Making ‘The Last Dance’ with Jason Hehir | The Bill Simmons Podcast

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Jason Hehir to talk about his experience directing his documentary about Michael Jordan and the Bulls, ‘The Last Dance.’
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[@patrickthomas8890]

I love how Jason didn’t shoehorn himself into the doc with something like “This is MY journey to discover who MJ really is” and filming himself driving from place to place while narrating what he’s doing.

[@laner1172]

that's something Bill would totally do

[@MrR9999]

I'm glad Jason mentioned Scottie's redemption in episode 10. That's the way I received the entire Scottie story arc. I've been super surprised how little people have recognized that.

[@KINGAMIIAMKING]

@MrR9999 Ingrate Scottie Pippen was overrated and a glorified role player who would've been Stacey Augmon without Jordan's benevolence and tutelage. In 1998, with Pippen out 35 games (and injured throughout the entire playoffs), Jordan led them to 62 wins including 24-11 during Pippen's absence. All Stars on the Bulls Championship Teams (Not including Michael Jordan). 1991: Zero 1992: One 1993: One 1996: One 1997: One 1998: Zero MJ never had 2 All Stars on his team … Michael Jordan won his first and last Championship without another All-star teammate. Michael Jordan Age 35 ▫️Lead Bulls to 62-20 Record with Pippen missing 35 Games ▫️MVP, Scoring Title, Championship ▫️1st Team All NBA and All Defense ▫️45 Points and Game Winner in Game 6 of the NBA Finals Game 6 1998 NBA Finals The Greatest Minute of Basketball in NBA History. Down 3 points with only 41 seconds left Jordan quite literally did EVERYTHING!!! He scored the quick layup keeping the Bulls hopes alive with 37 seconds left. Next he had the Defensive IQ to act like he was moving with Hornacek but in reality he stayed behind Malone and poked the ball out. If that wasn’t enough he comes down casually and hits THE SHOT ... MJ did it on BOTH ends. MJ 45 points game winning shot Toni Kukoc 15 points Pippen 8 points 👀 Harper 8 points Rodman 7 points Jud Buechler 2 points Bill Wennington 2 points Scott Burrell scored ZERO POINTS Steve Kerr scored ZERO POINTS Luc Longley scored ZERO POINTS

[@jstdun]

​@@KINGAMIIAMKING You post this essay and highlight single games in particular. I will give you that they were huge games and I'm not discounting MJ. My single retort is that Scottie went 86-56 on the Bulls without MJ, while averaging 22-9-6 and 3 steals. These are all-star level numbers. Why do you feel the need to discredit Pippen's value to those teams? This is seriously the FIRST time I have seen someone do this.

[@shaftlamer]

You obviously didn't watch pippen at the time. Pippen was weakminded and never any type of clutch. ​@@jstdun

[@thedefinitionisthis]

Obviously none of us can speak to what Scottie feels in his own mind, but it should be noted that during the segments about Scottie having to work through back issues during Game 6 in '98, the doc has a Bulls trainer outright say (though I may be getting the exact words wrong): "Anyone who says Scottie Pippen is weak or weak-minded is absurd. Having to manage that pain, and barely be able to run, and he still went on there and competed." Like, you can say the documentary itself is trying to "spin" certain things, but it did have numerous moments that legitimately showed Pippen in a positive light, despite his decisions (ie. sitting out, contract negotiations, delaying injury treatments; all of which DID happen). Hell, his focus episode even has Michael openly call Pippen his best teammate, and that he doesn't win 6 without him. So I dunno... he can feel how he feels, but i don't think the documentary is some assassination of his character, like he's made it out to be.

[@dimitrijetucovic1307]

One of the best sports documentaries ever made.

[@Boston_CremePie]

It’s basically a 6 hour Jordan Brand commercial - I wouldn’t call it a documentary, it seems one sided.

[@dimitrijetucovic1307]

@@Boston_CremePie Well i see someone's got a room temperature IQ.

[@Boston_CremePie]

@@dimitrijetucovic1307 That would be you. You’re too emotionally fragile to discuss without acting like a scorn woman.

[@mordecaidrake]

Not at all... it was a fake ass infomercial... not historical truth

[@mordecaidrake]

​@@dimitrijetucovic1307 yes, you😂

[@tiagopinto365]

Great Interview!!! i hope one day we get to see more of those 400Hours of footage and Jason is the man for a part 2 and 3!

