MAHAVISHNU ORCHESTRA vs FRANK ZAPPA | Part 2

[@Peter7966]

I saw Mahavishnu Orchestra and Zappa on the same bill. Guitarist Leo Kottke opened the show, next, Mahavishnu, followed by Zappa. Jean Luc-Ponty was playing violin with Zappa. Great show.

[@dank6852]

Wow, three virtuosos, but one is definitely the odd man out lol. What time period was this roughly? All I can picture is like Armadillo era LK, guess he had some more Avant Garde stuff though.

[@Peter7966]

@@dank6852 Maybe 1974? It was in NY, either Madison Square Garden or the Nassau Coliseum, on Long Island. Kottke's set was challenging, given the size of the venue. A solo acoustic performance gets lost in that much space.

[@roobotix]

@@Peter7966 I saw them without Leo at the Providence civic Center.

[@roobotix]

@@dank6852 in those days people didn’t mind mixing up the acts.

[@TheLooknFeel]

I saw Mahavishnu Orchestra open for Zappa. It was fun watching the audience try to dance in 7/4 time. When Zappa's set was just starting, the audio on the vocals went out. He stopped the show, saying, cheerfully, "Whoa, whoa, whoa whoa, we can't have that happening in the middle of these _tunes_ ..." They took a few minutes and fixed it, and then picked up where they'd left off.

[@Circuit7Active]

Ponty played with both bands. A tribute to his greatness

[@paulwarren8936]

I went to those shows in 73 with Mahavishnu opening for Zappa....mind was blown that night.

[@SuperStrik9]

John McLaughlin is my favourite guitarist of all time. I'm a big fan of Zappa as well.

[@OldRunt]

That's nice.

[@avatacron60]

And who are you?

[@heatherperleberg7816]

​@@avatacron60 And why the passive aggression?

[@avatacron60]

@@heatherperleberg7816 And who are you??

[@kraka2oanIner]

My all-time favorites of the last century were: Miles Davis, Jimi Hendrix, Frank Zappa and Weather Report. But John McLaughlin, emerging from Miles' band, and forming Mahavishnu was no less than EPIC(!)

[@HakanTunaMuzik]

There's a video on youtube where Ruth Underwood states that when Zappa first heard Mahavishnu on the tour his face dropped, and she sensed things were going to change from there on, and they did.

[@mikedemike5393]

it was the power of Cobham's drumming that sealed the deal...so zappa got Chester Thompson.

[@JeffC-fq1be]

Cobham is probably the best all-around drummer ever. He has played with musicians from Miles David to the Grateful Dead. He can play anything, and do it really, really well.

[@jamesconraadtucker]

​@JeffC-fq1be Great drummer, Billy. I've heard him live on several occasions including Mahavishnu. . Powerful is an understatement. "Best all around". Sorry but I cannot agree. All around was not what he was known for. Power, was.

[@JeffC-fq1be]

@@jamesconraadtucker Who else has played with so many different artists as Mile Davis, Mahavishnu, Peter Gabriel, the Grateful Dead, etc. He can play anything - rock, swing, jazz, jazz fusion, and more - and do it well. What other drummer can play the genres that he does, at such a high level? Cobham is known for more than just his powerful playing.

[@jamesconraadtucker]

@@JeffC-fq1be Vinnie Caliutta has played with far more bands and is ridiculously more versatile. But I'm not here to disrespect BC. He does not have a versatile style my friend. But if you think so, cool. Enjoy!

[@eljerko8290]

Saw both in 1973 in Germany. Both blew me away...

[@MarkFranklin-ws5jf]

When I was 11-12 years old , my older brother was a jazz blues pianist 6 years older. I listened to everything he was listening to. I was so fortunate to have Mahavisnu, zappa, miles jack Johnson set album, chick corea, Brian auger. Its not the music our community listened to. So its like a secret world, most of my friends shake their head and walk away and I'm left to enjoy enjoy enjoy.great video

[@garygomesvedicastrology]

Thank you for mentioning Brian Auger, a truly wonderful musician. Jack Johnson is my favorite Miles Davis album, btw.

[@edljnehan2811]

I had a similar childhood experience😮

[@edljnehan2811]

​@@garygomesvedicastrologyhappiness is just around the bend😊

[@Hartlor_Tayley]

In gladiatorial competition I assume Billy Cobham will emerge as the ultimate champion.

[@DabsDad]

don't underestimate Vinnie

[@Hartlor_Tayley]

@@DabsDad true but my money is still on Billy.

[@careyvinzant]

Narada.

[@Hartlor_Tayley]

@@careyvinzant hmm.

[@garygomesvedicastrology]

Not necessarily... Cobham is pretty awesome, but I have seen more incredible drummers. But it's really not a competition anyway!

[@progfrogian9226]

There's a video called The Drummer of Frank Zappa with Humphrey, Thompson, Bozzio, Wackerman and Ruth Underwood where they discuss exactly that for a good 10+ minutes : How did the Mahavishnu opening for Frank changed him. It's a marvellous discussion. Here it is : kzbin.info/www/bejne/rnjIi3qof5Z8ebM

[@abbazabbado]

YES! I was about to say! 😆 ‘The Drummers of Frank Zappa’ should be required viewing, not only for this MO aspect (Ruthie provides a colorful description of the Big Change in the FZ catalog following this tour), but also for the recounted introductions and auditions as each drummer tried out for the band. LOTS of interesting insights. HIGHLY RECOMMENDED! 👍✨

[@JohnnyRecently]

I like/admire the angles you take discussing music/musicians. It's refreshingly unique, Andy.

