was just a pretense for Dominion interference on his side of the wormhole, but it was a pretense that had him in a grand position. One which he apparently thought he could leverage into being seen as useful to the Dominion. In some respects, he seemed to be gunning for the Vorta's job in his interactions with the Founder and Weyun.

[@archades115]

I am still completely baffled as to how and why the Romulans came to defend DS9... when they did... and then turn around and prove to be adversarial towards the Federation. This would imply that a Romulan Senator or Admiral was replaced by a changeling, someone with that kind of power, and coordinated with changeling-Bashir to wipe out a Romulan fleet.

[@bwg4608]

That's possible but it could also be that the Romulans were willing to ally with the Federation until they saw the Federation's incredibly weak response to the Dominion trying to nova the Bajoran sun (an insane act of aggression to which the Federation did absolutely nothing in response.) The Federation's failure to effectively respond to such a clear act of war would make the Feds look incredibly weak, and thus could easily convince the Romulans that the Feds (and Klingons) would be worthless as allies and that they were better off trying to cut a deal with the Dominion.

[@archades115]

@@bwg4608 That is a fair point. I had not considered that.

[@travisdavis6778]

Wow never thought of that as I always wondered about the romulans flip flopping, it may also be that when war broke out and the feds lost big immediately that they didn't see much hope

[@pollall2793]

I frankly feel no sympathy for the Cardassians, but I can grant them that they made the right decision, I cannot blame, nor be upset at them, what they did, as you said, the Vulcans would claim it’s logical.

[@simonwillis1529]

Sometimes after years watching and enjoying trek now watching these so many mistakes I missed man I must be blind

[@earthhound]

I bet you regret siding with them against the Klingons now. Don't you Sisko!

[@theindooroutdoorsman]

Benjamin Maxwell didn't do much good for Federation/Cardassian relations...

[@TravelWithCesarin]

@@theindooroutdoorsman Considering the status of Cardassia, the constant lies, the Central Command lack of real justice system and the dirty usage of the Obsidian Order.. yeah no surprise Benjamin would give the finger to a loose canon like the Cardassians vs the more predictable Kllingdoms.

[@LanMandragon1720]

@@theindooroutdoorsman Did you watch the episode? Maxwell was 100% correct about them preparing an invasion...Picard having to come stop him literally prevented that from happening. That's right Maxwell's actions prevented another war. Even granting that they were very extreme.

[@ottersirotten4290]

I dont see an actuall Betrayal by Cardassia, in order to betray anyone you have to owe them Loyalty to begin with. Cardassia or any other Faction for that matter only owes Loyalty to them self and to theyre Allys to some degree

[@Haroldo2606]

What if Federation were not a union of nations but a god? And if we blame Federation for being a political entity and not a god?

[@usprulse]

What you said tng (picard) pacifist Sisko (realist) more military minded. The show reflected on it, the space battle looked it helped the story. I wish with the currentlt technology we made an awesome scene 😭 sadly we get copy paste ships.. And pewpew sounds

[@travisdavis6778]

I understood the cardassians joining Dominion but then they got greedy...

[@toddfraser3353]

Being that the Cardassians were an empire building culture just a few years ago. Only to have their power limited by the Federation, then added insult by the Klingons. It makes sense with renewed power they would go back to the old ways. It usually takes generations for a culture to change.

[@frankjones195]

The Cardassians were manipulated, by the changelings, and made to suffer some, so that they would run to the Dominion for help.

[@ottersirotten4290]

They were on the best Way to become a klingon Subject, not much Manipulation needed to take ANY Help you can get in such Situation

[@frankjones195]

@@ottersirotten4290 That is very true they were going to be Klingon subjugated, but if you recall a high ranking Klingon was a changeling and pushed for the war. And the Federation couldn't help.

[@ottersirotten4290]

@@frankjones195 Abosolut, my point was just about "The Cardassians were manipulated" wich i dont believe since nobody needs to be manipulated towards "hey its probably a good idea ro save my own a.."^^

[@scottmurphy4946]

At this point, Lore Reloaded should be able to write all DS9 episode scripts word for word.

[@LoreReloaded]

An ex girlfriend would literally turn any episode on, show one frame and i could usually guess the episode

[@LoreReloaded]

I have so much useless knowledge

[@scottmurphy4946]

Hey at least you can spin the story into interesting content

[@IncredibleLBO]

When did the Klingon start attacking the Bajorans other than when The Klingon turn on the Federation. The Klingon declare War on the Federation not Bajor. It was only when the Klingon attack DS9 that fought the Bajorans. You make it sound as if the Klingon were the Cardassian killing the Bajorans

[@MAZE4]

The Cardassians while being an empire, were clearly inferior to the federation, and the Klingon and Romulan empires, the breen came in at the end with their energy dampening weapons, but once that was figured out the Dominion was screwed

[@stephendean2896]

logic can almost justify any actions The United States had a similar problem in the 1960s with Cuba missile crisis Was it logical for Cuba to seek help from the enemy of their enemy, yes Was it a sane idea, oh hell no the world almost ended

[@TheKarotechia]

And who was mainly at fault creating that situation? Who was best equiped to avoid it? The government of Cuba, like the cardassian council, had their backs against the wall while the US of 1950 and the Federation of DS9 were the dominant powers i their eras.

