Mage: the Ascension - Paradox (Lore Video)

[@davidfriend6462]

With all of these Vampires, Demons, Werewolves, Mages, Frankenstein, Faeries, and Wraiths running around it is amazing that anyone in The World of Darkness ever gets to work on time.

[@ThePrimogen]

Hahaha, it does get a bit ridiculous after a while.

[@davidfriend6462]

@@ThePrimogen If were being honest Primogen, it was always kind of ridiculous. I mean, have you read 1st ed? Oh! And the Mummies! Did you know there are mummies too? It's amazes me that no one thought to start the SI decades ago! You can't go get the morning coffee without tripping over something super natural.

[@silvertrimhill9844]

The technocracy and hunters: You’re welcome

[@AlexGoldhill]

The Masquerade ceased to exist centuries ago. Everybody knows about the supernatural, but they don't know that everyone else also knows, so they pretend not to know.

[@the_warpwny]

You have done more to make me understand Mage then anyone in the years I have played WoD. You also made me realise that everyone who has ever tried to get me to play only played on the hardest mode of magic.

[@ThePrimogen]

That’s the best compliment I can get. I was also always taught the HOO way of playing and it made the entire game seem needlessly contrived and categorically boring.

[@the_warpwny]

@@ThePrimogen Yeah. I basically joined every mage game making someone who's only power was knowing what time it is all the time and GUN. Don't have to worry about Paradox if you don't cast spells.

[@DMEGC]

@@ThePrimogen At the time the players of VtM and WtA considered that mages were overpowered, and they influenced how paradox should be interpreted. I always loved MtA, as it was the most original and revolutionary approach to magic in role playing games, probably still is, extemely flexible while being rewarding to players with the most imagination capable of finding unusual solutions to be able to apply their powers. But yes, HOO made the game boring, but VtM and WtA players didn´t cared if that was the case.

[@Posturtle]

I've read through most of the hundreds of pages of M20. I'm thinking what turned me off before is that I played a session of Revised & they were more interested in the humiliation of possible Paradox than exploring an open magic system. I'm currently so obsessed with the Spheres and how they work that I ordered the "How do you DO that?" book to understand them further.

[@ThePrimogen]

Yeah I think it really depends on how you want to play your Magic and HAB is much more forgiving in that regard. I like the idea of HOO, but it does mean you're playing a VERY low-powered kind of game. Almost Constantine/Call of Cthulhu-esque I suppose.

[@leanbow4807]

Wow this is my first time being the first viewer of any video. Also love the content it actually inspired me to get the Mage: the Ascension 20th anniversary keep up the good work

[@ThePrimogen]

I'm so glad to hear that! Mage definitely deserves more live, it's a very cool setting!

[@leanbow4807]

@@ThePrimogen It is but man is it a beast to get into the book literally weighs around five and a half pounds! needles to say it is slow going working my way through it

[@benvalle8253]

Amazing content, never played mage. Gonna have to change that.

[@ThePrimogen]

Glad you enjoyed it and I think you might like Mage as well! 2nd edition forward it got really good, M20 is a very hefty tome though.

[@richardsmith2719]

I love anything I can get to help Understand Mage and it’s place in the WoD. There’s just so much to sink your teeth into... I didn’t know about the ‘Shard Realms’ until this video. Many thanks.

[@ThePrimogen]

So true! I didn't know about them either lmao! This setting is always full of surprises!

[@jthejester2338]

(I'm a Werewolf/vampire player so bare with me as I theories) Sounds like paradox is everyone collectively refusing the mage and attacking them with their own magic as their own beliefs shape the mages actions, or in the case of H.O.O maybe the planet/triat itself fighting against the mage, refusing their claim to power, since this would be a plausible exemption of werewolves, vampires, and others, as the triat/world spirit reinforcing their reality.

[@ThePrimogen]

I like this theory! I'm not sure if it's the Trinity itself, because as Mage describes it the reason why Vampires and Werewolves and such can do their stuff is because it's power granted by Nature/God/Trinity/Whatever and thus part of the weave of Reality. Mages, meanwhile, operate as an outside force that tries to alter the flow of it in a different and, to Nature, uncontrolled direction.

[@rikhenry9701]

great video, I'd been wondering about this topic for a while and this explained the examples very informatively!

