Introduction to spray arc welding

[@garthland]

very interesting,Greg! Funny how some of us weld and fab all day then come home and watch other people weld- lol

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

Haha I tend to do the same. I like welding, it’s the prep work that sucks 😅.

[@larryvollmar8763]

I do the same. My wife makes fun of me lol. I’m temporarily in western Wisconsin and this snow is crazy!! Welding out in this is fun 🤦🏻‍♂️

[@williep6007]

⁠how’s this welder holding up have u had any issues with it

[@Fogyt121]

Last place I worked at used mainly short arc for everything. I then pointed out the obvious lack of fusion on thick plate when I had to extend a column, by welding another piece to its bottom footplate with stick and had the whole plate separate from the mig fillet. Boss wasn't too impressed, but I said I can probably fix it. Took a look at the machines, one could hold 25,5 volts at 230 amps, just barely enough for spray. Had the boss order a bottle of 92/8. Did some test plates, got the settings right, never had a fillet weld tear away ever again. When I left they were still scratching their heads how I fixed it.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

Sounds like you had some common sense for sure lol. It’s crazy to think people (and companies) don’t realize how limiting short arc can be. The fact that you knew enough to do some tests to get it dialed in, and the success you had, shows you knew what you were doing. I am sort of in a similar situation right now. I took some work for a local place to fix a ton of equipment. I showed up and they have a miller 355 mig machine, which definitely has some horsepower. However there isn’t a single bottle of any mig mix besides c25 and trimix for stainless in the place. They have atleast 30 tanks lol. They have been weld repairing everything with that welder in short circuit mode clearly. Not a lot of failures but I have seen a lot of really bad welds on 1/4 to 1/2in thick lol.

[@Fogyt121]

@@makingmistakeswithgreg It always escapes me how they just won't use a fat 7018 with a good stick machine for thick plate and tubing. Yes, it's slower than mig/mag. It's also much cheaper and easier to set right. I think even some dualshield fluxcore runs with C25 gas, why won't they use that is beyond me.

[@psilocin6739]

As a home gamer using smaw and fcaw on a 140a machine, I've never encountered spray arc or globular transfer modes and I learned a lot from this video. I really find the science/theory of welding interesting, thanks for taking the time to explain it all in a way a noob like myself can understand.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

No problem 😀. Spray welding really gives wire welding the performance to weld thick material. It will actually outperform stick welding in many cases. It’s just unfortunate it’s not possible to do it without a decent investment in equipment. For most people the drawbacks far outweigh the positives. Luckily there are far more affordable ways to weld thicker steel (such as stick or tig) 😀.

[@freezerburn04]

Holy smoke Mr Cameraman/ Welder/ Professor that was phuking awesome! Thanks a ton!

[@bruced1429]

Another great video Greg, this certainly helps those who never had the chance to do spray mig. I have 2 welders which will do spray and one of those does pulse spray. Pulse spray is the way to go as you can weld thin material without burn through. I have a HTP Pro Pulse 220 and it does pulse and double pulse on aluminum. I found that their syn programs are set for 030 wire in spray but if you turn the trim up 3- 5 volts it will spray 035 wire. Same as for pulse. Pulse spray works up and down no problem , I have not done overhead and not likely to so I can't say how it works. HTP had these welders on sale a month or so ago for $ 1999.00 now they are $2199.00 so they might be in the range for some guys. Some guys run spray straight into a fillet weld ,I found that a slight washing up and down gives a more even penatration and a push angle, maybe you could test a fillet weld with push and pull and washing up and down of the weld to see if there is a significant difference. I thing Everlast has a pulse spray welder at about the same price, made in China where the HTP is made in Italy.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

That HTP is a really nice welder. They are about a hour from me and I have been to their store. I actually buy all my tig setups from them. Pulse is definitely the way to go with spray, it gives the best ability with wire welding in my opinion. The price is more than reasonable considering the capability. Especially considering many 200amp mig machines are in the 1,000$ range commonly now. If a person is going to weld thicker material, higher production values, or just wants flat out better performance the price increase is well worth it.

[@garysgarage101]

I owned both welders you mention here (HTP Pro pulse 220 and the Everlast 253DP). Both did a great job at pulse and double pulse welding. I didn’t like the interfaces of either welders. The Everlast was a bit more difficult to setup, the HTP menu was lacking in pre-programmed settings and wasn’t all that great in my opinion. I think what Miller has done with their digital interfaces is much better. The new digital interfaces coming out with the Everlast welders are great however.

