STS-51L - Launch Flight Directors Loop

STS-51L - Launch Flight Directors Loop
28th January 1986 - 16:38 GMT
This is coverage of the 51L countdown, from the T-9 minute point through the launch, accident and post accident period using just the available Flight Directors communication loop. The Orbiter Test Conductor (OTC) audio loop can also be heard on the flight director loop during the countdown. Hugh Harris' s countdown and Steve Nesbitt's PAO commentary after lift-off have been removed from the audio.
This audio has been put together from four different sources. Special thanks to Paolo Mangili for the viewing of his 51L video composition and use of the end part of this audio and also for the MOCR footage synch, which helped me place the footage in the right places and saved a huge amount of work.
Audio is not the best quality at first, but improves. OTC audio is approximated in the countdown because of overlaps in the original audio with the Hugh Harris commentary.
All video/audio is courtesy NASA

[@richardroberge411]

That morning I was flying a Boeing 727 out of Miami. Headed for La-Guardia Airport in New York. Instead of going up J-175 which takes us off-shore...We were vectored up central Florida and had a birds eye view of the Structural Break-Up of Shuttle Challenger, we were about 20 miles West of the Cape, Climbing through 28,000 feet. I had our HF / UHF radios tuned and we heard it happen!! The hard part was trying to tell the passengers, especially those who were sitting on the right side of the aircraft, what it was that they just saw. We couldn't believe it either!!!

[@nullname0]

Do you remember the airline?

[@gregv79]

Incredible story....mind blowing. Thanks for posting.

[@tatianaromonov1416]

wow amazing to hear that… glad you’re safe

[@conradsieber7883]

Challenger, Columbia and Apollo One accident reports showed similar if not identical problems including complacency about safety and Management's pressure to keep launch schedules trumping safety. Both challenger and columbia occured according to the investigations in cultures that did not place safety first.

[@josephweiss1559]

Management was the failure in each case.

[@julietteyork6293]

@@josephweiss1559 How was Apollo 1 the result of management failure?

[@moon-unit-zappa]

​@@julietteyork6293we're not going to write your report for you. Very clever though.

[@julietteyork6293]

@@moon-unit-zappa I graduated at the top of my doctoral program so save your projection, son. We know you’re the one who cheated off everyone else’s work in order to avoid flunking out. There’s no existing documentation indicating Apollo 1 was the result of institutional negligence or management failure. If anyone can find citations that state otherwise, post them. #Imbecile

[@rxw5520]

The shuttle had no escape option. It needed some method of escape like the Saturn rocket had, but it wasn’t possible with an airplane style orbiter. Altho mistakes in judgment were made, shit was bound to go wrong at least once. They were just so used to safe routine launches, even the press hounded them for launch delays. Nowadays could you imagine NBC headlines scolding nasa or spacex for a launch delay because of safety concerns? No chance. Because we have the benefit of hindsight, knowing that shit can and will go wrong in ways it hasn’t before. These won’t be anywhere near the last astronauts lost. We’ll continue to learn, and mentality will keep evolving.

[@lukestrawwalker]

I was halfway through my freshman year of high school. I'd skipped school that day to work in the field, hipping up the cotton fields to get a leg up on the spring field work. It was a gorgeous January day; a little brisk since we'd had the tail end of the cold front come through the Houston area overnight a day or two before, the same cold front that had plowed across the deep South and hit Cape Kennedy SO hard the night before the launch. It had come through without the usual rain we normally get with winter fronts so the fields were dry enough to work, kind of a rare occurrence that time of year. SO I took advantage of skipping the drudgery of school that day in favor of running a tractor all day. I was working just south of my parent's house around 11:30-12 when I saw the old dark blue '85 Ford F-150 pulled off on the side of the road, waiting on me. I finished my round and turned the tractor around, set the hipper down into the ground, and shut the tractor down, climbed down and hopped across the road ditch and walked up the embankment and got in the passenger side of the pickup. Dad had come down to pick me up for lunch; he'd worked his 12 hour night shift at the nuclear power plant the night before, came in and slept til lunchtime, and then picked me up to go to Grandma's house at the north end of the farm for lunch. When I got in the truck and he'd pulled on the road, we talked a bit about how it was going, and then he commented, "the shuttle blew up!" I was like, "oh, how did that happen?" because I didn't really believe it... I was a "space nerd" even back then, which he knew, and he wasn't, so I just figured he'd seen the boosters separate, with their forward-firing separation motors blowing a big plume around the shuttle when they separated, I figured he'd seen that on TV and *thought* it blew up, particularly with the boosters falling off afterwards. We got to Grandma's and she had her 19 inch color TV going in front of her chair next to the kitchen door, and sure enough it was all over the TV news... We grabbed our lunch and sat in front of the new 37 inch Philco in the living room, watching the coverage and endless news speculation and replays of the disaster, and the bios of the astronauts, guest 'experts' hired by the networks chiming in, space reporters, etc. We ate our lunch and then Dad was like "I have to get some more sleep before work tonight" and I needed to get back to the field, so I popped in a tape into my new Sears top-loader VCR that I had paid $350 for the previous fall on sale (because it was a close-out model-- back then top of the line VCR's were still $400-500 bucks-- and you could get a decent used car for that!) set it on slow speed and left it recording while I went back to the field. Later! OL J R :)

[@imagereader_9]

In our office was a young man who was deaf. He began to notice people gathering in groups talking with expressions that were a combination of confusion and saddness. He could sense something was wrong but had no idea what it might be. I happened to walk past his desk and he asks me 'what's going on?' I grabbed a sheet of paper and wrote "The space shuttle exploded during launch this morning'. The expression on his face was unforgettable.

[@manifestgtr]

I was just beyond a toddler when this happened. I remember my mom watching news footage of this at the laundromat and having no idea what it was but that it made everyone sad. One of my earliest memories on earth. Oddly, that’s how I’ll probably always remember it…this confusing, sad time early in my life. It’s crazy how things can make such a simple, lasting impression on you even after you learn so much about them.

[@azjtaylor]

I was in kindergarten and I remember watching the replays and Reagan's speech.

[@deedubya286]

I was home alone watching this live when it happened. It was back in the good old days of the large C-band satellite antennas and I had found the transponder carrying the direct NASA uplink feed. Since there was no TV network involved there was no one describing what was happening - just the NASA announcer. At first I couldn't tell what had happened, only that something had gone wrong. I remember jumping out of my chair, landing on my hands & knees in front of the television and screaming "what the f&ck was that!?" over and over. My first thought was that one of the main engines had exploded since it occurred right at throttle up. I'll never forget that sickening sight of the pieces fluttering down and landing in the water.

[@M_Lopez_3D_Artist]

Yeah, then once you find out the history behind it, it was the company cutting corners and NASA forcing there hand in going for this launch and the company wanting there lucrative contract because without that it would have gone under and be lost, you take it into all consideration i'd rather lose my company and money then people that i knew there was a major problem with it. Honestly both institutions were to blame.

[@ethanfairweather8736]

11:48 I really wonder what Gene Kranz was thinking at that moment. He was now part of senior management and was an observer in the control room.

