Making Age of Sigmar | The Bad Beginning

In 2015 the world was introduced to a brand new high fantasy IP from Games Workshop - Age of Sigmar!
In this making of documentary Jordan Sorcery looks at the key business factors, decisions, developers, and designers behind the creation of the first edition of Age of Sigmar. The removal of points, simplified rules, joke special abilities, the arrival of the Stormcast, and so much more is covered. Including interview footage, information, and stories from several of the people involved.
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References, Sources, and Links:
[Goonhammer AoS Launch Retrospective]
www.goonhammer...
[Goonhammer AoS 5 Year Retrospective]
www.goonhammer....
[Goonhammer James Hewitt Interview]
www.goonhammer...
[Wrinkletooth's AoS Release History Document]
docs.google.co...
[Talking Miniatures - Amazon Affiliate Link]
amzn.to/3xAnWDW
[Jervis Johnson Interview - Jordan Sorcery]
jordansorcery....
[Alan Merrett In Conversation with Jordan Sorcery]
• Talking Warhammer with...
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[@jordansorcery]

If you’re picking up AoS 4 (or any other hobby supplies) you can use my Element Games affiliate link to support the channel: elementgames.co.uk/?d=11216

[@georgebow23]

Just bagged the new box on your link. Was great to meet you at Salute. Thanks for getting me through marathon training with your videos !

[@Rob-nq6br]

Good shout! Will do!

[@vermelsilk5833]

Great.. now. Tell me the story behind the GHB's !!!

[@LSOP-]

Nah, just buy tow instead.

[@jaimiting]

I'm never going to forgive Games Workshop for destroying the Old World, so no Age of Sigmar for me. Even though the new Skaven are as cool as hell I will reject them.

[@stuffandnonsense8528]

'I'm going to try to not dwell on The End Times too much' is what I say to myself each day as I wake.

[@The_Captain40k]

What end times? Nothing happened right? Right?!

[@stuffandnonsense8528]

@@The_Captain40k actually I tend to peddle a theory to exactly that effect. AoS is just what's inside the Great Vortex, it is a fake apocalypse designed to trick chaos into conquering a pocket dimension. Clever Caledor.

[@AM-uw3gp]

End times ? Never heard of it myself

[@stuffandnonsense8528]

@@Vasily_Kotickovitch there's no need to be nasty, I was just joking. If you want to have a serious and civil conversation about it then that's fine. As it happens I'm not a big fan of the Vermintide games, not that I concede your point about enjoying The End Times and enjoying Vermintide being inextricably linked.

[@stuffandnonsense8528]

@@Vasily_Kotickovitch enjoying the lore of Vermintide is, I'll grant, something allied to enjoying the lore of AoS, but I don't think that determines enjoyment of the game more generally. But as I say, I'm not a massive fan anyway.

[@DuncanRhodesDRPA]

Great video and brings back some WHTV memories lol 😅

[@jordansorcery]

I’ll bet it does! Cheers mate

[@karlfranz8345]

(bows downs) My Emperor.

[@diarmuidmcdonald1867]

😂

[@user-ub1dz8js7s]

Elrond: 'I was there Gandalf, when AoS was just a 2 page rule set !'.

[@beregondibram2985]

I still have the 1st starter mostly unpacked hah. Dumb me bought the thing in middle school

[@craigjones7343]

I remember getting a copy of those rules and thinking ‘WTF?!? How can a war game have only 2 pages?’

[@MattyRlufc]

"I was there the day the strength of the writing failed"

[@highmarshalbalian680]

Ya and they sucked hard

[@MateuszKiwalczyk666]

​@@craigjones7343 And then OPR came and actually done that the way it should be done lol

[@danh945]

"Your miniatures are the real eternals". Yeahhhhh... about that.

[@daviddines479]

That interview with Alan Merrett does not make me think good things.

[@MannnisEi]

What's wrong with it?

[@daviddines479]

@@MannnisEi Well I decided I didnt like it when he was talking about people asking him "when are you going to make goblin kit in plastic, and then goes on (in my opinion) to use a deriding tone of voice to answer the question with "we'll make them when we can sell enough". The comment and the way he said it seemed very inline with my perception of GWs attitude to products prices and customers.

[@ismael9914]

It's a know thing the CEO during that time was a huge asshole, that forced his vision on things of the wargame he did not have any idea. So I guess a lot of workers had to follow his bad decisions (no points per models, little to no rules, and the weird ones) despite them knowing what would be best

[@daviddines479]

@@ismael9914 Yeah absolutely. I mused elsewhere did GW make him like that or did he make GW more like that. The money train has a way of dragging people onboard.

[@mogwaiman6048]

@@daviddines479 it has to yield a return to justify additional investment. 🤷‍♂️

[@blackdenim23]

Great job covering a somewhat fraught topic Jordan! I’m hoping that with the success of the Old World we can at last have three mighty fantasy settings from GW!

[@Basil_Ghothickovitch]

Why three? There is only one undivided and indivisible Warhammer 40,000 Ages of Sigmar! ❤‍🔥*Sapienti sat*

[@elijahherstal776]

>Success of Old World Dude like five people play that game on any given continent, max.

[@toferkrz946]

The comment section is surprisingly civil for a channel focused on retro Warhammer Fantasy. Good job Jordan for covering the topic and good job everyone for not getting on each others' throats... too much.

[@CanalTremocos]

Don't know about the others but I'm too busy seething in anger about things that happened 10 minutes ago to seethe in anger about things that happened last decade. 😝

[@dominickirwan7436]

AoS as a setting just falls flat for me, sadly. I think that there are whole model ranges and factions lore that I have zero interest in, and I never felt that way about 40k or fantasy. I have no issue with it existing, but it's not for me

[@thealldayspecial]

Yeah I was never crazy about Stormcasts whole m.o.

