MAF Tuning and Scaling, Tuning Series Vol. 3, HP Tuners

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[@marblizedsowa8698]

The world is running out of good people like you. A serious and humble thank you for these videos. The HP community is a great group and unlike any other tuning community and guys like you make it possible for the rest of us. I’m tuning an 09 PPV Tahoe and it’s been an awesome experience seeing this thing come to life. ABT.

[@GoatRopeGarage]

Thanks for watching, just want to make the tuning experience available to more people!

[@ridesbyrod61]

Dude you are awesome..best tune info on youtube....and i also am greatful that you do not have to use profanity to get your point across...excellent..thank you

[@GoatRopeGarage]

Thanks for watching!

[@Toys4Life]

+1 on the profanity thing!

[@michaelslack6891]

-2 on the profanity thing. Learning how to tune, not judgin

[@jayadams5529]

Coming from somebody trying to learn to tune, these videos are great thank you for putting this content out on KZbin.

[@hippywomg]

Oh man its intimidating but I'm determined. No matter how many times I have to watch you do it! 👍👌💯

[@harryjohnson2]

Awesome video! Please keep making more, they are extremely helpful for a lot of us!

[@claybird07]

Needed this exact video thanks alot! Cant wait for the rest of the videos!

[@twh2318]

Thanks for making these videos. You do a good job explaining all this.

[@steelcurtain92]

Glad I found your channel! Awesome video! Looking forward to watching your other video's!

[@ailtonliramaster]

I am so happy I find your videos, after doing tune school I was lost and you brought light and knowledge, thanks you.

[@cj7911]

Where did your do your "Tune School"?

[@subigurl3370]

So happy I stumbled across your channel! Learning how tuning works and you explain it well!

[@ericnieto9394]

Really big THANKS for making theses videos!!

[@twadam5218]

Appreciate your in depth videos on tuning topics both MAF and SD !! Keep up the great work.

[@davetteman3695]

Will you please make a video on using Lambda and what actually changes in the tune. Maybe a legit lambda for beginners? Love the content this is by far the best tuning channel on youtube!

[@ericwiatrowski8574]

Agree, love the content, would also like to see a video explaining lambda vs afr and how to properly implement it for using pump gas with meth injection. That being said im a newb when it comes to tuning but have solid background in diagnostics and scanner work so I do have an advantage over many and so far I've been able to understand most of your "lessons" the 1st go around. For anybody else, follow the playlist and re-watch episodes without disturbances as you'll need to focus! Good stuff here brother!

[@scubastevoo8404]

lambda is simple its just percentage 1.0=14.7 afr gas .9=13.23 ie richer .8=11.76 even richer then the opposite is true also 1.1=16.17 and so on if you follow if you have a 1.1 you are lean need to add 10% more fuel if you are .9 you need to remove 10% fuel in those blocks just remember you are measuring oxygen not fuel! more oxygen makes more pieces ! ie way too lean. hope this helps

[@Okami_zs]

@@scubastevoo8404 Thanks for that that explains it really well for me just started watching the videos

[@greenjeens]

I consider myself a newbie, and your videos are such a great help. Thank you for the great content.

[@jasonglipp]

I've KZbin so many videos, finnaly someone who's audio is clear and you explain things very well. Done remote tuning and having issues, done a local tune and cars worse. Have a CTS V with cam, pulleys ect. time to learn and make adjustments myself. Thanks for taking the time for this.

[@Will.GM11]

Great video very informative, I’ve been able to know what I’m doing just by watching your videos. 👍👍👍

[@jacksonmurphy2628]

Keep up the good work man this is some quality content

[@leewarren8693]

You have helped me alot with tuning. Love your videos

[@shanemerf]

Awesome video. Very helpful. Thank you.

[@chrisnicholson72]

Another good video, can’t wait to see more 👍

[@TheSsteiner]

These videos are great! Super helpful and good concise format. Thanks for teaching and sharing your good knowledge.

[@GoatRopeGarage]

Thanks for watching!

[@natez0690]

Excellent video! Thanks for showing how to setup the logging tables. I also appreciate your playlists on the different generations of GM computers, GEN III & IV etc.

