Joseph Campbell's N@zi problem | Part 2 of 2

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Join me, Maggie Mae Fish, as I talk about... oh God, Joseph Campbell was a Nazi apologist.
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-- Partial Bibliography / Recommendations (will add more later) --
** Alternatives and Critiques of the Hero's Journey **
- "Carrier Bag Theory of Fiction" by Ursula K Le Guin
- "Heroine's Journey" by Maureen Murdoch
- "The Problem of Woman as Hero in the Work of Joseph Campbell" by Sarah Nicholson: canvas.brown.e...
- "Reimagining the Modern American 'Monomyth'" by Carley Peace: scholarworks.g...
- "The Man Behind the Myth: Should We Question the Hero’s Journey?" by Sarah E. Bond, Joel Christensen: www.lareviewof...
- "Why I Seldom Teach The Hero's Journey Anymore -- And What I Teach Instead" by Craig Chalquist: www.huffpost.c...
- "MYTHOLOGY: The Myth of Joseph Campbell" by Mary R Lefkowitz: www.jstor.org/...
- "THE HERO'S JOURNEY IN ADVERTISING" www.thearetical...
- "Beyond the Hero’s Journey: Four innovative models for digital story design" by Steve Seager: www.steveseage...
- "The Hero at a Thousand Places: Kurt Vonnegut’s Slaughterhouse-Five as Anti-Monomyth" by Ankit Raj: www.tandfonlin...
** Tangentially Related Sources **
- Interview with Phil Tippett about "other narrative possibilities" with his film Mad God: • Meet Phil Tippett and ...
- "We Had a Little Real Estate Problem: The Unheralded Story of Native Americans & Comedy" by Kliph Nesteroff
- "The Odyssey" translated by Emily Wilson (read the forward, it's GREAT)
^^^ If you have other recommendations, tweet them at me! ^^^
Thanks to my wonderful guest voices!
Lady Knight the Brave (Brian Attebery) / ladyknightthebrave
Big Joel (Joseph Campbell) / bigjoel
Select footage and photos curtsey Getty
Select footage and photos curtesy AP Newsroom
Additional sound effects by Epidemic Sound: epidemicsound.c...

[@MaggieMaeFish]

oh boy here we go again, Joey

[@BOTHthosearetaken]

As a white guy named Joseph I like to remind people to never trust white guys named Joseph. Except for me and Joseph Lister. We're statistical outliers.

[@Where_is_Waldo]

👏

[@Indrid-Cold]

You’re so charming, intelligent, and talented. Will you ever endeavor to utilize these increasingly rare traits to create some variety? When I notice you’ve posted a video, I try, I really try to watch and enjoy. Yet, I wonder if you realize how much of a one-trick-pony, beating-a-dead- horse that you’ve become? Equestrian metaphors aside, it would be nice not to hear the term, “patriarchy,” within the first three minutes of every video. Don’t get me wrong, Joseph Campbell, is an asshole. However, in a lot of these videos, you are really, truly reaching in order to tie in the male-bashing, patriarchy theme. As a result, you miss out on the entirety of the human condition. Again, I get the gist. Everyone who watches your content gets it. Covering the exact same ground in every single creative endeavor is not going to lead to some paradise destination. You’re addressing concepts and ideologies that have been well established for over 4000 years. These ideologies are present in every major theological myth. I despise the Jesuit, religious industrial complex as much as the next reasonable person, but it’s a losing battle. It’s like trying to fight rainy days, like punching in a dream. For all of known human history, this establishment has been in place, and it’s not going anywhere until all of these religious industrial complexes crumble. You and I both know, that’s never going to happen. With so many other compelling, interesting, and important issues/subjects in the world, why limit yourself to just one? Why not try celebrating some of the beauty in the world for once? After all, fighting a losing battle, only serves to remind all those concerned, on a regular basis, how painfully slow and insurmountable progress is. It won’t happen in your lifetime, nor the next, nor the next. It’s unlikely that humankind will even survive that long, considering the exponential and logarithmic destruction of all that makes this planet habitable for our species. You’re an exceptional person. Maybe try being exceptional in an uplifting way? Maybe try being the exception every once in a while? For what it’s worth. Sincerely, and respectfully ❣️✌🏻

[@joesjoeys]

I cant wait, Maggie! (Cuz... thats my name ^_^)

[@aslanevrim4348]

There aren't enough like buttons on KZbin to share my appreciation of this video

[@TalkingVidya]

Like my psychologist said: They were not character development, they were traumatic experiences

[@ChristopherBass-k3b]

Yeah, what part of gods becoming gods because they endured agonizing trauma that they brought upon themselves was the least bit confusing?

[@donquijoker9871]

Sending a lecture about how "the nazis aren't so bad" to someone who had to flee the nazis is kind of a dick move. Mann's answer was way to kind for what Campbell was trying to tell him

[@sabrecellist]

Mann's repetition of 'this is strange' is incredible. It's like he is honestly more confused and bewildered than offended -- like the response to someone spouting conspiracy theories on the subway.

[@zeaol]

Anger translation "Look mofo, if i EVER see you in person i will literally stomp yo ass for being this dumb."

[@st.anselmsfire3547]

I can say from personal experience that military recruiters very much play up the service as your own "hero's journey." It is carefully constructed that you will undergo a journey of transformation, defeat the bad guys, and come home a hero, forever changed for the better. Judge for yourself how accurate that is.

[@weatheranddarkness]

I think Full Metal Jacket does a very good job of really undermining that recruiter's promise. Apocalypse now does it better, Kubrick is overrated, but Maggie did use Full Metal Jacket a few times in these videos. I think Apocalypse does it a bit better because it really leans into the possibility that there is a "hero's journey" to be had, but is constantly undermining the very foundations of it the whole time. Even just the starting point of the protagonist being like Katniss, having already been to the front, and feeling lost afterwards. And that's where you start the story. I guess it's one of those things about art where it really has a lot to do with the interplay between your own and the creator's sensibilities.

[@erikfldt390]

Yeah, it’s almost Disneyfied the way they do recruiting and basic training. You get your photos in your dress uniform (one of maybe three times I ever wore the thing), it feels like you’re waiting in line for rides with a lot of training (hurry up and wait), they have a family day at the end, and when I signed up in ‘06 they still had the Army of One mantra, but it just seemed like a lot of spectacle. Granted, I was 25 when I went through basic so I was an old man in comparison to the typical 18-20 year olds who filled the ranks and they were eating that up.

[@FascistPastry]

Given "the need to shitpost" was never identified as a permanent human value it's clear Campbell knew about as much about humanity as he knew about soup.

[@shytendeakatamanoir9740]

He didn't even wore soup on his head. What an absolute buffoon.

[@MantasticHams]

@@shytendeakatamanoir9740 IKR what a MilqueToast lil SoupDick

[@aliince9372]

...from the very little I saw in this video, Campbell looks exactly like what I'd imagine someone that is a connoisseur of soup...

[@xenasBS]

But tell me Joseph Campbell doesn't sound like a soup baron.

[@user-sf4fy8bq1h]

Campbell knew as much of humanity as a fish knows of the sea

[@UnreasonableOpinions]

The 'find the link from this major figure in Western literature to actual Nazis' game is usually supposed to take more than exactly one step.

[@godi8628]

noticing almost all hollywood use it is not the kicker.

[@Lucifersfursona]

Nazis got the idea of eugenics from American 💀 fascism wise, the United States did not win WWII. The origin country of naziism had and has more interest in the death of fascism than america, and we have our gleeful contemporary nazis to prove it.

[@idsbraam]

It is scary how often it is just 1 step.

[@GamesFromSpace]

Or maybe zero steps...

[@Jimmy1982Playlists]

@@GamesFromSpace Exactly... it's not 1 degree of separation - it's no separation whatsoever!

[@EdenLippmann]

"The artist [...] looks at the world dispassionately." What the fuck? Why would anyone create art without passion? What kind of zombie art is Campbell imagining?

[@mookinbabysealfurmittens]

Sounds like he prided himself in being "isolated and detached". ↼_,↼ (Like that goofball, T.S. Elliott. Hear it in Big Joel's voice for extra giggles!)

[@shytendeakatamanoir9740]

Even Théophile Gautier was very passionate about True Beauty being absolutely useless.

[@asmodiusjones9563]

I think it’s more a subconscious expression of his privilege, that he sees his views as the default, rational result of the strict application of logic, while any other view is the result of passion. Like how some people view a work to be apolitical so long as they agree with the message, but see it as “getting political” when it has a message they disagree with (or when they actually realize it has a message). Twitter guy who wished RatM would stick to music and not get all political, I’m looking at you.

