Procedural Generation is Hard - devlog

[@yamasaa]

8:00 This is such a clever way of mixing "procedural" with handmade, it can triple or quadruple the amount of possible rooms being generated for the same amount of work, great stuff!

[@eboatwright_]

This is awesome! I love the way it's coming together, the new graphics at the end looked amazing It'd be really cool if you had a gamemode called something like "Amnesia" where every time you come back up to the base, you keep everything you're holding, but the entire cave system re-generates So basically like a Hardcore mode, but a little different

[@lukemuscat]

Amnesia mode is perfectly named and a great idea!

[@eboatwright_]

@@lukemuscat Glad you like it! I love it when games include extra hard gamemodes, it keeps the game more interesting for experienced players :D

[@daleanabolinaga7749]

@@lukemuscat Is That The Guy Who Making FEED THE DEEP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[@sspookiee]

This could also have the rotating camera he said could be used :>

[@hamzahgamedev]

Not only Luke is a champ in game dev, his video production skills are next level in itself. 😍 I literally pause every 10 seconds to take notes while watching this.

[@degariuslozak2169]

With every devlog I get more and more excited to play this game❤

[@DommoDommo]

I love that image generation, such a simple utilization but super expansive and non-repetitive.

[@deepysingh800]

Cool! Now the caves are more fun and random! Love the new visuals, can't wait for your next update video! What could be cool if each biome had their own set of those blue tile pieces (or at least have a majority of their possible tiles to choose from be unique to each biome), so you can have biomes that felt more open, biomes that felt more claustrophobic, biomes that had more jagged walls, etc.

[@lukemuscat]

Yeah that's a great idea! It's definitely a super scalable system, really the only limiting factor will be time :)

[@the_multus]

@@lukemuscat it doesn't have to be a whole separate set, just a general trend in the biome

[@the_multus]

To create the feeling of narrowness, you can use damaging obstacles for the player to carefully avoid: a stalagmite that punctures the O2 tank, a clump of coiling seaweed, an abrasive corridor to damage the payload etc.

[@calebgilbertyt]

There's something so authentic I love about your videos, and yet they're so entertaining!

[@sillicon8227]

8:18 Love that he left in that little blooper

[@GermiesCoasterYard]

It would be cool if, when going through narrow passages, you are either slowed down or forced to "wiggle" to get through them. This could add intensity if you are running from a creature or running out of air.

[@JJ-xt2dq]

Yh was thinking the same thing

[@luks303]

But if the passages are that narrow you wont be able to bring the stuff you find with you

[@lucbloom]

That would be awesome. Wiggle the thumbstick to squeeze through narrow passages. Not sure how realistic that is. I’m guessing with real diving, you best not jam yourself that tight. Anyway, still cool and suspenseful.

[@theunknown4834]

​@@lucbloomI wouldn't say wiggle is accessible for keyboard and realistic. I think a bit of a physics mini game of moving each limb through the hole. Not too sure how but that's my idea.

[@BouncyBonBon]

Woo I've been super excited for a devlog! Can't wait to asee what you make in the end.

[@theonlyjoe_]

I absolutely love the fact you got cedar for the soundtrack. Also idk if you realise it, but this is an incredible lesson on level design, which is something I’m currently trying to wrap my head around at uni.

[@lukemuscat]

Level design is actually how I got started in game dev. My first job was as a junior level designer. I really wanna make a game where I can just spend ages grinding out levels again one day, it is so rewarding!

[@theonlyjoe_]

@@lukemuscat that sounds awesome? What do you remember from that first job and are there any notable differences in entry level jobs from when you started vs today? Also I just want to thank you for both fruit ninja and jetpack joyride. I always use those as examples for simple ideas that go a long way.

[@sarfxa9974]

you forgot to deleted from the "Projects" playlist, i'm not sure if it was intentional or not...

[@leonides4377]

how is this 1 day ago?

[@SayedSafwan]

@@leonides4377 now that i noticd it, how tf? 💀💀

[@IeeIee778]

Either its patreon or membership is how

[@rorygillen1]

​@@leonides4377 did you read the comment. The video was unlisted but the video was put in a playlist which means you could watch it.

