LS | The Problem with Taking Mid Turret

[@rythm9]

I love the fact that you have Reven in the call who steelmans the opposite argument, it makes for an actual conversation and great to listen to.

[@The_Lightless]

I didn’t like Reven at first but now I really like him because he always gives the most appropriate opposite argument, it seems like he really understands the average person really well as opposed to LS who has a lot more nuanced argument because he is considering so many more factors

[@MOTOR-er1vg]

just wanna point out that this is not a steelman at all. its the opposite actually, he says its a shitty play but they were emotional

[@quasar2880]

i need to take this mid tier 1 because it opens up the map.

[@cryptidian3530]

Yeah, it forces someone on the enemy team to stay in the vicinity of mid lane since it's the shortest path to the Nexus, giving your team more wiggle room to control other objectives in possible 5v4 scenarios. That's how I understand it.

[@143tg]

@@cryptidian3530this is a joke right?

[@balance1619]

@@cryptidian3530 in solo Q its by far the best tower to take because they usually put ADC in the mid lane past 15 min and its so much easier to make plays when the tower is down in solo Q. there is a youtuber called perryjg who used to be a pro and got rank 2 on NA and in his 3 hour long fundamentals video he says to play for herald when ahead and to AWLAYS herald tier 1 mid no matter what. in pro play though and in this game state specifically you really dont need to take it though, i think pro play is too coordinated to take advantage of it being down. another HUGE reason its good to take is because the outer tier 1 towers are 500x easier to dive than the mid lane one, this all coming from a masters jungle main who's gotten coaching multiple times and they all tell me similar things.

[@DerekGoooo]

Watch what happens if enemy mid freezes in front of tier 2 after you take their tier 1 😂😂

[@143tg]

@@balance1619 i mean proplay/solo q here in this example doesnt matter, you would just herald when you can and its free. Yea everyone is saying the same thing, just grab it when you can.

[@niamnevir3760]

The editing is so good especially in the beginning at the taliyah is in base hypothetical. Sam is a very good guest in that he really tries to break down what the argument is about

[@notengonombre]

its that easy to make good edits? lol

[@Tinr2d2]

I like these analysis or discussion type videos. Please make more they are very insightful

[@biveofhalo]

technically he cant make more intentionally, the guests just has to be available and the topic just randomly comes up

[@Majiger]

@@biveofhalo He could outside of stream. Podcast style. Would be super cool to hear him talk with other coaches, pro players from other games (Plenty from SC2, Aoe2/3/4, WC3,DotA ((PURGE???))) or anyone else he thinks would have a good insight.

[@biveofhalo]

@@Majiger speaking of podcast style kzbin.info/www/bejne/q3y4l3iFZrdnobcsi=fc8eV7Hhp_ZAkSiy

[@sivolock259]

Context: I am a shitty hardstuck platinum league player but a former masters sc2 player. My Take: TLDR: In Starcraft, attacking feels bad because it hurts your economy (even in situations where a risky attack is correct). In League, attacking feels good because it has a lot of potential to BOOST your economy (even in situations where risky attacking is very wrong). Psychologically, I think there's a big difference between sc2 and LoL other than the team aspect. In league, the infrastructure "simplifies" with game time. Towers can die, and they never come back. There isn't even a way to regain health or repair towers. They are a finite resource you have in the game. Because of that, it FEELS really good, psychologically, to damage and destroy your opponent's structures, for the same reasons it feels good to combo your opponent in a fighting game, or turn your creatures sideways in Magic. Oonga Boonga opponent health go down. It is an obvious, simple, countable metric that you can feel good about, even when other bad things are happening on the map, to do "permanent" damage to buildings. Starcraft is the opposite. You start with almost NOTHING, and as the game goes on, you get MORE and MORE structures, and both players are pretty much constantly growing and expanding until someone can brutally crush their opponent in a single decisive turning point that snowballs the game. Buildings are expensive, but if you lose them you can constantly replace them (at the opportunity cost of buying other things you need to win the game. Starcraft economic lead snowballs in a completely different way than league gold advantage snowballs. In SC2, if you are ahead, you are literally able to invest your money into making more money by building bases or harvesters. In League, you can increase your income by invading, or "tech" by capturing global objectives like dragon, but you can't easily (barring specific champion interactions that are minimal) turn your money into more money WITHOUT INTERACTING DIRECTLY WITH YOUR OPPONENT. League snowballing works by maximizing your own income, but once that is achieved the way you get further ahead is REDUCING your opponent's income (ie. taking their dragons, denying them creep gold and experience). In Sc2 you can "passively" snowball and FORCE the player who is behind to attack into you to restabilize the game state. In League, there is a finite amount of income you can have relative to the time of the game state. Both teams have access to the same income stream. Assuming everyone "CSes perfectly" and clears efficiently, everyone will have the exact same income. Once you reach your map side's theoretical income cap as a team, the only way you grow your advantage is by seeking out your opponents to interact with, either by killing them or invading their camps (or contesting neutral objectives). "Full Build" in League is also quite different than "population cap" in sc2. Even after hitting pop cap, there are LOTS of ways to continue to grow stronger - building a bank to remax, getting every tech in the game, expanding everywhere, building 50 planetary fortresses, etc), so there is no pressure that your advantage will dissipate once both teams hit full build. In Starcraft your theoretical max power level plateaus, but is still nearly uncapped (whereas in League infinite scaling is much less commonplace). In a VERY loose way, you could compare it to chess and go. The board state in chess simplifies as the game approaches late game (that DOESN'T make it easier to play than early game, if anything the reduction in options makes taking the wrong path even more punishing). Whereas in go, the game state becomes MORE complex as more and more stones are placed on the board and the positions can suddenly warp. (Disclaimer: I am not a high level chess or go player, but this is just another parallel example of material increasing with game time or decreasing with game time). Psychologically, doing nothing in League does not FEEL like you are getting ahead. Your income stream remains stagnant. In League what actually matters for winning is your RELATIVE power, not your absolute power (ie. if you could hypothetically spend 5000g to make your opponents lose 8000g it would almost certainly be objectively good). But it can be hard to remain objective about it in the moment, during a stressful game, when your goal is to "survive" to a point where you composition automatically scales you into a win. In Starcraft 2, attacking and making aggressive actions is a HUGE commitment because it cripples your economy. Every single unnecessary bit of money you spend on army that is not accomplishing anything is money that you could have spent on workers or bases that very quickly (relative to League of Legends game pacing) pay for themselves and more. Any time you build units to attack or be active/aggressive without dealing equivalent or greater economic damage to your opponent means that you are not only losing the money you "waste" on army, you are also losing the opportunity cost of the money that the workers would make that you could spend on more workers to make more money. The cost for unsuccessful aggression is exponentially snowballing in a way that I don't think most League players are familiar with. It would be like if cull costed 50g, you could buy an unlimited number per game, and they didn't take item slots. You would just make them constantly (which is what people in fact do in sc2 with workers). Obviously, League is not balanced around that because the item economy works very different than the unit economy of sc2, but it's just to illustrate that the magnitude of economic snowballing is not equivalent across both games. Because of that, it is TOTALLY natural for a sc2 player to take the least risky option - snowballing a tiny knife edge advantage like compound interest. In League, even in situations where that is also the correct line, it feels awful because it feels like you are "not getting" stuff. TLDR: In Starcraft, attacking feels bad because it hurts your economy (even in situations where a risky attack is correct). In League, attacking feels good because it has a lot of potential to BOOST your economy (even in situations where risky attacking is very wrong). Yes, you SHOULDN'T let psychological and emotional states effect your decisions in game if you want to maximize your winning chances, but we are all fallible human beings in fleshy meat suits, not terminators, and every solo queue player should be familiar with this already. Even at the highest level, it is easy to fall into these kinds of psychological pitfalls, but by playing and thinking critically about the game we both individually and collectively as a meta get closer the truth.

[@99temporal]

As a counterpoint, I was also a master sc2 player, but I was extremely aggressive: Attacking in StarCraft does hurt your econ, but also hurts the enemy econ. If you can, for example, destroy an orbital/nexus/hatchery, you're actively removing mules/chrono boosts/injections and larvae from the opponent... And even if you only manage to kill a few workers, this will pay in the long run. Like, if I can trade 4 roaches for one or two supply depos, and 6 workers in the early game, I'd always do it, because it will pay itself in the long run(SPECIALLY if the other guy gets supply blocked) The only thing you have to consider is if you can survive a counter attack. Because as long as you make the move first, even if you trade equally, you're still winning, because the damage to the economy is cumulative in relation to time

[@sivolock259]

@@99temporal That's a really good point as well! I was a very defensive macro zerg player which you can probably figure out from my write up perspective :) I agree completely with you, I was focusing on the defensive/economic growth aspect, but the inverse is absolutely true too. Cumulative economic damage is just as devastating, losing an early 3 workers can catastrophically end your game. I think this naturally feeds a more calculated mindset than league does. EVERYTHING (whether attacking, building a worker, researching a tech) has potential to snowball exponentially and end the game on the spot. In league, even when you are massively ahead, you must personally deny your opponent each individual minion or jungle camp to snowball. And even then, there are a lot of anti-snowballing mechanics in League like turrets, minion bias towards losing lanes, and shutdowns that actually make being behind in league of legends significantly less awful than being behind in sc2 and artificially increase your potential income. You can still get put on a dragon timer, but that does not snowball the same way, most of the dragon stats are scaling oriented. I think I have more chances to win a league game down 10,000g by maybe scaling to late game or getting a lucky pick right before elder dragon than I do trying to win a starcraft2 game after losing a bunch of early workers. Obviously neither scenario is good, you would rather avoid it in the first place. But the anti-snowballing combined with the chaos of teamplay makes it so that even in the direst situation you can have a small fraction of a chance for a lucky baron steal, whereas once I'm ahead enough in sc2 I can a-move their base and take my hands off the keyboard.

