LS | TSM SPICA JUNGLE Analysis | Jungle Pathing, Decision Making, and Macro of Junglers

[@kinshred1222]

It's incredible that Bjergsen retires after he finally has a good jungler

[@josephmckenney-barschall864]

Given what I have heard about how TSM liked to give their junglers extremely rigid flowcharts with no room for adaptation, it is possible that Bjerg becoming a coach is what allows Spica to do these things.

[@simonbanic5749]

Yeah i would've loved to see him not react to more clutch ults from Spica and free baron during worlds, I miss him too.

[@Pourkhoa]

Reggi too toxic

[@iwantlee9510]

Bjerg leaving TSM was the best decision of his career. TSM will never succeed as long as Regi is in charge.

[@kylekoenen8237]

@@iwantlee9510 did he leave? I thought he became part owner/coach staff?

[@The_Lightless]

It’s so sad watching this. Spica literally just can’t do anything besides watch as everything around him just crumbles and falls. Get this man some actual laners man please

[@ognf78]

He didn’t do a single gank except the bot one. While he could’ve dove Sylas 100 times in a row since Sylas is constantly low vs lb

[@ognf78]

I mean there was not much he could’ve done playing lee, but at least try smth with such an early comp, or dive bot with kalista

[@flailofthelord]

it was the draft, not his teammates, listen to what LS is showing you. Quit badmouthing players when you don't seem to understand anything about what's going on in the game.

[@runescapegamer7025]

@@ognf78 we are gonna assume enemy doesnt have alistar to back sylas up or the jungler? you cant just dive with no vision

[@ognf78]

@@runescapegamer7025 ure playing lb with full prio and kalista adc vs ez ? So you also have prio bot. So u can have the vision

[@MEGARAYMANable]

So many people blaming spica for this game when Huni is a literal coin flip every game

[@islandKingT]

it was already lost when it wasn't lane lee sin, sadge. Xin Zhao is just too busted in 2 v 2, spica can't do much

[@thundersharkpanda]

huni placed his first ward on the lane bush to go aggro when he is supposed play weak side. Pretty much gave away the game three minutes in lmaooo

[@SAINT_SPYRO]

@@thundersharkpanda I m suprised almost noone talk about that. Tell em.

[@MrPuertillo]

That's a lie. The games they've lost so far this split. POE Lucian x2 EG team got giga gapped everywhere including Spica This game, team got gapped. There was nobody with a decent champion doing anything for TSM. Every game POE doesn't roam, plays like Froggen and the enemy midlaner roams. SA is more of a coinflip but sure let's blame Huni.

[@zayb12036]

@@MrPuertillo It's literally a draft diff. Sure the team got gapped, but lee just seems so shit in the jungle. Don't get me wrong I know very little, but from what I've watched from costreamers like LS, DL, Sneaky and Meteos. I can tell that lee is just a better laner than a jungler. It feels like he can't really do anything. He as LS said in this game was so stunted.

[@haugi357]

This is one of the videos where I always think how can people be so against LSs views sometimes? Everything he complained about in the video he clearly explained why AND gave an alternative, better play. This is how analysis should always be, yet for some reason the whole „LS never explains why, never admits wrong and is stubborn af“ narrative continues

[@TheJtorres182]

To be fair i've seen many times where he doesn't explain fully or he just argues for several minutes at a time, maybe its just me but since Caedral called him out i feel he's doing excellent analysis. One of the things though that hasn't changed is how much you kinda have to listen to him several times to understand some concepts he's saying, like the "sinning" thing.

[@TYFLOL]

@@TheJtorres182 Makes sense, he streams everyday so I think he would go even more nuts if he has to explain the concepts he has uses every time he uses them haha

[@zelder1371]

Because most LS haters only watch clips that get recommended to them on yt

[@lordpaulphilippfernandez9904]

I think it's because on some videos, he complains about some things yet doesn't give any explanation why, doesn't acknowledge the good things that a player does, and even judges some actions that a player did as wrong when it is actually right.

[@Aseth2802]

Someone may dislike simply because of him, the way he react and comment, regardless of what he say. From there, haters will answer anything just to comfort themselves. We see it all the time, in every possible discussions: -Person A give his opinion about something -Person B argue that no, then proceed to say the same things with different words and adding something meaningless Reason behind this situation is simply that person B dislike person A and people like to have the last word… This kind of content video comes with double the haters; fan of the game, fan of the players he review. He could say anything, there will always be people arguing because of that.

