Welding polarity and why electron theory is used (In response to

[@HardwayRanch]

Dude! Are you serious? Why aren't you teaching welding in trade school for the big bucks? I already know this stuff but this lesson you just gave has got the be the most simple and clear presentation on the topic there has ever been made! This is a fantastic lesson - I'll keep this one as reference.

[@bjorker40]

I totally agree….this guy is way intelligent and really knows how to communicate his theory to the masses

[@byronperry6014]

Because teaching doesn't pay enough.

[@jake-mv5oi]

He'll be making more on youtube before long than a teacher would make.

[@zacharytuttle5618]

I'm a Welding instructor and feel humbled by some of his content.

[@fucksusan420]

Might be because teaching doesn't pay big bucks by a long shot

[@mr_rader]

Thanks for breaking that down for us Greg. Book learning isn't everyone's favorite, but it is necessary and I appreciate you making it visual and digestible for us.

[@chauvinemmons]

so much of the book learning is based on dumb ideas and it's dead wrong that's why it's confusing and at that point most people just disconnect it's just dumb

[@TorBoy9]

That was a very clear lesson in polarity. If you have a consumable tip such as stick or flux core (dual shield), then run DCEP because the electrons will flow from your work to the tip, helping you melt the tip and wet out your weld. If you are doing TIG and you wish to not destroy your tip, or flux core, you must use DCEN so that electrons flow from the tip to your work, thus keeping your tip cooler. That makes a lot of sense. Thanks for such a clear lesson.

[@bojack2740]

Flux core is run DCEN

[@sebastianleicht]

Self shielding Flux is commonly DCEN. Gasshielded fluxcore (dualshield) Is DCEP (commonly) but as always: Look on the specsheet of the fillermaterial.

[@TorBoy9]

@@sebastianleicht my mistake, Flux core is DCEN. My learning continues.

[@ivanduke]

What about my tombstone welder?

[@TorBoy9]

@@ivanduke Your, and my tombstone, is AC negative, where the stick is positive. Does your tombstone have DC?

[@richarcruz7843]

Thank u Greg I don’t think there’s another video like this in th tube about polarity this is gonna help so manny thank u Greg for being a part of all of us’s Journey God Bless u always 🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽

[@johnmacmillan627]

Good one Greg👍 Excellent presentation, and on a Sunday!😊

[@markd6777]

That's a pretty good explanation my friend. You have a better grasp of this than most, well done. We used to joke that conventional theory was invented to teach high school students how to repair tube radios back in WII. Over my entire career and in school I have only ever used electron theory, as that's the way physical matter operates (unless you want to start talking about hole theory and positive charge). It's always a challenge for me to twist it around in my head and really think in "conventional" terms. Your explanation has a lot of good general "meat" in it. Nice to see a "thinking" welder for a change. With good basic understanding you can exploit the operational principles to achieve non-standard results. Well done!

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

Thanks for the kind words 😀. I really like how you described understanding of what’s going on can allow you to achieve non standard results. That’s exactly how so many things with welding were figured out so fast back in the 30-50s. A understanding of what’s going on gives the ability to suggest possibilities and predict outcomes. With no understanding massive time is wasted trying to figure things out.

[@chauvinemmons]

it's because what was taught was wrong then they had make up a bunch of crutches to make it seem right and it is still wrong even for fixing radios. the truth is electrons are the only thing that can move protons and neutrons make up elements they cannot move.

[@theoldbigmoose]

My hats off to you sir! I'm an engineer.... and never really understood this. I always used to get it wrong when going from TIG to stick.... now I get it!!! Woohoo! You should be teaching sir!

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

Thanks for the kind words and I am glad it helped you figure out what’s going on 😀👍. It’s super confusing and in the welding world polarity is basically just brushed off with minimal explanation. Once you know what’s going on welding makes a ton more sense 😀.

[@engjds]

My old lecturer explained it this way, you imagine 2 car parks, one at each terminal (+ and -), the cars are the electrons, so whilst the cars travel from - to +, the car spaces appear to move in the opposite direction (conventional flow). Also, where many electrons are confined to a space, they repel each other-hence with DCEP, they widen the cone arc, where as in DCEN, only so many electrons are allowed onto the tip because of the repulsion from each other. Great video as always, not enough theory is being taught here on YT except thru your channel.

[@garyplewa9277]

Thanks for the clear and concise explanation of welding polarity and it's effects. I learned to weld 40 years ago, but stopped to pursue another career. I recently retired and dusted off my old Lincoln TIG 300/300 and was unsure of the polarity to use for stick and TIG. This video was the refresher course I needed! Just yesterday I welded a 24 gauge heat shield for a friend using my 100 amp Lincoln MIG. The setting chart for 24 ga with CO2/Ar suggested switching to DCEN to prevent blowing holes in the metal. The results were exactly like you said, big blobs of metal with no penitration. Reverting back to the normal DCEP worked fine. you just needed to be careful. This video could not have come at a better time.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

Glad to hear that the video helped you out. It’s pretty crazy how little penetration DCEN with gas shielded mig has. Definitely not something you would want to use on thick steel lol.

[@jimboinsa]

Excellent! We just covered this in class the other day. This really brought it all together.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

Glad to hear that. I wish it was simpler than it is, but now you should really understand what’s going on 😀.

[@marcosmota1094]

Mister, I wasn't planning on watching this much YT, but your material is AWESOME! Thank you!