[@kraka2oanIner]

Ditto! He has a good way of explaining their emotional AND technical approaches.

[@bobreece5842]

WOW! Glad I found your channel. Two things stand out for me standing behind you: the stacks of records remind me of the radio stations I worked in during the 70s, and one of the two of my favorite Zappa albums is seen, "Burnt Weeny Sandwich".

[@musopaul5407]

Very subtle point about the violin. Fascinating... Great video in general, two of my favourite artists.

[@dasglasperlenspiel10]

You're right about the way that mahavishnu and zappa appealed to fundamentally different audiences. My musical acquaintances tried over and over to make me love Zappa. I LIKED Zappa. But as soon as I heard McLaughlin, I was in LOVE. I saw

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

I love both

[@farshimelt]

The first time I heard Mahavishnu was sitting in a bathtub in Salt Lake City, returning from 3 months on the road with a C&W band. I turned on the radio and Birds of Fire was playing. I was so stunned I sat there until they finished and the water was cold.

[@kraka2oanIner]

Wow...similar to my viewpoint. But my love for Zappa became his orchestral works, later on. And yeah, NO drugs is GOOD drugs(!)

[@douglasanderson8636]

Andy, I"ve been listening to this music for years and have been a pro.musician all my adult life. I don"t know many people who talk like this though...wonderful.

[@danielodom3839]

Seen both SEVERAL times over the years. Guitar playing surely would have to go to John . Composing skills FRANK! Both incredible performers

[@geraldfriend256]

I think between McLaughlin and Zappa as guitar players is a matter of taste, they are both phenomenal and influential players. Myself as a listener I still listen to Zappa. Mahavishnu is the only MdLaughlin worth listening too. His solo work is heady and boring in my view.

[@shayDblue3000]

Give Shakti a try.@@geraldfriend256

[@The-F.R.E.E.-J.]

​@@geraldfriend256was going to say something, but you said it first. 👍

[@dorengarcia7925]

I'm not a fan of John's later work, or Zappa's, but the Orchestra's music was completely original... Zappa's composing is derivative of several other genre. So in my book, John's composing is more creatively original. I've seen both live 4 or 5 times, out of thousands of live music. At their best no one was better but some were as impressive.

[@heatherperleberg7816]

​@@geraldfriend256 McLaughlin with Shakti is incredible. Otherwise, I would agree.

[@evertvanderhik5774]

Andy, your music knowledge is astonishing.

[@kraka2oanIner]

...especially his exposure to lots of musicians...and he loves almost the same ones I do as well!

[@reinhardtherbert5129]

When i saw mclaughlin lately on the jeff Beck Tribute i was fully blown away. I saw him several Times in the 70 and didnt Listen to his music since the 80 - but man - compared to bis Performance every Thing Else there was just crab!!! He didnt play a Maschine gun - it was just a heavenly Sound! And then i got one of the last Tickets for bis Concert near my hometown in germany in october! Man - i think you understand how lucky i was to See the Master of Masters one more time (but shure i saw zappa also 2 Times, and i musst admid the first one was one of the best live Concerts i ever saw) - keep on going man - this Video was real nice shit ! ! ! ❤🎉❤

[@dennisrohm6372]

My first Zappa concert, M.O. opened for Zappa. Cobo Hall, Detroit. Mothers Day 1973 or 74. "Birds of fire" vs. "Apostrophe" it was mind-blowing experience !!

[@diogene2210]

Lucky you !

[@danguee1]

Wow - two of my all-time favourite albums! As @diogene says: lucky you...

[@dennisrohm6372]

Oh, by the way, I was on acid!

[@keithbenson4915]

That's double lucky ✌️

[@lesliehayton2929]

Yeh I went down from the north of England to Wembley in London age 16 to see frank , I have both of those records too , saw John mc in Bradford in 1975 with shakti was impressive but I really didn’t know what it was about . Last time I saw John was at North Sea jazz fest w joey and Dennis and I was blown away , an absolute inspiration .

[@marvo10]

Great analysis! Saw them both, early 70s, loved them both❤ I don't believe artists who are truly creative can be rated in words. The glass beads...

[@lesmoore6912]

I agree. There are folks who have mentioned their favorite guitarists in other posts. But I can no longer do that. I can list 20 great guitarists, and you would have to give each one their props. (And at times in the past they were 'favorites'). Not to mention, if I stop at 20 I'd be leaving a bunch out. No, the creativity that those musicians posess(ed) is what has us listening to Andy and is what brought us together.

[@maxschultz3956]

Great ! Thanks! 🙏🏻

[@michaelbinyon5602]

Your violin bending notes awareness and exploration reminds me that Don Ellis played a custom 4 valve trumpet for that very purpose. Escaping the confines of western scales may have been more of a part of the development of progressive jazz/rock than we think of. I love your thought provoking philosophical and insightful comments. Please keep them coming.

