Lucy Letby appeal update

[@Lee-Ann-g1n]

I am a neonatal nurse with over 20 years experience in the specialty and I do not believe she is guilty. Look at the unit. Look at the medical staff. Look at the skill mix, both medical and nursing. Way too easy to point a finger and assign blame for the loss of a fragile, innocent life so someone feels better. I am sickened that this young women’s life has been destroyed. I can only hope that one day we shall look back in shame at the judgement.

[@learnlawwithhannah]

@tocolitic How come?

[@julieyates405]

Me too! What was conveniently brushed aside was the truth!

[@chrisw706]

Interestingly I read some of the comments from one of the videos that was posted days before the verdict and most people didn't think there was sufficient evidence at that point so it is bizarre that so many people are now convinced that the verdict was correct. The New Yorker article is a must read particularly with for anybody that buys the so called statistical evidence.

[@bristolfashion4421]

The more I read about this case, the more I start to think that her defence team didn't do very well... 😮

[@learnlawwithhannah]

I know! I think there’s a lot to suggest an unsafe conviction- it doesn’t necessarily mean she’s innocent but there seems to be more uncertainty now

[@jobl5505]

Is there a link for her appeal fund ?

[@ionlyemergeafterdark]

I think the appeal should have been allowed. I think also the conviction is unsafe because, by my information, the evidence was circumstantial. Circumstantial evidence is weak, to say the least, in my opinion because we often find ourselves in circumstances which have nothing to do with anything that we have done or not done.

[@RollinParty]

Her legal team were absolute s**T ....

[@julieyates405]

@@RollinParty That is a fact, why is the question?

[@jackiesmith2710]

i Have always felt shes innocent, If she is its never too late for God to intervine

[@andrewcdavies21]

This entire farce is quite possibly one of the most heartbreaking things I've ever come across. For the prosecution to be allowed to deliver a closing speech that included the statement that there are "No innocent coincidences" should be absolutely bone chilling to everyone in the UK. I used to believe that we were a nation of laws, where we defend the indefensible actions of the guilty in order to ensure the freedom of the innocent. Without wanting to sound too conspiratorial, I now believe that these type of cases almost act as a national stupidity test in order to determine the extent to which the public will buy into this kind of preposterous nonsense. As Yuri Alexandrovich would describe, the useful idiot agents for the subversion of our society are now entirely in control. Where the burden of proof on the prosecution was beyond all reasonable doubt, its truly incomprehensible how the jury came to their decision. One thing that concerns me the most, is where is the outrage from the legal profession?

[@Ida_Dunne_Moore]

@@andrewcdavies21 👏👏👏 It's just obscene. If there was a bit of honesty, this nver would have happened. Honesty from the CoCH that they were nowhere near a level two; that understaffing, cramped and wildly unhygienic unit, along with consultants barely showing up, was causing unnecessary suffering and deaths. If Jayaram, Brearery etc admitted they actually did nothing, just make retaliatory complaints against Letby after being found guilty of bullying her, not informing the GMC, as is their duty, not warning coroner / pathologist of suspicion, not keeping any notes or diaries or notifying the child death oversight panel - which they sat on! They recorded the deaths as expected! Also terrifying every time you're reminded just how malleable public opinion is. The number of people who think it's wrong to question her case, because the charges are so terrible. Endless list of devastating, infuriating and scary

[@fredphipps9452]

Too much doubt, feels fishy and cruelly unfair

[@julieyates405]

It's tragic, for those who know more facts about the case outrageous!

[@JulianWard-Davies-cd8kh]

Scapegoat.

[@julieyates405]

100% Breary said in his TV interview post conviction 'It was her or us'

[@julieyates405]

Firstly, I am one of the huge body of current and former healthcare professionals who believe something has gone very wrong with this case. I'm fearful Lucy will not get a fair trial for Baby K, but hope there will be a new judge and competent unbiased jury willing to dive deeply into the facts, rather than speculation, hypothesis and inference. I weep for Lucy and her family and truly believe there's an urgent need for far reaching changes to the legal system and prosecution services, with far more checks and balances in place, because it feels like current practices may have enabled so many miscarriages of justice. What are your thoughts about the Supreme Court? Could Lucy go there next? Or is it the Criminal Case Review Comission years down the line?

[@learnlawwithhannah]

What makes you think the verdict was wrong? It’s always interesting to hear from healthcare professionals 👊 In terms of the SC- she can’t appeal anymore but the CCRC could review her case

[@julieyates405]

The case was built on hypothesis and speculation, there was no tangible evidence Lucy did anything wrong and no one saw her do anything to harm babies in her care. The science relied on to secure her convictions does not stand up to scientific scrutiny. There was evidence of poor medical management, and lack of oversight or input from neonatologists. The consultants were paediatricians, only one had an interest in Neonatology and they were largely absent, leaving ongoing management to junior doctors, who were covering other departments too. Consultants only doing twice weekly wardrounds......High grade nurses and Advanced Neonatal Nurse Practitioners were lost to the department in rounds of effeciency savings type decisions. Lucy was one of only two specialist trained nurses. She reported things like care failings, lack of staff, too many babies to care for safely, sewage coming up the sink and lack of equipment. Many suspect she was a Whistle Blower. Questions to be answered include, was there a negligence case pending against a doctor on the unit when accusations were taken to the police?