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

I am glad you enjoyed the videos. I try to provide a lot of info to help people out understand what’s going on, so they can become better at things 😀👍

[@tcsail09]

Excellent job. Thanks for sharing your expertise.

[@Jack-tr2ul]

When I listen to you talk there is a feeling of trust in your words because I detect a "Milwaukee accent," which I never noticed until I moved away. I was born there. Huge manufacturing history and you'se guys know what your talking about. Thanks, Greg.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

Definitely Milwaukee, excellent read on that 😀👍. The manufacturing history here is quite extensive, I will have to break out some of the historic manufacturing photos I have in a future video to shed some light on Milwaukee 😀.

[@repairfreak]

Thanks Greg for the explanation “in understandable terms” of how the polarity actually affects the welding processes. If I remember correctly from my electronics study years ago components such as NPN and PNP Transistors with the arrow drawn on their emitter lead were actually drawn pointing the wrong direction for representing electron flow. Then when they discovered electrons travel neg to positive they just kept the nomenclature of their drawings the same and to represent what they then explained the transistors symbols of the emitter lead to represent showing conventional current flow direction. Thanks for teaching us with your excellent videos my friend. 😎👍

[@Zonkotron]

Naaaah. It's even more complicated. In Bipolar (PNP/NPN) devices you have a lot of holes moving too. Those ARE positive. It's kinda impossible to get the arrow right when you have both types of carriers :D In N-Channel Mosfets undergoing active conduction you have only electrons. And consequently, their arrow is pointing in the correct eletronic direction. Source injects eletrons, drain....drains them. P channel again has the arrow inverted, only holes are moving. People have known about negative elementary charge for a looooooooong time. Can't design vacuum tubes without knowing.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

Your example is why the importance of everyone being on the same page of understanding matters lol. On any component that functions as a one way valve or otherwise the direction of electrons matters, polarity needs to be accurate for things to work. If everyone isn’t making the same assumptions on direction, something is sure not to work lol. I find it funny welding decided to label the terminals as what they actually are and follow electron theory, considering how many things in the US don’t follow that. Having virtually no highschool education I didn’t know of electron theory (or realize what was going on until I took a welding class) and didn’t understand why they labeled things like they did, which appeared wrong. Funny how somewhat inaccurate things wind up sticking around forever and people all over the world are taught differently lol.

[@sumduma55]

​@makingmistakeswithgreg it's not as odd or funny as you might think. Current theory was developed alongside water and steam power. Water power uses a concept of surplus and deficiencies to create a pressure difference then harnesses that for power. It's the same with everything, more pressure or force than resistance means something moves. In accounting, a surplus was always represented by a + (positive) which is the opposite of a deficiency represented as a - (negetive). So current theory was a primitive way to understand how to get work accomplished that still works today. A surplus of electrons moving to a deficiency. Welding or brazing on the other hand used flame and heat to bond materials together. It was always a molecular or atomic art even before we understood what was happening or electricity was a thing we used. So once we started understanding we could use electricity to heat the materials, it made sense to stay at the molecular or atomic state because we are still asking metals to bond with other metals. So the difference is really in getting useful work verses atomic structure and bonds. It just gets confusing when current is used to create the condutions for the atomic bonds and the terms blur.

[@vincnetb8080]

Very well explained! Where there once was confusion, there is no more, and by knowing the why, it makes sense, and I no longer have to memorize it. Thank you Sir!

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

Glad to hear that 😀👍. For many things electron flow simply doesn’t matter. Welding is one of the few things where understanding what’s going on with them explains why certain things seem backwards. And when you understand what’s going on you understand welding quite a bit more. Or at the very least they could have called DCEP straight polarity instead of DCEN, that would have made more sense in regards to keeping things as conventional current lol.

[@OldTantoGuy]

Very well done Greg! I went to welding school right after I graduated from high school and I never understood the why of Straight & Reverse Polarity until I was perusing an Electrical Engineering degree over twenty years later. It's kind of unfortunate that the made up convention of "current" came about a long time before electron flow became understood... In fact, "current direction" as it was understood at the time could have just as easily been established as negative to positive - I had one professor say that they just flipped a coin to define it and it landed on the wrong side...

[@sumduma55]

I don't think they flipped a coin. Current theory is too easily visualized as an excess or surplus on one side. It's based on how water flow (a common form of power at the time) seeks an equilibrium of pressures and is harnessed for energy or power. It's a well understood principle of the time. Take two identical tanks of water and connect them at the bottom with a valve to control flow. Fill one completely up with water and leave the other empty. You can say one has more or a surplus of water while the other has a deficiency. A surplus is represented by a positive number + and a deficiency is a negative number - just like in accounting. Open the valve and the full tank will transfer the surplus (+) to the deficient (-) side until the water level is equalized. This created a current or flow of water that can be harnessed to be used for useful energy - a waterwheel for example. So electrical current theory stems from existing terms and technology when it was being discovered that it can provide useful work also. Electron theory was develop from the atomic understanding of the process and since processes like welding was so closely related to the atomic fusion or bonding of materials, it made sense to stay in that reality. In short, it's identifying separate things using similar terms based on the existing technology of the time it was used.

[@UProof-xi1us]

Great video. It's very informative, just like your other videos. Thanks for the time and effort you put into this.