[@erikheddergott5514]

Blues with its swimming 3rds above the Tonika and and the 5th played against Tonika, Subdominant and Dominant Chords has opened Western Music for Notes outside the Halfnote World. Ornette Coleman from 1959 on played without Pianos to be free to play below, above and on Pitch. Slide Guitars and Mouth Harps were easily to be played with bended Notes. The Fact that Violins, Vibraphone, and the Flute became so important in Jazzrock Fusion as they never were before in Jazz and Rock has to do with the Fact that many young quite well trained Practitioners of these Instruments got the Chance to play before a „Big“ Audience. And let‘s not forget that Jazzrock Fusion had a higher than Usual Amount of Young Women in the Audience than Rock and Classical Music. From the Mid to late 60ties on Jazzrock Fusion started to become „sexy“, in the 70ties the Music was often used in Jazzdance Classes. No Wonder that nerdy Violonists, Flutists and Xylophone/Vibraphon Musicians wanted to play Jazzrock Fusion. Ruth Underwood was essential for the Sound George Duke Infused Zappa Bands in the 70ties.

[@jrbonilla13]

I have to bring awareness to John's use of Abe Wechter's scalloped fretboard guitar while with Shakti, which enabled him to bend and phrase notes while not pressing down on the fretboard like a sitar and a new approach to playing.

[@jameshicks7125]

The best three concerts I have attended, the most musically mind-blowing and virtuoso are, in order, John McLaughlin and Remembering Shakti, Frank Zappa and Miles Davis. I'd have to say that Magma is orbiting around around all these.

[@spiritof6663]

Whenever anybody asks me who I think the most complex, virtuoso artists ever to play rock (or rock-adjacent) music are, I usually spit out the names Zappa, Mahavishnu, Magma, and Rush (although I'm not actually a big Rush fan, I acknowledge their technical accomplishments). The musicianship collected in these acts is just inhuman.

[@wilddjango]

Like it! And is very plausible, I agree, I think you right! Somewhere I feel it the same way! Thank you!

[@franciscojavierruiz7219]

Sir, you have no idea of the importance of your show. It's a wonderful detailed analysis with many shareble intersections. I'll follow you ever since 🎉

[@TerryinNorway]

Watched first few minutes. Looking forward to the rest, later. All sublime musicians. Thank you.

[@thomasrichmond2413]

Used to see a guy in west LA with Ralph Humphries on drums and Jimmy Johnson on bass. Ah, one of the few benefits of living in So Cal.

[@kzustang]

Another fantastic video. Never thought about that aspect of the violin like that but it really makes perfect sense. This interwound history of these two great guitarists and their relationship with another leading electric instrument which acts as a 2nd fiddle (pun intended) is really beautiful.

[@RobertVeasquez]

Love love loved this Andy and worth the wait. My two favorite artists. Funny how you can have information but never realize it’s impact. I’m talking about the two violinists these geniuses used and each one joining the other. I could listen to discussions about McLaughlin and Xappa for years. And thank you for settling in on the ‘correct McLaughlin’ pronunciation!! ❤

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

I have been working on the pronunciation. That is how JM says on the new PRS guitar ad. So if the rumours that he may be watching this channel are true, I should try and say his name right

[@RobertVeasquez]

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer That is how I’ve always heard HIM say it…..so what if other people get it ‘wrong!’

[@flatbreadthom]

Wow! My favorite video of yours so far, Mind blown!

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

Glad you liked it!

[@NorthBayRepublic]

John’s grasp of world music that continued with Shakti puts him in the pantheon of the greatest musicians of the 20th century, regardless of the instrument of choice.

[@PaulMcEvoyGuitars]

I'm seeing Remember Shakti tomorrow in Boston. I balked at the ticket price but then realized I think I've only paid for one JM album like 20 years ago and I'll never have a chance to see him again and how many hours of music from him I've listened to and loved. The only reason I'm interested in South Indian music now is because of him. I am not a huge fan of his straight ahead jazz playing but he's still probably my favorite guitar player ever.

[@katorzhnik]

Really interesting insights.

[@davidcase1286]

great discussion. all favorite bands.

[@robertrobles4028]

Andy, great analysis here, but what about Larry Coryell with Gary Burton live at Carnegie Hall in 1968. This was years ahead of it’s time. Most certainly this is a seminal Jazz Rock/ Fusion album

[@ElmerJFudd-oi9kj]

Thanks Andy, you made me realize lots of things. Beiing a former fan of Mahavishnu orch. and Zappa ( as a drummer) I agree with your findings and recognize it all.

[@rgolten]

spot on Andy - John, Frank, Miles, Jean-Luc - forwards, backwards & sideways. I've loved them all. Hot Rats was my 1st Zappa album. Masterpiece! Miles' Great Expectations just read the list of sidemen & got into Jazz Rock by following them all up. Got stoned & listened to Inner Mounting Flame at Uni in 1972 OMG.

[@kraka2oanIner]

I was almost INSTANTLY a fan of John McLaughlin, when I'd heard him on BITCHES BREW. Then, when I heard the Mahavishnu Orchestra, I was super-blown away. I got the record, and immediately learned DANCE OF THE MAYA (except I couldn't improvise a fraction of what they could render!). They were the FIRST band I saw in Boston, in 1972. I wasn't as big a fan of Zappa, until later, and mostly with his orchestral works. Your timeline of the relationships of the musicians, esp. Jean-Luc Ponty being the common denominator between the bands really puts a deeper understanding to my experience. GOOD ONE, Andy. THANKS!