[@learnlawwithhannah]

Good to hear your thoughts. Have you ever watched a criminal case? I’d definitely recommend doing so- it’s fascinating!

[@julieyates405]

@@learnlawwithhannah Yes I have. Although it's fascinating to see how the law actually works, . I personally feel there should be a professional layer between the CPS and the courts that 'audits' the case before it gets into court. Including things like, if science is used, fact checking and peer reviewing it independently. Scrutinising the suitability and credibility of expert witnesses. Viewing evidence or requesting it, if it is not being included in the trial. Giving a larger role to Friends of the Court, to submit evidence. All things with potential to help to reduce the risk of Miscarriages of Justice. Hopefully in time, there will be changes evolving.

[@mortalclown3812]

Taking up for serial killers is always a dicey response... The trial was very long with myriad expert witnesses, but no. Poor Lucy didn't get a chance.

[@mikeshears8112]

Also legal point (& being VERY careful how i say this), there was a piece in a USA publication about the Letby case which cannot be accessed from the UK, I believe this is also to do with not prejudicing the forthcoming trial, but as you say, miscarriages of justice CAN occur, and we have to trust the system we have works, even though it will be insanely difficult for the jury in the forthcoming trial to put aside their prior knowledge of Letby . Final point, if i may. When we say "innocent" or "guilty" in everyday speech we mean "did they / didnt they do the crime". In legal terms however innocence and guilt have nuance. "A jury of your peers has decided that you did/didnt commit the crimes". We have to trust that the jury were correct because a different jury may have reached a different decision. Only one person knows 100% what Letby did or didn't do, and that it Letby herself

[@learnlawwithhannah]

Yes I saw the article that you’re talking about- I think it was the New York Times??? The British press were worried about contempt of court- interesting in this day and age and with the internet! I often wonder whether I’d trust a jury if I was accused of a crime- I’m not sure that I would…

[@julieyates405]

@@learnlawwithhannah a jury that's being led to decisions by a judge isn't quite how it should be.

[@johnlegend3218]

Another question: Do you think they will make these points of appeal public after her June trial?

[@learnlawwithhannah]

I’m not sure tbh

[@johnlegend3218]

@@learnlawwithhannah It will be interesting that. If they don't then I will like to know why.

[@julieyates405]

I feel it should never have been up to a jury to decide the causes of death, that was up to the Coroner.....

[@mortalclown3812]

Perhaps learn a microscopic amount about the judicial system prior to drawing lightweight conclusions.

[@Ida_Dunne_Moore]

​@@mortalclown3812perhaps learn a little about the specifics of the case. There's almost no way she is guilty

[@watnamecaniuseforfs]

Did the coroner who performed the post mortems find any evidence of foul play?

[@julieyates405]

@@watnamecaniuseforfs No. The doctors involved had not suggested foul play until almost 2 years later I believe, after hearing there were grounds for parents of another child to litigate from a barrister called in to advise. Had the Coroner been told deaths were unusual, unexpected and suspicious, different testing could have been included. Natural causes, extreme prematurity, pneunomia, sepsis etc were recognised in almost all on post-mortems.

[@rwaneuin6259]

They should just drop the next court case because she is already in prison for all her life.

[@learnlawwithhannah]

I get your point but I think it’s more to do with justice for the family if she’s found guilty- it means that there would be recognition of her wrong doing. I do wonder if it’s even possible for her to get a fair trial though…

[@julieyates405]

The big problem is the long retired doctor (medical expert) is investigating deaths that occured in departments she worked throughout her career, so I suspect this may carry on for some time.

[@Ida_Dunne_Moore]

​@@julieyates405Dewi Evans is the new Roy Meadows. Appalling what he has done

[@julieyates405]

@@Ida_Dunne_Moore I really hope what he has done gets scrutinised very closely at the highest levels and systems are put in place to prevent anything like it happening ever again. It's beyond belief!

[@Ida_Dunne_Moore]

@@julieyates405 it really is!

[@Stabe1981]

I cant get my head around theres a serial killer and something else harming the babies. This doesnt make sense. 😮

[@MichaelMcAdam-j1k]

Hello. Has the lucy letby trial started?