[@v5k456jh3]

can you shave this down to like 10 words?

[@halowave]

@@v5k456jh3 Bro just copy + paste in chat gpt why waste your time commenting this

[@v5k456jh3]

@@halowave it's a joke

[@Kuro-mp8ej]

Liandry's Salesman is back

[@zezanje1]

this was a great discussion, not only while it was focused on explaining why mid t1 was not that important in this scenario, but also when they started talking about how sc2 players practice scenarios. the thing is that sc is by no means the only game where that kind of practice is the norm, if anything i feel like league is in the minority when it comes to that. for example in cs, the most basic example of infinite repetition and scenarios would be community crafted maps like yprac where you would be tasked with clearing a site against people that might be hiding anywhere, and by playing those maps over and over and over again, you come to a conclusion that there is just one way of entering a site that is absolutely superior to any other. after you have mastered that, you can go onto retake servers where you play x vs x retake scenarios in with randomized economies, spawn points, plant positions, utility etc. and with that kind of practice eventually all players within a team become fully aware of everything that could possibly be happening at each point of time during the game. that is why you would see pros kill a player or two and then flick 140 degrees and kill the third player that was flanking them because he was fully aware of that being the possibility. you eventually get the feeling of how long each flank can last, and thats why these guys seem like they are cheating. the only variable that happens in these scenarios is which angles and places the flanker didnt bother to check, until when did he have the balls t keep running or walking with his knife out etc. so tldr. practicing these imaginary scenarios by randomization has proved to be a way superior way of practicing in all sports or games in which it could be done. even in chess people learn through repetition and analyzation of previous matches. that is why there are videos of magnus carlsen being shown a board with seemingly randomly placed pieces, he will know that that was a match between this and that player, and in many cases he would be able to play out the rest of the match as well. riot should really look to make a practice gamemode where you would be placed in these different scenarios so that the playerbase as a whole can transcend to a newer level because by repetition of these randomized scenarios, it is extrmely easy to start to understand what the actual best play would be. the entire game could grow from it masively.

[@SkillsByNiels]

Yes this is an issue in league, the only thing people can practice is early game repeatly. It would be so great to just play out a dive over and over again

[@danmkng]

An opportunity or amazing idea of design for a super reimagined, truly in-depth and useful tutorial mode/practice tool in League.

[@The_Lightless]

@@SkillsByNielsYeah the problem is it’s a 5v5 map game where too many players are too far apart and making too many decisions too quickly. Like for example, if you are analyzing early game as a laner, the most correct and safe play can just be completely shut down if the enemy jungler is griefing and goes for a horrendously bad, 90/10% coin flip play.

[@SkillsByNiels]

@@The_Lightless well you just need to play to that, like a jungle going for a gank should be active part in your gameplan, not something out of nowhere. You only need to look for leads if they fit in. That is what you have to train being on the same page. as an example if you know you can't control the wave you have to make it into a slow push and have the jungler be there around the time it goes to the enmy side. you can plan that with the speed of the wave. And you can train that repeatdly

[@animeworld5847]

​@@The_Lightless That's why you allow community maps. Example map 1 : You are top, behind in gold and cs, enemy jungle is coming to dive you, survive. Example map 2 : You are a support at drake pit, 3 people are fighting you for it, make sure your jungle survives and takes drake. Example map 3 : You are an ADC in a teamfight, kite. Some people will fail, others will succeed. With enough people doing it, we'll come with a formula. We have a community dedicated enough to be able to explain esoteric concepts like pressure and tempo in a game with no indicator, I say trust them.

[@raphaelcheng2254]

So its the rift herald discussion all over again. Its not that taking the objective is actively bad for the game like it is with early inhibs, its that teams are over committing resources and risking their game on an objective thats basically inconsequential. If its free, you always take it, its always plus gold for you. But if its not free, don't force it unless theres no other way for your team to advance the game. But I think Reven states it well; on first glance of the tweet as well as the way LS argues it, it seems like he means that taking the turret is actively bad, even when its free. He says obviously thats not what he means, but I don't think its that obvious based on how he words things. Like even this video's title supports this, it makes it seem like taking mid turret is always bad.

[@storycentricgaming2018]

Sure. But as an adult who is capable is thinking beyond a title, I decided to hear him out before making a snap judgement. People have no desire to understand things being said. They'd rather just react to something being said. And even his tweet doesn't really imply that it's always bad. He's talking about a specific game and specific moment where a team giga threw for mid turret. Knowing the context of the game would also give me some insight into what he's talking about.

[@raphaelcheng2254]

I mean absolutely, we should listen beyond the title. But I'm just confused as to why the title is not helping the argument. Why isn't the title "The problem with forcing mid turret" instead of what it is? The current title makes it seem like there is a problem inherently with taking mid turret, which is not true and also not what LS is arguing. And in the tweet, absolutely nowhere does he say anything about this overcommitment of resources to force mid turret that he thinks is bad, all he argues is that it's 112 gold and it's not going to win you the game. Everyone in their right mind is going to read that and think, "well not taking the 112 gold if it were free isn't going to win me the game either" and thus no one understands what he is trying to say. If it were so obvious, Reven would not need to clarify what LS meant before discussing the topic in the video.

[@Tundra_Hunter]

​@@raphaelcheng2254forcing is a perfect word that dismisses the idea about it being inherently bad to take turret. Also whats the point in taking issue with a youtube title??? Its clickbait most of the time either way. So inconsequential to the actual argument at hand.

[@drmaidenless]

He's content-brained. I don't think he realizes it considering he seems genuine enough

[@chocola4588]

@@storycentricgaming2018 It's Ls. He is always toxic. he doesn't get to cry when he gets the same energy back. His tweet clearly implies that the mid turret is only worth 112G which is plain out wrong.

[@Jace9IX]

Max's comment at the end of the video is so so funny hahaha Would be great content to see how a top SC2 pro sees league

[@PecoMid]

Yea I think its super interesting to hear an outsider perspective like that as well. I think about Artosis saying " When ahead get more ahead" in Starcraft ALL THE TIME when playing league. It really helps.

[@kaibabun]

Grubby played some league, there's another rts pro

[@Rhyolite-hyena]

​@@PecoMid That sentence bites back insanely hard in the hand of most players bc they would just start to coin flip everything not knowing that "getting ahead" is not an immediately better chance at combat in that current time frame.

[@Rivalrvn]

banger thumbnail give raise asap

[@zan6585]

sry I'm having a bad day

[@143tg]

I honestly feel like you should talk about this on your next vid, since you have a huge casual player base that watches and this type of game knowledge would be useful to them and overall education of LoL. LS has been saying this for soo many years even in coaching sessions. yet this concept is so hard for casual players. I think you would be doing a great service to the league community by bringing this information to more people

[@dominic5506]

It‘s so weird to me, it‘s always been the same thing with LS on twitter. He puts down a tweet like this, which is worded extremely one sided not leaving any room to discuss, making this decision seem completely ridiculous („feel obliged by a cosmic force“ like why type that, the play isn‘t good but there is so much more going into it and not just „T1 Tower bad since 9 years“) and then he gets upset that people won‘t discuss this in a reasonable manner? The issue is much more complex than what the tweet makes it out to be (very nicely highlighted in this video at the beginning by the others in call) so of course people will reply in the same way the tweet was made.

[@AlexisNess-mn4zw]

People reply that way when he makes the clear point as well Otherwise teams would stop fucking having hot dates at mid

[@dominic5506]

@@AlexisNess-mn4zw What you are saying is hypothetical and besides the point. He is phrasing his tweet in this way, then it‘s stupid to complain about people replying in the same manner. And you are just showing the same thing, „people would stop having hot dates in mid“ is the same oversimplification and ridiculing this tweet does and exactly my point.

[@AlexisNess-mn4zw]

@@dominic5506 Not my fault if you follow LS and think he would genuienly say you should never in your life take mid t1

[@dominic5506]

@@AlexisNess-mn4zw It's that hard for him to make a tweet in a reasonable manner that you'd rather have people guess what he actually means? okay.

