Making Sense of YoRHa: Dark Apocalypse - Final Fantasy XIV's NieR Raids

/ zuldim
YoRHa: Dark Apocalypse is a series of raids in Final Fantasy XIV, crossing over with the NieR franchise. These raids have a reputation for being incredibly confusing, and requiring an in-depth understanding of lore going back in a 20-year franchise. Is this raid series as hard to follow as its reputation suggest, and more to the point, is it good? Let's find out.
Table of contents:
Intro - 0:00:00
Part One: A (Very) Brief History of Drakengard - 0:08:02
Part Two: What Happens in YoRHa: Dark Apocalypse? - 0:18:52
Part Three: Final Fantasy XIV's Most Divisive Raid - 1:13:51
Conclusion - 1:58:21
References:
Tower at Paradigm's Breach (With details about epilepsy warning):
ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/wi...
Dying Red Dragon
/ 51_spoiler_regarding_t...
na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...
Portable Archive notes:
ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/wi...
Seeds of Destruction:
drakengard.fandom.com/wiki/Se...
F66x:
nier.fandom.com/wiki/F66x
Drakengard 2 sources:
• Drakengard 2 Analysis ...
drakengard.fandom.com/wiki/Nowe
NieR Re[in]carnation crossover:
• [NieR Re[in]carnation]...
Thank you to @Pollymacho, check out his channel:
/ @pollymacho

[@TheToastwolf]

"hiding the true ending of a major character at the end of a several-hundred hours MMO experience" feels like the most on brand Yoko Taro fuckery the crossover event could ever hope for

[@AliceT3a]

just to not the main character of the first drakengard isn't in an incestuous relationship with his sister. The whole reason she 'unalives' herself is because the big bad reveals her secret feelings for him and he is visually disgusted by them. The writer of the games specifically did it because he hated the 'little sister loves big brother' trope.

[@garrettsweet9826]

I hate that I bumped the likes from 69 to 70, but based.

[@hoorenglish5732]

I really do like that the dwarf twins are just the First’s version of Devola and Popola, who are always supposed to suffer due to their actions in Nier 1. Which is why agree with your interpretation of their ending being a more tragic one.

[@casual2694]

Honestly I feel kind of dumb for not seeing that they were meant to be like devola and popola.

[@MegaKaims]

If my memory serves right, I think Nier raid being canon was a off-hand comment made by Yoko Taro to YoshiP made while he and YoshiP were doing Puppets Bunker together during 14hour stream. Its all in japanese but it was a really fun stream section, Yoko Taro also mentioned that he wanted to do the Nier raids a lot more difficult where most attacks one shot you, but YoshiP had to politely decline that :D

[@highroller5335]

People also keep saying that he at one point said "all 2b appearances in outside media are canon" maybe even jokingly but no one then provides a link to a tweet or other some such interview soo what kinda psyop are people running.

[@MakeSureYouCleanUp]

​@highroller5335 If he had a hand in the outside media I'd believe it because there's so much material outside the draken/nier games that all connects together and even referenced in the mobile game ReIncarnation which is the next canon installment of the franchise.

[@highroller5335]

@MakeSureYouCleanUp thank you for proving my point there's a lot of "i believe" and "i think he said that" "remember when he said that" no one can point out when.

[@MakeSureYouCleanUp]

@@highroller5335 I didn't claim to know when and where, I just said I'd believe it because the most recent canon game proved a lot of outside media to be canon because it wasn't just Word of God, but *actually* in the game. 😂

[@JarethS]

As someone who did actually play the Drakengard series, I still somehow never made the connection that Her Inflorescence was directly referencing Zero herself. The fight definitely made me think of the absolutely maddening music segment at the end of three with it's callbacks to the rings and the scenery, but I never actually made the connection until you pointed it out. Such a fantastic little detail. I will also second that not having Accord make a cameo was such a shame. Even something as simple as having her replace 2b in the cutscene where's she's watching the Orb Communion in progress would have been enough. All twelve of us who actually played Drakengard 3 could have at least appreciated it. :)

[@ZuldimYT]

Oh wow I hadn't thought of it but yeah replacing 2B with her in that cutscene that never pays off would have been PERFECT There is (I think) an oblique reference to her shop (though not by name) in one of the lore notes, which I didn't mention, but that almost makes it worse somehow.

[@HoneyDoll894]

yeah honestly no accord was a shame.. also i think for me what i loved about her inflorescence was that every time i played through it i found more references and it always made me giggle with excitement

[@God_is_a_High_School_Girl]

As a FFXIV player who's never even touched Automata, let alone the rest of the Drachengard franchise, I actually really appreciated this raid series because I was in the same boat as the Warrior of Light. Both of us had zero fucking clue who any of these people were or why they were fighting, just that two android chicks were trying to drag the star I loved into their war. And I was not about to stand for that.

[@trabunt7111]

It's the multiverse equivalent of a couple kids playing a game together that winds up moving into the neighbor's lawn, who then scares them off with a shotgun

[@kaidorade1317]

When the world needed him most, he returned

[@deliaseymour5578]

I found that the unique thwarting of the Watchers and the assurance that the Song and the Seed do not condemn the First and thus the Source is more akin to the fact that in Final Fantasy XIV, the very fantasy, the very strength of this defiance to the cruel “endings”, is why we fight and change things. But with Yoko Taro’s gleeful madness, much as we want to ensure all is well. It won’t be. You saved the First from the Watchers, but the actions made is devastating enough that everything is ruined and defiled. And I love it.

[@Madison-ur2qn]

I like the idea of Anogg being a non-evil replica. If this really is a cross-over between Nier and FFXIV, one big thing that happens in 14 is things being ensouled. Gaining better understanding and knowledge and wisdom and humanity through their struggles and trials- through understanding and kindness. Anogg being able to resist the Seed because she gained a soul from being in the 14 world feels right to me. Make Konogg more culpable and I think the mix would work well- could play a bit with nature vs nurture, choice vs destiny, resisting fate, loss and grief… I feel like if they went that route it could’ve coalesced! If a crossover is gonna happen, I want the story to feel like both games/narratives have a say in the outcome. Why not play with the twins in that way- each one gets one game’s version of an ending. Konogg’s actions lead him down a path of self destruction, while Anogg is able to rise above her own ‘nature’ to make choices based on what she believes is right, even if that does lead to her death… it also leads to salvation for those she loves.