[@TELEVISIONARCHIVES]

This was not the first time an SRB had leaked. They went with the odds that nothing would happen. Discovery had a leak as well but it didn't explode

[@peacethroughstrength172]

I recall when the head gentleman of the crew that shuts the hatch spoke on this years back. He felt so guilty and it followed him to his passing on earth about not being able to shut the hatch because of a simple, cheap screw. They had to abort and that night is when the freeze hit. He said that they had shut that hatch many times and for some reason on that day it faulted or else theyd still be alive. It bothered him tremendously and I understand his position but it will always be the engineers and NASA that own this one!

[@kyleparker733]

When all the dirty, 'little' secrets came out years later, it was just a matter of time before an incident of this magnitude was gonna happen

[@josephweiss1559]

It was stripped

[@mauricefrontz8570]

@@kerrysumners1333 myth

[@jasonaltham7013]

The engineers opposed the launch. It was the NASA managers that overruled in favor of launching.

[@jackdove4136]

The temperature on Jan 27th, was around 42-46 degrees F, it might have been the same result anyway.

[@RobertoSanchez-ck8cw]

Thank you for sharing this. The Shuttle program was my child hood.

[@RaAyAp]

After all these years it's still hard to watch. Thanks LM5!

[@piedpiper8355]

I was in 4th grade at the time and I remember being in class when another teacher stormed in to tell the news. To this day I don't know why we weren't watching. My science teacher in 2nd and 3rd grade was one of the candidates that didnt make the cut and her husband was director of Space Camp at the Space and Rocket Center at that time. What I didn't learn about spaceflight from my father I learned from her. At the end of 3rd grade we all knew the details of every Mercury, Gemini and Apollo missions. However, she did make the cut as an extra for the Space Camp movie.

[@glennjohnston2267]

I was 16 when this happened. Home from school that day because I was sick. Watched it happen live. And I cried my eyes out. 😭

[@tkerrig6269]

Same scenario except no school because of snow. Probably the most I've ever cried in my life.

[@hardakml]

I was in Germany travelling to FRA to pick up passengers from UK. I heard about the loss of the shuttle on the news and it plays continuously, like 911, for hours afterwards on every tv channel. The saddest day. Thanks LM5. I have a ton of viewing to catch up on but too busy processing astro pix these days.

[@kyled7969]

11:50 Seeing Gene Kranz's reaction is so heartbreaking.

[@musicmanfelipe]

Seeing Jay Greene immediately turn around after the “vehicle exploded” call. It’s almost like he’s saying, “Gene, what do I do here?” Also, Jay Greene never sat at the Flight console again after this.

[@campusman1957]

thats not gene kranz

[@campusman1957]

it was LeRoy Edward Cain

[@musicmanfelipe]

@@campusman1957 Leroy Cain was Flight for Columbia. Gene was on the console behind Jay Greene, as he was Mission Control Director at the time.

[@campusman1957]

@@musicmanfelipe u must be lookin at something else

[@jimbaritone6429]

I remember the launch of 51L, real-time live. It was right while we were having morning coffee, & discussing the program of plasma jet experiments for the day. We had all the available radio comms on in the lab, and soon after that the TV. Later, by one of those strange quirks, I was standing in a hotel lobby in Canmore, AB in Banff National Park, watching a big TV they had in the lobby, showing the re-entry of Columbia. I was watching while waiting for my niece's wedding to begin. I remember both vividly; I wish I could say I did not. Thank you LM5.

[@bertpunkaficionado8357]

I was at school in Kissimmee FL. We often went out to watch shuttles launch. We then wheeled in TVs to watch the news.

[@markboomgaarden4679]

The shots of the empty launch pad are just heartbreaking

[@PittsSZ]

One of the saddest days of my life. Glad you posted this, though, so we remember them. I was walking between classes at the University of Colorado when I overheard people talking about it. Ellison Onizuka was a CU graduate, and the college put up a nice memorial to Challenger later that year.

[@ku4uv]

I was an 11 year-old kid home from school on January 28, 1986 because of snow here in Kentucky. I have the downstairs TV turned on, but it's not tuned to one of the major networks. My older brother comes downstairs and says that the space shuttle just blew up. I then turned the TV to one of the major networks that was already into the breaking news coverage. I remember that day just like it happened yesterday. It still irritates me that none of the major networks like ABC, CBS, etc. carry the live coverage of the current manned space flights from KSC. There is nothing routine about launching human beings into space. Challenger should have taught us all that.

[@markboomgaarden4679]

I was 11 too and lived in Louisville when this happened. I wasn’t in school and I couldn’t remember why. Must have been the snow.

[@brianwong4175]

That morning, I woke up just in time to see the launch live on TV. Couldn’t believe what I was seeing and thought I was dreaming. Launches became so routine that only one local TV station in Los Angeles was broadcasting the launch live at the time. It seems that most people first saw the event in replay.

[@ArchernAce]

I was a kid watching them get on that morning and went to work. A few hours later one of my coworkers told me. I was sent home and I was sick for 3 days. I'm going to watch. I won't forget.

[@pjimmbojimmbo1990]

You were a kid, but you went to work?

[@ArchernAce]

@@pjimmbojimmbo1990 I was in my 20s. That's a kid.

[@pjimmbojimmbo1990]

@@ArchernAce Yet at the time, you thought you were a well seasoned Adult...

[@ArchernAce]

@@pjimmbojimmbo1990 it was a very bad day. I did go home to my mommy.

[@Zoomer30_]

The controllers probably relaxed a bit after liftoff because the working theory was that any issue with the joints would happen right at SRB ignition. The idea that a leak path could temporarily be sealed by burnt propellant but later start leaking again was not considered.

[@hoghogwild]

No one in that room had any idea of the SRB issues.

[@Zoomer30_]

@@hoghogwild I'm sure some of the manager types did. Gene Kranz was there, you know he knew there was a question about the launch in that weather.

[@joe92]

@@Zoomer30_ hoghorwild is correct, the operations community didn't know about the joint issues or the debate surrounding them.

[@normal_media]

and notice the area that failed was in the shadow of the sunlight and had they waited maybe another hour or two, that area might have warmed up enough to seal correctly.

[@lecursedturtle9385]

11:50 The man behind Jay Greene (Man in pink shirt) is Gene Kranz, NASA flight director since the late Gemini missions and throughout the Apollo missions before being mission operations director. This was the third time he witnessed a NASA disaster whilst still active. First was Apollo 1 (not sure if he was in mission control at the time of the actual fire), then Apollo 13, then Challenger STS-51L (this disaster).

[@anidolinteal3132]

(This is a joke, please don't take it seriously) He must be really, really bad luck if it happened three times.

[@LethalSaliva]

Dick Covey is wearing the pink shirt

[@Tim22222]

It's amazing to me how little chatter there is. I was living in London at the time & not at all aware of the launch, or even the teacher-in-space thing ... but I was closely following the exploits of Voyager, which had just reached Uranus. So when I saw the headline "SPACE SHIP EXPLODES" on the front page of the late edition Evening Standard someone was reading on the Underground I thought "Bummer! Something must have happened to Voyager." Then I noticed the subhead: "Crew of Seven Perish" 😢

[@ksracing8396]

This one will be hard for me - but I will still be there... I always felt so much for Jay Greene, who had not the slightest clue about anything that had been going on, and who was closer to this crew than normal.

[@lunarmodule5]

It was hard putting this one together... the audio is not the greatest quality but the poignancy without the NASA commentators made it worthwhile doing as a tribute to all at the LCC and MOCR, as well as the crew.

[@ksracing8396]

@@lunarmodule5 I don't know if you have ever seen some of the "clips" out of the MOCR which are sold by a commercial provider and go far beyond from the officially released video - that stuff is heartbraking. No link here - for reasons.