[@sandiemann3860]

I attended that concert tour in Milwaukee WI and it was Freaking Fabulous!

[@petertarrant937]

The thing that I've enjoyed about your presentations are that they "live" with no editing, no cutting away and no video enhancements. What I find edifying is your ability to talk (rant) without referring to a script or "waffling" without going "um". I know you want to expand this channel, but these are the things I find unique/enjoyable/fulfilling about watching your" diatribes" about whatever you are going on about.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

Wow, thank you! I won't forsake that approach.

[@constantinghe3801]

Bravo Andy !...

[@terni12masfusion]

Mr. Edwards, where is Part 1?

[@aliensporebomb]

My funny Mahavishnu story is that I first encountered them on record “Between Nothingness and Eternity” when I was about 10 years old and just thought anyone who was any good played that way. I listened to that record literally hundreds of times and it sort of expanded my brain. I later realized that this was a rare special thing that only a few could really achieve. Saw Zappa live in 1981 and 1984 and was going to see thrm in 1988 but was dragged on a family vacation and figured “well I will see him next time” not realizing it was the last tour. Big fans of both artists. Oddly, Zappa may have been at odds with John’s faster playing but at the same time he was a big fan of Allan Holdsworth a guy known for some very rapid playing.

[@rillloudmother]

"My Funny Mahavishnu" sounds like the title of a tune. like 'why is there a dolphin on green street?'

[@Mooseman327]

@@rillloudmother Yeah, it sounds like the title of a Zappa tune.

[@joe65432]

Saw that show in Toronto, Maple Leaf Gardens. Eye opener fer sure. Thanks for the insight!

[@drummusicinc4027]

Fantastic video. I don’t have a winner in this fight. It’s a draw. I love them both. Thanks 👍🍺

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

Glad you enjoyed it

[@johnshort5003]

My three favourite guitarists are Frank Zappa, John McLaughlin and Jan Akkerman. Thanks for this interesting analysis.

[@OldRunt]

Thanks for bringing Jan into this. What a gifted musician.

[@johnshort5003]

@@OldRunt Yeah, he brought a classical element into the Jazz Rock.

[@edjackson4986]

Jan Akkerman is a keyboard player

[@johnshort5003]

You having a laugh? Do a Google search and see what comes up: Dutch guitarist.@@edjackson4986

[@jennifermorgan6913]

two phenomenal bands❤❤

[@stevecohen11]

Miles as much as anything else in my mind was exploring his own subconscious in terms of his extended trance techno compositions. Miles literally had his own series of generational shifts within his own musical playing.

[@fernandomartincom]

Thank you so much for this video Andy! By the way, I just bought your great band recording KIAMA 💯👏🏼 As a side note, McLaughlin himself has commented in the past, that actually, it was Miles who told him to go and put together his own band

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

Yes that is right, after a gig where he had not played that great I think

[@squeakyproductions]

Very enjoyable, thank you.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

Thank you too!

[@michaelsullivan1932]

Wow! We share the same favorite musicians.

[@johannhauffman323]

Very interesting. Thanks !

[@Circuit7Active]

Saw both bands live back in the 70s...Zappa 5 times. Each band had the very best band members.. I can't think of too many other bands that had this level of musicianship except for Return to Forever

[@ex_orpheus1166]

I found out John MacLachlin via Miles Davis' Bitches Brew. The guitar solos on those album are absolutely unmistakable.

[@glynnwadeson5605]

I’m a big Zappa and McLoughlin fan, from way back, in fact the start of their respective careers. I wouldn’t have seen Zappa as a representative of the common man though..I always saw him as arrogant and more than a little sneering at certain stereotypes which remained unchanged targets throughout his career.

[@gutebrandao4369]

In Brasil we have an amazing .musician,his name is Arrigo Barnabé.he drank fthe water of inspiration from these guys,adding the humor of Zappa.

[@miraposajehano4309]

The thing with Zappa is that he defined himself as a great contemporary composer but his music is not so much avant-gardiste as he himself believe but more like a bunch of syncopated rhythm and blues phrases tied up with odd time signature tempo. McLaughlin on the other hand is a real musician's musician. I like them both and seen them both in concerts many time but I have always felt that Zappa was a man with a chip on his shoulder. Whenever you see him on tv, radio, interview he always comes out as someone who needs to explain his music. He was a man on a mission to be legitimize and pronounce in the same breath as Bela Bartok, Stravinsky or Varèse. Mclaughlin never expresses such doubts and he doesn't seem to be interested by his place in music history or world wide fame. He has a great level of humility as all the really great have...he isn't insecure about his talent because he knows no one comes close to want he does on the guitar.

[@flasaxmessias4999]

muito boa analise , concordo , parabéns !!!