[@Prizzlesticks]

Yoko Taro has a history of making the canon endings of his games the joke ending, the ending told in secondary material, or both. Like, we literally got NieR Automata from a drama CD which mentions Emil mass cloning himself to fight off an alien invasion on July 4th, 5012. This, after NieR began as a spinoff from the funny ha-ha Drakengard joke ending where a giant naked lady gets transported to modern day Tokyo, which you defeat on your flying dragon in a rhythm and beat mini game from hell. Yoko Taro is a mad genius, and I'm here for it. Anyway. I would not be shocked if the FFXIV raids, which I've no doubt is an extension of ending D if 9S agrees to join the Ark, ends up being the canon route to some future installment. He's mad enough to do it, and frankly.... I'd respect it. It'd be no less bizarre than any other canon crack endings, and those raids are hella fun.

[@thew00dsman79]

Because I’m a NieR nerd, in Grimoire NieR, on Jack it says this: Jack, The Knave of Hearts - “An amalgam of numerous Gestalts, Jack has lost any sense of self or individuality, and is now driven primarily by murderous impulses. The one thing it does remember is the mission given to it by the Shadowlord: “Bring Yonah to me.” Due to its unquenchable vitality-once slain it simply rises again and again- it was able to advance to the library where Yonah was hiding. It’s name comes from one of the Queen of Hearts’s card soldiers in Alice in Wonderland” That’s verbatim what the book says on it, if you were wondering, only about halfway through the video now, but wanted to throw that in

[@viradiance8594]

Peak listening while grinding Viper in Zadnor. Bless

[@ZuldimYT]

Happy Dawntrail day :D

[@deohere7647]

Protip folks, if you wanna experience the entire Drakengaurd saga there is a Lets play you can read on the Internet LP Archive by the Dark ID that I would argue is better than playing most of the games. Give it a look, speaking as someone who has played ALL of the serires.

[@TheMexRAGE]

I think the "the nier raid took a slot" is very misplaced, CBU3 team is very prone to make content by recycling assets from past games, one of the reasons ShB got so much content, was because they were able to us so many assets from NieR Gesthal, NieR Automata, Final Fantasy XII and Final Fantasy Type 0.

[@RockR277]

I think the sentiment comes from how disconnected NeIr feels to FFXIV in this story. Ivalice and Bozja use a lot from Tactics and XII, but they feel like a congruous part of the world because their storylines were told with connective tissue. Add to that that all of the previous raids added to the lore of the world. Dark Apocalypse feels almost completely untethered to anything else in the game lore wise. That's why I think it gets that criticism, or at least I remember people talking about that at the time.

[@How_Do_I_Set_a_Username]

While I don't really know any Nier lore, this was lovely background noise for the agony of frontlines.

[@ZuldimYT]

I feel that, I got my rank 25 armor set just a few hours before the servers went down and now I've already got to start going for the Oppressor mount

[@lukoscreyden]

To expand on my previous comment, a correction; what I mean is the references, story and lore did nothing for me in the alliance raid. The raid itself, (bosses, loot, environment, music, mechanics) are all amazing in my opinion.

[@venabre]

The relevance of the blindfold coming off of 9S at the end of Copied Factory is not to represent him taking damage, but rather to show how he doesn't have red eyes and thus we should question our allegiance with 2P

[@Gloomdrake]

Yet another detail that requires prior knowledge to understand :(

[@venabre]

@@Gloomdrake I am personally of the opinion that having prior knowledge is irrelevant. I can guarantee you you will have no idea what is going on in the Ivalice raids nor the significance of any of it if you don't have any prior knowledge of Tactics and XII. Yet people aren't going around voicing their complaints about that.

[@Gloomdrake]

@@venabre its not a complaint, it's a lament that I missed important context. Docking points against myself, not the story

[@SkySumisu]

A bit more context for the whole discussion of "canon", "not canon" and "all endings are canon": Japanese media tends to prefer the concept of "gaiden" to that of "canon". Gaiden (literally "side-story) is format (Very popular with multi-media franchises) where a story might have branching, concurrent, alternative or even mutually contradictory stories involving the same characters of concepts, and they're all "the right story" (While here in the west we tend to classify non-canon stuff as "wrong" or "worthless"). Here in the west we got used to using the concept of "multiverse" in order to fit gaiden stories in canon terms: Which is "canon", Tobey McGuire's Spiderman, Andrew Garfield's Spiderman or Tom Holland's Spiderman? We know that this question doesn't make sense, they're ALL canon, even if their storied are different and contradict one another.

[@oscarhirvonen6075]

"along with 23 of the players closest friends" lmao I don't even have 3 friends for a light party

[@HasegawaRayven]

Thats right up there with one of my favorite dialogues from Stormblood, where they lampshade that "Gee. Sure is convenient that 7 of your Echo-blessed friends were both in The Ruby Sea and ready to fight a primal when Susanoo happened to manifest out of nowhere"

[@sleepysera]

​@@HasegawaRayvenWhile I appreciate that they solved that "problem" once and for all with the Azem magic, I now live in eternal fear of one of the people I'm randomly summoning into battle showing up in a less battle-ready form, like, let's say, in the middle of taking a bath or during a radio play marathon in their pyjamas with a cup of hot cocoa 😂

[@TorManiak]

@@sleepysera Iirc it technically literally works like the Duty finder. Azem's magic to call upon their friends has a conditional for it to work being the acceptance of being called or not(and tbh why wouldn't it some people they want to teleport would just be too busy to answer the call lol), so _technically_ , the "accept" and "cancel" prompts from the Duty Finder are very literal representations of that, lol. Means that whoever you're calling upon, they will be ready.