[@mkearn724]

Great video like always Greg! Your ability to share your knowledge is outstanding. I always enjoy the content, and look forward to what’s next.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

Thanks for the kind words 😀

[@joeg7755]

Excellent video. Looking forward to your continuation of spray welding series. I hope you will have a chance do some other wire types with spray, like flux core and flux core with gas and demonstrate/compared to regular wire spray arc. Have a wonderful Easter weekend and thanks for the presentation.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

You also have a great Easter weekend 😀. I will be revisiting dual shield in .045 as well, and I will do a comparison between all of them 😀

[@ls2005019227]

Excellent video & information Greg! While I do have a capable machine, I've never used it for spray; mostly due to not having the appropriate gas. Hopefully, this leads us back into dual shield..... looking forward to learning more about that. Thanks!

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

I will definitely be doing dual shield, I have a few wires to try and I should have better results 😀

[@johndoe43]

Good warning about getting too close. Blistered my knuckles and wound up with blood poisoning. Learned to stay back. Some guns have a metal shield that really helps.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

Man that sounds bad 😮. Definitely have blistered my knuckles, never got blood poisoning. It’s crazy how fast you can blister knuckles when you’re running amperage above 180a. The last time I smoked my knuckle it somehow 190a with flux core wire (it was with the tweco 180 in the video). The extra distance of the spray master gun on the rebel 235 makes a huge difference in heat.

[@joesteffens613]

I learned quite a bit just now. I’ve heard the term spray arch before but didn’t really know what it meant till now. Great info, I understand those processes a little better now. Thanks.

[@psilocin6739]

Same here, I learned how to weld here on KZbin last year and haven't come across a video that explains what spray arc is. I can't reach the settings needed for spray but I find this kind of stuff really interesting.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

Yeah it’s basically just a different gas mixture and hotter settings in a nutshell. It’s pretty uncommon for people at home to use the process because many welders won’t run it and most people don’t weld thick enough stuff to need it. I won’t do much of it myself, the main benefit of speed isn’t very beneficial since I do a lot of repair work on sub par material in things other than flat position lol. For the average person spray won’t have much in the way of advantages.

[@CALDues]

I work on aluminum die cast dies rebuilding the casting surface and machining back to print. We normally use a stainless filler (for use on H13 steel) with TIG which can be time consuming. The company set up a wire machine for spray but either nobody could run it properly or it wasn't set up correctly gas/etc. When machining we would cut through the excess buildup then it would peal off like foil. I'll take a look next time I'm over there to see how it's set up because if it's something easy to fix (gas) it would take away one of the bottlenecks in the repair process. 😊 Love your stuff Greg, thanks a million for continuing to cover EVERYTHING about welding.👊

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

So stainless mig wire is a confusing bastard because it’s very easy to do the wrong thing. I have never done spray with stainless wire, I used short circuit. With short circuit the correct gas mixture is tri-mix (helium/argon/co2) which is expensive. When you use many other shielding gases with stainless wire you can have a bad lack of fusion problem (like straight argon is really bad). C25 tends to produce tall ropey stainless beads. The corrosion resistance can also be suspect when using gasses other than trimix, I believe it has to do with the reaction of high percentages of c02 in normal mig gasses. From a spray perspective it appears 98-2 (argon/oxygen) should be used (I have never spray welded stainless by that’s what my chart says). According to a couple books I have with metals, h13 has some interesting properties that can make it a pain to weld. It needs a 800-1000 degree preheat, 700 degree interpass temp (temp should not drop below 700 degrees during welding) l, when done air cool it to 150 degrees, and then to temper it at a temperature just below its original temper, which apparently could be as high as 1100. What may be going on with it peeling off is the weld metal literally cracked off the base material. This is very common if the weld solidifies too fast. The preheat is to prevent excessive fast shrinking of the material.

[@mike-yp1uk]

I weld the exhaust pipe mostly but it is good to understand that welding needs more than one method of delivery. I must just get in and experience it for myself thru some practice welding. Great video material

[@Ryansroga-wm6pj]

Great explanation thanks for sharing

[@Mosa-166]

I never used spray mode! Thank you for explaining. Great video!🙏

[@adsaccuracy]

Well described and right what you said.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

Thanks 😀

[@43dukedog]

I spray arc every day at work for gooseneck and 5 th wheel hitches rated at 30,000 lbs. welding different thickness of mild steel with .035 at 26.2 volts and 550 wire speed with a 250 amp Lincoln . Welds great never had any issues .

