Magic State of Design 2022 | EDHRECast 225

Head designer Mark Rosewater recently released an article about the successes, pitfalls, and lessons learned from Magic products in 2022. Let's see whether we agree with Wizards, or if we have different takeaways!
State of Design Article: magic.wizards.com/en/articles...
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[@bradpeterson3696]

I think the main issue with Baldur’s Gate is the price. It’s like paying $10 for a pack of Dragon’s Maze and feels bad. The set itself is fun, but it’s really hard to pull any value.

[@Hexatomb]

I got over 20 heap gates from one box of Baldur's Gate. It was often the only commons I got in a pack.

[@Wojtek36762]

Agreed, the set only feels like a fair price if you draft prerelease packs with store prize support, and then it’s functionally 5 packs and a promo card for $25. Retail price on these is silly, set boosters are 15 cards and should be normal set booster price, and draft boosters only very slightly more than that since they’ve got double rares but mostly oriented for limited. I do enjoy the draft experience but it’s hard to find people to do it partly because of the price.

[@mrpandabites]

This. The problem is not with the fact it had no reprints. It isn't with the fun factor or power-level. Both of those were great in my opinion. The problem is with the disingenuous way the set was sold as a premium product.

[@svenvannimwegen4936]

Yeah the pricing of products seems to high for what you get. So I'm starting to proxy more and more

[@masterthnag105]

@@svenvannimwegen4936 if a card is 30$ or more you can just get 108 copies made for about the same price so why bother getting a real one right????

[@pistolpete7422]

I think you guys are missing the point on backwards compatible: They don’t care about Legacy, Vintage, Modern impacts, that’s not the lesson they learned. They are specifically talking about the community backlash to mechanics like Day/Night. None of the new werewolves work the same way as the old ones do, and you’re warping how your game plays out with 2 sets of transform rules. It leads to confusion during gameplay. Being conscious of this in the future will make returning to planes feel more cohesive.

[@Dubi264]

I loved how in the "too much goad" section you brought up a commander that goads AND makes treasures

[@elijahdavila3684]

I somewhat disagree on the Baldur's Gate reprint point. Despite being a DnD set it was also a Commander Legends set. I don't think it's unreasonable for players to expect commander focused reprints in a set focused on commander.

[@danacoleman4007]

Agree 100%

[@BDi321]

Part of the issue with the title is it gives the impression that WotC doesn't have plans to print another "Commander Legends" set for a while when there's obviously demand.

[@av110386]

Is it wrong to think that Commander Legends Balders gate is going to have reprints when the first commander legends had around 200, while this one only had around 50

[@WoundedDuckify]

My thoughts exactly. Yes they never said it would have as many reprints, but people expected a similar experience to the previous commander legends set, which this did not provide.

[@bonidc6732]

Not only the quantity but the quality of reprints when the best reprint in your COMMANDER focused set is the Myriad equipment it really dissapoints costumers

[@OneoftheVoice]

Well when they announced the first commander legend's set, they mentioned the reprints as their own thing. We as a community determined that it would be like MH, some reprints, some new cards.

[@maxberry7908]

The "they never said they were going to include reprints" thing feels... defensive. Using the same name as something carries more expectation with it than just being draftable in the same format.

[@rainmaker709]

BFBG was a great set. If it had been labeled as a commander set and not a Commander Legends set and also been a standard $4 pack instead of $10+ then it would have done very well. Those 2 things are what set the unrealistic expectations and really crippled any chance of a good reception. If I go into a restaurant and order a $30 steak and you serve me a burger, I am going to be upset. Doesn't matter if it is a damn good burger made with steak. It is still overpriced and not what I ordered.

[@brunocarranzaaragon921]

That and the fact that is was extremely different from the first Commander Legends, they shouldn't expectat us to Just take it and be happy with it.

[@marauder340]

I felt my blood pressure shoot up being reminded of how done dirty I felt as a big fan of Werewolves when MID came out. It made sense at the time that they were going to try such differing focuses on the two sets since it felt like a "block" without being officially called a block and would provide sufficient support to the mechanics in them so hooray on the buy-in until we saw what actually was in there.

[@Ixidora]

Agreed, it was also some sneaky bull that they put the best new werewolves in Crimson Vow. Like wtf, why?

[@marauder340]

@@Ixidora Just makes the mismatched expectations because of their marketing even worse, too. But what really drove it home was also the lack of a werewolf commander precon. Considering how far ahead they design these things, I feel bad that their only reason for not having one is how difficult it would be to make due to the mechanics they designed for em.

[@Ixidora]

@@marauder340 I'll be honest, the lack of a werewolf precon actually got trauma levels of buried in my memory and I'm pretty sure my blood pressure just hit like 240/160 from remembering that.... Let's put it this way, werewolves are my favorite tribe since MERFOLK and if I talked further about how upsetting that missing precon was I would possibly incriminate myself in some way.

[@marauder340]

@@Ixidora Hahaha, I feel you. I couldn't care that Tovolar was a homerun commander option. I had hoped a precon could make it so that the transformation requirements weren't as clunky or made it worth in value to suit a format like EDH. It all just turned me off on building the deck entirely and maybe someday I'll get back to it, but for now it can wait.