[@mr.s2005]

True the U.S. was supporting a lousy dictatorship there and did interfere with their politics, so like so like the Cardassians they went to another source of power....and once again proved that replacing one dictatorship with another for short term reasons is about as dumb as you can get.

[@hawhite2000]

I don't know if Cardassia requested aid from the Federation to fend off the Klingons. The Federation would act to prevent genocide but also wouldn't try to interfere in other people's affairs. I can understand why Cardassia would join the Dominion but I can't say it was the right thing to do even from their perspective. What did they really know about the Dominion? How could they have judged their intentions well enough to join?

[@ottersirotten4290]

"What did they really know about the Dominion? " They knew they got theyre a... savagely beaten by the Klingons and faced a very near Future as klingon Subject. They knew the Dominion offered Help, sometimes thats more than enough

[@kingkrush4734]

The Dominion plot to make the Bajoran Sun bacoma a supernovanever never made sense to me. It would destroy Bajor and commit genocide, no doubt. BUT: A supernova can only expand at the speed of light. Assuming DS9 is as far from the bajoran sun as Jupiter from Sol is, that woulf mean it wouldn't impact therer before 40 minutes. Not enough time to safe the station, but surely enough to evacuate all personel and the most valuable assets to the fleet and go to warp. ALSO: The supernova coulf potetially harm/destroy the wormhole and make all plans for Dominion control of the Alpha and Beta Quadrant become void.

[@Rob_Thorsman]

Plus if it didn't destroy or close the wormhole, the Prophets/wormhole aliens would be PISSED. And we've seen what they can do.

[@travisdavis6778]

Anyone curiouse what would have happened if the feds did go to war immediately before months of reinforcements made a war so costly

[@lancep2002]

Dukat did nothing wrong

[@travisdavis6778]

Except sell his people out to gain power

[@LeoInterVir]

CBS and VIACOM have just merged, they and Star Trek are one again.

[@rotimika]

Your not wrong

[@vukodlak3962]

Cardassia DID NOT betray the Alpha Quadrant, Ducat did. The Dominion fleet didn't just drive out the Klingons it eliminated Cardassia's democratically elected civilian government and put Ducat in charge. Assuming that government wasn't also replaced by changelings who were intentionally losing the war with the Klingons to make the people more respective to authoritarian rule.

[@ottersirotten4290]

In order to betray someone you have to owe him Loyalty to begin with and ANY StarTrek Nation is firstly loyal to them self, further we dont know it was a democraticly elected Gov we only know that Cardassia suffered the worst Defeats in their History up to that Point under said Gov, so probably not many Crdis droped a Tear after them

[@wakefieldallan]

Oh thank you, one of the best places on YT to get away from the policital craziness... well non Federation political craziness. :)

[@shawnclement648]

What do you mean 'craziness'? Federation is the largest faction. Federation has systems in BOTH Alpha and Beta quadrants. Federation has colonies within the borders of other factions, Federation has surrounded the lone systems of neutral factions, Federation forced itself on the Gamma Quadrant, and made certain to invade Delta quadrant space. It is clear that the Federation is the greatest threat to the Alpha and Beta quadrants. It was the Federation who brought the Borg into the quadrants centuries earlier than expected. So, let us at least be honest with ourselves. The Federation has expanded drastically faster than all of the other neighboring factions combined. Just because they expand in a more covert manner than others, doesn't mean they aren't just as aggressive as the others. For a planet which has 'condemned' colonization Terrans certain place their personal profits above their neighbors. The Federation is evil and should be destroyed.

[@wakefieldallan]

@@shawnclement648 Not sure what go you going, I meant the current year insanity with America's Left and Right. I never thought sbout the federation surrounded non-allied single systems, but it only makes sense. Think about that episode where Riker gets injured on that planet. the leader told Picard to leave them alone - well the federation did leave that solar system alone, but its surrounding areas belong to the federation, so yeah you're alone... but surrounded. You definitely have an argument for the federation being at least chaotic neutral.

[@robertisaac4357]

Sounds to me your facts are wrong....It was the cardi's not the klingons who were the oppressors of Bajor........

[@LoreReloaded]

Where do you think i call the klingons the oppressors of bajor..bonus question...if i made such a monumental mistake...why do you figure you are the only one to catch it?

[@cedrictaylor08]

If it was up to me I would have hit the dominion as soon as they went to cardassians space