[@miraposajehano4309]

@@flasaxmessias4999 Obrigado....que Deus ajude o Brasil ou os portugueses a vencer a copa do mundo de futebol

[@flasaxmessias4999]

@@miraposajehano4309 I thank you for reading, I really like Zappa and John, I have almost all of their work on vinyl, John's humility and chameleon ability is unbeatable, he studied Veena in India, knows and plays rock, jazz, soul, classical, even Brazilian popular music with Gilberto Gil, Egberto Gismonti, and Zappa, also brilliant but illustrated how you explain, I think in Zoot Allures you define him as a guitarist, Grand Wazoo as a composer? Congratulations on your sensitivity, you know them well! I wish you good luck with everything!

[@miraposajehano4309]

@@flasaxmessias4999 I have seen them both in concert numerous time...especially McLaughlin. I saw him first in the 90's with Kai Eckart and Trilok Gurtu then with Dennis Chambers. Both these concerts were in Vancouver British Columbia. Then I saw the powerful trio with de Lucia and Aldi Meola at the St-Denis theatre in Montréal, Québec. Was so blown away by that concert that I didn't play guitar for three months afterward. I was completely discourage by their degree of perfection, execution and musicianship. Zappa, I saw him twice...once in Montreal for the Zoot Allure tour in 78 or 79 and then at Queen Elizabeth hall in Vancouver. The first concert was incredible but not the second. For a reason I ignore, that night he was just going through the motion. It happens to the best of them. I saw Allan Holdsworth a few time and I can't tell that he was particularly good in concert except for the time I saw him playing with UK. Musicians are a dying breed; what people think as musicians now are more often than not technicians who knows how to play with computers, loopers and drum machines.

[@Ilovemusic793]

Great video Andy! You should have many more subscribers!

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

Working on it!

[@mulcogiseng3175]

What a wonderful dive into this great music. Love the approach. Can't argue with your 4 pillars of the channel. As far as the comments on drummers, I'd sooner Grady Tate,

[@jdmresearch]

This is a great discussion. MO > FZ in my view, but it's a personal preference... as often is.

[@patrickcosgrove886]

Terry Bozzio did a video with drummers who worked with Frank Zappa. Ruth Underwood talked about the tour when they shared the bill with the Mahvishnu Orchestra.

[@hmsdefiant]

Very astute.

[@Dimitri-Jordania]

That 'writer credit' youre talking about, is actualy over the song 'Pegasus', which was ACTUALLY JEAN LUC PONTY just improvising messing with a new tape delay pedal on his violin, then *without telling him,* John Mclaughlin recorded it, and added it to the album as *his own* composition... Also on Visions of the Emerald Beyond, John swapped out Jerry Goodman, for a different violinist, the story goes the violinist WALKED UP to John after an earlier mhvsh orch concert, and said to him 'I can play that better than Jerry Goodman', and being the kind of guy John apparently is, he took him up on that on the spot... So Jerry was cut for this new classical soloist violinist, then added JLP

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

That violin solo was an improvisation that was part of another piece. Ponty did not expect for it to be seperated into it's own track and named and then composer credit given to JM. But he knew it was recorded

[@jwc3o2]

for another take on the "i saw that tour" story: i was familiar with neither of these guys when a friend & i attended the concert in Toronto because we were both guitarists & had heard that Zappa was "good on guitar". there, it was the folk band The Good Brothers that opened the show. Mahavishnu followed & the hallucinatory rhythms (they opened with "Birds of Fire") were better than any drug (no, we weren't on drugs). Zappa's music commanded attention in a different way entirely. the immediate endresult of that was running out & acquiring their latest albums, "Birds of Fire" & "Roxy & Elsewhere". for a long time, i appreciated both & continued to buy their albums & attend concerts but i ran outta patience with McLaughlin's relentless machinegun approach in terms of his solos & the palpable sense of "preciousness" to his work overall in its proposed pæanistic splendour (i've never met a physic i liked). while his stylistic investigations kept changing, they ultimately remained pretty tame, the solos came off like variations on each other, & i pretty much gave up on him; though i still would attend random concerts like the guitar trio with Al Dimeola & Paco deLucia & a later Mahavishnu incarnation, the particular spark that infused the first Mahavishnu Orchestra was gone & everything felt at least somewhat stilted (not to mention overloaded with a form of egostatic). Zappa, on the other hand, whether i was looking back in time at earlier work or following along with new releases, was relentlessly investigative in every way, not just in his guitar work; so much so that new listenings weren't accompanied by a sense of apprehension (as McLaughlin's had become) but a sense of expectancy & that expectancy never morphed into disappointment: there was always change & range that just kept expanding pretty much limitlessly. as a superficial example, given Zappa's propensity toward dense melodic lines (like, say, in "T'mershi Duween"), the surprise of "Jonestown" & the types of more "static" densities it achieves really makes yr ears perk up. the short of this is that i ultimately found McLaughlin to be all flash & of limited sustainable interest, whereas Zappa was an endless source of musical education (& still is, in fact, as more & more oddball rehearsal variations become available) that continues to surprise, instruct, & bring joy. i still listen to & enjoy both but Zappa is far more widely fulfilling than the minimal niche McLaughlin occupies.

[@dexblue]

Very well observed, well said ...

[@shirleymental4189]

If it was JM's intention to change the audience, I think he was successful. Just about any comment I've read about hearing Mahavishnu Orchestra for the first time (usually by record) is followed by: 'it changed my life' and I include myself there. I've never heard this said, in such numbers about any other band/musician.