[@lukemuscat]

I had NO IDEA that people could access unlisted videos via a playlist, hahaha. Thanks for the heads up!

[@avdeshmathur1036]

Don't forget to add multiplayer mode. It will give you a longer playtime, and retention and I do believe game streamers will play that game with their fellow streamers and make it viral.

[@CheesecakeMilitia]

I really like the randomness weights you have included in your room templates - helps avoid the recognition that plagues stuff like Bloodborne's chalice dungeons (I wonder when Miyazaki will revisit that idea in the future).

[@fundaez1250]

I feel so lucky to be able to play the game through your creative development ! It’s coming along, and I can’t wait to see how it grows!

[@Frogge]

This is really nice! I wanted to suggest one thing though - without being sure exactly how you would implement it, lots of real-life diving caves have a ton of variation in how tight or open the walls are. Many underwater caves have rooms that get so big you can't see the walls on all four sides at once. I think this could be a cool thing to have happen sometimes in the game, where it changes the 'goal' of navigating an area from going through a maze-like structure (the main navigation now) to once in a while being more of a time-based, 'find the exit' style large, open room. The post processing effects and the shifting colours in the background already look great and so I think adding enough interest in those rooms would just be a matter of small, room-specific background elements for light to reflect off of, or maybe some little fish swimming around.

[@lukemuscat]

Yeah this is a super good observation. One thing I didn't show in the video is there are actually some sections that are essentially inverted, where you start with water and add walls, and you can actually get totally lost and stranded in just open infinite water! But even still I think there is more work to be done in creating those variations!

[@GrahamOfLegend]

I love the top down physical explination of your systems! So different and engaging! 🔥

[@carrott36]

I saw the steam image looked different, and was honestly surprised when I found no new video. Here it is!

[@anilkumar-or8nx]

- Adding water current could be fun way to add difficulty or challenge, like player can be playing normally and suddenly a strong water current comes and washes them to a different part of the map, from there have to figure out a way to come back up with out any knowledge of the map. - When a player reaches to gold, the path behind them collapses or gets blocked, so they have to find a new way to go back up. - There could be some special fishes if players gets in contact with them their battery could recharge to some extent or plants that will let player develop gills and breathe under water, like in Harry Potter.

[@ragingstorm_15]

That could work with hand drawn rooms, cause you could draw two exits and on collapse, there is still a definite way out. Maybe, the collapsed rocks could be movable objects, and if you’re in a dead end you have to dig your way out!😊

[@Air_Raider]

Great video! I find procedural generation so fascinating. It’s just mesmerizing when you find the perfect balance of randomness, complexity and intent. Also; I subscribed after the Fruit Ninja video, and I just want to say that this project looks great. I like how you use it to teach us game design and how you share your development journey. Keep up the great work!

[@Rg_fesf]

Idk if you´re still implementing ideas from the comments but i had an Idea: if your oxygen gets low your visibility gets decreased by making everything darker (or differently idk). That could resemble panic and oxygen deprivation. You could do it as when your oxygen is very low everything around you is darker while swimming but when you stop you can see much clearer. Then you need to slow down for second every once in a while to think through the way you need to take to get to the surface. I´m really looking forward for the release of the game.

[@legendaryswordsman2279]

As a gamedev myself procedural generation is one of my favorite things. It's extremely fascinating so video's like this are always such a treat to watch. Thanks Luke!

[@davidmcky]

Hey Luke! Thanks for creating great games! I recently discovered Feed The Deep in my steam library and I realized I was accepted into the play testing for the demo!! I played through the game, and it was the best experience I've had gaming in a LONG time! As a hobbyist inde dev myself, I was inspired by your project and recreated a version of this game for Global Game Jam this past weekend! The game I made is obviously much much worse then feed the deep, but you got me excited to play and create games again, thanks for that!