[@m.w.wollacott8179]

I still want my plastic forest goblin and night goblin army. Fanatics, massed cloaked ranks, wolf riders and spider riders. I always loved the mass armies including 40k epic. Big monsters are fine but for me it was always about the armies and the tactics (the latter to compensate for my terrible dice rolls).

[@johnnybigbones4955]

Shieldwolf Miniatures does plastic Forest Goblins in a pretty GW style. They're a greek company, I think?

[@m.w.wollacott8179]

@@johnnybigbones4955 I'll have a gander. Thanks mate.

[@psycojester]

Check out Conquest by Para Bellum. It's like WFB with better rules and more tactical depth.

[@colinmoffat5215]

And had you bought enough of them... that would have happened. That's how companies work

[@johnf.kennedy5454]

They only want to sell huge $100+ models that can only be purchasedfrom them and no one else.. They are not interested in rank and file troops and they haven't been interested in read Tactics since 3rd Edition. They want rules suitable for 10 year olds not adults.

[@jonathan2950]

As someone who stopped playing GW games in the late 90s, and only came back a few years ago, I find AoS too weird to get into. I don’t really have a clue what’s going on with the setting and it doesn’t make much sense to me. I’ll just stick with Warhammer Fantasy and the original dungeon crawlers AHQ and WHQ95.

[@itsallfunandgames723]

One thing I'll say about AoS lore, it doesn't matter how good it is, or how horrific it is, barely anybody will ever know about it.

[@Basil_Ghothickovitch]

How no one knew or cared about the Old World until the Total War saga began. So we are waiting for *Warhammer Age of Sigmar: Total War*

[@mogwaiman6048]

@@itsallfunandgames723 all that matters is miniature sales. Lore is supplemental.

[@dekai7992]

​@@mogwaiman6048 The lore is supposed to support miniature sales, though, e.g. by providing a backdrop for why your toy soldiers fight your buddy's toy soldiers.

[@mogwaiman6048]

@@dekai7992 that's why i said lore is supplemental. AOS provides that backdrop like all the other GW games do. Players also create their own stories.

[@dekai7992]

@@mogwaiman6048 Gotcha. I misread what you said.

[@MiniatureRealms]

This was brilliant, you really nailed the angle on this.

[@jordansorcery]

Cheers Stu!

[@michaelgrey1351]

I am a simple man - I see a Jordan Sorcery video, I hit LIKE.

[@user-qi1jc1yn3o]

There I was thinking I was original in doing exactly that, now I feel like I am part of a cult or something 😅

[@darkroom0716]

Glad you are doing a vid on the history of the *game*, too often I search for stuff lime this only to find in-universe lore rather than the history and development of the game and models.

[@square721bt]

Dude this is awesome. I love all the first-degree sources, great history keeping!

[@swabilius]

How do you only have 18k subs, a travesty!

[@Raygun9000]

My intiatial take would be the thumbnails. Then perhaps the channel name (not great for searches). Great content hidden within unappealing packaging. The first bite is with the eye. The first video from this channel that I watched was because the title overcame my dislike of the thumbnail. 😊

[@AM-uw3gp]

@@Vasily_Kotickovitch same reason I don’t sub to any AOS channels really, I mean it exists as a game but I don’t have to like it lol

[@vivalaliberty]

AoS and that End of times went into the book of grudges. It is still written in there.

[@ImperialGit]

Definitely. Never forget, never forgive.

[@03dashk64]

That interview with Johnson always rubbed me the wrong way. “Something drastic needed to be done to save Warhammer” AOS didn’t save Warhammer. It killed it. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t care about it existing. It isn’t for me for many reasons (models and more mainly) but I’m glad people enjoy it. But its creation ended WHFB. It didn’t save anything. If GW wanted to save WHFB they needed to find a better way to onboard new players. The enormous up front cost of the game is what caused it to stagnate. TOW honestly has the same problem, coupled with the glacial release schedule and inability to actually purchase anything.

[@c00bie]

Thank you Jordan, for all these videos you have created. No matter how the next 6 months go your videos will always be there, as gems in the youtube treasure horde.

[@CrimsonTemplar2]

A very well presented look at a tumultuous time.

[@malaketh]

Cracking video that cuts through a lot of the rubbish spouted about this time. That being said, one thing I remember from the early lore was the “fake lore” that popped up. I knew folk that frequented different GW shops across the UK and they all were told different stuff by the employees to sell this new game. I was told the Seraphon were now going to have angel wings in the lore to match their new angel like name. A friend of mine was convinced that the fyreslayers were edgy dragon hunters that rode dragons in order to hunt dragons. From what I have been able to gather, this was just GW employees trying to sell minis with limited info during the early stages of release. I still see weird fake lore crop up from time to time.

[@Guy1ncognito]

Great video. Keen for the end times video and further history of AoS vids.

[@brentnelson8137]

Thank you for making this! We've needed this video

[@RSBurgener]

I was one of the people who was rubbed the wrong way by the "callous" transition of WHFB to AoS. At the time, it did feel arbitrary and stupid. I wasn't made to understand the necessity of it. I had bought a lot of products the previous year that I barely got to use and I wasn't happy about it. Nowadays, I love the models, but something about the tone of AoS is unappealing to me. Perhaps it is High Fantasy vs Dark Fantasy, AoS being the former. It has an almost Disney-like quality in places that I find unfortunate and hard to get past. I'm sure it's a fine game, it just feels like it's for someone else, someone who didn't play Fantasy and wasn't invested in it, perhaps someone younger than I am.

[@mogwaiman6048]

I know quite a few oldhammer guys and middlehammer guys like myself that play AoS. The setting balances it's dark moments with hope.

[@Keram-io8hv]

​@@mogwaiman6048My friend once summed difference between fantasy and Aos as "So in fantasy they were fighting but you knew they can't hold forever and one day they will die" while AoS is more like "They are fighting for better tommorow no matter what it takes"

[@mogwaiman6048]

@@Keram-io8hv yeah the setting allows for there to be more than a doomsday clock going on.