[@BobWolford-q2b]

I've enjoyed all of you videos- this one absolutely kicked ASS! Love the explanation that you gave, and as a hobby welder with a chemistry degree, it makes perfect sense. Thank you very much for the very thorough explanation. It was crystal clear.

[@Robert.Chauval]

Fantastic discussion on an often confused process.. in summary the plasma (electrons) carry the heat energy and the direction tells you where the majority of the heat will be.. youve clarified so much for me thank you.. 10 outta 10

[@darenscott1718]

Thanks Greg, this was a great vid. If the information on this subject that i have kicking around im my brain were a tool, this tool cuts pretty good. But you took that tool and ran it up a few more grits, then stropped it to a very fine edge. This metaphor has been brought to you by procrastination.

[@rpsmith]

When I went to electronics school in 1968, I was taught (correctly) that electrons flow from negative to positive. Later in my carrier I had the opportunity to work with several EE and trying to work through a problem when one guy is thinking - to + and the other guy was taught + to - was a real pain in the ass. Why not we just admit we were wrong in the past and we all start using the correct electron flow direction!

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

I 100% agree. The reason I keep hearing is “it doesn’t matter because as long as flow is present both theories work”. I think it’s holding people back not understanding more of what’s going on.

[@rpsmith]

@@makingmistakeswithgreg -- A long time ago, we thought the earth was flat. Why would we keep calling it flat now that we know it's round? :o)

[@fvrrljr]

@@rpsmith *Job 26:7 New International Version* He spreads out the northern skies over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing before long time ago aka when people stopped reading the bible

[@markmcgoveran6811]

Awesome lecture. I had 7 years of electrical engineering and we did run into the electron current and the conventional current. I really enjoyed your explanation of the effect on welds that the polarity has.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

Glad to hear you liked the video 😀👍. When you realize what’s going on it makes it a lot easier to understand why certain processes use certain polarities. I just wish it was explained better in welding schools and in general, because so much contradicts “common wisdom” and conventional current that it really is more confusing than it needs to be.

[@markmcgoveran6811]

@@makingmistakeswithgreg there's a lot of blind faith in welding. You're recrystallizing metal and trying not to make a stress rising weak spot. The entire thing is invisible. When you have that kind of mysterious process it tends to lead to a lot of superstition. At one point it was illegal to use iron to build a bridge because it was impossible to predict the quality of each different iron working persons out put.

[@robertkrecak1149]

Very good job explaining electron theory. As welders people need to know this stuff.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

Thanks. 😀👍

[@everettbrooks-shroyer3963]

Great video Mike. I’m a welding helper trying to learn the ropes. I’m already in love with welding!

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

Glad to hear your learning. You’re on the right track, learn as much as you can, it will only help. Get used to being frustrated a lot when learning, but once to get through the real steep initial learning curve you will be doing good 😀👍

[@mkearn724]

Great video Greg!!!! The way that you broke it down and made it understandable is greatly appreciated by many. In rare circumstances I’ve had to switch polarity on 7018 to dcen so that I wouldn’t blow holes in thin materials or due to gaps. I actually have to do a shitty 3 position weld test for a job that is an open root plate test( not sure who the hell would write a procedure like that), but I’m probably gonna switch polarity for my root if I’m allowed.

[@907jl]

Good stuff Greg! I was fortunate in being taught electron flow while in my tech school in the USAF. Good job explaining it.

[@Ca21431]

Another fine video, lilttle to complex for my lil pea brain but i sat thru it wondering how many people will watch this and think to themselves as i did, dam i wish i had greg for a neighbor!!! Keep putting out the videos and we will all keep watching them!! Thanks

[@chauvinemmons]

it only seems complex because what was taught was wrong.

[@garthland]

Best video yet!

[@jgemeinhardt3955]

Great video Greg, I've had many conversations with experienced and very talented welders who really had no idea why the change in polarity with the several welding processes. Also you might want to follow up with a quick video regarding proper grounding (if you haven't already) and how important it is to have clean, well connected conductors and grounding the piece vs. a table, etc.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

I have covered grounding in a few random videos. You are right, it matters a ton. A bad ground hookup will cause all sorts of problems, poor starts all the way to pieces that rattle. A rattling piece you’re trying to do a precision weld on is the worst 😅

[@AP9575-jd]

Just came across your video. Very informative. This was confusing to me too when I was taught. My instructor said to me think about the government, "What" I said. Senate & Representative he said. SEN & REP which means Smooth Electrode Negative and Rough Electrode Positive. Now we only welded stick & tig where I worked so this didn't really apply to mig. But it works.

[@steve9070]

Good Video! I used to work for PowCon in San Diego in the 1990's before Miller bought out us and Hobart. I fixed the power-control boards and tested welding in all 3-modes SMT400.

[@donsurlylyte]

powcon are good welders

[@HOLYHOUSE]

I love closing my eyes and listening to Jesse Ventura explain physics to me.

[@ivanduke]

Lol 😂

[@highgatehandyman6479]

Hah

[@gabecrockett6574]

Another fine class from Professor Greg!!

[@michaelstuckey7730]

Thanks Greg great video and great job teaching it.

[@michaellitzkow8123]

Thank you! I have been wondering about this for quite a while.

[@H33t3Speaks]

Hey man, serious point: Every arc is composed of ionized gas, this is how the electrons travel from the electrode to the base metal. When you dig further and begin to study the electronic composition of the reactants, much of welding theory is deeply illuminated. It’s all quite interesting but it’s best explained with chemistry and physics. None of this is magic, but it is!