[@satyasyasatyasya5746]

I kinda think maybe Konogg and Anogg are both replicas/both from the seed or whatever. Since they have the same redish color hair as many twins/siblings in Drak/Nier games who can't do without eachother and have extra purposes and such. Its another theme/visual from Taro games and the ending of the story kinda fits with the whole 'it all deletes itself from the world of XIV' where he leaves with her. Like I don't think she dies ina cave-in anymore than 2B or 9S die in Nier Automata, they just new versions or something? Also, yes white/bleach is a sign of bad things but also, what with other themes of philosphy, incompleteness, balance and such, I think the balck and white clothes they wear represents how they're 2 halves or the same things, or balance eachother out or whatever, not 'just' that the white clothes means 'bad.' Because even with Nier Automata, where there is the dark outfits, they have white hair. And the robot bosses in the tower being based on chinese philosophers merging its a pretty obvious hint and yingyang stuff... idk lol

[@emilyl.1745]

Clemps mentioned 👾

[@satyasyasatyasya5746]

1:03:20 Its something to do with the Japanese names for Chinese philosophers. I forget the nuances but something something: So-Shi (Zhuang Zhou/Zhuangzi) Ro-Shi (Laozhi/Lao Zi/Tzu) Ko-Shi (Kǒngzǐ/Confucius)

[@stampede274]

I think that the resonance of the First is a very important part of what's going on in this story. The First is very strongly aspected towards Light Aether. There are startling similarities between White Chlorination Syndrome and the effects of excessive Light on people. The Ascians probably brought it to the First as a backup plan for destroying the First and creating a Calamity of Light on the Source, just like how they tried to create a Light-aspected disaster with Ultima, Thorden, and eventually the Black Rose on the Source.

[@jmrwacko]

Tower at paradigm’s breach isn’t mechanically any harder than the other alliance raids. It’s only harder because it’s the last alliance raid of the series, so the level sync makes it so that the players aren’t overgeared for it

[@RockR277]

I don't think it's quite that simple. I think that's a part of it, but it's also just tuned higher than a lot of other raids. We go back to WoD or Dun Scaithe and more or less obliterate those fights. On rare occassions, I've even seen Ultma's maze running section get skipped, and if not she'll be at .01% after. Those are all final tiers. Tower bosses do have a good chunk of health and a fair amount of insta-gib mechanics.

[@reccca]

Shame that this isn't more lore relevant to the series. It is true that "everything is cannon" but the lore found in other media (plays, books, manga, etc) very much expand existing lore in the games, or at least provide context or backstory. This being an unrelated timeline where things kinda just happen and then they leave leaves it feeling very separate. The DrakenNier wiki doesn't even mention Her Inflorescence which is a shame because, wow, I absolutely love that design and the potential ramifications it could have in the series. All that said, what I REALLY want to know: how long did it take you to beat the true final bosses of Drakengard 1 and 3, lmao

[@ZuldimYT]

Drakengard 1 final boss took me around 2 hours IIRC, but Drakengard 3's, despite I think being objectively harder, only took me around 30 minutes (I double checked my recording for that. That said, I had been warned to just use that one timing video guitar hero guide thing, and only did one attempt "normally" before using, and my wife helped me get the timing on the video right so I could hit play/be immediately playing exactly as she hit play on the video. It was an experience. I also noticed that Her Inflorescence doesn't even have a DrakenNier wiki article, which blew my mind considering the lore implications of it. It's such a wonderful boss design/ending in general visually!

[@reccca]

@@ZuldimYT Ah yeah that's the smart way to go about it. I've been bashing me head against the Drak3 boss off and on for a good while now. I'd be curious about a drakengard/nier video if only to see another perspective. I love Nier and Automata for how genuinely wonderful they are, and I love Drakengard 3 for how batshit insane it is (I only watched Drak1 and the gameplay looks fucking miserable, but I also love the WILD cutscenes and the audacity of everything about it). Though I would wait on doing a video until seeing where the anime goes. First season already made some interesting changes, and who knows what they'll do in this second one.

[@ZuldimYT]

@@reccca I was actually expecting D1 to be much more miserable than it is from what I'd seen of it. It's painfully basic, but it isn't like, aggressively bad imo. Honestly Drakengard 3 was the one that came closest to breaking me because of the performance issues.

[@reccca]

@@ZuldimYT Yeah that's why I'm glad I emulated it. While I enjoyed the clunky combat (not so much some of the side missions...), if I was playing with PS3 performance I would be far less forgiving

[@ZuldimYT]

@@reccca I've never messed with PS3 emulation, I hear it's gotten to be in a pretty good state though, it's good to know there's at least a version of Drakengard 3 that performs well lmao

[@mrbubbles6468]

‘Do you know what I had to get that Trophy’ Yes. You poor bastard. Lmao.

[@OmegaEnvych]

Not gonna lie, for me, YoRHa: Dark Apocalypse (or rather video with fight against 9S with new version of Weight of the World playing at the background) was one of many reasons why I decided to give game a go in early 2021... funny that by "A smile better suits a Hero" line I was totally hooked by the game and been an active player ever since. I would say that only negative about the raid is that it takes like 45 minutes to clear single run of the Tower at Paradigm's Breach, which is way too long, especially considering that Sycrus Tower takes less than 20 minutes, as a counter point and even Orbonne Monastery - by far one of the longer raids aside of Nier ones, takes around what - 30 minutes for clear or so? Also I still think that YoRHa storywise is better than Return to Ivalice - that story is, IMO, a disservice to both Tactics and XII fans and doesn't really work for either

[@ZuldimYT]

I really need to work out my own thoughts on RtI, I've never beaten 12 and I've never played Tactics so a lot of the nostalgia went over my head and it didn't resonate with me at all.

[@SetrinSkyheart]

​@ZuldimYT As someone who's played Tactics a lot, yeah not knowing FFT will dull the final fight of the first raid and pretty much the entirety of the final raid. It really hinges on the player knowing who the bosses already are. I remember absolutely loving all those fights but then having to explain to my friends who didn't play Tactics what the hell I was on about. I definitely recommend playing Tactics at some point and then playing through the RtI story again. There's a lot of much needed context.

[@lukoscreyden]

The Ivalice raid series is definitely not a disservice if you know the original game. It works and I thoroughly enjoyed it. As for the Nier raid, that did nothing for me and the story was quite uninteresting. I liked the music and stuff, but the bosses didn't resonate. Basically, it has the same issues the Ivalice raids have; it only really works if you are a fan of the original IP. You might enjoy the music and fights, but the bosses, characters and story are not gonna do much for you in most cases.