[@Ixidora]

@@marauder340 I get that, I've felt that way about a couple of tribes before(dinosaurs being a big one, I was absent from magic for all of that standard). I just couldn't resist the call of my feral wolfpack because original Innistrad was one of my favorite standard rotations of all time (alongside Lorwyn-Alara, though for different reasons) entirely on the back of werewolves. I hope you give it a go, because honestly, it is definitely one of my favorite mid-range decks and sometimes it just slaps HARD and it is so much fun to pilot(despite tracking two different sets of transformation mechanics).

[@zachevans2220]

I think WotC’s lesson on expectations was something they should learn, even if you think they didn’t earn it. They can’t control player expectations, but they can try to anticipate such & work around it. Meanwhile, using the Commander Legends label suggested that CLB would have a similar mission & design philosophy as CMR, and it didn’t. Whether that’s a good thing or not (Dana’s “paternalistic” point is well-taken), the use of the name set players up to expect CLB to be, at least in a broad sense, just like CMR. And what did players remember about CMR? It had multiple high-value reprints, multiple format staples (both new & old), and a lot of designs players found interesting. CLB definitely fell flat on reprints in comparison to CMR, and I guess a lot of players were less than thrilled on the other points. As to the “product overload/competition” argument Joey made, I think that only applies in the sense that players want singles prices to go down, and CLB was more likely to achieve that than 2X2 because it had a higher supply & lower relative cost. Also, rather than either/or on reprints in those two sets, why not both/and? Why not, for example, move Dockside Extortionist to CLB & put Chalice of the Void or the Emrakul from EMN in 2X2?

[@thomasstenson7989]

Great cast guys! I agree with Joey. Product overload. Not enough time between sets to truly appreciate it.

[@MacPlaysRed]

I compare Commander Legends and Baldur's gate. That said, Baldur's gate was hugely disappointing. The first one gave us so many cool options in and out of the 99. I am still excited to open up Commander Legends whereas I completely skip Baldur's gate.

[@sheahon1179]

Ok so this deserves it's own comment. Can we please stop getting one set per plane?? Like I completely agree with you all on this. 100% Kamigawa needed at least 2 sets, I mean this is the first time we are seeing a cyberpunk world in magic and we definitely needed at least 2 sets to figure out what was happening with the Asari uprising and how Jin-Gitaxias fit into it and there was a whole thing with the Wandering Emperor and Satoru and we needed more time. And unfortunately as much as it pains me to admit it, my home plane of Innistrad didn't need two sets. I WISH IT DID. I wish we had enough interesting story to require two sets but it definitely didn't. Meanwhile Kaldhiem definitely needed at least 2. But New Cappena didn't

[@Badassest]

I would love to see more sets (block theme) from a single plane as well

[@andrewp979]

100% agree. Kaldheim and Kamigawa definitely could have used more than 1 set. They were interesting planes with a very cool and unique aesthetic, interesting characters and more story to tell.

[@pauldyson8098]

Baldur's Gate was awesome. The price, not so much. The draft experience was absolutely awesome. Calling it "Commander Legends" was weird.

[@NotAllWhoWanderAreLost641]

Agreed on all points. A bit misleading.

[@NotARealDuck]

I feel like cards were left from Baldur's Gate and put in Double Masters that could have worked thematically in the D&D setting and been great reprints for the larger commander format. Dockside, Smothering Tithe, Imperial Seal, Concordant Crossroads, Force of Negation, all could have been printed in Commander Legends. They seemingly left them out in order to pump the expected value of Double Masters at a much lower print run barely a month later.

[@brendonford3838]

My main problem with BOTH commander legends set is the emphasis they on the pull rates. 4-5 slots dedicated to guaranteed “LeGeNdAries” and then make all the chase cards non legendary and then wotc says “you’re welcome”

[@rynebillings2226]

My main issue with Commander Legends Baldur's Gate was the price. It was priced like a premium set but opening it was comparable to opening any standard set. Apart from that, I disliked that it was Baldur's Gate rather than just Forgotten Realms. I'd have much preferred legendary creatures like Artemis Entreri and Regis than a bunch of characters from some video games I've never played. I also absolutely hate the dungeon mechanic, so take the initiative being on a card guarantees I'll never run it.

[@av110386]

I ordered boxes of Commander Legends Baldur's Gate because it had the name Commander Legends on it. It was much more AFR than CL and had I know I wouldn't have bought anything. Just to say it was crap because all the good cards would be in Double Masters feels disingenuous, considering that the first Double Masters and Commander Legends were released in August and November of 2020 and they were both good sets.

[@DylanBU41]

this. this is the reply. exactly.

[@enriquemeza5291]

PRICE PRICE PRICE on baldurs gate. Why the hell did it have to be so expensive when all we got was garbage value? On average we were losing more than 70% value per pack. That’s NOT fair for a premium product.

[@CaptainTempest1]

100% agree with the sentiments about product overload. I feel like I only got to draft each set once with the amount of free time I get to spend at my LGS. There were several sets I wanted to draft more of, but they either were limited quantity and my store could only host a single event for them, or they fell off the minute the next one came out.