[@JonathanEleini]

Very good video. All doubts are now gone. I have my answers. Thank you.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

No problem, I am glad the video had useful info for you 😀👍

[@bobs12andahalf2]

Dang I had no idea polarity had so many nuances. Thank you, Greg!

[@Horsingabout]

Great explanation, I was only aware SEN was heat into base metal. Once electrode packaging had earth noted on it

[@donsundberg5730]

I was taught SENators and REPresentatives which works in the USA. SEN = Straight Polarity Electrode Negative and REP = Revere Polarity Electrode Positive.

[@lotty468]

Thanks. I've wanted to understand about electricity flow for a long time. Now I know, clear as a bell. I enjoy the book learning aspect of welding. Cheers

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

No problem 😀. Now that you understand more about what’s going on, you will be amazed at how much incorrect info is out there lol. Don’t get me wrong, even my explanation is an overly simplified version of what’s going on, but it is functionally correct.

[@melgross]

That was very well explained.

[@rockets4kids]

When you are doing stick on sheet metal, do you switch over to DCEP?

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

Most stick rods run DCEP, switching to DCEN can help with blowing holes. I won’t sugar coat it, stick welding sheetmetal is hard lol.

[@prietjepruck]

Thanks for explaining this. It makes total sense to me now.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

No problem 😀👍

[@Whoosh0001]

Could you explain why in bushwelding (so using a string of car batteries) they insist on using straight polarity stick welding?

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

I definitely need to wire up some Batteries and see what I can do 😅. As far as why they use DCEN, I am not sure. It might have something to do with the lack of amperage control. Running DCEN might be less likely to burn through than DCEP.

[@michaelszczys8316]

Batteries are chemical electricity and it is totally flat DC. It does not have any kind of pulse and while it might have tons of current it does not ' arc ' very well. Awful hard to arc weld without an arc. I have tried it many times.

[@steeveejee4647]

great video again tons of information explained in a way everyone can understand. i first learned how to weld about five years ago with flux core using an old black chicago electric welder which is dcep anyway after youtubing it i quickly learned the with flux core you need dcen and actually modified my welder with a bridge rectifier and reversed the polarity on it and got much better results. then recently a you tuber actually sent me a sticker recently and i am now a youtube certified welder lol

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

Glad to hear you are a certified welder 😅. Those black boxes actually put out a/c and a bridge rectifier will turn it into dc. They produce a ton of spatter and a simple rectifier makes them weld far better.

[@therealspixycat]

Well explained. Thanks. For many this is very confusing you know

[@Gary-Seven-and-Isis-in-1968]

So if I was stick welding with DCEN would I be successful with welding material as thin as car body panels without blowing any holes in it ? Obviously using thin rods in the first place.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

So I can tell you this. DCEN with 6013 1/16th (1.6mm) rods makes is possible to weld auto body thickness material. I will not sugar coat it, unless it’s older (aka pre 1980s) sheetmetal that was thicker, you are in for one hell of a challenge. Self shielded flux core, or mig is really the way to go. Both of which can weld sheet metal far easier, and won’t leave you frustrated.

[@johnmarsh9651]

Just brilliant.. from the UK great job 👍

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

Thanks 😀👍

[@blahblahblahblah2933]

Nice explanation. The physics of electrical current is one of those things that gets weirder the closer you look. To add another twist, the velocity of electrons through a wire (the "electron drift velocity") is actually very slow, on the order 0.5 inch / minute. Of course turning on a light is almost instantaneous because the electromagnetic field (with which the electrons are interacting) propagates through the wire at a significant fraction of the speed of light.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

Thanks. And you’re right, the closer you look the weirder it does get. It’s immensely complex yet at the same time simple “in theory”. Definitely one of those things where “the more you think you’re right, you’re probably wrong when you look deeper” lol.

[@dondotterer24]

I forgot what is the best polarity to weld with 7018 and 7024. And can you use AC?

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

7024 runs fine on a/c. 7018 rods can work on a/c but some work better than others. With older machines the 7018 a/c rod works the best. However many others will work. When in doubt check the manufactures literature. If you find one you like and works, stick with it.

[@dondotterer24]

@@makingmistakeswithgreg Thanks. I have the old Lincoln tombstone A/C D/C Machine. Just wondering what's best.

[@charlielitz6395]

Thank you. That helps a lot

[@PaulSteMarie]

Well, *current* flows from positive to negative, but that's just a sign convention for "positive" and "negative" that was assigned long before electrons were discovered. In fact, it even predates electrical batteries and generators-the assignments were made back when the only electricity we could make was static electricity. The only people designing things that actually care about what you're calling "electron theory" are solid state physicists designing transistors and the old-timers who designed vacuum tubes.

[@John-gj9db]

So well explained. Thank you. BTW, some older British cars were positive Earth(ground) back in the dark ages when I was an apprentice 😅

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

I never knew cars could be. I know some tractors were lol. 6 volt positive ground tractors with a 6volt generator. A friend had a tractor like that. I believe his starter tried to crank in the wrong direction, it wouldn’t charge, and he couldn’t figure out what was going on when he hooked the new battery up assuming it was negative ground lol.