[@davidsimon3078]

Tbh. Kinda sad TSM actually manages to develop a good jngler for once (or at least one who had positive impact, to not say the others were bad) but then their laners are bad/mediocre

[@ognf78]

Kekw

[@firelaf1284]

Spica's proview is actually insane. He's always at the right place. Too bad it's Lee. After that second dragon he was literally irrelevant the whole game and so was every other champ in TSM's draft. Huni and Lost need to be replaced for next season or Spica just needs to find a better team to be on. I feel so bad for him.

[@raphaelcheng2254]

The title: SPICA JUNGLE Analysis, Jungle Pathing, Decision Making, and Macro of Junglers The video: TSM Draft Dystopias

[@Asometric]

I love this kind of content because it's not just LS malding (which is enjoyable dont get me wrong), but he also explains his thought process for everything.

[@Goondius]

Really liked this video. explaining the little details and the thought process behind some evaluations.

[@LeaguePlayerClips]

faker would have f key already xD

[@shallowabyss515]

There is a clip from years ago of faker spamming the hell out of fkeys while playing karthus

[@StormBroDK]

@@shallowabyss515 its not just that clip

[@shallowabyss515]

@@StormBroDK ofc not, but that clip is one of the earliest examples of a top tier pro using f keys in stage play

[@keijhannajhiek1907]

I miss LS casting in LCK.

[@BillGrantOreta]

12:50 "Arcane Shift that's not crownie" HAHAHAHAHA

[@WatchThatKilcam15]

"huni pushing back like hes tryna give birth in top lane" said with a straight face is what got me

[@theoutsiderow1189]

Loved this video, if you can do more super explanation heavy vids I’d love it this was so informative

[@archerist_]

5:30 gods just dont want spica to win something i swear

[@charlett3736]

ya, Ezreal survives with 7 hp, ya hate to see it. one auto from Lost would've done it but no, but he targets the tank and and he kills a minion instead

[@Poptropica07]

@@charlett3736 I mean if ez dies there all 3 of DIG dies with a huge wave crash since XZ lived on triumph

[@skvichi9364]

The issue is that was rather miscalculation by spica than being unlucky even i fucking knew that he doesnt have damage to kill him he had to auto once more after e but Alistar w was coming up so he cant and he had to kick

[@skvichi9364]

Also the entire 3v3 was played poorly by both sides especially lost

[@happens2]

Really good video showcasing what good pathing and bad teamcomps are defenitly will help me improve as a player

[@dracoknight9066]

5:43 a huge misplay here, he had w+flash to kill ez (no e) there, which lets him triumph and possibly get ali too.

[@ajeb7207]

2:34 can naut remove the shield from the crab by just hitting it?

[@mr.jimmyeq5612]

yes

[@Adaliss]

Love this part of ur content thank u so much for this 💕💕

[@DillonChichester]

Personally, I would’ve loved a version of this video that was double the length or longer, in which you paused the game in order to to explain certain things, such as pulling up a calculator when you said to do so, and such. Maybe even going into the draft and gameplay for each team from the beginning. It felt like you were often forced off of certain topics because of the speed of events, and you even mentioned it at one point, that you couldn’t talk fast enough some times. Obviously, you as the content creator have control, and so I have no idea if you don’t like making those kinds of videos, or if you merely don’t have the schedule for it, but I think it would’ve help you solidify your points more clearly instead of attempting to shove it all in to a live commentary.

[@DonkeyMcMuffin]