[@shytendeakatamanoir9740]

@@asmodiusjones9563 It is an absolute privilege to be able to spew so much absurdities (to stay polite) and never have to rethink your position. Never being challenged sufficiently and never having to apologize

[@UnreasonableOpinions]

It's still enlightened detachment as long as you get mad at the things I'm mad at, because those are The True Values.

[@Maria-ut7lk]

It's not so much that Thomas Mann was eventually exiled by the Nazis as that his entire family had to flee Germany on the same day that the Nazis took power... I'm not even sure Thomas Mann was ever able to set foot in his hometown again.

[@juliusnatrup5916]

Thomas Mann returned to Europe (specifically Switzerland) in 1952 and frequently travelled to Germany in his last years. But yes, while Thomas Mann was small-c conservative (in stark contrast to his more left-leaning brothers), he was way too critical of the Nazis and had way too much standing among the German elite at the time for them to be able to coopt him, and so he had to flee.

[@jack-a-lopium]

@@juliusnatrup5916 Well, that and that he was gay... although that seems to be somewhat missing from the current crop of goose-steppers... or even being white, for some reason...

[@matthewreeves6084]

@@jack-a-lopium well, that and he also wanted to have sex with his own children… that seems to be somewhat missing from this fawning over Mann and demonizing Campbell

[@jack-a-lopium]

@@matthewreeves6084 'He'? Who do you mean? Do you know how to construct a sentence in English? I've never heard anybody 'fawning' or 'demonizing' either of these men, it certainly doesn't happen in this video either. Like everything, there are some good and some bad. You can read books written by both men, it's not one or the other... sheesh.

[@ericv7720]

That was true of a lot of German intellectuals: Remarque, Einstein, Adorno, Horkheimer, Arendt, et al. Some came back following the war; some didn't. The one big exception was Karl Jaspers, who hid his Jewish wife in their own home until the end of the regime.

[@RoseThePhoenix]

"That pain did not help *at all*" hit me right in the chest. Yeah, all the bullying I encountered actually just beat me down. All the depression and anxiety I had as a direct result just stifled me. Yeah, I've unraveled some of that in middle age, and had some personal growth as a result, but like... maybe that could have happened sooner? Maybe I could have spent my twenties growing instead of just trying to slog through all the pain I was in? Pain and abuse shouldn't be romanticized as some true pathway to growth. There has to be a better way.

[@dominiccasts]

There's a sweet spot to challenge that does produce growth, where things are not so easy that you get bored but not so hard that you aren't still accomplishing things, but that still requires support from those around you for the tougher bits, and is only fully realized in well-crafted lesson plans and well-designed video games. For messy life stuff having the support of those around you is so crucial that we really can't condemn bullying enough for how much it cuts people off from it.

[@jonathanstern5537]

Same. Most times pain doesn't lead to growth, it just sucks.

[@shytendeakatamanoir9740]

We can grow because of the help and support of others. Traumatism, often, destroy that link, destroy your trust and self love. They stop you, they even makes you regress. I am lucky to have a supportive family, and it still toon me years to go to a point where I can finally start to progress.

[@brianstorm5488]

It’s reductive to say it does or doesn’t; it works in infinite varieties and some can take growth out of terrible things. Others are not built to conquer their demons. In a Buddhist vein non-resistance can be a survival trait, and path to empathy including the self (and in the Christ sense, your enemy as well.)

[@Roland00]

@@saucelette2023 quote comes from Nietzsche, who inspired Jung, and Campbell wrote books where he included his favorite Carl Jung essays. (Such as the portable Jung) *sigh*

[@unoriginaljames]

"The dude just doesn't listen." I feel like so many societal problems could be just boiled down to this right here. It takes a particular type of privilege to be able to ignore the inconsistencies of your worldview and just allow yourself to reap the benefits of the status quo. Obviously, this serves are a stark reminder to examine your biases and listen to criticism and feedback from people with different perspectives. Thank you for sharing!

[@valentine2911]

It's like the scene in Annie Hall, where Marshall Macluhan pops up to shoot down a blowhard who's mangling Macluhan's theories. Except Joseph Campbell says, "no, Thomas Mann, you don't understand your own work". Pure intellectual dishonesty.

[@mrosskne]

All of his worldviews are consistent.

[@josiahws5]

​@@mrosskneconsistently wrong

[@marteawqakuq7455]

I'm quechua, indigenous culture from south america, and researcher of the influence catholicism had on andean folks' myths after spanish invasion (spoiler alert it was a lot). I have read a bunch from Campbell and actually kinda like his work because for me it was just one more gringo viewing his reality as the center of the universe and, in my position, this is too common to think too much about. The only thing that really bothers me is the impact he has TODAY, how the Hero's Journey and his vision STILL being used and validated after all this time. How western world doesn't seen to be capable of letting the hero fucking rest. My culture lost a lot with christianity, it had to adapt to survive, and as a result our heros changed too :/

[@PatrickBoyda]

I've found that most people who talk about war itself as "glorious" or "heroic" have never been within a hundred miles of a real one.

[@Gloomdrake]

They also tend be the ones who see profit from it

[@TirOrah]

Exactly. Far too many people think war has 'winners'; it only has losers, and those who come out a bit better than the losers.

[@spiralswithinspirals]

@@Gloomdrake Fascists also valorize "noble" to the (fascist-imperialist) cause death!

[@weatheranddarkness]

reminds me of a film director i heard of recently, Peter Berg, and one of the cringiest interview moments ever. Dude started lambasting his interviewer for not joining the IDF.

[@platylobiumobtuseangulum1607]

Dulce Et Decorum Est. Wilfred Owen.

[@beermanmccool1226]

"What doesn't kill you makes you stronger" is something people who lived sheltered, comfortable lives say.

[@rodneyhart9719]

To be fair, Nietzsche was chronically bed-ridden from illness and going blind (before going insane). So it's more a platitude some bitter, proto-incel nerd comforted himself with on lonely nights. I say this as someone who owns and enjoys most of his writing.

[@cambriaofthevastoceans6721]

I prefer Trevor Goodchild's version from the Aeon Flux cartoon "that which doesn't kill us, makes us stranger."

[@cambriaofthevastoceans6721]

@burning hammer kai if it is they took it from Flux. The Aeon Flux cartoons predate Dark Knight

[@rodneyhart9719]

@burning hammer kai Aeon Flux did say it in the 90s. Early season 2 when it switched from shorts to 30 min episodes.

[@manospondylus]

@burning hammer kai Isn’t the Joker’s line that it makes you funnier?

[@CthulhusBFF2]

The fact that George Lucas was partially inspired by Campbell’s works but STILL had the common sense to code the villains as Nazis shows that Star Wars was good in spite of Campbell’s influence, not because of it

[@__-vb3ht]

There's even an interview where Lucas is asked if making a movie where rebels fight an empire in the 70s could be seen as a commentary on the Vietnam war. And he flat out says that's how it's meant to be seen. The interviewer asks if that would make the Viet Kong the good guys and the US the evil empire and Lucas again just goes "Yep that's what I meant"

[@weatheranddarkness]

@@__-vb3ht God, why did he have to hand the whole show over to the evil mouse? He wasn't perfect but at least he had something worth saying. NOW it's just IP exploitation.

[@DjViceroy]

@@__-vb3ht wow such a brave stance for him to take post Vietnam War

[@__-vb3ht]

@@DjViceroy Yeah definitely true, but still

[@AnthonyAcriaradiocomix]

Nice try.

[@Chimera6297]

"and the Buddha is basically Christ here" I've never heard a worse misinterpretation of Buddhism in my life

[@transsexual_computer_faery]

tactical face palm deployed

[@TenositSergeich]

Everyone is Jesus in Campbell's mind. Except women.

[@connect1affect711]

And it's the worst interpretation of Jesus at the same time!

[@Ugly_German_Truths]

Unfortunately you may hear even worse ones in "professional" christian apologetics, Campbell was just an amatheur enthusiast in that regard...

[@CTHD13]

The Buddha very much predates Jesus and that part is especially driving me mad.

[@marywilliams3886]

"How repulsive they find you, and not just you, but all the things you genuinely love about yourself." Hits way too close to home... Thank you for putting it into words.