[@googlegok9637]

So AC stick like Buzzbox need more Amps to do the same weld as a DC machine? I have been running 6013 on DCEN (by mistake) didn't look that bad- Also by mistake did Tig DCEP , that is dangerous , the tungsten kind of exploded ;-)

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

When stick welding on a/c it tends to have less penetration than DC and it tends to need a bit more amperage. On a buzz box they typically have fixed transformer taps so going up one may be too much. On fully adjustable machines 5 amps more tends to help a bit. The bead will never be quite like DC with ac, the ac weld tends to have a bit more “peaked” of a weld profile.

[@gor4988]

Great explanation

[@FredMiller]

Fantastic explanation! I agree with a lot of the positive comments. (new subscriber)

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

Glad it helped you out 😀👍

[@594bolt]

If polarity is reversed in the 115v outlets in my garage, is that the same as welding with the polarity reversed on my welder? I just do hobby stuff and maybe patch a mower deck. The outlets have since been wired correctly.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

So if the polarity is reversed on an outlet I would assume most welders wouldn’t care. Since a/c I both positive and negative cycling 60 times per second, reversing the polarity wouldn’t change that. Certain devices may not function properly (the more electronics are in the welder the more likely it would have an issue). From a safety standpoint it could be an issue since the switch on a welder would complete the circuit, everything inside would be live even with the switch off.

[@594bolt]

@@makingmistakeswithgreg Ok, thank you.

[@9a3hp]

6013 work DCEN or AC . See on the package. You have polarity , possible working position. For any kind electrode. This depend of shielding materials. Mostly. DCEP have 70% energy is in electrode shielding material hold higer temperature so liquid metal from electrode spray to weld. DCEN most energy is in weld 70% and 30% in electrode but different material. 6013 have lower melting point. And with smaler temperature energy melt and fill up weld. Stick welding is or DCEN or DCEP or even AC but not all electrode can work on AC . People think stick welding is only DCEP or DCEN no. Depend of type electrode. +~ simbol mean electrode work DCEP and AC -~ simbol mean electrode work DCEN and AC 6013 is example. Some stick electrode cannot work AC at all. I am not invented nothing. Just read instruction for electrode what I used from many company. Stick electrode have designation and composition in all world same. Just read on the package. I long ago was welding. So I start with buzz box AC , after when tehnology evolve I switch on inverters machine. Pure DC.

[@olivertaylor4779]

Caution read the instructions on the box, Esab Goldrox (e6013 rutile-cellulose rod) are both DC+ DC- or AC, they are a good rod, I've used them on dcep.

[@9a3hp]

​@@olivertaylor4779 I always read and follow instruction. Böeler electrodes 6013 have designation on box -~ mean DCEN and AC

[@9a3hp]

I have chart from American Welding Society , about electrodes modern designation and type of currents AC , DC and polarity , charts is from 1946.

[@analogplanet9675]

The electrical arc is a plasma, consisting of both positive and negative ions. Electrons move toward positive and the ionized atoms move toward the negative electrode which takes most of the heat. This is because of the frequent collisions/scattering of the ions in the dense atmospheric gas prevents them from picking up significant enough velocity for the electrons to dominate the transfer of energy (as they do in sparse gas/near vacuum). The positive ions have much more similar mass to the metal atoms and more efficiently transfer their kinetic energy(especially heavy gas i.e. argon).

[@analogplanet9675]

Additionally: polarity effects the chemistry of welding processes. The ion soup gets separated to some degree by the electric field, with carburizing species tending to arrive at the negative electrode and oxygen ions arriving at the positive electrode. Oxygen ions cause the steel to burn up. This is factored in to flux composition chemistry and arc cutting processes.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

Thanks for sharing and I will be reading up on this in the upcoming coming days 😀

[@analogplanet9675]

Right on! Let us know if you find any good resources. I enjoyed your treatment of the topic. No shame in handwaving through the plasma physics a bit to focus on developing a practical workshop intuition. My comments are only one level deeper down the rabbit hole. Cheers!

[@richvh3961]

Awesome explanation , thank you !

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

No problem 😀👍

[@JustBadly]

I had to mig weld 0.5 mm steel and welded electrode negative. Like you say it was a high or balled weld but it didn't burn thru and after a grind the weld was narrow but strong enough for this exhaust. Electron theory explains why I had this result.

[@zeuzlida]

Thanks greg! Your turning me into a welding typa guy!

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

Glad to hear it 😀. The more you understand about welding the more you will understand about the world around you 😀

[@zeuzlida]

@@makingmistakeswithgreg very wise man!

[@AlwaysBored123]

So, if I understand correctly, electrons are negatively charged and carry most of the energy contained in the plasma of an electric welding arc. If electrons are directed towards the electrode (DCEP), all else being equal, the electrode will melt relatively rapidly because it has less surface area to dissipate the energy of the incoming electrons than the workpiece would if the polarity were opposite. This in turn results in a more aggressive arc as the thermal energy is ultimately transferred to the workpiece in a more concentrated and efficient manner? (via molten metal droplets that do not disperse like electrons would). Solid consumable electrodes (stick and hard wire MIG) are typically used with electrode positive for a more powerful arc and better penetration and fusion. Flux core self-shielding MIG is run electrode negative to avoid problems like arc blow, excessive spatter, burn back, etc owing to the fact the electrode has less metal than an equal volume of hard wire. TIG is typically run electrode negative simply because we do not want the electrode to melt at all. With an exception being made to weld aluminum alloys with AC to benefit from the cleaning properties of some electrode positive current. Excellent video about a poorly understood subject. I never even thought about it until I spent a day struggling to use self-shielding wire in a MIG welder that was still set on DCEP. I'd love to see a similar video about how plasma cutters work.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