But what stops you from doing it yourself? He tells you what you need to calculate, i.e. what Gnar gets bot [14:00] and specifically what to consider, e.g. the free waves. Gnar starts pushing at [13:22] and from that point to [14:05] or so when Gnar rotates to the fight, you see he manages to clear 3 waves. Since the third wave he cleared had 7 dots on the map, we know it's a cannon and since the game is past 15min, a cannon spawns every 2nd wave, hence the first wave Gnar cleared had a cannon. Since the game is also past 17min, we know that cannon gives full gold (90). In terms of XP, a wave (excluding cannons) is worth 270XP (3 melee * 60 [180] + 3 Casters * 30 [90]). Each cannon is worth 90XP and we can assume Gnar managed to get two, judging by the above paragraph. Thus, three waves and two cannons makes Gnar gain roughly 270*3 + 90 + 90 (or 990) XP. Gnar is LVL12, meaning he needs 1380XP to get to LVL13, a fairly big spike for the second max-rank spell, so getting those waves gets him almost all the way to 13, missing only 390XP. In terms of Gold, each wave is worth 105G, excluding cannons. (3 melee * 21G [63] + 3 casters * 14G [42]) Each cannon is also worth 90G since the game is past 17min, so for the three waves and two cannons, Gnar gets himself 105 * 3 + 90 + 90 (or 495G) assuming perfect CS (we can assume he knows how to last-hit when uncontested.) It doesn't seem like a ton of gold, but the XP gains are huge and you also need to consider that both TSM and DIG are doing absolutely nothing except a tiny bit of skirmishing top anyway (they're trading but neither team is getting any gold + xp from it aside from Lee clearing the camp). So in other words, Gnar is gaining 500G that the enemy team isn't gaining, and will hit an item spike 400-500G faster than someone else on DIG's team. Not hard to calculate by any means. And not knowing the exact numbers also shouldn't be an excuse for not doing it yourself when the Wiki exists.

[@ericbenaim4297]

so much information to learn wow, what a video man

[@jackspinner4727]

Like he’s trying to give birth hahahah

[@noahmclean3927]

Not to sound all mushy and stuff but Ive been playin league for a good 6 or so years now and Im finally knocking on the doors of diamond! If it wasnt for some of these videos LS I seriously think Id be a hard stuck gold with the terrible Macro plays. Love these videos so much, keep on keepin on my man

[@Mesterjakel7]

They flex a Lee Sinner pick, to get Gnar vs Renekton, against a Sylas.... nuf said

[@productionleandre8670]

Amazing content! Plenty of details and good play by play : D I love this!!!

[@Baby_Foxx]

this video made me check how when spica's contract expires, he's still got another year after this split

[@Shingeki__]

No one: Legit no one at all: LS, Commentators and the whole fucking World: WIND BECOMES LIGHTNING!!!!!!!!!!

[@bonkeykong1487]

thats what theyre supposed to fucking do???

[@foolwhodreams]

Love the vids

[@swl704]

16:30 “OH MY GOD” lmao sounded like Jim Carey

[@puig031]

The video description is off it should be LCS not LEC.

[@NatoSan]

Why doenst riot implement uncapped Pings in pro play?

[@frucks183]

Great video LS and tuv

[@nelocast190]

at 5:20 spica and swordart hitting their q's on ez and ez still manage to cast his e is so unlucky

[@dariyanl]

Can you make same thing but for midlane? I feel like there's so much things happening on midlane and no one gives enough credit to midlane. I mean it's sometimes just afk farming but yeah. I really liked this video for jungle gameplay! It was really educative

[@princeofgreece9054]

No one gives enough credit to midlane...... the players considered best in the world are almost all mid laners. If anything midlane is given too much credit.

[@BotlaneCEO]

Free vod review for tsm pog

[@puppetmaskerr]

4:13 should have e'd onto the minion to wind onto lightning onto huni for the kill instead goes for lee sin and gets neither of them.

[@thegodamnpope6340]

Did this man say "Zug Zug"? My Orc Warlock took this personally

[@Taylor-bw4zg]

Also maybe dumb but is it ever worth it to have bot lane come up for rift herald??

[@Welari12]

Yes. Especially if they have already dropped the early (less resistance) plates bot and have early plates to grab top. At which point them going top let's top go bot (potentially with it bringing Herald to do true damage to the tankier last plates) and also let's them leverage a duo lane to get the early plates top. TLDR: bot should go to Herald when they can gain resources top irrespective of if they get Herald.

[@jdeleongwhs1]

I needed this

[@raderuu]

really waiting for you to upload this because i missed your stream. i hope you could do Inspired next because you have been praising him for a while

[@nicoshorack4708]

I just dont really get the leblanc into sylas pick. Like even swapping lee mid would be better no?

[@danaildoganov]

Meanwhile blaber flashing for crab

[@quittingcreativity]

When did Spica say his laners can't lane?

