Star Trek Voyager Ruminations: S3E11 The Q And The Grey

[@rickardspaghetti]

Never excuse yourself for "talking a little bit", Arch. That's why we come here, after all. :)

[@zachz1018]

It was brilliantly written. It seems to me that a nearly omnipotent being was having' a power struggle with himself, about getting old. mid-life crisis or some crap. Here we saw 3 versions of Q. Upon examining Janeway's level of consciousness he thought that allowing her conscious mind to perceive the state of the being known as Q, in the form of a civil war. that was likely taught in her "human history class" Since Q was literally tearing itself apart. When her crew entered the continuum they could not perceive reality any other way, their previous quantum entanglement (with Janeway) aligned their conscious reality with hers. and thus they too experienced a civil war style continuum. because it could be no other way. Janeway convinced Q that the best way for him to fill the hole inside of him to replace the part of Q that committed suicide was to look within and experience oneself allowing Q to grow as a being. Thus Q, did what Q does, solved all the problems in an instant and went back to being awesome. How could you have possibly missed that I mean it was right there...

[@fatsqueek2657]

Really awesome rumination. These never fail to put a smile on my face, even if I've never seen all of Voyager.

[@KertaDrake]

I'd like to think the whole thing was actually yet another test... Testing how humans act when interacting with beings at the most distant end of the evolutionary scale if in a situation where they believe they are actually on a level playing field for once. See whether they go for peace or try to take out their competition!

[@robinstone2582]

I love the before and after format for this one

[@Netherfly]

New theory on the Q: what if they're not super-evolved and don't possess magic technology either? What if they're just normal beings of the same basic social, technological and biological space as the humans or Klingons? What if their omnipotence is not innate or produced, but rather imbued by the continuum itself? This would explain why Q, personally, is so fixated on humans (maybe the Q were originally human, or something very similar); how Q could lose his powers (by being "cut off" from the continuum while he was outside of it); and how the humans in Q and the Greg could interact with the Q on the same level. Personally I prefer the more obvious Q-is-God interpretation, but I think this idea makes a degree of sense. IE the original Q were basically transformed by the environment of the continuum similarly to when whats-his-name was deified in that TOS episode with the Galactic Barrier.

[@Lorerunner]

I actually rather like that idea... though I also agree that the Q should just be the Q aka super powerful etc. but I never thought of the Q's power-base being the Continuum itself. It could also explain, if one were willing to be generous, the theme behind Hide & Q which (at least by my interpretation) is: You have to earn what you have. IE, the Q never did earn it hence their cultural stagnation and general draconian perspective.

[@Edbrad]

What if Q is the universe/god and he likes to invent games to make things interesting, and most of all he really likes it when his creation recognises reality. Only the reality isn't just that Q is god, Picard is also god as is everything. That's why Q said Picard was responsible, when clearly Q was. It's an irreconcilable paradox, unless Picard is Q and Q is the universe, and the universe is everything.

[@bygonebebygones8503]

Why is there mechwarrior music in this lol??

[@akephalos2415]

The Unstoppable Puggernaut You're my god damn hero. I have combed hundreds of YT vids (including this entire Voyager retrospective) scouring old game soundtracks trying to place this friggin' snippet for weeks. It feels so much easier to breathe now. What a weight gone. Beers on me.

[@Netherfly]

7:39 What did Enterprise do to "neuter" threatening aspects of the setting?

[@Lorerunner]

Debatably the Klingons, though what comes to mind immediately is actually the Nausicaans. And... I dunno the rest is harder to define but I feel like Enterprise made the overall setting less... maybe it's the near-total lack of continuity in the first three seasons with the rest of everything? I dunno.

[@Netherfly]

Archengeia There are a lot of things ENT did to the detriment of the setting, which I'm not even going to try to get into now since I'm typing on a tablet, but I never really got the sense that they neutered any alien races/threats. I don't really remember the Nausicaans ever being a big deal in the other shows, though. One thing I actually think ENT did well was present more rounded characters to the recurring aliens, both old and new. The Suliban, Xindi, Vulcans (kind of), Andorians, Organians and, yes, even the Klingons. (Romulan got shafted, though). Regarding the Klingons, I'm especially fond of the episode where Archer stands trial. Because it is the first and only episode in the totality of the franchise to present the Klingons as something other than their archetype. It was very refreshing to see another aspect of Klingon culture, and that--for me at least--earned a lot of goodwill.