It’s very common for people to not realize the polarity needs to be switched for Gasless flux core. On DCEP it produces a ton of spatter and doesn’t work right. Many mig welders have been sold as “not working” that simply had the wrong polarity setup on buss bars on the inside of the machine lol. You are correct on the polarity. I will also add that tig aluminum runs on A/c at about 70% EN 30% EP. It is possible to run about 50/50 EN/EP but you need a really big tungsten and the tip needs to be balled to work properly (so it handles the heat). MiG aluminum runs DCEP and the arc cleans the surface much like tig (oxide breaks up due to electrons).

[@Calligraphybooster]

Very well explained! That’s one mess sorted out😄.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

Thanks 😀👍

[@_hector__]

As I watched the video around the 2:37 minute mark it would have been a good idea to specify why you would make a low penetrating weld with DCEN with GMAW and SMAW because this could confuse others from minute 9:14 and onwards. On another note, I see many youtube comments claiming on how DCEP has deeper penetration than DCEN and how a pushing angle has more penetration than dragging from so called experienced old welders for some reason

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

DCEP penetration is a slippery slope. It does have deeper penetration depending on the circumstances. DCEP with stick tends to have more penetration than DCEN because DCEN produces a ropey bead that makes it tough to penetrate through. Yet TIG on DCEN has massively more penetration than welding with even a bit of EP on a/c. So it’s kind of a problem of what works for one process doesn’t for another. The push vs pull debate I did some testing on, and universally pulling with wire produces more penetration. However the weld looks like it would have less. I think 99% of that debate is people go by visual look to determine penetration and not actual cut&etches. Sure pushing is a flatter, hotter looking bead, but at the same settings it has less fusion than pulling. Which is weird because visually it’s opposite of what you would expect lol.

[@hu5116]

Hi. What you say is substantially true but a little clarification. As far as the flow of charge, it doesn’t matter if positive charges flow to the left, or negative charges to the right, when they are done moving the left side is going to be more positive than the right side and it’s this relative motion that we call current and which provides the power for circuits. For most circuits, you can talk about positive current (positive changes moving one way and negative current (negative charges I.e. electrons) moving the other way and they are the same. As long as you “define” current as the motion of positive charges, then you can do everything you need to do in circuits. However, in reality, what is really moving is electrons, but we don’t care (usually ) because we just talk about positive current going the other way from the electrons and it all works. Unfortunately back in the early days of electricity they did not know about electrons, and had they know this they likely would have defined the charge of an electron to be positive, and we would not be having this discussion. But they didn’t and so the positive charges current definition stuck. The problem is that there has been so much electronic technology made using the old definition, there is just no way one can just come in and say that now you are going to use the physics based definition. Imagine the confusion with circuits! There actually are a coupe books that use the electron current definition and the proponents are vocal about it, but there is too much inertia behind the original definition. So the only time you ever really need to worry about this is when electrons are freed from the wire of a circuit. Then you MUST think about it as an electron current. And guess what freeing electrons is what a welder does, and so we have to talk about electron current instead of positive current. Thanks!

[@be007]

is this theory the same with ac welding ? cheers ben

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

With A/c you have both EN and EP. The more EP the hotter the tungsten gets. This is why modern tig welders can weld on A/c with a pointed tungsten, and older transformers couldn’t. The older machines were fixed at 50/50 EN to EP so they put a ton of heat into the tungsten so having a point was impossible to have it not melt. At 70% EN 30% ep on a tungsten it will keep a point ok below 160amps. With stick welding a/c tends to produce less penetration than DCEP but the same or a bit more than EN.

[@be007]

@@makingmistakeswithgreg its clear now, thanks for the answer !

[@johneaston2293]

In pipeline welding with stick the procedure is positive electrode that is using 6010 for root and 7010 for fill but if you have a joint with a wide gap and the inspector is not looking if you switch poles you have a better chance of bridging the gap and the root not concave inside which would be a fail.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

No doubt a wide gap and 6010 is a tough spot to be in. I have never tried DCEN with 6010 but i bet it would do the same thing as everything else in the video. Even 10% less penetration might be enough to make a difference.

[@Nuf_Nivah]

Could you do a video on generator welders

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

I will in the future, but I currently don’t have one. From a functioning standpoint they offer higher duty cycles than typical welders and provide better ability to run rods like 6010. The smaller ones tend to be pretty weak generators but very good stick welders.

[@nicolasgiudizio5595]

So great video again, but funny thing. First of all, I'm not welding for a long time, too be clear. But I have run a ESAB OK 53.16 2,5mm (this is E7016) and the sticker on the package actually says this is preferred as DCEN.. and this is STICK welding. Actually the package says DCEN or AC .. any thoughts on that? greetings, love your channel..

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

So 7016 is run DCEN on specific circumstances. It’s primary polarity according to all the info I have is DCEP. I have heard guys welding on DCEN for pipe. It’s somewhat odd that they would list DCEN as the go to polarity.

[@nicolasgiudizio5595]

@@makingmistakeswithgreg ok.. Thanks for the (fast) reply m8. I'll try it on the positive and see what happens..

