Not Everything is For Everyone - PvP vs PvE in Star Citizen!

4.0 is going to live Soon tm and with it we've got some changes to component distributions that has led to a little revival of the great PvP vs PvE debate in SC. In my opinion these changes are a small step towards gating various aspects of the game behind certain gameloops and I actually think it's a good thing!
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[@Noizemaze]

"This isn't for me, and that's okay" is one of those things I think we all need to remind ourselves of on occasion.

[@LoudGuns]

@@Noizemaze 💯 but tbf I think this is one of those things that gets easier and easier the more content is added. When it’s more limited it can feel like you’re missing out on a huge chunk of the content.

[@Doc_Paradox]

Id agree with you if we had 100 systems and a proper karma system in place. But the reality is we waited years for new content only to be told if you can't stand being griefed with zero consequences then "It'S nOt fOr yOu" is a really shallow argument.

[@bengray8686]

It is apparent to me that the "new" content is simply being fodder for murder hobos.. Ya pass..

[@nikoulph]

@@Doc_Paradox 100% agreed and many org's do know that some of they players use extras to impose jurisdiction (gmhx or else). I personally took some interdictors who were literally unbeatable. Org's will be the end of this game I think...

[@Noizemaze]

​@Doc_Paradox absolutely, but I feel like Stanton is also a zone where griefing has no consequences without the other systems in place

[@tbor7710]

I can imagine high tier components being more available in Stanton at market prices, and available in Pyro at "it fell out of the back of a truck" prices. After all you go to Japan and Germany for good auto parts, not Somalia.

[@LoudGuns]

@@tbor7710 the way I look at it from the lore perspective is it’s not available in Stanton because the UEE doesn’t sell their military hardware, so “off the back of the truck” is the only way to acquire it.

[@tbor7710]

@LoudGuns don't you worry about that....I am sure UEE will be just as beholden to Aegis and Amon Reese as current day governments are to their equipment suppliers. Hence why "duel use" equipment and full milspec components are available to the civilian market today if you go through the proper channel$.

[@DemiGod..]

The PVE'ers would cry that they got robbed by Somali pirates having paid no attention to the danger or brought anything to defend themselves or called for help

[@LoudGuns]

@@tbor7710 where does one buy a thermonuclear warhead?…asking for a friend 😂 Will settle for a JDAM

[@tbor7710]

@@LoudGuns ​​a JDAM is just a modularized ordnance with a hardened tip and a GPS enabled nav system, ie fins, and anything you want in the inbetween section. You can make one of those for under $50K. What would be more analogous to our situation here would be the automotive turbine engine for the M1 Abrams tank in time becoming "developed" into a marine turbine engine. This sort of reality will hopefully be better realized in game once crafting comes into play.

[@nathanforrester5140]

This is how I want them to do PvP. Contain it to zones so that the majority of PvPers will be killing each other and not board and killing me in my vulture. I only have a problem with griefers, not PvPers. Let me play smart and avoid most issues. I do not mind getting caught from time to time just do not make it artificially easier to find and kill me because of a forced choke point.

[@LoudGuns]

@@nathanforrester5140 I think this is an element some people miss - people can’t be 2 places at once, so if PvP players have meaningful, fun, rewarding game loops they go do that - the safest time to be a solo mole miner was back when Jumptown was fun 😂 I do think some choke points are fine - super high risk high reward salvage like wake of disaster…but you also have the option to disappear and scrape panels in the halo with an audiobook on if you don’t fancy that.

[@MemeNiceMan]

pyro is for pvpers, you wanna scrape panels safely then stay in stanton, you wanna scrape in pyro? bring a gun

[@LoudGuns]

@@MemeNiceMan I honestly think you mean bring friends. By all means bring a gun too but it’s not going to make a great deal of difference other than as a shame reduction device

[@MemeNiceMan]

@LoudGuns gun as a metaphor, friends would make more sense

[@nathanforrester5140]

@MemeNiceMan pyro is not just for PVPers. If it was then it would be a very empty system. It would be massive fail for CIG if they spent years building a system for 75% to 80% of players to never go there. Pyro should be dangerous but CIG will still needs to deal with griefers. Killing people coming though jump points and at spawn will have to be dealt with or CIG losses money.

[@Ogata123]

The only problem is that they took away something rather important to pve people, stealth components, and locked them behind the purpose the stealth components are desired. To make the choices that allow avoiding combat and survive when forced into it, you have to be good at combat. Sure you can someday try to buy them from someone, maybe. This isnt someday. And you dont want people doing that right now anyways. Unless you want the chat spammed with “wtb nightfall” “wtb jaghte” etc. Another aspect is, it doesnt feel good to have something taken away and locked behind something you dont want to do. They probably should have made new better components, but its understandable why they didnt

[@Ogata123]

All that said. Im loving the contested zones lol. Really looking forward to server stability *someday* where theres a bit less teleporting. I plan on forcing some org peeps to join me on hard grinds of each station because its been some of the best fps gameplay ive had outside org events or the idris boarding event

[@Apis4]

Me and couple of friends, have been looking at this game for almost two years, since we decided to upgrade to new PCs and get off console for minute. This game instantly reminded my mate of Wing Commander 4, which I also loved.... but reminded me of an even older game, called Privateer from back in the day. We are all old school, DAY ZERO, generation one, ground level gamers of over 40+ years, who've been gaming since the dawn of home gaming. This looked so good, we've been coordinating parts pools, to update our PCs even further, whack max all, so we can run max ram, and max GPUs to ensure we can handle everything. Initial purchases have been made, and we are..... close. Except now. Now, we WERE close. Now, this game looks like the most f*cked up POS one could get in to. Long long before PVP was reinvented in the mid 90s, with arena fraggers like Quake.... we already had PVP... in a way. Gen one, day zero, console gaming, was basically majority PVP.... stick figure Vs playing blockfest games meant to be some vague representation of some sport say, like tennis, or soccer. No network, the opponent was on the floor beside you with 'controller two'.... but it was PVP. At the same time as this PVP wave crested, with games like Street Fighter II.... however.... we got something BETTER. We got PVE COOP! Games were you could play TOGETHER. Not AGAINST each other. Compared to the downer of fighting off little blocks fired at your by a smiling bastard who was meant to be your friend, in no bit game, on a console that burned the shadow of your most played cartridge actually ON TO your CRT TV screen.... you could play through the tunnels with Mario and Luigi... or collecting rings with Sonic AND Tails.... TOGETHER. This!! THIS WAS PEAK gaming. This is what anyone who there at the dawn, on ground level, had been missing... well almost... you could occasionally use two blocky pixelated spaceships, to shoot UFOs/Ghosts/Missiles in any take your pick Space Invaders clone... but for the MOST part, it was either SOLO gaming, swapping the controller between you and others, if playing 'together' or povo underdeveloped PVP. Yet, then, suddenly, you COULD actually, for real, TRULY play TOGETHER. Praise be to Jeebus!!!!! MMO's are NOT about PVP, not exclusively or solely anyway. This is idea is retarded. People who make that assumption are weak little b*tches who have to playout their power fantasies in a game, because they got bullied again today, but do not have the balls to stab their bullies. Worse, nonconsensual PVP'ers, are potential sociopaths, who think it is perfectly fine to have fun, and extract joy, at the expense of others, and by ruining THEIR experience. These people are less that scum. Have been for decades. PVE Coop exists in some way or another in almost ALL MMOs out there. Solo players are NOT the only people who play MMOs and avoid PVP. Millions of us, have nothing but disdain for PVP, because we come from a time when it was, as limited and unrefined as it was, all you had for multiplayer gaming. You and another, on two controllers, trying to dominate each other in a game of blocky basketball or some such. As someone who was SOLELY interested in this game for the Coop/PVE Coop play, who has NO interest in PVE.... being FORCED to PVE for the best parts for my ship... and likely best everything really, even when crafting drops, since I am sure these blue prints will be gated too, with the best also PVP gated as well.... it is pretty disgusting to me. Every SC YT'er goes on all the time about the game attracting NEW players, and growing. THIS will COST it players. There are some gamers, who just DO NOT WANT to PVE no matter WHAT, and to make those players, have to depend on others procuring their items? Nope, they will not accept THAT either. If there is no alternative loops or pathways for procuring the best stuff as you get deeper in to the game, then there is little point for many of us to play, or keep playing if we already do. If your game is NOT a dedicated PVP fragorama... if there ARE loops and side content that is wholly suited to Solo, or Co-op PVE play, but you then lock all the best sh*t behind a PVE gate, then it is little better than a paywall, and games that try to force micros on you every second they can. This is no way good for the game, this or ANY game. But I am very thankful I have been tracking all these developments via you, Tomato and one or two others, like Morpholigist et al.... as it made everything clear. We have now made the decision to NOT spend a CENT on a ship pack and this game. Not now at least. We can hold off rushing to upgrade or replace our PCs, as the two other (single player story) games we all wanted, got poorer reviews than expected, leaving SC the last reason we had to go ahead, and funnel money we could spend on sh*t load more PS5 games, in to new gaming rigs. How dumb can developer be? HA! Maybe I will check back on this game in another two or three years, when they fix their BS, and people cannot pirate anyone who does not want to engage with that, and PVP is not the only pathway to success.