[@bassface1018]

I think it's a good thing we didn't get anything format warping in Baldurs Gate. In regards to player expectations though, what were we supposed to expect from it? CL1 had a ton of solid reprints, and yes also Hullbreacher and Jeweled Lotus. I don't think people felt that CL2 had enough solid reprints. There was Kindred Discovery, the Battlebond lands, Jeska's Will, and Herald's Horn. CL1 had Mana Drain, Vampiric Tutor, the completion of the Battlebond cycle, gave us Jeska's Will. I do agree though paart of the big problem was that people expected more Commander reprints and those just got dumped into Double Masters 2022 Electric Boogaloo

[@marauder340]

Baldur's Gate may as well be a standard set that could have been part 2 of a Forgotten Realms "block" in terms of theme which made it more niche than what was in CMR on top of having no much-needed reprints. That bullet point needed 3 underlines or more, IMO. As Prof said, if not here, when? Then they just milked the community by putting those in the stupidly expensive 2X2.

[@gabrielamaro1470]

I agree with your assessment. CL1 felt like a commander set because it had cards that people used in their commander decks at every rarity. Baldur's Gate doesn't have that at all, just a bunch of DND flavor that players clearly didn't care enough about

[@Zanzibawrr]

i expected to at least have a flavor homerun. gorion's ward and sarevok at uncommon? please

[@pixelbomb97]

Bramble sovereign and blade of selves were $30 cards before the reprint as well.

[@salem326]

My main problems with Commander Legends 2 at the end of the day are two-fold. The branding for it was bad, and it was Premium Priced for no reason. Commander Legends 1 was a great set, with a lot of great and powerful cards, and the branding came to be associated with powerful cards, and reprints, and a focus on the commander format. Whether you agree with that or not is moot, because that is broadly what consumers associated with the brand. Then it is WOTC's job (if they are trying to market a product ethically) to understand how consumers interpret their product line and brand their products accordingly. I knew CLB was going to be a low-power level set with minimal reprints...because WOTC off-handedly mentioned it in interviews that only the most diehard consumer fanbase read. That's not the majority of consumers, that's a small minority. The majority of consumers see the words "Commander Legends" and think to their last experience when they saw those words. This is Branding & Product Marketing 101. Secondly, it's fine to have a lower-powered product with minimal reprints, there's nothing wrong with that. But then what is the justification for the premium pricing? We know historically, booster boxes are priced based off of reprints of valuable cards and power level, as evidenced by the higher price for ever Masters set ever. So then, if CLB is going to be a lower powered set with minimal reprints...why was its initial pricing that of a more premium product? You mention asking for solutions, and frankly, because it's a great set, I don't think the biggest problems lie in game design. So, as someone who has worked in sales and marketing, here is what I would have done differently with the set: 1. Rename the set to "Adventures in Baldur's Gate" or "Baldur's Gate: A Commander Adventure" 2. Price the Draft & Set Boosters at Standard draft & Set prices. Bingo Bongo. Love the discussion, still love you guys, but I do think you are offbase with misunderstanding the reception towards CLB. It's absolutely a great set regardless, but it was marketed and priced in a way that feels almost designed to incense consumers.

[@xaxscratchxax926]

Great response 👍

[@brainpower45]

Exactly! If the set had been priced and marketed as "this is a draft focused commander version of forgotten realms" the set would have been a home run. When you put it in the release slot for a commander legends set, call it commander legends, price it as commander legends, and our only other data point for what commander legends means is that it will be full of reprints and format defining staples like hullbreacher and guardianship, people will feel bait and switched.

[@danacoleman4007]

Thank you so very much for this extremely well thought out and reasonable comment. I would like to second every bit of it!

[@andrewsparkes6275]

While Ikoria had flavour based around the three-color triomes/myths, and enough fixing to play a three-color deck in Limited, it isn't really a "three-color set". It was actually easier to play a three-color deck in Ravnica, which shows that "the number of colors you are enabled to play in Limited" does not dictate if a set is a "X-color set". Aside from a couple of rare/mythic cycles, as far as I can remember, there weren't any other three-color cards. They barely even had any two-color cards with a third-color activation cost. People misremember it based on the flavour, but mechanically, Ikoria was not a three-color set any more than any other set with a a sparse handful of three-color cycles (e.g. Core 2019 with the Kykar cycle).

[@fraziermanfull1202]

Baldur's Gate can simultaneously be fun to draft and not have earned the commander legends label. The first commander legends earned a lot of hype for its inevitable sequel. Of course expectations for Commander Legends 2 was going to be sky high. Perhaps it shouldn't have been, but it should have been expected nonetheless. Baldur's Gate has, unfortunately, tarnished the Commander Legends name I think, and I expect the player reaction to the inevitable CL3 announcement to be "eh."

[@Verygrimcoyote]

I 100% agree on spending more than one set on an entirely new realm. I so wish the days of Khans where we got to see the rise and fall of an entire plane, but now we go "oh hey the first ever cyberpunk set, better learn all of it before it's gone in two months!" I miss the storytelling of Magic sets.

[@MTGJosh]

Really awesome discussion in regards to power creep shrinking the format.