[@JimBob-wy7tl]

Thanks alot. Ive been looking for more direct videos for some time now and finally found this one. Cut out all of the clutter talk and get straight to the good stuff! Thanks again

[@GurjB]

Thank you so much! Because of your videos i was able to buy my own hp tuners and ditch the email tune that i had for my cai and intake manifold modifications on my 16 mustang, i was confused about maf/period but i realized its the same as freq! I will be getting long tube headers soon and cant wait! Thank you! Thank you!

[@SaturnTwinCam]

Thanks! Once I finally found out how to get my wideband to read and compare against this video was perfect for getting it setup. A few more runs and then off to the VVE table.

[@leroyhart1368]

Awesome information you are giving me and others. Thank you!

[@tylorlamy9532]

Super excited to follow all of this info. Thanks man. You're great!

[@GoatRopeGarage]

Awesome, thank you!

[@MrBoricuapr1]

2007 suburban maf calibration has high and low freq. tanks for your help!! really appreciate it..

[@aronkoosh4731]

I have been helped so many times by this community started by Kyle. Thank you Kyle! I am having an issue with my 6.0 LS/TR6060 69 c10. I am tuning and just made my step9 file and was happy with it enough to be done. As soon as I put all settings back to normal just like in this video and fired it up, it was way rich up top (like .72lambda when it should be .82 in PE up top). It was also off at idle and cruising around even. STFT and LTFT was adding anywhere from 10-20% even though I had everything MAF tuned to a very happy place.

[@dhoagland3rdgen]

Really nice... Short, quick, but very informative. Thank You

[@GoatRopeGarage]

Glad it was helpful!

[@sonnywillier9419]

Great series! I'm just getting started (just got my HPTuner device 2 days ago). I really appreciate that your videos are doing a great jot of both explaining why and showing how. Both are what I need to see. Also, I do like the format of splitting up the How and Why videos so it will be easier to come back for reference later. Luckily I have some time before my project is running to learn as much as I can before I try to apply it.

[@GoatRopeGarage]

Let me know if you have any issues! Thanks for the feedback!

[@jimmiemiller4327]

Man I’m so glad I found these videos you have no idea! Found them when I bought my wideband and KZbind. I don’t have pro but I have an MPVI2 so I bought all the stuff you listed for your setup and already had the AEM X in order. Excited to get the most out of my car!

[@GoatRopeGarage]

Welcome to the channel! Check out the live show on Thursdays!

[@carlmartiensen2124]

Thanks for your time and effort into making my life a hell of alot easier, your knowledge and training capabilities have helped a first time tuner get the shopping trolley running after new cam, wideband addition etc, bloody legend! Any pointers into running dual FBW Throttle Bodies utilising an E38 ecu 6.0 project 1937 Chevy pickup from Australia (not quite running yet) just looking to get some sort of base tune down, and anything else i should try. Thanks, Carl

[@richardatcheson8598]

I’m trying to watch enough videos to understand how this thing works before I start and I found this very interesting and I’m looking forward to using my HP tuner thank you

[@deansutcliffe4327]

Great set of How to's - I have a C4 vet that Frankenstein's monster would be scared of with an LS2 and 6L80 and this logical process is just great, one subject per item is clear and easy to follow. I've done the MAF over the weekend and next is Speed density. You have taken from the black box of worry to something I don't mind working my way through. Many thanks for putting this up and taking the time.

[@benharroun3746]

Thanks for your hard work in making these videos. I have dialed in my 2010 Camaro SS better than the guy that was paid to do it as a professional!!! Couldn't have done this without the vids.

[@Boostlee]

thank you so much for this, it has been my long time dream of becoming a reputable tuner. so far i have learnt how to tune hondas and with your help im sure i will be able to tune much more. thank you

[@speedycpu]

Thanks for the videos, great stuff. Learning tuning to help modify my supercharged LS3 so I don't have to drive an hour and pay a ton at the tuners. Just a heads up, when you went to remove 5 degrees of timing you clicked twice so it ended up removing 10. Thanks again for the awesome videos, I'm learning a lot!

[@bencox9262]

Thank you. Most car guys seem to make it so complicated to sound smart or cool. You lay it on straight thank you.

[@derrickolson9611]

Great vudeo, Love the format.

[@Battle_Garage]

This is the best hp tuners explaination of maf tuning ive ever seen. Thanks!

[@GoatRopeGarage]

Thanks for watching!

[@Battle_Garage]

@@GoatRopeGarage one question. Can a eq error ratio be setup with stock o2 or does it have to be my wideband?