[@Lorerunner]

***** I confess a fondness for how they did Andorians, but I also have to admit that sits almost fully on the shoulders of Jeffrey Combs, the man who made me actually like Weyoun.

[@Netherfly]

Archengeia I love Jeffrey Combs? Have you seen The 4400? I like him in that even more. (Ira Behr was involved in it too).

[@HolyknightVader999]

The Q couldn't defeat a bunch of paltry humans that a Jedi could've easily punked. Case in point: Voyager Crew: "Stand down, Vader! You and your Sith cohorts cannot stand against us! We have Q weapons that can kill godlike beings with a squeeze of the trigger!" Vader: "Oh, really? How's about (waves his hand) YOU PEOPLE KILL EACH OTHER?" Voyager Crew: "Yes sir. We must kill each other." (They shoot and kill each other with the Q weapons.) Voyager Crew: "You will come with us under custody, Master Yoda, since we now have Q Weapons, which not even your lightsaber can deflect!" Yoda: "Mind over matter, young one. Drop those guns, you will." Voyager Crew: "I don't think so. You will stand down now! Whoa-" (Yoda uses the Force to lift up the Q weapons, then Force-push the Voyager crew away) Yoda: "Good thing that my ally is the Force. A powerful ally it is, still." (Uses the Force to lift and point the Q guns at the Voyager Crew) Voyager Crew: "RUN! HE'S GOT Q WEAPONS! RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!"

[@oddish4352]

Technobabble solves all problems. That's a core aspect of Trek.

[@HolyknightVader999]

Contrast the Q Civil to the war between the Ones in Clone Wars. It's far more reasonable and well-thought-out.

[@DJonScott]

Dude, love your work, but you left out part of the joke: When Q said, "Mine's bigger," the jump-cut revealed half his face was covered by a tattoo. That wasn't very funny. But when Janeway said, "not big enough," that was at least a little funny, because it implied she wanted his whole face covered.

[@stanislavkostarnov2157]

as for them hurting the Q (holding the Q at gunpoint) I believe that was Delancey-Q's work rather than anything the crew did.... knowing the future, he twisted reality so they could.

[@briangardner5905]

This is one of the most fun episodes with some of the funniest lines and gags and always a joy to watch. I think we sometimes take Star Trek too seriously. With the addition of Suzy Plaxton as Q's wife wow how fun. I do not read Chakotoy as being jealous as much as concerned about the safety of Janeway. That whole tatoo thing is hilarious and fun and funny. Hey check out our fan series - Quarks Space Station on You Tube and have fun with that - produced here in Las Vegas. Brian Gardner - Prop Master

[@jamespepper8671]

OK this is your best episode given the return.

[@primroan5354]

12:43 got a good chuckle out of me. But it's interesting, the way you feel about how Voyager treated the Q is kinda of similar to how I feel certain aspects of Mass Effect 2 and 3 treated the Geth. I feel like this is a danger in fiction and storytelling. When writing lore, it's kind of easy. What I mean by that is when you perhaps write something in the Imperium, say, the Scions, what you write about them is pretty much it. To use another example, the Dwemer in The Elder Scrolls. These things exist in lore almost in entirety, an nowhere else. Granted I may be misrepresenting the Scions since I only know a bit about what you talked about in the one Imperium stream I was able to catch. In lore you can write more freely. But when the lore comes "down to earth" if you will, like say when and if we actually meet a couple of Dwemer (besides the one in Morrowind) and we they play a role in a narrative, things get complicated. Same deal with the Q. They needed to be "humanized" for lack of a better term, and most plots of these shows deal with very human issues, right? That's the problem I had with the portrayel of the Geth and Legion. The whole issue of him talking about having a soul. I felt that did a big disservice to the entire concept of the Geth. Machines who spend the majority of their existence in a collective, who only use corporeal bodies for tasks that require them. The "mobile platforms" as they're called. I didn't like how for them to "evolve" and change, they had to become more like organics, regardless of how that theme tied into the greater ME theming. But Legion needed to be written that way, because he's a companion, because he needed to make dry witty banter, because the only way for players to associate and grant understanding to the plights of machines... is for them to be more organic... Maybe I'm off base here, I don't know. Maybe it's hard to separate the cold calculating logic of AI and make people care about it, and more importantly, _believe_ that they deserve understanding, and not just destruction. What do you think? I feel like there are only certain ways you write all powerful beings, or collectives in fiction, and those limitations are both a writers greatest ally, and their greatest enemy. Keep them all powerful, but vague and mysterious as arguably most of TNG did. Or more heavily involve them in plot, but in doing so they must be brought down to the level of the cast. A level where say, humans holding them at gunpoint makes sense.... except... well you covered that in the video. If they aren't written a certain way, they are walking ticking time bombs that could destroy a narrative.