[@XIplupIX]

@@AlexisNess-mn4zw He makes a clear point, doesnt mean he is right. The best teams have a different view than him(i mean in this case tehy probably didtn even see his video), so did caedral for example aswellin certain aspects and he watched this video. Just cause ls says something does not mean that he is right and everyone should blindly follow it. I always hear the argumetn that pros refuse to be creative or take in any kind of weird champions. But we had lane swaps, unmeta picks(janna top, adc top mid, double adc bot and etc, nasus garen mid). This isnt the case they try different stuff they simply just come to their own conclusion what is right and what is wrong. And if you check the lol pro scene in different leagues you can see that the lower the league the more stuff from ls is incoperated, like freezing, different drafting and etc(primeleague is great to see that). The higher it goes the more tempo oriented the gaem becomes. It is way more commont not to freeze but rather to kill minions behind enemies turret, to have a better reset and keep just pushing and pressuring jugnle turret map. People dont pull so they can get push and etc. SO TLDR LS has his opinion and it is fine but acting as he is proving it being objectively wrong is stupid, pros listen to lots of stuff they simply have a different philosophy about the game whcih currently seems also to work the best, atleast seeing as the higher hte play is the more it goes away from ls philisophiy.

[@perigin3]

The thing about making decisions ahead of time they Rayner was talking about is true in every sport/situation. Humans are on the whole pretty bad at snap decision making, which is why every professional is rarely actually thinking something up in their field, but rather recalling something that they've seen before. Obviously this is true with high stress jobs like soldiers and surgeons, where you practice practice practice so that you don't have to think in the moment, but it's also true across every sport. Chess players for example are famously stereotyped as incredibly smart and calculating, but studies show that they're not smarter than the average person, they just have an extreme memory for familiar chess positions (i.e. they've seen this board state before, or a fragment of it, and know what the best response WAS). Outside of the endgame, the vast majority of a classic chess match is simply a test of knowledge, studying, and memory.

[@Londronable]

I mean, you basically explained Pep's thought process. No, soccer players shouldn't be deciding where to be. They should know where to be and know where every other player will be. Pep's team is basically a collection of automatons. They need the skill to execute it of course. The above is obviously very simplified. For those not aware. Pep's the manager of arguably the best soccer team in the world.

[@thomasw624]

“I made a poorly worded tweet and rage baited” why do people take things out of context? Brother you put it out of context.

[@Ivan-A]

all the shade at the end and that laughter are giving me life

[@ArthurAtlas]

What Reynar (sorry if misspelt) said around 9:55 is the key, Starcraft is just infinitely more repeatable, while any given League scenario is very unique and different players even have different interpretations of what should happen. That's why it's way easier to fumble in League.

[@chickencoopououwu2584]

But on the other hand, a SC player have a much higher sustained workload than an average League player. The 5 players on stage should be expected to make correct macro decisions. There's a solid 20 second window from when they started grouping to the start of the fight where not much was even happening. If they can't correct their decision in that window, I'd lean toward a fundamental lack of understanding rather than a "fumble". And if you've been watching league for a while, you know that's pretty realistic. League pros are some of the least credible, most fallible "professionals" I've seen, eSports or otherwise. Either way tho, we have to draw a line between "reasonable mistakes due to volatile gameplay" and... just bad. Just because League is more volatile doesn't mean every mistake is excusable.

[@Jaime_Protein_Cannister]

that couldn't be more false , League is not that deep at all , you have no idea how many different aspects of the game A Starcraft pro has to have down to memory muscle. The range of conciousenss of your typical LCS pro is too limited, compared to a starcraft pro... let alone top 8. Reynor is being super humble , way too humble. There's nothing unique about getting caught in the river facechecking and so on or pushed up too far for the 10th time in the same best of 3 series. League Pro's can't get their positioning right , even tho they control single character... How many times do you see in LCS , adc carry illegally getting caught in front of the team and his Tank support chilling behind him.

[@ShjadeNexayre]

@@Jaime_Protein_Cannister It isn't that League is deeper, per se, it's that it has far, far more permutations to consider than Starcraft 2. Think about the fundamental components: SC2 only has six possible matchups: TvT, TvP, TvZ, PvP, PvZ, ZvZ. That's it. There are no other options. Within those matchups, you only need to know the units available to your race and your opponent's race, and the layout of the map you're currently on. Now, SC2 does have many more maps available that change your options (on Map 1 you can easily take a third and reasonably hold a fourth, on Map 2 you might be stuck on two bases for a while, etc.), and these are significant differences that will call for different build orders and allow for different cheese options to exploit or require your attention to defend, but they're still all variations of the same six matchups. I'm not going to even bother looking up how many champions are in League because I feel pretty confident it's more than enough for the number of 5v5 possible team compositions to wildly outnumber "six." Take the team coordination part entirely out, say it's a 1v1 game where each player controls all five champs on their side: you're still going to have to learn a huge range of champion interactions and possibilities at all stages of the game (fighting a level 3 Aatrox is different from fighting a level 9 Aatrox, fighting one that's behind is different from one that's fed, tank vs bruiser vs damage item builds, etc.) - essentially everything an SC2 player needs to prepare for in a given race matchup you need to know for *every champion your opponents are likely to pick.* You have a lot less to *do* with that information, you're not running a macro engine for your economy while also micromanaging an entire army in multiple places around the map, but it's still a lot of prep you need to have in your head for all the things your opponents *could* do and what you should prioritize based on what they're prioritizing, your teams' relative gold, purchased items, level disparity, etc. The moment to moment gameplay decisions are less complex, but they're drawn from a much wider pool of possible moments. League's an inch deep but a mile wide. Because of this, not having the ability to freely replay custom scenarios over and over again to drill them into a team is a pretty significant disadvantage compared to how you can practice for specific situations in SC2. You can't really set up a custom lobby with everyone set to specific levels with specific items and place the minion waves where you want them to practice approaches to the drake pit and have effective practice as a team at the drop of a hat the way you can scrim with a teammate to practice defending against a widow mine rush that's been giving you trouble. This is *why* Starcraft pros can develop all that muscle memory: they run it into their bones with methodical repetition outside of real competitive game time. League teams don't really have that, the game isn't built for it. That's not an excuse for League players making bad plays. Starcraft players make bad plays sometimes, too. It happens. But they're way behind on practice options by comparison.

[@Jaime_Protein_Cannister]

@@ShjadeNexayre there is only a handfull of meta champs youre making a very dishonest argument with a massive exageration. In fact right now with the ad carry meta being so stale you couldnt pick worse time to make that argument. If there is 30 meta champs in any given meta the that meta is pretty good. On top of that you only need to know a handfull of match ups within your own lane , rather than ins and outs of all 30 champions. On top of that you can simplify by classifying champions by archetype outside of your lane. You dont need to know 10th of available outdated champions in order to be competitive. In fact league is so simple that you can become a master by playing a single character , its called 'otp' one trick pony. Very few games let you get away with that

[@ShjadeNexayre]

@@Jaime_Protein_Cannister You don't need more info than that to be competitive in part because no one else knows more than that either, because of a lack of tools to practice getting into the nitty gritty. In other words: the competitive bar is comparatively lower for the game. If you think you only need to know the matchups within your lane, you're saying you don't need to think about how the other champs on the map affect your rotations, how to approach drake/baron/other objectives, what your overall pace for the game should be (push aggressively? turtle up and farm?), how champions behave differently within the same archetype, etc. This kind of thinking is why players make the kinds of simple, straightforward mistakes talked about in this video. It's myopic. Even with a pool of only 30 meta champs, the possible permutations of those champs 5v5 still vastly outstrips the matchup options in SC2, so it doesn't really change my point. I wasn't exaggerating.

[@david_lam1666]

Love this type of content. Seems like this type of content is missing from you for a long time. I know that its because its just like screaming into the clouds as your morello vs liandries, "pressure", renekton stuff, but I genuinely enjoy this kind of content.

[@boshiwoshi]

There's a high pitched noise in the video

[@not_simon6983]

omg I didnt notice it at first and after reading your comment I hear it

[@stephenoneil4266]

pointing it out was a crime dude, what the fuck

[@ACE112ACE112]

When is the noise present? I don't hear it.

[@ACE112ACE112]

How old are you? You got some good ears?

[@jeyserreacts3444]

He has a crt running

[@divineoblivion1]

I really like what you guys did in this video and found the information very insightful (especially for a bad player). I would love to see more of these content if you can make it!

[@Verlisify]

Critical thinking skills are just gone in modern times. Its ruining social media and gaming.

[@trevormeed7044]

In age of empires terms, you have econ lead and town center lead. Build up your resource to go to imperial age and get unit advantage. You do not need to just blindly build and throw units at the enemy defense that is locked down at a 1 tc. They want to trade and mabye go all in. If you are at a stable spot, saving up your resources or spending time to gather more is the optimal play, again its lookint at the 'best optimal plays' you can of course just do whatever and win and throw off the enemy, but the more you do weird wonky stuff, the less it works out. That is why as a strategy you should always look to do the most 'meta' play, and not just the random what 'feels good'.

[@Katreat4000]

I loved this type of video. Having Sam made it extra good, he is really good at chunking the question down and making it more easily understood in a broader context, but also precising LS answers, LS mind is like too good for his mouth as I myself is autistic (aspergers syndrome) so I know its very hard to properly explain oneself to others because we have a million things we want to say, but can't really put it all into a single sentence which leads to miscommunication because normal people can't keep track of 7-8 things in a convo at a time :P Keep doing you LS, glad to see you doing much better now that you might not have to mask as much as you've seem to have done previously in life.