[@Pollymacho]

Way to go with this one Zuldim! As someone who's only played Neir Gestalt/Replicant and Automata, this was really cool to see a bunch of details that went over my head going back to the Drakenguard series. I played through the questline recently and with the weekly quests, my current guess for why it functions like that is to show the player the progression of time from the events and their outcomes. Both of highlight how the Dwarf village is slowly building itself back up, contrasted with Konoggs degrading madness at his quest bearing no fruit. I also think you made some fair crisisms with the raid series story as well. Thank you for the chance to be apart of the project!

[@ZuldimYT]

Thank you again for your contribution, man!

[@Jehudy7]

Thank you for this video. Your videos always give me a new level of appreciation for anything you cover.

[@ArtificialVik]

I mean, I get being confused by the story, but the actual fights themselves were really fun & challenging. I didn’t even realize that there was any hate towards this series!

[@Vikumax]

I always theorized the ending was always meant to be the same and the overall vote was just to determine which of the twins would become part of the twist. Since the twins were basically the game's version of Poppola and Devola, killing one of them and making the other sufger has basically become a tradition in the NieR franchise.

[@qestir]

Just chiming in to show my support for the format and style of this video, and the idea of a series retrospective. (Also, as somebody who has never played and never intends to play the Hitman games, those videos scratch an itch I didn't know I had.) Thanks for the video, and happy Dawntrailing!

[@ehwick8175]

This is my favorite raid series. At first just because of the fights/mechanics themselves, music and aesthetic. Then its my favorite because it sent me on the drakennier rabbit hole and exposed me to one of the craziest world building in gaming.

[@blackbird4852]

I am late but here is the comment for the algorithm. Thank you for another good one! And I said it before but I will say it again: As someone who never played FF14, Hitman, or any of the Nier/Drakenheim games, thank you for consistently making your videos easy to follow and very interesting to watch even for the uninitiated xD Looking forward to the next one!

[@Paraphrase1234]

As an FFXIV player who had never touched Nier - and barely heard of it - prior its raid series, yeah, I will second that it's good. Mechanically and visually it was gripping. I enjoyed it so much. The weirdness (when compared to other content) and the challenge were a *draw*, not a repellent to me. And I tried playing Automata later as a result. I sucked at it, and I got frustrated somewhere in the second playthrough, but I tried! I would call the Nier raid series a success. Now go do it with a full BLU group!

[@squeethemog213]

This was an absolutely fascinating watch. Now i really want to see a Drakenguard retrospective at some point but only if you're up for it. Thank you so much for making this vid and for all your efforts. You're awesome 🙏😃

[@GimmeTOKYO]

that "I don't make the news, I just report on it" about DoD make me nearly spit my drink out.

[@Bluelyre]

I like the raid series, if anything my opinion mirrors yours. This might be speculation but dark apocalypse was being developed actively during covid. I have no doubt the story was limited in scope when Japan went into lockdown.

[@Bluelyre]

Also the seed probably isn't an actual seed sent to the first. The machine network is so involved with it that they probably made it, since they are ultimately corrupted by the red eyes. It's probably not a 1:1 replica since a seeds are specific to the drakengard setting and never are shown in Nier. Then again this is probably just me existing plot contrivances.

[@ZuldimYT]

I thought about mentioning that in the video, yeah I think it'sINCREDIBLY likely that covid had an impact on how the quest played out.

[@mowossh]

such a well made video!!! amazing!!! also 36:30 dammit zodiark it could've been a home run 69% across the board you were SO close

[@reccca]

Incredible timing, I was digging back into the DrakenNier lore hole and this was always a blindspot for me since I can't get into MMOs. I'm so happy that my Patreon money went to you playing the Drakengard games lmfao

[@zeroanonymity9736]

This is a fantastic video and a great breakdown of the Raid and its connections with the DrakeNieR series, though I want to put forward another way of interpreting the events in the Raid. Yoko Taro rarely answers questions directly about the backend of the series, what things are and what's happening in areas not focused on by the characters involved with the plot. Most of the major bits of worldbuilding we have for Drakengard's Midgard especially is based on inference stemming from details within 1, 3, the manga, and the novelizations. This applies here as well. The direct story involves Seeds of Destruction, the Machine Hivemind, and interdimensional travel but it's about the ways people can be isolated from their communities. How people handle tragedies and the ways in which those without a support network become victimized in the wake of them. So it doesn't answer the questions it poses concerning the nature of those concepts directly, however it DOES make it possible to infer some potential details by using things we already know! The Gods did indeed send out the Seeds of Destruction in Drakengard, however both Angelus's remark of "Is this the land of the Gods?" in Ending E as well as the "Cathedral City" in Drakengard 3 hints that the "Gods" are just... us. Mankind. Cathedral City is just a ruined Tokyo that's somehow been transported to Midgard, and from side material we know that with it came monsters and other "Magic" concepts for the setting. The Drakengard and NieR universes are essentially stuck in an endless mutual feedback loop of magic being sent to NieR's through the conflict with the Queen Beast and then it gets sent right back to Drakengard's world in the distant past through the transportation of Cathedral City at some point in NieR's timeline. So if the Seeds are indeed made by the "Gods" then it was always possible that they were always made by Man. I believe the Raid gives a similar answer that all but confirms it. In NieR Automata, the aliens are described as being akin to sentient plants and their Machine proxies thus have cores that are similar in nature to them. They're like plant cells, a hard outer wall that protects the cube within. Ending C for Automata has the possibility of the Tower shooting an arc into space containing the sum total of knowledge of both the Machine Lifeforms and the human database on the moon, launched in an attempt at finding another world. You could say they were attempting to send out a "Seed" to accomplish this. I believe that the "Gods" of the DrakeNieR universe are the Machine Lifeforms that have been so disconnected from time and from constant evolution that they barely resemble what they once were. Perhaps in some timeline we aren't shown from Automata the machines launched their Arc into space while both 2B and 9S were alive and able to interfere through uploading their own personalities into it. It seeded a world successfully or else it found ways of replicating itself while in space, and over the course of countless millennia they were able to develop means of sending arcs to other dimensions and times. Each of the various manifestations the "Watchers" have taken throughout the series are different methods that this evolved Machine Consciousness has attempted to propagate within the worlds and times they arrive in. I truly think that this Raid hints at that, that each of the manifestations of the "Gods" are methods of this Consciousness attempting to propagate itself and evolve. One of the earliest attempts we witness being a parasitic Flower that would blossom and end the world once fully grown, sealed in a pocket dimension by Mikail along with its host body. Perhaps being linked with Zero in that way affected how it manifested from then on, eroding each others' consciousnesses and melding into something new over time. Maybe the Seeds were the only things it could send out of the pocket dimension, spreading them to as many universes as possible in an attempt to further grow while the main body of the Consciousness remained trapped in that sealed world. The Raid shows potentially an early version of this, one where it replicates things nearly 1 to 1 with how they were in Automata. As time went on it's possible those attempts became more and more abstracted and strange, like Ending B of Drakengard. Zero clearly seemed to deteriorate while trapped if The Queen Beast really is her, maybe the Consciousness also decayed in a similar way over time? Sorry for the long, rambling comment with assumptions rather than facts. Part of why I love this series is how interpretable everything is. It seems to have a core logic to everything happening in the background, but because it's so secondary to the very Human drama it invites the viewer to explore. The exploration gives context to the tragedy, making what's otherwise very simple stories punch far above their weight class at times. These raids were what spurred me into finally subbing to FFXIV in the first place so they hold a big place in my heart haha