[@HiddenDarkHM]

God I am 32 years old and you have no idea how CATHARTIC this video duo was after getting laughed at in my college creative writing class for challenging the hero's journey, for being told I was wrong when I pointed out stories that didn't follow its structure, who was told by my professor I clearly "hadn't read enough" when I pointed out it seemed reductive and a narrow-minded way to look at storytelling. I regret not having really studied it since then but I just looked at it and said, "Well I guess I'll just be wrong then." and filed it away with my other opinions like that.

[@haileybalmer9722]

This is my favorite series. When I learned about him in high school, I thought his ideas were so profound. I revisited his work in my early 20's and went... wait, what did I just read? This is so narrow and limited.

[@danrimo826]

Oof. Yes can relate.

[@kerishaw8991]

We covered the power of myth at the very begging of my tenth grade world religions class. It was such an important class for me

[@winterx2348]

as someone with chronic illness, i can confirm, pain does not help at all, and i'm a worse person because of it. i don't get to exist without people criticizing me about how i should be nicer and sociable and more sympathetic to others while i watch everyone i know and love slip away from me to live their own lives free of torture. it takes more work for me to shower once a week than you will ever know, and yet i'm expected to pull double duty as a saint, because iT mAkEs Me A sTrOnGeR pErSoN. i'm that bitch who screams and cries when the smallest thing doesn't go my way, because that's just what you do when all you have left are the small things. if the hero's journey was real, then the only role i'd get is the villain, because there are no ends to these means.

[@Jimmy1982Playlists]

Amen, _beautifully_ put! I'm 40 and have been totally disabled for at least 20 years of my life - chronically ill, fatigued and in _severe_ pain - and you just described the last 2 decades for me... the amount of judgemental ridiculousness I've heard from privileged, healthy people - who have no clue what it's like to be completely disabled - is nauseating. They sound a lot like Campbell, in fact! Not a coincidence. And I don't wanna be "an inspiration" to others... I wanna reasonably function as a human being and somewhat enjoy my time on earth, and I don't want others to live in such anguish, either. PS. Amazing how so many people are offended by the idea of caring for your fellow human being. They go on about "woke" culture more than they ever did about any actual problems in the world that create the need for political engagement and said culture. Easy to be so-called "non-political" when politicians and their ilk aren't attacking your right to exist as a human being and, in fact, back up some fabricated "right" of yours to dominate everyone and every thing in the world (Sorry if I've descended into rambling - the topic triggers me lol) Great video from Maggie!

[@winterx2348]

@@Jimmy1982Playlists No need to apologize, my friend, I get it. God, do i get it. I wish you the best!

[@Colorcrayons]

I can empathize with your position far more than I want to admit. I am in therapy right now, myself, and half the time some of my therapists are just as bad as the common street urchin with how careless they are, in their language and actions. All I can say is that I genuinely do hope you somehow find some sense of peace, and figure out how to be functional (however you choose to define that) in an incredibly dysfunctional world.

[@UnreasonableOpinions]

Those with disabilities and chronic illness are called on to be saints, because the saints are silent and ask us for nothing.

[@sarahwatts7152]

Hard agree, I've been sick for 5 years and the "you're too young to be that sick" nonsense is a hair trigger. But so are many other things (anybody else have misophonia?). It's hard, because I want to live in a world where people understand at least part of my circumstances, but I do NOT want to teach every slack-jawed idiot who wants to command my time.

[@yourlocalnerd7788]

**excited English major who hates Joseph Campbell noises**

[@rodneyhart9719]

Even if you ignore the Eurocentrism, the "monomyth" is textbook unfalsifiability: "Every story follows this framework. Except when they're allegorical/symbolic representations of these steps. Also, some stories skip a step or several. And sometimes they occur in a different order than what I just listed." Not to speak ill of another dead dude, but we're talking about an industry that frames quality storytelling around the sage wisdom of the esteemed writer of "Stop! Or My Mom Will Shoot!"

[@ryanmoore6259]

When used as a general basic tool it doesn't necessarily have flaws.....as long as you don't treat it like the be all and end all

[@larshansson1953]

Ah. Dispassion. The corner stone of engaging art. Picasso was famously dispassionate about war and suffering when he painted Guernica.

[@whitherwhence]

About his painting Starry Night, Van Gogh famously wrote: "the night sky is sort of up there"

[@addi_oh]

Campell's use of Mormonism and Salt Lake City as his example for the proper arrangement of a community rings so many alarm bells for me. The shots of their temple with his voice in Pt. 1 gave me chills, SO creepy!! I grew up in that cult, and I can't even tell you how many times I've heard his ideas embraced in the way you describe. Mormons just loooove the way Campell and his imitators like J.P. validate their beliefs. Hearing your criticism is beyond refreshing! Loved this

[@sherlocksmuuug6692]

The fact that so many people try to downplay the fact that the LDS is a horrific cult that de facto rules over an entire US state, is deeply unsettling. Especially because only their fear of the feds is stopping them from enacting most of their insane beliefs. Of course Campbell knew all of this and loved them precisely for that reason. Because he was a rotten individual and a conman himself.

[@Jimmy1982Playlists]

Absolutely... Not to mention, if you meet anyone who calls themselves "a maverick", I'd advise you to turn and run in the other direction!

[@drdarkeny]

@@Jimmy1982Playlists - especially if he wants to race you on his motorcycle while listening to Kenny Loggins?

[@doefarris2189]

For real, Mormonism's a fucking human meat grinder.

[@ryanhollist3950]

I grew up Mormon, in UT, and I can tell you, extolling the culture as some paragon of how to arrange a community is disturbing, at best. Of course, hearing the "virtues" Campell held up, I can see how he would have that idea of the Mormon community. The cultural homogeny, worship of authority, and the ways myths are used to control thought all fall in line with everything shown in this series.

[@frankmccormick5499]

Maggie, one of my favorite Science Fiction/Fantasy writers, Sherri S Tepper, wrote an excellent take down of the Hero's Journey titled "Raising the Stones" with the title referring to the myth of Theseus. If you haven't already read it, I highly recommend it. It nicely complements your essay as one of the main threads is about a man's failure to believe women's stories. Technically, this is the second book in the loosely connected Arbai trilogy. But it stands well on its own. If you find this book as interesting as I did, reading "Grass", "Raising the Stones", and "Sideshow" in their proper order for the interconnected story is well worth it.

[@frankmccormick5499]

Lying awake due to other issues, it occurs to me that IMO Tepper's best book "The Gate to Women's Country" deals an even more thorough take down of the toxic aspects of masculine culture. And it contains one of the best, surprising, and topical "mystery boxes" I've ever encountered. And unlike most her other stories, the mystery box contains a practical working solution to the central problem, however with its own sorrowful ethical issues. To give you the proper "flavor", know that a version of "The Trojan Women" runs as a rehearsal for the play throughout the background of the novel. I'd say "trigger warning for mental, physical, and spiritual abuse" but how to eliminate such abuse is the central theme. So, I won't say much more than "if you are a feminist and haven't read this do so at your earliest convenience." And if you manage to figure out the secret of Women's Country before the end of the book, you probably encountered something similar before.

[@pleasedonotwatchmychannel]

The “hero’s journey” is truly insidious, in a way. Recently, there was a study from MIT economists show up on reddit, titled (paraphrasing), “Attitude may not be principally responsible for poverty” (don’t recall exact phrasing, but the word “principally” was used). In it, the researchers concluded that solving poverty (in Bangladesh) simply requires giving a lump sum of money to “talented” people. These are PhD economists. They have studied for years, spent years of their lives studying this stuff, and their solution to poverty is to give “talented” people a bit of money. MY BRAIN MY POOR BRAIN I AM SIMPLY TOO STUPID TO UNDERSTANNDDD

[@stonethered]

Man's poverty vanishes soon after being gifted a large sum of money. Authorities say 'These events may be unconnected'

[@ryanmoore6259]

I'd say that it's more misused. As a "hero goes on adventures, returns home changed" isn't a bad thing.

[@indejcriptible]

thx for reminding that suffering doesn't lead to happiness, really appreciated

[@RunningActor]

As someone who bought into "The Hero's Journey" far too much in my college days, I really appreciated the way you broke it down in these. The "Heroine's Journey" is much more true to my life for sure.

[@jack-a-lopium]

@AMT When you're at college (as per the post you're supposedly replying to), you're an adult... your methodology is the infantilization as described in the video... keep buying the Super Male Bone Broth, and ten different caffeine pills you big baby.

[@jamelwest2586]

Thank you for dismantling this intellectual charlatan. 'The Hero's Journey' places so many limitations on narrative that we can no longer afford to indulge. You got a new subscriber.