[@Jaime_Protein_Cannister]

They can follow 7-8 things, what they can't do is follow a disjointed conversation.

[@cunha231]

14:56 just cracked me up 😂😂

[@darkumineru1681]

1:22 and mid turret is not what unlocks jng camps its mainly the tier 2 side turrets (or in some cases if u get all 3 tier 1 u can get into enemy jng easily even has solo laner)

[@Thooorin]

Banger video with a good group of takes

[@dragomaster2422]

Sam did really well understanding both sides of the argument, but ultimately I am always here for LS and the actual logic that goes into a discussion. I don’t have Twitter so I didn’t know even know this was a huge point of contention. Really funny and informative video.

[@freddie4682]

I agree with Caedrel's take more. LS is just nitpicking. He has logic, but I think he focuses on why it's wrong because he wants to defend his point, instead of why you should/shouldn't take the turret.

[@benlapak187]

Refreshing video. I like the mini edited podcast discussion format. good to see max waldo back talking league!

[@thomasung1700]

Slight difference in league to StarCraft/other RTS is the constant minion spawn and movement. Wave state is vision as well as tempo. If you take your resources first, then you can get first rotation while the enemy has to take their resources or they get lost to tower. It also gives you deeper vision due to minion crash which allows a deeper ward line. The 5v5 as opposed to 1v1 is still a valid point in that practice reps are still largely done in solo queue as opposed to 5v5 pre-made. In solo queue it’s almost always best to push. Priority -> rotation or priority -> better recall timings or priority -> tower platings is what climbs. Playing slow/scaling means you’re reliant on your team doing their job which introduces more variance that’s outside your control to winning the game. It’s obviously more nuanced in pro play as with organisation; your side lanes don’t get punked by a roam when you freeze (though you still run the risk of getting stuck in a lose the wave to match the enemy rotate situation). In the example in the video, handshaking mid is probably the more correct call and the herald not necessary; but let’s be real here, mid tower there or not, TL’s not freezing that and the handshake in mid lane would continue.

[@wewillrockyou1986]

Its pretty crazy how this game has been played for well over a decade but still nobody understands the concept of doing nothing to get an advantage. I think the players are partly to blame but also Riot for years has been trying to avoid "scaling" and "passive" pro play, trying to pander to their own concept of "watchability" rather than making a game that has strategic depth and a sustainable future. The hilarious thing about the "opens up the map" comments is always that its just a dead end line of argument, its like people have this idea "opening up the map" passively gives you some advantage, but nobody can ever describe that advantage or quantify it in any way other than "opening the map".

[@pocketblue]

It's a very hard concept to grasp in any game that rewards you for being proactive. Right now witnessing it in fighting games. People refuse to believe that playing "slow and reactive" is just as much of a decision as making any other move. It's perceived as "safe", and whenever it turns out to be countered by rushdown (as it should), the players usually blame the "random, mashing" opponent or the game mechanics that allowed this to happen

[@gergelyritter4412]

It opens the map for you and limits the map for the oponent. It's a question of space. If I have taken enemy mid-turret, you are literally controlling more of the map, since your turret stands. It's a question of pressure. Turrets provide, at least to some degree, protection from the enemy. If you take a turret, it means that your line of protection is much further back. Fighting becomes more risky, as well as taking camps. If you take a turret, paths open up, which you could previously not been able to take. You may argue, that if you take mid tower and now the lane is longer, that it becomes more risky for both players to fight, which is actually false. You are in a much safer spot, if you have taken enemy turret. Why is that? Well, on a fundemental level, if it's bad for one team, it can't be bad for the other as well, but here is the technical explaination. Given 50-50 strength with no dive possibility, you can't fight the enemy under their turret, because you die. Given 50-50, but the turret has been taken, you now CAN fight the enemy, where the turret stood. Ganks can be countered and or played around. You can also just, no push up that far. If the enemy then tries to push up as far as they would have with a standing turret, you now have a really long stretch of map, in which you can catch them. So if you don't occupy the space that you gain by taking mid turret, you are making the enemy more vulnerable. If you do occupy the space that you gain, you are opening up new possibilities for your team in terms of pathing and map control through wards. Now, was 100t justified in their actions? Hell no. It was a shiit play. You don't know where Taliyah is, yet you put down Herald and then you get caught, because you couldn't take mid turret. The play is bad. Honestly, I don't even know what we are debating here. If you can take mid-turret, take it. If you can't, don't.😂

[@Omegeddon]

Because doing nothing doesn't make for good esports. Everybody complained about farming for 30 mins to have one team fight and end so Riot has tried to force it into not being passive

[@gregorysheridan2015]

​@@pocketblue I think you actually just fell into the same argument as "take tier 1 because it opens the map" with that fighting game analogy. The reason why defensive play is so successful is because just dashing in any fighting game is a commitment. You are committing to something. By not doing anything you are giving yourself many options to play around. Scrubs lose to rush down because they don't understand frame data and have not been put into "scrap" situations enough to learn to reset neutral which is what safe characters want. Committing to a option is generally a bad thing because you're throwing the ball into the other players court and hoping they choose wrong.

[@pocketblue]

@@gregorysheridan2015 no-no, I'm talking about intermediate players who are just 1 good step below tournament players. Those who labbed all the combos and setups, and think that's what fighting games are all about. Then proceed to cry about mechanics and characters, lol Every move in neutral, including doing nothing, is a potential risk, and you have to learn to weight these options. At least that's what I was taught, and it made perfect sense to me. Any decision can be extremely good or bad, depending on whether you got enough time to read your opponent better

[@Yonen1688]

Great video redeems bad tweet Please have more guests on, they draw out the deep knowledge from you that is difficult to articulate alone.

[@nicolarobatto7469]

I think with the mid tier 1 discourse a lot of people confuse cause and effect. In many games when a team takes tier 1 and then steals camps they do it because they are strong. They are not stealing camps because they took tier 1. The cause is that they are strong and winning and with enough pressure and tempo on the map, not that they took tier 1, which is another effect of their pressure what you see might be deceiving! our monke brain makes patterns up and link as cause & effect things that have no causal relationship just because they happened in sequence. It's also the reason why so many people believe in superstitions. They see a black cat, then something bad happens and they think black cats are unlucky. Monke brain stupid

[@breeze0203]

While that is certainly a point you can make, the fact that the turret is sitting in between the opposing jungle quadrants makes it harder to contest camps. Also the access to wards in the middle of the map seeing the enemy cross midlane gives a lot of information making it yet again easier to contest camps and/or know their timers. But overall the "being ahead" part is probably more impactful

[@Belegor]

Taking mid tier 1 is part of the arguably well understood "snowball playbook" where you capitalize on all the ascribed benefits. However 100T should seek to outscale here instead of snowball. I think like you said people tend to default to the "snowball playbook" because thats how you win a lot of your games, especially soloQ tends to be all about snowballing.

[@ontherightside2139]

Opening the map means you can ward enemy jungle and the extra push in mid means you can move on side to get number advantage so u always have prio on neutral objectives.

[@chickencoopououwu2584]

That can happen, but not this game, that's the point. You gain more by not doing that. It's so fucking weird why people make blanket statements like this, like, what you said can be true, but that's not the fucking point, the point is there is an alternative that is lower risk and higher reward.

[@ontherightside2139]

@@chickencoopououwu2584 Im more referring to blanket ridicule of the term "opens up the map" I think hes being either intentionally dense regarding the meaning or he doesn't value it all which imo is just poor understanding of macro.

[@aquacustom.]

In fighting games a lot of games have adopted replay takeover (tekken 8, uni2, ggac+r, sf6) and the mindset of "replay the same scenario and find the best option," rainer (sp) mentioned is pretty inherent in fighting games as well. Interesting conversation

[@justinhughes6933]

The "resuming from replay" or "play out a scenario" idea does seem really interesting (potentially even relevant to the public if you can tune the elo of the bots - imagine: "It's game 5 of the 2022 Worlds Finals, and DRX are poised to take baron. You are Varus - can you steal the objective and turn around the game?"). I bet this comes out in the next 3-5 years

[@tylerkay825]

The issue with practicing very very specific scenarios is that there is so much variables in the game that sinking time into a *can you snipe baron with varus Q with these 9 other specific champions in the game*. Obviously that sounds insane. You are way better off just generally practicing varus Q and then getting real time data (which champs/sums/item timings/game state etc.) And playing it out from there

[@Jaime_Protein_Cannister]

@@tylerkay825 Pro's in starcraft would practice these things without tools , because These tools weren't available from the start. The reason these tools were put into the game is ,Blizzard Realized people were trying actively to get into those position practicing with fellow team mates in 1v1 2v2 and so on and blizzard only facilitated what Starcraft 2 Pro's were willing to do ANYWAY. The amount of variables in league isn't that many compared to starcraft, the only thing that is different is the level of study that Starcraft Pro's go into. Starcraft is in that sense like chess where even when you get off your computer you can still think about the game and still study by virtue of imagining the game. Your top 10 players , probably know some 50 builds between all the matchups with 2-3 variations each and roughly can imagine how the game should played out on the "meta" maps , up to 20 minutes or further... in theory. I doubt majority of League pro would even entertain the idea of studying the game to that depth... They just soloq mindlessly as long as their hands are good enuf to keep their job

[@zyroberk]

14:25 to solve this, LS should adopt brainrot language to bridge the gap between him and the twitter keyboard warriors

[@Cyllid]

I think it's because even when a SC2 player is doing "nothing" they are still DOING something. A LoL player is clearing camps/waiting for the wave. It doesn't feel like WINNING. Not nearly as viscerally as a single SC2 player consolidating their lead. A league equivalent would be top lane freezing their opponent out of lane. They're happy to be patient because they FEEL like they're winning.