[@franzt8955]

Warhammer fantasy is also high fantasy

[@elijahherstal776]

AoS is getting a bit less over the top. Hell, even this latest batch of Stormcast Eternals look less embarassing than the boring ones from before.

[@gabrielwalton4097]

As someone who is a fan of Age of Sigmar, the weirdness of it's beginning always throws me off 😆 excellent video as usual!

[@LSOP-]

How - it's awful. You should play the old world now that it's back.

[@gabrielwalton4097]

@@LSOP- I play and enjoy both for different reasons, but I'm leaning more towards Hobgoblin or historicals for Rank And Flank games currently. Warhammer Fantasy appeals to me more as a roleplaying setting than a wargame to be honest!

[@Basil_Ghothickovitch]

@@gabrielwalton4097 No one will play in the Old World when it has such a totalitarian community. You will order people what they like and what to play, this cannot be tolerated.

[@craigprothero4402]

Was a pleasure to meet you yesterday at Warhammer World Jordan! Hope you had a great day 👍🤘 keep up the awesome work !

[@yorkshireotter7189]

As a lapsed Warhammer Fantasy player the main thing that stopped me from wanting to return and take a look at Age Of Sigmer was that there was just so much change for clearly cynical reasons. Oh look, there are some space marines but without guns, how original.... Now all the armies have new made up names and that's not at all just so they can be copyrighted names after GW lost the battle over space marines...

[@mogwaiman6048]

It wasn't cynical though, WHFB hadn't been doing well for years.

[@yorkshireotter7189]

@mogwaiman6048 I never said change wasn't needed. The nature of the way they seem to have made a lot of these changes was though.

[@mogwaiman6048]

@@yorkshireotter7189 i don't think it was at all. The company just made a more profitable long term decision. Could the execution have been better? Absolutely. But that's the benefit of hindsight speaking.

[@nuttyknatty]

I think it’s a stretch to call creating a fantasy version of Space Marines cynical. They are a hugely successful IP for GW, I can see how it would make good business sense to attempt to replicate this to a new audience. And why would new made up names be an issue? I feel some enthusiasts look for reasons that just aren’t there, when it simply an aesthetic that they don’t like. But I could be wrong.

[@Archaeologyhat]

​@@nuttyknatty i like my stupid fantasy names as much as the next nerd - but the age of sigmar (and some newer 40k kits) have a lot of units/monsters which have names that just completely slide off my brain - this was especially bad early on in AoS - the bloodwotsits et al and anything in the fyreslayer range (compounded by their entire range being naked dwarfs with a big hat) compared to the older naming schemes - they're called assault marines because they're marines who assault things or high elf spearmen who are high elves with spears - it can be harder to work out what a particular kit is supposed to even be if you're only passingly invested. some of the newer AoS factions did a lot better with this - the fish elves and not-high elves both read pretty well as well as lizardmen and skaven not being too bad possibly as a result of not really changing from their fantasy battle versions

[@MadhouseMinis]

Ive never seen those John Blanche AoS illustrations. Man, totally different vibes to most of the art i normally see. Awesome

[@Basil_Ghothickovitch]

It was John Blanche who created the concept art for the Stormcast Eternals, the Kharadron Overlords, the Idoneth Deepkin, the Nighthounts, and so on. Warhammer Age of Sigmar is his child as well as 40k.

[@noops9220]

This was a very fair and honest approach to what was a difficult time for some people. Nice work

[@Mark-nh2hs]

Lol I was frantically searching if I had missed the End Times (8th Ed) Warhammer history 😂 only saw up to 7th Ed. Can breath easily now.

[@scottbarber2736]

I’m starting with fourth after having been a disenchanted “end times” WFB fan. You explained this perfectly. Well done!

[@limarismenos]

I was there, Jordan. When Geedubs broke the old world into a thousand pieces and plunged the fantasy world into darkness. I was also there when the Old World was born again and a new age of light began.

[@Basil_Ghothickovitch]

Light and the “Old World” are incompatible concepts

[@elijahherstal776]

So what's it like buying 2 decade old models for like five times the original price, just to play a game that maybe five old grognards within 200 miles are interested in?

[@LordoftheSith]

@@elijahherstal776100% it’s a nostalgia cash grab

[@Fueledchaos]

Another great video! But I have to disagree with Alan; as Forest Goblins would sell like Hot Cakes!

[@mogwaiman6048]

I think he means the infantry, which they had to discontinue.

[@jordansorcery]

Cheers Hamilton! I still can’t believe the amazing plastic grot scutterlers from Silver Tower - all this goblinoid gatekeeping!

[@darrenrichardson6146]

@@jordansorcery I still can't believe GW hasn't made a proper kit with them in it yet, especially since the Silver Tower adversaries sprue has some useful Tanazogor and Acylate models on it.

[@StrengthHammer]

Thanks for making such a great video. Had me reminiscing back to the the time when WHFB ended and AoS began and the small few of us who were connected via Social Media as we played and enjoyed the new game system while doing our parts to help it grow in those early wild west days.

[@aaronbasham6554]

I've still never given AoS a full chance, cause Warhammer Fantasy was my escape from really bad stuff happening irl and only social interaction outside of family. Even though I ended up with a bunch of the ghosts because I like their design, I never liked the world having none of the grounding of Warhammer Fantasy that caused me to love it so much.

[@Basil_Ghothickovitch]

Most of my сuriously assembled Warhammer Collection are old vintage fantasy miniatures on round and oval bases, adapted for the Mortal Realms. This is because Warhammer Age of Sigmar is based on totally brilliant ideas: Freedom, Creativity and Aesthetics. Combined with natural looking organic round bases and the freedom to invent your own unique custom color schemes, it's truly feast for the eyes. No one can give the same pleasure.⚜

[@conormurphy8447]

Great retrospective thank you! Looking forward to more.