[@lunarmodule5]

@@ksracing8396 nope have never seen that footage

[@dougbadgley6031]

@@lunarmodule5 Mean either.

[@thetommoody]

@@ksracing8396 Dude you can't refer to these 'videos' now without providing a link!! Regardless of 'heartbreak,' they need to be shown...I'll ask you, are they more heartbreaking than watching LeRoy Cain crying in the White FCR when the full impact of Columbia settled in on him in 2003? C'Mon man...

[@andrewdutler9249]

That delayed response of “copy” at 11:38 when the flight director gets word that the vehicle exploded is so sad! I feel so sorry for all the staff but the flight director in particular. This had to have been very traumatic and followed them in their thoughts for the rest of their days, but kudos are due to them for the professionalism they displayed under the worst of circumstances.

[@trevorsimpkins3142]

This really destroyed Jay Greene. People put a lot of blame on him even though he was out of the loop as far as the launch decision against Thiokol's recommendations goes. He never returned to the control room after this.

[@StreetGang2017]

Took an early lunch that day to watch this live.Heartbreaking to say the least.Thank you for this video LM5

[@dsampley]

I was at work discussing where we would want to go to lunch. Someone walked in and said the shuttle blew up. I laughed at them and said that is a good joke. Turned on radio and found this was true, I can still remember setting in the office and listening to the news, the other people in the room.

[@pauld6967]

The previous day was to be the launch but it was scrubbed. I was at KSC with my family & nephews. The next day we were at EPCOT and just finished lunch. One of my nephews pointed up and having seen launches since Apollo, I knew things had gone tragically wrong. I kept that to myself for the rest of the day to not spoil anyone's fun. Everyone else learned of it from the evening news.

[@hawkdsl]

I was returning for lunch, and everyone was in the break room watching the TV. Funny how one can remember every detail in a moment like that. I remember where everyone was sitting, what cloths they wore.. how "neutral" the room temp was. I went to Safeway to get a Stoffers Spaghetti and meat sauce entree to heat up in the micro.. I never ate it. After about an hour, the Boss came in, and let us all go home (it was small biz). The next day, there was a make shift flag poll out front flying the Stars and Stripes.. and it had 7 yellow ribbons tied in the middle. I can't remember anything about that year after that.

[@pauld6967]

@@hawkdsl For us, this moment was what my sisters had with the "where were you when Kennedy was assassinated?" moment. Of course we also have our "where were you on September 11th, 2001" moment as well.

[@maxmulsanne7054]

Too young for JFK's assassination... so for me it was this**, some of Los Angeles Riots (1992), the Branch Davidian compound destroyed in Waco, TX (April 1993) and 9/11. ** Denotes I did not watch on Live TV. Oh yeah, forgot that I did watch on TV OJ Simpson/White Bronco procession in Los Angeles in 1994.

[@Pestcontrol-ho9vf]

I remember learning about this at about the age of 4 back in 2015. When I learned of it I didn’t understand how much of a tragedy it was. Now, I do, I’ve watched a documentary, and have read many books about it.

[@pjimmbojimmbo1990]

I was at work, and had arrived at one of the locations, I went inside and asked if it had launched, I was told it had blown up. There was a TV in the lunch room, so I watched the replays for a bit, then resumed work. I then went home to turn on the VCR to CNN and then returned to work, I still have that Tape.

[@kevinmcgovern5110]

Quick kudos to you, LM5: the voice and PIP sync is nothing short of outstanding! I have a basic idea of how to do it but my audio/video rig consists solely of an iPhone 6S… Even with better equipment, your attention to detail is astounding!

[@lunarmodule5]

Thanks Kevin

[@JPMadden]

I was in 10th grade and had stayed home because I was ill. I was in bed when someone called my mother and told her about this. I might have watched it live if I had been feeling better. I'm glad I didn't see it live.

[@silversurfer66_]

rest in peace all the lost aviators and astrounats

[@kieraingeaney6437]

This one will be hard but will still watch

[@gregv79]

The split screen of mission control and their reactions is chilling. I find myself still holding my breath during the entire 90 seconds or so of flight. Was working in a law firm on the 86th floor of Sears Tower at the time... everyone ran to conference room tv's.....no one could believe it. I guess that in itself shows how "routine" we all had all come to consider space flight. Not used to seeing LM5 do shuttle flights but thanks for the upload 👍

[@Zoomer30_]

I stopped watching the launches live after the RSLS abort of 41-D. It really spooked me, even as a kid.

[@dks13827]

For a few days after this my 3 year old daughter was asking me.... why are you crying, Daddy ???

[@Theineluctable_SOME_CANT]

I was 22 y.o. living in Mackay, Queensland Australia and heard it from my flatmate when they got home. Shocked. Also, Chernobyl. Bad year...

[@HockeyMetalRPG]

I was a 15 year old High School Soph. in French Class when this happened. I heard a lot of commotion in the hallway and didn't know what happened until class was over and I was on my way to lunch. That's all we talked about the rest of the day in all my classes.

[@BudSchnelker]

I was a freshman who had the day off because it was Regents exam week in NYS and I didn't have a test. Watched it live on CNN at home. My expression was no different than the men at flight control. It took a minute to process that my eyes hadn't deceived me.

[@tomandsamuel]

The thing that makes it more heartbreaking for Jay Greene and his team is that they had absolutely no idea of what had happened to cause the breakup. I’m not sure if Greene had been made away of the issues and meetings about the SRB O-ring issue so maybe had some idea of what may have occurred? I dawned on me when I watched his press conference that all telemetry and data seemed normal and then all of a sudden……..he must have had so many questions in his head

[@ksracing8396]

He had absolutely no clue about all the discussions that had been going on the night before between Marshall, KSC and Thiokol. None of this found its way to JSC. And he still didn't know anything about it the next day when he had to do the press conference.

[@jackdove4136]

13:09 was time of crew module impact.

[@HailAnts]

For those curious: The reason that they said, _"RSO reports vehicle exploded"_ is because the RSO is the Range Safety Officer. It was his job to send the signal to the SRBs to self-destruct in a case like this (they continued flying and could have impacted the ground). There are even self-destruct charges on the External Tank and the Orbiter itself just in case. And that parachute was not a paramedic, it was one of the SRB nose cones who's chute had deployed. And it wasn't until about ten years later that I realized that legendary FC Gene Kranz was right there when it happened..

[@nutsackmania]

Fairly certain there was not one in the orbiter itself--it wouldn't even really make a lot of sense since the main concern is a rocket body full of fuel coming down on a populated area. If you have a source I'd appreciate it!

[@HailAnts]

@@nutsackmania - You may be right. Although there could be a case of the re-entering Shuttle going out of control, especially if the crew bailed out. But that would mean that the charges would have to remain active for the whole flight, and I don't think that was the case. I think you're right. I know there was a line of charges along the External Tank for self-destruction, even with the orbiter still attached if something went wrong during the boost phase. But after that I don't think the orbiter had the capability to self-destruct..

[@tonamg53]

@@nutsackmania The shuttle does carry around 10 tonnes of hydrazine and hypergolic fuel for its OMS engine and RCS thrusters The real nasty stuff…

[@joe92]

@@nutsackmania That's correct, the Orbiter itself did not have destruct ordnance onboard.