[@seansweeney9310]

i echo the "changed my life" significance, especially after seeing them live in 1973.

[@mikel5582]

Ummm..... Grateful Dead.... thousands of people dropped everything to start touring with the band.

[@SoundSeeker2024]

Excellent

[@TheJohnmb46]

Love your style Andy! Incidentally I had your name on the back of my t-shirt today! I was wearing my Kiama t-shirt! Don't get too excited, I bought the album because Luke Machin is an amazing guitarist! Yeah, OK, your drumming is pretty good too!

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

what a rarity that is! I got Luke into Kiama so I take credit. He does a guitar solo on this track of mine too andyedwards.bandcamp.com/track/zen-furnace-part-1

[@TheJohnmb46]

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer Luke is a fantastic guitarist! I have seen him quite a few times with The Tangent and more recently with Karnataka where I had a lengthy chat with him, he is such a regular and self effacing guy!

[@jwf2125]

Interesting. But where’s part 1?

[@PhilBaird1]

Great stuff Andy. A musician's knowledge, with a fan's energy and enthusiasm. Secret ingredient: a touch of Black Country madness on the side (I reckon it's listening to all those hammers).

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

...ommas!

[@zeuhl5840]

As always, excellent thoughts on the Mahavishnu and Zappa connection! Besides the great French Jazz violinist Didier Lockwood started playing electric violin after hearing Ponty on the album King Kong: Jean-Luc Ponty Plays the Music of Frank Zappa. In 1974 after a concert of the 2nd incarnation of the Mahavishnu Orchestra in Antibes/France there was a session of Didier, his brother Francis with John Mclaughlin, Narada Michael Walden, Ralph Armstrong ... in the studio of Jean-Pierre Massiera.

[@garygomesvedicastrology]

Ever hear Didier with Magma? Outrageous! His solo stuff is great but the Magma Live album (also called HHAI!) is ridiculously intense.

[@zeuhl5840]

@@garygomesvedicastrology I definitely became aware of Didier Lockwood because of his recordings with Magma and I was completely hallucinated at the time. in the late seventies I saw Didier several times in concert: stunningly awesome and full of pure and wild energy! Even later I often saw him live. His instrumental style of playing developed continuously from wild, rocky, jazzy and electronic sounds to highly virtuosic bebob-oriented swinging modern jazz.

[@stuartbrowne408]

Really interesting as usual ❤

[@mattreynolds612]

Speaking of micro tonality... What do you think about King Gizzard and the Lizard Wizard?

[@annode]

I saw that tour in Philly and yes, I was tripping. haha I saw Frank standing behind the amps watching The Mahavishnu Orchestra play. Here on KZbin, Zappa associate Pauline Butcher told me she and Frank were standing in the wings watching TMO play and Frank says to her something along the lines of "Do you know who this guy is, he's about the best guitarist in the world." and was actually excited about telling it to her. ( I really forget what she told me exactly but with that sentiment.) OH, and forgot to mention...after the show at the stage door we got to talk to Billy Cobham! He's way shorter then you'd expect him to be. We also caught Sal Marquez leaving and we dragged him into our RV and we smoked a joint with him. He was nervous looking around and saying "If Zappa sees me I'm done for". In Philly, the crowd is equally MO vs Zappa fans.

[@rakeshadhin]

Nice analysis! A connection that you didn't mention is Mahavishnu's Ralphe Armstrong apparently touring with Frank Zappa in 1975/76.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

Yes he did...I did know that too, he mentioned it on a recent interview on KZbin

[@christophercole8877]

It’s comparing Klee to Dali. Or something…. Wha-? I love this sort of essay. Thanks for sharing it.

[@wilddjango]

Oh forgot another amazing Violin Player entered the Scene " Micheal Urbaniak!"

[@bobf9749]

Now I have to go listen to both, as well as Coltrane and Miles Davis. And Jean Luc Ponty.

[@stevecohen11]

I never saw Mahavishnu orchestra, but I saw John McLaughlin play in a series of different musical settings. I got to see Miles play when he unretired in the early 1990s.

[@scottblanton3182]

Frank Zappa had 3 phases as a guitarist he was pretty good as a blues based guitarist on Hot Rats then he was good by Apostrophe and Overnite Sensation. He was great by Zappa live in New York as a jazz fusion guitarist on Cruzin for Burgers. 3 phases pretty good, good and then great. John Mclaughlin was always great and just got better and better. The problem Frank Zappa had was he was such a genius as a composer and conductor that people thought his guitar playing would be on that level....and sometimes it wasn't. John Mclaughlin never had that problem. But Frank Zappa was basically Johnny Guitar Watson so in that regard he was pretty good.....but he wasn't consistently on the level that John Mclaughlin was. John Mclaughlin looked like serial killer Ted Bundy and he played the guitar with an intensity that could be downright scary. I've bought 3 albums in my life that from a guitar perspective moved me....the Bluesbreaker album with Eric Clapton, Couldn't Stand The Weather by Stevie Ray Vaughan and Birds of Fire by the Mahavishnu Orchestra.