[@nraynaud]

We never talked of "electron theory", they just told us that when scientists started messing with primitive batteries (2 metals, some fabric and some salty water), they chose a side for positive (they basically only worked with voltage, but you can start a bit of theory, because you can start to sort metals by their ability to produce a voltage when used in a battery against another metal), and later when the electron was discovered, they realized that they needed to use a negative charge on it to explain its affinity to the positive side. so now we are stuck with a current that flows backwards to electrons. In semiconductors, when they conduct, the charge carrier can be either an electron, or a lack of electron (called a hole, it's litteraly a lack of electron going upstream). But holes are famously slowers than electrons (the mental model I have is that there is play in the system), so for power electronics, whe generally prefer transistors whose charge carriers are electrons, the performance is not perfectly symmetrical.

[@wayneknodel3347]

Excellent video, I learned a lot!

[@White.Elemant]

For the way my brain works, this is the only way I could ever memorize dcep and dcen and which to use for what 👏👏👏

[@tallyman15]

More great information. Maybe you can talk about balance on AC Tig. That might be good information for some folks.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

I did in a random video a while ago, but I will be doing it in depth as I do a whole series on tig welding (starting this weekend)

[@tallyman15]

@@makingmistakeswithgreg this is great! Looking forward to it

[@tommywise1702]

I think the HF self shielded wire welder is DCEP, and is not reversible. Sounded why they would manufacture such a machine?

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

If you’re talking about the black box unit, those output on A/c which is why they sound weird and have a lot of spatter. The green titanium 125 one outputs on DCEN which is why it actually welds the way it should lol. No wire out there is designed to run on a/c and only dual shield and hardwire is designed to run on DCEP.

[@MikeBaca-rs8ij]

Hey when out in the field when wedding really pipe you wind the ground cable around the pipe 7018 so the bead would stick to the pipe surface

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

That works and the general reason is the pipe becomes magnetized (either has residual magnetism or becomes magnetized) during welding. Wrapping the coil of wire helps cancel the magnetism out and reduces arc wandering to help avoid weld defects 😀👍.

[@hillcountrylivin]

This is very well explained

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

Thanks 😀👍. It definitely was confusing to me when I first learned to weld and everything the instructor said was opposite of what I was taught. Turns out the welding end of things is actually more correct than conventional current, it’s just that in simple circuits it doesn’t matter.

[@freemanjackmsiradio]

Taken a scroll through the comments and not seen it mentioned but have you considered that electron flow is only half of the story, positively charged ions going the other way are how the metal is actually deposited, being the mig wire or arc stick never actually contacts the work, it is vaporised and deposited via the plasma of the arc. Tig is simply an arc flame and the wire is introduced as a solid wire.

[@zapszapper9105]

So normally Mig and Stick is DCEP and Tig is DCEN, also DCEP produces a wide ark while DCEN produces a narrow ark, In stick welding DCEP, the ionised steel atoms in the ark are positively charged (since they have lost an electron or two) so they will go from the stick to the negatively charged work piece, that is the same direction as conventional current flow Positive to negative. Straight polarity means DCEM and Reverse polarity means DCEP, because it is referring to electron drift/flow. I just needed to write this summary.

[@chuckcrizer]

In so glad my Navy Electronics Training used Electron Flow instead of conventional current flow.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

Glad to hear they did. What’s baffling to me is how conventional current is commonly taught and not electron flow. It’s one thing to say “we to it this way because it’s tradition” and another thing entirely to omit any explanation of electron flow.

[@markconley9279]

Why is DCEP work better for aluminum in TIG welding?

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

So aluminum has a surface oxide that can’t be easily removed by sanding or chemicals. It’s very hard (aluminum oxide is actually used in sandpaper) and it must be stripped from the surface or the weld pool will be poor. That oxide melts at a higher temp than the base material which is also a huge problem. Think of pond scum floating on a fish tank and that’s exactly what happens when trying to weld aluminum with tig on pure DCEN. The material under the surface will melt but the surface is just floating full of contaminates. To deal with breaking the oxide layer up there are a few options. 1) to weld it on a/c and when the cycle switches to EP the electrons jumping from the base material to tungsten break up the surface oxide. 2) use helium and DC, the helium combined with higher voltage strips the surface oxide off making it possible to weld the aluminum on straight DC. So conventional tig welding of aluminum is done on a/c with 70-75% of the ac wave being negative (or electrode negative, or penetration) and 25-30% positive (electrode positive, or cleaning action). This gives enough cleaning action to break up the oxide layer, and provides a clean molten puddle. Older transformer machines weld on 50/50 EN to EP, and that’s less desirable. The more electrode positive you have the hotter the tungsten gets and the less penetration you have.

[@georgiojansen7758]

my dc welder selco 250tlh ,can do dcep max50amp according to the manual, watercooled preferably , also it can do argon/co2 gas

[@thomasallbee52]

Very well done

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

Thanks 😀👍

[@miceskin]

Close but no cigar, the flow you're refering to is the front wave of the electric field. The actual drift velocity of the electrons is not what provides the heat.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

According to miller electric they state “DCEN electrodes flow from the tungsten to the work. A combination of the kinetic energy from the impact of electrons and the hot plasma gas are responsible for heating and melting the base material. In DCEP the tungsten receives primary electron flow, and the bombardment of electrons causes heating of the tungsten”. They also mention to some effect there is a cooling effect on the tungsten via electrons flowing through it on DCEN. The same thing that is talked about by miller is also talked about in a few books I have, “such as metals and how to weld them”

[@georgiojansen7758]

i weld stick dcen or dcep ,depends, mostly dcen for pipe

[@bmalovic]

Interesting... I remember that back in 8-th grade of elementary school (some late 70's), when we first met with electric current in phisics classs all of this was explaned. Terminology was "technical" and "phisical" dirrection of current.