[@LSXYZ9]

A sc2 and LoL playing both passively allowing for economy (gold gain) to occur and nothing else is exactly the same thing, I'm just assuming you don't think it is because you don't play starcraft.

[@alex222333ful]

​@@LSXYZ9 You almost never just wait for money in StarCraft 2. Raynor says he sometimes "does nothing" but funny enough I wouldn't be able to keep up with him during those times. When he's ahead in economy he is still constantly spamming out buildings or units, spending the cash he has, doing small attacks to free up supply for the more impactful units, injecting, scouting for what the opponent is doing or responding to his opponents army movements defensively. When Raynor does nothing for 5 minutes he'll still average more than double my APM most likely. Meanwhile I can realistically keep up with faker when he is just walking back to lane or waiting under tower for the next wave to arrive. I'm only plat but to me SC2 just literally has 0 downtime because I know that I constantly have things to do, while league has a lot of downtime where you can get antsy I think it's fair to say that all those tasks (even though to pros they are menial) help satisfy the itch you feel when you are just camping under tower waiting for the wave for like ten seconds. In sc you just have more things to do that further the game state, even though the strat is to sit back and wait. Obviously I know that by "doing nothing" you were referring to not making huge attacks, and I agree with your take on the mid tier 1. I think the commenter is right about the emotional impact that sitting back can have in either game though.

[@LSXYZ9]

​@alex222333ful man, when reynor who is master tier/almost GM LoL is making the analogy and responding to it, he is also understanding it doesn't mean DO NOTHING. He literally says "tech up" and macro (build army). The LoL equivalent is to farm waves and jungle camps and wait for item spikes... why did you just write so much when it's so obvious what his do nothing comment means? It isn't nothing in the literal definition of the word, and he even describes it.

[@itachi60001]

@@LSXYZ9 you should arrange a tournament where you put him on a team against another team, im super curious with how hed manage there, because my inclination is that he would play much more scrappy and aggressive because of the nature of the game, and if he wouldnt he would end up losing most games, but im super curious if im wrong and itd be an amazing opportunity to showcase the point (which on a very fundamental level i think is correct).

[@alex222333ful]

@@LSXYZ9 My guy, I know that. But what me and the other commenter are describing is that you still FEEL like you're doing something in StarCraft. I know both in LoL and in SC2 it's strategically speaking the same thing. But it's easier to do nothing when you're actually doing tons of shit versus sitting there while thousands of people are watching while you do LITERALLY nothing. Should that matter to pro players? Fuck no. I 100% agree with your take from the vid (as I said) but the commenter is just trying to say that sitting back in SC2 *FEELS* better than in league (at least that's the way I'm reading it) and I would agree. But no one here is saying that fighting tooth and nail for that tier 1 is somehow good in that situation.

[@timverbraak4073]

12:55 I get that there isnt really one agreed upon what is right overall but this is definitely something that should be discussed by teams internally and be clear for everyone in the last weeks of season. his argument is very valid in soloq but in this environment I think this shouldnt be an issue for a team anymore this deep in the season

[@nandoborchardt4327]

NOOO WAY REYNOR IS HERE OMG THE ITALIAN STALLION

[@theoya]

5:07 - He makes a good point about the stress on the players to not get roasted. This exists in hockey, where a significant point deficit makes the statistically optimal choice to pull the goalie. The greater the deficit, the earlier the team should pull the goalie. In reality, this is almost never done because if the gamble doesn't pay off the team loses in a blowout and no coach wants to get clowned on because they lost 12-0 when it could have been 4-0.

[@redmouse22]

In my experience, it pretty much always boils down to it being a team setting. It seems that 1v1 players (sc, card games especially) understand this concept BUT when you put the exact same players that play those games in the team setting in mobas they also fall into the GOTTA GET RESOURCES NOW! mind set. I think a large portion of the shift is that if you have literally a single player on the team that isnt on the same power spike mindset (or making a bad emotional choice) they will just throw the entire game from looking for a play - so the players are conditioned to just kinda go along with the stupid players to atleast have a chance of making the play a 50/50 instead of like 5/95 lol

[@redmouse22]

just finished the video -- Pretty much exactly what Reven is saying at around 5:00 is correct lol

[@ACE112ACE112]

Is this morseso due to people thinking "being on the same page is better than one person going in by himself and dying?

[@redmouse22]

@@ACE112ACE112 yea i would say is a line of the same thought process

[@qt9296]

@@redmouse22 maybe to help this, they can add more options to voting, similar to what they have with dragon/baron votes. have vote for giving dragon/baron, fight vote, farm vote. something to get everyone on the same page.

[@MSsupremeMC]

Biggest argument that was not brought up by anyone but sort of almost touched on was that in a real League of Legends environment, even if you could recreate the exact same scenario and practice it over and over, in real games there are too many variables for that same situation to ever come up again in the future, very slim chance but especially with the variables of how many champions there are in the game, different builds even if the comps end up the same, different map state, the same situation will almost never happen again in any game of league, ever.

[@Salaryman_]

Mid tier 1 being down opens safer access to enemy jg camps, so it can amplify the ability to increase a gold and xp lead in that single aspect. Then it enables you to push the minion wave deeper on the map before you want to take dragon/baron. Surely saying Tier 1 mid tower opens up the map is correct

[@Salaryman_]

If the argument is purely about WHEN to take mid tier1, that is of course more nuanced. You would want to employ strategy that enhances your chances of accelerating economy of of that, what is the immediate domino effect. Herald mid when an objective is contested or you need that prio to make gains elsewhere. Not going to herald mid when everyone is missing and you have no plans post herald.

[@ntkn]

as someone who has played both SC BW, SC2, and LoL i can say that on paper it looks like you can compare the two, but in practice you REALLY cant. There are some obvious similiaries, such as treating minions as your "economy", and you can even deny the enemy their own economy through harassment and etc, but the reality is you have 9 other people in the game to worry about other than yourself. there are more ways to get gold that you cant control. You may have denied your enemy 112 gold through good harassment in lane, but then the enemy mid takes mid tower and now your harassment was completely negated at no fault of your own. There are ALOT of variables to worry about in SC2, but in LoL those variables increase by 9x. In team play you can reduce some variables through communicating with your team to make sure that they dont just do what they want to do, but at the end of the day they can still misplay and ruin a fight, or someone can make a bad call that you wouldnt make/agree with and etc. So league being a 1v1 game matters ALOT. Because you have infinitely more control on what happens in your games compared to league of legends, even in a pro play/team environment. In league, there are simply just far too many variables and scenarios/situations that you can not control and are forced to instead just adapt to. So in practice, you really cant compare SC2 with league as much as people want to.

[@BaneHydra]

I agree with your arguments but I think for those who disagree, you need to do more to establish why Reynor's take on this matters. Even to me, as someone familiar with both genres, it’s not 100% apparent. If you’re up an expansion in Starcraft, you straight up mine from more mineral/vespene nodes than your opponent whereas in League, it’s still the same amount of minions running down both lanes and the same number of jungle creeps. Being ahead economically in SC2 means you scale faster than your opponent in a very direct and tangible way. In LoL, I suppose being ahead allows you more control over neutral objectives and being able to deny your opponents CS, but that’s not the same kind of "being economically ahead" that Reynor was talking about. Again, I think you’re right on this overall, but I would’ve liked to hear a proper explanation on why an SC2 pro's opinion is applicable to LoL in this context, what being economically ahead means in LoL and how inaction can grow economic leads.

[@itachi60001]

i think the argument in this specific example would be that the value of minions on smolder is multiplicative because of stacks, and on other champions the value of gold is higher than the raw value because of how it actually affects the game

[@Jaime_Protein_Cannister]

You are economically ahead , that's how g2 gets gold leads consistently , by ignoring a lot of the aram-objectives in favor of just staying in lane catching side lanes and counter jungling , while the objective is being taken. Because they make that call early , they seem to get a lot of resources efficiently compared to other LEC teams... and they're not necesserily playing winning early game compositions , to be able to have these kinds of gold leads early. But they do by virtue of just being decisive. If you had a team that knows this without g2's ego issues and early game failures , the same patience would have even more positive outcomes. In last couple series , they were 2k-3k ahead by playing the map and kept loosing it by just making fail plays. You're watching the score it's 6-3 , but the team with 3 kills is 2k ahead.

