LPV APPROACHES - PRECISION? or NONPRECISION? GPS approach LPV minimums NOT instrument landing system

[@chrisschack9716]

This certainly explains something I'd been wondering about regarding KAST. The airport has PAPI/VASI on 3 of the 4 runways, but the only approach with an ILS has MALSR lighting.

[@cameronkorrect8620]

Great note, but there is one additional distinction I would make. The ACS states that an LPV approach can qualify as a precision approach for the purposes of fulfilling the requirements of demonstrating the Precision Approach area of operation, so long as it has a DA at or below 300’. In this case, you’re very likely to have some approach lighting system to facilitate the lower DA.

[@gol3tron]

Great video, Jason. The point about approach lighting is HUGE.

[@mattj65816]

No kidding. I always thought the "LPV is not a precision approach" thing was due to some quirk in an ICAO definition, which is what I'd previously heard. Whether that is true or not, the lighting thing was an enormous "duh!" for me. Potentially a totally different visual if you are breaking out at 200 feet.

[@gol3tron]

@@mattj65816true, important to keep in mind and ironic because WAAS makes LPV more accurate than ILS, but the lighting is an important component

[@dr.barbeque2767]

One point of clarification here: even though it's not legally considered a precision approach for the purposes of filing an alternate, you might still get an LPV approach in lieu of a precision approach for the purposes of a checkride or an IPC

[@mrartbridge]

I am grateful to you, Jason, for pointing out the need for airport lighting for a precision approach, an ILS. I have not considered that as an aspect of LPV approach before. Thank you. It’s also considered a non-precision approach for alternate planning, according to ICAO.

[@Parr4theCourse]

Good points on the differences!!!

[@TheFinerPoints]

Thanks!

[@LoungeFlyZ]

Training for my IR rating currently .. so this is very helpful!

[@curryblackwell]

just found your channel last month. Terrific real world teaching. I'm 55, semi retired and got my PPL and getting my IFR because my son is in commercial flight training and want to fly with him. I got a 02, G1 SR22 and loving flying it. Your videos are some of the best produced ones I've seen. I want to do some very basic vlogging, regional locations, etc...Your intros and overall videos are so clear and keep me captivated. I have a couple of go pros, use epidemic for music and can edit "a little"....Any other hints ? I've watched about 20 of your IFR videos in the last few days. Great teaching ! Thanks

[@terrypedersen7]

Canada decided in 2011 to classify an LPV as a Precision Approach and is allowed to be used in lieu of an ILS for flight training and tests. With the limited number of ILS approaches available and the busy environments where one will find them it has really simplified the process.

[@BluBlade-k7b]

I have done instrument approaches with standard IFR radios in a Cessna 172 . I really was easy . . Do your work before you leave the ground Approach your landing airport , request vectors to the localizer and have your nav. radio set up before that . They give heading to the outer marker and altitude . Turn into it and follow your glide slope to the runway , it's just that easy.

[@greysheeum]

Don’t forget to turn on the runway lights to full intensity EVEN IN THE DAYLIGHT. When making an approach close to minimums, give yourself every opportunity to complete the approach. Just because there are no ALS in place DOES NOT mean you have to do it without any lights on the ground.

[@darrylday30]

Good point.

[@krisztinaholly]

Jason, I notice your avionics are almost identical to mine and I find the autopilot use a real bear. It overshoots target altitudes, can stall if you don't monitor VS in the climb, and more often than not won't capture the glideslope. I am getting better, but I still find it more of a liability on approaches and I wonder if I'm missing something. I was wondering if you had done a video yet on how to manage an autopilot system in an IFR environment, or if not I'd really welcome that! I know it's somewhat avionics dependent, but I think there are general lessons to be learned by understanding the proper use of APs generally that could help us with safety and low workload. Thanks! 🙏

[@RobertJones-hm4zt]

GREAT explanation! Thank you.

[@FranksMSFlightSimulator]

Thanks, nice and simple and clear. Cheers from Australia.

[@ryandorn7831]

Brilliant!

[@oneslymike]

Great video and explanation as always, Jason. I've read some schools of thought which state that a DA/DH value is not in and of itself a weather minimum; the only weather landing minimum is the visibility value.

[@TheFinerPoints]

There is a list of things you have to be able to see before you leave the DA. It’s listed in 91.175 - it doesn’t matter much if it’s a ceiling or the visibility that causes you to not be able to see those things - if you can’t see them, you can’t leave the DA.