[@MarkusMaximus2000]

It's a fascinating era of the hobby and one I think had many contributing factors to the overall tone and reception of the transition from WFB to AoS. It was a dark time for GW in general (around this time you were rewarded Command Points for each £10 spent in the store which could be redeemed for painting time, table time or even in-game advantages against your opponents. Absolute peak cynicism). I think the change from the very defined and restricted game system of WFB to the freedom and lack of direction of AoS was a shock to the system. As you said there was an absolute air of seriousness amongst anyone deep into WFB and this was a mindset that needed to be abandoned to embrace the new game. It was also an age where social media echo chambers were exploding and it was increasingly easy for people to become tribal in opinion and find lots of loud voices that echoed their feelings (sometimes to the extreme - looking at you Mr Dark Elf Army Burner). What felt, to me, was a lite pilot ruleset to introduce a completely new setting and games mechanics was quite insulting to others. Woe betide anyone speaking favourably about AoS1 as they quickly became an easy target to vent confused anger at while GW still had all their social media presences locked down. What I do find fascinating now is that reset and freedom to break from the old systems has put AoS at the forefront of the hobby often with rules and mechanics which end up in 40k. With 4th edition we are seeing Spearhead as a much more fleshed out and supported small game system compared to Combat Patrol which doesn't have much more than "Just play your start collecting boxes until you have a big enough armyto play the main rules". Love the insights as always and big up to the current AoS community. Absolutely brilliant.

[@Svengar]

Personally I found it a bit sad that a game with such a rich history was effectively thrown out and replaced by a new game which was very loose with everything rules, lore etc. I do take note of your comment about the fluff rules like the player with the biggest moustache getting an advantage etc being remembered much longer than they were actually in the game. That kind of stuff really turned me off and seemed to be a mockery of a real game. Whilst that all sounds negative, I don’t have anything against AOS or its players and it seems a bit mean spirited to try and pooh pooh someone else’s fun. Lots of the minis have been lovely sculpts and quite adaptable to those still interested in playing fantasy. The lore and rules too seem to have developed a lot over the years and some of it certainly sounds quite appealing such as the madness inherent to the flesh eater courts (they sound a bit like the Malkavian bloodline from the Worlds of Darkness RPG).

[@Rob-nq6br]

Flesheaters are FULLY Malkavians crossed with Brettonians and I love them for it

[@SuperDuperHappyTime]

The OG GHB is a great place for the next chapter. But it would be a miss to leave out the visual evolution of the Battletomes and Range Updates in the lead up to it. At this point, production had ceased on Brets and TKs, so there’s a point of hesitancy among the few players. Early books like Everchosen and Stormcast Extremis Chamber were very light and overly focused on models (not to mention the groans of more Stormcast on both a “I don’t like these” and “Another Book already?” Fronts). Fyreslayers were the first of what we consider an army for AoS, though we would think of it as too small, too niche a theme, and something that was cut from The End Times at the last minute. Later books would supplement that the army was right-size, but maybe the points level we play at leads to too much duplication of units for that size of force. Seraphon/Lizardmen would keep their size after all. Where things get good is books thereafter. Pestilens showed the team could still write fun lore for a smaller army. Ironjawz showed the new designs and was able to overcome the feelings of duplication by having distinct units with their own roles. Flesh-eater Courts added instructions on building the Crypt Flayer and Courtiers, simple head swaps that on paper look cheap, but in context sent the message to the few players that GW actually weren’t about to bin everyone’s entire collection (at least immediately). Finally, Sylvaneth, which was actually built with the planned changes for the GHB in mind.

[@dtw8446]

"Can't you just make them more like space marines?" That's the origin of Age of Sigmar, 100%.

[@Jackalblade9]

Awesome video as always, Jordan! By the time AoS came out, I'd fallen well out of the miniature wargaming hobby and didn't really have a squig in the fight when it came to old vs. new. Attempts to research it at the time mostly just led me to a lot of disagreement on social media and a great deal of confusion. The next time I really heard anything about it, a certain bard was unboxing Warhammer Quest: Silver Tower. And that was it until I found your channel. You've helped to clear up some misconceptions and you've got me salivating for a video on that General's Handbook! Hope we hear about it soon!

[@TheHobbyCorner]

AoS gave me the opportunity, that those only a few years older than me had with rogue trader, to say I was there when it started. I loved fantasy but AoS just made sense. The launch was rocky but the staff at GW really pulled together to get it going. I think a large part of its success came from Warhammer TV on twitch and the narrative campaigns (long live Archibald) they did along with the presenters too (Rob "the honest Wargamer" Symes for sure). Great video mate 🤘

[@LSOP-]

AoS "makes sense" you're a little addled there bud.

[@TheHobbyCorner]

@@LSOP- I was talking more in the sense of the game mechanics and the more free flowing maneuvers. But couldn't fit it all in as there's a character limit 😜

[@victortugelbend812]

Love this! Still don't really understand or care about the AoS lore though, and so lad we have the Old World back as well.

[@KateHolden]

I was an AoS hater back in the day. I'd been out of the hobby a while, glanced back in and went "eugh! What happened to my beloved Warhammer!? Who are these big silly looking fantasy space marines!?" ... and then, after returning to the hobby a bit later, during covid to play just 40k, 3rd ed AoS won me over with those incredible new Thunderstrike Stormcast and greater focus on events on the ground rather than in the heavens combined with strong games design. Now I'm extremely excited for 4th edition and hope to tempt D&D playing friends into playing Spearhead. I'm glad GW didn't give up and kept refining and improving the game after this shaky start!

[@spnked9516]

I don't mind AoS from a gameplay standpoint. I'd argue that, in terms of a skirmish style Warhammer game, it's currently the better version of 40k. However, that sorta hints towards the wider problem with AoS - it lacks its own identity. While undeniably in a better state than it was almost a decade ago, it still suffers heavily under the consequences of its own inception. It's still a mess of incoherent and disjointed ideas mashed together in a cynical attempt to obtain mass marketability. Best way I can think of describing AoS is like a big corporate toy box where green plastic army men share the same space with barbie dolls, Lego blocks, and any number of other dissimilar toys.