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

Good to hear 😀. Spray is definitely the way to go with wire welding. It’s just too bad most mig machines sold can’t spray and many people aren’t familiar with it. Its capabilities puts it in another league compared to stick when manufacturing is concerned.

[@johnmacmillan627]

Thx Greg, makes perfect sense.

[@fastbusiness]

Thanks for another excellent video. I've been following along with your instructions since the beginning and have improved my welding a lot. Spray arc is out of my league, but if I ever have the opportunity to use it, it is good to have some knowledge of its pros and cons.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

Glad to hear you have been around for a while 😀. Spray is definitely fast, hot, and efficient. I don’t do use it much simply because for repair work it’s not that practical. For the average person the practicality of stick and normal mig does everything needed. It’s always fun to play around with processes you don’t commonly use 😀

[@GustavoCastillaEtherDreams]

Thank you for the must usefull explanation and comparison, keep them coming

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

No problem 😀. Knowledge is power 😀

[@Richard-Freeman]

Greg, would you consider doing a video on stitch vs full length welding? When which is best etc. Having a hard time finding any good info on it.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

You’re talking about doing a back and forth movement with mig as you’re welding? If you use appropriate settings a stick movement won’t do much negative to the weld because the molten pool stays hot enough. If the settings are reduced to make a more distinct look of dimes while stitching, you would lose performance. I will do a video testing this in the future 😀.

[@Richard-Freeman]

@@makingmistakeswithgreg No, I meant like a 3in weld every 12in on center. Maybe I got the name for it wrong.

[@jondavidmcnabb]

Damn good video! Solid evidence and good cut and etch.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

In part two where I went a bunch of tests the difference is significant. It sucks that you really need a pretty powerful welder and a different gas mixture than standard to achieve such performance. For thicker steel it’s 100% worth it.

[@wxdave5448]

Thanks for this Greg. I’ve always wanted to try spray. My welder can do it (275A up to 30V) and I have 36 series torch. I’ve just not had the need so far but your video will likely get me to try it. Duel shield is not recommended for mine so that’s not an option.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

Dual shield will run with less parameters than spray, however I can tell you .035 dual shield is pretty useless on anything 1/4in and over (no penetration). .045 dual shield works better on 1/4 in material, but many welders don’t have liners or rollers available for .045 wire. Maybe that is why they don’t recommend it for your welder. With that said if you give .035 wire spray a shot it will give you a lot of capability on 1/4in + steel. It’s about 2x as fast as short arc, less spatter, less cleanup, and far more penetration. Just watch for blisters lol.

[@michaelwhiting878]

I looked into getting a bottle of C10, but our local gas distributors only carry it in a 300cuft cylinder, and is cost prohibitive. Is there another mix that will work well enough to get a decent weld without breaking the Bank or your Back?

[@williamdavis4511]

Was just spraying the wire today, seems others don't know what it's about...miller 350 p

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

350p is a great machine, definitely has some horsepower. At my work I run a suitcase feeder on a 350xmt. Not much spray though, flux core and dual shield mostly.

[@johnmacmillan627]

Another great video, Greg. Thanks! Of course, I always have a question and this one pertains to mig spray arc aluminum welding on 1/4 and less. I have a Yeswelder 211 p that pulse welds. There is no question regarding its ability to obtain a spray arc at voltages under 24v using 100% argon.. is this possible because the wire used is low melting aluminum wire?

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

So aluminum requires less heat to turn to liquid so less voltage/amperage is generally required to melt it. However it also conducts heat very well so it takes a lot of heat to weld say aluminum plates together. The wire itself doesn’t have enough mass to aid in heat dissipation so it melts fairly easy, if that makes sense.

[@melgross]

Yes, you need a bigger welder with aluminum thickness to thickness. That’s why helium mixes are used there often. I find, generally, that I need about 20% more amperage for aluminum.

[@johnmacmillan627]

Great answers. Thx

[@survivor1014]

I occasionally use globular at work using C10 gas on a miller deltaweld 302. It is tricky but it is doable.