[@BasedSherpa]

Hearing how hectic the production of the documentary was it's really amazing how great the final product turned out. By far the best sports documentary I have ever seen. Glad they didn't take the rap out lol

[@andretaylor1969]

Kudos to Jason and his team for producing such a gem of a doco given the substantial challenges. Jason, please do some more!

[@adamandrikos4093]

Scottie had a possession before the 1.8 and couldn't get a shot off, that wasn't his game. Toni could manufacture jumpers.... that's why they went to him. Scottie had the ball "iso" the previous possession, and most Bulls fans know, tough shot coming.

[@aidangreen7006]

I don’t even care about sports at all and have never been enthusiastic about them. Besides HOOP DREAMS, this is probably the best sports documentary ever made, and I was absolutely locked in for the entire runtime of every episode of The Last Dance. It’s incredible.

[@DavidBagga]

90s kid and former hooper here. The last dance and MJ taught me something really valuable. In the first 5 minutes you hear MJ saying “let’s put things aside and focus on that craft.” As a small business owner that really hit home with me when he said that, bc it gave me a birds eye view into MJs mentality and I’ve applied it ever since. Best sports documentary ever made. Thank you jason Hehir 🐐

[@mattsell2361]

Covid happening was easily the best thing for the documentary. It was literally the only sports thing to talk about

[@tiagopinto365]

what a delight and a masterful documentary, even more so after hearing what Jason had to go through...Last Dance became part of the modern zeitgeist remembering the 90s Zeitgeist🧨🧨🏀🎇 we need part 2 and 3 please!!

[@shedrickturner7758]

Jason and his team did a excellent job with this documentary

[@agentcodybanks1]

The interviewer needs to let’s Jason talk. He’s getting cut off constantly

[@Myles720]

Such a great episode this was. The breakdown and behind the scenes explanations of the process and how frustrating it can be to make these great docs was insightful. For example, the last dance doc how you got notes from 4-5 different parties wanting input and things edited a certain. I can only imagine all the constant back and forth. Great interview guys!

[@September2004]

It’s amazing how lucky Jordan has been on top of all his strength of character and talent. For that doc to come out during COVID.

[@tiedngag]

When this came out, first it was amazing, especially for someone who grew up in the 90’s. Secondly I have Jordan and Pippen basketball cards and the value of both went up exponentially due to the Jordan being more visible due to Last Dance. I watch it once a year just to appreciate it. There is other topics and material that would be great in another Last Dance.

[@seanjones182]

I want more of this content and behind the scenes story.

[@joeknapp9162]

The doc was far more immersive without mentioning Bron than it otherwise would have been.

[@razkable]

Kobe played like mj and played against him...lebron isn't apart of the mj story from 81 to 98 or even in 2001 really with the wiz...2002 is when the lebron is the next mj stuff came to light...

[@ryanschill3656]

I’m an oldhead and lived and died with the 90s Bulls. I remember the last episode and not realizing how much guts it took Scottie to play in that game 6. I gained new respect for him there. …. But then he ruined it. Lol. But still, I thought the doc gave Scottie his flowers for sure.

[@patrafter1043]

Great interview Bill. Asked awesome questions and got some interesting answers. Good shit man

[@marquisdaily7715]

When Bill jokes about his retirement, I get nervous. I hope this day never comes

[@dimitrijetucovic1307]

It won't, don't worry. He's way too passionate about this shit.

[@MrOctober44]

​@@dimitrijetucovic1307Yup. Ego, money. He's never walking away

[@deouzjh99]

Man I had to pause before my next video played to make sure this was acknowledged 🫡 .

[@Gutirinthians1]

don't worry, he makes a ton of money and he loves doing this

[@JimmyGoOutside]

Just listened to the podcast today and just finishing up the Small Market, Big Heart doc on KZbin. Fantastic! As a Wizards fan I don’t know if we have that dedication

[@wyadlon]

Women that i work with who dont follow sports have seen the last dance. Its a phenomenon. And the timing of its release made it legendary. We needed it so bad and it delivered

[@klewis564]

I’ve seen this Doc 3x lol about to watch one more

[@jonpilot4912]

A++ interview , well done

[@KINGAMIIAMKING]