[@jamelwest2586]

You are certainly justified not picking it up. Just in case you have never done so, try Jung. Campbell is just a 5th rate version of him. Derrida has so many valuable insights. Especially in Beast and the Sovreign and The Gift of Death. Levi-Strauss, Roland Barthes, and Donna Haraway all make Campbell's childish approach to myth ring hollow.

[@jamelwest2586]

@Rachel Forshee Words of a sensible person if I've ever heard them. I personally prioritize fiction over theory, so I understand what you're saying.

[@WereScrib]

@@jamelwest2586 This exactly. TBH I can only criticize Maggie's video for not actually dismantling the monomyth, rather mostly doing character assassinations of Campbell. TBH I wish she didn't linger on stuff that's not a good argument, too much of it is cherrypicked, when his work should speak for itself--it's flawed and even cursory analysis of the works he bases his ideas on feels flawed to heck. Because say, Star Wars? Star Wars does not follow the Heroes Journey all that well, and it better than pretty much everything that's not a Russian children's fairy tale

[@ryanmoore6259]

The problem is more being misused. When it's viewed as A way rather than THE way it can make some good observations.

[@AndPennyThought]

I can't help but think of "All's Quiet on the Western Front." The young man fights through the war and lives till the final day, when it ends, and he dies, killed by the reality of the imperfect transmission of information. He doesn't die in a fight or reaching for a goal but by the messy and uncanny world which we live in.

[@sherlocksmuuug6692]

Almost, but the real tragedy is that he doesn't make it quite till the end, he dies just a month before the armistice. And on an otherwise remarkably uneventful day at the front too, which is where the book's title comes from.

[@AndPennyThought]

@@sherlocksmuuug6692 you right; it's been a while. Though the spirit is there, his death isn't even an event worthy of commentary.

[@sherlocksmuuug6692]

@@AndPennyThought Yeah, it's almost more depressing in the original German. In English the situation report going back to Germany on the day he's killed is of course "All Quiet on the Western Front", but in the original it's "Im Westen nichts Neues" or "In the West, nothing new." I don't know why but somehow that reads even colder.

[@weatheranddarkness]

@@sherlocksmuuug6692 like, mechanically cold to death, ya.

[@mdd4296]

@@sherlocksmuuug6692Because the literal translation spell bluntly that his death doesnt matter a bit. All quiet is more poetic, lessening the cold reality.

[@kandyjo]

Listening to you drag Campbell’s corpse while decimating the “hero’s journey” is my new ASMR.

[@lastflunky]

I remember hearing about the hero's journey in college. I thought "wow what a limited view on of media" and proceeded to not think about it until now.

[@daimonhampton]

This makes me think of how forced some of the connections were in that book. I thought I was just stupid

[@caseyw.6550]

That's what I used to think when I first heard the babblings of JP. And I'm convinced many of his acolytes are just pretending to understand what the hell he is talking about in order to feel smart and superior. They all seem to have the most fragile of egos.

[@UnreasonableOpinions]

A major part of the right-wing griftosphere is serving people the aesthetics of intellectualism - when your justification for your idealism is detached enlightened superiority you need to paint over the massive cracks in your beliefs, and it's easier to just let a smart-sounding guy tell you it's all fine than to do it yourself.

[@drdarkeny]

@@caseyw.6550 - a BUNCH of Campbell Stans responded to Part 1 of this video, and they're like the Donald Trumps of Intellectuals - bellicose, thin-skinned, denying what's right in front of them if it doesn't fit their "perfect" ideology of Joseph Campbell.

[@cambriaofthevastoceans6721]

@@caseyw.6550 oh i just had a week-long argument with one. It was very clear he didn't even understand the basics of philosophy and had just incorporated all these buzz words and phrases. Deep sounding ideas, that lose all meaning under scrutiny.

[@FortyHurts]

I read some Rand in college in the 80's and had a similar reaction - "I don't get it, it seems like she's just an asshole?"

[@morganwentworth2041]

My hero's journey involved seeking wisdom from a bunch of other people on how to handle attention deficit at work unsuccessfully before sitting down, looking inside myself, and realizing I am as motivated by stickers as I was when I was 6

[@imustremaincivil2932]

I can relate. Well not exactly about the passion for stickers, but the other stuff. I hope things are improving for you.

[@MihiNomenEstSecretXD]

When I learned about the hero's journey in high school I made a casual comment about how all the hero examples we had seen were men and how that might be a bit sexist. My teacher told me I shouldn't say that because "some people might find that offensive". I stumbled into a legitimate criticism of what we were learning in class and something that could've sparked an interesting conversation and been used as a jumping off point for more research into this topic, and instead I was told it wasn't right to question those types of things

[@cambriaofthevastoceans6721]

Male ego is like the tail end of a prince rupert's drop.

[@Robstafarian]

In high school, I was threatened with a write up because I mentioned Walt Whitman's bisexuality in a presentation about Leaves of Grass.

[@Dalenthas]

I've found that sexists are quite comfortable calling you a sexist if you question their sexism.

[@PS-dm1dq]

@@cambriaofthevastoceans6721 What is a prince rupert's drop? How is male ego like that? Could you elaborate pls?

[@cambriaofthevastoceans6721]

@@PS-dm1dq a prince ruperts drop is a glass form which completely disintegrates in an instant, when its little tail gets damaged.

[@anthonywheeler2082]

I found the Kishotenketsu 4 act structure on youtube by complete accident! It's insanely popular in Asia, and it's the anithesis of the Hero's Journey haha It's so flexible that Nintendo used it for level designs in Super Mario 3-D Land! I highly suggest looking into it if you haven't it's super fun. Works really well for horror stories too. And both these Joey C videos are great Maggie!

[@maximeteppe7627]

Interesting that it would work for horror, since the reason I found it interesting is that it doesn't require conflict like the Hollywood wisdom says stories do (and so I associate it mostly with the most slice of life Miyazaki movies, even though I know it's reductive).

[@anthonywheeler2082]

@@maximeteppe7627 I think Junji Ito uses it for his horror stories as an example. No tradtional conflict but his stories get very creepy!

[@UnreasonableOpinions]

@@anthonywheeler2082 It makes much more sense as a template for the East/South-East Asian notion of curses and corruption not as a specific act or consequence of malice that has an origin and can be countered or killed, but more like... pollution, I guess. It's also telling none of these stories make their way into this structure without being pulled apart, because that notion of corruption just doesn't work as an adversary. Uzumaki's a great example of that, as even though there are lots of small adversaries, the real enemy is just the lingering influence of a thing that happened long ago without any contemplation of the catastrophe it is causing now.

[@unstoppableExodia]

Well now that’s something i definitely need to look into. Thanks for the prompt.

[@Karreth]

Well, that's good to know. Suddenly I get why my English literature friend got so cagey when Campbell was brought up.

[@kittyythecat]

Growing up, I was taught to believe King had more power than Queens despite having the same royal title. Seeing the ending about how Maggie felt about spider-man and how people project onto you because of your gender or sexuality made me want to cry. How far I've grown believing about how humans are all the same but we all have different stories to tell. Not a single story rather many types. I hope we can see more creativity from people from many cultures, gender, sexualities, etc.

[@averyorsini6600]

This kind of makes me happy that Anakin Skywalker which is about as close to a Jesus allegory you can possibly get, Complete with divine conception and everything, becomes evil as hell and was Partially driven there by His sense of entitlement to a role of authority.

[@viridianacortes9642]

Yeah. I feel like the story was supposed to criticize chosen one narratives. Those narratives are unrealistic and just not based on reality at all. Also, there are dangers to thinking you are better than anyone.

[@alienfromlhs1140b]

@@viridianacortes9642there’s also dune, which is one of the best takedowns of the “chosen one” trope imo

[@Dalenthas]

What really broke the Heroes Journey for me was finding out how many of the steps were optional. Like, yeah, everything is one myth if your myth is so all encompassing and you're allowed to ignore parts. It's like the literary equivalent of astrology - say nothing deep and always be right.