[@donsmith9081]

Unbeknownst to me i have been doing Globular transfer on thicker material. It would have been spray with different gas.

[@repairfreak]

Hello my friend, interesting that you would do a video on the spray arc GSAW process, I was just researching what is necessary to run the process. When younger and in my welder career, I did spray often for fast and deep penetration welds in a production environment. I always loved the cool hissing noise, and massive heat input, not to mention speed of travel to get welds done fast. Last time I welded with spray I was using a Miller 450E machine, and .045 solid core wire (50lb spool) at about 32-34V. I always wondered if my Hobart handler 190 could achieve spray with .035 solid and 90/10 or other gases that have a bit of O2. I’m thinking not because the voltage just isn’t high enough, amperage on edge of, and maybe not even a fast enough wire feeder setting. Makes me want to check my wire voltage with my machine balls out with volt meter at no wire drive speed for a general idea. My next welder I get hopefully will be a multi process Inverter type machine, one with with Stick, Mig, Tig capability, and with pulse capability as well. This kind of machine looks like it will set me back about 4500 dollars min also, not including gas, wire etc. Have a blessed Resurrection Day my friend, keep up the quality work with your channel. ✌️😎👍

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

So that 190 is capable of about 22.5v at 180amps of output according to its volt/amp curve. It would likely achieve “globular” transfer and that with 100% co2, but it would not be able to hit spray. I wish more machines were capable of spray, it would give a lot more capability.

[@repairfreak]

@@makingmistakeswithgreg Thank for saving me the trouble of measuring the voltage. I did find this interesting data. However I believe be said 23V was absolute min drive.google.com/file/d/1_UC5jNsTpyw0zeSzoTi3BAlsYnduoEac/view?usp=drivesdk

[@engjds]

I saw a guy fix a very large bulldozer crack using just MIG, the steel thickness around 5", he seemed to be using short circuit with the bead looking like dimes?, should he really have been using Stick or Spray for material of that thickness to ensure penetration?

[@jojobarwick]

Love to hear your thoughts on pulse

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

So pulse works great because it allows you to run oddball angles and vertical up far easier than short circuit. It also has better penetration than short circuit. Proper pulse is basically a modified version of spray transfer that can be run out of position. Less spatter too. The main limit to pulse is having a machine that can do it, and on the low end (aka sub 250amp welders) its ability to weld thicker steel is still limited.

[@michaelbigelow367]

Hi Greg! Thanks very much for this great video. It answered a lot of questions for me. I'm new to your channel so just seeing this now. I would like your opinion on the use of the suitcase units. I have a LN25 I run off my Ranger 300DLX and would love your opinion on it and how it would compare to the spray arc. I know it is capable of spray arc. I used the miller suitcase with a company I worked for used flux core on piling. I hope to us my machine in surtane application.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

So that setup would have no issue running spray, the engine drive units are capable of more than enough voltage and have a bottomless pit of amperage to work with. I use a suitcase feeder at work running on a 400amp power source (miller). It works exceptionally well and would basically work the same as if it was on a generator. The main benefit if you were to switch to spray is you can get much more metal deposition. The higher deposition is due to wire feed speeds and the lack of spatter (spatter is lost metal). You also gain more penetration, faster travel speeds, and flatter weld profiles. The drawbacks are mostly inability to run out of position without pulse and based on my experience it can be tough to get spray to work on less than clean material. Spray actually has more penetration than dual shield in many cases but dual shield is far less likely to have porosity welding on less than perfect material.

[@michaelbigelow367]

@makingmistakeswithgreg ok good to hear your opinion. I value it and appreciate your channel. What I like about your channel is how you cover the different processes and where they are best suited. I have a millermatic 255 in my shop and the LN25 that I run off my engine drive. I like hearing other welders' opinions on the welding options these machines have.

[@kevin-pk6hd]

For the begginner home shop it seems like a short circuit mig machine + a basic stick welder would be the way to go. Would love to see Tig compared in the same way

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

I will be doing a comparison between the welding processes soon. I agree with you on the stick and short circuit machine being a solid combo. It gives the ability to weld thicker steel and super thin as well. Spray weldings main benefits of speed and metal deposition are mostly benefits for production work. The penetration is a nice bonus, but there are ways to get that without going to spray. It’s unfortunate that to get spray level performance you need a pretty expensive setup to handle it. Far more economical to go with stick, especially for non production focused home shops.