Michael Jordan never lost a Championship Series in his entire career (12-0) NCAA Championships: 1-0 Olympic Gold Medals: 2-0 FIBA Gold Medals: 2-0 NBA Championships: 6-0 McDonald's International Championship 1-0 Without Scottie Pippen and Dennis Rodman In 1998, with Pippen out 35 games (and injured throughout the entire playoffs), Jordan led them to 62 wins including 24-11 during Pippen's absence. All Stars on the Bulls Championship Teams (Not including Michael Jordan). 1991: Zero 1992: One 1993: One 1996: One 1997: One 1998: Zero MJ never had 2 All Stars on his team … Michael Jordan won his first and last Championship without another All-star teammate. Michael Jordan Age 35 ▫️Lead Bulls to 62-20 Record with Pippen missing 35 Games ▫️MVP, Scoring Title, Championship ▫️1st Team All NBA and All Defense ▫️45 Points and Game Winner in Game 6 of the NBA Finals Game 6 1998 NBA Finals The Greatest Minute of Basketball in NBA History. Down 3 points with only 41 seconds left Jordan quite literally did EVERYTHING!!! He scored the quick layup keeping the Bulls hopes alive with 37 seconds left. Next he had the Defensive IQ to act like he was moving with Hornacek but in reality he stayed behind Malone and poked the ball out. If that wasn’t enough he comes down casually and hits THE SHOT ... MJ did it on BOTH ends. MJ 45 points game winning shot Toni Kukoc 15 points Pippen 8 points 👀 Harper 8 points Rodman 7 points Jud Buechler 2 points Bill Wennington 2 points Scott Burrell scored ZERO POINTS Steve Kerr scored ZERO POINTS Luc Longley scored ZERO POINTS

[@freeguy3751]

The making of the The Last Dance doc sounded so full of intensity, drama, and chaos. Thank you Jason for helping me get through the pandemic. Glad you didn't actually have a heart attack! One of the greatest documentaries of all time.

[@mikejanacone8328]

Last dance and tiger King were the Covid must watches

[@nealmcmahon8534]

Great interview! One of the best docs of all time.

[@RPGabe]

Cool conversation

[@retic55]

such a cool talk

[@justinsalzl1517]

Regarding Pippen sitting out - I seem to recall the previous couple possessions were plays called for Pippen. Didn’t he miss a shot and have a turnover or something similar? And that’s why Phil went to Tony?

[@DarinAtkins]

Yup.

[@Theiliteritesbian]

That guys eyes are crazy. Reminds me of moose from band of brothers.

[@mrmalcolm6988]

The documentary could've been 20 episodes

[@xxphactor]

I still think the OJ Doc was one of the best in terms of storytelling, although I hated the look of the interviews. But both docs had great structure and made sense.

[@JohnSmith-vy7ck]

One of my favorite documentaries is “HYPE!” From Doug Pray.

[@peaboss]

Anyone in here know if Bill has done anything on Dynasty: Patriots doc? (I skimmed through his pod descriptions and didnt find anything)

[@Tehui1974]

Wow, I didn't realise how many groups with vested interests the director had to work with in order to complete the documentary. It sounds like it was a complete cluster f*. That documentary was fire by the way. He did a great job with it.

[@MrMack1622]

Bro that opening question took forever . “ how was your experience bc the world was going to end, and you couldn’t work directly with people, and things kept changing and no one knew what was going to happen and …..”

[@michaeltylermedia]

I wouldn’t mind a raw supercut of the 98 footage

[@17NateJohnson]

I totally saw the Scottie stuff the way this guy meant it.

[@JayTheRealtor305]

Can they make another documentary for Jerry West?

[@richardstephens7636]

Shotgunning beers right now

[@thelawfus]

0:47 because you had literally a captive audience. But I think the Last Dance becomes a mega success no matter what.

[@johnray527]

It is just incredible that Scottie Pippen feels like this doc ruined his reputation or that he needs to spend all of his media time attacking it. People loved the doc and they loved the Bulls and they love him. It's not more complicated than that.

[@ScottKilmartin]

4 sets of notes and a notes whisperer... that's some minefield to work in.

[@TChambers85]

Felt like Simmons cut off Jason a bunch of times when Jason had more to share

[@PaulTraces]

The Last Dance is a documentary, not just a sports documentary that will live in pop culture history FOR DECADES to come, you are literally being given a front row seat and a behind the curtain look to arguably the most iconic and famous athlete that has ever lived in Michael Jordan. I still watch an episode of the documentary from time to time like it’s a past TV show, which is incredible for a documentary to have that effect.

[@unclestinky6388]

"We're all going to die..." from CV? Puhleeeze

[@richmyrie4162]

the Dennis Rodman episode was THE BEST

[@JorisSatyadharma]

I'm sure they could've put out at least 2 additional episodes from Bill Wennington's camcorder footage. 😂

[@bottomfeederleader6156]

Hmm…funny about Pippen feeling slighted because I remember one of my biggest takeaways being a newfound, great respect for him. Pippen was unbelievable!!