[@humble-hedgehog]

Really liked the breakdown of the thought process! Thanks for putting this together, can't wait to apply a similar setup for a game myself

[@efirir]

Wow new graphics looks really nice. Great job, can't wait to see the next devlog ❤

[@wittyadrian]

Man what a great video! At first you totally lost me when you disregared your old system. "That works perfectly fine, doesn't it?" I thought. But after seeing your logic and reasoning for the new system I am completely turned around. I tried a similar system in a game a while back, but using the RBG channels to determine likelyhood of things spawning is sooo smart! I'm definitely going to steal that trick for some of my own level generation. Keep up the amazing work, can't wait to see where you take this project next!!

[@WaluigiGoesWa]

When I made my first game for the games for change game jam, I made the game take place on the seafloor, and one of the main things I wanted to do was procedural generation. It definitely wasn’t as complex as what you did, but it used a lot of the same techniques, like having tiles that would look next to each other to determine what they should be.

[@GabeNotNewell]

good and fun idea to the game would be adding collapsable caves. some caves would have "Danger!" sign and approaching them would pop up GUI with info: "Chance of cave to collapse:##%" (## are number) player can enter that cave for a risk of cave being collapsed for greater treasure like artifacts worth way more than gold, and if the cave collapsed on you, you get rescued, but at cost of gold and treasure you had collected. player can spend gold to fortify the caves to lower the chance or spend enough to make cave completly save to enter

[@lukepowers8122]

Like the way the procedural generation is working! I feel like sometimes the floating bits look a little weird and out of place though.

[@Trasqual]

It's amazing to see how a simple design change can affect the depth of the game so much, great work :)

[@smitner]

Incredible technique for procedurandom generation and very clearly explained, thanks a ton Luke!

[@osamahabdulaziz7121]

‏‪10:14‬‏ "And they didn't care when I told them either" man that must really hurt💔😂

[@Hazball]

Yoo, everyone tuned into your Jetpack/Fruit Ninja stories but you are holding the audience with your epic new game!!! Not a bad thing my any means, perfect leverage of internet attention and I love where this is going. Super keen for the diving game :) Cheers Luke keep up the KZbin

[@kaselier1116]

Really love this idea. It would be really interesting to see a hexagonal grid. That way, room connections could go at diagonals like natural caves. I'm not sure it would enhance the experience enough to justify the implementation headache, but it would still be cool!

[@lukemuscat]

I actually did try hexagonal grids wayyy back in the first video I did about this for that exact reason! But yeah in the end it was a bit of a headache to work with, and ultimately you can build nice tiles + tile rules to get the diagonals, even if they are still 45 degrees ish. It also just adds a bit of overhead on every new thing you add because my brain doesn't work as quickly in hex as it does in squares haha.

[@hunterh1175]

Maybe an "air pocket" mechanic would be interesting. Like, if there is a vertical sort of chemney with certain things in it such as, I dunno, a shipwreck or lots of algae or something, there could be an air pocket at the top of the "chemny". You could even connect whole cave systems with "air pocket" shortcuts, letting you explore further if you're willing to take the risk that there might _not_ be an air pocket above. And because it's only ambient air, no pump to refill your SCUBA tank, it would only refill your "stamina" a little so as to not replace the base.

[@pauldaulby260]

The way you turned the pile of paper blobs into interesting looking maps by hand was by pushing them apart but still keeping some connection. Makes me think you could probably generate interesting levels that way, by giving map sections stickiness and repellent forces of varying strengths to replicate what you were doing by hand.

[@KonesMorroh]

Oh yes, the music is gonna be a banger for this game for sure😏

[@paulytheking7365]

This game keeps getting better! If you need any music for the game, I'd be happy to compose the soundtrack.

[@disappointedcreeper]

Yeah, that new procedural generation system is great! I've used a kind of similar method in a project that got scrapped, but it was much more random.

[@johncenas8942]

You should add a rope upgrade, mostly to escape if things go south and you’re lost, the player would have a rope visually attached to them but it has a certain range, past that range it doesn’t work and will visually detach but can be reattached by going back into its range next to the detached rope

[@fendtfahrer8117]

Very good video! And good explanation of the script as well!