[@kevin-pk6hd]

@@makingmistakeswithgreg while I not be able to do it at home I'm 100% going to try it at work next time we have a slow day. Thanks again for sharing so much knowledge, it's greatly improved my welds overall

[@slowb4lls1]

Loving your 3 month comparison of them high end welding hoods tho.

[@BILL-sb5kk]

I have a LINCOLN WELD PAK 140 MIG WELDER. Is my welder considered a home hobby welder ??

[@Letsberealish]

Yes, that's what it's intended for. It's a nice machine. I prefer Lincoln whenever possible.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

The weld pack 140 is a home hobby type machine, but it’s far better than an Amazon special. Those weld pack 140s weld really good and are very capable of welding stuff 😀

[@donsmith9081]

@@makingmistakeswithgreg You can get better penetration using flux core wire.

[@petar443]

Hello Greg. On 6mm to 6mm carbon steel outside corner which is better : mig Short Arc with wire size 0.23(0.6mm) multipass or stick with 2.5 mm Dcep 6013 the root pass and then build with 2.5mm 7018. I use stringer bead technique. 6010 is out of the question because my stick machine is cheap and doesnt like it. And Doesnt have 6011 in my country.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

So that’s a bit of a tough call. If there is minimal to no gap I would use 7018 start to finish. 6013 (to me) is a harder rod to run on a outside corner, and tends to have the same or less penetration as 7018. MiG is perfectly capable of welding 6mm steel, but with .035 wire. I would think both 6013 and 7018 would have better fusion than .023 wire, it would be tough to get sidewall fusion with .023 due to the lower amperage it runs at. The strongest weld would be found with er70 MiG or 7018, provided you can get the fusion.

[@andymoyer8797]

Hello Greg. After using the ESAB 235, do you think this machine & the ESAB 285 are on par with the Miller 235 & 255? Have a great day and thank you for your great content.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

Great question. So the esab 235 vs the miller 235 I would say the esab 235 is far superior. The esab will run 6010 rods, the miller won’t. The esab is capable of 235 amp at 26 volt at 40% duty cycle, the miller is 170a 22.5 at 60% duty cycle. That would put it somewhere around 200-210 at 24-25v for 40%, significantly less than the esab. The esab is easier to carry around, has a better display, and will handle less then perfect conditions (like welding outside) better. When it comes to the 255 vs esab 285 that’s a harder decision. The 255 does spray pulse, which the esab doesn’t. Both run 6010, both have high outputs at high duty cycles (edge likely to the esab on duty cycle). Between those two I would probably go with the 255 to get pulse. I can tell you that the miller 255 has had a less than stellar reliability. I am not sure what the deal is, but a bunch of 250 amp class machines have had terrible reliability. The Lincoln 260 was really bad, the miller 255 had a ton of problems, and a few other machines as well. Esab has proven to be very reliable in the 235 and down machines, the 285 is fairly uncommon in shops. I personally use a 355 miller at work and that has had zero issues but it wasn’t known to have issues like the 255 had. I do believe in Esabs products which puts me the odd man out since virtually all the shops/places I go are miller or Lincoln. I believe what Esab does that those two don’t is they make machines that handle rough environments better, they are more portable, lighter, and they focus more of stick welding than miller and Lincoln. Up until recently millers 4k$ 220 ac/dc machine couldn’t even run 6010. For me Esabs machines just fit what I need better which is why I have owned a bunch of them and still own the 235 rebel and rogue 200.

[@andymoyer8797]

@@makingmistakeswithgreg Hey Greg. WOW!!!! The information that you gave is exactly what I needed. But I am more impressed with the time that you took in responding to my question!! You really care about us welding DYI'ers out there trying to figure things out!! THANK YOU!! Have a great day!