[@pancake1308]

MORE MAGE VIDEOS. I really liked it.

[@ThePrimogen]

More to come!

[@ebb2012]

You should add this to your Mage playlist :) Nice video's. Thanks!

[@CaspianTheMad]

I love your content so much! Thank you for making these videos informative and fun. My girlfriend and I love to listen and would love some more Mage videos.

[@JohnQ5]

Thank you for this excellent overview of how reality in the WoD claps back.

[@commandergalendereco339]

The Abyss is the greatest paradox.

[@i4aiRealik]

Would you mind doing a video on the ananasi? I would really like to see it.

[@ThePrimogen]

The werespiders? I will probably return to the Fera once I'm done with Demon, Wraith and (potentially) Hunter, so it's definitely in the future!

[@i4aiRealik]

I await the dark masters tutelage, thanks

[@juliagoodwin9510]

Sounds like a real pain... F**k reality.

[@ThePrimogen]

Yeah Mage isn't a game for everyone, haha

[@nineflames2863]

What about places on Earth that aren't under much Human control (if at all)? You know, like large deserts or the Arctic/Antarctic? Would the effects of Paradox be weaker there or is Human consensus affecting the entire globe? What about places that are only really inhabited by native tribes, like the Outback in Australia? Would the definition of "reality" be different there?

[@anasb.8647]

Depends on wether your game has an omniscient observer or if paradox comes from average observers witnessing your magic. He literally explained it the video.

[@nineflames2863]

@@anasb.8647 But he also said that magic used to be risk free back when humanity was less organised and had vastly different definitions of "common sense" or "reality". My question is whether or not regions that are still more or less untouched by civilisation are less affected by this relatively new phenomenon of paradox.

[@ThePrimogen]

You would have to find some truly, *truly* isolated people for their presence not to raise the level of Paradox, but I'm fairly sure that places far from civilization offer less resistance Paradox-wise, but don't quote me on that.

[@EloquentTroll]

I'm of the HAB camp. What is the point of my players being Mages if they can't do cool stuff?

[@ThePrimogen]

I tend to agree too, although I sometimes lean to the HOO for dramatical effect if the mages get too big for their britches.

[@juliagoodwin9510]

Exactly!

[@lukamilenkovic9578]

Just asking when is Demon: The Fallen coming back?

[@ThePrimogen]

Tomorrow. These are Patreon-sponsored videos and are released outside the usual schedule

[@TheChannelTroll]

Have to ask, how do PENTAX and the Technocracy interact with each other, if at all?

[@matthewpage8313]

Last I heard the Syndicate has a member placed high on the Pentex board of directors, overseeing the Finance division (of course.) I don't think it's ever really been delved into in the meta narrative. But based on what we know of both organizations I think it's kind of a devil's dance where both sides think they are the ones coming out on top even though neither really is. The Technocracy no doubt placed one of their own in Pentex's ranks to keep an eye on them as well as tap into some of their economic or material resources to further its own ends. As it probably does with many major corporations or global conglomerates. But it doesn't appreciate or understand just how far and deep down the Wyrmhole the company really is nor the corrupting influence it might have on them. The Syndicate's Special Projects Division methodology in particular is already playing a dangerous game "laying down with the dogs" so to speak and would probably be liquidated in a week if the rest of the Technocracy or even it's own convention knew exactly who or what it had been making back door deals with. For Pentex's part it is probably at least dimly aware of the existence of Mages as it has representatives of the Traditions, Technocrats, and Nephandi scuttling about its labyrinthian halls of power. And it sees the Technocracy's agents as inroads into the organization, both as a means of getting their hands on advanced tech and feeding a little poison back to the source. But it underestimates the exact temporal and mystical powers the Technocrats wield or what might happen if more of Pentex's dirty secrets or supernatural connections reached the eyes and ears of the Technocrat higher ups. So if you want to imagine two businessmen smiling at each other and shaking hands while they hide daggers behind their backs, I think that would probably best sum up the interactions between Pentex and the Technocracy.

