Mail Call Mondays Season 8 #12 - Negligent Discharges

[@fredhill3565]

I completely agree about the DQ. Even if it’s a rifle failure then it needs to go to a gunsmith.

[@Masheen187]

Accidental discharge turned into my son 9 months later 😁

[@andyprairiedog]

LMAO!! Thanks for the laugh...I have a 6-year old :)

[@DonziGT230]

An ND in any direction is an ND. Downrange is the best place to have it happen, still should be a DQ.

[@awatt510]

Just saying... I had an ND at a match on Saturday. DQed myself before the RO caught it. I spent the rest of the day spotting and ROing. There was no need to fight or argue with the decision as it was my responsibility to control my rifle.

[@wvlongshooter3912]

Anthony Watt hey, it happens, or it can happen to the best of us. Most guys won’t admit it!!!

[@fredhill3565]

Total agree.

[@andyprairiedog]

...heard an ND in 2002 in Ft. Benning, GA. Was my (our) turn to be behind the berm on target detail for the shooting section to move from the 700 to the 800 line. The Motorola radio chattered, "cease fire"....4 seconds later we heard a faint rifle report...but no familiar sharp 'crack' overhead. We wondered who it was...lane 5 was told to pull the target and have a smoke break. Fellow on the shooting line was headed back to his unit by the next morning.

[@andrewstoll4548]

ECI's/ empty chamber indicator should be used when the firearms are off the firing line.

[@PrecisionRifleNetwork]

👍🏻👊🏻

[@fxdrider01]

It was pointed out on one of the popular podcasts that part of the problem is that at a typical precision rifle match, the RO is the only official on a stage and he/she is busy with looking through the spotting scope, and therefore cannot possibly be aware of the safety aspect of the shooter's actions (i.e.: finger on trigger when it shouldn't be). I can't comment on if, in fact that's the case as I haven't shot any PRS or NRL matches. I have however been a USPSA competitor for 25 years, and have been on many major match RO teams. At the USPSA major matches I've been to, the RO and the scorekeeper are both tasked with watching the shooter closely for safety violations (reloading or moving with finger on the trigger, breaking the 180 (pointing the gun uprange), as well as negligent/accidental discharges. From what I've heard on some of the podcasts and forum discussions, it seems like these rifle matches could seriously use an additional RO on each stage - one for the spotting scope and one to watch the shooter for safety. Just my .02 cents.

[@Ratchety]

Well said John.

[@jenky1044]

@8542 Tactical If accidental discharge occurs during a match, I think that person should not be allowed to finish that match. However I think they should be able to participate the rest of the day. *Reason is how long are they suspended for.? That day.? A week.? Etc... What makes them more fit if they return a month later.? Do they have to take a test or a course.? Just curious.

[@joshuah2107]

I was thinking the same thing. Maybe remove them from being scored but allow them the option to participate in hopes it will help with their nerves for the future. Also new shooters that have never engaged a target from prone or from a barricade may not have the experience manipulating the bolt from that position. I think learning at their own pace could help avoid future accidental discharges.

[@jenky1044]

@@joshuah2107 I do see your point.

[@reccecs4]

Looks like the video has been taken down, but in regards to your comment at 11:35 - the shooter WAS on scope when he shot. Only he would know if he was on target, and no one asked before the rush to judgement was made. From what I saw, the evidence supports exactly what you're saying - a miss, not an ND.

[@horseman760125]

I'm sorry to contradict you but I've also seen the video and that shooter wasn't on scope and wasn't ready to take that shot... you can see it only with his reaction.

[@reccecs4]

I definitely agree that he seemed to react as if it broke early, but I'm positive he was on scope. That wasn't even a point of argument in the original discussion. Do you happen to have a link for the video?