[@bingo784]

Do a DrakenNier retrospective. Yes, please.

[@tazepsmg]

this is an amazing breakdown and analysis. Specially the points you made about what the story "could have been". like with Accord. Thanks so much for making this video! you're a fucking legend!

[@kylegosa4209]

Hey loved the video, your work always makes me think. This one was funny to me, because by the time we hit your conclusion of why it doesn't live up to the story telling we should expect from a good crossover, you had literally just convinced me as to why it was awesome actually, lol. Tldw, I kinda like that that the world of Drakengaurd and Neir was so full of spite that just a little bit of it touched this other multiverse and created some needless tragedy. I think those gods just hate twins with red hair.

[@coloxrme]

I honestly thought that the story was fine, and I cried at a certain part. The logs that you collect kinda tell you what you need to know, and this is coming from someone who still hasn't played any Nier or Drakengard games, which actually sparked my interest in these titles, so I then watched 6 hour long videos about how it all ties together.

[@Silvershadowfire]

I stayed up far too late listening to this and I am glad that I did. I never liked the Nier raids, and it was 50% because I had no idea what the heck was going on or why the Warrior of Light/Darkness should care (I mean yes, after the village is destroyed, they would have a good reason to.) It might have been better to actually start with that, then unveil the story of the twins as we're busy cleaning out the machine life forms or whatever. I also think you hit the nail exactly on the head when it comes to narrative dissonance. When you boil everything down, the protagonist of FF14 *fixes* things to make, if not a perfect outcome, then at least a better one. My theory is that their actual superpower is to inspire hope in those around them. It sounds like the Drakengard (I haven't played any of it except the first part of Automata) series is more like Greek tragedy - hope just makes it hurt more in the end. Finally, yes. That hallway is my vision of hell where the devil will make me avoid lasers and balls for my sins.

[@neogirl159]

Another wonderful video

[@HoneyDoll894]

when i first played dark apocalypse, i had only played Nier:automata and watched a playthrough of dod3, as well as read a large part of the supplemental material from nier. honestly i think its a great raid series. i didn't understand all of the story, but the raids themselves were incredible

[@unixtreme]

3:30 everyone I know hates Crystal Tower but I think it's because of the roulettes

[@TheKhronos]

It’s interesting to hear the other opinions on this raid. I’m a newer player and a big nier fan- and ending on this raid solidified shadowbringers as my favorite expansion. I am super happy to have experienced them

[@Charlie99993]

My favorite part about the Drakengard party is that the PDF file is one of the least morally ambiguous because he at least has the integrity to hate himself for it

[@ArchonZach]

Im glad I got into nier and drakengard when the games were like 10 dollars at gamestop instead of costing more used than when they were new 😭

[@1-2-rkcubed3]

Wonderfully put together dive into one of my favorite pieces of ff14 content! Watching you ignore (almost) every time Gallows and Gibbet became available caused me pain though XD

[@VervaraRozthan]

Well done!

[@TheKhronos]

You aren’t wrong about the story critiques though. Thank you for the video it gave me more to think on

[@satyasyasatyasya5746]

Loved your FFXIV videos about the villains and stuff, really great stuff :) Although I played XIV for like 10 years (on and off) restart-itis meant I never got farther than 3.X hahaha So it was nice to see what happens and stuff. Although I kinda knew already. But all in all, MMOs just aren't for me.

[@Catspirit123]

Well now I understand why my one friend who played all these games was freaking out at the final boss back when it came out…

[@The4thSnake]

I'd like that retrospective. And more Hitman.

[@SpacedogD]

I'd love to see an essay going through the ivalice raid series. Out of everything in the game, that raid series is the one I have no idea what head or tail is going on and didn't even get any bit of story information by the time i finished it.

[@clanky112]

Great video, I didnt't know anything about Drakengard/Nier before this, and now the raid kinda makes sense. I feel like people often make the mistake of trying to explain everything in this raid series within the magic system of ffxiv, which doesn't quite work since we are dealing with entities from another universe where magic work in different ways. But I think that you kinda went in the opposite direction with Anogg. You tried to explain why she isn't evil in the context of Drakengard lore, but the events take place in the ffxiv universe, where different magical forces are at play. Thr fact that souls are very real things in ffxiv might have an effect on what the seed of destruction can do to her (like it can affect her body and mind, but can't alter her soul).

[@DICEBOY22]

This sounds super evangelion twisty and honestly very interesting!! I would have taken a deeper dive into the story as its own expansion over what we got in Dawn trail.

[@BranBal]

I never played Nier or Drakengard. I love Nier raids It has some of the best fights and glamours

[@fnerXVI]

I love the fights in the alliance raids, they're very fun. I've only played Nier Automata once so i didn't understand much about it It's a fun crossover, but it needs to stay in its own corner lol

[@RockR277]

Huh, ya know I always figured the key just woke the other androids up and the bunker was incidental. Or maybe they were trapped inside the bunker somehow. I dunno.