[@Tmccreight25Gaming]

The Orbiter never had RSO charges

[@NotBrutality-101]

Excellent work to the creator on reminding people of this catastrophe. I was only four days old. As I aged, and learned of the tragedy and oversights, due to pressure from upper management, it was one of my many reminders of safety. This unnecessary tragedy had been an example and golden rule throughout my construction career, no matter the job. Whether building a school, hospital, bank, power plant, roof or U.S. submarine, they’ve all gotten the same amount of attention to detail with safety of our crew and the end user always remaining paramount. God bless these senseless victims and families effected by valueless, bottom line, spineless corporate humans.

[@marmaly]

I was at work and watched live on a 2 inch Sony Watchman. Seemed obvious at the time that cold weather must have played a role. Also obvious was that the crew likely survived until they hit the water. Very surreal day.

[@dks13827]

Flight Jay Greene never did a flight director mission again, ever.

[@djbeezy]

I've heard this before but never this clear. How did you get such good quality?

[@Gort58]

Thanks for putting this together Simon. Great job in synchronising available video with the audio. Whilst the transcript of the onboard audio was made available during the Rogers Commission, I'm wondering why the actual recording has never been released.

[@lunarmodule5]

Hi gort...If I recall correctly, the families asked it not to be released at the time. I could be wrong

[@wrightmf]

Same reason why those last moments of Apollo 1 fire not released, it's that kind of thing not to be released.

[@lunarmodule5]

@@wrightmf the Apollo 1 audio has been released including the moment of the fire

[@wrightmf]

@@lunarmodule5 except not the last moments when crew was dying

[@spparodi]

I was In sixth grade when this happened. When news report would eventually show transcripts that the last words were “uh-oh!” My curious adhd mind started to wonder and ask questions pertaining to the flight data and the voice data. Flight data has everything down to the millisecond. I have always wondered at what point exactly the last words were uttered, since that data is strictly by the whole number in seconds. Was it during the flash that appeared on his windscreen, during breakup? It is morbid, I know and I sincerely apologize to anyone I may or will offend in asking such a question. My hope is that they all remained unconscious although the evidence tells a horrible story on its own😞

[@oldcarnocar]

Rest in peace,brave crew of Challenger

[@pjimmbojimmbo1990]

@11:48 Gene Kranz was standing in the back row. He is seen several times on this clip. He hasn't said much about this incident in his book or in interviews

[@silversurfer66_]

shuttle always looked like it hung on for dear life

[@Slugg-O]

I had a trainee with me that morning and we were making service calls around town when a DJ on the radio using his pleasant, upbeat DJ voice said something happened during the launch that knocked the shuttle off course, and then returned to his music playlist as if it was no big deal. I thought that was an odd statement to make with no follow up and wondered WTH could knock it if course, and if that meant a ATL or did they end up in a different orbit. We stopped to drop off some equipment and when we got back in the van the radio was much different. The trainee and I just looked at each other without saying a word. We knew the crew did not survive. But I'm an optimist and believed NASA probably had 100 contingency plans for this and there was still a slight possibility some of the crew survived and, that NASA being the super powerful NASA that I hoped they were, would have them out of the water dead or alive in 30 minutes. No. It took 6 friggin weeks and my respect for NASA went in the sewer. For 6 weeks the families waited while fish consumed their loved ones. I realize the scope of this search was beyond their reach but found it hard to believe there were no tracking or EPERB devices bolted to the seats to aid in recovery, as if the thought of a water landing had never been considered. Maybe the slide rule jockeys worked the numbers and decided such an event would not be survivable and therefore not wot worth the extra weight or expense. IIRC, I think I read later that the cabin had been located much earlier but the recovery was delayed for reasons I can't recall, or maybe it was just water cooler gossip. It doesn't matter now and I still think NASA sucks. They went political and ignored science and the advice from engineers who begged them not to launch. Let me be clear on this final thought: My lack of respect for NASA rests with the Administration. I have great respect for the launch crew and everyone in the MOCR. They were handed a turd sandwich that morning.

[@lukestrawwalker]

Yeah I read about the search for the crew cabin... it took them a LONG time to find it... I read the account of the diver that found it. He had been criss-crossing the seafloor looking for it, as had other teams since the disaster, without luck. When he found it the first thing he saw was a pair of space suit legs sticking out of the shattered wall of the cabin... He thought it was an astronaut, but it was only the empty EVA pressure suit-- back then the astronauts flew basically in a "motorcycle suit"-- not a pressure suit, just a glorified motorcycle helmet capable of feeding them some oxygen if needed (and activated) and a "flight jumpsuit" about like a jet pilot would wear... The "pumpkin suits" which were pressure suits and stuff didn't come about til AFTER Challenger. The shuttle was *supposed* to be "the safest spacecraft ever built", and since NASA had never needed the escape towers or ejection seats built into the Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo spacecraft, so they decided (and the weight of the shuttle and design compromises dictated) that they didn't need any escape capability-- they had ejection seats on the first four flights, but that limited them to four astronauts on a shuttle, and the flight regimes they could be used in were quite limited, and their weight cut deeply into the cargo capability of the shuttle, so they ditched them after the fourth flight when the shuttle was declared 'operational' (which was a strictly "program" decision-- the shuttle never would truly be an "operational" system in the "airliner" sense of the word-- it was ALWAYS going to be an "experimental" type system due to it's complexity and technical brittleness). Why they didn't even wear pressure suits for ascent or reentry... The shuttle was headed for disaster sooner or later anyway-- they'd already had near misses-- both with foam strikes (which would ultimately destroy Columbia) and with burn-throughs of the SRB casings due to failed O-ring seals on prior flights (the coldest of which had been flown at 53 degrees; it was estimated the temperature of the aft field joint on the RH SRB on Challenger was 27 degrees at liftoff that morning!) Challenger got a lot of things reconsidered or canceled-- including "Shuttle Centaur" which would have placed a dual-engine liquid hydrogen/liquid oxygen powered Centaur rocket stage inside the payload bay of shuttles for satellites headed for geosynchronous orbit or outer planet probes (like Galileo to Jupiter). Shuttle Centaur had always been a very big question mark for safety-- hydrogen is notoriously prone to leaking, creates "liquid air" on any non-vacuum shielded propellant piping, which being 21% liquid oxygen is highly flammable/explosive, and a fully fueled Centaur was SO heavy that a shuttle COULD NOT perform even the risky RTLS abort with it aboard-- the orbiter was too heavy to land with the Centaur fully fueled, so a complex fuel-dump procedure to empty Centaur's fuel during the RTLS abort BEFORE landing, so the shuttle would be light enough to land with empty tanks, was added to the already complex procedures that relied on EVERYTHING going perfectly for an RTLS abort to ever work right in the first place. Gone too were the Shuttle launches out of Vandenberg from the billion-dollar plus SLC-6 launch complex, which would have had shuttles flying Air Force missions into polar orbit launched from Vandenberg. IIRC the next flight after Challenger was supposed to have been the first polar AF launch... As it turned out, the crew cabin was SO structurally shattered that the only thing holding it together was the network of wiring criss-crossing the structure of it under the shuttle's outer skin. Some of the remains of the astronauts were inside, but there wasn't much left-- they'd hit the ocean in the mostly intact crew cabin (which was built strong due to having to contain the pressurized atmosphere for the astronauts in orbit) at about 250 mph-- FAR too fast to be survivable, even though it's thought at least some of the crew had survived the breakup and depressurization and the long fall back to the ocean below in the tumbling cabin. It was all such a shame, and needless, and what was sad was NASA had forgotten the lessons of Apollo 1 19 years earlier, as they'd forget those lessons AGAIN with the loss of Columbia 17 years later in 2003. Putting program goals and schedules ahead of safety was the root cause of all three disasters. Later! OL J R : )