[@learnlawwithhannah]

Yes- I’ll be posting a video at the end of the week 🤓

[@mikeshears8112]

Legal point, please correct me if im wrong. This is the end of her appeal FOR NOW. At a future date if there is "new &/or compelling evidence" i think she could again seek leave to appeal?

[@learnlawwithhannah]

In theory yes but in reality very very unlikely

[@stevehiggins79]

It’s 100% a miscarriage of justice. So very likely at some point, just a matter of time. Hopefully then we can reform this incompetent/corrupt judiciary

[@neilross5509]

@@stevehiggins79 Trouble is even the Thirlwall Inquiry is controlled by a Court of Appeal Judge - a certain Dame Kathryn Mary Thirlwall, DBE, styled The Rt Hon Lady Justice Thirlwall, an English judge of the Court of Appeal, and since December 2019 the Senior Presiding Judge for England and Wales. Bound to go against her Court of Appeal colleagues - isn't she!

[@lilibetfellinger8641]

Please listen to Myers closing statement, parts 1, 2 and 3. The brain boggles!

[@johnlegend3218]

Im still confused by this case. Is this the end of permission to appeal for good or will she be able to try again in the future?

[@learnlawwithhannah]

This is the end of her appeal process

[@rwaneuin6259]

@@tocolitic The judges have spoken. She is guilty. Move on.

[@neilross5509]

Lucy Letby can apply for the Criminal Cases Review Commission to review her case for possible referral back to the Court of Appeal, but it takes years! She has been fitted up good and proper unless the Thirlwall Inquiry starts asking proper questions - which it won't! Also, the Court of Appeal's Review into whether it makes getting an Appeal hearing too difficult continues at a snail's place and the recommendations of the 2011 Law Commission Review into the risks of miscarriages of justice due to reliance on expert witness evidence in criminal cases remain in the bin where the Government threw them in 2013. What a farce! Meanwhile the number of media articles questioning the evidence used to convict Lucy Letby will grow and grow! What did you mean the results of the tests cannot be used to prove insulin poisoning???

[@mazyarkanani6708]

I think she has a variant of Munchhausen’s by Proxy. They can be notoriously crafty and difficult to catch

[@learnlawwithhannah]

Interesting- how would that work? She thought she was helping the babies 🤔

[@mazyarkanani6708]

@@learnlawwithhannah she would be seeking attention for herself by instigating a medical emergency. Classically “M by Proxy” involves a parents that feigns an illness in their child to seek attention with multiple A&E admissions. The strange thing about these personality disorders is that she herself may not have wanted to harm the babies but felt compelled to do it and couldn’t stop herself. That inner conflict can make them very convincing liars

[@robwood9531]

I don't think she has this at all. They may be crafty at hiding it on a superficial level. But if you do a deep dive, would be obvious. Nothing of significance has come out from her communications, browser history, previous relationships or behaviours to support this. Look at Beverley Allit case and her behavioural history, this is what you would expect to see.

[@juenothing5432]

Really. Is that like the now in doubt shaky baby syndrome?? Honestly. All those women like Aally Clark tarred with that idiotic ridiculous so called medical condition. Ever known a man convicted of that munchausen syndrome? No I thought not!

[@mortalclown3812]

Amazing to see those defending a serial killer who had myriad expert witnesses testify. Her cowardice in not coming to court will, I hope, be corrected in all future trial dates.

[@Ida_Dunne_Moore]

Myriad expert witnesses? The plumber? No. She had none. It's very difficult to get defence experts in child abuse cases, and especially one this notorious. She also ran out of money, while the prosecution had an endless supply. Dewi Evan's came up with novel murder methods, like 'splinting the diaphragm' by over feeding or with air. Never has another death been known by this method. He's an old crank of the same type as Roy Meadows

[@andymousoulou3862]

Well she admitted the two baby’s died with insulin poisoning whilst under her care hence murdered but said it was not her that killed the babies all murders happened on her shifts it’s weird -the nail in her coffin is the weirdest way she acted - ie searching the parents on Facebook allegedly to glute she was playing god - the bizarre notes she kept and she kept a record in her diary of the day the babies died ( with a symbol identification only known to her ) -which normal person does that - name one - why is the date and time of the deceased babies important to her ? - reality she was allegedly getting a buzz playing God - NOBODY REALISES THE DEATHS OF THESE BABIES BECAUSE THEY WERE BABIES - CAN YOU IMAGINE 7 ADULT CORPSE ? Let that sink in

[@Ida_Dunne_Moore]

She / her defence were told there was proof. She had no option, as far as I can tell. The problem is, the test they used, which in itself is suspicious as it wasnt noted at the time, is not a measure of insulin but insulin response. It measures c peptide, but not insulin and it even has NOT FOR INVESTIGATION OF FACTITIOUS INSULIN on the label. If they did that test and saw the frankly unsurvivable levels, the lab would have phoned the hospital and got a proper test done in a lab capable giving an accurate, forensically reliable result. The problems with the other alleged murders are the same - the evidence is weak