[@GoatRopeGarage]

@@Battle_Garage Has to be wideband to get EQ error.

[@philistineau]

Thanks. This was a big help.

[@pcmcobra]

Thanks a ton for the series. Just recently decided to learn to tune. I have been stuck on some very simple things, you have explained where I can understand what you are actually doing and why. Not just "do this...why? because..." You helped me gain momentum to keep moving forward and not stay stuck on my frustrations. Can't thank you enough.

[@robertpreston2352]

Thank you very good info.

[@uivideo7637]

Thank you

[@White-Head]

Thanks for all the info

[@bk2life]

great videos.. love the short, to the point video style

[@cread80dsflkdsh]

Thanks for the video. I have just a whole mess of sensors, and various year engine and computers that was never in a factory vehicle together so getting everything zeroed in is what I'm trying to do now. I don't know of any tuners locally that I would trust and that's why I got HP tuners in the first place.

[@CanalRacingMexicoCRM]

Great information videos 😇 and i like short format its more focus in a topic

[@amaurytacosfr]

Very very interesting ! Cool 👍

[@lsXmatt]

Can you log maf error in any gear? I’m trying to get my curve dialed in but I keep ending up with a lumpy frequency chart. Unfortunately I’ve only been able to do redline pulls in first gear due to where I live. I can do some smoothing but a re-log just wants to correct it. I have my ve dialed in plus stft and ltft’s and any other fuel modifiers turned off. I’m also running the stock airbox with an aftermarket filter.

[@diyguy6054]

Great GREAT!! Info.

[@user-fo1zc7tp6w]

Oh man you're just a straight up legend thank you so very much! I'll try my best to support the channel

[@clifford_2zero7]

Definitely prefer a very thorough and specific type of video content. One that explains in deep detail. Cant help but think most of your viewers would be people that would benefit from that and it never hurts to beat the same vital information through over and over and over. Really ingrain this all in the memory banks🤷‍♂️😅😅

[@xsixpacx]

Great step by step , no fumbling around and babbling about off topic stuff like other videos! I like how you suggest “ yours may be a little different so be aware of this or that “ be using more of your vids for gen4 tuning and scanner set up !

[@GoatRopeGarage]

Will do Gen 4 specific videos soon!

[@xsixpacx]

Goat Rope Garage shouldnt PE be disabled when tuning maf and vve ? Or just avoid wot ? Was just thinking while i was data logging

[@ANGRY6LITER]

Finally! A useful place for HPT beginners to learn!

[@GoatRopeGarage]

Thanks for watching!

[@boosted0079]

@@GoatRopeGarage I have Question. You copy and paste the MAF table info into the histogram on the scanner. After logging and collecting the data, you then copy that, and paste special by half back in the MAF table in the editor. You say to rinse and repeat, and my question is, do you then copy that new MAF table and paste it back over in the editor again before running another log?

[@GoatRopeGarage]

It's not a new table but an error table that is calculating the error between what is calling for and what it's seeing so you keep working on it until you get closer to 0% error. I normally shoot in the 3% +- range on the maf

[@boosted0079]

@@GoatRopeGarage I meant, do you paste the new MAF table info back into the scanner, not the editor. But yes, the error table that was made from the start. Is that changed with every log scan? And thank you for the reply man. I really do appreciate it a lot. I'm preparing to do a tune on my Firebird that I did some crazy mods to lol

[@baselalkadah6175]

thanks for you alooot

[@bensinger5229]

Thanks so much

[@GoatRopeGarage]

ABT! Always be tuning!

[@Adrianzx]

I'm learning a lot

[@JOHNPHUFNAGEL]

Hey bud great video

[@maxarndt8087]

Love your videos man! I’m in Australia and I’m about to turbo my Ford territory (Barra) Been watching your videos religiously learning as much as I can! Be cool if I could email you a log and see what you think of it or even have a play yourself see what you can do to it

[@michealbinkley8385]

Just got into tuning and I want to say I really like these series that you are making on tuning. It really has helped me to understand how to tune my truck but also you have explain why we are changing things that is my biggest thing is I want to know why and how the changes are affecting the truck. This is helping me tune my 2013 Silverado. My question for you is do you know anyone on here that is really good at explaining diesel tuning because I have two Duramaxs as well. Or does taking the steps in the series work with diesels too?