[@Chris_Gerbracht]

I'm glad for everyone who's enjoying the new content. As far as the item redistribution goes, I suppose I gotta wait until either crafting is in or they become available through reputation or some such. I just don't have the time or inclination to deal with this.

[@DemiGod..]

How about buying it on the market when it is put up for sale?

[@Billy-bc8pk]

Just grind up in Stanton and buy it off a PvP'er from Pyro?

[@Tbernard-s2n]

The problem was not giving PVP players new content. That most certainly isn't the problem. The problem is taking away things from 85% of the community to give it to the Pvpers and thinking that just fine.

[@vengefuldevil5195]

what did they take away from you? Stanton is still there...

[@SONYUSR]

components honeslty barely matter rn. they dont matter at all for pve, and are marginally better in pvp. either way, its not like duping them is hard

[@Doc_Paradox]

​@@vengefuldevil5195 are you really trying to say "oh that whole new system you've waited for years to play? Yea just keep playing the same one you've been on since 2015." Actual clown 🤡

[@0PsychosisMedia0]

Talk about crying....Are you a man or spaghetti? To get wet over a poorly developed demo that in honestly dosent affect your life is sad.

[@XxTavoRxX]

​@@vengefuldevil5195and if you told you could never go into Stanton you wouldn't complain? Give me a break. Personally I'm not complaining about Pyro, so long as the PvPers stay there, but we know that won't happen, PvP is the only game loop that can be forced on other players, agree or disagree, it's a fact

[@Johny2142-b6s]

PvP groups have really been struggling for content, especially the ones that don't engage in piracy. Pyro is the best thing to happen to these groups in a long time, and I think we could even start seeing the first organic fleet battles occurring in the system. I do feel for the PvE focused players though who worry about rampant murderhoboing, but the high-risk/reward environment of pyro is exactly what makes it exciting to explore and exploit. I think once we get some more iteration/implementation of the reputation system in a way that can punish griefing behaviors such as destroying ships taking off from space stations, Pyro will be a super solid system.

[@LoudGuns]

@@Johny2142-b6s tbf I think there is a flip side to the Murder Hobo aspect even - the MH’s can’t be in Pyro and Stanton 😂

[@stoneguard]

Johnny I think yours is one of the best comments I’ve seen on the topic. I just wish they hadn’t pulled content we already had and made it pyro-attainable only. I think they should have had “equal but different and more tuned to PVP” rewards. Many MMOs have gear sets that tune one way or the other and you get those sets by doing the type of gameplay you enjoy.

[@doubledigital_]

Pyro is the best thing to happen to the game since we had planets!! stanton was Boring as hell.. cant do shit without a trip to prison .. i mean half my time in prison was not even my fault!! lolol.. as a solo player mostly im soooo stoked to go pyro and stay out the way orrr even get ganked who knows .. thats part of the fun LOL :DD its a game!!! the worst thing that can happen is you wait 20mins for a ship :P o7

[@michaelsanders2065]

I have to say that this is one if the most fair and level-headed takes on the debate. You always seem to have a solid, measure approach while not sacrificing any of the enthusiasm. If I played more than I do, I would love to jump in with your group as I know that on of the greatest things about the Star Citizen experience is the group play and the interactions with othe actual players Keeps it up!

[@craygebrown8694]

Love you take on this loud but as far as the components are concerned I dont agree. More than happy for contested zones and for contested zones to have epic pvp gear and components thats all fine. But don't rob the ship components from the current stores not only dose this feel lazy where they needed rewards for the new game loop so they robbed the current in game stores instead of making new pvp focused components. But it also is attacking solo pve players who are already been pushed to join orgs and having their ships nerfed not being able to fly big ships anymore but now this too. If your a solo player who only has a few hours a week to play and just want to enjoy making your own epic goods to sell or mining with your mates to sell to players and have no interest in pvp its just another blow. Why .use we be forced to into a pvp zone where you are going to be grived before during and after the match just to get components we need to play our game loops.

[@siriusscepter]

The problem here is choice, a player should be able to choose, now theres no choice we are now forced to PVP to upgrade our ships. We see how getting ganked for responding to medical beacons worked. Buying from players will be a nightmare too in my opinion. I like to have the choice to either buy in a store or buy from a player and not get killed or ripped off.

[@IllusiveSpartan]

Some one will sell the components, i imagine even a week in to the patch people will be selling upgrades they have either won or stolen. So it will be no diffrent than you grinding for credits and buying it in the store.

[@siriusscepter]

@IllusiveSpartan yeah, ive seen how medical beacons worked out. Got ganked before helping someone. Im sure buying psrts will work out great too

[@FishOnPC]

For now, yes, always, no - just give it time

[@LoudGuns]

@@siriusscepter my recommendation is to find somewhere where trust matters and means more than general chat. In our discord we have run a successful medical response group for more than a year now, any member of our community can request a rescue, members of our org who are into med gameplay can sign up to receive the pings and respond. Zero ganks, zero instances where the rescuer decided to finish the patient off and steal the loot. We’ll probably (once we have our own org sorted) initiate a similar thing with a shop. Prices will unlikely be cheap, but that’s probably the way it’ll be. Also - I would just highlight that you will still have plenty of options and opportunities to upgrade your ship. It’s just that the S tier components won’t be possible to buy in stores. It might be that people just accept the next best option.

[@siriusscepter]

@@LoudGuns thank you, I appreciate that option, However it also makes no since a band of despits in a failing star system would have all the military S tear gear but one of the richest star systems in the UEE doeant sell them in stores. So much for realism and role play lol, Anyway great videos sir thanks for the reaponse!