[@LordVader1094]

Sadly AoS has still failed to win me over. A Planescape ripoff with fantasy space marines will never live up to the grim world of perilous adventure that was Warhammer Fantasy for me. Then again so far, GW can't even do Warhammer Fantasy either judging from End Times and then TOW. Maybe I just need to go full grognard, if I'm not there already lol

[@iantellam9970]

@@LordVader1094 I mean WH Fantasy is hardly unique in its setting either, it’s just its own rip off of other fantasy worlds, it’s highly derivative. I mean you can prefer one or the other rip-off, but the only difference is which derivative work you personally prefer.

[@stuffandnonsense8528]

I wish I felt the same.

[@jamiecrisalli3643]

It's Power Metal the Game. It's about expanding out into magical worlds filled with everything from Chaos beasts to delusional ghouls to predatory grass. It is geared more toward narrative players where they have space to write their own stories, which is why there's so much "there be monsters here" space and there's no real timeline. It appeals to a different kind of player than WHFB which (IMO) like a more defined world with a distinct timeline. I never much liked WHFB, at least from the tabletop, it was too rigid and fussy, both from a rules and world view. AoS though, you can do just about anything. And that's why I love it.

[@AnvilAirsoftTV]

The feeling at the time in many areas of the studio (Studios at the time) was that major decisions around the rules had been made by 50+ year old senior managers without regard to what the wider world and business actually needed. They had their own narrative or history driven gaming groups and thought that everybody wanted to play the same way (hence no points values). The aspect of AoS that upset us the most was the appalling communication to customers from the start of End Times to the launch of AoS.

[@teessidetyrants1989]

Great video. Cheers

[@icyblankets4971]

Fantasy is and was my favourite war game. AoS was a very painful transitional process for lots of us who were fully submerged in the old world. The feeling at the time was like GW gave us a ball and then took it away to pop it and throw it back. I’ve tried AoS it a few times since and haven’t really enjoyed it. Fantasy remains the one.

[@photonfartsqueeze6694]

I find fantasy cumbersome and boring. AoS needed to happen.

[@NicholsonNeisler-fz3gi]

AoS is shit

[@photonfartsqueeze6694]

@@NicholsonNeisler-fz3gi AoS is probably the best game they make right now.

[@Basil_Ghothickovitch]

@@photonfartsqueeze6694 There is a problem that it is impossible to believe in the old world setting if you think critically for a minute. The thickness of the rose-colored glasses of nostalgia is incredible.

[@NisGaarde]

It would be interesting to know _when_ Warhammer Fantasy Battle sales started to decline. Was it during 8th edition? Or was it before? In my gaming circles 8th edition was not well received at all. Many of the aspects of the game just felt wrong, "dumbed down" for lack of a better word. The "step up" rule being one thing that rubbed many the wrong way. I'm very glad that we're now in a situation where Warhammer: The Old World is out (although support could be better...) co-existing with 40K and AoS. Here's hoping for many more decades of all three games. PS: Great video Jordan!

[@mogwaiman6048]

According to Rick Priestly 4th edition WHFB underperformed. So the IP had issues long before The End Times.

[@AM-uw3gp]

I’m hoping Old world does well despite the lack of support and stocking issues, seems like a solid game so far

[@morerobotwarscontent1476]

It was in 2013/14 when they decided to stop supporting it and start age of sigmar. Which makes sense. That was when 8th had properly burnt out due to slow releases and insane power creep.

[@morerobotwarscontent1476]

​@@Vasily_Kotickovitchno. The MMORPG industry had collapsed by that point. Absolute nonsense take. The IP has been very successful.

[@iantellam9970]

@@NisGaarde I imagine LOTR and 40K were probably more appealing and accessible for new players and it eventually just bled the fantasy user base as existing players drifted away for various reasons.

[@4thofEleven]

The lack of any balancing system or army-building structure was just absolutely idiotic, and makes me think management were completely out of touch with how people play and collect the games. Even as someone who paints and models a lot more than I actually play, having an army list and structure to work towards is a great way of adding some structure to my collection and gives goals to work towards.

[@highmarshalbalian680]

There is a story of the old CEO going to a GW store that only had one game table saw two people playing and a bunch building models and assumed only a minority of the consumers played the game too. He was also an idiot 😅

[@richtheunstable3359]

I kind of liked it. Many people who played rogue teader back in the day. Consider army lists to be the worst thing to happen to the game. Even people who play today largely ignore them. Although points are largley used

[@lawrencejackson6113]

As always, masterful content!! You deliver again and again with great topics, scoring really good interview guests and just tie it all together in a way that feels something like a permanent, very open and honest, convention panel on a topic, combined with a good interview, background, etc. Thank you for amazing work!!

[@ITCamefromthePage]

This was really valuable as a relative newcomer into the franchise. I started with just reading a few random AOS books and I've read a smattering of Old World books, enjoying both but not really understanding the full extent of the differences between them. This gave a good overall view of why its creation was controversial and how it's now a very different beast.

[@SkyDogDaddy]

3 of my 50 coworkers bought the 1st edition starter box. I had a look inside one, closed it back up, returned it to the owner, and from then on i knew GW was straight up smoking rocks.

[@photonfartsqueeze6694]

You missed out. It’s a fantastic game. More players than fantasy ever had.

[@shorelessskies]

Like I said, I’ve only recently gotten into age of Sigmar and I think that might be for the best. Coming in at the end of third edition that there was a wealth of law for me to sync my teeth into (in addition to the wonderful cruel boys). That The Mortal Realms started off very sparse and that it has been richly developed over the years is really cool.

[@LSOP-]

You should play the old world instead of that crap.

[@shorelessskies]

@@LSOP- 🤫

[@alun7006]

I had had nothing to so with anything GW from about 2013 onwards, so when it came back into view for me about a year ago I was completely bewildered. I had no clue of what AoS was supposed to be and didn't make much effort to work it out. So thank you for this video - I now have an idea what's going on!