[@CARSEVOLUTION]

Thank you a lot for this great explanation But I have questions we copy and multiple by half ? What if we just past it without multiply ?

[@GoatRopeGarage]

You'll be pasting the error percentage, which won't work

[@mbongogeoffred4424]

Sir i due appreciate your tutorial, good explanation i need a video practical with a car.🤝👍

[@stevehutchins7640]

Absolutly love your vids! There has to be a simplier way to add EQ error ratio. Ive made 4 pages of notes so far and not done yet. Absolutly see the value in it but it sure is a complicated process.

[@scottschwer5654]

I'm new to tuning and your videos are great, but dam you go through it fast. Do you have a slower step by step videos!!! THANK you for taking the time and sharing your knowledge

[@sanfordrhudy774]

Goat Rope Garage came back to rewatch this video and noticed that, somehow, I had hit the *thumb down* button. Very sorry, and don't know how that happened. I corrected it, *thumb up* of course! You make excellent vids man! THANKS!

[@tychevelle1504]

Thanks so much for making all these videos! Ive been watching them over and over getting ready to start tunning my G8 gt. I got everything ready to go except I cant set my o2 voltage to negative like in your video. Is there another way I can force it into open loop?

[@garrettbeauregard8733]

Great series of videos! Your presentation style is great--easy to listen to and very confident in your statements. I'm a noob to HPT but long-time user of the aftermarket efi systems. Currently running an E67 on an LS3 crate engine with a roots blower in a '67 Impala. My question related to this video is what is defining the Lambda/EQR/AFR target? This process is training the ECU to determine how much air mass is actually making it into the engine based on the math it's doing to calculate EQR from the air and fuel flow (calculated) values. Is there a table that defines the target EQR? I see reference to a PE modifier--is that a separate table that is used to modify the stoich value based on RPM and load? In other words, how does one change the target EQR? I'm on video 4.1 so I'd be happy if you point me to a video in your library where you discuss this. THANKS!

[@michaelroberts4350]

At about 8:30 in the video you said that we need to change the EQ ratio sensor to our mass airflow sensor. When you went to change your variable you selected EQ Ratio and not mass air. I am a little confused by that. Could you explain some. Thank you so much for your time and dedication!

[@dkennedy9524]

Any advice on how to would be greatly appreciated sir. You have some great informative videos but I didn't have all those options and I'm wanting to learn to tune my 04 cammed silverado. I done all the work to it myself and wanna dabble with the tuning aspect of it

[@Genschannel]

Love the vids mate I rewatch then crap out of them lol tuning aggressive cam ls1 and I’m new jeeeez not easy, how do u hit all the ranges of the maf, I can only get between idle and 7000 hz

[@GTO200]

Awesome channel man I appreciate the help! I was a bit intimidated using the MPVI2 on my 06 GTO but you help make it possible! I'm gonna take it slow and careful so I appreciate any recommendations you can suggest in regards to a 06 GTO with K&N Intake. Keep up the great videos chief!

[@bbodyswap]

Thank you for the videos, I’m learning this as I type. But I’ve noticed that some of the tabs you’re using aren’t available in my VCM editor and I’m using advanced. Gen 3 5.3 LM7

[@robertries7774]

I appreciate the time you put into making these videos. I'm just now starting to tune my 08 Denali with the L92 6.2. the deck and heads have been milled .006, and the block has been bored .020. I'm running a GPI Cam, 216/223 .550 113+8. I have an Arid Jr intake. I have bumped up the idle to 800 and it idles fine there with a nice subtle lope. Cold starts are perfect but hot starts need a little throttle input. I bumped up the cranking timing 5deg and it starts great now. Now comes the MAF scaling, I wish I could just find a good graph to copy in but it seems that a wideband kit will need to be picked up before that happens. I wish the actual EQ ratio could be read. Any thoughts to making a small increase to the MAF chart before I get a chance to dial it in? Thank you!

[@frankobrien4637]

Great Video's! Big help! Just wanted to add my experience with M.A.F. tuning here with HP. In terms of the M.A.F. 2D graph in the editor and it's smoothness. If you look at your scan in the charts VS time table you can see under W.O.T. as the RPM'S rise , the M.A.F. scan is not a smooth rising graph! It flattens out at points during the pull. This I believe has alot to do with camshaft as well as air flow from air filter to tail pipe. So if you smooth out all your peaks and valleys after an EFR error correction then make another scan and apply the EFR error corrections you will see your M.A.F. curve in the graph become un smooth again. Easy to see under WOT because no varying throttle input. Again great stuff!