[@TheFalcoDude]

Yay for more mage content! 😀

[@ThePrimogen]

You know it! Hope you enjoyed it :D

[@EchoGirl]

So...would being an astrophysicist make you a better or a worse mage? lol

[@silvertrimhill9844]

Probably worse as understanding science would kind of conflict with whatever you do with magic (Or maybe not the explanation of magic didn’t make too much sense to me)

[@EchoGirl]

@@silvertrimhill9844 well, not sure how serious of a theory it is but i have seen some ppl talking about 'universe/dimension' shifting, though that also might be a fun roleplay thing as well

[@alejandrorivas4585]

in truth being a material sciences engineer makes you unstoppable. because at that point its full metal alchemist style alchemy.

[@rodroinrainbows9929]

My major issue with this game are the Marauders. They suffer the same as Malkavians, they suffer mental health issues because major forces and that doesn't do any good to the picture of mental health, especially with Marauders, because the skip Paradox as if it does not exist because "they are mad", becoming raw forces of chaos, and this is bad, because the metal health issues are stigmatized and "gamified" to be able to play something as stupid as The Joker. For me, they should revise or remove, but the "mad antagonist" archetype of character is so Hollywood and so popular that removing Marauders is likely not in the ecuation for any potential future edition.

[@ThePrimogen]

Handling mental health in games is always iffy because comparatively the amount of times people with mental illness are villains and bad guys vastly outnumber the opposite. I'm not sure what I would do with Marauders, but I agree with you.

[@rodroinrainbows9929]

@@ThePrimogen The thing is, Quiet, the reason because Marauders exist, is bad. It implies madness and chaos. If you really want to have the thing of "losing yourself from reality" the Bedlam Threshold and how it works in its game is way better designed. In C20 your characters doesn't become mad, they just suffer an extreme conection to the Dreaming, and usually for the bad of the character, and because of that a character may or not suffer any mental stress from this, but it does NOT imply that your character, because is becoming mad, create chaos. That is so so stigmatizing for people that suffers mental health issues. Maybe a mage suffering secondary effects from a magic effect that is temporal or maybe permanent if the mage has broken the reality so hard? For example, if a mage uses Mind for listening the thought of people and N parameters (let's call it Quiet, for example) triggers, the Mage cannot control it and can't stop listening the thoughts from the people that surround them I don't know, I do not really design games, but Quiet and the Marauders are pretty bad as they are in M20.

[@TheGreatCapra]

@@rodroinrainbows9929 You’ve got an interesting viewpoint and criticism of mental health used in media, and to be honest, I’d like to hear more about how you formed it. What is the actual misconception that we (gamers, game devs, hollywood, etc.) should not be portraying in regards to mental health? That mental health deficiencies, which often do fuel bad decisions in real life, don’t cause bad things to happen? Let me try to break this down in a gaming scenario: Say 2 heroic characters, knights, are fighting some sort of ancient demon in a castle. The demon uses their powers, causing anyone looking into their eyes to experience hallucinations (a mental health issue). 1 of the knights is affected by this, he looks at his knight buddy who now appears as an even more menacing demon he fought in the past. Haunted by his memories of the demon, he decides to attack him instead. The knight kills the other knight. Does this count as a portrayal of schizophrenia and how madness hurts relationships? What if the author of the story didn’t know or care about any sort of real-world mental health parallels and never referred to it causing schizophrenia, saying it was just “mind magic”? Does the drama of the situation change if the author DID intend for the attack to be actual schizophrenia and even directly said that “The knight’s schizophrenia killed his friend.”? Cause, I mean, it can be argued that it really did, it just may be in poor taste to imply that schizophrenia causes murderous tendencies. Although this schizophrenia was caused by an ancient demon with no real-world parallels. I’m not really familiar with the bedlam system you are talking about. How does that fix the mental health problem? Some link I found to it gave a list of possible mental effects at specific severity stages. It even referred to autism as being listed as a symptom that causes the affected to “become unintelligible creatures”. That’s an instance where I would say the portrayal of mental health effects in a game DOES hurt people in real life. Does it affect anyone that Joker is just acting nuts on screen? I don’t know, maybe, in like a vague kind of cultural inspiration pop-culture sense that no one person can really control. Does it affect anyone that a game dev listed people affected with autism as unintelligible creatures? Soundly yes, it just directly insulted any players that have autism, and all you would need to do to change that is rewrite a line of text. Surely it’s much more damning that anything near what is portrayed in this video or in extended lore about mage marauders. Anyway, I genuinely want to hear your response because I might bring this up in future games.