[@commandershadow5301]

The game for me didn’t come into its own until the malign portents campaign that made it truly feel like a living world and gave all the new AOS stuff that feeling of belonging before that everything felt like they were just shotgunning it at the wall to see what stuck

[@TeWakaOAoraki]

Warhammer already died to me when 8th edition took chess and turned it into Yahtzee.

[@Reldane]

Hearing the names of all the khorne units gave me flashbacks to reading the launch novel. With the word blood appearing in almost every single paragraph from khornate perspective (from memory I think there were 2 exceptions) every miniature or unit having their full legally distinct name used every time. I had tried to enjoy Age of Sigmar on launch, but I cannot understate how terrible it was to try to play pick up games without points or a real rule system. I am glad to hear that people do now enjoy playing AoS, but it very much lost me in those first few months. I would also like to bring up the lack of communication over AoS as its biggest failure. Although briefly mentioned in the video, after End times Archeon the players of Warhammer were left with nothing but rumours for months, then AoS was only revealed only 2 weeks before its launch.

[@Nekorook]

Listening to this while building my skaventide box

[@colinmiddleton8127]

An excellent presentation, thank you.

[@CrusaderJJR]

I don't have any friendly words for the change .. . and I am not sorry . .

[@dekai7992]

It did save the Old World, though, in a way WFB itself never could have on its own.

[@keatonhughes7269]

Just painted my first ever Warhammer model, a Stormcast Eternal. I'm mostly an outsider to the hobby, but at least aesthetically I can get behind both Old World & AoS.

[@ironbomb6753]

Cool you found the hobby, I hope you enjoy it. It's an incredible activity. 👍

[@mogwaiman6048]

The primary thing is the miniatures anyway. I'm glad you enjoy painting.

[@LSOP-]

Ew lame sigmarines

[@johnnybigbones4955]

The first stormcast models look great painted up as animated stone statues.

[@rubenlopezcatalan8661]

Yes, yes, end of time video 🙏🏻🤗

[@davydatwood3158]

Fascinating! I know almost nothing about AoS and some of the design brief was very interesting to hear. The idea that they would make what was essentially a mini-agnostic game feels very odd, and the "lose the points" was surprisingly avant-garde. One of my favourite minis games ever is Stargrunt II, and that doesn't have points either. It's essentially VietNam/Falklands/Soviet Afghanistan IN SPAACE, and the idea is: you agree on a rough scale (Platoon/Company) of force, you agree on a *story* for the battle, and then you build a "realistic" combat unit's TO&E. Then, essentially, you do some dice rolling to see how far under "book" strength the actual unit is, and some random token draws to see if any of your units are unusually good or bad - and then you go try to achieve your objectives. Of course, *explaining* all of that takes up far more than four pages in the rule but my point is that you can have a really good game without points-costs, you just need to be willing to take some time to build good scenarios. But that, of course, is more work on the player's end and so I'm sure the lack of points is part of why Stargrunt II never got a lot of traction back in the late 90s when it was actively competing with 40K.

[@o0krazyboris0o]

Awesome stuff jordan, cant wait for the next instalment as usual :)

[@iantellam9970]

As a long time 40k guy, I've really starting to get into AoS recently. Shaky start but the lore is in a genuinely interesting place now. Feels less stale than their other settings. Kind of reminds me of being a kid in the 90s getting into 40k the first time. Genuinely great minis and good game design (Warcry at least, I'm a skirmish gamer mostly) definitely help.

[@rasplez9889]

I still think its insane that GW gave Creative Assembly rights to make three Warhammer Fantasy (i refuse to call it "old world") video games arguably catapulting the popularity and fanbase of fantasy, then completely discarding it and throwing it in the bin to make AOS with a ton of less original ideas copy-pasted from 40k like stormcast basically being Custodes. The total war games are VASTLY more popular than ruinstorm. But then they bring back "the old world" when they realise they shouldn't have neglected it, but the damage was already done and now its dead on arrival. I cant be the only one to see AOS with nothing but contempt all for stealing what made WH fantasy so great.

[@Basil_Ghothickovitch]

You have the facts wrong: Warhammer Age of Sigmar has been in development since 2008, in production since 2012, and went on sale in 2015. SEGA bought the rights to the fantasy in 2012 when "Old World" was already de facto before death, so the license cost them less than 40k could have been. The first Total War was released in 2016, and popularity came in 2019 with the second part, the third part was already much less warmly received. Аlso. You completely ignore the catastrophic failure of the MMORPG Warhammer Online Age of Reconing, on which EA and Games Workshop spent no less money than SEGA did on Total War. This showed that the "Old World" is not interesting to anyone and masses cannot distinguish it from Warcraft. Of course, SEGA changed public opinion by bribing tons of journalists, bloggers, KZbinrs, and Chinese TikTokers to glorify their product from every teapot. Of course, this included the "Old World is the greatest thing in the world" propaganda gimmick, since, for example, it was necessary to prove to the historical fans of Total War that children's fantasy was preferred instead of real History. And also spreading hatred towards the Age of Sigmar, since SEGA want people to buy their DLC for 25$, instead of plastic miniatures.

[@mogwaiman6048]

@@rasplez9889 AoS has more original ideas. WHFB is based on generic fantasy, so it's the most derivative setting GW has. Most TW players aren't buying miniatures, they'll mostly read some black library books and move on to other video games after the trilogy ends.

[@jimbutler1737]

@@Basil_GhothickovitchSEGA were brought into the tent early on and after a little hesitation were actually happy with the plans because TOW wasn’t being retconned, it was being setup as the mythical origins, in the same way as the Horus Heresy for 40k.