[@bockist]

Watch the video, you will find your answer

[@quittingcreativity]

@@bockist I did? He said in TSM legends, there's a lot of episodes

[@Heytsch5050]

I feel/heard the rage on your desk while casting.

[@Kongaii]

wow this video made me miss LS casting LCK

[@StocksNShares]

Why does everyone hate on taking inhibitor for pressure. Yes it gives them a little extra gold and xp, but it means that someone has to sit in that lane until it respawn, and if you dont do this, the size of the wave gets big and, well, you saw the outcome this game of that. Makes the team play 4v5 as 1 is always in the lane clearing minions. That pressure allows you to take 1 side or both sides of the enemies jungle camps. So the extra xp and gold that is given by wave, is given back in camps. Then you just have a 4v5 for that time. So any fight is won. Objective and vision control becomes easy. One exception, low elo. As the pressure given will not be used to take camps and get vision and objectives. So with the randomness of low elo. Its potentially bad to take. But i feel in pro game play, people only look at what extras it gives, and not what the pressure is allow them to get and deny from the enemy as it makes the game a 4v5. Soaking up xp and gold on 1 guy is great, but if your other 4 cant do anything because of that, 4 people being starved for one getting a little extra, is worth in my eyes. I want to hear LS's thoughts on this honestly. As i do not feel the thought of jungle camps being taken away with the pressure from inhibitor is even taken into account when he says this, and the control over how the game is played is also under-rated. I agree with him on the baron call though. Dragons are under-rated at the moment. And much easier to take as does less damage to you, so if you fight, your not at as much of a disadvantage than at baron. Giving the chance of a baron steal with Spica, is the only way to let TSM back into the game.

[@thekilla1234]

It's not a black/white "always take inhib" or "never take inhib". It depends on objective timers, mostly the dragon spawn timer. You can do everything you said in your comment with the inhib alive at the same time as denying exp. The thing that ends pro games is soul/elder. Dig could leave the inhib up and set up the wave to slow push to their side of the map. They will miss some of this gold/exp, but since it is slow pushing to their side of the map the wave will eventually get so large that not many more of Digs minions will die, so they lose way less than TSM. While this wave is slow pushing to Dig, they can clear the enemy jungle like you said, denying TSM not only the top wave but also the jungle. TSM cannot get the pushing wave because they will be overextended and will be killed because Dig has no reason to be near dragon since it is not up yet so the jungler can hover this wave while they are clearing the jungle preventing TSM from being able to get anything from both the jungle and the top wave. Eventually, you will have 3 waves or so of minions on your side of the map, which are minions that TSM never got. You can clear this wave and start slow pushing a large wave back at them. At this point, the dragon will be spawning and you have a large wave pushing to their exposed inhib. Now TSM can't really go for that wave because if they do they give up soul/elder control which is a game ending objective, so not only did you deny them all the minions that were killed while it pushed to your side of the map, they are losing the large minion wave that is heading back. This makes them weaker for the dragon fight. If you are smart about how you control the wave, you can always have it pushing back to the enemy when dragon is spawning. Taking the inhib removes this control from the game. If dragon was up in 30 seconds or so then taking the inhib is much better because the pressure helps with the dragon fight. But the dragon was up in 2 minutes, which is not quite long enough but it's enough to justify denying 4 waves from TSM. While the inhib is exposed, Renekton can always threaten it with TP when the dragon is spawning, so Renekton basically decides what happens and as a result can just TP to dragon and always force TSM to never get that exp/gold. Pro play entirely revolves around soul/elder because of how ridiculous the buffs are at ending the game, so basically everything for the most part should be done based on dragon spawn timers, and in this game the dragon timer pointed towards not taking inhib. This stuff isn't that hard to pull off, I just think most coaches don't think it's worth considering because it's only a small increase in win percentage, but LS loves advocating for these small win percentages because they are going to be crucial in keeping up with the competition as the game continues to evolve.

[@StocksNShares]

@@thekilla1234 Disagree, 4 minion waves is nothing at this point. The time it takes for someone to take this out, is well worth the vision control you get as a 5 man team, and the possibility to not get outplayed. As 1 guy in that top lane could die with collapse with all the MS and gap closing ability in the game right now. Its a much safer option to take that pressure, and give the enemy 0 opportunity to get a free pick. As you see games in pro play won or lost all the time of one player dying before the contest even happens. This stops that from being a possibility, and makes it a higher chance of getting the objective.