[@darkmelancholy]

"All myths align with my worldview because it's correct. My worldview is correct because all myths align with it. I am very smart." -Joseph Campbell, probably

[@edwardlwittlif]

I feel like discovering the superficiality of Joseph Campbell should be a thrilling experience. Because if every "great" story is fundamentally the same story... isn't that a huge bummer? If somebody told me that I'd already experienced THE singular story, that everything from now on would just be a rehash, it would be such disappointing and disheartening news. It would mean that no story could be both great AND new ever again. No new magic, no real excitement, just nostalgia for the stuff I liked when I was a kid. That sounds like hell, like a fate worse than death. Whereas if the world is full of truly new and unique stories... I mean, THAT'S what real adventure sounds like to me. But I was always highly skeptical of Campbell, so I might just be failing to put myself in Campbell stans' shoes. Maybe the exact things I hate about the monomyth theory are also the things that his true believers love most.

[@panamajack5972]

Have you ever heard the saying, "Nothing is new under the sun."?

[@edwardlwittlif]

@@panamajack5972 Yep! It's a cliché that I don't believe is true at all.

[@dalton-at-work]

in the shoes of a Campbell stan, the fact that "every story is Jesus Christ" would be an open invite to find validation of your beliefs in literally every work of fiction.

[@hedgehog3180]

I generally get the impression that the Monomyth is popular with people exactly because they don't really like literature and want an easy answer to feel above it all. I can sorta sympathize because it really feels like the education system does everything in it's power to remove our enjoyment of fiction by trying to present it as something that always has one correct interpretation. I hear that in the US this is especially dire since teachers like to frame literary analysis in terms of what the author intended. If you were never any good at that and have a bunch of bad memories from school because of it then the Monomyth is a tempting cop out that can make you feel above it all.

[@DatcleanMochaJo]

You're very dumb for coming to that conclusion. Not every story is the same. He never said that. They have a similar and fundamental underlying structure. Similar beats. You are strawmanning the argument because that would be saying The Odyssey and Star Wars are essentially the same.

[@doodoobuttah]

Great video, was thinking he reminds me of Jordan Peterson while watching and then you mentioned him being a proto JP lol. Peterson is basically Campbell except he cries every time he says anything

[@adamlane6453]

Peterson based most of his shtick off of Joseph Campbell, yet he has never acknowledged this. As if he is relying on his audience to not know who Campbell is, to appear as if his thoughts are more original than they really are.

[@Roland00]

The thing in common is both Carl Jung (both JP and JC have read him) but also Peterson has read other authors but you have to understand Peterson is selective in how he understands other writers. For example Jung liked Nietzsche*, thus Peterson likes Nietzsche. Nietzsche did not like everything happening in his own time and critiqued some aspects of proto Carl Jung people, critiques that apply to Peterson, Campbell, and Jung as well but Peterson can not see / process those critiques for Peterson does not listen and only searches the text for things he likes and he highlights those things. *I personally can not stand Nietzsche or those other 3 men, but my point is to underline they are not the same. Yet “ somehow “ they become something like a gestalt for toxic men to project authority into. And god I wrote way too much here as a reply.

[@sabretoo]

I think the part of the hero's journey that messed me up the most is the "refusal of the call." It gave me the impression that, whatever my destiny is, it's going to seem initially unappealing, but I'll just have to stick with it until I'm fulfilled. (Talk about following your bliss.) That really doesn't make any sense. Why on Earth would that be true? Even if you look at the original Star Wars movie, Luke's refusal of the call doesn't add much to the story. Luke does turn Obi-Wan down initially, but he doesn't really mean it. He wanted to be a Jedi like his father the whole time. To be a hero, you have to both want and not want to take the journey. Because wanting things is immoral, but not wanting things is unmanly. (As a trans guy, the layers of expectations boggle the mind.)

[@colleenorourke1433]

"Refusal of the Call" is essentially just a cliche way to build tension and irony into the start of your story, there's nothing profound about it.

[@BlackTestament]

Holy crap this comment is absolutely relatable lmao

[@ryanmoore6259]

He kinda Did mean it though. It's only when his Aunt and Uncle die that he goes. He still had family obligations.

[@stuartp2006]

It's absolutely hog wild someone would go from "some european folk hero tales follow similar beats in their adventure" to "a gay German Jew should be indifferent about the Nazis or else they're not a real artist".

[@eightnine3341]

Taking the wings off was radiant, incandescent acting 10/10 no notes

[@ikeekieeki]

just a sec

[@ceticobr]

The bit where you talk about experiencing the world as a woman ( "when you are a woman people project things onto you like you area blank screen") is very moving and eye opening. As a man I will never be able to comprehend what it is like to be a woman, but you have have nudged me a little bit in that direction and for that I am thankful. Thank you for fearlessly putting yourself in a vulnerable state. Your videos are clearly a work of passion.

[@jamesrule1338]

... wait a second, James Joyce, the guy who specifically wrote a story where the main character's sign of gaining enlightenment included specifically rejecting Christianity ("I will not serve that which I do not believe" words said by the main character specifically called out by another character as sounding like Lucifer), and Campbell said he was a fan of Joyce's writting? Really? Did Campbell not actaully read any of Joyce?

[@MaggieMaeFish]

He doesn't listen!!!!

[@EAKugler]

No one actually reads Joyce.

[@haileybalmer9722]

Maybe he only read those letters Joyce wrote to his wife about how much he loved her farts. I could see Campbell reading that and thinking, yeah, that's a real man right there.

[@UnreasonableOpinions]

No True Story doesn't follow the method, so luckily you get to say any piece of a work that doesn't suit you is just a mistake.

[@spiralswithinspirals]

"Did Campbell not actaully read any of Joyce?" Did Peterson read Marx?

[@danc6167]

Learned a ton in this video. Knowing more specifics about which books were burned really game me pause. Thanks, Maggie and save Martha.

[@mooseymoose]

It’s quite interesting how that info somehow goes missing so often.

[@Dorian_sapiens]

Yeah, next time you hear a free speech fetishist comparing some contemporary example of "censorship" to Nazi book burnings, be sure to ask them which books Nazis burned, specifically.

[@QuinnsIdeas]

Always a good day when this channel uploads!

[@Ersanven]

Every time I studied the Hero's Journey then sat down to write I realized I couldn't write in that structure. It's just not how my brain tells a story. Maybe it's because I'm neurodivergent and engage with storytelling different. Now I'm glad I'm not stuck in that trap.

[@angelman906]

Having a story where the main characters are the center of absolutely everything and absolutely the most special people in every room. Not that those stories are bad, I just don’t like writing them.

[@orlarihan6336]

he really said mann went woke lmaoo

[@birdwatching_u_back]

I have an upper level college course in the spring called The Hero’s Journey. You better believe I’m coming to class armed and ready with some of these spicy quotes ;)

[@BluePraetor]

Just wanted to say that I've been dealing with writer's block for a few weeks, as I've been wanting to write about nonsensical heroes (kind of as a reaction to a writing class where the theme was heroism). Finished the video, typed three pages. Thanks Maggie!

[@jmpnr]

I think it’s funny that I read Campbell as a teen as was like “this is pure horseshit” and wrote him off forever. I could see through him as a literal child lol

[@TryingIGuess]

I learned about him in middle school, tried to fit it to the hobbit, and realized it was horseshit.

[@ryanmoore6259]

Eh. There are some meritous elements

[@t3tsuyaguy1]

I find your work nourishing. I've lost track of the ways you've influenced my thought process. The time you take to guide the viewer through your analysis is masterful. I'm glad you're able to take the time to do what must be a mountain of work to craft these.

[@eyeamstrongest]

maybe I don't wanna be a hero anymore

[@NichePlays]

Incredible video as always Maggie. This really picked apart one of those things that's just been regurgitated for so long that I think a lot of people have failed to fully consider some of it's implications. I remember hearing about THG from an old Star Wars documentary and becoming curious about it. Then, later in college, I remember people talking about it in classes, professors referencing it when teaching story structure in screenwriting classes or the absolute glut of video essays praising it that my peers sent each other (for reference, I was a media prod/film student in the second half of the 2010s, just when Star Wars was making a comeback). Add to that all the praise Dan Harmon's version of it got, and I honestly never considered the fact that the story circle was selectively built out of stories from other cultures and simplified them at best, and at worst was the borderline incomprehensible ramblings of a Nazi-apologist. I referenced the story circle in a video I made some six months ago and honestly just had to throw a comment on it explaining that Campbell was a shitty person because, especially after watching this essay, that is so clearly obvious and undeniable. Sooooo yeah. Awesome video and I'm glad to see you got to make a part two!

[@mooseymoose]

As someone who filled their own head with nonsense as a teen, I vote for “incomprehensible ramblings” take as I am quite familiar with the style and “substance”🤪. I will probably never cease to cringe at my past self. F U Joey C.!!!!