[@Slugg-O]

@@lukestrawwalker Thank you very much for the detailed reply. There's a video with Story Musgrave in here somewhere, you've probably seen it, where he states very clearly that the crew survived the initial break up. When the interviewer asked, "You think so?" Story replied, "We know so. They died when they hit the water. We have hard evidence." He never said how he knew but his tone and facial expression strongly implied there was evidence beyond the discovery of the emergency O2 packs being turned on. After all these years it still sickens me to know that the crew waited 2 minutes 45 horrifying seconds, knowing they were going to die on impact, when it could have been prevented if NASA hadn't gotten a bug up their ass to please the politicians. Yes, NASA knew about the O rings and IMO that makes it worse. The accident without question 100% preventable, and I don't even like to refer to it as an accident. Negligent Homicide would be more appropriate. They had cold weather data and MTk engineers telling them to stop and they ignored all of it. I've been a space nerd since Apollo and understand that loss of life can and will happen as long as we continue to explore the heavens, and I know every astronaut understands that risk far better than I ever could, but to lose a crew because of arrogance, ego, or political pressure is unforgivable. Stick the Administrators in a rocket when it's 27 degrees and lets see how long it takes them to scrub the launch. Those bastards ignored every warning and willingly, forcefully pushed the launch and killed an entire crew. Sorry I went off on a rant. I have tremendous respect for every astronaut - just not for the NASA admins.

[@lukestrawwalker]

@@Slugg-O True, true! Yes I've seen that interview. Heartbreaking. What's the most irritating to me is that NASA always 'dumbed it down' and refused to admit that they were alive during the fall back into the ocean... While I understand "propriety" and being respectful of the families' feelings, at the same time I always interpreted it as a "cop out" to make it all seem less grim to the public, and to save their own appearance in the court of public opinion. It was good that Story Musgrave had the guts to actually lay it out as it played out, albeit years later, to "tell the truth" about what happened, to own up to it. It's a good thing that Neil Armstrong and Sally Ride were on the Rogers Commission investigating the disaster (you're absolutely right it was NO accident, just a result of flawed and faulty decision making and misplaced priorities-- while it might have been "right" according to the flowchart and the rules, it was obviously dead wrong, and people as smart as NASA employs should have known that, but "willful ignorance" and putting pressure on people to "take off their engineer hats and put on their management hat" will lead to the kind of moral cowardice and headlong plunging ahead regardless of the possible consequences that leads to stuff like Challenger, Columbia, and even Apollo 1). Had they not been there, along with renowned physicist Richard Feynman, and but for the courage of engineers like Roger Boisjoly, I think the Rogers Commission would have done exactly what the politicians and managers hoped it would do-- whitewash the whole thing for Congress and the public. What's really sickening is, NASA ALLOWED it to happen again with Columbia-- just as the O-rings were a well known problem, and corrections were "in the pipeline" even when the disaster occurred (Challenger) they CHOSE to fly ANYWAY, and didn't even take "extra precautions" until the "fix" was available... No, they gambled with people's lives, and LOST... Similarly the foam strike problems had been a problem for a VERY long time by the time of Columbia; several shuttles had returned with varying levels of damage to the heat shield tiles from foam strikes, one even came back with a hole burned through the aluminum belly of the orbiter, fortunately for that crew in an area where nothing critical structural or system-wise was behind the skin to be burned through (like wiring or hydraulics)... Still NASA continued to gamble with people's lives, and LOST AGAIN. I'm a farmer (and space nerd and have studied everything I can get my hands on regarding space history for the last 25-30 years) and being in one of the most dangerous professions out there (farmers have a rate of injury and death second only to miners and cops) I've managed to keep all ten fingers and toes because I RESPECT the dangers I work with, and don't take DUMB chances... Risk is part of the game for sure, but there's a BIG difference between RISK and taking DUMB chances... go to any farm show you'll see enough amputees walking around to wonder if you're at an amputee convention-- and those are the "lucky ones" that managed to only get maimed for life by whatever "got them"-- the dead ones aren't there because they're in the graveyard, and there's plenty of them. You're right, that risk of losing people in space exploration is DEFINITELY *ALWAYS* going to be there... the simple physics and hostile environment of space make it so, BUT given the complexity and dangers, it's irresponsible NOT to retire or mitigate as many risks as possible... the biggest threat should always be the "unknown unknowns", not p!ss poor vehicle design and worse management... Later! OL J R :)

[@Slugg-O]

@@lukestrawwalker 100% with you on every word!

[@LTV_inc]

So I can bet none of you have ever worked as an engineer or designed any flying machine. Mistakes were made it’s the most complicated flying machine ever made. Engineers make mistakes, so do you. I probably fired whole departments of meatheads like you. STFU!

[@normal_media]

16:15 just looking at that and knowing there are 7 people out there somewhere probably stuggling to survive.

[@SeligTiles]

Where can the original mocr footage be found please? I’ve seen it before…..

[@EmceeCh4p]

Not gonna lie, 1:47 was pretty bone-chilling watching her name disappear for the final time

[@lunarmodule5]

Poignant thoughts thank you

[@davegoodridge8352]

I’ll always remember this day. When the need to hurry caused the destruction of 7 lives. And I’ve always wondered why no one was punished.

[@ksracing8396]

Because it's a very complex scenario that actually developed over years and even the probably most responsible people in the end, Lawrence Mulloy and William Lucas from Marshall, formally did not do anything breaking the rules - they had the written okay from Thiokol to launch.

[@lukestrawwalker]

Bureaucracy.... "Everybody is responsible, so NOBODY is responsible..." Later! OL J R :)

[@scleeb]

I watched this live in my 6th grade social studies class

[@giuliodondi]

The original MOCR footage used to be on KZbin a couple of years back, but has since disappeared. Has anyone saved the link?

[@kspencerian]

Great, although sombering view of what the MOCR team endured. We, the public were sobbing. They didn't have the luxury and had to work it. Something others may not realize: At this point, Gene Kranz (of Apollo 13 fame) is now the Director of Flight Operations (taking Chris Kraft's spot) and he witnessed this mission fail in the MOCR. I should read his oral history on this event.

[@liden77]

He is seen a couple of times in the video, sitting on the row above the capcom, poor guy, lost another crew

[@ksracing8396]

Kranz was actually Head of the Mission Operations Directorate at the time, while George Abbey was Head of Flight Crew Operations. That was how Gerry Griffin structured JSC at the beginning of 1983, after taking over as Center Director from Kraft, who had more or less been fired by Administrator James Beggs in 1982. Before, since 1978, there was only one Directorate, which included Flight Operations an Flight Crew Operations, under the name of Flight Operations, headed by Abbey, with Kranz working as his deputy.

[@kspencerian]

@@ksracing8396 Thanks for that clarification.

[@josiahclinch6219]

thank you. will you post the nasa tv feed of the scub & the Bad DAY? also are there going be the loops of Apollo 1 or STS-107?