[@brandonbarnes1942]

i really must thankyou for having mw soundtracks

[@GreenCauldron08]

I laughed at the "My tattoo is bigger" joke! I didn't even make the connection to it being a joke about penis size, though, cuz I was wayyy younger Also your idea of a society where every once in a while they just decide to make large societal changes sounds a lot like something we'd see in the original series or early TNG. Fun concept. Also, I think I'd probably prefer living in a society like that XD

[@SchneeflockeMonsoon]

Susie Q... I can’t believe I’ve never through of that.

[@tomgriffiths2622]

Deep space nine i still rewatch bu t voyager?

[@EnvisionerWill]

"Mine's bigger!" --not funny. "Not big enough!" --funny.

[@Jcewazhere]

I'm totally not watching this while clearing out the phish queue at work >.>

[@mr51406]

Bewildered at 1st viewing. Quite enjoyable this time. Disappointments: 1) It should have been compelling as a sequel to “Death Wish” should have been; 2) the metaphor (US Civil War) could have been better chosen (non-Americans, non-history buffs won’t get it); 3) there is a huge disconnect between part 1 on the ship (Noël Coward play) and part 2 (aping Gone with the Wind); 4) if you’re going to do farce, you have to work on many levels of wit, it can’t be obvious, facile. 🔹I do love Janeway’s “Not big enough!” and “That’s it?!?” lines. I like that Janeway challenges Q with humour. We gay men in the audience enjoy Janeway being bodacious and a good 🍆 rejoinder. 🚩I understand that the deflation of the Q (and the Borg) can be disappointing because it makes them less threatening, and, this is the risk, less interesting. But the deflation is necessary and inevitable as we get to know them better. 🔸Why I like the episode: 1) DeLancey and Plakson and Mulgrew working together and the few delightful moments; 2) I like comedy of manners and silly innuendo, and that’s a question of taste (I’m an unrepentant Lwaxanna fan after all); 3) frankly, DeLancey could read a phone book I’d still watch and he’d find a way to make it entertaining.

[@Yura-Sensei]

I thought Q wasnt actually shot, and he pretended to be hurt for comedic or tactical value

[@roystonsbailey]

Voyager defanged both the Q and the Borg

[@5whiskersgaming]

8i}) Balls deep! Your war on drugs is a civil war against your people and must be stopped. #Ingress #PokemonGO

[@oddish4352]

The war on drugs happened because the American people are too compassionate for their own good. If we legalize hard drugs like crank, crack, and horse, we destroy our economy caring for addicts. And we can't emotionally handle leaving a horse addict to die in the street if he can't pay for medical care. The only workable solution the people can handle is to ban the drugs themselves.

[@Nethseaar]

@@oddish4352 The cost of imprisoning obscene numbers of peaceful people, often for life sentences, and of making drug running exponentially more profitable (thus enabling cartels, and bringing the violence that surrounds them because they have no legal recourse) is far, far greater than any rehabilitation costs that might hypothetically be incurred were illegal drugs to be made legal. Portugal is a revealing case study. Having legalized all drugs, they are nonetheless not facing an epidemic of addiction. The "war on drugs" enables the CIA to launder money for black operations, to selectively devastate minority communities, and to easily frame political opponents by planting drugs. Further, it enables crony-privatized prisons to profit by enslaving nonviolent offenders. If you want what's best for addicts, legalize all drugs so that they can seek help without fear of imprisonment and felony status. Such peaceful people, once imprisoned, often are trained in criminal activities by their fellow inmates, and then have little recourse because of the difficulty of getting work as a felon. The war on drugs creates repeat offenders in many categories of crime -- end the drug war and reduce the number of repeat offenders. If you want what's best for the economy, allow the free market to bring the price of drugs down to such low levels that the black market for drugs ceases to exist. No illegal drugs means no drug cartels, which means less violence and crime. Destroy the power of the cartels, weaken the CIA, allow the addicted to get help, stop enslaving peaceful people and forcing them into criminal lifestyles -- Any way you cut it, there are only benefits. Also think: Since drugs are regularly smuggled into top-security prisons -- that is, some of the most highly regulated environments that exist -- then the war on drugs is futile, and will never be won.