[@ryanmoore6259]

Dan Harmon's definition isn't WRONG though. The idea that Campbell is worthless is rather childish

[@karoliinalehtinen6701]

I write as a hobby and I find a little disturbing how many people who give out writing advice in internet and in professionally published books talk about hero's journey like it's the only proper way to make your book good. I never liked it because it feel too formulaic to me, but I was a little worried sometimes if I'm doing writing wrong because I'm not using it. I really hope people will start thinking a little more critically about these popular story conventions.

[@acollierastro]

'You can see men writing their myth about you in their heads while you're talking.' My field is heavily male and I feel this every single day. This speech was so good I want to tattoo it on my face.

[@poutinewizard]

“One man’s bliss is another man’s letter to a queer writer who is being by hunted by fascists” needs to be on a tea towel and a crop top

[@jonathanstern5537]

C. S. Lewis had an idea of temporal snobs; people who think things are good because they're new. I think people like him and Campbell are the opposite. They think things are good because they're old.

[@SWProductions100]

While I think C.S Lewis probably liked older things, I don't think he necessarily thought they were automatically better. He once wrote a bit on reading old books. For him, reading old books allowed the reader to gain perspective on what people historically assumed was 'correct,' with the benefit of hindsight allowing us to better see any errors. This was in addition to reading modern books. For Lewis, a person reading only modern books could be more blind to their own assumptions - half-confirming already-believed truths or aggravating errors. To quote: "Not, of course, that there is any magic about the past. People were no cleverer then than they are now; they made as many mistakes as we. But not the *same* mistakes." (Though Maggie is really more touching upon recurring errors in history. I still think it's worth pointing out) Edit: Grammer

[@colonelweird]

My god, this channel just gets better and better, doesn't it? This approach to Campbell is new to me -- I never read his books or made him any kind of guru, but his basic ideas (hero's journey, monomyth) were everywhere when I was a young adult, and I more or less took them for granted. I did always have a question in the back of my mind about whether that hero's journey was as universally relevant as Campbell claimed, but I didn't pursue it. But the significance of Campbell for me is his position in American culture especially in the 80s and 90s. So I can't help seeing these two videos as an indirect commentary on the ways cultural conformity functioned in those years. Because of his Bill Moyers interviews, he became a huge pop culture star back then, at least among the kind of liberals who watched PBS. And with your critique in mind, it's very odd that he became so popular -- I feel it requires some explanation. Moyers was a classic civil rights liberal, not someone you would expect to take kindly to this proto-Jordan Peterson misogynist. Yet when it came to Campbell, Moyers apparently forgot his politics completely. I think this must have something to do with the shift in the 80s towards self-help spirituality and general individualism -- Campbell's popularity was a manifestation of this trend, but there were a great many others, and I suppose he was just swept up in the tide of those years. Lately I've been thinking a lot more about the history I've lived through -- I just turned 58. So I was born at the beginning of the Vietnam war, became an adult during the American destruction of socialism in Nicaragua and the Soviet Union, and have spent the last three decades watching the US slaughter Muslims by the hundreds of thousands in the Middle East. And during this time, Americans embraced neoliberal capitalism and various forms of pseudo-spirituality; discovered new ways of being misogynist and racist; and generally assumed that everyone's life is determined by -- and dear lord I hate this word -- their "choices." Joseph Campbell was a star and Monica Lewinsky was a demon. And all the while, the bodies of little children were being ground up by bombs around the world, courtesy of the Pentagon. Sometimes this honestly just overwhelms me. But the one thing I know to be true is -- we really are the baddies. (Sorry for the rant, I got a bit carried away. I need to watch these two videos again for sure.)

[@FelisImpurrator]

The American self-help movement, i.e., the institutional copium pipeline that entails blaming victims and denying the existence of systemic issues in hopes that they'll go away by themselves, is also informed heavily by Viktor Frankl's "Man's Search for Meaning", a pathetically terrible book about a man whose survivorship bias and egocentrism was so great that he believed he survived a Nazi concentration camp and other prisoners didn't by "thinking positively". It's pure magical thinking, of course, as is the entire line of belief descending from this - the cult of toxic positivity that permeates so much of American psychology like a wet fart.

[@gumbygreen14]

Israel is just as guilty, if not more so - if you’re talking about human rights violations. The atrocities they commit against their neighbors in Palestine are akin to what Nazis did to Jews, poles, and minorities in WW2. When will people actually wake up?!

[@mhfromnh1421]

ok, I now need to talk to the scifi teachers at my old high school about including the alternatives when talking hero's journey.

[@asmodiusjones9563]

The think about sci-fi is it can be anything - absolutely anything - but so often authors reuse this tired, old formula uncritically. What I hate most is, as Maggie identified, the nihilism and inevitability of it all. Like, that’s all a story, or a society, could ever be. An author could write a story to be anything, and we, as a society, could make almost anything if we just set our minds to it; but we *just. don’t*. If you want to get nuts, I recommend Olaf Stapledon and his works Last and First Men and Star Maker.

[@HyperVillainy]

This is the most amazingly brutal takedown of Campbell I’ve ever seen, read, or heard!! These videos were so freakin’ good! Instant subscribe!

[@JessieGender1]

This was a great video, with so many great things to say... but also I could not get out of my mind the fact that the picture of James Joyce at 7:41 looks like Matt Smith...

[@platypuspracticus2]

10:21 in which joseph campbell confuses "artist" and "psychopath".

[@Wincenworks]

Thank you for this amazing breakdown. I have to admit I never understood the significance of the Monomyth in culture because to me it always seems like it makes fun stories precisely because it is detached from reality - its very good to know that the creator and his cult think its not only real but that it takes priority over basic social values because they too are detached from reality (though sadly often authority figures in reality).

[@ryanmoore6259]

I can't help but think that Maggie is overstating her case. Some basic elements are fine.

[@manderly33]

Joseph Campbell has MASSIVE Jordan Peterson vibes holy shit. Or, you know, the other way around.

[@dalton-at-work]

whichever way, they're both sure they're the main character

[@geylforcewynd]

thank you for doing the research and making this video. i discovered joseph campbell in the 90s in middle school and was so excited to find language to talk about stories. I heavily used his language when writing essays in english class and got lots of praise from my teachers probably because it made things sound smart. However, I always felt there was something sketchy underlying his theory of the monomyth and kind of slowly abandoned it as a personal method for lookeing at stories. I never knew there had been such critique from his students and the cultures he took stories from. Thanks for shining some light on this!

[@ZGMFX28ANuLiberty]

I needed this today. Really, REALLY needed this. Thank you, Maggie Mae Fish.

[@Blutzen]

I loved the first video and I love this second one, you did a great job pointing out the (many) flaws of Joey C's theories, and this will be a great resource to link to people when I don't have the energy to explain it all myself, so thank you.

[@Halexx76]

The last 5-10 minutes were very powerful. You put to words a lot of things I feel about the world and how others project their ideas onto you as a woman. Thank you for another great video, Maggie.

[@mikylabethune6265]

Okay, so I'll be quite honest with you. When you said that those same men will no longer be our classmates, but " people who hold real power who cannot wait to make you their prize at the end of their hero's journey" I couldn't help but cringe at that. Not because it isn't true, but as someone who is just twenty years old in DC I have already been confronted by men with powerful positions who have made it clear that I am not worth it for my intelligence, but that I am something that they just simply project sexual fantasies onto. Long story short this older man while on the metro who was a big shot up on DC kept trying to persuade me to be his. He said he would buy me these expensive things, take me places, and help my career. Me, being an idiot took his offer for coffee and bought my resume with me so we can talk about my job prospects in the future. Yet, all he could do was make note of how "exotic" I look and how he had "so much stamina" and could "shoulder my burdens with his strong arms" (his words not mine.) Even though I refused to see him afterwards the fact that he kept pestering me and calling me like I was owed to him (as if I was some price at the end of his journey -since he was 68 and I am just 20) I still feel like I was a blank slate and an object and I hate how on the head you called this out. Either way loved the analysis.

[@Ancusohm]

I've heard several criticisms of the Hero's Journey, but how am I just now hearing that its creator was a Nazi apologist?! Thank you so much for this series. I new the theory was full of holes, but, wow, I didn't know it was all /this/ bad.

[@SallySueSaywhatagain]

I remember first coming across Joseph Campbell in a community college mythology class and feeling very not-right about basically everything he said. Unfortunately for me, I was 15 at the time and in a classroom of adults who were all much more articulate (and moved) by that PBS special, so I never felt allowed to voice my not-right feelings. I guess what I'm saying is thanks from silenced 15 year old me for putting so much of those not-right feelings into words in this essay!