[@lunarmodule5]

Hi Josiah. I have posted the NASA feed on the channel a few years back. The scrub is available on KZbin on another channel. Apollo 1 audio is also available on KZbin. I posted a video which covered the STS-107 accident in real time. There will be a few more 51L videos today and tomorrow. Hope that helps regards LM5

[@josiahclinch6219]

@@lunarmodule5 what are the links?

[@lunarmodule5]

@@josiahclinch6219 hi Josiah.. probably easier for you to go to the channel main page and search "STS-51L" or "STS-107" and see what you find?

[@josiahclinch6219]

@@lunarmodule5 i didn't mean yours. THOSE ARE EASY to find. but the full Nasa tv of the scrub is HARD TO FIND I HAVE LOOKED. that same channel that has the scrub also has the bad day. if you know what channel has please send the info so i can put a like. lm5 you and the others do a sevice i wish the nasa channel would do.

[@chaspfrank]

I never realized Gene Krantz was in the room when this happened!

[@TheoryAug]

I never realized that I honestly have no idea who Gene Krantz even is

[@maxmulsanne7054]

​@@TheoryAug Aerospace engineer who served as NASA's second Chief Flight Director, directing missions of the Mercury, Gemini and Apollo programs, including the first lunar landing mission, Apollo 11.

[@TheoryAug]

@@maxmulsanne7054 thank for educating me and being kind about it 🙂

[@foxmccloud7055]

I dread to think of the possibility of something like this occurring with the launch of Artemis I.

[@trevorsimpkins3142]

At least with Artemis, there is a launch escape system to pull Orion away in case of a failure. The shuttle had no abort modes during the first 2 minutes.

[@user-so4re9le7k]

Fred Gregory's reactions are always so poignant in these MCC clips: 12:31 15:32

[@robbhahn8897]

Anybody else looking for the tell-tale black puffs of smoke coming from the right failed SRB aft field joint at ignition? I think you can start to see the burn-through plume at about 9:51

[@liden77]

The initial burn-trough of the field joint as the cold rubber o-rings failed to seal it, a peace of molten aluminum from the srb fuel sealed the gap right after start, which held together until the shuttle was hit by a crosswing at ~60s, that caused the plug to dislodge, and the flame started burning through the lower strut on the external tank.

[@liden77]

O-ring problems was known to thiokol and nasa before challenger, post-flight inspection has shown that at on at least a couple of previous flights the inner (of two) rings was partially burned through, something that should not happen. The problem of faulty field joints was not considered critical, so it was not a priority to resolve.

[@yassm]

always very sad listening to this loop 😔

[@timothylampel815]

I feel like that parachute gave them some false hope for a second but I’m not sure if they even wore parachutes back then.

[@lunarmodule5]

Some originally thought it was a paramedic parachuting into the area...but, in fact, it was a SRB frustum with deployed parachute. Certainly everyone in mission control knew it was not anything crew or orbiter related etc

[@kevinbaker2054]

We have heard the voice recordings for Apollo 1. When are they going to release the recording for 51L? Ive seen transcripts ...

[@mikechapmanmedia2291]

There were no recordings on the vehicle after the explosion, with the loss of power. The conversations until that point have long-since been released.

[@kevinbaker2054]

@@mikechapmanmedia2291 understand. Im talking about the ACTUAL recording prior to loss of vehicle. Not talking about the transcripts. They were recorded prior to the breakup of the vehicle

[@mikechapmanmedia2291]

@@kevinbaker2054 Doubt you’ll ever hear them. Challenger is still a sore subject. I’m surprised that the Apollo 1 recordings were ever released.

[@trevorsimpkins3142]

Pretty sure the Apollo 1 recordings you and I both have heard were not internal recordings but were transmitted on the air to ground radio and recorded that way. The on board recorder, if it was even activated, used a reel to reel magnetic tape that never would've survived the fire. Challengers on board recordings will likely never be released or at least not until all the surviving immediate family has passed away.

[@saladbreath607]

We have to be prepared for more tragedies as crewed missions ramp up. 1967, 1971, 1986, 2003...

[@pjimmbojimmbo1990]

17 yrs after Apollo 1 and the communications are still garbled. To misquote Grissom 'I can't understand a word they're saying'

[@tomandsamuel]

Does anyone know what the parachute was at 18:15? I’ve heard that it was bits of the SRB and then that it was a paramedic jumping into the sea? I don’t know why they would do this due to all the debris falling, presence of the hazardous OMS fuel and not actually knowing where they would be needed? Anyone have any definitive info?

[@joe92]

It was an SRB frustum. Like the rest of the SRB those were intended to be recovered.

[@liden77]

The parachute was part of the srb:s, which was destroyed by the range safety officer

[@frankroberts9320]

I vividly remember watching the ABC coverage when the parachute appeared on screen. Lynn Sherr, ABC's 'Science Correspondent' shrieked excitedly "It's the escape capsule! It's the escape capsule!" Not her finest moment. And then there was the time a couple of years earlier when she was interviewing Bob Crippen on Nightline. Scientists had just discovered evidence of the first exoplanets orbiting a star several light years away and ABC wanted to get comment from a NASA astronaut about it. One of the first questions out of her mouth, on live TV mind you, was "Why doesn't NASA just take the Space Shuttle up, go over there and check it out?" The look on Captain Crippen's face was priceless. He was doing just fine until she doubled down and asked the question again. I thought he was going to bite through his lower lip to keep from laughing out loud.

[@KC2MFCs]

Is there any chance that something like this for Gemini 8, Apollo 1, STS-51F, or STS-93? Houston's MOCR is a real crucible in Emergency Crisis Management that all companies would do well to learn and follow from.

[@hoghogwild]

There's an excellent STS-93 CHANDRA video, shuttles heaviest payload.

[@youravaragejoe5102]

*Ad astra per aspera. Semper exploro.*

[@jadams1722]

*Never go for throttle up when you have cold o-rings…*

[@kyleparker733]

It was already on the verge of exploding b4 throttle up. It was gonna explode even without throttle up

[@user-so4re9le7k]

"Throttle up" had NOTHING to do with this.

[@TheoryAug]

​@@user-so4re9le7kummm...do you even know what you're talking about??? It did very much have something to do with it

[@josephg3231]

I wonder if the Houston flight controllers were aware of the Thiokol conference from the night before

[@ksracing8396]

No, they were not. No word at all about all the discussions ever made their way back to JSC. Even Arnie Aldrich, the Shuttle Program Manager, who was actually at the Cape, was not informed about it. The Marshall people didn't tell him and Allan McDonald, who was the Thiokol representative at the Cape, didn't either - because he didn't want to jump hierarchy and also believed the others would do it anyway.

[@jason66801]

I was in the 5th grade sitting in the gym watching it with my class

[@MattWinacott]

RIP

[@autismisfine4984]

I'd have hated to be in Richard Coveys seat.

[@user-so4re9le7k]

Both he and Fred Gregory (the guy next to him in the main CAPCOM seat) lost four of their '78 classmates in this disaster (McNair, Onizuka, Resnik and Scobee).

[@foxmccloud7055]

Coincidentally, the Challenger Accident occurred on the same day that Neil Armstrong's daughter Karen Armstrong died (January 28th, 1962).

[@Starship6277]

Is this going to be real time because I checked and STS-51L launched 11:38am EST? Rip Apollo 1, Challenger, and Colombia crew.