[@mn6334]

Neat. I've had all three of the Challenge the Stats cards from this episode in decks. I had the Spirit in my Marisi deck that isn't really fully together anymore, I have Adventurer in my Jan Jansen CLB set constructed deck, and I put Crippling Fear in my upgraded Lathril precon.

[@juanabreu3002]

What Joey said about transparency is absolutely true and is something Magic players should really treasure more. Alongside Magic, I play Yugioh, Digimon, and some Pokemon TCG. Konami, Bandai-Namco, and Pokemon Company are NOT transparent about the decisions they make in their card games, there is very little community participation and outreach besides tournaments, and we don't get information on card designs, archetypes, etc. I don't know if it's because they're Japanese companies and WOTC is US (different expectations, consumer expectations) or it's another factor, but Magic players have it extremely good when it comes to community interaction.

[@garlicxlr]

idk. I think I'd rather have a soulless, voiceless designer like Konami over selfrightious Mark Rosewater who constantly run his mouth about everything. Especially when it amount to "I'm sorry you feel that way."

[@NotAllWhoWanderAreLost641]

Just because they have some level of transparency doesn’t mean they are really hearing the many concerns over the direction WOTC has headed in the Hasbro era. The professor does a good job putting these concerns out there in his content that represents a huge part of the silent majority of players

[@mfitkin]

Ahhhh just another reason Friday is the best weekday

[@sheahon1179]

I agreed with almost everything you and wizards said about the general overview and color pie changes. But specifically with Baldur's Gate, I really felt that it was a great D&D set and not a Commander Legends set. While it did have some meaningful reprints, Double Masters had so much more and better quality ones. Commander as a format really benefits more than maybe any other format from big reprints. So when you say that it was just a labeling thing or that they never promised reprints you are correct but that doesn't change the fact that this set had more to do with D&D than it did with Commander. So much so that Double Masters is a better set for commander than Baldur's Gate was. And I thought that pretty much all of the lessons that Wizards put out really resonated with me as things I wish they had done differently or things I hope they do differently. Though absolutely the conversation can run out of reason if you think that for a set to be good it must add new "auto-includes" because I completely disagree with that notion. And to Joey's point I actually do agree to some extent, that those sets were just rapid fire that month is just accurate. As for the "Commander players don't know what's good for the game argument". Maybe? Like I am not a game designer, but I am a commander player who doesn't have a huge budget. I still want to play with cards like Dockside Extortionist, Parallel Lives, Phyrexian Altar, and big eldrazi. So if WotC is going to reprint them I'd prefer that they do so In a full run, without supply issues brought about by a scarcity that is artificial. I recognize that this is inherent to magic, but where it can be avoided it should be. I loved Neon Dynasty. Isshin is glorious, Goshinti is powerful and I love it as facilitating the 5 color shrine and saga decks. Shorikia, is super fun as a vehicle commander, and Satoru Umezawa is spectacular. I absolutely think that set should have had a double printing and just sat with us for a couple months. And I was super skeptical of a cyberpunk set in magic but it felt perfectly right and was actually superfun.

[@thischannelhasnocontent8629]

I think the problem is that Wizards thinks Commander Legends means "A set you draft for commander" and players think it means "A set with tons of good sought-after reprints and super pushed new cards for commander." I think the flaws of CLB are actually problems with original Commander Legends, because the set they made wasn't what they seemed to want it to be.

[@egoish6762]

The dragons are cool but for me the best cards in the set were in the precons, i think it would be better if those made for precon cards at least showed up in a set. I didn't hate the set but there was very little i wanted from it, one draft was fun but i'd rather play 1v1 draft personally.

[@unforgivable6164]

I really didn’t like baldurs gate when it came out. But I’m hindsight I’m using baldurs gate cards from common to mythic in a lot of my decks. It would have been much better without so many chump rares and those awful brown cards and a background in EVERY pack.

[@styfen]

People don't want 'a new jewelled lotus' they want reprints of it. The cat's already out of the bag for cards like this, they're powerful, popular commander cards and they should be printed into the ground the way that Sol Ring was.

[@dorsalfin22]

I much prefer the designs of older mechanics being batched together or given a new spin like with Chishiro and modified, Faldorn and all the exile based mechanics like suspend, cascade, etc., Historic, and tribal batchings like Party, as opposed to parasitic mechanics like cleave or mutate you have to constantly learn for each new plane.

[@Bongus_Bubogus]

The reason I didn’t like Commander Legends 2 was because I wanted more non-Commander reprints in the subsequent Masters set. We seriously didn’t need 2 Commander sets, it could’ve just been one single Commander set and both sets together reprint even more cards, cheapening Magic as a whole. This is coming from someone who can’t convince people to play the game because they think spending over $10 on a deck is a sham.

[@ty_sylicus]

Why read a long article when I can listen to you three? Thanks!

[@av110386]

The fact that these "triomes" don't have a more generic name means they aren't easy to reprint. And what is it about this lounge that makes it create a black blue or red mana?

[@pixelbomb97]

I mean literally luxury seating makes black and red. I'm guessing Xander's Lounge has a few coffee table art books and that's what adds blue.

[@draftmagicagain1000]

@@pixelbomb97 Easy.