[@itachi60001]

@@Jaime_Protein_Cannister g2 is quite possibly the worst example you can use of this, they have been constantly losing early games this year and they get into horrible positions that they only get out of by skirmishing

[@Jaime_Protein_Cannister]

@@itachi60001 yet they have gold leads thats exactly the point and they do not aram, theyre getting caugh in rotation and fail playing rather than making poor macro decision. It is one of the best examples how a team that does not opt into bad heralds and towers and so on , is being competitive even when failing to get early leads, how much better will it be for a team that has one , fking In starcraft terms they fail micro while having decent macro you wood league scrub

[@itachi60001]

@@Jaime_Protein_Cannister 1. no they dont have gold leads in most of their games, lol 2. nothing to do with macro, they simply skill check their opponents in fights or lec teams simply grossly overextend against them, its not like they are actively avoiding taking objectives like ls argues and just catching waves, and they are almost never in a position where "inaction is action"

[@ryankasch5561]

I think it's very interesting to hear this as an Age of Empires 2 fan, in addition to a league fan, is that in theory it replicates league much more than StarCraft 2. AoE2 has replays and in theory a pro could practice them against another, but with more different civilization matchups than SC2 and much higher variance in maps it generally isn't done. Yes, pros will often wait, which league pros don't do, but not as often as would be always advantageous. Also, specific micro often radically changes a situation's outcome. That and focus being a limited resource due to the amount of units in a game that leads to players often "throwing away" troops. When a game can take over an hour and series are best of sevens for grand finals traditionally, focus can become a deciding factor when both are near exhaustion. This is all to say I would find it interesting what the Hera, the current top AoE2 pro would say, given I know he has played league in the past.

[@KeeperCode]

Haven't played league for a few years now. But I always enjoy listening to LS. Idk why i just do.

[@papoy1962]

Bro guy literally creates drama every single time. Even right now he's creating video because someone didn't agree with his opinion on twitter

[@BasedBrooksy]

In theory Rainer is correct as far as league practice is concerned because more than likely teams scrimmage comps and strategies versus specific, you’re down what are you supposed to do in this moment. I think it would be fairly difficult to do all things considered that’s why you scrimmage/practice as much as you can to try and compensate for that. HOWEVER The coaches have it right too because a lot of league play whether professional or casual stems from emotion and while it is easy for some to be calm and collected on their own, it’s a whole different beast when you have to keep five people calm and collected and think the same way in high pressure scenarios. I think it’s like the situation where the villain makes the hero pick between their saving own (love) interest and the interest/people of everyone else. In this high pressure situation, not everyone is going to make the same choice and I think that’s where majority of mistakes come from. Lastly, It does greatly depend on how well teams are doing. T1 might have been the best team last year and may have made some same previous mistakes years prior but you can also see this year they made more of them and paid by being 4th. Idk if it has to do with coaching per se or more just not being on the same page. Sometimes people grow and think they know a little more and want to contribute differently. I guess in that sense a coach needs to sit them down and understand games intent and the ways they want to win as a whole. At the same time, the best teams seem to barely make these mistakes and it shows because they flow effortlessly from one situation/objective to the next because they already knew what they were going to do or where to move after an event but that is something you can only do when keeping calm heads. So getting back to the Tier 1 turret fiasco, it more or less probably just happened because of anxiety in a high pressure situation of wanting to do something instead of nothing like everyone suggested. It is just kinda odd that this is the thought process but at the same time, you’re not really ever doing nothing in league. Something can be done, but that was DEFINITELY not the thing that NEEDED to be done at that time.

[@thepatrickcrab]

The consensus issue that was brought up where players and coaches don't have a great way to know if a play is actually optimal can be mitigated by having a proper practice tool and people willing to use it to put in the repetitions. By taking the same scenario and attempting it repeatedly with differing approaches you slowly build up an understanding of what works in given situations. The issue in League is that, due to a lack of a scenario loading feature, these repetitions cannot be done in rapid secession, but rather happen randomly throughout scrims or matches. This means that repetitions of any given scenario are more spread apart, and happen less frequently. Because of the reduced and dispersed rate of exposure, the understanding cannot grow as quickly to gain mastery in these given areas. This problem is then exacerbated by the fact that League is a game of frequent updates, tweaking creatures, items, and/or champions alike can cause changes to what an optimal macro play. This means that there is a time limit on finding "optimal" play before that optimal changes. This doesn't mean that all previous knowledge is useless, but it does require constant refreshing to stay on top of "optimal", more so that would be required in an athletic sport where rule changes are few and far between.

[@dew8178]

So you're saying the game changes too fast for the player to figure out what is optimal. That is odd because back when SC2 was not dead, there were weeks when they would get a game-altering patch once per day. And yes, a pro player would have to play an online cub for money/WCS points on one patch, wake up, re-learn the game for another tournament the next day, then go back to sleep and do it all again. The only difference is one player had to do it, not five. But also, LOL does have to deal with 8-12 different maps where the patch affects differently and plays multiple tournaments per week. When a LOL pro player is not in World/MSI, they play at most 1 best of three or a best of five a week. It's not the pace of the patch that is the problem. Because patches have come out MUCH FASTER for other games. The only two problems I could see are bad / not intelligent devs not being able to provide resources that were placed in games 10 years ago and coaches not being skilled enough to find a way around bad devs' failures. Then you brought up athletic sports. Do me a favor and look up how often freestyle wrestling changes. There is not many opportunities or places to practice that sport yet there was a year where they had 14 vastly different rule sets. For those that don't remember, in one year, it went from 2 two minutes different periods with 1 overtime period where you won each period individually to just 2 periods with no overtime and scores carried over. WITH A LOT OF CHANGES in between. So no even some sports have changes faster. So, like I said above, there are only three people to blame for not knowing what is optimal. The devs for being not skilled enough to provide the tools that other games have had for ten years. and the players and coaches for not finding out a workaround.

[@thepatrickcrab]

​@@dew8178 Your main point is exactly the same as mine: League of Legends is lacking in the ability for players to practice exact scenarios repeatedly (go re-read the first sentence of my comment). This makes it more difficult for them to work out the optimal solution for a given scenario, and almost impossible to get a good number of repetitions to really drill the optimal solution into their brains. We have both established, the lack of tooling or teams workaround for this training deficit is the main issue. However, you seem to take issue with my statement that the evolving state of League makes this situation even more difficult, and bring up meaningless examples in an attempt to prove this point. The fact that League practice is lacking means that the development of well drilled decision making skills is slower than it could be, and by the time it is figured out it may have changed. You cherry pick a sport that had a rapid set of changes, and a game with the same. These are irrelevant to the point being made. Most mainstream sports do not have any rule changes mid season, and occasionally have some changes between seasons. A soccer player needs to adapt to the changing tactics and strategies employed by his team and others. A League player, or a SC2 player, or a freestyle wrestler in the cherry-picked time period you mentioned also needs to adapt to changing tactics and strategies, but also needs to adapt to the changing rule set. This later adaptation here (something that most sports don't need to worry about, since their rule-sets are mostly static) is more difficult in League of Legends than it would be in SC2, or Wrestling because unlike League of Legends, the latter of this grouping have a strong ability to repeatedly practice exact situations. League players lack state-specific repetitions that SC2 players, soccer players, or wrestlers can get in their own discipline.

[@ЮрийКривошея]

Sorry. Tell me what change in last 2 years of league, as expample, that 50\50-flip play from this video whould be ok? It's just a fundamental macro mistakes that not ok unless u'r reginald in early era of the game. If it was some crazy fight where a player could not predict an angle of calista jump - i can get it, the got no tools to practice such scenario. But its a basic macro mistake that just should not be done by pros in 2024. Dont make flip mooves with luck of information when u ahead with scaling comp. Should be basics for pro team.

[@MatyasFrank-bf7cv]

League players dont lay back and farm, because in this game there is something called lane priority and tempo. Ever since moscow 5 it is one of the base principles governing the game. This particular case, yes it was a bad call to 5v5 at mid, they should have establish side pressure and then herald (in other words use tempo, and side lane prio) do it this way and its the correct play. Sitting back and not using tempo gives enemy team time to catch up or make plays. Also it is well established irl or in game development, that the farther your retreat point (and vision) is, the riskier to pressure your opponent. Mid turret is worth the most, because you can flank both top or bottom due to its position, and in case a nexus rush mid is always the shortest route. Bad take LS... again. Stop these controversal takes, and riding the wave if one of them turns out to be correct, or claiming you were the first to notice. If it wasn't correct then stop changing your narrative.

[@lcmbeatdrop]

nice comment

[@soufiene5195]

insightful comment

[@2115-l9o]

did you watch the video? Like, at all?

[@JoeTaber]

League being unable to replay scenarios for practice is like not being able to practice puzzles in chess. This game's theorycraft is the dark ages because of this.

[@ЮрийКривошея]

Well. U dont need practice puzzles in chess to see that a2-a3 is a bad open. Noone saying that league don't need better practice tools. But pros are doing unreasonably many soloq mistakes, that usually driven by the pure desire for action.

[@randokaratajev2617]

League is a game of variables, rng and skill combined. Theres no one right answer to every scenario.