[@GoatRopeGarage]

Good input, Frank! Might have to try and figure a way of testing that out. Part of it is going to also be attributed to the way that the frequency is calculated may not be able to produce a smooth curve and will require correction. What you might be seeing is the correction to manufacturing differences. The standard curve works fine for a mass produced sensor when you take into consideration that you are using the O2 sensors to clean it up in the end. Thanks again for the comment!

[@BuddyBuilt]

Accidentally added -10 for base spark advance not sure if noticed. You got me this into the videos for me to notice!! So smart! I may need your phone number for tuning help!! Lol! For now i will continue your playlist videos!

[@leroyhart1368]

My Gen 4 Oxygen disable was different. I had a temperature to change verse your voltage.

[@hideeho4444]

Great stuff! My son built my 6.0 and programmed (and since tweaked) my tune using his HP Tuner. I need more programming done but he lives 150 miles away...sooo I bought the 2+ and it is supposed to arrive tomorrow. I am having idle issues and have to wait about 20 seconds on a cold start before I can shift into reverse without it dyeing. I figured I would do a download and see what the settings are and go from there. Also, can you recommend a wide band? I see you are using the AEM X series 30-4110 EUGO. Are you happy with its performance or do you have a recommendation. Thank you again for the efforts you put forth to help others Dan

[@Good-Enuff-Garage]

Great stuff, prefer the shorter more focused videos concept such as this one, just letting you know

[@haydon131]

Love the series, don't know if you will personally reply on such and old video but anyone who reads this and knows can answer and it will be appreciated. So from other videos I have seen people say its better to run slightly rich to keep the engine internals cooler and avoid blowing it up. Would you ever tune toward a lambda value for example of 0.9 so your tune is slightly rich? Just getting into tuning so still have alot to learn Thanks

[@jodyseabolt]

How would you do this with connecting your wideband through the egr or ac circuit?

[@teenagemotorheads1079]

I had got my MAF table pretty spot on but once I turned everything back on it started to show it’s running lean on my wideband

[@stephenholowka2245]

Thank you for these videos, they are awesome and I am learning a lot. However i am a little stuck. I'm using the mpvi2 with the pro feature and I'm trying to log the MAF table like in the video, followed the steps to the T for setting up the PIDs and the tune file to force it into MAF. I have 2 issues that i cant figure out. Truck is a gen4 5.3 a4 with the e38 ecm 1. How do i disable my o2s? i don't have the same option to make the o2 voltage a negative. I'm given a button to press for o2 readiness ECT which opens to a table not a voltage value to change. 2. When i try to log the MAF error table we create, no cells begin to hit or fill up. Did i miss a step or a setting? Is is because of the o2 setting as stated above? Reason for all this is I installed a new 102mm tb and ported the tb opening a little for a smoother transition. The truck runs decent off the original tune however i have a slight lope at idle and I can tell its running a tad lean due to a plug reading and confirmation from the WideBand. I went through a TB relearn 3 times thinking that was it with no change. Again truck is a gen 4 5.3 a4 long tubes, catless y pipe, exhaust, CAI and now the 102mm tb and a port matched tb inlet on the manifold side. Thanks for any help!

[@sethgibbs1686]

great videos I like it even though im tuning a hemi so im trying weed through what will work from yours to mine. also your music I feel like I should be in a pulp fiction kind of movie

[@GoatRopeGarage]

A lot of the basics as far as tuning the fueling is pretty universal, so it will get you pointed in the right direction. Thanks for watching!

[@MADDMERK]

Thank you so much for creating these videos brother! im having an issue where using a aem wideband thru serial-usb, as soon as i start scanning the vehicle, the channel completely disappears from my list. any ideas?

[@vihangjadhav9344]

Thank you for making this video. This is super helpful as I am completely new to tuning. I have a quick question. I have AEM 30-0334 x series wb and MPVI II. I dont have Serial to USB set up. I was reading online and since AEM WB cable hooks up to OBD II port I can use WB EQ Ratio 1 sensor under Oxygen Sensors to add a channel in HP Tuners. Is that a good sensor to read off of or do I still need to have serial to usb set up? Also if using WB EQ Ratio 1 sensor is ok, can I use AEM 30 - 4110 under equivalence ratio in oxygen sensor while editing variable in user math? Do I need to keep O2 sensor voltage as is and not change to -ve with this set up? Apologies if this is not a logical question. Trying to understand if I can use AEM OBD II plug and MPVI II to read this EQ error.