[@stoneguard]

LG, I love your videos and presentation style typically, so please understand I’m not just raging against the machine here. I think that as someone who is SO social as to both run an Org AND a KZbin channel, I really don’t think you can even comprehend the mindset of a pretty decent pool of players. Just like I can’t comprehend the mindset of someone who finds ganking enjoyable. I would be much more OK with the gating if there were player shop terminals/auction house, OR if you could rep grind with the faction that actually makes the stuff, OR if crafting was in and there were alternative things I could build, but none of that exists yet. Taking away things we’ve had access to and forcing either PVP or reaching out to randos is kinda hell. But that doesn’t mean I should go play solo games either. I enjoy playing with my friends and family, and maybe every once in a while meeting a new person to add to that group. I just think they should wait to gate until the systems are ready to allow alternatives. The whole of pyro is already kind of off the table since it’s already ganksville, and now they’re pulling content away from Stanton. I think people might be over-reacting a bit, but I also think they have good reason to feel marginalized.

[@LoudGuns]

@@stoneguard hey man - no offence taken at all. One thing though - I haven’t always run an org / YT channel, nor have I always been as social as I am now - I kinda grew into it as I got older. So I can relate to folks who don’t want to go making friends with strangers. Ultimately much like those terminals at Tesco (Walmart I assume has them too) player shops will in the future limit the direct interaction you need to have. However, it’s unlikely that everything you could possibly want will be for sale - e.g. if we as an org got some super high tier BP’s for combat ships or weapons, we probably wouldn’t sell our very best since that would be throwing away our competitive advantage. But for the time being I guess I did miss out on an option 4 - “do without”. At the end of the day B tier components aren’t that much worse the A grade, Civilian parts aren’t that much worse than Mil spec - and if you’re primarily into PvE it shouldn’t (in the current build) make much of a difference to what you can and can’t achieve.

[@stoneguard]

@ yeah, that’s the option I’ll take more than likely. I just wish they’d added new gear, maybe more pvp oriented (like glass cannon vs reliability or something) instead of gating gear I’ve already had access to. That would be a very different feeling than yanking something out of our hands to hand to the pvp crowd, ya know?

[@gergenskits3940]

I know a lot of people keep talking about wanting a way to list items for sail. eventually we will get that. it is called the BMM and the Privateer

[@TheOneAndOnlyRavnak]

5:01 - Already put it in the soundboard...

[@kaltenp7870]

you want a PVA game with the possibility of PVP everywhere you have to allow people reasonable access to components to help them do the best they can

[@swedishprepper775]

I guess military grade and stealth components are not for everyone anymore. You better be a good PVP:er or be in a good PVP org to get those after every wipe from now on.

[@doubledigital_]

you wont need them if you dont even pvp anyways.. so wats the point? LOL

[@LoudGuns]

@@swedishprepper775 or make friends / offer a lot of creds to the folks who have an excess of parts.

[@LoudGuns]

@@doubledigital_ you’re 2 for 2 on dumb antagonistic comments buddy. Stop. Please and thank you.

[@drfreeze76]

@@doubledigital_ Because military or stealth components can't be good for PvE at all amiright?

[@IllusiveSpartan]

Youre operating under the assumption thats its the only way youll be able to get them forever.

[@jasonm2477]

The only problem i have with the contested zone loot, is that there is no player market or trading really. I just wish that had come first. but its CIG they always put the shinniest rewards behind the thing they want tested the most, so i suspect that those things will start appearing in other game loops down the line

[@MotherNature26]

CIG actually did something brilliant here for the PVE/solo community here using their systems here. the PVP crowd is going to be attracted to obtaining their equipment from these game loops which give them ever so slight advantages instead of ganking you and your cargo to sell for currency and using that currency to get those best pieces of equipment YOU as a PVE/solo player dont need that equipment, and if you dont have it, you dont get put in the crosshairs nearly as much.

[@XxTavoRxX]

I agree at first, but many PvP players will not like equal fights with other PvP players and will start searching for industrial players to get easy kills and scratch the itch to murder people. With out a solid penalty system it will just be gank sessions all the time

[@Allessir1999]

Your so far off. Yeah there will be a short retrieve while everyone hits pyro. Then what do you think will happen? The pvp'rs will get bored farming each other.. then return to where the pve players are. And return tobganking them. Pvp players dont want a "fair" fight. They just want to kill other players. IE i was just camped in Shubin on daymar. By a lightning and a polaris. With ninetails also roaming outside. Does that sound like fun? Wasnt even fun for them as they couldnt even hurt me. So i trolled them in chat to see how long they would wait.

[@MotherNature26]

@@Allessir1999 Well then, you best be adapting to life in the PU the way you see it. If you are a PVE/solo player maybe its time to learn to socialize. Regardless, CIG needs to test how the community actually plays through this. If you are right, they will adjust it eventually and try some other incentives.

[@Allessir1999]

@MotherNature26 im not worried. I know how to defend myself. Wouldn't be the first time ive killed the guys jumping me. And ive been obliterated a time or 4 too. I dont mind.

[@RichW72]

Well said, good job.

[@jmcorp8021]

the argument of "that part of the game isn't for me" is only valid if you can actually avoid it. there are circumstances where you absolutely cannot avoid PvP. so even though that part of the game isn't for me, there's no way for me to fully avoid having to do that game loop.

[@VaxxedNPC]

If you want a pve slider just go play ED

[@LoudGuns]

@@jmcorp8021 honestly I get you; and I hope that further updates to the law system make it so that as we have lawless areas we also have heavily policed ones (Terra / Castra) so that folks who don’t want PvP at all have the option to fully avoid it. That being said it would also come with the “low reward” associated with “low risk” or the balance would be out of kilter.

[@Doc_Paradox]

​@@VaxxedNPCthis is just an ignorant and pig head headed comment. The Stanton system has com arrays and prison systems to give risk/reward but pyro has nothing in place to prevent griefing

[@BernhardMarchhart]

Yes the contested Zones work but why? Because everyone is on the same gameloop named PVP. The rest of pyro is a shitshow bc its a griefers fest. It is NOT PVP when you shoot a player in a ship that can't fight back and guess what no industrial ship can winn the fight against a medium fighter. Oh then bring friends...... so i have to suffer and paying other people so you could play your gameloop? Find the error! You want PVP look up in Global for other PVPer. Oh than this game isnt for you play something else........ PVE players are the majority so you better learn to stack Boxes, how to scrape a hull and where to sell minables, what thats not your preferred gameloop? Ok then this game isnt for you play somthing else like Rust or Tarkov. We need a PVP button like WoW. Make some PVP zones like Rappel or the Yela asteroids and its done. Dont argue it doesnt work, the biggest MMO in the world do it this way and it works. WoW is older has more players and makes more monney in a Single expansion release day then SC the hole Year...... these guy know exactly what works and what not.

[@0PsychosisMedia0]

"OH the pain, the pain!" -Dr. Smith

[@XxTavoRxX]

Absolutely my point, PvP is the only loop that can be forced on others and eventually if SC doesn't recognize this they will not have the game they say they want, the whole "play the game your way" only applies if you are a PvPer.

[@Cmoth040]

I used to play PvP exclusively in other games. I started in Halo. The original version, where we carried PCs to other peoples houses and set up LANs. I played PvP exclusively in Halo and CoD until after Halo 3 and CoD4. It was a lot of fun and we were absolutely horrible to each other. Most people under 30 wouldn't be able to emotionally handle the things we used to say to one another. Proximity chat was hilarious. However, life happens. My son has disabilities, my wife has a chronic illness. I have a full time career that was dangerous and extremely stressful. I am absolutely capable of violence. I've seen a lot of death, and have CTSD. In short, I've accomplished a lot and have nothing to prove that would lead me to want to continue playing competitively against other people unless I absolutely have to. I no longer have an interest in PvP. I started pledging SC in 2013/14 for the opportunity to do the non-PvP jobs. I have no problem with players that enjoy PvP. I have a problem with PvP players that don't want for PvE players to have the option of using a low percentage PvP server, the PvP slider debate. "Rules for thee but not for me", comes to mind. I don't want PvP to be restricted. I want PvP players to be able to go absolutely crazy and slam that slider to 11. I just want the equal choice of NOT doing it. If you are into PvP competition, you would want others that are capable of fighting on an equal footing. If you just want an easy victim, you aren't a PvP "player", you're just an asshole. If you just get off on harassing other players and ruining the experiences of others, you're probably a coward.