[@unforgivable6164]

What’s complex about kamigawa? Ninjutsu? I thought it was pretty simple compared to new capenna

[@dorsalfin22]

Agreed. I loved the overlap between artifacts and enchantments and thought Kamigawa was a very strategic set, but that doesn't make it complex. New Capenna on the other than introduced 5 new mechanics all at once with overlap between each shards two neighboring shards and that was WAY more mental effort for me personally.

[@unforgivable6164]

@@dorsalfin22 totally. There’s cards in new capenna that I won’t even bother with like the voting commander tivit.

[@andrewhiatt112]

How much to get you guys to schill Homelands or Fallen Empires

[@draken882000]

Ok, I'm going to be THAT guy. I think you're wrong about people's expectations of Commander Legends: Baldur's Gate. I think people absolutely SHOULD have certain expectations when the pattern is set up the way it was. I also think the name was a deliberate ploy to sell a weak set as a strong one. Now we know, anything named Dungeons and Dragons in the future is going to be a weaker set, and anything else attached to it is just a marketing ploy.

[@xaxscratchxax926]

Bingo!

[@danacoleman4007]

You are by no means alone in your assessments here

[@rainmaker709]

I think that the point of not calling BFBG a Commander Legends set really wooshed over some of your heads. Matt says that the disappointment was self imposed. No. Just so much no. They called it a Commander Legends set. That IS what set the expectations of good reprints/good value/old returning characters. It's like calling a race a F-1: something something derby. You would go in expecting a derby with F-1 cars. Instead you get a normal derby that they have just slapped F-1 branding on every surface and have speakers making vroom-vroom sounds.

[@jacobdavis9424]

The first set only had a few high value reprints though. Just the few specific ones were really solid. Otherwise it kind of followed a similar style to the first set. As far as "old returning characters" please correct me if I'm wrong, those were all in Collector boosters no? In my opinion the words "commander legends" means a set for commander with a bunch of legendary creatures in it. Which it definitely was. However I wouldn't have mind if it was called: "Commander Draft" or something.

[@jacobdavis9424]

I guess there were more than a few reprints lol, I was wrong on that.

[@NotAllWhoWanderAreLost641]

I think you guys needed to address the insane costs of magic product due to Hasbro raising pricing in an already record sales year. Just 4 packs in the new collector boosters? Come on now

[@Millus1987]

I really liked the Baldur's Gate set, it was very fun and a lot of the legends are very interesting.

[@BDi321]

Regarding Dana's comment around the 23:00 mark, I think it sucks for WotC to print a card like Dockside Extortionist that becomes a staple almost overnight and keep the supply so limited. It got printed in a precon and only reprinted in this year's Double Masters as a mythic.

[@jakecrowther6927]

I just want to put this out there, but I have drafted Commander Legends Baldur's Gate and it was one of the worst experiences of my magic time. I hated initiative and thought it was over complicated. I was so excited that they brought back Myriad, but They could have done a ton more with Myriad!! Also, I'm not a huge fan of backgrounds. There was also almost no value unless you pull one of the 5 Ancient dragons.

[@Syncopiia]

They're tag teaming you with the dad jokes now. Lol

[@leonfriedemann9151]

I think they led us to believe their would be reprints or lots of valuable cards in the set with the higher price plus the first CL was a big reprint set as I remember. I like a lot of the new arts for arcane signet and the diamonds. Their are a couple of cool cards in it. I like Balor a loot. But for me their are just to many dragons in it and I expected at least a couple more big reprints. So by now picking up the old commander legends has more value Stil when you are about to fining strong expensive cards. And the draft might have been fun, but therefore the boosters are to expensive.

[@leonfriedemann9151]

Added the elder dragons are super cool designs, but them beeing so scares, makes them to expensive to enjoy them as fun cards. They are not as powerful and paying that much for a card that is more fun than powerful I don't know... I think wizards knows that a lot of people expected big reprints after the first commander legends. I saw commander legends as a reprint set for commander, like how modern horizons is for modern and such. And I am not going to to pay an upprice for a set with Standart level power cards in it.

[@DarthChocolate15]

I'm just annoyed that the dragons, which are cool casual creatures, cost so much. The pack price, rare distribution, and lack of value reprints (and "new competitive staples") to soak up set value, all lead to those being expensive.

[@jamesgratz4771]

I agree. They’re not 20 dollar cards. They’re like 4 dollar mythics but the price is artificial

[@Naturessightsandsounds7040]

If your not cheating them in then your playing them wrong

[@jamesgratz4771]

@@Naturessightsandsounds7040 that isn’t always consistent

[@spudster8887]

@@Naturessightsandsounds7040 if you are cheating them in you're mostly playing them wrong because better cards exist. They have rare homes but for the most part all 5 are chaff mythics

[@Badassest]

I would like to see a completion of the shard keyword creatures like lightning angel:)

[@okgut2033]

I think its bad to say if we have 3 Highlights we need 3 Lessons. You dont need to force the same amount of good/bad things if there isnt.

[@drinkupnerds]

Innistrad should've been midnight hunt as a large set and crimson vow as a small expansion set. It didn't have enough going on to justify being it's own set.