[@imadudewithissues]

this guy needs more subs bro made fruit ninja and jetpack joyride and youtube forgot to recommend this guy for 2 months

[@IdoBerg]

Luke i jsut wanted to say thank you so much for making your games! fruite ninja, jetpack joyride are my childhood games that bring me into Phone-gaming! if you will ever need any music for your next games please let me know! i would LOVE to compose music for your for free as well just to be a part of it :)) that would be super awesome!

[@Cats-TM]

Such a simple game yet looks genuinely quite fun...though, you are known for very simple yet quite fun games so that does make sense.

[@zentoa]

How about air pockets in the game? Edit: didnt realy explain why did I? But i think that it adds the idea to go down even further but you cant reclaim you treasure in the air pockets. So it would be riskier as you are more likely to run out of oxygen and lose your stuff, but with that, the reward of going down further

[@Hazball]

Yeah he mentioned air pockets in an earlier video, I'm sure they'll be included!

[@zentoa]

@@Hazball I thought he had but I couldn't remember

[@cubondemais]

As a programmer, a tip for the long code that you can't keep it all in your head: Try to split the code in a mostly linear set of functions. You'll probably end up with a main function branching into a few secondary functions that have its own little functions. This way you can wrap your head around the main idea of the generator code and each of its parts. Usually it's good to keep functions to max 20 lines and max 3 or 4 indentation levels. That would make it readable, but it might not be performatic, so it would probably need to be balanced out. Another benefit of breaking code down like this would be multithreading could get easier to do.

[@robbertzzzzz]

Instead of grids you could also experiment with a random walk algorithm. That would make sure that theres always more cave near the base, but everything else it totally random still. you could have multiple connections to one biome from another too that way. To keep biome generation super simple, just spawn new random walkers every now and then from your existing cave, where each walker creates a biome.

[@jikkermanccini]

This was a fascinating video! I'm hoping to make a similar system for distributing the rooms of a house themed dungeon; I have absolutely zero clue how to code this sort of thing though, so getting a little peek into the mind of a professional is incredibly helpful.

[@murkywters]

idea for an enemy type. giant squid tentacles reaching out trying ti grab you at random intervals.

[@LowpolySquid]

Finally new devlog! Love it, i think it will amazing if you add ice walls in game, that youncan melt with special upgrade

[@garryschniderham8291]

I love that you say "Maths", that's what I say. Everyone including some fellow Aussies says "Math". Thank you

[@Dangineering]

If you wanted to maintain this art style and gameplay you could (if you wanted to expand the map) make it 3D by creating sort of "portals" or holes in certain areas of the cave wall that if entered lead to a sort of parallel plane map such that if one were to step back and look at the entire map it would look like a stack of 2D cave maps all interconnected to the next with various portals at various locations. This way you can add hand crafted cave systems that are fundamental to game play (kind of like terraria temples) but without losing the expansive nature of the procedurally generated terrain and increasing the mapsize. Just a thought.

[@LonelyTurtle-xd5yb]

The transaction of different caves. You can make a chunk loading system or something like that to smoothen the transaction from cave 1 to cave 2. Now it is jumping from one to other with a /tp command.

[@LonelyTurtle-xd5yb]

Also maybe give the game a story/lore. Like in Subnautica. You can add something like ancient ruins everywhere, they can be pre-made or maybe just randomly generated

[@ItsJustCaesar]

i think this is the best video he has done yet

[@СтаниславМарков-б1в]

This seems like an amazing game, can't wait for it

[@FatDino]

6:07 hi Mr. Tuna!