[@zamu77]

I love that they're focused on giving the PvP'ers something to do first, cause we all know what happens when they're bored ...

[@Crivicus]

Yes they grief then they get bored of that and don't come back until there is something new to do... which is probably the real reason PVE players are complaining, they know there will be a lot more on for a while, then it will get really bad again for a while before they leave again and don't contribute to the later gameplay again.

[@ryeaye2278]

i am once again requesting the audio be tunred up

[@garygrieves6752]

I’m all for giving pvp’ers something to do. It stops them from turning to griefing for their thrills (not saying all pvpers are griefiers) but it makes no sense that all the best gear is held in the shittest place. But, as I’m sure most are aware, the pyro we have now is not what it’s going to be when we have more systems. So this isn’t what it’s going to stay like.

[@snorkelfaceo_oj]

"lightweight babyyyy"

[@RicoZaid_]

3:44 that dopamine Rush is expensive though, so you can't use that analysis.

[@LoudGuns]

@@RicoZaid_ I mean…is it though?

[@JL-rj9fl]

💯, I think this is a great take! I don't mind gear that is gated behind certain activities, especially where this gear is more aimed at pvp players anyway (it seems). I'll be hunting for components that are efficient and durable, and military gear isnt typically efficient in the power/efficiency/durability triangle. I don't think industrial players will be impacted much by this change. If there's something I need, I'll strike a deal with your org mates or another friendly org/friends to get what I need. 🙂

[@jimrussell4062]

Makes sense the PvP zones would have PvP gear like armor and guns, not ship components.

[@kilozulu2413]

If I understood your premise, it seems focused on a belief that players don't like PVP because they're not good at it, but with practice and strategy, they will discover the joy. If all else fails, just get some friends to save your sorry ass. Here are some relevant factors that seem overlooked in your video. Put simply, Star Citizen invites PVE play. Start with the single player game, then come back for the online adventure. From locations to ship design, and the game's design in general, it's all focused on providing PVE engagement. As an example of locations, armistice zones were added by CIG specifically to block PVP. Ship design is almost entirely based around "rule of cool"; with poor turret placement and lots of needless destructible bits. At every turn, CIG has sought to curb the availability of PVP and force it into a limited context: armistice zones, crime stat, and death of a spaceman, as examples. All along, however, they've worked to add and expand story and quests for PVE. This is CIG, however, and they can't bring themselves to tell a potential revenue stream flat out, "no." So, they keep offering the idea of PVP potential to the community. So, here we are, fourteen years in. CIG is endlessly trying to find a compromise in flight and combat performance that is suitable for PVP balance within a game wired for PVE. SaltEMike recently pointed out that CIG has added one thing, just one thing, for PVP (and PVE players should just let them have that.) One thing...sounds like a hint? Here's another angle: any player that was invited into the game on the premise of extensive PVE, has no interest in PVP. Forcing them to ignore all the PVE content because an individual insists on engaging them in PVP, uninvited, is never going to be fun for them. Insisting that they round up a bunch of friends and hold their breath for the day that a PVP player shows up is not a reasonable expectation, either. PVP simply requires that both players be willing participants in the activity. If a PVP player attacks a player who is only present for PVE, then that PVP player is engaging in PVE themselves. They're just ruining someone else's fun while doing it. The reality is that this isn't an argument between PVP and PVE players. Star Citizen was concepted as a PVE game, regardless of what they will say officially. The very premise of making it as realistic as possible and then dialing it back for fun excludes PVP. Why? PVP requires a balanced playing field where everyone has an opportunity to compete and achieve a fair outcome. There's nothing "realistic" about that, and it's impossible to achieve in the open world sandbox game that Star Citizen is. I enjoy PVP games, with WarThunder being my go-to game (not even close, Star Citizen.) That game is great because it's built for PVP by using closed environments that are designed ("supposedly," I hear you say) with fairness in mind and tools to ensure balanced and fair competition. EVE Online is solely a PVP game, even though it offers a modicum of PVE to get you started. Pointing to its long life does not make it a good example. It is a game that has always survived on a player base that is much smaller than anything CIG desires for their game. Is it a hardcore survival sim like ZDay? We all know that CIG has never expressed any interest in such a play style. Arena Commander, Space Marine, and "Theaters of War" share one thing in common: they exist to pull PVP players into a PVP arena and out of the PU. One invites PVP, the other does not. The simple truth is this: PVP players will never achieve a fun PVP experience within the Star Citizen PU. The game was designed with a PVE mindset, from start to finish, and any PVP qualities are bolted on as an afterthought. It's a tune as old as MMORPG's - they try to appease PVP players who demand the format in a game for which it was never intended, and everyone ends up suffering for it. Everyone. I don't bemoan players wanting PVP, but Star Citizen is not going to give them a good experience, and nothing said on Spectrum or elsewhere is going to change that. If someone is playing Solitaire, you can demand they play it with you, you can dash their cards off the table, rant and rave all you like, but the game is called "Solitaire" for a reason. Go find a good poker game somewhere else.

[@LoudGuns]

@@kilozulu2413 i disagree- the third argument I made was to find someone who loves the jobs you hate, and buy the stuff that they can get through their preferred game loop which you don’t want to do. (The other one that I didn’t include is suck it up and accept second tier components). I think an element of game design here is laid down to entice PvP players away from comparatively safe areas (Stanton) and encourage them to head over to Pyro. But you can’t just create a bonfire and say - go there, you like killing stuff, there’s no rules go nuts! You have to also incentivise them with something better / more valuable - and that’s what’s happening. The issue is some people want their cake and to eat it too - “PvP’ers please go away and leave me alone, but also you can’t have anything nicer than what I have here, and I should be able to come over to your area and enforce my gameplay on you.” To borrow your analogy- it’s like someone going to the Pamplona Bull Run, walking onto the Main Street, and setting out a solitaire table then telling people off for knocking it over 😂

[@kilozulu2413]

@@LoudGuns I'm sensing a bit of a double standard, though, not by you, but CIG's further attempt at incorporating PVP. How are the PVP'ers getting the best gear? PVE or PVP?

Well, if you like PvP, everything is for you. That can't be said for PvE players.

[@LoudGuns]

Siege of Orison Xenothreat Overdrive Initiative Nine tails lockdown Save Stanton Cargo Hauling Box delivery missions 98% of Bounty Hunting Mining Salvage

[@callsigngrimdoll]

I'm gonna make friends with PVP nuts and pay them to carry me to places I want to go and help me get things I want to get. Long term of course after everyone has all the goodies first. I'm not a gamer though, more an RP or explorer.

[@gregderm]

Why don't they make mission quests for solo players like say you find a string of clues to someones hiden bunker with top grade components stashed away or do a string of hard missions from a mission giver like Vaughn. Plus I don't mean make these missions server side events like Xenothreat or saving stanton, just nice little quests that would take about an hour.