[@lunarmodule5]

Yes as realtime as I can get it

[@rickardandreasson5095]

I wonder from an engineering stand point, what exactly was changed in the SRB Oring design after this accident? How was it changed so those Orings wouldnt fail again

[@terrencemitchell4268]

They redesigned the segment joint. The new design was a "captive joint".

[@rickardandreasson5095]

@@terrencemitchell4268 Thank you. I just recently found a video explaining that in detail. Thankfully those boosters never failed again.

[@stormsfromcalifornia4379]

a launch that never should've happened

[@liden77]

I believe John Young always considered the space shuttle as experimental

[@lukestrawwalker]

@@liden77 Yes... I read an account somewhere that one of the original ideas for STS-1 in 1981 was to do an RTLS abort, after the SRB's burn out, the shuttle would do a 'backflip' and head back toward the Cape, to overcome most of their downrange velocity and get headed back west toward Florida, then shut down the SSME's and jettison the ET with the remaining fuel, and glide back into a runway landing at KSC. Young scuttled that idea post-haste, saying that the shuttle's abort procedures were "risking death to avoid certain death". (IIRC similar comments had been made about using the Gemini ejection seats). Later! OL J R :)

[@hoghogwild]

@@lukestrawwalker The Gemini seats were perfectly safe. And the shuttle Abort RTLS was perfectly manageable. It got tricky with engine outs.

[@lukestrawwalker]

@@hoghogwild lol that's NOT the opinion of the astronauts...

[@DavianSinner]

What's under the parachute? I don't remember ever seeing that.

[@lunarmodule5]

The frustum from one of the SRBs

[@Rectifythesitch]

19:54 EECOM R John Rector

[@JimMac23]

The space shuttle program was an expensive failure that killed 14 people.

[@dash9655]

What is parachuting at 18:00

[@lunarmodule5]

its a SRB frustrum parachute

[@dash9655]

@@lunarmodule5 thanks, I was unaware of that mechanism!

[@campusman1957]

I didn’t have my glass on

[@josephweiss1559]

Parachute from boosters

[@hubbsllc]

12:52 Is that Kranz?

[@lunarmodule5]

Yes

[@sidv4615]

what's that yellow structure at 3:09 ? does it have something to do with Shuttle-Centaur? edit : 10:55 FIDO says "Flight, FIDO, till we get stuff back he's on his cue card for abort modes." who's the he FIDO is refereeing to here? whos on his cue cards for abort modes?

[@lunarmodule5]

I know what the answer is to the second part of the question - FIDO is referring to the CDR and PLT - the downlink is gone (the "stuff") so they are out of communication. In "normal" abort modes the crew would automatically go to the cue cards for abort modes which they had in front of them. Because the FIDO can see no communication link he is assuming the orbiter and crew might still be intact and that he would go to the cue cards. Does that help?

[@joe92]

The FIDO is the flight dynamics officer. The position's responsibilities vary by mission phase but for ascent he is responsible for monitoring the trajectory, determining what abort modes are available at any given moment. That's a pretty simplified job description.

[@sidv4615]

@@joe92 even during entry, FIDO is responsible for making sure the shuttle has the right amount of energy and stuff for landing.

[@wez492]

Kinda unrelated: I'll never forget where I was, what I was doing when I witnessed 9/11 unfold. Challenger was before my time but I can only imagine

[@lunarmodule5]

I think we all remember where we were when major world events occurred...when Challenger exploded I was I bed with flu ...9/11 I was working and heard it on the radio....Columbia I was listening to the NASA audio on the net

[@julietteyork6293]

I was in NYC on 9/11 because I was caring for my sister after she had surgery.

[@Nine-Signs]

It was hubris that brought down challenger. It was a failure to learn from history resulting in yet more hubris that brought down Columbia, and sealed this vehicles fate as the most deadly spacecraft ever put to flight in history. I for one am glad it retired.

[@lukestrawwalker]

Yes... As a kid (I was 10 when the shuttle first flew) I was excited as anybody about the shuttle, but the more I've learned about it over the years, the more glad I was when the final flight was made and the thing was retired... only about 15 years too late IMHO. Honestly I think it should have been retired and replaced after Challenger-- by that point it was patently obvious that the thing was NEVER going to be the "cheap, easy, safe 'airliner to space'" that NASA had sold it to both the Congress and the public as, and never would be. It was ALWAYS going to be an unsafe, experimental vehicle with NO realistic escape prospects for its crews, inherently limited and hobbled by bad design compromises made in its design and construction to satisfy ridiculous Air Force "requirements" that in the end all turned out to be completely irrelevant and never flown. Later! OL J R :)

[@Nine-Signs]

@@lukestrawwalker Good comment friend, it's comments like that which make me wish to god the cold war had never happened as the shuttle could have been a decent vehicle, ironically the soviets Buran proved that. People often think it was a soviet copy but it was a very different vehicle in reality, the shape was a formality of aerodynamics. It could land itself unlike the shuttle, it had powered flight unlike the shuttle, it could carry a larger cargo, and the entire habitation section was also a failsafe lifeboat that would eject the crew to safety via rocket bolts + parachutes should a serious fault occur during takeoff or re-entry mode. ^ I am fairly certain plenty of engineers wanted to do likewise to the US shuttle designs, but under capitalism you pay as much as possible for as little in return as the contractor can get away with, in the soviet union they didn't have money to burn, but they had vocation, duty, and love for their work and that is how they consistently managed to get more for their money. If only both sides could have worked together and pooled their brains and resources. We could have been on Mars by now. Instead we waste 2 trillion a year right now, pointing guns at each other while the world burns, as if physics gives a damn for our folly. A bit more soviet engineering trivia for you, the engines on the bottom of NASA's largest heavy lift rockets, the type that lofted the double decker bus sized mars probe into space a little while back before it landed. They are not American rocket engines. They are a 60 year old soviet design on license from Russia since circa 2000 when they were first brought over for NASA to get a look at. Despite the age of the design they are still the most powerful and yet fuel efficient multi coned rocket engines ever built. When first brought to the states and tested next to NASA's best at the time, they were 400% more efficient. Something to remember next time Hollywood portrays ruskies as some backwards culture. I would never poke that particular bear.

[@lukestrawwalker]