[@Malky24]

I completely get why they did it. Fantasy was a total mess and the entry level was very high for new players. That said the implementation of AoS couldn't have been worse. The "funny" rules, no points, many existing players having armies they'd spent hundred, even thousands on getting disingenuous rules that were written on the back of a fag packet because their armies weren't copyrightable enough. It was awful. Even to this day, though I'm glad that AoS' success may well have saved GW, it's still left me such distaste that I've never played it and don't really think I ever will.

[@vivalaliberty]

And yet we see WFB being shipped and sold under the ToW fan now.... I find that hilarious.

[@darthhall6187]

I just subscribed. I actually only just realised I wasn't subbed for some reason. I never played WHF ( more of a collector/painter) because frankly it just seemed so daunting. But when AoS released, the "just play with what models you have" idea pulled me in. The people I played with were all on the same page. It never felt unbalanced, as none of us were power "win at all costs" players, so we just found a natural "balance". But I can see why after 20 years of using points as a way of choosing what models to play, it would seem broken. I started to lose interest with the release of GHB 1, and then 2nd edition, as it became a more traditional points based system. I totally dropped out with 3rd edition. Its weird. I happily play all kinds of games with points. But I just felt AoS lost something special when it ditched it's "free for all, but don't be A-hole" premise. Spearhead has my attention now though. The lack points, and list building, reminds me of the glory days of AoS 1st Ed.

[@Rob-nq6br]

Agree with this, as someone coming from a historical game background, I’ve always found points a bit if a false crutch that people rely on for the sake of “balance”

[@iantellam9970]

@@darthhall6187 I mean you can always just ignore the points if you’re playing with like minded players.

[@Ulthuan38]

Cancelling WFB was my darkest day ever in wargaming! I have no problem with AoS though, I didn't like the realm setting, it was too broad and vague in my perception. No hate for AoS, but I kept my hopes that the game will come back again sometime! For me, the true End Times were the Storm of Chaos.

[@Mr_Waffle.]

I wasn't around at the time so never saw the first edition, I'll have to try and track down these apparently wacky rules one day... looking forward to another making of series!

[@Locknut61]

They can be found online.

[@vivalaliberty]

I consider the release of TOW to be an honest "okay we fucked up when we shut down WFB back then" statement from GW. No more and no less.

[@thebigapplegate5404]

According to the numbers on this vids. I think its time to do more aos the people are waiting

[@thealldayspecial]

Good video, shout out to anybody who won tournaments in those early year when you could just use Reaper Bolt Throwers for ages.

[@nithzen1]

Great work! Bullseye points!

[@jerensteinbear]

I've always been kind of tangentially attached to warhammer, more as a collector of miniatures and enjoyer of lore than anything else, so all the videos you make about the behind the scenes things are fun and interesting and I always learn a lot that I missed as someone who doesn't really play the game(s).

[@Rob-nq6br]

Glad you are covering AoS. I am a massive fan of it as a game and the lore. It is so much more Moorcock with it’s impossible heroes, gods meddling in the lives of mortals and a general post-apocalyptic feel ala Hawkmoon

[@Gigasius]

*Slams desk* Thank you!

[@malachywolohan]

Same here. I couldn't get into WFB, but loved the gritty nature of WF Roleplay. AoS is definitely the Herohammer allowed to run wild.

[@vzgg1973]

Thanks Jordon. Very informative & a great little resource for getting some perspective out of what replaced WFB. I’ll never like many forgive GW for what they did. I’m enjoying buying old AoS kit to play ToW. “nice narrative conclusion” A.Merret Probably one of the attitudes from GW of the time that defied logic & empathy for WFB fans. It was disgusting to create such a nihilist destruction of a seminal 30 yr old IP for short term profit.

[@terraneaux]

It's wild, though, because there are more games of Old World happening at the hobby shops in my city than AoS, and I live in a decent sized metro area.

[@mogwaiman6048]

Anecdotal experience, where I live TOW is a ghost town and I also live in a major city.

[@morerobotwarscontent1476]

@@mogwaiman6048 since I see your username pop up all over the internet whining about old world all the time I strongly doubt you have been in a gaming club for a long long time.

[@mogwaiman6048]

@@morerobotwarscontent1476 Firstly, I don't whine about TOW. I might even rebase some of my orcs and goblins to get some games in. I'm in a large gaming group where I live, but TOW scene isn't popular. My experience is of course anecdotal.

[@mogwaiman6048]

@@morerobotwarscontent1476 I don't whine about TOW. I never hated WHFB, I may even rebase some orcs and goblins for TOW. I am also in a large gaming group where I live. Unfortunately though, TOW scene isn't popular where I live, it's mostly 40k and AoS.

[@terraneaux]

@@mogwaiman6048 Where's that? TOW is selling like hotcakes though, they mentioned as much on the WarCom website.

[@user-ue7jw2bu4u]

4 editions in 9 years? Either GW truly CAN NOT write up a legitimate set of game rules OR the business model they have chosen to use is codex creep in order cash grab.

[@mogwaiman6048]

@@user-ue7jw2bu4u the main studio is on a 3 year edition cycle.

[@Dazza0187]

Seeing as they launched TOW and it's operating simultaneously with AOS, why couldn't they have just kept WHFB as is and launched AOS and kept running the two.

[@Maulyr]

Nice work as usual! Is there any chance that you can look at the origin of Heroquest & Advanced Heroquest and how they relate to the old Warhammer Quest, plx? You seem to have the contacts :)

[@user-qi1jc1yn3o]

I originally began playing with GW games in the last century (my goodness I must be old 😢) but despite my desire for an oldy worldy environment of gaming I had only friends that played the 40k setting so I became a boring Space Marines player 😴 well until I found Blood Bowl that was, however after enjoying Gorkamorka for a while I now have a chance of getting into the old style WFB game with Old World so it’s time for my Orc, Goblin and Trolls to get some paint on them before they take to the field of battle and I am so excited 🧌

[@colinmack8655]

I was not a fan of the old world but kings of war now is my jam.

[@user-qi1jc1yn3o]

@@colinmack8655 what is that?