[@paulsmashupchannel1442]

I've tried many times...Zappa isn't interesting, fun or inspiring in any way. His presentation suggests he's there to rub your nose in his amazing ability to unleash tediousness. His pretentiousness is something to behold.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

Thanks for sharing

[@kevinogracia1615]

Apples and oranges. They both taste good. Depends on what yer ear palate wants to consume. Cool history. Saw them both. Had "Burnt Weeny Sandwich" on eight track. Yea, I'm geezin'. Peace on earth.

[@dimsylsodium1]

I always thought that John McLaughlin included a violist in the Mahavishnu Orchestra because his mother is a classical violinist. But I can't recall if I have heard John mention this explicitly in an interview.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

Yes he has said that in many interviews.

[@chadbailey1500]

Jerry Goodman was the violinist for Mahavishnu of my memory serves me correctly... he ended up playing in the last lineup of the Dixie Dregs mid to late 90's

[@petermendelsohn4944]

I saw Frank around 1974. He played at the wrestling auditorium in Honolulu. The seats were wood benches with no backs, and they were so old you'd get splinters in your butt if you wiggled too much. It was torn down the following year. It was the premier audition of Cecilio and Kapono, who were the warm-up band. Frank had faux urinals mounted to the amps, ever the iconoclast. I had read a review of Birds of Fire and picked up a copy. As I ran a record store on Oahu, I didn't have far to go. I thought the album was total crap until I listened to it again that evening after I was "more relaxed." On second listen, it was amazing and has been a favorite ever since. I did manage to see McLaughlin when he played Honolulu a few years later with Carlos Santana. Cobham was with them, and he was so fast, his arms were virtually invisible. Their version of Love Supreme/ Life Divine was absolutely transcendent. The Blaisdell Center / Honolulu International Center is shaped like a giant flying saucer, and their trading guitar licks went whizzing around like Sapphire Bullets of Pure Love. Unforgettable concert. I'd love to see you do with Santana what you've done for Zappa: most jazzy albums (if you haven't already). I'd go with Caravanserai, Welcome, Borboletta, Love, Devotion, and Surrender, and Lotus.

[@bernhardtorsch8020]

Dear Andy. Thank you for your highly informative and entertaining Videos. I wanted to ask you what your opinion is on the two Albums by Manfred Mann's Chapter III from 1969 and 1970, on which he ventures quite far into Fusion and, in my opinion, heavey early Prog territory. I know that Manfred Mann might be considered in England as a light 60ies Pop Dude, but from what I know he even in the mid 60ies sometimes ventured off into his true calliing, which was Jazz. And this seems even be noticable on his ealy "Earth Band" albums like "Solar Fire". Anyhow, any thoughts on his two Chapter II-Albums would be highly appreciated. Thanks again for all the great stuff you put on here.

[@garygomesvedicastrology]

The Manfred Mann Chapter 3 albums were incredible! I think I have a very different perspective on both Prog and Fusion starting points because, from around 1967 onwards I heard so many bands that I would have considered prog or fusion. One thing that bothered me about, let's say, the formally recognized starting points, like KC, Yes or Mahavishnu Orchestra is that bands start copying the successful bands and the creative juices start to congeal. They are now playing a form of music. This was the beginning of the end for creative experimentation and the eventual commercialization of both musics. A form needs to keep developing or it loses its juice.

[@seabud6408]

Great content. I love JMcL. His personality and music have been a support/inspiration to me my whole life. My older friend had Mahav’ tickets and was in a guitar store in Glasgow when John came in to buy some strings, before a gig in 1973. Can’t see John going into a bar for a beer, so would have loved the opportunity to buy his strings for him. 🍺 😀 Sad to have missed the orig’ line up. Saw him with Mahav’ mark 2 … phenomenal.. but there will never be another band like mark 1. Never got into Zappa because his personality and quirky/spoken wordy, stop starty music put me off. Now trying to catch up and listen to his work.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

It's not all like that. Try Eat That Question

[@seabud6408]

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer Thanks for the pointer .. I need it. I suspect I’m at the stage with Zappa, I was with Yes’s Close to the Edge (after loving “The Yes Album”) Awful .. to subsequently, poss’ the best rock album ever made .. after 3 plays.

[@pf100andahalf]

Andy, you forgot to put the link to the part 1 video in the description, or did you put it somewhere else and I missed it? I came here to find part 1. I knew about these mahavishnu/zappa videos so I searched your channel for the term "mahavishnu" but this video here didn't show up but if I searched your channel for the term "zappa" it did but not part 1, so maybe put "mahavishnu" and "zappa" as keywords in the descriptions of both videos? Or maybe I don't know how to operate this machinery.

[@williamfarr8807]

There is an interview that I have watched on You Tube in the past, where Zappa is taking questions from the audience on an Australian talk show in the early to mid-1970s, and he is asked about his opinion of Mclaughlin’s guitar playing. Unfortunately, I can’t seem to find it now.

[@mikedemike5393]

Monday conference I believe it is called.

[@daledavidson8242]

Zappa was touring Apostrophe while the Mahavishnu was moving into Birds of Fire when they complemented/competed at the Spectrum, with a Philadelphia audience just as famous for amping a great performance as they are for disdaining mediocrity. This was the peak …Vishnu concert I witnessed followed by Zappa playing his ass off while putting his band through a complex improv arranged just for that evening. A show for the ages.