continued... While the Air Force dreamed of stupid stuff like flying their own 'blue suiter" astronauts up to sabotage Soviet spysats by spray painting over their lenses or carefully inspecting them to determine their capabilities, or even capturing them into the payload bay and bringing them back to Earth, effectively stealing them from orbit, (which of course would have cause the Soviets to do the same to our satellites or just blow them out of the sky, escalating the Cold War immeasurably), the Soviets realized that what NASA was saying about the shuttle didn't add up. Even those "in the know" in the space industry questioned NASA's wildly optimistic assumptions about flight rates, refurbishment costs, flight turnaround times, and launch demand that NASA was using to justify and "sell" the shuttle... effectively using "cooked numbers" like the now infamous "Mathematica study" that was used to justify shuttle. While NASA dreamed of flight rates of 70 per year, later pared down to merely 50 and then finally to about 25 as reality slowly set in (and ulimately the best they would ever do was 9 in 12 months preceding Challenger, and we know how that ended up). The Soviets smelled a rat, and ordered the head of the Soviet Academy of Sciences, Mstyslav Keldysh, to determine why the US was REALLY building the shuttle, since it was obvious the "cost savings" and "high flight rates" and all were based on bogus assumptions... After studying the problem, he came back to the Presidium with an alarming conclusion-- the Air Force launched shuttles flying out of Vandenberg AFB in California, launching south over the South Pole, could approach the western Soviet Union about 45 minutes after launch FROM THE SOUTH, away from all their early warning radars and missile detection defense apparatus, open its payload bay and disgorge a massive number of hypersonic reentry vehicles with hydrogen bombs, and devastate the main population and industrial centers of the Soviet Union in a devastating first strike, before reentering over the North Pole, and flying back down to a landing at Edwards AFB in California 90 minutes after launch, completing its single orbit. THAT is when the Soviets decided to build their own shuttle, not out of any belief in the efficacy or necessity of a reusable space plane, but out of a need to maintain strategic parity of capabilities in the Cold War! Vasili Mishin, who had inherited the reins of the old OKB-1 design bureau of the brilliant Soviet space pioneer Sergei Korolev after his untimely death in early 1966, and who had been plodding along with the development and perfection of Soyuz and the N-1/L-3 lunar rocket complex (vehicle) which had experienced several in flight failures at every test flight, was replaced by Korolev's old nemesis Valentin Glushko, who merged his design bureau and Korolev's into RKK Energia, and as its new head, cancelled N-1 on the cusp of success (all the chief designers working on it were convinced the problems had been ironed out and it would succeed on the next test flight which was being readied at the time it was canceled). He then replaced N-1 with what would become his "Energia" design... which one of the payloads for would be the Buran shuttle vehicle, it's only other payload coming into development much later as the 'Polyus" space battle station, which the Soviets developed as their answer to Reagan's "Star Wars" SDI missile defense program, which ended up failing and ending up reentering into the Pacific after it's first and only launch. The Soviets had ALWAYS built their spacecraft to operate without intervention of cosmonauts... they pioneered automated rendezvous and docking from the very earliest days on Soyuz, and likewise their shuttle was similarly designed to be fully automated and not requiring the cosmonauts to do anything to fly or land it, or even be present aboard. The US shuttle COULD have been similarly designed, BUT NASA and the Air Force made a very CONSCIOUS decision NOT to create any 'autoland' capability into the shuttle... throughout the 70's NASA's very vocal opponents in Congress had gained considerable power and prestige, namely Senators like WIlliam Proxmire, who crusaded against government waste with his "Golden Fleece" awards for things like $400 hammers and $2,000 toilet seats in various defense projects, and Walter Mondale, long time opponent to manned space flight, who would ultimately be Carter's Vice President a thus the de-facto head of the national space council (or its equivalent at the time, a position which Kennedy had bestowed upon his VP Lyndon Baines Johnson). NASA feared, and probably with some good reason, that IF the shuttle was capable of landing itself, in effect operating autonomously without the need of humans aboard, that ultimately the opponents of manned spaceflight could potentially argue successfully and kill off manned spaceflight, allowing the shuttle to continue to be able to launch satellites in an unmanned mode, and return to glide back down to a landing. It was necessary to computerize the ascent and reentry, and the maneuvers leading down to the last few minutes of gliding down the runway, but by NOT developing an auto-landing capability, it therefore REQUIRED four fingers and a thumb on the stick to glide the shuttle down to a runway landing, and if ONE astronaut is required aboard, then there's no reason not to fly SEVEN astronauts aboard. It essentially made manned spaceflight "cancellation proof" as if the politicians TRIED to cancel manned spaceflight, they would be cancelling the satellite launch capability of the US, as for a while basically ALL US launches were required *by law* to be launched aboard shuttle, if possible or feasible.... only satellites designed and engineered for launch on unmanned rockets BEFORE shuttle became available were going to be allowed to NOT launch on shuttle, with the idea to "eliminate the competition" to shuttle and thereby FORCE it's success... IN reality what happened was, MOST of the commercial satellite companies FLOCKED to cheaper alternatives like the upstart Europeans with their early Ariane rockets, even as the US powerhouse unmanned launch vehicle capability was left to wither on the vine and was to be destroyed entirely, until Challenger ultimately proved the SHEER FOLLY of that thinking, and gave it not only a reprieve but a new lease on life. Meanwhile our commercial launches basically SUBSIDIZED the further development of more and cheaper launch alternatives to shuttle with more capable unmanned launch vehicles like Ariane V, and later in Russia, China, and even India... It's only NOW with the RETIREMENT of the aged US shuttle fleet and the dispersion of its main purposes, flying crew and cargo to the space station, to commercial companies first under the COTS ISS resupply contracts, and now with commercial crew as well, that it has breathed "new life" in the US space launch capabilities in the form of new development and new players like SpaceX and others... Later! OL J R :)

[@Nine-Signs]

@@lukestrawwalker Well that, was incredibly informative. It has been a pleasure to meet you.

[@lukestrawwalker]

@@Nine-Signs Yes, nice meeting a fellow space enthusiast, and an internet commenter who is actually erudite and polite. Thank you! OL J R :)

[@user-ss6pz2ou1c]

17:52 what?

[@lunarmodule5]

parachute system from the rear section of the SRBs

[@foxmccloud7055]

I actually dreaded the launch of the James Webb Space Telescope on Christmas day because of Challenger.

[@timtapscott8737]

Wait I’m confused. The cabin compartment stayed in tack. Yet it fell to their death. What’s the purpose of the pod if it’s just gonna fall. Is there a parachute?

[@lunarmodule5]

No parachute - the crew cabin remained intact - it was designed that way - and back in the days of development there was consideration made to have some form of recoverable crew cabin.....but it was never put into the final design.

[@Trainlover1995]

@@lunarmodule5 They should have designed the shuttle so that the crew cabin could detach from the fuselage with a launch escape tower, then deploy parachutes for landing. That would certainly have saved the Challenger crew.

[@trevorsimpkins3142]

​@Trainlover1995 An LES would've created its own problems. Jettisoning the tower after its no longer needed would mean that the exhaust plume from the LES engines are blasting the delicate heat shield directly. Plus getting rid of the tower with major components of the vehicle ahead of the cabin carries a big risk of collision.

[@redbaron0949]

I have never seen, although they may have not existed at the time of this flight, a video from aboard the ship itself possibly being transmitted to mission control. Anyone know if this exists?

[@lunarmodule5]

There was no downlink TV of this launch. Cameras were not fitted inside the cockpit on any of the shuttle missions. They did place cameras on the external tank for live TV but it was much later in the program. SRB cams were also installed later to record SRB burn and separation but we're not live.

[@lloydanthony7465]

When did the Changler blow up?

[@chrisw443]

Imagine the crew still alive falling to their death becasue nasa couldnt make a safe abort system that the soviets made for their shuttle.

[@foxmccloud7055]

I don't want to know because it would be horrific.

[@ltrillium1000]

The epitome of the "good ole boys network." Not a woman in sight. Now before you all go nuts, my only point is that if you compare this video to the Columbia accident video, there is a huge difference. And today we have women flight directors. The head of all flight directors is a woman I believe - Emily Nelson

[@ellexking9136]

I watched the liftoff of the Space Shuttle Challenger, only CNN had it broadcast. Regular network channels felt that the launch was another routine event. When the long-range camera zoomed in on Challenger, and I saw how high up the vapors was along the SRB'S, and ET, I instantly thought to myself, That doesn't seem right? Then when I saw the flames engulfed Challenger, and pieces going everywhere. I knew exactly what had happened. RIP Challenger and Columbia Crews.😞🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽♥️