Make private schools pay VAT? Feat. Jemma Forte & Richard Tice | Jeremy Vine

Should private schools be made to pay VAT?
Labour has pledged to introduce a tax on private fees if they win power at the next general election and will invest revenue in state education.
Is this a good idea?
Jeremy is joined by Jemma Forte and Richard Tice to dicuss.
Jeremy Vine on 5 is on television every weekday at 9:15am until 1:30pm on Channel 5.
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[@067captain]

Why is it in this country if we see something successful, we have to destroy it. I and my family all went to state school. None of us went to university. But grammar schools were incredibly successful. My dad was proper working class. Outside toilet, the works. But he passed his 11 + and got a place at a grammar school. That opportunity lifted him out of poverty and made his life, and therefore mine, so much better. So we destroyed the 11+ and grammar schools. We are about to do the same in the private sector. Can’t have people succeeding. The politics of spite. When Labour enact this policy (unless Starmer does his usual and u turns), it is going to be a disaster!

[@madders8781]

Grammar schools are state-funded just as state schools and have absolutely no bearing on this argument other than there should be more of them for those very same opportunities and NO private schools where the wealthy get a free pass

[@madders8781]

*based on merit not your wallet

[@mikefreeman6808]

Can't control the masses if they are united. Division amongst the public is their main agenda, and it's working. Wake up!!!!

[@IPFreely-u2t]

@@madders8781 😂. Now it’s based on a bigger wallet. I expect Kier “Tool” Stammer did it on purpose so his wife can mingle with the Jet Set at the private school gates. How else will he make 100million after being prime minister! 😂

[@madders8781]

The average cost for private school education per year is £21,000, there are approx 615,000 in private education. that works out at just under £13 billion pounds on private education. £59.5 billion is spent on ALL THE OTHER CHILDREN thats over 9 MILLION!

[@SoloSi2024]

So you think that 50k plus a year isn't enough and you wanna charge them and extra 20% on top? If you want to improve state education why not campaign for all of us to pay more income tax? Oh no, sorry, you expect someone else to pay...

[@simonnay5278]

We pay VAT on almost everything, why are public schools any different?

[@andrewcoates9426]

Because it relieves pressure from the underfunded state sector

[@mrlee8703]

@@andrewcoates9426 Charging 20% VAT makes a lot of people quitting independent schools and changing to State Schools. How does this not increase pressure to state schools?

[@rebeccablech1140]

Public and private / independent are not the same thing. The latter are very vulnerable to this proposed policy - both families and the schools themselves. For many, it would only take a handful of parents to withdraw their children for the whole school to fold, creating even more pressure on the state system that already does not have sufficient numbers of places or staff.

[@jelenaa9838]

All valid points... Plus, HMRC is saying that VAT is not applicable to education! So what Labour is doing is discriminatory and makes a dangerous case/ example for the future. It means they will be able choose and pick the people and tax them as they wish, especially if they know this particular group is not their voters! Putin does similar in Russia, in small steps he destroyed the democracy and changed the laws into his interests and power.

[@richardleach5514]

Hmrc VAT states that providing educational services is "exempt" from VAT like many other things - university fees being using in the same example as private school fees by HRMC. As far as the "charity" argument goes HRMC doesn't care. It's the service that an organisation supplies that determines whether VAT payable and not whether the organisation is a business or a charity

[@anthonymarsh880]

Why can't the parents claim back the 7.5k that the state is saving by not educating their children. Perhaps all parents should have the choice of a state education or have the 7,5k it would cost to provide their own schooling.

[@user-zj2yb1qt3d]

I don’t have problem with private schools, 93% can’t afford it now anyway. Adding vat will probably only mean 95% can’t do private schools. What’s the problem. Everything else has to charge vat.

[@erichalfbee503]

Nope. You dont pay VAT on fees from other non-profit making organisations and thats the key fact - these schools are not allowed to make a profit, they sink the money back into the school including things that are often shared with state schools and outside organisations like sports facilities.

[@rebeccablech1140]

If Labour want to 1) increase already crippling pressure on state schools, 2) drive up disadvantage for kids with SEN, 3) reduce diversity of educational options (hitting small independents and Montessori/Steiner most) and 4) create an even more divided two-tier society, continue with this disastrous ideological policy. There are already not enough state school places so, by necessity it will also 5) drive up numbers of children dropping out of the school system to be home-educated/unschooled.

[@andrewrose7800]

VAT on education. Let's put VAT on school books and university fees. Bloody Labour, they think they are class warriers but are so out of touch, they don't understand parents who scrimp and save to provide what they think is decent education for the most important thing to them. It's their choice, they have difficulty, so let's make it harder. Let's place another burden on those who care.

[@alastairharris1866]

doh! VAT is a charge levied on the person paying the bill. Private schools won't be paying it. They might have to collect it though.

[@anthonymarsh880]

This really winds me up. These parents should pay more ? They're already contributing to a state system they aren't using.

[@michaelelliott556]

Record people in temporary accomodation record people using foodbanks lots if people cant afford internet none of them are remotely interested in the tax issues of private schools

[@AndyPerry1972]

I can confirm that when our eldest son left nursery about 13 years ago, at that time the nursery helped to complete an EHCP referral and he ended up going from there to a Special Needs school. There is absolutely no chance of him coping in a mainstream school. We couldn't afford to send him to a private (or independant?) school and to be honest, with severe learning difficulties, ADHD, Autism and a genetic mutation, a normal curriculum would have been useless. This was the best thing that could have happened as he loved it, he engaged with people and more than anything he still managed to learn most of the basics. He is non-verbal and has fine motor skills so can't write but he is engaging. Fast forward about 10 years and our other 2 children (not as severe) with autism and ADHD are now stuck because the council now says that the nursery can no longer apply and that they must go to a mainstream school and then, and ONLY then if that school refers for an EHCP will one be considered. Just like most things with the Health Service and the Council at the moment, everything is a battle. The school claims they are managing their needs, and they make a point frequently of saying how well they are doing and then at the end of the year we get the reports saying they are behind. On top of that, part of the support they should get is a support teacher to help. We had one for a few months who when we asked our son why he was getting answers correct at home yet 2 months on had not been moved off the 10 times table, we were told he isn't getting them right at school. We said he is getting anxious at home as he gets every one correct and when we followed it up, the support teacher simply put the paper on the desk, our son would scribble over it and they would come back and mark it as 0. A few months later that teacher left and was never replaced. And yet we are supposed to be able (by law) to be able to apply ourselves for an EHCP.....which we have done several times now only to be told that the school has to agree and the school say they are managing. I am not expecting my kids to be top of the class but I am expecting them to go to school and be able to engage and not mask for several hours and step out of school exploding. So I fully get that there SHOULD be special schools, but like most things, the council just want to fob you off and reject everything. I agree the education system needs improvement and maybe if the council din't try to put this pressure on, more of those people ending up paying for independent schools for kids with special needs wouldn't need to. The other thing is that all other council and health services to get help for these things all demand an EHCP as a starting point in to the system! Sorry for the long rant 🙂

[@richardleach5514]

Itll increase the house prices within the catchment areas of the better state schools

[@ageordieboy]

There shouldn’t be a need for private schools The state system should be gold standard for the tax we all pay.

[@mrnatty122]

Yes Mr Starmer add vat on fees, after all it didn't affect your parents when you went to a private grammar school because they had a bursary.

[@lindacurrie8817]

Once upon a time the state schools had swimming pool and playing fields.... GONE. State schools are now crumbling around our children. Private school is a business not a charity and latter does very little within the community not near enough to obtain charitable status.

[@SoloSi2024]

Seriously though, how is that the fault of private schools. Wealthier parents are already paying more income tax than average too. What more can they do?

[@martynwright2519]

Many private schools were set up as charities many many years ago, offer scholarships and allow state schools and communities use their facilities- charitable

[@madders8781]

@@SoloSi2024 they are paying exactly the same tax as those that get paid less. That is how the system works. If they had exactly the same wages then they wouldn't have to pay more tax. People arguing about who pays more tax is ridiculous when the ACTUAL argument who gets paid more for the jobs they do. I put fire service much higher than Bankers and politicians on a scale of earning for what they do

[@SoloSi2024]

@@madders8781 So you'd be happy to pay some more income tax then to help state schools? Clearly 1.5 billion vat take won't be enough. Let's all join in.

[@mrnatty122]

How do you think you will benefit from the money the government makes from changing vat on fees? I can tell you now it won't be put into public services, it will just get squandered your quality of life will not change.

[@michaelashworth4172]

Went to a private school (in UK) from 1969 to 1978 and it was fantastic. Phenomenal teachers who really engaged us. I can't fault it. Or couldn't. For the last 7 years, I've taught Diversity at a Business School in Paris. 90% of the students have a background like mine: i.e virtually no diversity. I realize now, having worked the last 40 years, that not being exposed to diversity early on is a real liability. Learning to embrace diversity is a much better preparation for life.

[@MrNelford]

Those that can’t, teach. Those that can’t teach, teach a waste of space topic like diversity.

[@MarkPike-zm2uu]

Is anyone else wondering why the teachers went out on strike

[@IPFreely-u2t]

Love it! The Jealous Labour Party voters have actually managed to make private school more elitist. Extra 20% will not affect the real wealthy. In fact they will take the view (Real Wealthy parents) that the last of the Riff Raff (Poorest private school kids)have been banished to State sector. Expect a massive building boom at Private Schools and improvements. The VAT can now be reclaimed on all new capital expenditure, the money for new buildings will actually come from wealthy old school boy donors. I expect Labour will actually lose money on this. All funded by Taxpayers!😂😂😂 (Even buildings built in the last 8 years can claim all the VAT back) Why on earth would you make something more expensive if it was actually take the burden off the state system?🤦🏼‍♂️ Well done chaps. Keep it up. Sent from my iPhone

[@davidmchale5890]

I have no problem with private schools The argument against Labour putting VAT on private schools is always about the parents who can only afford it if there is no VAT but how many go these schools who can afford to pay the VAT?

[@jamesbond7107]

I've always been against private schools, I don't believe on the teaching side there the difference is class sizes. On a personal side. I believe it's elitist,

[@teem5642]

People should have a choice to life they choose though

[@madders8781]

@@teem5642 that would be great if we all had the same money, i think is the point

[@Joanna7428]

There's a belief that all users of the private system are incredibly well off, its not true. Our family re mortaged the house to pay for my brother to go into private school, we didn't have holidays we scrimped to pay the fees, it was done with the best intention at the time but it cost £1000s. You make it more expensive, many families will not be able to make it. Whatever you think of private schools i believe in choice

[@dijoyjoe]

Make them pay

[@avrilmcintyre892]

Politics of envy and grievance

[@jbrooks8542]

Have these people who won't be able to afford the increase considered getting a better job or cancelling their Netflix subscriptions?

[@robertbose990]

They will need to find better jobs as they will need a further £20k per year

[@lindacurrie8817]

​@@robertbose990There is always the option to take on a second job, work harder and do not buy a coffee when out and about. What is good for the goose and all that...

[@howardvarley8795]

Spot on mate, now tell all the people using food banks to give up their cigs, vapes, booze, tele and bingo.

[@AmSam-tp4ck]

It's the politics of envy! They envy those who can afford the VAT and feel entitled to their children receiving a huge advantage over their peers, tax free!

[@user-mg3xn2tl3e]

The question shouldn't be, should private schools pay vat, the question should be should public school pay vat when private schools isn't!

[@teem5642]

Parents don't pay to send their kids to public school, so no vat.

[@andrewjackson8089]

What VAT for public school parents?

[@paulperry8800]

Like crabs in a bucket. Just pulling those who try to climb out, back into the cooking pot

[@AmSam-tp4ck]

If the crab can afford private education in the first place, they are already out of the pot.

[@paulperry8800]

@AmSam-tp4ck are they? I served my country for 22 years and still suffer the effects of that every day. I'd say I'm still in the pot, but my children shouldn't be pulled back in by mealy mouthed imbeciles.

[@martinturtak4901]

Outlaw private school so rich people don't have other choice but to make state schools good

[@SoloSi2024]

Are you saying that state schools are bad?

[@Bertieboy-v7y]

They already pay for state schools.... which they don't use, why should they pay more ?

[@erichalfbee503]

That woman really doesnt like facts and quickly moves away from her mistakes very quickly. She hasnt got a clue despote how much she waves her arms about. Bottom line, people sending their kids to private schools are paying twice, once through tax and once through their own pockets. For every child that comes out of a private school because their parents cant afford the extra costs, there is an additional burdon of £7,000 per year on the tax payer and an increase in class sizes. Labours politics of envy despite the fact that many of those champagne socialists went to these schools - but then again, millionaire Labour politicians will still be able to afford it.

[@AmSam-tp4ck]

People who have been getting this huge advantage for their children -- tax free, mind you -- are complaining because they won't be able to afford VAT. Politics of envy against those who can afford the VAT.

[@erichalfbee503]

@@AmSam-tp4ck So should all non profit making organisations now charge VAT? We should be giving people tax breaks (as well as VAT) for taking the health and schooling burden away from the state - they are saving us money!

[@AmSam-tp4ck]

@@erichalfbee503 Those non-profit-making organisations which are charities should be exempt from VAT. Private schools do not fit into this category. People who buy their children a place at a private school are not doing it for ‘us’ - they are doing it to give their children an edge over ours. Bully for them that they can and do, but why should we give them a tax break when purchasing a step up over other children?

[@erichalfbee503]

@@AmSam-tp4ck So thats where you are 100% wrong. They are charities and even though Labour are intending to make them charge VAT they are not stripping them of their charitable status. You are correct that these parents are not doing it for the benefit of the tax payer but nobody can argue that the tax payer doesnt benefit from it! You clearly fall into the category of people who want to tax and tax some more for those who are better off and even those who struggle to put their kids in these schools and charging VAT will push them over teh edge meaning that the burdon of their childrens edication will fall back on the tax payer. The politics of envy is strong but never makes sense.

[@AmSam-tp4ck]

@@erichalfbee503 Yes, unfortunately Labour has decided against removing the charitable status label for private schools, but at least they will still be removing their VAT exempt status. Have your charity label and welcome, we'll gladly accept the VAT without it. On to your next point, of course people can argue that tax payers don't benefit from the existence of private schools! Their very existence lowers the regard and esteem given to the state schools we are all paying for. The children of privilege who attend private schools (representing 7% of the population) already have huge advantages over the other 93%, and attending a private school only serves to elevate them even further above competition on a level playing field. It is absurd to suggest that maintaining institutions that ring-fence privilege and opportunity for the children of 7% of the population is benefiting the other 93% who are shut out from all the benefits that come in the wake of a private education. I won't argue that I fall into the category of people who want to impose more tax on those who are better off -- that should be painfully obvious, or else I'm not communicating clearly enough -- and quite honestly, no, I don't have a lot of sympathy for those who 'struggle to put their kids in these schools.' I can imagine 'the politics of envy' would not make sense to someone who is in a position to afford to send their child to such a school, even if it is a struggle. If you feel sorry for yourself because that is your struggle, then you have a very different notion of struggle from a huge portion of the population, and be grateful for it. I suspect the politics of envy make as much sense to you as the politics of privilege make to me. Meritocracy and a level playing field is an ideal that becomes more appealing the further down the ladder one is, but I suppose sending your children out to compete on a level playing field might not sound as appealing when you know you can buy them a ticket out of it. Fortunately, this discussion is no longer merely a hypothetical one. Labour has won a large enough majority that the enormously popular step of imposing VAT on private education should soon become a reality, and, if you are right, more people will soon have a vested interest in making sure that we do all we can to make our state schools the best schools in the world.

[@kriskah2348]

Mindless individuals who think everyone earns over £120k to send a child to independent school is not the case most are average earners making sacrifices to educate child. Clearly, the current education model does not work adding to it with increasing pupils will add to issues. Also, we pay taxes for state education which my child does not benefit from but pays for private education. If this is applied, it should be applied to University Fee's also then its a fair thoughout policy.

[@madders8781]

"punish hard working parents".... so unless you have children in private education you are lazy, and all parents that have put their in worked hard from poverty?? If the line is hard working parents then set up a means tested voucher for those that struggle with the VAT increase. BOOM!!! ps poverty stricken Sunak's family put 3 children in 50k per year spots. hands up who else has 150k spare if you didn't have sky TV? Anyone?