[@rodroinrainbows9929]

@@TheGreatCapra I am struggling with English so I will try to explain myself as clear as possible. The mental health issues are of those things that, in my opinion, is you really want to add them in your games you need to do a lot of research and study, because for portray them as respectful as possible. I am not Psychologist nor have the formation needed to add them respectful in my games, so I would really rather not add them as long it isn't needed. There are games like M20 or Call of Cthulhu that try to gamify them and pull them to the most stereotipical way possible, and this is when issues start. A lot of people have or had mental dissorders, but this does not mean that this people is mad. The thing is that this dissorders usually develop because some triggers, like stress, and even if you have biologicaly the tendency to show them in the future (thing that it isn't demonstrated, a recent article has shown that there haven't been found any biological indicators that a person will go through a depression). And a second and more importart thing, any, ANY, mental dissorder is treatable not only with medication but with therapy where you learn tools to keep the control of the situation. Obviously the most severe cases, like schizophrenia, are there to stay, but that does not mean that a person will be mad forever, that person can be treated and become functional again. It may have episodes, but it is not a "mad sentence". This is why i really REALLY hate Malkavians, Dementation is a terrorific Discipline and their health dissorder is imposed because of ancient curse, making this people untreatable and have a mad sentence. Everyone knows that Malkavians are insane, and for the bad reasons. In Hollywood, books, TV Shows and multimedia, including TTRPGs, when they add a person who has one of this dissorders they are usually the villain (mad villain stereotype like The Joker) or a comic relieve, being pretty bad. Nowadays lots of series treat this problem better, like Bojack Horseman having an ultimate essay about trauma and depression along its six seasons. This really agraviates when we go to TTRPG and they add madness and mental health issues as something playable, if not by the DM, by the players of a table. Things said, about the question about the knights. It is possible that bad things happened because of mental health issues and that could happen, but I, personally, would not relate that to schizophrenia because I, and like my the vast majority of people, don't have the knowledge nor sensibility to portray schizophrenia in that story. About Bedlam in C20. A changeling, the creature you control, is a being of two natures, human and fae, and they must mantain their natures in balance because is they are too human their fae side dissolves and if they let their fantasy nature eclipse their flesh nature, they stop being able to distinguish the reality from the Dreaming. The use and abuse the magic beyond limits are the triggers to get lost in Bedlam, and mechanically in C20, when it triggers, a Bedlam Threshold takes place. This threshold may be that the changeling start to listen and see things from the deeper layers from the Dreaming in the real world even though any changeling could do that normally because their fae soul have absorbed or used too much Glamour and it is suffering the consequences. As I aply in my table, this does not have to do anything with mental health, and as far as I am concerned, the book does not imply "madness" or "mental dissorders" as well. Maybe mental health issues can have a place because this thresholds may aply great mental stress to a characters, but I do not go that way. Probably in older editions or even in 20A there are kind of compromised things about this, but coming from White Wolf I don't really expect less. In M20, when a Mage has really fucked up with reality so much, not only they will suffer que Paradox Backlash, maybe the Mage has made a step to not being able to dissociate reality with what it isn't. This is what the game calls Quiet. The thing about Quiet is that it has points on common with Bedlam in C20 because they represent the experience of a character that has problems between its two identities, but M20 directly talks about delusion, and in some cases, Madness, for Dynamic Quiet. Directly implies that your characters is suffering from delusion without any real reason non other than using magick, and in the worst case it implies, without any specification, Madness. And when you read about the "Madness" and inevitably about Marauders, the book associates Madness with chaos and raw forces of destruction and vulgar magick, and this is a very very bad portait about mental health issues. It is possible, theoricaly, to get out the "Quiet" state, but not because even with the game implying mental health issues being treatable or something, but because jaja, magic. And Marauders can't get out of Quiet, so they really go to the things that I said before and smash them into a wall, sending them into Oblivion because it is fun having mad people in a game to face with the characters because they are villains. I don't know if I have explained myself correctly, but thanks for asking.

[@CityFolkDreams]

Paradox is not nice :(

[@ThePrimogen]

Quite the opposite, yeah. You're going to have a bad time.

[@Welther47]

Arh, It's nice not to have that weird cartoon figure on the screen.