[@thekilla1234]

​@@StocksNShares You don't need to be in the lane to deny the exp/gold. If you get the inhib you are not getting any exp/gold anyway. The point is that if the enemy wants to get it, THEY need to overextend for it in a losing position. You literally create a situation that is lose/lose for the enemy team. You can still be 5 man at dragon. It's just flat out better in the situation where there is a lot of time until dragon. > As you see games in pro play won or lost all the time of one player dying before the contest even happens. And this is the point. By forcing the resources away from TSM's base, they must overextend to get stronger. You can say 4 minion waves is nothing but it is not. Leblanc is level 15. That exp could be enough to get her to level 16 which is a level 3 ultimate. Is that nothing? She could be close to completing another legendary item. Is that nothing? (in this case she isn't but she could be) 4 waves is not nothing. 0 waves is nothing. By not taking the inhib, you give them 0 waves unless they want to overextend for it and you need to risk nothing for it. The enemy team is weaker and will not try to contest vision around the dragon, so they want to get as many resources as they can for the inevitable dragon fight. Once the dragon is started, the super minions are irrelevant. The dragon fight will decide the game, not the super minions. If a region continues to disregard small advantages, they will be outclassed by teams that begin to employ them. Saying "4 waves is nothing" is nonsense. Level 15 -> level 16 is massive for most champions. Any level adds a lot of gold in base stats to a champion. Completing an item adds a lot of value to the components. If you just sit there and hand wave away stuff because "it's basically nothing" then your region will become weak. The LCS is weak because they don't consider the same things that the stronger regions consider. The LCS will continue to be shit compared to other regions until they consider playing the game to win a world championship like the other regions are and not to play professional solo queue.

[@StocksNShares]

@@thekilla1234 I could explain it so you would understand. But look how many SUPER waves LB gets before dragon is up. Its 1, not 4. Nicely counted. Spica dies trying to release pressure for 30 seconds worth, by clearing 1 bot wave. Dies for it. Allowed DIG to push for enhib. If he did not die. Bot turret. Dragon. Bot turret. Enhib. Baron. Soul dragon (not needed at this point but could be done). And end. If you need more explanation than that. I am sorry. Its late, i need to sleep. But if you want me to bore you with every detail. Add me on discord and ill run you through it tomorrow exactly what makes it a perfect enhib take. (Sanders1995#0146)

[@krsnadasafernandez7105]

Its weird the didn't have 10cs per min

[@wassup222gaming5]

why is spica so cute

[@flailofthelord]

what was that on ur timeline monkaW

[@Dervig]

description say LEC analysis nice, otherwise pog content

[@LAce.]

Wind do be becoming lightning

[@poadude]

his f keys are actually really clean, im impressed

[@theseaquiel5398]

But isn't malz really good vs Dig comp? The only champ that can hurt him is ezreal, and he counters like 4 out of 5 champs. I don't know why people refuses to draft him. He hard wins vs melee engage comps,also he offers good waveclear wich TSM comp struggle with. In my opinion he is a lot better than LB mid.Even if he loses he is kind of a lategame assurance, offering %Hp damage, and a really good CC. I mean im not good at the game or anything but in my opinion the draft could be better here. also i think Graves as jungler could do pretty well in their comp. As botlane i would play an enchanter like lulu or janna(wich can litterally fuck the entire enemy team with her R), and something like aphelios? i don't know.....

[@pedrammosavi4829]

Loving the new contentino

[@aaronkristianlavares8121]

6:00-6:20 WAYTOODANK pepeMeltdown

[@rlnmedia260]

how you doing LS

[@trevorc3952]

Complained so much about taking top inhib but it let them end the game.

[@MlikoKakao]

If they didn't take the inhibitor and froze the wave instead of funneling free xp/gold into the enemy they would've had a higher chance of winning, but since they were so ahead and TSM had such horrible team composition it didn't matter as much.

[@colesmylie5347]

please more videos like this :)

[@bearjr3016]

I fucking love this content

[@DaFunkz]

How do people think Huni is good?

[@takumifujiwara300]

Man lost is just not it for TSM the guy is way too passive to be a TSM ADC.