[@CyberneticArgumentCreator]

Here's my analogy. Imagine your favorite shooter: Fortnite, Overwatch, Warzone, Marvel Rivals, whatever. Now imagine they let the players sneak preview a new map by letting them run around it in a special FFA deathmatch mode. You load into the map and everyone can kill everyone while you run around and see it for yourself. No one would complain that "this map sucks, everyone just kills you while you're trying to sightsee" because it isn't how the map is going to be experienced in the game when it launches. When it launches, it will have rules and teams and a purpose and structure. No one is going "this map sucks because it's FFA", they're going "I can't wait to play on this map when it goes into the real game". In Star Citizen, we have a map preview of Pyro, currently. Pyro right now and at 4.0 launch has no enforcement or karma or game loops (only rudimentary placeholder tier 0 proof of concept stuff, like in Stanton) and is essentially a FFA sandbox map preview. It has literally NO BREAING on how Pyro will be at launch other than the locations and vibe. Yet Star Citizen players, for some reason, are incapable of accepting that the thing they play isn't a game. We are playing a sneak preview tech demo sandbox of EVERYTHING SO FAR. That's the PU. It's a preview of locations and ship models, NOT a preview of the game or how it is going to work in the future. I cringe every time these people who want the tech demo to be a game SO BADLY lose their way and think it IS a game just because they want it to be and because it's been a long time. They declare that it needs XYZ fixed for their gameplay RIGHT NOW. I'm so sorry bobs, it's not a game. Enjoy the sneek peak or just don't play it, but don't try to whine it into a live service launched game. It's not yet and won't be for years. The upside to this is that you literally DO NOT KNOW if Pyro is "for you". You can't. It doesn't exist other than an empty shell of pretty sights. You might love how it plays out in 1.0 and really enjoy building a base with your friends, defending it, and doing lucrative activities with a tiny bit of danger thrill.

[@LoudGuns]

@@CyberneticArgumentCreator I reckon it’s pretty obvious why this is the case. 1. SC is marketed as a game right now. When people are literally sold “this is playable now” you can’t really blame them for thinking about it that way. 2. The game won’t have a finger snap moment and become 1.0 from 4.0 (or 5.0 or 6.0). It’ll slowly be iterated on. People are right to voice their opinions at this stage because it can and will influence how the project evolves and the game we ultimately end up with. I do agree that people need to step back and accept that whatever we get now isn’t a finished product.

[@Billy-bc8pk]

@@LoudGuns You're right it is marked as "playable now" with a big 'ole "alpha [insert version here]" which is no different than any other Steam Early Access trailer that also advertises itself as "Playable now" like Palworld. For some reason, people can accept that Palworld being in Early Access and "playable now" is in alpha and still in development, but for some reason cannot accept that for Star Citizen.

[@LoudGuns]

@@Billy-bc8pk you know I’m no SC doomsayer, but I’m also not going to white knight. The reason might be something to do with the 14 years of open development 😆

[@Billy-bc8pk]

@@LoudGuns Fair enough and I understand. I guess following games like BeamNG Drive, Examina, Project Zomboid and Tarkov, all of which have been in development for as long as Star Citizen, I'm fine with the lengthy times so long as the games show progress and push the boundaries foward. I have a lot more tolerance/patience for those projects than games that are recyling the exact same concepts/designs for the nth time for the last 15 years, ya know?

[@TheStumafoo]

Wait, why not implement a full bounty system before the gameplay so we can hunt down offenders!!?.. cause cig shovels shit against the wall to see what sticks

[@ShaoruneXYZ]

yesterday. I just said in global chat "Chill guys. this is just a game" the entrire chat put bounty on me. people are crazy. even some them DM on spektrum to KYS. GODD DYAYUIUMM

[@AtlasRandGaming]

People on both sides of this debate are talking past each other because the DEFINITIONS of many elements are different for the two groups. Here is my $.02 on the topic as someone who played Eve for 7 years, SC for 4 and Elite for 7. Most PvE players have no problem watching 2 other players who want to shoot at each other go at it. Consensual PvP is fine according to everyone including PvE players. However the problem is that for the PvP players, PvP literally means "I can shoot anyone" (and any one can shoot at me) while for PvE players PvP is mostly seen as "Armed to the teeth players only targeting people who do very little combat and are in ships that have very little defense and no offensive capabilities." Do you see the problem that arises from these viewpoints? This is why more than half of the "PvP" in Star Citizen is actually called griefing by PvE players. Any why they are fed up with CIG promoting "This game has piracy and PvP" which literally relies on there being herds of PvE players in defenceless ships as opportune targets for PvP who ignore NPC targets. Salty Mike argued that PvE players are just carebares and "have never played and MMO like this one" - which is funny as many of us have been playing MMO games longer than he has been out of diapers. But I digress. The point is there is no balance in SC for consequences to nonconsensual PvP the way there is in other games. In SC you get a crime stat for killing a defenseless Mole, you run and hack your crime stat with only NPCs for opposition and you're good to go with no criminal record in 15 minutes. The PvE player with the mole lost hours of work, not to mention his ship. There is an imbalance here. In other games like EvE an attack on a random person may result not only in KILL RIGHTS for a month - where you can kill the other person without police getting on their side because revenge is the law - and even consequences like week or month long WAR Declarations which means that any time anywhere anyone from the clan of the person killed can go after ANYONE in the other clan without police intervention. SC has none of that. It has a system that slaps criminal behavior with at most a 15 minute EXTRA gameplay loop for non-consentual PvP. Where the other party is just screwed with no compensation. I bet most people who want PvE Only Server would be much more happy on PvP servers if the gankers would OWE them the amount stolen or how about the gankers get a bounty equal to the damage done and that bounty CAN'T be cleared for a week. Anyone who kills them gets the bounty. I would argue that would PROMOTE PvP play, but watch all the PvP players who claim to want more PvP completely argue against having non-removable bounties - because for most PvP players it's NOT actually about shooting at otyher PvP players... it's about shooting at unarmed players over and over and over. Sure there are groups like Avenger 1 who love to fight other PvP players to get better, but that is a small minority of the "pro-PvP players in SC" the majority are quite accurately described as "griefers" and if CIG doesn't fix this soon, more people - regardless of the thousands they spent on this game - will just never log in and never spend another dime.

[@andrewfanner2245]

Excellent perspective Loud, put me down as owing you a beer, Both sides seem to have developed entrenched positions, you've spelled out a good version of working together.

[@LoudGuns]

@@andrewfanner2245 tbh - as ever with these things - I think there’s minorities on both sides who shout the loudest (mostly at one another). I think the middle ground is where most people who spend more time in game than on spectrum sit. 👍

[@Doc_Paradox]

I like that top components are locked behind high risk high reward content but my issue is I cant even leave the hanger or land at an outpost without getting my ship blown up for daring to leave it for a mere second. To be honest the "not for everyone" argument really falls apart when an ENTIRE system that has been waited on for years now is off limits to you because you simply don't want to be griefed. I don't mind PVP but griefing is not pvp we at least need a system in to help prevent outright griefing.

[@Furstaide]

In the test servers people will kill anything that moves, however it’s been said so many times take a party to go these places or risk!

[@matthewbrady5274]

I've never been griefed once in over a thousand hours of play, only pirated like two maybe three times? I've never been rammed a single time because I set my route ahead of time and don't waste time with hanger doors open. How often are you getting "griefed"?

[@Doc_Paradox]

​@@FurstaideI can understand that for the contested zones and what not absolutely but im just trying to leave the space station mannn or drop off a box at an outpost and some mouth breather is just blowing up everyone's ship that lands. Im all for pvp but these guys are just being toxic bullies

[@Doc_Paradox]

​@@matthewbrady5274 ive been playing since 2016 chief ive been griefed plenty of times but not in the last 2 years of normal play BECAUSE of the prison system. Its not perfect, but it does help greatly mitigate griefing as trying to get back takes so much effort most just log off and let the timer bleed. (Im excluding free fly events as a ton of bad actors always hop on) But with the current eptu for pyro ive been constantly griefed every session. Most are simply trying to leave the hanger only to have a brainlet hovering outside the door immediately blasting me before the doors are even open fully. Other times ill be at an outpost and someone will literally fly over, blow up any ships on the ground, then fly away. Thats not pvp there was no combat just straight up griefing and running away. There are no consequences for griefers and so the situation is horribly lopsided. They have nothing to lose and everything to gain while you have EVERYTHING to lose. Hell there were even whole groups camping the wormhole exit jamming everyone who came through and swatting them instantly.