[@vladroll2607]

Looking forward to playing your game! This new cave generation looks great! 👍

[@AG-tl8oq]

I am thinking that we could have more then just hostile creatures, like maybe just a large cave fish, or a crab hanging around one of the smaller areas, like more nertural or passive creatures

[@Meonge6089]

My scratch game just randomly picks what color the terrain is 😭

[@ReluctantReader]

Awesome vid Luke, always going to be coming back for any updates to the project

[@_Jitesh_]

This was such a cool and informative video. Eagerly waiting to see the changes you made during this time. Just a small suggestion, please also add the game screenshot to the thumbnail so that is it catchier and also just easier to consider watching for the people who are following the dev-log. All the best :)

[@malserc]

It would be cool if add some rare spooky sounds that randomly appear like in Minecraft, when you casually go mining in a cave, and that one scary sound appears from nowhere

[@marzipan6902]

Nice work on the new update! I think it would be really cool to have adaptive/dynamic music that changes whether or not you are in different biomes and stuff, for example: maybe when you are in that sunken ship area, it could be like calming yet erie music playing, since i feel like the sunken ship might be a safe-ish area with a lot of treasure. Another suggestion: maybe when theres a monster nearby, the music would go silent and all you hear is a faint heartbeat (the heartbeat gets louder the closer the monster is) also maybe there could be special monsters per biome so its not just a differently colored cave. Idk if ur gonna read this but i hope these features can get added sometime! Gl with your game! :D

[@lukemuscat]

We are definitely messing around with some of these kinds of ideas! We already do some cool low-pass filtering as you go deeper, hopefully we have enough budget make lots of different tracks to make it really dynamic.

[@TheToucanMan]

I cant wait for the release!

[@syncr0904]

This level generation technique sounds a bit like wave function collapse but cooler. Looking forward to seeing more updates and playing it when its done!

[@kairu_b]

Awesome work as always

[@detlefsoosmann8070]

so technically every square that is now generated with different shades of blue could also be inverted, to give it an inch more generative variety, just an idea

[@JJ-xt2dq]

Finally! I was waiting for the next devlog!

[@rodriguinhodasilva9331]

Loved the vid! The game looks great, but it would be cool if there were small pockets of air on random spots, so the player has a chance to take a breath, with the air decreasing the longer the player stays

[@redpen8810]

Oh shit new Luke Muscat video dropped

[@hjewkes]

Reminds me a lot of Spelunky's level generation. EDIT: Ahh yup you mention that. Cool stuff

[@WiseNoodleOfficial]

Pretty handy timing! Doing some procedural terrain soon on my game :D

[@chuck_muckle]

finally! ive been waiting for a new video. i cant wait to test out this game, ive had it wishlisted for months and im really excited how youre gonna make it turn out.

[@miasmi5992]

I WILL BE SEATED FOR EVERY LUKE MUSCAT VIDEO

[@oneproplanet]

I don't know, at least the trailer sounds pretty good, I'm not sure the audio needs balancing

[@AustinWeeks]

6:16 The title in the comments perfectly sums up my professionalism whenever changing my code 😆

[@lukemuscat]

Haha, I hadn't spotted that before. I'm just happy I have any comments at all :)

[@willeber]

The grid system reminds me of the game Carcassonne

[@kukuelmuku8447]

I don't know if it will be too annoying, but what if there were some pointy or sharp rocks that could cut the ropes that connect to the cargo, so that you have to be extra careful. I think it gives a more realistic layer to the game that penalizes the players that play the game unrealistically without caring about the cargo since it will always be connected to the diver.

[@JackAllpikeMusic]

Great video Luke, I do wonder however why you chose to go with this route for generating terrain rather than something more noise-based. I'm sure you're aware of what perlin noise is and I'd be surprised if you weren't aware that it's used for terrain generation quite extensively - and allows quite a bit of control when paired with something similar to your system actually. So I'm curious as to why you've chosen to do it this way - where you are still hand-designing tiles for the wave function collapse algorithm to use. It really seems like manually drawing those tiles with the different blue values would take a lot longer to ensure they work how you want rather than generating them using a noise function. It's still possible to ensure that paths are created in the way you want, so that a path connects one side to another - though admittedly it does get a little complicated there. But given what you're trying to do I think it suits the goal better. Of course that's just my opinion though. Great video once again. :)

[@lukemuscat]

Great question! Mostly it's because I want to have more control over some really specific shapes. While there is a lot of randomisation in the tiles, there is also quite a bit of intent (e.g. this L tile sends you on a very circuitous route to connect the rooms, and I know this will generate ~1/10th of the time). I can also change it up so that different sections can have very distinct characteristics (e.g. the whole thing has no diagonals, no open spaces, vs this area is very organic and loose). You could totally achieve all of that with perlin noise with good rule setting, but I like the mix of authored intentional design and unpredictable randomness with this method!