[@johnnybigbones4955]

@@user-qi1jc1yn3o It's a rank and flank game that is relatively miniature agnostic but has many factions which fit with GW factions (the creators are ex GW staff). It's a bit more abstract than WFB and the regiments are what have stat blocks rather than the individual models but it is pretty fast playing and easy to learn but with a lot of depth. It's published by Mantic Games, they also make miniatures to go along with it but they are fine with people using whatever miniatures they like so many people use GW minis to play. I think it's most popular in the UK.

[@greghaycock4883]

The aim of AoS from the start it seem was so you can take any (usually very large) bits of plastic you can think to sell and have a thing to do with them, the narrative is a pretty thin and generally superfluous layer. Warhammer too started as a game to use in and thus buy minis for, but it very much grew to be a specific thing with a cultural impact. AoS will lack this while it stays the "Ready Player One" of general fantasy minis, to keep the broad appeal for as many people to have whatever they want it can't have too deep a lore. In adding deep lore you will start to pen yourself in again with what sort of thing you can fit into the setting, the cycle will repeat with relaunches getting closer to together as ideas repeat/rhyme until you end with this years version of the same story as edited/produced by this eras crop of authors, a single repeating story with a 1000 authors, Shakespeare but 90s California this time. Modern comics have had this with their constant attempts to reboot/update. Fortunately though Warhammer apparently couldn't stand up as a plastic game, the business side hasn't tried to fully kill off the artistry of the old setting to push their new lite product as seen in the replacement of Gothic 40k with Halo 40K rife with baby carriers. We still get video games, hopefully books (and plastic depending on Old World sales) to mine out the as yet untapped rich veins of the story from the Warhammer IP allowing AoS to be for the more profitable, generalist or meta focused board gaming types. tl;dr AoS is actually a good thing for Warhammer lore because it frees it from having to support a profitable plastic game.

[@Constanz92]

I like your channel buddy :) I only paint minis not play but your vids are neat and fun :) Subbed

[@josephjustice4553]

I honestly wonder what the longevity of AoS is in the next year or so as the Old World gets fleshed out.

[@piffling2238]

Chance are still pretty good. You assume all the new players AoS has accumulated in the past 6+ years will jump to ToW. However, these new wargamers don't have the nostalgia for 20 year old models. They like new stuff. As long as ToW continues its slow release with old sculpts it'll be nothing more than a specialist game for GW.

[@LaBibliotecaEterna]

So It was actually a mess , thanks for the vid, I Will be waiting for the next parts

[@joehill6916]

Timely - I’ve been slowly building up a Gloomspite Gitz army in time for the launch of 4th edition!

[@richardbradley2335]

Only to be nerfed on the first page !!!

[@LSOP-]

You should rebase them and use them in tow. Night goblins are s tier!

[@quahodron2756]

Learned a lot, thank you.

[@blkjet117]

I was away from GW games for nearly three decades and your video explained so much I like the concept and execution of Spearhead. Not sure I want to do any 2,000 point AOS armies. But those new Seraphon miniatures sure make me want to build an all dinosaur army. Carnosaurs, Aggradons, Raptadons, and Stegadons. I'm doomed.

[@MetzoPaino]

Wow that wrinkletooth spreadsheet is amazing

[@jordansorcery]

Right?!

[@horusheresy6949]

What went wrong? Releasing AoS in the first place

[@Karras353]

I never played first edition AoS but it seemed to me at the time that the 4 page rule concept was a bit of a cheat, as they just shifted a lot of the complexity onto the war scrolls. It’s possible that the net effect was simpler than Fantasy or even 40K of the time. But it was not as simple as they wanted us to believe, especially when there could be little consistency as to how similar things would work from u it to unit. I appreciate the mentality of letting you use anything that you own. But I feel that force organisation rules are more of a limiting factor to this than points. For casual play at least, points don’t have to be 100% balanced but they do make sure that you are roughly on the same page with your opponent and set a limit to the size of the game.

[@madknightpash6125]

Aos first edition was such a mess to the point where I’m shocked it survived. It basically was like a shell of a game that asked you to self balance your games and was extremely bare bones. I was a fantasy player and it pushed me away from Gw for years

[@anglecynn927]

Oh man, I was optimistic about this at the time (just copium really) but when those rules dropped I was absolutely gutted because they were so appalling

[@tommyakesson8858]

I was super sceptical back then. And as an avid lover of the Old World setting I was very displeased by them not just moth-balling the old setting. Activley destroying it. Which MIGHT have worked if it was for artistic reasons. But since this was a financial reason.... I still don't care about the setting. I was in a GW store and asked about it and they just IMMEDIETLY asked me to buy a book. Instead of actually telling me. And while I got into FB from SotHR and Dark Omen. No such gateway has realy existed for AoS. I WANT to like it. But I just have no reason to interact with it beyond looking at pretty minis.

[@oldtoby4062]

Do you have a video on the end times and why it came about?

[@mogwaiman6048]

It came about because for years WHFB was struggling and the company had to cut the cord.

[@little_isalina]

The release of the first Generals Handbook was really where AoS became complete game in the eyes of a lot of players (myself included)

[@darrenrichardson6146]

The Paths to Glory supplement also helped pave the way IMHO, though Skirmish seems to be the forgotten unwanted adopted child of the AoS 1st ed family....

[@onarollgames]

Great video! I know you're a big Old World fan, so it's nice to see an unbiased assessment of AoS. I'm a long-time Warhammer Fantasy fan (fiction, wargame, and RPG), and I absolutely love AoS. WFB8 burned me out, and I gave it up just before the End Times, so I was ready for AoS when it came out, and fell in love with it from day one. As heretical as it may sound, I think I like the game and setting of AoS more than the Old World...

[@x.davidwilliams83]

Huzzah,, I'm into the Gloomspite Gitz, especially the Spiderfang faction And I Wish there were "Forrest Goblins" that I could use instead of the iconic Night Goblins. Still waiting for said Forrest Goblins!