[@WhelmedButReady]

My only critique of the doc was that they didn't go further into the 94 season when Scottie led the Bulls. My dad talks about how awesome of a season it was because people had the Bulls DOA and instead they stayed great and everyone stepped up. Its a legendary Bulls season. I think that would've gone a long way with positively affecting how Scottie perceives TLD

[@johnbrowntheprophet]

Yeah, they could have spent more time on that 1993-1994 season. The team started off poorly, and then they had a blowout win over the Suns that catapulted them towards a 55-27 finish. Moreover, Scottie Pippen was a Top Three MVP candidate that year, too. It was arguably the most enjoyable season to watch because they did so well without Michael Jordan. 🤷🏻‍♂️👍🏻

[@KickStaff]

@@johnbrowntheprophet Pippen was a great teammate for Jordan but LeBron literally had a FMVP (Wade) for 2 of his 4 titles. There's no question LeBron was surrounded by more talented players over his career.

[@x-man9473]

It wouldn't have. MJ has been praising Pippen left and right during the entire Bulls run and he never stopped feeling insecure. Let's stop making excuses for Pippen. He's an A-hole..

[@JoeMama-tl4tr]

Thought that was Kevin Wildes for a second

[@Musso88]

Me too.

[@jlrob85]

Shout out to Luc Longley 🇦🇺❤️🇦🇺❤️

[@kifacorea]

Just wish they included ANY luke longley

[@SharpwithanE]

For the algo

[@DaytimeNightmare]

And the thing about Scottie....is .. the doc...while yes ut brought up the silly things he did ..... I still felt better about Scottie after the Doc ...it had no negative affect on my feelings towards him

[@zoranstanoev9531]

I think some of Scottie’s hate comes from one of Jordan’s kids dating Scottie’s ex-wife.

[@MrOctober44]

I wonder what Scottie Pippen thinks about The Last Dance? 🤔

[@roycedot]

Could be Bill’s son

[@marsspacex6065]

Why the hell didn't Bill ask about the Inspiration 4 spaceflight series he did. The most important thing he has ever done. Damn Bill is clueless sometimes.

[@ap6160]

23:45 Because Lebum doesnt deserve to be in that doc

[@p.j.t.]

So MJ sent Isaiah Thomas a letter? Maybe not him, but his people. So that beef isn’t as bad as it seems?

[@johnbrowntheprophet]

First non-bot. 🤷🏻‍♂️👍🏻

[@petergianakopoulos4926]

Quiet bot

[@mr.e347]

Wish they would interview Sloan, Stockton and Malone for the series

[@ihavetheanswers]

Stockton was....Malone declined...Sloan was dying.

[@kevinscott9242]

Regarding Pippen refusing to go back into the game, is there any doubt that Kukoc being White played a big part in why Pippen felt so disrespected?

[@BobBoozle]

Um, Bill. You're not going anywhere. There are many more drafts to be had.

[@jamesmiller5331]

I've got a younger dude at work that is a huge LeBron stan and he is always talking about how when LeBron puts out his "last dance" people will realize that he's the goat And I'm like bro🤦‍♂️ there were people that thought MJ was goat material when he retired in 93. He came back and 3 repeated again. LeBron might be the best basketball player ever but you're never going to match the *career* that Jordan had. What's my opinion though. I put it out on the internet with trepidation because the LBJTQ community is always ready to pounce and swarm a MF

[@morganzimmerglass9925]

I think it’s kind of the opposite. Lebron’s probably had the better totality of career but never reached the highs Jordan did.

[@davepirtle9790]

Just looking at both players and their skills i believe lebron is the better player over all . Offense - shooting - Jordan Creating offense for others - lebron Rebounding - lebron Defense - man on man - Jordan but later in his career especially he was more of a roaming guard going for steals Post defense - lebron with his size Clutch shooting- Jordan is remembered for making some great clutch shots but at least 2 I remember were full push offs and obvious. The numbers show lebron had a higher percentage in the clutch but it’s rarely discussed. So overall I’d take lebron especially because early Jordan was a ball hog and those guys are hard to pick play with.

[@liulbitew14]

@@davepirtle9790it’s people like you who don’t know ball Jordan got off ball from 1989-1998 and won 6 titles but Lebron has never gone off ball in any season of his career why do you think the lakers play better without him

[@brianschwartz7351]

Stop with the Lebron debate, people who saw MJ even Kobe, know who the better winner and achiever was.

[@ctwwtc8761]

Lebron is better then kobe

[@masmirage]

I wish Shannon Sharpe watched this clip.