[@baybiboy1]

Hey GRG. First off you Tuning Videos are amazing. I just recently upgraded my V2 with heads, cam ported x blower, and intake. I was able to get the car going with the narrow band sensors just watching your videos. Now I'm trying wideband tuning. I purchased the AEM you mentioned. I doing MAF tuning now and disabled the Dynamic Airflow and O2. The issue now is I can't get the car to heat up the Wideband. It shows Heat about halfway up then the cam hits and it drops out of heat cycle. The wideband is in B2S2 in the Long Tube headers. Any tips on how the tune can help heat the Wideband.? 😊

[@josephlewis2456]

hey, LOVE the videos, they make a lot of sense out of something that can be overwhelming. i have a procharged g8 gt that i have just started working on my initial tune for. my question is i have a new ls3/ls7 maf sensor and 4 inch pipe for it to go into, should i start off with running through the initial tune using my tuning school books and then go throgh the MAF tuning and scaling?

[@GoatRopeGarage]

Honestly, it doesn't matter, but I'd probably button up my SD tune first since it can act as a fall back should something happen to the MAF. Once you have your SD time pretty good then work on rescaling your MAF.

[@eiksaa8737]

How does this compare to tuning with the VE table? And where do the ECU get the Lambda target values from? Love the speed of the video!

[@chris-mts]

When im going to ad the eq from my AEM 30-4110 I can choose from 8 options. 12 WB EQ Ratio 1 to ratio 8. Does anyone know which one i should have. at 7:40 in the video

[@Unzem]

How do you log using the aem wideband you have listed? Does it require mpvi2 pro or how would you set it up on an older gm without can bus logging

[@willcardle8131]

I am have an 03 Tahoe running 12579405 on a P59. It doesn't give me the option to change the O2 readiness voltage to force it into open loop like you did here. I tried forcing it by setting the "Closed Loop Enable Coolant Temp" to way out of reach (+75 in the table) but that didn't seem to work. Any suggestions? Love the video series. You are awesome.

[@buggyndoc]

Really informative. MPVI2 pro. using NGK NTK AFR sensor. This sensor is not listed in the available options to get an EQ ratio, only NGK option is AFX. The parameters for these sensors looks different. Not sure how to set the ratio up?

[@GuessWho785]

Awesome, so I can follow this video and tune any MAF vehicle?

[@Colekeezy]

Thank you for all your videos they are extremely helpful! My question is how do you know everything is correct before you start making adjustments? I’m seeing -11% fuel trims on a stock ‘14 6.2 with just a stock airbox, aem filter and airaid Intake tube. Wouldnt that change skew them lean if anything? Confused here

[@GoatRopeGarage]

Factory trims may have just been that rich on your truck

[@14truelies]

So when you adjusted the fueling by 15% did you do that while car running or did you have to turn off adjust the saved tune file by 15% then re-upload into the car? Also for example if I wanted say 5% more would I multiply by 1.05? And now what if you want Ted to take 5% or more out? How would you do that?

[@ttgperformance5061]

I’ve been trying to learn how to tune. I got the book from the tuning school and it mostly just tells me what to put in. For example the MAF section in the book tells me to change high RPM disable to 200 and high RPM re-enable input 150. I was wondering how did you get the 100 and 99. Maybe I’m overthinking it but I’m just trying to break it down so I won’t blow any engines up since I practice on my gen 6 Camaro.

[@Ethan101407]

I know the mopar platform is a little different but would you know if this concept and procedure transfers over to tuning a mopar ecu?

[@johndoe-zd9lb]

@3:30 you say your trying to disable open loop to keep the o2 sensors from controlling fueling, and you make that change too o2 readiness voltage (that i don't even have with my 3rd gen po1 with the enhanced os).....i was under the impression there is no fueling changes by the o2's in open loop, it's not until closed loop that they do anything? and if that's the case is the goal to stay out of closed loop(which i should be able to control by maxing out the closed loop enable ect vs. iat table correct)?