[@CallN0w]

Thank you for your video I enjoyed it very much. I did occasionally furrow my brow at lore errors though 😤

[@ZuldimYT]

Ok, I'm genuinely curious which lore errors you're referring to, and whether they're actually things I misunderstood, or things I deliberately simplified for time.

[@CallN0w]

@@ZuldimYT ...it might be the latter!

[@ZuldimYT]

​@@CallN0wCondensing a 20 year franchise into a ten minute recap requires some sacrifices haha

[@CallN0w]

@@ZuldimYT yeah i just get stupid about ny favorite franchise lmao. Sorry! Between this and the Zenos vid you got a subscriber out of me

[@ZuldimYT]

​@@CallN0wOh, it's ok, I didn't think you were being rude at all. I've dealt with people getting rude over lore errors before and this wasn't that. :P Glad to have you on board, I hope you enjoy my future videos!

[@user-cl3vy7pw8s]

Holy shit, no wonder you've been gone so long!

[@ZuldimYT]

I also moved, that didn't help.

[@Metroid13]

great video as always - i can only agree that the story for these raids was a real missed opportunity, though i'd never considered that it was probably due to rewrites. i also agree that the two series seem to be like oil and water, not really meant to mesh well outside of really particularly nuanced writing. great raids mechanically, probably my favorite when it comes to the act of playing through - my favorite of the raids stories is void ark by far, since i'm a sucker for that kind of swashbuckling storyline (and also it's one of the only alliance raids that feels like a mostly, wholly unique thing to 14's setting). i'd be curious to see your take on the Ivalice raids, which i also kinda hated story-wise.

[@jedikitteh]

I really enjoyed the raid series from a mostly out of context way. The only game I'd played was Drakenguard 3 and honestly I was just like wow this is all pretty and I didnt even know drakenguard was part of the Nier series at the time Rofl. The story made no sense, but I'd been told that Nier didn't make sense either and just never questioned it LOL

[@fluffdafire157]

Saddening thought is what if the Anogg at the end of the story wasnt the Anogg we knew but just another clone from a different seed trying to do everything again

[@desdenova1]

A lot of the haterade I see about the Nier raids seems to boil down to "Sci-fi? In MY fantasy game?!" Bruh... did you not notice the walking tanks in ARR's opening cinematic?

[@Gloomdrake]

All of f*cking Allag, too

[@skaldi8347]

I hope those people are SEETHING in Solution Nine right now

[@YozoraHeart]

Child that I am, I let fans get to me with this raid series. Because there was a pretty common refrain that I just couldn't get past. Story hard to follow and invest in? Classic Yoko Taro! Bosses have too much health? Classic Yoko Taro! A random bug that they fixed shortly after? Classic Yoko Taro! I just got sucked out of it. If everything is classic Yoko Taro and I don't particularly like any of it, I guess the series just ain't for me. Puppets' Bunker is sick tho

[@cuppy666]

To be fair considering this is a franchise originally unrelated to XIV I don’t know why anyone would have issue with the twins being the main characters, from a raid perspective our character has always been the side character to someone else’s motivations pushing the story along and from an in world perspective it makes more sense to have characters originating in XIV itself be our main characters as well since it’s their world that Nier shenanigans are infringing upon. It’s the twins world that is being affected by these events so if Nier characters were to just show up and start directing the story it would have seemed out of place while doing it this way shows the writers had some amount of respect for the lore of both series enough to show that the events aren’t happening “just because” and they do have some impact on the inhabitants as well as the invading characters

[@user-cl3vy7pw8s]

Tfw you hope this gives even the tiniest bit of update on Ending E to Replicant because gosh dang it they deserved happiness but then you realize Replicant didn't even exist when this came out so all the first game had was Ending D.

[@nexmeles8023]

I can't wait for Neir 3 and have these two come into it somehow.. haha

[@generaln0nsense848]

At the start of part 3, where you list criticisms of the raids being a "waste of a space" actually said those genuinely seemed like they dont understand ffxiv alliance raids. At the time, only 1 alliance raid ever actually progressed the story of ffxiv and thats crystal tower. Mhach and the Stormblood alliance raids (including Bozja) are almost entirely self contained. Also, basically every alliance raid except endwalker's and this one were always references to other final fantasy games. We would not have gotten a Ronka raid, or an Amaurot raid despite how interesting they sound.

[@GothicJ]

Having played reincarnation, The game started to get bogged down with Character levels/rank, Costume level bonuses, Character Stone tablets, exalting characters, Memoir's levels and synergy, Primary and 2 secondary Weapon levels + stats/ skill levels /synergies, Blackpearling weapons and costume books to uncap levels, Costume Karma (That only some costumes had) and finally... Character assentions! This is all for ONE CHARACTER in a gotcha game xD Granted the characters were the same so if you stone tableted and exalted 1 character it would carry through all their costumes but still! its best just to watch the cutscenes and not actually play it!

[@phatchz]

33:45 ; this is SO much funnier after playing through 7.0

[@Gloomdrake]

There is, to my knowledge, only one branching path in FFXIV, at the culmination of the Eureka storyline

[@serialexperimentslain]

always with the amazing releases

[@mrbubbles6468]

In fairness, expecting you to have 100% every game, including the alt endings to understanding anything in a game completely unrelated to them is very on brand.