[@Crivicus]

There is a reason most MMOs have separate PVP and PVE servers and that is because players that are just into PVP don't contribute after they get bored and have moved on. I am not talking multi role or dedicated players but the PVP player that gets on for the hype, does all the new PVP content then gets bored and starts making their own PVP content (including griefing) before they then get bored of that and leave again. Combine that with the fact that many backers may well have backed the game because they thought it would be more like a traditional space game and now they are seeing their money investment "wasted" on content that they are not interested and have never been interested in, especially when there are plenty of extraction shooters out there already, then I can see the point of view they may have. Personally as I invested because I wanted a Freelancer 2 game I know I am waiting for Squadron 42 anyway. In the mean time I am a multi role player and the thing I don't like so much is the massive push to force orgs without the tools for it in the game. In WoW I was a mercenary and joined some of the biggest guilds completing all of the end game content without being in the guild (I had my own that just contained all my alt characters) because people knew they could rely on me and call me in if needed. I look forward to doing that in SC one day, as long as they don't make it too mandatory to be in an org.

[@danieldorn6516]

CIG needs to find an alternative way for people to get the good gear. Its quite short sighted to only award PVPers. If they really try to force players into that one particular game style, SC will fail as all other MMOs have done in the past. Or it will remain a niche game, like EVE. What makes me sad is the fact, that we already have succesful role models for MMOs combining PvE and PvP and CIG thinks they know better... they will adopt and change this or fail. As simple as that.

[@anothergoogleuser]

Thank you for your opinion and your perspective. I have zero interest in the PVP Star Marine contested zones gameplay; however, I am glad that it works for you.

[@aso6437]

I have been play Dayz for 6000 plud hours and I am not even a heavy PVP guy as I have gotten old, And I have always been a solo for a long time. When I can play and when others play is an issue different time zones has always been my issues. But I am some place in the middle I am looter.

[@doubledigital_]

there is plenty of missions in stanton to get loot .. and when crafting comes in next year we will get the blue prints that are giving the rewards ( loot ) in pyro.. trust me on that. For now tho just grab a gun and have some fun! :D o7

[@LoudGuns]

@@aso6437 I played Last Oasis solo for a good while before joining a PvP guild and I loved being a sneaky little rat looter - particularly when other guilds were having big old battles and I was running in to steal their gear while they tried to siege. Happy days 😂

[@Doc_Paradox]

​​@@doubledigital_ Yes, but this is an ignorant comment because you're telling people that have waited years for pyro. An entire new system that we've never had before with tons of content and areas to explore that we should just stick to Stanton? It's not only ignorant. It's very gatekeeping in nature.

[@LoudGuns]

@@Doc_Paradox Honestly (and without malice) I feel the reality is that people have been waiting years for "a new system" - if you had the choice of Terra, Nyx, Castra and Pyro launching tomorrow which would you visit first?

[@jimrussell4062]

@@LoudGuns Terra

[@streife8539]

ty

[@shield-sc]

Co habitation of PVE and PVP in an open mmo e environment has NEVER WORKED. And any attempt to do so has made the majority of players to leave the game. Its never ever ever worked. And it won't here. They have to implement some sort of flag system. Give players choice. Don't force people into playing a certain way. I come at this as a developer working on numerous mmos with millions of players. Contested zones are a flag system so it's already in game. No loss of immersion. The only reasons people don't want this is because they want an unfair advantage. No one has issues with Contested zones. You failed to understand the problem LoudGuns. The issue is a innocent player mining in a prospector that gets killed out of the blue from a lightning. This is a terrible video that fails to understand the problem. Or the 10000s of issues like this that players are having every time they login. This happens, they log out and new gone forever. Then players dwindle and the begins to die. Its happened in every mmo that's tried it Making a video where you comment on something you yourself say I havet played 4.0 is irresponsible. Pyro is a gank fest. Play it. Find our for yourself

[@LoudGuns]

Eve Online.

[@shield-sc]

@LoudGuns eve online is not considered a commercial success. At its peak it had 300k players. And i. That game which i have spent 1000 hours, high sec the most dangerous area and the game is caustic and controlled by 5 major corporations. That is a terrible example to use and only further enhances my argument

[@LordKemmotar]

I understand that you want to reward in some way people who want to enjoy the contested zones, both for personal use and for trading. But that is already one of the problems, there is no way to trade in SC at the moment as it is understood in any other MMO. Furthermore, making those components the "best" is a mistake as it prevents them from being obtained in other ways. Following the lore, and just as you say that military components should not be available to anyone, in the lore they had also commented many times that it would be through reputation that they could be obtained. And that has been the mistake, not giving that option to the rest of the players. Whoever wants to get them for free by participating in the contested zones, good for them. But others can do missions, collect money, and then, if they have enough reputation with the UEE, Advocacy, or Bountyhunters, they can acquire those components from their merchants. Most MMOs in which both PVE and PVP are present have similar equipment that is obtained in various ways. Another example. Elite Dangerous has just finished its story of the 2nd Thargoid War. Everyone who participated in the fight with the last Titan has received cosmetics as well as the best drives currently available. The cosmetics are exclusive. But the engines can be acquired, for a high cost in materials, by all other players, current and future. They are not locked into a single game mode.

[@LoudGuns]

@@LordKemmotar I would highlight that it’s 4.0 not 1.0 - to my mind the premise of walled components is not an issue and is in fact a good thing. I would however like to see (as said in the vid) better trade systems, and more variety but that’ll just come in time. If the first locking has been behind a PvE mechanic (let’s say mining) and it gave you a shield that was meta for PvP then a lot of PvP hardcore players would be whining and the PvE hardcore would be telling them it was fine.

[@LordKemmotar]

@@LoudGuns I don't believe that walled components is a good thing when they are limited to only one mode. And the other example that you say is the same problem. If you put a op item that can be used in all modes limited to a single mode, what you are doing is alienating half of your target audience. It's an error, a bad desing. As always, "it's an alpha, not the final version", but knowing CIG after all these years, if no one protests, in the end the alpha and the final version will be the same.

[@maxjergens]

My only problem with PKers is that they are the guys that will cheat with wall hacks and aim-bots.

[@bkmelseth]

Missing the entire issue, well done

[@LoudGuns]

@@bkmelseth elaborate

[@Furstaide]

After playing so long and to now have military geared gated behind pvp seems harsh but it’s all in alignment with the CIG process of slowing the mmo gains. It shouldn’t be easy and the massive fleets bight by many shouldn’t get top gear with ease either. It’s all good🎉

[@LoudGuns]

@@Furstaide a very good point that I didn’t touch on mate - this is a perfect way to speed bump people with a lot of cash bought ships vs those with relatively few.

[@jimrussell4062]

Military gear should be behind the "military" reputation wall. The OPPOSITE of the crime track. So there's a reason to do missions and do PvE to gain credit with UEE/militias/security groups. Why would doing stuff with criminals give you access to high tech military gear that criminals don't have access to? That's illogical.

[@XxTavoRxX]

I figure a fair amount of people will be like me and just not bother with Pyro at all. Then the pvpers will get bored of no easy kills and/or tired of fair fights in a CZ and end up in Stanton again looking for easy industrial kills. because lets face it, if they really wanted real pvp they would be in AC not the pu.