[@jakew9887]

Great presentation. Thanks

[@tedsaylor6016]

I have a video request (if you have not covered this already). The unfortunate accident of the Lady in Tennessee in the Debonair. The accident has been covered by others, however I would like your take on it - from a Flight Instructor standpoint. If you were instructing her after her previous (less than perfect) instructors - how would you go about fixing things and making her a better pilot?

[@TheFinerPoints]

Thanks for the suggestion! I’ll do it 🙌🏻

[@tedsaylor6016]

@@TheFinerPoints You need to get ahold of the taken down videos they are not fun to watch, Juan Browne (blanciolirio) might have some of them. Not looking for a breakdown of the accident - but rather the training failure(s) / problems that can occur in training that led to a bad situation. I have CFII friends that have lost graduated students and it's a tough deal and factors involved maybe needs to be talked about more. It's a tough, but needed, conversation. You don't need to show the videos, but speak to the overall situation that maybe needs to be addressed.

[@fishhisy]

My instrument checkride, my examiner said since theres no local ILS approaches i just did Rnav approach 4 times to different minimums.

[@Wolficorntv]

Great explanation.

[@glennwatson]

You made a comment that you can make a LPV approach anywhere in the world. Worth noting unless you have a SBAS/LBAS active there will only be LNAV available. A lot of places in the world don't have either yet.

[@blimpcommander1337]

As the GP intercept didn’t occur until .4 miles after passing the FAF, why not hold the 5000’ from the IAF? If 5000’ had been maintained then the GP intercept would have been at the FAF and not after it. Flying the procedure in this manner decreases workload IMO but cutting out the step down. The 4300’ shown on the approach at the FAF is a minimum altitude to cross used more for a step down if flying the LNAV, rather than a requirement if flying the LPV.

[@jasonmfr]

It is also required to be in ICAO Annex 10

[@1dullgeek]

Ok. True. But there are a ton of GPS approaches to LPV mins that are on the same runway as an ILS. Would you consider *that* a precision approach?

[@TheFinerPoints]

In that case they are nearly identical. I’ve had to change what I call precision versus non-precision with the changing times but I agree that an LPV approach to a precision runway is very precise the challenge is remembering they are not all the same like that

[@1dullgeek]

@@TheFinerPoints Makes sense.

[@glennwatson]

My understanding is that LPV and LNAV/VNAV are in a separate category called Approach with Vertical Guidance (APV) which is in a separate category to precision or non-precision approaches and has its own ICAO designation.

[@ivorevans1795]

The fact LPV is not considrered a precision approach is more to do with ICAO paperwork than anything else IMHO. The KEY to this is the decoupling of the GS/GP from the altimeter. Key to precision approach - along with other points discussed here - center's around the accuracy of vertical guidance provided by ground based equipment in the locality. SBAS now adds accuracy as well as the sensitivity "cone". Not very local though.... Also fact one can fly an ILS without a radalt - ie still referencing a baro altitude as a cross check - implies that pre radalts in part 121, ILS' were still considered precision approaches. In both cases - as in this video - pilot using a baro alt to cross check. In both ILS and LPV if you had your QNH wrong the GP/GS would reflect that. If you had your QNH wrong in an LNAV/VNAV this would not be the case.

[@viniciusreis7898]

I still don't understand the answer, even though it's a great video. Ok, there is an SBAS APV, but what about the SBAS CAT I (a precision LPV approach)? Are there any SBAS CAT I approaches in the US NAS? Thank you.

[@michaelrodriguez2920]

Love the videos, however there is a ton of acronyms making it hard to follow your point. In the future can you introduce the acronyms before using them? Thanks!

[@TheFinerPoints]

Sure thanks for the feedback 🙌🏻

[@aviatortrucker6285]

Need a CFI course online or app.

[@TheFinerPoints]

You should check out the Flight chapters of our ground school app to develop lesson plans

[@aviatortrucker6285]

@@TheFinerPoints Gotta get through the FOI’s first.

[@jadeng1147]

Jason, while I'm not familiar with the POH for any Cessnas and have been practicing in Cherokees, typically we are taught first notch of flaps down 1 dot away from GS intercept assuming no circling/ 'real' non-precision approach. Is this just a quirk of the Cessna or is this a practice you do all the time?

[@jasonleach2961]

While training in a Cessna, I am taught that yes, you would add your first notch of flaps at the FAF (which is also usually the GS intercept). However, not always, hence the more rigorous FAF point where you add them. Hope I'm being taught right! LOL

[@MonikaOise]

Jones Betty Jones Patricia Thomas Barbara

[@AustinWirl]

Technically not precision, but practically yes they are a precision approach