[@oddish4352]

@@Nethseaar As I said, until we gain the emotional capacity to let an addict face the consequences of their own choices and die in the street if necessary, the war will be unwinnable. We can only hold off our own destruction, and we have done so for decades.

[@Nethseaar]

@@oddish4352 Granted: The average person may be operating under some delusion that using the proxy violence of the state against peaceful people is somehow beneficial to addicts. (It's not). That said, I am confident that legislators are not operating under the same delusion. They prosecute the war on drugs because it is profitable to special interest groups. So, either the average person must wake up to the actual harm that the war on drugs does to addicts, or we must somehow make the war no longer profitable to those special interest groups.

[@oddish4352]

@@Nethseaar I never said it WAS beneficial to addicts. It's not. The only purpose of the war on drugs is that it discourages people from becoming addicts in the first place. If we legalize that poison, more people will try it, more people will become addicts, and we'll bankrupt ourselves caring for them. If we as a people had the guts to let addicts face the ugly and destructive consequences of their own choices, legalization would be a potential solution.

[@1skrmsp1]

With some ire (because I hate what Voyager did to Borg), I jokingly said before Q never sent Voyager crew home because he knew they would ruin Borg. its like letting a plagued person on the way to his/her town. I am surprised that you actually analyzed to the same conclusion but without the joking part. lol.

[@MidnightSt]

"Purchase the right to procreate" is a stupid way to put it. "Earn the right to procreate", yes, of course. And the act of earning that right could be interpreted as a "purchase", you give the person what they want and value (emotional/intellectual/material fulfillment, or whatever else, doesn't matter), and for that (if what you gave was enough value and the right type of value), they'll give you the consent to procreate with them. So yes, technically it could be viewed as a purchase. But really, it's an incredibly stupid and devaluing way of looking at it.

[@stanislavkostarnov2157]

know this is ages ago, but... my nickel on the grass... I do not believe that the Q was actually interested in the erotic aspect of this, but Q respects natural laws in his own way.... he wanted to do the ritual of mating as he saw fit *(with the actual physiological aspect probably being something of a process both mysterious & altogether unrelated) also, I believe that the Q was right, a Q messiah would have indeed been by far the greatest contribution Janeway could have made to the Universe, Janeway is uniquely Q like, & I do believe he was true earnest in that proposal/wish.... not for Janeway, but for the continuum.

[@tiffanyshank8837]

Just wanted to make sure I said "out loud" ... the tattoo joke itself wasn't funny to me, but your retelling of it was hilarious. I really like how you can make fun of the authors when they do things that are genuinely dumb.

[@Flaris]

Definitely a memorable episode if nothing else. I think the theory on the Borg definitely makes sense. There has to be something slowing them down and keeping them mostly in one spot. Otherwise they should just expand so quickly that everything would already be Borg. Whether they are doing so because they feel threatened or because an entire universe being 100% Borg would be incredibly boring I'm not sure. Not exactly sure what the Q are, but they certainly have quite a bit of power. The really bad pun, wasn't the worst thing I've ever heard. But it certainly wasn't all that funny either. Maybe Voyager can stay up there in terms of importance if you consider them as being used as a tool to nerf the Borg. The existence of Threshold and other bad episodes might just be worth it if you read into it like that.

[@Netherfly]

Eh, I'm not feeling this Borg thing. Keep in mind that for all that VOY "nerfed" the Borg, VOY was the show that built them up to be so ridiculously powerful in the first place. A huge territory, thousands of Cubes transwarp... are all from VOY. The Borg presented in TNG are very different, as evidenced by the fact that they only ever appear with a single, lone ship. TNG made the Borg seem more... nomadic. Remember how they scanned the Enterprise? The implication was that they would only assimilate something if it could improve their own technological level. They didn't need to assimilate for organic components, so if you were a ship or planet with less advanced technology than the borg--or more advanced tech they wouldn't be able to adapt--you were safe. TNG basically set the Borg up as maraudering heroin-addicts, constantly roaming the galaxy for their next fix. Each ship was a big threat, but only an immediate threat--it was VOY that transformed them into omnipotent bogeymen. I don't think the Q had to deal with the Borg because I don't think the Borg were ever much of a threat. Like Guinan said, they were a force of nature. An interpretation I particularly liked because it seemed to imply a degree of inevitability--should all the Borg in the galaxy be wiped out, eventually another civilization would repeat the same mistakes and become the 'new' Borg.