[@Ida_Dunne_Moore]

Not all babies died on her shift. Somewhere between 15-19 died during that time, most of which she wasnt present for. They were drastically understaffed & most were part time while she worked incredible hours - almost 50% of the time. She worked in NICU with the most vulnerable babies, and their rates rose alongside the introduction of the level 2, and dropped with its withdrawal - 7 days after Letby left

[@Ida_Dunne_Moore]

The symbol - you understand she as constantly in training and nurses are told to keep diaries? - was LD. Long day. V common abbreviation. The number of fallacies and misinformation in your comment is really concerning, because they are so frequently used. I implore you to look at some of the critics and their work- this is without a shadow of a doubt a MoJ. Those babies and the medical negligence they suffered, it's horrifying. Then to weaponise and exploit the parent's grief this way is appalling

[@andymousoulou3862]

@@Ida_Dunne_Moore What about the letter left - Hate - I did this - I’m evil ? Is that normal from a person with mental capacity? Can we trust someone writing this obviously lacking mental capacity to mind our babies - sorry I can’t

[@andymousoulou3862]

@@Ida_Dunne_Moore What about the letter left - Hate - I did this - I’m evil ? Is that normal from a person with mental capacity? Can we trust someone writing this obviously lacking mental capacity to mind our babies - sorry I can’t

[@chrisstones3488]

I understand if you dont want to answer this question, but do you think Lucy Letby is guilty?

[@learnlawwithhannah]

I think so- we have to believe that the jury did a good job. The fact that they found her not guilty on some counts shows that they only convicted when they were sure. But….miscarriages of justice do happen and we have seen this in a number of high profile cases. What are your thoughts?

[@octagon12011]

​@@learnlawwithhannahI sat on a jury that found a man guilty. Ever since I have been haunted by the thought that we made the wrong decision. Like the Lucy Letby case there was no direct evidence of guilt.

[@Anonymous1-be7gs]

@@octagon12011this one is a solid conviction. I’ve read books on the Birmingham six, Kevin Barry etc. they were blatantly obvious wrongful convictions. This case was built over 2 years with methodical analysis of shift patterns, unexplained collapses, confession note possible etc.

[@stevehiggins79]

@@learnlawwithhannahit’s not the jury fault they have been fed false information . The system has been abused here, like the post office scandal I’m sure there will come out in the future. There are evidently nefarious actors at work here.

[@timtreadwell54]

How’s things with you today beautiful?.. absolutely love your videos X

[@learnlawwithhannah]

Glad you’re enjoying them Tim!

[@timtreadwell54]

@@learnlawwithhannah I am.. thank you for posting X

[@andymousoulou3862]

What about the letter left - Hate - I did this - I’m evil ? Is that normal from a person with mental capacity? Can we trust someone writing this obviously lacking mental capacity to mind our babies - sorry I can’t

[@Ida_Dunne_Moore]

@@andymousoulou3862 So, the background- She had initially been cleared of wrongdoing by the RCPCH investigation. She had been exculpated in her grievance claim against doctors Brearery and Jayaram over their bullying. Then, despite this she was moved to a desk job which she hated, then suspended, told not to talk about what was going on with others and then finally she was arrested at home, where her house was searched , she was detained for 3 days and interrogated 13 times. After this she was bailed to her parents home which was then searched. That's when they found these notes which to me read very much like a extremely distressed, near suicidal person processing an unthinkable situation. I very much doubt, if she was this cunning heartless killer, she would have written it and certainly I doubt she would have left it in her parent's home. Please Google 'Lucy Letby's notes' and have a close read yourself. I would ask you to note how she has written above the allegedly incriminating things "I have done nothing wrong" along with lots of other bits about slander, discrimination, 'why me' etc. Above the famous line "I AM EVIL I DID THIS" are the words "they went" in cursive. For me, it looks like processing allegations put to her by the police. I'm not sure of the exact times, but this would have been a couple of years after she was moved, so it must have been hell for a long time. She uses cursive, I think to express her own thoughts, and uppercase is intrusive thoughts, maybe instead of quotation marks. No question marks are used. It's an emotional outpouring

[@SuperBoomslang]

@@Ida_Dunne_Moore Very well explained - you could not have done more.

[@OperationFoxley19441]

If Lucy Letby was Black you wouldn't get all the simps on here saying she's innocent.

[@julieyates405]

Many of the people saying she is innocent are doctors, nurses, scientists, statistians and legal professionals not simps!

[@bristolfashion4421]

But, she’s not…

[@OperationFoxley19441]

@@bristolfashion4421 I know she's not innocent................👍

[@WesleyWattley-xy4fg]

Not True injustice has a Frequency not a colour😮