[@tezzo55]

Nice!

[@ChrisCole-i9o]

What marks the greater musician, the ability to influence or the ability to assimilate? Maybe both?

[@TheJohnmb46]

Just wondered what you think of Gong! Would love to see you do a video appraising their work from 1967 to the present day after the death of Daevid Allen and Kavus Torabi taking up the mantle ....or should I just do it! LOL!

[@znmaf]

Fantastic segment

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

Glad you enjoyed it

[@Gk2003m]

20:00: actually, Zappa was correct. To this day, McLaughlin still emits bursts of fire. A direct contrast to that would be Allan Holdsworth, who while very fast strove for more of a liquid feel. It does not diminish McLaughlin to say this. And Zappa in fact borrowed some of that from McLaughlin; the result can be found, for example, in “Nanook Rubs It” where the lyrical phrases are interspersed with similar machine-gun bursts of notes.

[@philippebyrnes1213]

YOu omit Soft Machine III, which came out in June 1970. Alan Holdsworth later joined them for some fantastic fusion but Soft III was pure Coltrane but adapted by English musicians from the Canterbury scene. But I loved your analysis.

[@jeffbrodie42]

John Mclaughlin changed the evolution of the guitar 3 times. They'll never be another JM.

[@treecloud]

Did you checkout the Viola Crayola? Aka the most Mahavishnu/Zappa inspired guitar trio

[@pjjmsn]

I love your point that Coltrane to Miles is analogous to Mclaughlin to Zappa. That John M and John C are pointing up to the heaveans and Miles and Frank are pointing to the streets. I never thought of it like that but it rings true. The Zappa quote of Mclaughlin playing like a machine gun also bothered me. As a guitar player, I can tell you that a line played at moderate speed has completely different emotion as the same line played a breakneck speed. A player capable of high speed has an extra paint on his palette for expression that the speed-challenged player doesn't have. Mclaughlin and Coltrane's playing are perfect examples of that.

[@timcardona9962]

As a guitarist, I've always taken the machine gun comment to be referring mostly to JM's attack where he picks every note which gives his lines a rather choppy feel like a machine gun. Also I disagree with the COltrane analogy because harmonically speaking JM is not doing anything all that interesting or groundbreaking as compared to Zappa. He can certainly shred pentatonics at a faster speed though

[@pjjmsn]

@@timcardona9962 To clarify, are you saying that Zappa's guitar playing is more harmonically complex than JM's? JM in the MO is using Indian classical harmonic ideas. He is also extremely rythmically complex. I argree that he is no where near as complex harmonically as Coltrane.

[@timcardona9962]

@@pjjmsn No, I am saying that JM's playing does not possess enough harmonic ingenuity to warrant any sort of comparisons with Coltrane. As a jazz guitarist I can tell you that hardly anybody talks about JM except for guitarists who are really into JM. He can shred like nobody's business but his lines just arent that interesting. Most agree that he peaked with Miles

[@pjjmsn]

@@timcardona9962 I am with you that JM's playing doesn't posess the harmonic ingenuity of Coltrane. But I would say that Holdworth's doesn't either because. although his playing is tremendously novel harmonically, he doesn't display the sheer variety of harmonic ideas that, it seems to me that Coltrane does. Can you name some guitar players that could be compared to Coltrane in terms of utilizing harmonic ingenuity?

[@timcardona9962]

@@pjjmsn I like Holdsworth and he's certainly done a good job of exploring some of Coltrane's concepts. FOr my money he's way more original than JM. As far as other guitarists I think Kurt Rosenwinkel is a great example of Coltrane inspired guitarists. Adam Rogers is another one

[@todd3205]

At the Akron Rubber Bowl in August of 1972, it was a gift to get to see JM and Mahavishnu Orchestra. Jan Hammer, Jerry Goodman, Billy Cobham, Rick Laird, for a dose of interplanetary travel. The headliner was Yes, but the first band to play was a lesser-known, pre-Joe Walsh/Bill Szymczyk version of the Eagles (odd mix, eh what?).

[@splankhoon]

Thanks for this. Much appreciated!

[@weeooh1]

As a big fan of McLaughlin/MO and Zappa since early 70s, thoroughly enjoyed your commentary and historical info about them and their relationship. Not sure where I got the impression many years ago that Zappa was critical of or not impressed with John/MO, but I think you have provided sufficient perspective that that was not the case.

[@malcolmmacdonald4745]

Great points. ... I saw that MO and Zappa tour in Toronto, after seeing MO on their first tour and remember not being as taken-back by the event and maybe some your points clarified why I felt that way. It wasn't a great paring of two bands. ... You should also mention that Jerry was the first using violin in rock back in The Flock which was a great band and might be interesting to do a show on their influence at that time.

[@chikkipop]

Jerry wasn't the first. The band *"It's a Beautiful Day"* formed a couple of years before The Flock. Their big hit - White Bird - even included a violin solo.

[@alancumming6407]

I saw Zappa in 1973 at Wembley. Zappa and his band were superb and as a 14 year old I was awestruck. Outside Wembley Empire Pool one of the music papers did a vox pop and published the result with one of the audience comparing Zappa's show with being "bludgeoned into catatonia". I completely disagreed with the sentiment but still thought it a brilliant and funny observation.