[@horseman760125]

Nope but here's Joel explaining why he removed it. facebook.com/PRN.actual/videos/1110444472471501/

[@PrecisionRifleNetwork]

reccecs4 it was a clear ND. If you watched the video, that can’t be debated according to the PRS/NRL rule definitions. Another issue is round accountability. No one saw the impact. I’m told a few people have measured the difference of the barrel angle between previous shots and the ND and mathematically concluded that the ND shot cleared the berm. It is what it is. Can’t change the past. My hope in posting that video is that a real honest discussion about safety occurs and some changes are made going forward.

[@reccecs4]

Sure it can be debated. You say no one saw the round impact, but how do you know? It's entirely possible the shooter did - but we don't know, because no one asked him. There's also plenty of good reasons why a spotter can miss a splash. Look, I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm saying we don't know if you're right. I'm not sure what changes would be made that would have a meaningful effect? I mean that seriously. I'm assuming you mean changes in rules or procedures? Obviously safety is the first, second and last consideration when shooting recreationally. I'm just not sure this is the example to make a case over.

[@per-eriklarsen9565]

Clear massage about range and match safety! I totally agree!!

[@garykondek5231]

Well said, thank you John.

[@Abeene]

How about during the stage, in position, when you have sights on target, eyes on target, set in position, shot breaks and you hit the target, but you know you had no intent of breaking that shot at that moment. More than an intentional “suprise brake,” e.g., you were tweaking your grip to get that perfect 90 and ended up breaking the shot. Would you DQ yourself then?

[@scottgti20t]

The point is get ur perfect grip with ur trigger finger out of the trigger guard. Rest it on the receiver/stock what have u. So yea. Keep ur finger off the trigger period. Unless u intend to fire.

[@jamesgrant2069]

Well said.

[@ditzylemon1]

Pretty standard in competition. Idpa has similar rules

[@lukewarm2075]

What Rifle and stock is that

[@brianb1998]

MDT ESS with MDT carbine stock.

[@8541tactical]

What he said!

[@mysmedicdaddy]

Ultimatum?

[@brentwinkelman1990]

Ultimatum deadline

[@medwynvermin8772]

With you all the way on that. Yes it might be harsh in some eyes but it has to be safe.

[@jasonmpd2946]

Agree all around. NDs aren’t acceptable. You’re not necessarily a dirtbag and it’s unfair to pejoratively stigmatize a competitor for it, but the DQ is justified. And being frank, an AD is just a negligent discharge with at least one degree of separation from the shooter. Negligence at some point led to it.

[@talkingrock7011]

john I want to know how you rate the sig scope on the rifle

[@Tantrum791]

Can we get specs on your setup on the table?

[@joshuah2107]

Well said John. What is your opinion on new competitors making mistakes such as sending a round down range before they were exactly ready. Maybe not having shot from certain positions before.

[@horseman760125]

I guess that you learn by your mistakes... that novice shooter should be dq'd as well as any other shooter on the line who's making the same mistake.

[@whisper.shooter]

What do you think about guys setting triggers too light and the shot goes off when he slams the bolt down too hard? Accidental by the definition in the video but I feel the shooter should be held accountable for modifying his rifle without the necessary testing to ensure it's safe operation

[@jaredthompson8188]

Next week on mail call mondays oryx chassis 😀?

[@mysmedicdaddy]

Personally, I'll be WAY more interested in the Oryx when MDT designs 6.5 grendel mags for the chassis that hold more than 4. But it does look nifty. Maybe a lightweight 223 build.

[@jaredthompson8188]

@@mysmedicdaddy I'm debating between krg bravo, oryx, XLR element, or bell and Carlson competition stock

[@mysmedicdaddy]

I'm a big fan of XLR. Currently building a rifle using a Gen 1 Carbon chassis with a Bighorn Origin action. What's the purpose of the rifle? Hunt? Comps? Duty rifle?

[@jaredthompson8188]

@@mysmedicdaddy just long range shooting for fun, maybe some hunting but I'd like a 300 win mag for that, rifle is a 6.5cm howa, I dont have time or money for comps.