[@madhax47]

Pvp in open world mmo does not work. It will always become a murder hobo fest. Otherwise the price for pvp would need to be so high no one wants to pvp, so there's only pve. That's why all mmos put pvp in extra zones. Of course it's also not ok to lock progression behinde pvp only.

[@DemiGod..]

One criticism I have seen is you try to deliver cargo and you get blown up and nothing you can do. I assume they never considered getting an escort or somebody to man their guns. PVE players dont want to put in nay effort, just make tons of money

[@jimrussell4062]

Why is the PvE player the one required to do much more work to avoid the PvP player? Seems like the selfish one there is the PvPer.... who exists only to grief the PvE gamer. Now if the PvP were only fighting PvP...then both are getting to have fun with each other while the PvE has fun without them. How about the other half of your argument? Make it so hard to PvP that the PvP has to have a full crew to endanger a PvE player? Then when they don't like it say "Well all you gotta do is find a crew to help you if you want to PvP?" Does that sound fun and simple to you? You have to understand the point of view of others in an MMO.

[@ericsortzi5669]

I can appreciate the level-headedness of the video, but it ignores the most fundamental problem with locking the most desired components behind a goofy wannabe extraction shooter mode that most SZC players will not want to bother with. And that problem of course is that CIG has said several times now that other than salvaging military/stealth components off of dead ships or getting them rarely on a black market, the primary means of obtaining them legally is supposed to be through the reputation system. The idea is you can't get access to purchase mil spec components unless your rep with a military affiliated faction is high enough. Otherwise yeah, you gotta scrounge for them. And rep is supposed to fundamentally change how PvP works in SC overall anyway. With that and the law and order system CIG outlined, a lot of the bad behavior we see in Pyro right now wouldn't be possible without major consequences. But guess what? The rep system isn't available in 4.0. And so yeah, people are rightfully angry about the idea that CIG is making the only way to obtain some items (which are supposed to be available to obtain primarily in completely different ways) being shuttled off into an unappealing game mode locked inside an environment most players simply don't want to be bothered with.

[@okharleys]

acquiring components 'via Trade'? what trade? this just more food for the grey market.

[@LoudGuns]

The type that occurs in SC focussed discords.

[@Rock-em-up]

Its good of you to talk about it. Imo its a good way to increase player interaction, bartering, increasing the things to do and creating memorable moments.

[@LoudGuns]

@@Rock-em-up to be fair that’s what I’m after from an MMO. Before we had the convenience of hangar storage I did some arms deals for rail guns / grenade launchers - and while sketchy they were great fun and really memorable!

[@closedchill5243]

Star Citizen has many types of gameplay. the problem is depth and richness. Anything involving flying a ship and living in a ship is the heavy focus and is core to the game. This includes combat. Second most developed gameplay is FPS combat. Yes there is mining, salvage, trading, and many other professions. The problem is these all are really shallow and low on fun. They are mini games, not core gameplay, not leveraging SC unique advantages. So when people see yet another combat focused feature, dismissing criticism as 'not everything is for you' is as condescending as it is shallow. You're saying 'oh you don't like combat? Thats OK you can scrape some hulls.' Powerwash simulator is not my idea of fun. Great salvage gameplay can be done. See Hardspace Shipbreaker. Good mining gameplay can be done. See Deep Rock Galactic, Minecraft, and many others. Good base building can be done. See Satisfactory, Space Engineers, No Mans Sky, and many others. Good fauna hunting can be done. See The Hunter or one of the many hunting sims. S42 is the purely combat focused game. If you love combat, theres your game. SC is supposed to be everything else. They're just doing a really poor job making anything besides ship combat. With the time and budget they have, people expect more.

[@BerraLJ]

I am a goon in EVE i get enough pvp there :)

[@doubledigital_]

you wish son xD i bet you go mining in 1.0 xD

[@LoudGuns]

@@BerraLJ 😂

[@LoudGuns]

@@doubledigital_ oof Eve PvP has reached my comments section

[@fishheadbreakroom]

tomorrow

[@doubledigital_]

last day in the office is monday!

[@danielfeuling4162]

It's a really solid take. I think something to keep in mind is that if Terra was the first "new" system out, PvP players would probably be feeling frustrated too -- but it wouldn't be fair for them to doom about how the game needs to change to fit them, and how it's "unfair that they can't play their game loop in the new system." Whining on Reddit daily about how their content is being denied to them -- sound familiar? Ultimately, systems like Terra will be the counter balance. As a PvP player, I wouldn't have the right to go to Terra and demand CIG change their game's design to give me my preferred playstyle at every turn, because that isn't fair to other people who like different things. I'm really struggling to stay calm and not get into debates with people who aren't reciprocating that same energy. What also is frustrating is the divide between "PvE players" and "PvE players", when in reality, we're all just players in the same universe. Functionally, whether you get killed by an extremely capable AI or a player, it doesn't change the fact that you were killed. Pyro is supposed to be very challenging and very rewarding, so why are we upset that valuable things are being placed there? I feel like it's logically inconsistent and arguing in bad faith when people complain that components are "gated by PvP" when the reality is, high rewards are being gated by high difficulty. Does it matter to you if the entity that kills you is an NPC or a player? Anyone who answers "yes" to that question is not really being honest with themselves, or they are concerned about things outside of game design. Pyro is hard, therefore risky, therefore rewards are higher. That's not gatekeeping or favoring "PvP players", it's just risk vs reward. At the end of the day, when we *choose* to go to Pyro, or the contested zones, we are signing up for a high level of difficulty. People make that *choice* and they need to be accountable to themselves for that choice. Anything outside of pad ramming or things explicitly forbidden by TOS is fair game. It's incredibly frustrating hearing all the feedback from people that are trying to gatekeep and control other people's behavior when that behavior is absolutely within the allowable realm. If I want to kill everyone I see in Pyro, that's fine -- as long as I'm willing to face the consequences, which is a choice *I* have to make an be accountable to. There is a level of entitlement in this community, unfortunately, that stems from the long development cycle and the high amount of money people have paid in. It is tiring to see when any new ship, system, or design idea is released to the public, that everyone tries to change it to make sure it fits what *they* want, with zero thought for anything else. I know "PvE players" are essential to the game, which is why I begrudgingly accept things like instanced raids, even if I personally hate the idea. It's why I won't complain for a second about not being able to kill people in Terra. I want other people who live in this house with me, that like different things, to get to have their toys, too. But that also means that I get to have mine, and it is frustrating when it feels like there is a militant minority that screams about the idea that I get to. As someone who enjoys PvP, I shouldn't need to justify my existence or actions when both things are justified within game rules *as well as* the expectations set out for years about the dangers that exist -- especially in Pyro. Lastly, your intro always slaps, and I appreciate your neutral and reasonable stance here. Wish the community would take a few notes.

[@jimrussell4062]

PvPers have already said that "all systems will be fully PvP" including Terra, so they already ARE making that claim....

[@danielfeuling4162]

@@jimrussell4062 PvP thresholds and in-game mechanisms around PvP are different in different systems. Pyro's mechanisms are lax, Stanton's are medium, Terra's are strict and ever-present. CAN someone attack you in Hi-Sec in Eve? Sure. Is it unlikely? Also yes. So I think you're intentionally missing the point here and not really engaging in good faith, as is common, unfortunately.