[@JackAllpikeMusic]

@@lukemuscat That makes sense! I guess given my specialty is more as a programmer rather than game designer I hadn't thought about it from the actual game design side of things. Thanks for the explanation. :)

[@kemaltheeraser]

You are a part of my childhood bro!

[@Sebboebbo]

Da king is back baby he neva miss

[@faland0069]

i wonder if it's possible to add some chunks that span multiple grid spaces, that can be put in randomly? there was another comment talking about how there needs to be more variation in how open the caves are, and maybe it could help with that?

[@lukemuscat]

Yep, totally possible! I didn't get to it in the video but there are also areas where it is inverted, and you are in an infinite cavernous space with walls being added, rather than water being added, so that flips the vibe to feeling super open as well.

[@comebackguy8892]

Wooaaahh!!! This must be the adrenaline a sports fan feels.

[@miasmi5992]

Super nice that you seem to have made the same system as spelunky (LOL I JUST GOT TO THE PART WHERE U SAID THAT MY BAD)

[@turkey_sandwhich]

AYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYAYAYYY new upload

[@spaceowl5957]

This video is great, it should really have more views! Maybe the thumbnail isn’t tad enticing?

[@atharvtambe14]

This is Genius!!!

[@tacospin_]

i was gonna mention spelunky but you already did lol!

[@lukemuscat]

It's a huge testament to that game that so many people are familiar with its level generation!

[@tacospin_]

it's true, i've sunk hundreds of hours in spelunky 2, I was obsessed!@@lukemuscat

[@lukemuscat]

@@tacospin_ It's just actually so good. I still play the daily challenge most days. Never managed to crack 7-99 though!

[@tacospin_]

@@lukemuscat that is dedication! and i never cracked 7-99 either, though I do think about picking the game back up from time to time

[@kiltrokills5527]

Im worried not enough dopamine and the art has been done too many times. MORE GAMBLING!

[@theratingguy5659]

Luke I love your stuff but right now I am struggling to get into making games. I joined a game jam and barely contributed to my team and I still don't know whether I should go through a course or make many different projects. Could I get some pointers on how to see some progress while preparing for finals? Great video though.

[@breadguyy]

The perosn that helped make jetpack joyride's theme is coming back in feed the deep??? so cool...

[@rogueabyss]

I see you're going for the spelunky style of level generation, it's a good way to do natural generation, do you plan to release this to the playtest? (I should make a yt video on the playtest actually) .... and you mention spelunky at the end of the video lol

[@Wilsooooon]

I feel like this would be great as a mobile or console game

[@marcellmichl8290]

The only thing I dont like about it, is that because of the grid based generation, the map is very rectangular. To go to the other room, you always have to go up, down, right or left, never diagonally or something, and I think that breaks the immersion of being in a natural cave a bit. It looks more like an artificial maze than a naturally generated cave. But than again I didnt play it, so I cant know for sure, maybe it works perfectly in game.

[@lukemuscat]

It definitely looks that way in the editor, and that was one of my big concerns as well. But once you are in game, it doesn't feel nearly as grid-y(?). One thing is that the spaces are actually way larger than they look in the editor, so even a 3x3 grid can take a solid 5 minutes to fully explore. But great observation and something I am mindful of as well!

[@marcellmichl8290]

@@lukemuscat Happy to hear that, and thanks for the reply! Looking forward to the future of this game.

[@cucumbergamer-970]

*inhales and outhales* i wish i could play fruit ninja

[@TitanLordofPizza]

Looking great.

[@kalebbeaumont]

Biomes would be so sick!

[@TheOneQuoz]

Hey I really want to start game development/design but I don’t know where to start so if you can give me some advice for starting, thx

[@Noobygamer_OCE]

hey love your content but how do i get feed the deep it has been wish listed for like a year