[@jaredthompson8188]

I mean out of the hogue stock and hornady precision hunter I'm consistently getting sub half moa at 100 best being a .38"

[@johnneill5960]

If you have a ND you should be DQ - if you have a safety violation you should be DQ- if you do this at a a range you should be kicked out - if you have a safety violation at a range your day should be over - if it's severe you should be DONE there ! Firearms are not toys & if you don't know how to use them get proper training . Follow 4 safety rules & life will continue. Don't & bad shit happens .

[@rwjones25]

Don’t disagree with anything you said, but there are degrees. I don’t like zero tolerance rules. Especially in the AD department, what if ammo was the cause (raised primer etc.). What about sending an extra round with a semi auto?

[@im4ak2]

What scope in fde (ral8000) do you recomend for a sig sauer 716g2 dmr in 6.5cm?

[@fhsauce]

We have fps restrictions to protect targets, we should have trigger pull weight limits to protect our asses. Anything less than 16oz for a practical match with movement is insane IMHO, who knows what this guy had his set to but I feel like having a bit heavier trigger may reduce similar issues. Also disagree on differentiating between negligent and accidental, just because it's accidental will that make somebody with the new extra hole in them feel better? Single rule single consequence. I did listen to Frank's podcast on this and he brought up that if someone that had an ND self identified then it could go as just a stage zero but if an RO or someone else had to call you out it was match DQ. Initially I thought this sounded reasonable but after thinking about it I feel like leaving any room for interpretation on the severity of the ND (did it hit a berm? did it still hit the target? did it hit the moon?) could lead to the political crap where the Hero shooter gets a pass but Rando is screwed.

[@bobbygonzon5428]

I totally agree with the shooter being disqualified if there was a negligent discharge. Also I seen the video where he was awarded an extra point at this match. Some people will blame the RO, but they have to remember that she was most likely the spotter and did not actually see what the shooter was doing. Remember you are responsible for that bullet until it comes to an end.

[@SamFisher1957]

I was trained that ever shooter is a RO so there no reason for this.

[@YuanMizzle]

Huh? Isn't it Wednesday? Whatever... just happy to see another video from ya! Was getting worried!

[@matthewpeck4016]

ND? Bye Buddy, hope you find your dad.

[@mmgee]

I'm sorry guy, but your done...

[@SamFisher1957]

As someone that doesn't compete i think a ND should forces you to take a safety class before being able to compete in the next match. For AD your done for the day even if you have a backup, my reasoning is your head is now out of the game and could lead to a ND.

[@scottgti20t]

If my gun cooked off a round or had some kind of failure to cause an AD... Why would that make me put my finger on the trigger? Something I explicitly trained myself not to do? How does an AD make u likely to have an ND.... That makes no sense. If anything the AD shook u up a bit. U won't perform as well because now ur thinking about what happened. In doing so u'd be as safe as possible... Which would slow u down.

[@SamFisher1957]

It makes a lot of sense your stress to make up point in a stressful environment most people would not slow down. The hole point of competition is that your competitive and competitive people want to win.

[@scottgti20t]

@@SamFisher1957 not that u want to slow down but u will because ur distracted.

[@SamFisher1957]

Just some food for thought in the military there are no such thing as a AD there all treated as ND witch can lead to a court martial.

[@nickh4560]

I don't think it's harsh at all. It's cut and dry in my book. Absolutely too dangerous no matter why it happened. I understand that equipment can sometimes fail, however a failure of that magnitude can kill, and that is more than enough reason to get that person or equipment off of the line

[@adamknapp653]

If a negligent discharge becomes more of an issue how about creating a rule that the shooter has to say "fire" right before every shot? I actually would find that annoying, but it would make a discharge clearly defined.

[@scottgti20t]

I agree with u there. They got lucky with that shot. The next negligent discharge may not be so lucky to be in a safe direction