[@indivestor]

changes to component distributions - this is a great thing! And the high level parts will probably be available in the other new systems if high enough rank in the military fro example

[@SledTillDead]

I would have been fine with Pyro being only for PvPers had CIG not told us we're only getting 5 systems. That's more than 20% of the game's content. Yeah no thanks. Total shit

[@criticalthinkingtryit]

KOOL-CULT = SC PLAYER BASE at this point

[@ParaquatSC]

read your own name out loud please

[@eyekhan6099]

I'm not a PVPer but appreciate that PVP is available for those that want it. Getting ganked has been some of the most exciting game play though there are times I enjoy a quiet experience in the verse without much risk like watching a storm out the back of my Black or listening to music while scraping some hulls. I'm glad there is a variety of game play loops for us all.

[@doubledigital_]

exactly and .. its a huge system as well, we have 2 of them now.. so its not like its over populated lol :D

[@jimrussell4062]

There's already NPC criminals too remember. I have ran into increasing numbers lately. Not sure if it's just bad luck or an increase in the game, but it's happened quite frequently even in relatively uninhabited areas like the empty moons, not near any stations. So there is STILL risk there. Just not "griefers" since the AI are following the rules they are given not for "giggles" or to post on KZbin how they shot an unarmed ship up.

[@infect3d82]

Pyro looks like to be a big adventure for all of us no matter which path of activities someone would choose , PVE or PVP. I just am looking forward to have fun on the new patch.

[@doubledigital_]

I have been afew times now.. its a huge system compared to stanton!.. the only time I have seen people was at the station lol!! it is great tho and the patch seems pretty ok so far ( tested it about 1 hour ago ) .. new build from last night , im guessing this thing will go live friday or monday..

[@Volf1916]

Completely locking top tier components out of the manufacturing system and placing them exclusively behind PVP required content in a full PVP no consequence lawless system is a failure. No matter how you try to slice it, its a wrong move. Restrict the components behind top tier faction rep and limit quantity to a player, ok. What CIG is doing is the equivalent of telling everyone that if they want to fly a F-22, they have to go fight in a warehouse in Haiti to get the parts. I have no issue with there being access to top tier reward for PVP content in Pyro, good I say go for it, make it a viable game loop in the PVP system for the community component that has been waiting for years to get some real PVP focused content into the game, we still don't have the Bounty Hunting 2.0 of course but ok, next best thing. But completely stripping away top tier components from PVE players, that a big and direct middle finger to a major portion of the community. Bad idea.

[@Brakerofwind]

The real problem is Star Citizen is a buggy mess and not pvp. Remove the ability to claim your ship with missiles is fine until you lose your ship randomly during qt. Removing teir 1 grade a components and lock them behind an event is fine until you get to the end and you 30k. They need to fix the game first is my biggest issue.

[@CruentusV]

you make it sound as if the complaints are from a small percentage of players and unimportant. sorry, your opinion borders on CIG shilling in the way it tah tahs the concerns of a vast majority of players. when a majority of game dev resources is used to create content for a small percentage of players, this endangers the game in general. when your attitude is "if this is not your cup of tea, don't play the content", it typifies an attitude of a small, toxic group uninterested in the game's success. were CIG to have set aside a percentage of resources comparable to the percentage of players interested in unfettered PvP in Pyro (or even in general), Pyro would have been in development for another year or two. your attitude represents less than 25% of players. accept that you represent a very small percentage of players and give such demeaning opinions accordingly...

[@koruzarius8071]

I'm a PvE player through and through, and I disagree with you. Our time will come, this is just one bit of content, there's lots on the way.

[@CruentusV]

@@koruzarius8071 i envy the retention of your deep belief and patience, but i have watched for more than a decade while too many resources get spent on unimportant items to serve a small contingent of players when too much of existing play content goes wanting. this is only the latest example...

[@koruzarius8071]

@CruentusV Fair enough! Their priorities don't always make sense to me, I'd really like the crafting systems to get into place so that there are other means of getting the good gear, but that's a separate problem from PvP vs PvE in general.

[@CruentusV]

@@koruzarius8071 maybe not so different. CIG's intent to create an economy pulls all aspects of the game together. at some point since the intent seems to be to copy EVE Online, PvP will become an important tool of industrialists and marketeers...

[@ParanoidCarrot]

facts are more you can keep and grow your player base more people end up doing pvp as well. not everybody but always people end up there. issue is that CIG is trying to push group play to everything, and removing choice of grouping to MUST group up. this is a bad thing, a game will get new players hooked if you can play it solo or with friend or two. with very little effort, and have way to progress, and naturally people group up and clan up as a result of this. how ever if you force group play and actual progression is dependant on you getting in a group from day one, you will keep maybe 10% of new players and thats optimistic view. and thous 10% will still be subjected to life and othergames or bad experiences, so not many of them progress to pvp unless they where looking for it streight away.

[@LoudGuns]

@@ParanoidCarrot tbf I think there are a lot of loops in the game that are perfectly soloable / small group friendly - if anything the stuff you have to group for is rarer. However - I can see that it is “cooler”. E.g. the Polaris / big events like Save Stanton (although that and other dynamic events are still soloable - it’s just smoother and more fun in a group), and now probably top tier components. But none of these things are essential to experience 90% of the game that’s there.

[@SONYUSR]

being a hardcore pvp player in this game, has sucked since MM. Its nice there is finally some natural content again. CIG ended combined arms when they ruined the ballista back in 3.18, they ruined sniping around JT with sniper glints, they made the FM significantly less fun with MM. Pyro has been a long-awaited step towards giving pvp something, outside of community-run events. hopefully with 4.2 better we get a better FM, and some day we see actually decent AA in game. (also that sniper glint is so so stupid... so hope they undo that)

[@jimrussell4062]

You mean besides most of the game content up to this point? including all the events? Sorry you can't claim to be the victim. =-)

[@damaddmann]

This game community has the softest weakest minded people. I love the PVP aspect of the game and I wish CIG will stop catering to these crybabies.

[@jimrussell4062]

The PVPers are the crybabies though.... they can't accept that some people don't want to play exactly like them so they whine. PvE crowd has never tried to make the whole game PvE, unlike PvP crowd. It's really only aggression going one way and has been for years. The small minority demanding the majority follow their way "or else." The PvE groups when they aren't happy with the state of the game just log off and do something else until the griefing and such dies down. They don't really engage. Different styles.

[@damaddmann]

@ So we’re the ones that’s on all the forms complaining about people not wanting to fight you sound like a typical PVe er what’s your in game name? I’m gonna look for you. 😛

[@dex6147]

I assume all the anti social space trucker types that are crying in Spectrum now, are the same morons that defended MM because it was going to stop the evil "light fighter meta." I haven't played much this year because CIGs updates are all downgrades but I think I'll hop in 4.0 just to give losers more to cry about.

[@LoudGuns]

@@dex6147 healthy 👍

[@doubledigital_]

its mad to think we have a good system for everyone ( its huge ) ... and no fear of bloody prison!! for people to cry about being ganked.. i mean everyone knew pyro would be lawless LOL.. they all need to get a grip or go play FF or summit that holds ya hand. Star citizen aint it!! .. o7

[@dex6147]

@LoudGuns better than coddling self victimizing crybabies. CIG killed the FM so those of us that actually learned to fly don't have much else to do. I told the MM clowns that the new FM will kill fun for ALL players, but they were too busy believing CIGs new model would fix anything. Same guys that leave their ships on and open, and shocked when they get jacked.

[@csh5414]

@@dex6147 You seem to be the one crying the loudest. Typical ganker.

[@jimrussell4062]

@@dex6147 That post sounded quite sociopathic. Go back and read it and then stop hiding behind "it''s a game." Imagine someone said that to you on the street in real life. "All these people and their security systems and wanting to not be victims. Serves em right when they leave their car just sitting there waiting to be stolen!" Yet the people wanting to role play honest citizens are the "bad guys" because they don't want crime to be easier. Are you sure it's just a "game" to you?