[@failedpriest976]

Even if we look exclusively at Greek heroic myths, they often include a coda in which the hero is killed indirectly by their past deeds. Odysseus is killed by his son with Circe in a dockside quarrel, unaware of who took his life; Jason is struck by a piece of the decaying Argo as he sits alongside it, lost in nostalgia; Herakles is poisoned with his own preferred poison. While these stories can be seen as exclusively about exceptional individuals, heroes also pointedly tend to die in folly, in a manner that inverts the triumph of their quest: greatness is fleeting and contextual. Hector, Achilles, Ajax, Patrocles...their deaths are sad and senseless even though they are heroes. Campbell is doing survivorship bias even inside of texts to reach his conclusion. The monomyth elects to just cut away the parts of questing tales it uses as examples. So many of the myths Campbell cites talk about forces outside of the control of the heroes--fate, the divine, dharma, the inevitability of error and misunderstanding because of the limited nature of man, the cycles of politics and social order, etc--and these elements are pointedly present in the emic interpretation of the text, there to demonstrate that even exceptional figures are subject to wider systems: they may act but they are also acted upon. And those stories exist alongside tragedy and horror stories where the protagonist is only present as a subject to larger forces--doomed, cursed, haunted, fatally flawed--but the forces at play are the same ones within hero stories of the same cultural milieu.

[@thehorriblebright]

1. To quote the dwarven god Tak, from Terry Pratchett's Discworld novels: Tak does not require we think of him, only that we think. 2. Love the Neil Gaiman shout out.

[@TheDeekins]

I wish I could've watched this when I was 18. Brilliantly done.

[@AtotheDamn]

these two videos were amazing. they really have sparked thoughts & perspective that I know I'll be thinking about for a long time after watching them. thank you for this.

[@danletchworth2247]

I'm still mad that my US public school education made sure everyone knew that the Nazis burned books containing "threatening ideas," but never once mentioned what those ideas were. (A completely accidental oversight, I'm sure.)

[@raywoodward1967]

Absolutely love this video. Campbell's ideas (although that's rather overstating them) are so utterly reductionist and banal they have the taste and texture of processed cheese - much like the movie writing they seem to result in (and I'm including Star Wars in this, films which I loved as a kid but which I just don't love as much as films like Some Like It Hot, Dr Strangelove, Catch-22 and, a guilty pleasure Kiss Kiss, Bang Bang). But I also wanted to say that as someone who's a consumer of films and in no way a critic and someone who enjoys writing but struggles as a writer these videos helped me enormously because Cambell's model is so complete and utter nonsense. Even better that they're demolished so comprehensively by a, gasp!, woman. Keep up the great work (and your Nebula videos are fantastic btw!).

[@ryanmoore6259]

That's only if they're treated as the be all and end all. If you see it as A method it can work and does make some good points. And honestly Star Wars is still a classic, partially because it relies on other ideas and when it does use the HJ does so in a general way (i.e the general steps of a hero leaving overcoming obstacles and returning home changed.

[@mahatmarandy5977]

Campbell’s whole “we must respect German culture” thing is interesting, as, 30 years ago, through my job at the time, I happened to know a lot of German guys who were involved in World War II. Not German-American guys, like my uncle (who fought against the fascists) but actual German Germans from Germany who fought against the fascists. One if my favorite people was Helmuth Wilhelm Katz (can’t get much more German than that, and BTW, he was not Jewish, though I know Katz is frequently a Jewish name here in the ‘States. He was Lutheran). His family moved to the US when he was 10. Pearl Harbor happened when he was 16. The very next Monday he blew off school went down to the recruiting office and said, “I want to go to Europe and fight the Nazis. I speak fluent German, so I imagine that would be useful to the Army.” And indeed it was. Though he was under age, the army needed a lot of people and hurry, and he was very tall for his age so they just pretended they didn’t know any better. One time I asked him if he ever had any misgivings about fighting his own people. He said, “No. Germans are a great people with a lot to contribute to the world, but the people in charge - the Nazis - they were the *wrong* kinds of Germans, they were giving us a bad name, and I wasn’t about to let that happen. And anybody who fought FOR them - they were the wrong kinds of Germans, too.” In my mind, there’s a guy who truly did respect German culture enough to put his life on the line for four years in order to preserve it. Unlike fuckwit Campbell

[@Leezyfbaby95]

This masterpiece is criminally under viewed. I love all your videos you’re a huge inspiration for me I hope to make videos as insightful and powerful as yours one day.

[@yourlocalnerd7788]

I don't think I've suffered that much, but what I can say is what I've gone through didn't make me a better person. If anything it has just made me trust people less, and feel like shit everytime I get so stressed out I cry.

[@matthewreeves6084]

Ok, so it actually made you stronger, you admitted as much yourself. You see, in your situation, “ it has just made me trust people less” the stronger part. Because of the bad thing you went through, you have now sharpened your trust perception to be better at detecting who to trust and who not to trust. This is how that aphorism works. It works on the philosophical level, not the literal level. You went through something bad ( what ever doesn’t kill you), and now you are more equipped and informed on how to deal with that bad thing should it come up again (makes you stronger). It is mind blowing how many people are missing the point of this aphorism.

[@Manas-co8wl]

@@matthewreeves6084 You mean wiser. And that's only in theory. Maybe it's sometimes applicable/practical to treat your brain like it's some big data pool being able to parse people better and better with more encounters. But human biology is also capable of traumas which leads to irrational fears, phobias, obsessions, and subconscious stains that people can do without to live a better smoother life. One really bad day can leave an imprint on you that does not reflect the color of most days. That one day or two can rule over you and the rest of your life, instead of the other way around. It's tempting to think experience alone creates wisdom, especially if you had a hard life. Believe me, I've been there. But in reality it takes a lot of soul-searching and effort to truly make that wisdom yours to accomodate into your daily life. It takes work & effort; and as with every day reality, sometimes your best effort is not good enough. As with all trials, some of them may be too far out of our league. Until then, the best we can do is to set it aside until we do actually become 'stronger.' But it's a bit erroneous to think experience itself automatically grants you wisdom/strength. That's not always the case, and believing so _could_ lead to a certain dangerous naivety.

[@stephenmitchell8111]

I have heard a lot of people criticize the Mono-myth without any sort of argument that held up. I like thinking of the Mono-myth as a theory of storytelling instead of just as a rule. This is the first time I've heard any kind of deconstruction of the mono-myth that absolutely kills it! Love this.

[@fede2]

I think at the heart of these types of narratives (Hero's journey, Great man) is the conviction that the world is more or less a simple place. It works as kind of a defense mechanism when confronted with a world that presents itself as complex, unpredictable and largely beyond our understanding. I think we all have that impulse, since accepting the inherent complexity of the world is often not fun. The problem is when we completely succumb to that existential panic and start to see others (a reminder of that complexity we're trying to stave off) as a threat.

[@punchingmonsters9846]

I'm really curious if this isn't a weird disparity between film programs and literary fiction programs. I was a film student at community college in 2001 and he came up all the time. Six years later I went to a university and did a CW: Fiction program and he never came up once but The Carrier Bag Theory of Fiction was prominently featured.

[@MantasticHams]

As a teen i was low-key obsessed with carl jung and by proxy had an interest in JC. I had all these plans to make an album based on the heros journey, and ultimately i came to realize that the story that played out in my head was much more a subversion of the journey than anything else, and in fact, my hero character was purposefully stupid, and i had put all my actual IRL features on the lady character who would have been the damsel in distress in a normal hero's journey. In my story, "The Seer" dug herself down into a cave and lived there alone forever just to get away from the hero and his shadow XD The whole process of writing it out, and identifying with her over any of the other characters eventually helped me to realize i was non binary lol, JC would hate that!

[@sabretoo]

Omg that's awesome!!!🥰🥰🥰

[@cambriaofthevastoceans6721]

I always ended up writing female mains, just realized i was trans 2 years ago. Funny how long you can mask that from yourself

[@michellebrowne9100]

This actually sounds like a good story. Maybe you should publish it!

[@justaguypassing3rough]

im currently really interested in jung and am curious in how your views of his work have changed. could you share some nuance?