[@AmSam-tp4ck]

Why do parents buy a private education for their children? Because they know that having a private education will give their children an advantage over their peers whose parents cannot (or, in some cases, choose not to) afford a private education. It's not merely a product of quality of instruction or class size either: in addition to being educational institutions, private schools are, inevitably, social institutions, and they function as exclusive social clubs for children from affluent families. When you buy a private education for your child, you also receive as an added bonus a ready-made network of influential connections that will benefit that child for the rest of her or his life. They will form strong bonds with peers who will one day inherit wealth, property, businesses, political legacies and social standing that others outside their school will have to fight very hard to gain. A private education is therefore an extremely valuable and, understandably, an extremely costly product. A private education is an unfair advantage that one can, provided they have the means, purchase for their child. I frankly struggle to understand how anyone justifies giving people a tax break to purchase such a product.

[@leekiwoo9300]

I disagree with this. I work in Psychiatry and mostly SEN children are sent there with half burseries provided by the private school. School refusal is going skyrocket due to anxiety and parents opt for private education as a mean to provide smaller class for their ADHD and ASD child. They benefit alot from such a small number of pupils. Some parents even get school loans and borrow money from grandparents so that their child can attend school. I know for sure after this some of the parents wont afford this and they will send their child back to state school who failed them previously. But oh well, lets just tax education. The problem with Labour is they never get in touch with people working in the field and they just implement some policy that is going to crash the system.

[@AmSam-tp4ck]

@@leekiwoo9300 There are a couple of problems with what you've put forward. First, the VAT will not be imposed on children with special needs, so it should not make a difference to them. Second, as I suggested previously, for those who will be subject to the tax, it is not a tax on education, it is a tax on membership/participation in an exclusive social club. The government makes an education available to everyone without levying an additional tax on families with schoolchildren.

[@sallybrant3042]

Will people PLEASE stop using the word "struggling" within the context of parents paying for private schools? 😫 I'm calling this The Snob Tax.

[@user-gd1yg6le1h]

Tice is such a liar.

[@juniormartin3528]

tice was always a liar.

[@sparkiefire8525]

No , he just has different opinion.

[@seankelly3774]

@@sparkiefire8525no he is a liar and he knows it

[@davidpearn2484]

Tice don't half talk some shite, look how this country ended up with privately educated people now running this country, if you can't afford the VAT don't send them simples.

[@neilbowler7866]

Take labour to the ICHR Rich!! 😂

[@user-zj2yb1qt3d]

Let’s get rid of stat schools they are to much of a burden on the tax payers. Plus they would be pay twice for there kids to be educated. 😂

[@avrilmcintyre892]

Politics of envy

[@johnstokes111]

I went to a private school and it is clear to me that they are all businesses and should be VATable. Lots of them have set up profitable offshoots in Asia. That is the action of a business not a charity!

[@avrilmcintyre892]

Says someone who took advantage of system what hypocrisy

[@peterk4626]

Tice is a waking nightmare!

[@leeskinka]

Public schools should be abolished, end of.

[@avrilmcintyre892]

Politics of envy

[@leeskinka]

@@avrilmcintyre892 politics of equality my friend. If you've benefited from privilege then I'm sure equality will feel like oppression, first the schools then the wealth, the left are coming for you.

[@seankelly3774]

@@avrilmcintyre892what is envious about creating a fairer system rather than one that gives the already privileged more benefits. You”re talking nonsense. I sent my daughter to private school but think I should have paid VAT. Studies also show the number of students affected by this is less than 5 per cent so these right wing nonsense arguments that the builder&hairdresser can”t send their little Johny to private school because of VAT on fees is just another fat lie.

[@avrilmcintyre892]

Sean hypocrisy after the fact. You didn't quite so object when you didn't pay.

[@Funintherain13]

@@seankelly3774the already privileged? What a clout. The reason why people send their children to private school is the inadequacy of the state alternative. Privilege does not come into it.

[@kennethmaley2443]

Why did some labour mps send there children to private school to name one Diane abbot.

[@CEO786]

Well if you can afford it then why not.

[@SoloSi2024]

So when the VAT starts rolling in, state school teachers will get a pay rise? 🤣

[@aaronjohnson6916]

“Don’t dumb things down” what an arse.

[@andrewjackson8089]

By sending my kid to private school I free up resources for the poor people….

[@avrilmcintyre892]

Sean rather ironic you sent your daughter to private school and now you make such comments. What utter hypocrisy after the fact.