[@vladkoseldarov8577]

1:33 he cant lane so its nothing new

[@ennyyyable]

wtf that bot fight 5:30

[@yanyanTOGA]

At least TSM aint throwing the league like T1

[@heehee4341]

“Taking inhib here is bad” Then top inhib supers helped them end the game

[@marcusb.7412]

I never get y taking inhib is bad. Maybe if it’s too early then ya but otherwise u get a lot of pressure to do what u want and take important objectives

[@sillysalmon784]

@@marcusb.7412 LS doesn't like people taking inhib if they can't use it to help them win. The other team can theoretically perma freeze against you at their base, making it so you miss an entire lanes worth of creeps for the entire time the inhib is up. Which is why LS doesn't like taking it. unless you can get an obvious advantage. Of course its also NA so it doesn't matter.

[@marcusb.7412]

@@sillysalmon784 hmm ive never thought about it that way. I always thought of taking inhib to give a shit ton of pressure essentially 1 lane is a always pushed and requires attention thus allowing u to get more control of objectives and better fights.

[@sillysalmon784]

@@marcusb.7412 Essentially but in competitive play teams should know how to handle lanes and make sure that the super minion lane doesn't become a problem. He talks about it a lot and LS talks about a lot of things in a "vacuum". I just think he doesn't like taking inhib unless you're setting up for an obj soon.

[@Pattelyoun]

5:40 was a kill if he wanst greedy

[@darklurkerirl6101]

remember Brokenblade ?

[@Myst1cMac]

Can you please start coaching a team. I don’t know if you have gotten offers, but it’s about time you do something in the pro scene aside from helping pros. Maybe start a team with Lemon. I know it sounds difficult but I wanna see you up against these pros you make look dumb .

[@jabberlock9267]

They are playing as a team rn, more for content than not, with nemesis. Search "ls vs t1a" on youtube

[@hakuOTR]

Aged well :peepohappy:

[@Alexandthenewwing]

We don't deserve LS, he's too based for League.

[@vrtuoso1116]

Hey LS, its everyone.

[@Legio__X]

Draft gap

[@marcel_by_s8527]

And then people say that jg is broken🤣🤣

[@teemothe3rd937]

Hey LS, it’s guys here.

[@aqil475]

I really hope they would just pick a more safe late game team comp next time

[@Taylor-bw4zg]

Lmao this must be what soloq jugglers are thinking of when they say team diff

[@RGCDTB]

I feel like you could cover the names and LS would know immediately that it was NA because nobody would freeze and the lanes would play ping pong as LS stated it my god NA sucks. The junglers or at least Acadian looked high as balls this game. I think NA is doomed. Idk how you make it to the lcs and skip scuttle crabs so religiously. Spica skipped one too for red side vision. Ping pong is cancer to watch, make it stop.

[@LabyrinthV]

Get Spica a team Madge

[@benwatts790]

sad that Ls just talk instead of actually coaching a team

[@lilCrown]

Hi LS

[@yes1810]

Nice.

[@lilwayn1000]

i like ur videos but can u plz stop hitin the desk its booming

[@JMQD.1997]

Nice

[@GamerFromHeck]

Another TSM game, another Huni Gnar.

[@mmsleepycatmm]

super poggers

[@fudgefactor1639]

Day 7 of going in

[@zedtrinax4295]

POG

[@years-ti7xl]

And this is why Spica is the only relevant jungler in LCS, when LS actually praises a NA jungler, you know that guy is good.

[@MrRfarleydude]

LOL

[@johnpauljonesisabadass8134]

Ehh...

[@yuno6097]

Think of it like this. Junglers amplify laners and laners amplify the jungler. If one of each is trash then the whole team is trash.

[@ognf78]

Kekwwww

[@geraldshi_]

pog

[@EpicVideoMaster11]

gg

[@jame7569]

Lawl

[@nazfive7063]

why is he pinging as if he isnt in a voice coms...

[@leganihanoi]

Stm washed up

[@bonkeykong1487]

was never good

[@leganihanoi]

@@bonkeykong1487 no cap

[@SnuggleLabes]

This is embarrassing

[@VietSytlezzz]

I’ve never a more useless lee sin with no early game pressure

[@yokometalable]

jungler: hits f key for 1 nanosecond obtaining zero useful information LS: this guy is a god

[@smrdakonj5220]

The fact that you can't obtain any usefull information from f keying just means that you are low elo garbage, it doesn't mean that Spica doesn't obtain it.