[@sleepysera]

At around 1:04:58 you say you can't confirm that this is the Square Enix building, but the company name is literally IN the shot in the background as you say it, on the right side of the building 😂

[@The_Catman]

I felt it was a great story about powerlessness. Videogame players, in general, always hate stories about powerlessness. Players feel their actions always must lead to something meaningful and succesful. "I succeded in the gameplay, so I deserve to succeed in the story" Players present this distaste in many ways. The "Win in the game, lose in the cutscene" meme is a very common sign of that distaste. But that restrains videogames from talking about half of the cake of life: failure. In life, you more often than not, fail. Total victories are rare, usually we gain something and lose something else. We call them victories when we gain a little more. In games, maybe for the escapist nature of the medium, we often refuse that inescapable notion. I loved Dark Apocalypse for 2 reasons: 1-I played when it was already entirely out (in general, the patch by patch approach always seemed to me as an abysmal way to enjoy FFXIV's content) 2-It was a story about the Warrior of Light being totally powerless to obtain the best ending possible for everyone. Until Shadowbringers, the Warrior of Light was unbeatable and unstoppable, except for a couple of inconsequential fights with Zenos in Stormblood (when it really mattered, you washed the floor with his face). An absolute hero, incredibly powerful. The only people who died in the story at that point were the people who were so crazy they thought to do your job and protect you just once from threats you disintegrate at the first occasion. You, for the sole reason of being exceptionally good at murdering things, get everything right. People always listen to your wise, monosillabic advice, or die under the weight of your unimaginable power (the motherfucking Pope in Heavensward dies asking you "Who...What are you?!"). And everything always fixes itself afterwards. Dark Apocalypse asks one question: what about times when killing is not remotely enough? To be clear...you save the world in this story. The machine life forms would have become a threat so great, Meteion would have been a nuisance by comparison, if they had the time to develop before meeting you. But you can't save Konogg, let alone Anogg. You can't erase the trauma and conflicts between the dwarfs of the village. For once, you're an outsider: nobody trusts you on the level to entrust their entire stance on the situation on your judgement. You prevented far worse, and that's it. You were not there to save Anogg when she truly died. You could not mend the pain Konogg felt for her death. You did not know the necessary details to even act upon Konogg's acceptance for most of the time. It was not meant for you to heal the village like nothing ever happened. For once, you just killed the bad guys...and that's it. That's what you're really good at and this time you meet the very real limits of that. Konogg falls into a desperate struggle to gain back what has been lost for ages and can't be retrieved and dies painfully, alone, crying, either allucinating, or transported by some sick game into a place we know for sure will kill him atrociously. Or neither of that...and nobody ever sees him again. You're not allowed to know what became of him. This was never your story. This was his. And he took his decisions. You're just left there, alone, uncertain of what really happened, with the clear sensation that you could not really save this village. You know they will have to find a way to go on, rebuild, accept their losses, and become something new... Maybe not a better place. Maybe not better people. But, maybe, functional enough to have a chance to be happy once more, one day. You? You have your life. The source needs saving. Fandaniel is about to go crazy. You have to be somewhere else. Your time is up. For once...you could not do enough. I loved this story. Maybe because my job IS helping people. Try to save them. And I had to learn, at some point, that you can't save everyone. More often than not, you should be happy you even had really a chance. Things go terribly wrong the majority of the times. You did not act as fast as you could. They called for help when it was already too late. You met your limits and failed. They didn't listen...and destroyed themselves, or died. And you now have to live with it. Accept that you can be as piwerful as a single human can be, and still not be enough. It was a story about that. And I loved it. Because if a Warrior of Light really existed...that would be the weight of their mission. I'm happy there's a part of FFXIV that spoke about that.

[@tenebris9182]

Just a friendly reminder that, while these were both shut down, both SINoALICE and Nier reincarnation are canon, reincarnation even having 2P in it and multiple ffxiv collaborations, ffxiv even has mama from reincarnation in it

[@tenebris9182]

I made this before watching the full video, oops, still though, I think it’s fun too talk about this stuff, also I think it’s awesome that SINoALICE stuff appears in the main story of reincarnation, and that obscure characters like 10H are also in the main story. Also while I never played the nier raid I love watching it and I love the lore in it

[@Geeji_]

this is unrelated to most of this video but man watching you NOT push gibbit and gallows multiple times hurts to watch

[@reallightfield5314]

Your commitment to not doing gibbet or gallows is almost as great or the vid

[@krysmphoenix6010]

Regarding the raid's "canon" aspect... I kind of see the raid as a "what if" idea for Automata having magic/maso/aether thanks to this being XIV and letting the Drakengard subtext become text. To me that was the funny aha moment of the raid which... now that everything is put into context truly is almost shallow and pointless. Normally when I comment on retrospectives on this I try to imagine what could been done better, on how things could have tied into the themes of Shadowbringers (staying alive in defiance because someone else wants you dead for their greater good) and its just... there feels like so little relevant substance to reference that I'm left wondering is there anything here to even use as a foundation beyond just "there was a seed of destruction?" This still remains by far my favorite raid series because of the battles and the music. The Laser Hallway in the Bunker is my favorite trash wave filler because of how simultaneously difficult and easy it is. It feels more like a minigame, and similar to the Atomos in World of Darkness. I'll happily play it over and over and complete my YorHa glamour collection.

[@yasminluthfiaa1311]

Nowe? More like... NO WAY!

[@one1virtuoso]

For Drakengard 1 I feel its less that killing is wrong, its just that Caim's flaw is that he's a fucking psycho. Kind of a deconstruction of musou almost. I get that it stings a little that the game actively encourages you to end all life though. One of my core impressions of that game is running down an unsuspecting group of mobs (I'm goddamn calling them mobs even lmao) and plowing right through them with a dash attack. The combat definitely sucks enough for it to feel deliberate.

[@RockR277]

Idk how popular of opinion this might be, but I actually don't have a problem with the Dwarf part of this raid story. I actually think the twins and their drama with everyone else is interesting and I like the plot points about how no one wants to take responsibility and everyone wants someone to blame. What I hate is how the NeiR stuff is just set dressing. It's poorly integrated. Little more than fanservice you can "oooh" and "aaah" at because, hey look these models are familiar to me! If the story had been completely the same without the NeiR theming, I think I'd like it a lot more.

[@VoisKaniress]

Hello! I actually have the answer to "Yoko Taro says the raid series is canon" for you. He never said that. What he said was "Everything is canon to NieR". Essentially saying everything Nier shows up in, or is connected to the DrakenNier universe is canon to the franchise. This means that Soul Calibur is canon to DrakenNier. Additionally for people asking this question, it's incredibly telling they ask it. We do not ask if crossover events are canon if they're from Final Fantasy, we do not question Dragon Quest crossovers being canon, nor do we question if the other alliance raids are canon. The question, in and of itself, is telling that the individual asking it *does not WANT* the raid series to be canon, but it is. Until we're given reason to believe it's not, and we've been given nothing to tell us so.