[@hossrex]

As much as I love John DeLancie, and his portrayal of Q, the character himself is fundamentally (and incurably) flawed. Omniscience and omnipotence are two of his explicit character traits, which are both anathema regarding growth and change. Short of calling out an 'unreliable narrator', he can not experience the aspects of existence which are most central to being a "character".

[@kellykarjola1886]

I don't know why you hate Q so much!

[@permeus2nd]

and then Butterfly (if you know what i mean then you feel my pain and sadness at butterfly)

[@williamozier918]

OK, this episode sucks, let's get that outta the way. I am surprised he missed the connection between this episode and Death Wish. I always thought they were directly thematically linked in a way that feeds back into his analysis that Q didn't want to face the consequence of starting the war. Here's the arc I see: We see that the Continuum is completely stagnant because they're all ominpotent which means any disagreements result in a stalemate. Q inspires Quinn to do something new and different. Quinn commits suicide and Q helps him. This teaches the Q that Q can in fact die. They now have a way to resolve conflicts and they begin killing each other, civil war results. As the war escalates Q and the Q come to realize this will destroy the entire continuum. Why did Q want to have a child? He thought it was the logical balance. Now that the Q can die, he wanted to prove that new Q could also be born and as such the Q would continue on and evolve as a society.

[@NateTmi]

the situation is never dire, because the show is not real & he is Q, he could simply reverse time & try again It never needs to "fit" the eps failing would not impact much, so how is it dire?

[@danielshottopics8187]

Hello Archengeia this episode was ok I thought it was cool although I think the Q continuum could of been better.

[@jaycastiel2509]

This guy is completely unworthy of the very real Qs' attention...Im sooo GLAD the Q turn people like this into non-believing Athiests nothings whom see themselves 'self-center of the galaxy' and ponder on why nothing truly remotely interesting ever happens to them...to HATE is such a strong word...Voyager was brilliantly done...Nuff Said

[@davidkidd4106]

+jay pabon Read what you wrote. Does it make sense to you?

[@jaycastiel2509]

+David Kidd it makes complete sense because the Q are a highly advanced race and what they do on our level is so that we can try and comprehend them...in corporeal form

[@tomgriffiths2622]

Only 3 that is odd like most of the 1st and 2nd season are unwatchable...well most of voyager even the good ones are mmmhhhh even year of HELL

[@thomasn3882]

I hated the open mimicry and mockery of God and Jesus Christ - but then it's Star Trek, so what did I expect? John DeLancey as Q mocked the entire concept of God in the pilot episode of TNG.

[@BiowareKaiserGirl]

Okay I liked this episode, but is was because is was ridiculous and nonsensical it was entertaining.. The idea that Q would even consider having a child with a human is fascinating, you always hear him talk about them like bugs.. but to want to have a child with them? if it was even possible is interesting...The rest is just funny to think about... so yes I agree with all your points but to me it is thought provoking. Although it is the usually wanting to rewite this episode my self.. granted it will be fanfiction lol

[@Lorerunner]

Y'know it JUST occurred to me that I forgot to talk about Anika Hansen. You know, the other 'Q child'. Makes me wonder if that was even considered in this storyline and, if so, what role she'd play.

[@BiowareKaiserGirl]

Archengeia The Q child? I think her name is Amanda Rodgers, from the TNG True Q yes? I wish it was considered it would have tied that ep together as well. I think the death of her parents was referenced in Death Wish? Q saying executions have been done before.. small reference of course.

[@Lorerunner]

KaiserGirl Er right, wrong name haha. Anika is the girl on Voyager... anyways yes I meant Amanda Rodgers. The point I was trying to reach was my regret that her and her resolution (and the execution of her parents) was not brought up in this episode.

[@lexsmith8689]

Lorerunner huh?? Anika is a true name for Seven Of Nine - Anika Hansen. The only girls on Voyager were Mezoti and Naomi Wildmand!! Hun you´d better gather the facts before spouting coments fulla´ mistakes..

[@oddish4352]

Ah, but this was not a mere human, this was Kathryn Janeway, the Chuck Norris of Star Trek.

[@unc0mm0n2]

Voyager is just awful.