[@AWDJRforYouTube]

My favorite welding polarity is AC with Hi Freq lol!

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

If you’re talking tig that is a very good polarity lol.

[@jamestregler1584]

There is a disturbance in the ARC Luke ! 😝

[@TheDesertRat31]

So if I wanted to write something on the surface of a work piece, like a label or something,(or for a decorative reason) with a mig gun, I could switch to DCEN, because it will be mire raised up and not as wide.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

Interesting question. I bet the writing would be way high and have virtually no penetration. The beads I’ll literally sit like caulk on the plates. So I think that wold work for what you’re looking at 😀👍

[@rodwright225]

Oxy-act polarity , good one 😎👍👍

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

I guess if you found a way to thread the hoses on backwards you could have a “reverse” hookup 😅. Whatever happened wouldn’t be good lol.

[@rodwright225]

@@makingmistakeswithgreg good point lol

[@glasslinger]

Very nice explanation. Better than the complicated hokey poke given us by the dum-dum in school!

[@InssiAjaton]

I think the polarity was defined by observation in material flow, and thereby ion behavior in electroplating. That was observable before the charge transfer in gas or solid. A Coulomb, anybody?

[@JuhaLaiho]

Thanks, subscribed.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

No problem. Hopefully the video shed some light on the confusing issue with polarity. I made a part two that’s out tonight, to clarify some things in the first video as well as give cut and etches to show the differences.

[@FurtiveSkeptical]

I was always taught the electrons "pushed" from the negative and "sunk" into the positive on a 12V battery 🤔??

[@Boodieman72]

In England they teach electron theory, I never heard of "conventional current theory". If you look at the chemical reactions in the battery it makes sense.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

Yeah it’s weird thing over here 😅. Especially because conventional current is so well known here that it’s difficult to understand anything that doesn’t use it. Electricity is one of those things where the more sure you are on it the more wrong you probably are lol. So much rests on what you’re trying to do with it and less on hard rules. Even the comments to this video clarified a ton of things I was unaware of or didn’t know. I still wish they would have changed to electron theory in this country but at this point it’s pretty much set in stone.

[@Boodieman72]

@@makingmistakeswithgreg They should teach chemistry before electricity then it would be easy to understand why electron theory is correct. Of course the rest of the world (99.9%) use the metric system so it's no surprise Americans do things err differently. Then there are technical flow charts where ground isn't ground but rather a reference point.

[@Drottninggatan2017]

This is not true. You read on the outside of the box of your electrodes what polarity to use. Electrode positive or electrode negative. Basic electrodes normally connect to positive, and rutile electrodes normally connect to negative, many times they can be used either way depending on what kind of penetration you need. Connecting the electrode to negative makes a better penetration in the material. Some electrodes can even be used positive, negative or AC (alternating current).

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

You must be outside of the USA. Here, there are no rods that are specifically designed to weld on DCEN. There are rods that will run DCEN (like 6013,7014,etc) but they are not marketed as the primary polarity being DCEN. In the US we don’t use 6013 for much, but we don’t have access to multiple 6013 rod types. For whatever reason we went the 6010-6011 route over multiple types of 6013. As far as penetration, DCEN lowers penetration vs DCEP with stick and especially mig. A pure DCEN arc (like tig) penetrates more than a DCEP arc, but not with stick welding. I made a video that demonstrates this with a cut and etch that will be out in a day. The phenomenon of EP having more penetration than En is well documented. There is a multitude of reasons why, but the primary one being how the bead ropes up and the arc has to penetrate more weld metal with EN vs EP.

[@Drottninggatan2017]

@@makingmistakeswithgreg It appears as there are differences by region. Here in the old world we read off the box what is recommended for polarity and current, and then anyone can do as they like. We find texts like this (translated): "When welding with direct current, with most electrode types, the minus pole is connected to the electrode and the plus pole to the workpiece. An exception is the basic electrodes. They are better welded towards the positive pole. The same applies to certain makes of cellulose electrodes."

[@9a3hp]

I agree, we in Europe have on any box signs +~ mean DCEP and AC -~ mean DCEN and AC Not all electrode can work on AC So yes we have polaryti design electrode. I can take photo of box electrode from multiple factory. Boeler , and some less known name. In Europe we have clear designation for any electrode, polariti, working position. And materials. On any single box. No way to make confuse.

[@alanremington8500]

...and thank you !!

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

No problem 😀👍

[@shanerorko8076]

I'm getting the sense that 1:45 in he's just going to take 25 minutes to tell us electrons flow the opposite direction.

[@deltab9768]

I always thought it was weird that in stick welding the correct and normal polarity was called “reverse.” I like your explanation that it’s the direction of electron flow!

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

It confused me when I was in school to learn to weld, it made no sense as to why “straight polarity” is what few processes used. The instructors offered little explanation. It makes sense when the context of what they are using to determine that is known, otherwise it’s kind of “that’s just how it is” lol.