[@Fierlyt]

At the open of the video I had questions about context, because what you get with tier 1 mid tower is more than just 112g. After getting the context, the question makes more sense... Especially because they did not, in fact, get that 112g. Hindsight is often more clear than foresight, so I imagine the answer is something along the lines of "because we can try" and not "because it was right/important". The idea that you just need to do nothing feels wrong in league because it's a race to obtain as much gold as you can before your opponents to get stronger items so you are advantaged in the fight. I don't really question why they attempted to take tier 1 mid, but I really have no idea how they messed up their coordination and positioning so badly that the back line was easily collapsed on from lane. I look at that fight and just have so many questions for the Zyra positioning and pathing choices with known enemy positions. Why was she up with Jax and not down with Smolder and MF? That champ is the peel in this scenario and Jax is the flank, she doesn't need to be covering Jax. The whole set up collapsed because of that positioning from what I know of the champions involved... And I guess it also should be said that MF and Smolder are playing REALLY confident for not having any front line in the face of what is basically a 3v2 as Taliyah was cutting off Zyra and Jax 1v2, so maybe Zyra was trying to peel away from the play and it's on Smolder and MF that they stayed too long for a failed play. I don't question why they tried for tier 1 mid, because of course you try at some point, I question why they over commit when the play didn't work. They did nothing at the wrong time, "We're here now, we don't need to do anything because we're making a play, oh, now we're being collapsed on." instead of "Ok, we tried herald mid and that didn't work, regroup and we try something else" after the herald ran around Taliyah wall.

[@jkakokje3710]

I think the main difference when comparing League practice to Starcraft practice is the importance of micro vs macro (or at least the perceived importance). The emphasis seems to be in Starcraft, given an equal level of macro, the person with better micro wins whereas in League, given an equal level of micro, the team with better macro wins. That's why a lot of practice in Star is to know what the best decisions to make in each corcumstances are and training macro level decision making, whereas in League a lot more emphasis is put on laning (although there is some level of macro decisions in laning) and not on practicing team-wide strategy. Also, in Starcraft you know your own strengths and weaknesses and all ylur own actions, whereas in League, you have to effectively communicate that info among 5 players and have somebody call the shots, which is a lot harder to coordinate (and also depending on the team, it might be hard to argue against a call for various reasons even if a player knows that the decision is terrible)

[@kaichisendou]

Please give us more of these discussions with more StarCraft players (aka free thinkers), the game needs it.

[@mixalis295]

Bro the ending made me die laughing

[@doesntmatter1999]

I agree with reynor 100%. One of the best examples is the "T1 Baron" when the current T1 lineup always manages do insane plays whenever their opponents try to take that purple worm. It made me feel like you shouldn't even try to take the baron when 4-5 T1 members are still alive and it's like they practice these situations with chronobreak.

[@derealiiqwq2152]

this was a great convo. also mid t1 is good this game bc it opens up the map, if y'all weren't aware.

[@boyonthephone4331]

Loved the discussion, awesome video LS!

[@fuzzwobble]

The downside of taking mid tier 1 early is it allows the enemy to pull their farming in mid back and safe farm more. It forces mid to roam more or be at the mercy of dangerous ganking.

[@EdGeLV]

The juice is in Waldo saying at the start that it's a stress/team decision, the rest is just some interesting discussion

[@D_scxnnect]

nice to have a SC2 view on things, hard to compare a sort of live chess puzzle/management game (SC2) where you can play scenarios multiple times and then league where everything can evolve/devolve after X amount of time - im being extremely broad to keep the comment smaller. for league coaching, its one thing to repeat videos and say "we should do X here" and another thing to obtain muscle memory and instinctive champ piloting. SC2 is a template reactive building game at it's core with player management on top and league is a reactive situation-based scaling game where there are 10 templates being used and unfathomable human error potentials end of the day, it's 5 humans playing, they will make mistakes like all of us, despite experience.

[@albinnordstrom2641]

One way to think of this is a perhaps more reflective way for players is to compare it to TFT, let's say you're in the lead with high health (80+) at around stage 4-1, and you just lost your winstreak. But you have great economy, you're getting your interest and you're moving towards your lvl 9, that you're guaranteed to hit with your high HP and maxed out interest each turn. Just because you lost your winstreak, does not mean you need to panic roll at level 8, your comp is already stable enough that you can greed and just move to lvl 9 and either slow roll or full roll down at lvl 9 in order to top the lobby.

[@CommonMrB]

While I understand trying to compare these two games but my immediate thought when recreating scenarios is that’s couldn’t they practice a dragon fight with challenger teams? Similar to when I played hockey, we practiced live scenarios and played them out naturally. So that the offensive side could be creative to look for ways to score. While the defense stick to a set system so that they can work on coverage. I guess you’d still need a system that could manually create this.. which I feel like should be mandatory for each team to have.

[@nathandavis5399]

one of the best ls videos I have seen in a while

[@sS0ulSs]

There are just too many variables in a game like League SC has 3 Races League has over 100 champions The amount of variable scenarios is impossible to practice Plus the human variables of 5 players on each team

[@titon7608]

People are upset because they saw a guide video 3 years ago telling them the opposite. I did too, but im here to listen and see if the information provided changes my mind.

[@justifiable]

Riot's lack of investment in meaningful practice tools has crippled the game at a high level.

[@ConlanHale]

it doesn't take a practice tool to dig into theory, people just don't do it or they get 0-2 levels deep on reasoning max. the game is too complex to sit on the surface level and think you are hot shit.

[@poom323]

I feel like it's kinda like "if you play top lane and not getting bore, there is something wrong"

[@SoloAdvocate]

You don't need to be able to "resume from replays" or have that functionality in order to receive those benefits of running through previous games. At every level of physical sports they are not recreating the physical conditions to learn from them. You can accomplish the same thing by simply reviewing the "film" and using something as simple as a whiteboard to work out what you should have done. Even the lowest levels of organized sports can accomplish this, even small town High School Football teams. Like in this example they are able to look at the current specific instance in question and say assuredly "This is what they should have done..."

[@ASSASSIN79100]

2:27 This is the main issue with the tweet that LS made.

[@iRiDiKi]

League is gone man, people can't engage in discussion and haven't been able to for years and that's part of why no one practices properly or views ranked as practice or anything basic from the old RTS days like that. Worse yet, your casual fan and player also get too emotionally charged and have too much of a voice. Swap games before this game becomes so dead that it's too late because you lost an audience. Gonna take on an edit here: I love that everyone is treating my comment as if I am saying that League is dying (it is). No, I am saying that I want LS to go into a game where his talent for insight and knowledge will genuinely flourish. League is basically anti-intellectual - no one gives a fuck that Riot sacrifice their top end for the sake of casuals and that is a problem - no one cares to ACTUALLY discuss things and approach the game in a healthy and fulfilling way and that's a problem...

[@itsgonnabeokay9341]

League is dying bla bla I have been hearing this since season 10

[@vexacion9735]

​@@itsgonnabeokay9341competitive league (referring to solo queue) is certainly dying in the west at least. The ranked population is way down compared to season 11 (due to split changes) and the game is getting dumbed down with every season to cater to casual players.

[@sundanser]

ls will be fine if this happens (probably wont btw). his core audience watches him for him anyway, not for the game.

[@aphelios7852]

Same shi been said 5 years ago And league iss till growing

[@wewillrockyou1986]

​@@itsgonnabeokay9341League has been dying since S3 lol

[@heldervasconcelos1045]

4:50 Reven taking in consideration player pov and pressure its so cool man. pro coach. LS could phrase things with more empathy.

[@coolbrotherf127]

So many players just don't understand the way tempo and pressure should be used and then force "good plays" because they think it'll magically bring them back into the game. Sure, playing from behind is though, but the enemy team can't be everywhere on the map instantly so there's almost always a counter play option to take what they aren't defending at the moment. Don't break down the wall, make the small holes in the wall bigger, and see if it can hold together.

[@absenttk4213]

As a recent (past couple years) watcher of pro SC and SC2, this is a great example of what I feel Pro LoL never gave me. In SC there are real, tangible reasons for doing something that all pros can articulate, whereas I’ve always felt like a lot of pro LoL players sound more like they’re acting on sense or superstition.

[@mambocomet]

I’ve had friends grind to lvl 6 with 1 item to do 1v1 testing with different rune pages. Chrono function would be so amazing for players to improve

[@zyadalalgui2040]

great video ! love the productive discussion.

[@Rags_222]

U should talk with grubby. Him having played wc3 and dota 2 professionally hebhas a very balanced opinion on translating rts skills to mobas

[@sweetpvke_]

Things i learned with Ls: 1 - it's bad to take mid tier 1 or smth,i didn't watch the video 2 - as a latina,you don't need to cross the border to be mocked for not speaking english as you primary language 3 - Rito doesn't care about having a homage to a r4c1st person in the form of a easter egg in their game

[@oliver1784]

ls I love u so much keep doing what ur doing. Only gripe I have which I personally do as well is that you dont really let people speak freely when you are constantly trying to jump into the convo. Like I said, I completely get it but I thought to say since its what I thought edit: nvm you do let others speak, such a great video! ❤

[@cidlunius1076]

What I heard for 3 minutes was: "We need to steal the ability to hop into a replay and practice a scenario, like SC2, Tekken 8, SF6 (soon)"

[@justincain2702]

Doing nothing is a problem in league because of scaling champs and the item cap. You don't want the game to go on so long that you are no longer able to be stronger than your opponent.