[@DaytimeNightmare]

Karl Malone and Byron Russell🪫 < 😆

[@bones2427]

It was always his intent to make Michael a hero. And Jordan Brand pushed even more for that. It is beyond apparent when you watch. You can't really call it a documentary, it's really a Jordan Brand PR piece. Fun watch but call it what it is.

[@mj23goat3]

Jordan WAS, IS, and ALWAYS WILL BE the Bulls hero. They didn't _make_ him that. He IS that.

[@adverseinperpetuity]

The fact that MJ doesn’t listen to rap makes me like him way more

[@morganzimmerglass9925]

Was I the only only one who was a little disappointed in the documentary? I almost felt like it was targeted for casual sports fans. I feel like for big NBA fans it didn’t do enough. Like it was fine but with all that footage they had access to of the most legendary run in amaeican sports history I felt like it should’ve been so much cooler. Tons of the stories felt watered down and too PC to me. I remember 4 years ago I had a bunch of examples but like that Rodman Vegas story should’ve been so much better for one. Letting Jordan have so much influence in the doc didn’t help anything either IMO.

[@johnbrowntheprophet]

I think it was geared towards people who didn’t know the whole Chicago Bulls Dynasty / Michael Jordan story. It wouldn’t make any sense to gear it towards hardcore NBA fans except those who are too young to remember Jordan. 🤷🏻‍♂️

[@JS-fw9ot]

Literally everyone else's story was more interesting than Jordan's because his story had all been heard before - it was the same thing just edited with some new footage in the last dance.

[@peterruskov]

Only Last Dance LeFlop will get is the Last LeBalco. 🤣🤣🤣

[@NickMachado]

Idk i thought the last dance was ok, nothing special.

[@sammalik128]

One of the most fake Disney-like docs ever which had to be approved by MJ himself.

[@markmittens]

This Jordan propaganda piece is what I needed during COVID

[@dereksupernaut]

16:00 nobody mentions that for the final game of the 1989 season Pippen gets elbowed by Laimbeer in the first 5 minutes and does not play the rest of the game, it looks like a hard hit BUT also looks like the type of hit someone like MJ is playing through... to be fair to Pippen WHAT THE FUCK did the migraine or not playing in '94 final seconds have to do with The Last Dance... for the 2nd 3-peat i thought Pippen did most of the dirty work and at least when his back was healthy might have been just as good as MJ due to Pippen's all-around play and MJ becoming more of a scorer than an all-around player, but his back was not healthy for the 2nd half of '96 which really hurts any argument Pippen makes about his greatness--most people mention Rodman and not Pippen as possible '96 Finals MVP due to Rodman's legendary Offensive Rebounding performance against a great Seattle defense that was built to slowdown the Bulls (Payton & Kemp were stars who played defense at a high level just like the Bulls stars, Nate McMillan was hurt and would have guarded MJ & Pippen coming off the bench)... fax!!!

[@jlrob85]

Michael’s people sound insufferable!!!

[@quarvo23]

That was not a documentary, it was a giant puff piece. Everything Wilbon said was immediately refuted by members of the Dream Team but no one on your team looks into it? Just a fluff job for MJ, WHO HAD FINAL CUT!!! He literally got to choose what was included, it was a fucking joke

[@DonBradyJr]

Joke is on you and ya reek of envy. Twenty-four million...only MJ gets those kind of numbers, so yes, you play by his rules.

[@jamesmiller5331]

Oh so he didn't 3-peat twice? That's craaaaazy bro because I feel like I remember all of it. It hits different when you lived and witnessed it instead of reading it on Wikipedia and watching a documentary.

[@ineedsaltplease620]

You're right, don't let idiots tell you otherwise. You're right. It's like watching a PR junket. Cringe

[@DonBradyJr]

@jdriscoll2000 - Winners and $ have only been writing history for like...forever.

[@ineedsaltplease620]

@DonBradyJr So what? Do you really think that's a point? It certainly doesn't refute anything, in fact it literally agrees with the point, only it adds 'don't be bothered by it.' Lol why, because you say so? Because the strong win out in history? So you're a narc at heart. Like, cool.

[@dio5731]

The fact they Boo’d his wife is just disgusting

[@mj23goat3]

But is it as disgusting as what Jerry's _Tribe_ is doing to the Palestinian people right now?

[@mbell7498]

This documentary was a disaster. It separated one of the greatest couples ever.

[@Howardzenful]

Get this propagandist outta here. We’re done with the 90’s.