[@Zanzibawrr]

my biggest problem is magic is, and i know i'm gonna sound gatekeepy here, is the mass appeal and the constant vomiting of set after set and product after product. i feel it really degrades the integrity and immersion in the game, it's lore and flavor. it feels like quantity over quality. set doesn't work? doesn't matter we have a new product in a few weeks, new spoilers, new announcement, etc. i don't think that making disposable sets is healthy for the game. i hope they begin to wind down and focus on the quality of the game, but corpo gonna corpo so that probably won't happen.

[@danacoleman4007]

I don't know why anyone would think your comments sound gatekeepy. They sound spot on to me. Unfortunately, Hasbro is going to just keep milking the game for all it's worth with no consideration of its quality or durability.

[@vancejohnson5807]

I think to understand people’s problems with the legends label you just have to look at masters sets. You say masters and everyone knows what you are getting. If you use the name legends again we only have one set to go off of so you assume we are going to get pushed cards like the first set. If mh2 came out and was way weaker than 1 I assume the complaints would have been the same.

[@danacoleman4007]

Only one legends set? Better check your MTG history

[@ACertainGuy0]

Gonna counterpoint you on the "too much goad" thing: 1. WotC was making sure the mechanic which is a good thing has enough representation so people can reasonably play/build around it. 2. Goad is the single best mechanic for breaking the inane amounts of do nothing durdling nonsense that a metric ton of decks do these days. People have this serious issue with making a deck with 50 billion powercreeping utility creatures and outvaluing everyone at the table but doing nothing with the creatures combat wise. This provokes everyone to attack/remove/board wipe when a simpler answer is: Force them to fight with their utility. Make the game more interesting, make the game have some combat element to it, as that is the basis of magic. I personally am VERY happy to see more goad, as its creating ways for colors with worse representation like red to have a reliable control element. Oh you wanna sit back and do nothing behind propaganda/ghostly prison etc? Fine, YOURE gonna attack someone else then! If you wont let me in, ill make you come out!

[@danacoleman4007]

Very interesting take. I hadn't thought about it like that or experienced it that way. The thing about the mechanic is it's very controlling aka blue. It would have been cool if they could have come up with different ways for each color to do something to mitigate the problems you mentioned, but I guess that would be pretty difficult.

[@Jaketg93]

I think the name commander legends def had some in connotation that was missed. I also didn't like the having the commander set being DnD themed. It felt like many of the cards were there to hit that DnD theme, not to be commander cards. Don't get me wrong, I liked the set, but I def agree with the assessment that the name shouldn't have been commander legends

[@Eddyb1e]

Commander Legends 1 - A set with a lot of commander related cards and reprints as well as introducing a lot of MtG lore related legends. Commander Legends 2 - Not that. That’s my beef with using the commander legends name. They set a precedent for what the commander legends name meant with the first set. Then they used that name and it didn’t live up to what they gave us. If that was the intent, release the exact same product without the CL name and then there’s no problem. But I presume they didn’t and did use the CL name because they knew that’s what the public expectations would be and exploited that to sell more units.

[@catanthill]

I agree with Matt’s sentiments on Neon Dynasty. I’m glad it was 1 set.

[@Shulwelld]

New Capenna was one of the worst limited environments I’ve ever played in

[@Shulwelld]

Also, barely mentioning 2x2 masters seems like a huge oversight!

[@ValatY]

I feel as if there's generaly a shift of mood going through the general EDH community People seem to increasingly get more & more chill and understand that people have different tastes & things they enjoy Hence, more pregame talks & focus on playing games all the participants enjoy

[@serafimb2319]

"Can't be blocked by more than one creature" should get an evergreen keyword

[@serafimb2319]

Quick design example: White common creature "Honorable Duelist" 2/2 or something And the keyword mentioned above that smarter people than me will hopefully come up with

[@jaredarquette6320]

I think the only issue I had with Baldur's gate is because it felt more like a sequel to the first DnD set rather then a sequel to commander legends

[@thetruthisoutthere8714]

Commander legends 2 is like making a movie called "Top Gun 2: Gone Wild", which is all about hunting in remote wildness. It's not that people aren't interested, it's not that they didn't tell us it was going to have a theme, it's that they deceptively used the name to shoe horn people into experiencing something that they feared wouldn't get the traction without the name. If the set didn't have commander legends attached to it, it undoubtedly would have had a worse reception. Especially based off of how the first time DnD played out/was received by the players. It's a marketing scam, they know it, and admitting it doesn't make the set worse, it just puts context to why it's not performing nearly as well as the original commander legends. It's an ok set, just not what the format needed. There's MANY cards that need a reprint for this format alone, simply because of the player influx in the last 3 years. We needed that to be in this set, not just double masters.

[@dexxus8078]

So kinda like what happened with Surf's Up 2?