[@BlackTestament]

Lmao absolutely based

[@yuin3320]

I always despised the monomyth idea, no matter how often people told me how true it is, and I'm so glad to see someone manage to dig deeper than a passive hate like i had and manage to make something much more positive and inspirational than it. What an awesome video

[@ryanmoore6259]

To say Campbell’s books have no value for the author because they create a system and a monomyth definition is at best ignorant, is potentially misguided, and is at worst a downright refusal to face the facts.

[@grief_hammer]

Like a lot of men, I imbued the basics of this mythology from a young age, and had to live through all it's shortcomings before realising the how limiting was it's breadth. Now my youth is all gone, and much of it wasted, but I have come to terms with this at least. Great video.

[@MrPiccoloku]

"The dude just doesn't listen"

[@thehightower5579]

So by his definition Charles Dickens was doing it wrong by daring to do social criticism. Incredible

[@MWB_FoolsParadisePictures]

As someone who recently took several screenwriting courses in film school, I really appreciate this analysis. In my school's defense, the cinema history classes did go over the fact that other cultures have alternative story structures. But we were not taught those with the same amount of depth.

[@frankthatank4900]

Your videos always make my day no matter the topic looking forward to the next one.

[@chrisbuchanan8579]

This is an excellent essay. What stood out to me the most was your use of Campbell's quotes- You walked the tightrope of keeping them short enough to keep me engaged, yet thorough enough to make it hard for anyone defending him to say he was taken out of context.

[@earlworth]

You so succinctly expressed just how I and so many other guys internalise Cambell's ideas, implicitly viewing their own plight as some sort of path to enlightenmen, only to end up profoundly disappointed and emotionally in a far worse place than before, all the time, as you say, viewing women as a prize and imposing their own narrative on to them. I'm now going to read the Heroine's journey, please do add the other links if you get time. Wow, I feel like this video just took me on its own journey, I had always felt like there was something wrong with them, and now I know why!

[@ItWasBetterBefore]

I like to think the secret purpose of these videos is explaining why Star Wars fanboys hated The Last Jedi so much.

[@drewwendell]

"A quick and safe trip into myth, with no risk and no transformation" pretty much nails the entire new trilogy so... maybe?

[@ldbruzzi6622]

Snorting something “through one nostril” is actually how snorting things works. Have you ever tried snorting something through both nostrils? Much less effective.

[@andrewjmichael]

Been hearing about Joseph Campbell my whole life, but this is the first time I've heard anyone point out the paradox about his worldview; basically, he's saying "do what thou will should be the whole of the law, but only within the bounds of status quo." He constructed a system into which he crammed every cultural narrative and insisted upon the homogeneity of their composition and structure, but still saw himself as a 'maverick' who bucked trends and advised against 'taking Dad's advice.' Contemporaries like Orwell were writing innovative and imaginative stories which were not only critical and commercial successes, but also defy the arbitrary story structure Campbell insisted upon [somebody tell me how the character of Winston Smith or the plot of Animal Farm match up to Campbell's diagram], while at the same time critiquing prevailing political ideologies. Campbell saw himself as someone who bucked the system, but still had to compliment the sky scrapers when he felt he was getting too close to any kind of critique of our cultural ethos. Thanks for the video, Maggie, and for pointing all this out so well.

[@sabrinabeeart]

So about the brothers grimm...I'm german and studied folklore at uni and yeah they weren't preserving german culture (which in itself is a nebulous concept). the reason why we think about the brothers grimm the way we do, them strolling through the countryside and collecting og german tales from the german population, is marketing. they perpetuated this idea in the foreword of the multiple and heavily edited editions of their fairytales. and I think Disney did the rest. absolute novel length comment ahead, I'm sorry lol so in the early 19th century when the brothers grimm were first publishing their story collections, there was a lot of academic interest in german folklore and traditions. the French revolution had just happened and all over Europe the idea of "the nation", a concept that would connect a specific group of people with almost a mythic sense of purpose and destiny, was spreading. theories and songs were written, debates were held, all that stuff. the idea of a german nation was new and exciting and maybe there wasn't even a need for the aristocracy anymore, maybe the people should govern themselves. you know, that kind of dangerous thinking. the question was, who belongs to this idea of "the german people"? (and this question would never come back to haunt us again.) that's where the interest in folklore and german tales initially came from. multiple collections of tales had been published prior to the grimms tales which much success. People were looking for a german identity, the underlying connection. our customs might slightly be different, but our stories are the same kinda vibe. enter our bois wilhelm and jakob. they were born into an upper class family of solicitors, studied law themselves and then worked at a library for a while before they later worked at a university. all that to say, they were of a certain educated, wealthy class of people with Christian values and connections to other wealthy, educated people with Christian values. they lived in Hesse, which is still one of the sixteen federal states today and only one part of Germany and that is where they worked too. the brothers grim were looking for a specific type of story, a complete story with beginning, middle and end with themes and structure. preferably it should be lyrical and beautiful too. they tried to model their stories after some they found in a different (and successful) collection and they expected to find such stories when they first started working. but folklore is messy and rarely produces this kind of story. most of actual german folktales are straight up horror stories without any kind of theme or moral of the story, but that wasn't what the brothers grimm were looking for. they were romantics and what they found didn't fit their idea of idyllic countryside and simple life. they didn't talk to the peasant population because they didn't know any. they were rich city people with rich friends. they cite one lady as source for some of their stories and there is debate whether she was a working class acquaintance or whether they made her up. the actual sources for these tales were the grimm family friends, who were of french heritage and, like them, upper class educated people. that's why there are so many tales that are so similar to french fairytales. even if the brothers grimm went out into the countryside, they would have collected but a tiny snapshot of german folklore specific to the region of Hesse. Germany is not a homogeneous culture and folktales are usually very specific to a region, tied to landmarks and known persons of that area and such. I know people like to think of Germany as the land of dirndl and lederhosen and beer and well nope that's not it. (dirndl and tracht originating so rich late 19th century city people could essentially cottagecore larp is one of the many things wrong with that image but that's a different KZbin dissertation lmao). the important thing to take away from this ramble is that the grimms fairytales are not german folklore. and then we get to the issue of them heavily editing the stories, especially from the second edition onwards. evil mothers were turned into stepmothers, all mentions of sa and r*pe were rewritten and the iconic phrases "once upon a time" and "they lived happily ever after" were added which made the stories immediately recognisable and gave rhythm and structure to the reading, or listening, experience. Christian values and morals were added to the tales. children's literature, as far as it existed then, was understood to teach young minds. stories should have lessons the child could learn and there should always be a moral of the story. the brothers grimm very consciously altered the stories to fit the demand of the customers, and it worked. the collections sold worldwide, we are still talking about them today. brilliant marketing, but no preservation of "from the people collected german folktales". anyway, that's it. congrats for reading this long comment. I hope you can take something away from this :) oh and I'm not defending Joseph Campbell here. on the contrary, I think the brothers grimm are just another example of some dudes imposing their own beliefs on mythology and folklore while disregarding everything that doesn't fit into the mold.

[@nomchonks]

dang I did not know any of that

[@sabrinabeeart]

@@nomchonks when I first found out I was so disappointed. The brothers grimm heavily supported the narrative of them collecting og german tales to a point where there are big oil paintings of them walking the countryside and talking to peasants when that never happened. These pictures were painted in like the 1850s too, long after the first editions were published. I'm honestly in awe of such self-mythologising.

[@MaggieMaeFish]

Thank you so much for this context! Yeah I didn't feel qualified to pass judgement on their work so I tried not to also "endorse" them -- this is great context, do you have any links handy I can add to the bibliography? (No worries if not, I just don't want ppl to miss this info if it gets buried on comments!) ❤️💕

[@sabrinabeeart]

@@MaggieMaeFish yes, though my sources are in german and some of the historical context is just something I remember from school so any general work on european/german history will have that information I think. I specifically read 'Die Märchen der Gebrüder Grimm: Eine Einführung' by Heinz Rölleke who is one of the leading scholars in german studies and especially folklore and fairytales. Couldn't find a translation of his work, unfortunately. 'Fairytales: A new history' by Ruth B. Bottigheimer seems to be in a similar vein, but I haven't read that one so take it with a grain of salt. Thought I'd include it anyway for the interested anglophone. I really liked the video. The reductive and immovable structure of the hero's journey always felt strange to me. Didn't know the dude was a n*zi apologist either. For some reason people like to sweep such tiny details under the rug..

[@elenahoyer9411]

@@sabrinabeeart thanks for this wonderful comment. I didn't know that, but somehow always knew the Grimms didn't "fit" the folk cultures of what is now Germany.