[@CoconutPipeSmoker]

LS's points are valid to an extent. However, I personally believe that a Mid Tier 1 turret is worth more than 112 gold, primarily because the level of map control gained by opening the mid lane is significantly more valuable. Once the Tier 1 mid turret is down, it exposes the enemy's jungle, creating more opportunities for ganking and counter-jungling. Additionally, it grants greater control over both the Baron and Dragon pits. While I agree with LS's comment that 100 Thieves should be prioritizing other objectives or win conditions, it's all situational. I would also argue that the pressure exerted through the mid lane provides a substantial strategic advantage.

[@joetri10]

As a jungler, Taking mid turret takes away most objective control due to warding. It just really opens the map up. I mean funny enough i wrote this before even watching the video beyond the tweet, and the first comment was about jungle rotations lol. Enough said yeh. On another point. You have the innate ability to get a lot of heat on you for 1 single twitter post, because people just like to hate. What you've found and done here though if you're able to turn a hot topic into a really really great discussion video. You should repeat this format xD

[@gytis6297]

I feel like the biggest problem is that pro teams act/react instinctively rather than critically and cohesively when facing certain situations and it can be a double-edged sword (knowing what to do instinctively is good, but you also need to know what's best at least in theory). It's like in poker, while instincts are important to a certain point, knowing GTO improves your game by a ton

[@lfishl22]

4:10 How the hell would you think the economy dynamics are the same in RTS and MOBA??

[@HienLeGia]

This making it on the Main Channel means it's CRITICAL for ANY potential Pro prospects in the future. Sadly, they will never try to listen to logic and reason, since funny man with skincare routine and not being Challenger year-round hurts their closeted world views. The Scene does not deserve this, and you don't have to witness this for so long....

[@synchronium24]

Salmon sperm or bust!

[@TheShadowBiszu]

If someone can help me understand or check with me if I understood correctly. What LS is saying, taking mid turrets in general is not as beneficial as people think because it doesn't open any specific measurable things besides giving you a little bit of gold. Is that correct? Because in my mind it does open up potential possibilities like engages, catching people on rotation etc. It open us space that you can work with in theory. Except in practise in that example of game state you cant really do much if there tower is there or not. Is that correct?

[@ЮрийКривошея]

Nah. He is saying, that it is not beneficial enoth to risk a 50\50 play, when u got no info on 2 of 5 enemy players and u'r ahead with better scaling late. If mid turret free or low risk - it's always good. In scenario from this match - it's a non-pro mistake from pro team. It's like u'r araming with 6\0 adc versus hook champ and u risk position yourself ahead of a team just to hit one more auto. One free auto always good, but in this scenario the risk is too hight for the benefit u get. Same happend in the game they talk about, but on macro level.

[@MrJuitman]

Message to LS: I honestly suffer from the same situations as you do of "people don't think clearly about intents, and just blindly follow status quo when in doubt instead of re-evaluating their situation" which results in a lot of the same kind of bs that you've clearly had to deal with in your however-many-years of being a public face sharing your opinions. The literal problem is that people just don't know how to navigate critical thought and your approach of outlining the problem to encourage people to think about the situation just falls on deaf ears and you're just interpreted instead as some grinch that's doomsaying what everyone else is doing. When in actual fact you're trying to improve the collective wisdom of the crowd. Whilst you are not wrong and I like your authentic, critical nature, people still be people and honestly there's only 2 options: * Accept that in your current communcation format, most people will simply see you as problematic even if your style is aimed at encouraging critical thought, and start shifting towards a suggestive format. For example, suggest concrete actions other than taking mid tier 1, instead of criticizing the flawed mentality of wanting to take tier 1 to begin with (which I agree is the bigger issue here but people don't fucking care). * Accept that you'll be seen as a grinch, but hope that enough people see through your otherwise combative facade to understand the deeper ideas you're trying to communicate. Risky business here though, as you might lose an audience before you get the chance to change people's minds, but maybe that's what you want, weeding out the braindead. I just hope that people do see the real ideas behind your words and that the crowd doesn't villainize your version of criticism into obscurity.

[@Thejollyoldbman]

I'd love to see you and caedrel talk about this cus I swear he LOVES the herald for outer mid turret is both sides are already down.

[@Thejollyoldbman]

okay scrap this, you explain in first 30 secS lol

[@Jaime_Protein_Cannister]

I think it's a cop-out argument , "we can't do this , because we can't help ourselves to run it down". This is not a good agrument as to why it's not being looked at in detail. A lot of the time you don't even have to play out specific thing 100's of times , only get a general feel and if you are inteligent enuf , you can make very quick adjustments. Case and point in Starcraft it takes 3 drones to destroy a cannon before it builds , it's easy to infer that if cannon is 25% complete before you find it , you'll need 4 drones to demolish it. If you see 2 cannons , simple math would state that you need 6. All you do then in practice is to learn how to geometrically best defend yourself and you practice control. People would practice placement , how to "obstruct" and how to split your resources , to minimize loss of mining time etc. If your argument is you can't do this because "your bot lane is running it down and solo looses the game", you probably aren't in a good headspace to begin with , you'd have starcraft pros giving up left right and centre after seeing first sign of a cannon rush , if they had that mentality. There's many Kings in League , but not a single Emperor even after so many years.

[@TheRealGuSty]

I think it's a bit weird to infuse SC2 (or any RTS tbh) over LoL examples. Like, if you get ahead in SC2, you don't really get more ahead, you try to kill your opponent. Sure, if you get ahead early, you may "scale" for a short bit to get to your spikes, but since every race "scales" roughly equally (balance discussion etcetc, you get the idea), you really don't want your opponent to be let back into the game. This is different in LoL since you pick champions with limited/different abilities/scaling. It's also worth noting SC2 (and most RTS's) are much faster than LoL. I'm not sure why Reynor is so receptive to this idea of "getting more ahead", when neither he or any top SC2 player actually plays like that outside of very specific instances (maybe you could argue Maru TvZ/T?). Again, it's important to remember that RTS "scaling" is non-linear, and you cannot scale in perpetuity. Your race is either just stronger late game (arguably balance issue, nuanced topic), or you want to win the game as soon as possible after getting ahead since your opponent will only be catching up after a certain point; you're not getting more ahead.

[@intifadayuri]

The main reason we rarely see innovation in League is because of the monopolization of the esports scene. Historically has been underdogs the ones to bring up innovation (in order to defeat already established and dominant players), but with the current formation of the scene it is nearly impossible to sign up to a random tournament and try new stuff

[@TashiPM]

I wish league had the ability to resume from a saved game - it would make solving these disagreements about correct play so much easier.

[@jrsmiththegoat3012]

so good to see my goat back

[@dellikakechi5665]

LS you give too much ground in these discussions recently... Reven flipped the argument from *whether* it's *correct* to take mid tier 1, to *why* teams *do* take mid tier 1. When he's talking about emotions and environment, he is implying that *because* these conditions *exist* for the players, it is not *correct* for them to do nothing / scale, without stating it as an argument. It's equivocation. i.e. "they're not robots"

[@niccades2844]

you have the combover of a midlaner and i think that says more than your opinion on this, in fact I think you are one of the only midlaners I've heard complain about having lane opened up? is babysitting a lane better than rotating for objectives? is a mid push not where most games end? are you playing smolder and flaming folks lmao? sorry for asking the real questions

[@sint3640]

So in a nutshell: Rather than having a team-lead like in most professional games and sports, league pro teams RANDOMLY throw buzz-words at eachothers waiting on anybody to react? Sounds like a great concept. I´d like to imagine basketball pro matches (where nobody as good as the top 10 who solo win a lot of games and basically play solo) where every player just does something random. One is in defense while his team is in offense. One just goes "throw the ball" "throw the ball" "player 14 is isolated" "pass the ball". Another just decides to attempt a throw from their side of the field, while it it´s a 0:0 and the match just started. Would love to see that.

[@nerve5003]

What I think is even more interesting is that DOTA 2 pros often employ the “do nothing to get ahead” strategy because of how farming the jungle works. Often if players like Yatoro lose lanes they just afk farm the jungle and abandon the lane to try to remain relevant in the mid-late game.

[@SuperRedhawk97]

Was not expecting my goat reynor to show up but I am happy

[@yoU0Turn]

After the war, everybody is a general. lose mid and you lose vision, mid safety, even roams get slower for mid laner. if mid farms under turret and wants roam(drake etc); you are faster if you stand on tier 1. mid is the most important turret

[@Frstypwngaming]

Mid-game oriented team comps that have good potential for poke like Jayce Nidalee Corki/Zeri Ziggs Rell/Leona/Naut and first mid tower becomes a bit more of a priority for avenues of harass/poke to abuse your early/mid game spike