[@happybrain2674]

hot topic: 3 color commanders are exactly at the sweetspot if used well. why? - thats enough to not need to play staples at all (or the fewest) and still be powerfull at casual tables. means you have more space to be unice. - ofc that might change as bigger your cardpile is, but that also means you need to be able to find those cards in that huge piles. - you mostly can scrab a commanderdeck with the remaining cards you own by playing a 3 color commander. - it saves you money cause of the reasons told

[@afifthofjackgaming]

talking about a bail out with the opening bits... lol

[@jakecrowther6927]

I absolutely loved Streets of New Capenna!!!! They had amazing lore and flavor within the entire set and the mechanics played really really with already established mechanics!! So great!

[@nathanialmynameisajoke]

Kaldheim has nine realms! Nine! Did they feel well represented? No!

[@av110386]

Baldur's Gate has no value

[@RollieB89]

I agree with everything that was said but it's not worth to buy a pack Just Singles

[@SamundraDarion]

Tri-colour-wedges

[@oskardanigsecher9906]

Hobestly i'm really sad that we didn't spend more time on New Capenna, I really love the setting, and the idea of 5, 3 colour families i personally love very much. I wish we can return to new capenna in the near future and link it with the rest of the multiverse in a meaningful way.

[@psychozen7169]

For me commander legends balder gate was fine minus reprints. The cards are fine. But you cannot call it commander legends and not put commander reprints in it like the first one. You set the standard to high maybe with the first commander legends?

[@sirmoth3955]

I agree. They said WotC never promised reprints, but our only other example of a commander legends set was a big reprint set. I personally adore Baldur's Gate, but I completely understand people whose expectations were not met.

[@simoncss1]

But, don’t b, Joey. Don’t b sorry about being a broken record because it IS ABSOLUTELY Hasbro/WotC’s fault for the product overload. It is worth to no 1 over the long haul. Curse the highest brass over there who r only concerned with lining their already fat pockets & rocketing the already high stock values. These buggers don’t care for another good decade or 2, mayb into another good 1/2 century of happy fanz/customers + continued good business for them. CURSE ‘EM!!!

[@lewish1248]

Second! (will be first one of these days!)😂

[@SamundraDarion]

Shore GOT A LITTLE SALTY

[@happybrain2674]

I also hear from some that they want to stay in worlds for a bit longer to establish lore or just to have more cards of an unice set like energie

[@stephan5574]

They could have added some reprints to Bolders Gate, just to shush the critics, they still have plenty of cards to reprint.

[@eoin5169]

Speaking as a newish player with very few games under their belt, I started paying attention to magic around when Commander Legends (1) released and... Honestly, for someone whose introduction to MTG is commander, that's a *really* good name for a set. Zendikar Rising?? Is that good for me, is it newbie EDH player friendly?? I don't know! Double Masters? Sounds intimidating! But a set called Commander Legends... OH, this is(/"must be", an assumption made quickly proved) a set with legends from the Commander format in it! Wow, this is an awesome product for me as a newb to purchase so I can catch up somewhat, with valuable and useful staples, or perhaps new cards that fill holes in the format! As opposed to... Commander Legends! This is a set with...Legends in it! That can be used in Commander! Which... every set is, nowadays. It's just not a sensible interpretation of the name. While enfranchised players might be wise enough to think, hey, Double Masters is right after it, that's going to impact the reprints, Baldur's Gate is the theme, that's going to impact the reprints... Not everyone is an enfranchised player, and the messaging was confusing in a very mundane way which I think might be missed by some.

[@drinkupnerds]

I liked the two set blocks. I also liked how the Ravnica/War of the Spark trilogy was set up as a kind of mega block with each set drafted solo. I also like Cleave as a mechanic too and I think there's a lot of design space left with it.

[@TheMMC100]

Matt is a Broncos fan?!?!?! Heck , yeah!!!

[@mathimus55]

Indeed

[@gregorysiegel5935]

Love to see that! He had me sold with the Broncos shirt, and the removal of Innistrad this episode.

[@cjsfriend2]

The problem is that this is Commander Legends 2 and is much less exciting than Commander Legends 1. The players that I've drafted this with didn't think that the theme was interesting. CL2 had a higher release price. CL1 was $125 for a Draft booster and CL2 was $150. CL1 had a bunch of chase cards (Jeweled Lotus, Mana Drain, Vampiric Tutor, etc) and CL2 didn't. Having AFR draft chaff in CL2 when it is a higher priced product (compared to standard) isn't exciting. It also didn't help that Double Masters also was released at around the same time, is designed for the same players and does have chase cards that were expected in CL2 and then some (Imperial Seal is basically only legal in EDH and is included in Double Masters).

[@circolocofanatic]

Agree Matt. Got the lands from kamigawa and moved on. Not a favorite.

[@liammanning8334]

I absolutely loved baldurs gate. One of my.favorite sets. I agree with what you said

[@metalplaysgames]

I agree that a commander legends set has great reprints and good commander cards, but baldurs gate should of not been called commander legends, but it's a good set that had a good amount of tech that ended up in a bunch of my decks. I was more disappointed with the reserved slots for specific card types in packs making packs get a ton of duplication

[@Grimlocksmith]

This is really the EDH"Get-Wrecked"Cast episode.

[@CubbyTv24]

People weren't looking for a jeweled lotus in the set. Most of the cards in the set were weak. When it came out, I went through the whole set and only found like 3-4 cards that were interesting and I could put into my decks. I simply ordered singles instead of packs because there weren't enough things I wanted and I was heavily overloaded with mtg product being released.