[@nicolaartemissteelesmith9305]

I don't understand Neir and think it would be cool if someone could understand it for me.

[@awildserah]

I strongly disagree about your assessment of Drakengard 3. I repeatedly call it the last great PS3 game for a reason.

[@ZuldimYT]

I respect that, my main problem was the SEVERE performance issues. If it had run better I would be a lot more charitable to it (although I still think a lot of the comedy misses the mark).

[@alieremainsalie6469]

wasn't up on the discourse around the raid and unfortunately agreeing with the haters after this run-down. a whole raid that's basically not even canon in ff14!!! years of content the events of which they can't ever really even refer back to because it would be ridiculous to further entwine these two totally incompatible moral universes!!! blehhh don't mind em coming up in duty roulette tho anything but crystal tower

[@cj_skywalker]

I'm sure that in another reality, these raids would not have existed and something else would have been the Shadowbringers Alliance Raid. Alliance Raids in FFXIV usually are connected to the world of FFXIV - the Crystal Tower raids give lore to the Allagan Empire of the 3rd Astral Era, the Mhach Raids are connected to the Mhachi Kingdom of the 5th Astral Era, the Ivalice Raids, while they also a crossover with the Final Fantasy Tactics world of Ivalice, are connected because Dalmasca was made a part of Ilsabard, which Garlemald invaded, and the Myths of the Realm raids explain the origins of the Twelve, what these 'gods' are and why they want to kick your @$$. XD YoRHa seems completely out of left field and disconnected to the world it is in. That is why people despise it and wish it didn't exist. I don't care much about lore, though, so it doesn't piss me off, but I am sure Yoko Taro lost a lot of fans when he introduced those raids. ;p And yes, the Dawntrail Alliance Raids, Echoes of Ivalice, is another crossover, but like Return to Ivalice it will have its reasons for existing.

[@satyasyasatyasya5746]

I'm only 18mins in and there's some small nuanced errors already. I won't nitpick but they're there. Not worth remaking the video but we'll see xD

[@ZuldimYT]

In my defense, I was trying to be *very* brief and so I simplified a lot of stuff intentionally. Drakengard lore/history could be a three hour video of its own. :P

[@OmegaEnvych]

@@ZuldimYT There is like 5 hour long video about Draken/Nier timeline on the KZbin. So uh, 3 hours is very generous when it comes to brevity

[@AnakhaSilver]

"It doesn't really say anything." WRONG. It's a story about the unfairness of being an outcast and how groupthink treats those who don't fit the mold. Anogg and Konogg are always outcasts--and they are the ones who are treated like shit for EVERYTHING. Even if it's not an accident. The thing you wanted isn't NIER. It's generic. You want ShB 2. I LIKE what the NieR raids did, especially alongside Reincarnation! Hell, your suggestion of 9S putting her in the seed is JUST INUART AGAIN. You literally want them to redo story beats they already DID. Like it or not, Yoko Taro doesn't LIKE retreading the story beats like that. Anogg, I feel, is different because she wasn't a selfish resurrection. She was an accident. And with no influences, I don't think she had a selfish desire to CORRUPT into a monster. Just Anogg. This is a repeated motif in Yoko Taro's works--where selfish desires (like reviving someone on purpose) will twist into your destruction. Anogg made HERSELF from a freak accident. There was no intent to corrupt. the Seed couldn't create a monster because she wasn't created by Konogg. This makes it a twist. Because Yoko Taro doesn't ALWAYS like writing sad endings. He likes to fuck tropes up--which is what you miss. Yoko Taro isn't cynical like you think, he just hates how certain tropes are. That's the ENTIRE point of the end of Automata and why we have Weight of the World and helping each other. He's a VERY hopeful person who thinks humanity can be better, we're just bogged down by trauma. ALL of the messages you can leave, all of the choices you make during the ending, that inevitably lead to the choral part... They're all about how humanity is at its best helping each other and NOT GIVING UP. We're at our best being PASSIONATE. It's also VERY in-character that 9S and 2B would stay away as much as possible and not interfere. This story was meant to expand upon the machine lifeforms and come to the logical end of what they would do if given time to further evolve. they were ALREADY beginning to mimic the YoRHa. I fully believe what ended up in the seed was ONE of the Red Girls--given they turned on each other. So it continued her selfish will to self-perpetuate and evolve, resulting in finally mimicking the YoRHa and thus 2P--the one who resisted the Logic Virus the longest. 9S attacks us because we're WITH 2P. Someone who he knows isn't a good person. It's VERY NieR: that we think we're doing good and we AREN'T. We don't have the full story. Gonna be honest, I think you just are mad you didn't get the story you wanted and your own misunderstanding of Yoko Taro's works. Like why he wrote Furiae and Caim that way--Caim is a logical extreme of what a lot of protags would actually look like in video games. Furiae is a logical version of the younger sister who crushes on her older brother. He's DISGUSTED by her. Hell, even our resident paedophile--the entire point is that most people with that are torn to pieces by their own internal conflicts and are peoples, often with unwanted desires. That's. The. Point. He takes these tropes and tears them down in Drakengard, while in NieR he ends up on bittersweet but emotional upswings.

[@ZuldimYT]

"I think you are just mad you didn't get the story you wanted" Sure bud, I'm the one of us that sounds "mad."

[@shadeblackwolf1508]

Raids in 14 are normally easy to follow, self-contained stories with some connections to wider lore you don't have to understand to be able to get it... This raid breaks that promise

[@adislavchev]

Not for me bro, sorry

[@anthonydelfino6171]

I want to add when it came to the nature of an ongoing story hurt things… Even at the best of times I struggle to remember the finer points of the 24-man raid stories. The story is mostly just told in three chunks over the course of two years But this was exacerbated here with Covid delaying patches so the start of this story in October 2019 and the second chapter of things, we had almost a full year (the second raid was released in August 2020) This made telling what seemed like a more complex story hard to remember, and harder still for someone like me largely unfamiliar with the series as a lot of details were lost and the raids themselves did little to remind us of what had happened narratively Also another non story related complaint I know many had… the gear for each tier of the raids looked largely too similar to what came before. And it’s still a major disappointment that while the game did give glamor for the 2B outfit, the 9S outfit was never made available for those of us playing male characters