[@SirGrimLockSmithVIII]

We definitely need a return to blocks

[@danacoleman4007]

Agreed. I really loved kindergarten

[@GrahamFoxDelta]

“We were never told baldurs gate would have reprints” literally the whole point is that the name “commander legends” became synonymous with high value, high power reprint set. So by naming it that they communicated poorly, and they acknowledged that.

[@EDHRECast]

To quote the Command Sphere podcast with Rashel & Dan: "There seem to be a lot of people who got a memo I did not get about what a 'Commander Legends' set is. In every piece of marketing material, 'Commander Legends' has always been 'Commander designed to be drafted.'"

[@andrewp979]

Joey! Please give us a deck tech / video on your baba lysaga deck, your brewing process and what went into making that deck?

[@gilscheiner8097]

great start with the puns today!

[@angiepurse]

I'm going to say it. I enjoy (yes present tense) Baldur's Gate. I'm happy double masters was printed and I definitely bought singles from it. But I love what Baldur's Gate has brought to Commander.

[@nik700]

-I don't know of the new trilands should have been called triomes, but at least they needed a consistent name among all of them -I agree that most of the expectations for Bladur's Gate were self imposed by the players, I loved that set with all my soul, but Commander sets from the beginning were places in which you can reprint stuff that doesn't belong in other places. The amazing quality of the set and 2X2 existing are not excuses for the lackluster job they did with reprints -Totally agree with 2 set blocks, Kaldheim, Neon Kamigawa and New Capenna were so dense for just one set. I think that one set to present the new plane and another to change the status quo is a sweet spot. Like, Kaldheim had TEN realms, let me explore them! -I think that Goad is a sweet mechanic... BUT it doesn't ask much of you. I feel like it punishes decks that want to win with combat damage and helps combo-ish decks, a.k.a. decks that don't really need the help

[@FidoPhilanthropist]

I see where you guys are coming from, I do, but I'm not sure holding back problematic cards (which already exist) from Commander-focused sets, while seeding them in other, even-more-premium-priced sets, is a 'what's good for you' approach. I don't think a philosophy of pricing problem cards out of the hands of casual players is an effective solution to the Docksides and Fierce Denials out there.

[@CraigLoos]

I like Balder's Gate as well. I have a Erinis, Gloom Stalker//Cultist of the Absolute deck that I love. Other players at the board see how it plays, and complement me on the uniqueness and synergies in the deck. Granted, right now I have some consistency issues, the deck, slaps or flops, but that just means it needs some tweaking.

[@angelofsolitude7951]

You’re greatly mis-characterising BFBG issue, it was priced as a premium product and marketed as one as CL was one too.

[@danacoleman4007]

After reading the comments thoroughly, I realize that there is no point to me watching this video unless I want to become irate.

[@whitneypanda]

I really don’t agree with most of your CLB opinions. They did set expectations with the original Commander Legends set as that was the only set people had to compare it to. Saying commander doesn’t need cards like dockside so it’s good it wasn’t in there is kind of an irrelevant point because that card exists, people play it, and it’s just a question of how much money you want to spend. The set is also more expensive then a standard set so I think it is fair that people want to have a chance to get more commander staples in a commander legends set, and it feels bad to see so many commander staples printed in the set directly after. I think people would’ve been fine if there weren’t many new “must plays” if there were at least reprints of existing ones to help bring down the price. Dockside, smothering tithe, mana drain etc. Sure the draft environment may be fun, but if I do a draft, especially of a non standard set, I still like to get cards I want to use not just throw in a box to get rid of.

[@danacoleman4007]

Yes

[@garlicxlr]

On the subject of overloading a mechanic to the point of it becoming stale, I'd say Shrines have just become that. There's just too many of them now.

[@travis_approved]

I just think it’s very important that everyone gets on the same page about what “commander legends” means. I think that dockside 100% could have gone in that set, same with smothering tithe, mystic remora, ect. (Could being the keyword) EDIT: I also think it’s just way too convenient that those cards were reprinted in the following set with the 20 dollar draft booster 80 dollar collector boosters. We gotta have affordable means to these cards.

[@dantebeleren]

Dear Joey, Happy Soon 30th Birthday! From, Another Joe who is also soon turning 30! Also, Darksteel Relic is the best MtG card.

[@newworldsound]

The terrible Baldurs gate hot takes makes me wonder if you gents are getting enough oxygen. 😂 Seriously, do you not know the first thing about branding?

[@T_Peazy]

The expectations for baldurs gate may have been self imposed but they'd because they named it commander legends 2 and we expected what commander legends 1 did. That's the problem with names.

[@T_Peazy]

I'm speaking directly about reprints. That's my ONLY complaint about the set. It wasn't a failure but it was a valid disappointment

[@danacoleman4007]

Therefore, they were not self-imposed. It was deceptive marketing on the part of the manufacturer.

[@VexylObby]

I think we have tons of white tools now. I think it is one of the most powerful colors now due to it's ability to remove the most efficiently, draw, create treasures at an alarming rate. Now, we only need occasional white pieces like any other color. It is caught up.