[@tsl7881]

I guess three years ago i picked out the Everlast 211 over the Vulcan 220. The everlast has 210A @40%, the Vulcan is 200 @ 25% the eeverlast also hit 100A stick on 120V. The vulcan hits ??.?V (incomplete specs from HF) the everlast 24.5V GMAW voltage. If I had got the everlast's big brother the 251 it would spray( 26.5V )and pulse. But heck, they were telling me I would need to buy a special mix for it to work. You're at $350 per bottle and I was counting three bottles. So maybe I could try FCAW-S.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

You bring up one of the major points with the cost of mig that nobody sees coming: bottle costs. To have a mig welder that’s capable of welding steel, stainless, spray arc, and aluminum you need 4 gas bottles (c25, tri mix, c10, argon). That’s a huge expense that doesn’t exist with tig or stick. The other issue is many suppliers don’t sell c10 or other spray mixes in anything less than a big bottle, which can cost over 400$. Definitely a tough situation to find solutions for. To get the best performance on thicker steel there are 3 options really. 1: spray with c10 or a different spray blend, 2: run dual shield in .045 (or bigger) with common c25 gas, or 3: run big self shielded Gasless flux core. Option 1 costs a lot due to the gas bottle issue. Option 2 uses gas you have and gives you better performance on thicker steel than short circuit, the downside to this is tons of smoke and the root fusion isn’t as good as spray. Option 3 requires .045 or bigger self shielded wire. If you use .035 wire and weld thicker than 1/4in you will have internal weld porosity. You need bigger wire and more amperage to get proper results. Many self shielded wires produce fairly brittle welds, so the actual strength of the finished weld may not be inline with spray or dual shield. For many people looking to get really solid welds on 1/4in and up steel, without the cost of additional bottles, .045 or slightly bigger dual shield wire is the way to go. That’s provided they have the machine power to run it. When you get into dual shield and spray it literally solves all the issues wire welding has on thick plate and really makes a world of difference.

[@kristiantjomsland7745]

What can you expect from globular transfer? Apart from spatter, will the penetration and strength be equivalent to spray transfer? If you occasionally need to weld thick materials, perhaps it could be an affordable alternative to spray?

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

So globular makes a ton of sparks/spatter, the metal deposition is pretty poor, but the penetration is higher than short circuit. C25 or 100% co2 will cause the wire to switch to globular at or around 22-23v. The limitation is the welder used. Many mig machines can hit 23v just not at 180-200a of output. I will be testing 100% co2 vs c25 soon. I have a feeling 100% co2 will perform better in penetration than c25, but it generally requires more voltage, which may not be available depending on machine. Most of the time it’s 1-1.5v over c25 settings.

[@kristiantjomsland7745]

@@makingmistakeswithgreg Ok, please test both short circit and globular :)

[@The_Seal77]

Awesome video, just one question, can push and pull with spray like short circuit?

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

You definitely can do either. I will do a comparison video between the two to see how it performs. I would assume pull will have slightly better performance than push. In the video I pulled and the bead was far flatter than the short circuit weld that was pulled, due to the higher voltage.

[@jonathanpersson1205]

Ive done some spray welding with way higher voltage and way lower wire feed than you are using on plate over 1/4". .35 wire 32 volts 185 inches/min push welding. It runs smoothly and the weld looks nice but I have to be careful not to melt the plate its better on heavier than 1/4" Ive never cut and etched or broken a weld.Im entirely self taught so I could be doing some dumb stuff any comments? PS after watching a few of your videos Im going to try switching to pull welding, for short arc. Looking forward to a push pull comparison with spray welding. I do wonder how push welding at a higher voltage but the same wire speed would compare with pull welding for weld strength on short circuit welding. The only reason I push weld is because someone told me thats how you are supposed to mig weld when I first started mig welding.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

Depending on what welder you have your voltage may be off from the setupoint. Based on 32v 185 you should have an arc that exists between the contact tip and the molten pool and the wire should be liquid at the contact tip (likely fusing to the tip itself). Spray arc basically exists anytime the wire is no longer a solid wire (or globs) and more or less sprays across an arc that’s present. It can be achieved at 23-24v and up provided the gas mixtures allows for it to happen. The higher the co2 content the more voltage it takes to enter spray. From a strength perspective I believe a pull angle will produce more penetration than push with spray. The major difference between spray and short circuit is spray will produce a flat weld with pulling, short circuit produces a convex weld. A pull spray weld more or less looks like a push short circuit. The profile of a flatter weld is more ideal (I think) because there is less of a chance of poor fusion at the weld toes, and it likely distributes a load better when the weld is stressed.

[@MNation69]

We used to run spray on 1/16" and 3/32" material back at my old shop. It wasn't about penetration, it was about how fast can you get this piece done. It was extremely unforgiving.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

I bet that was a challenge. You’re talking some super fast travel speeds lol. Considering spray can melt through 3/16th plate fairly easy (and produce undesirable weld defects due to heat input) it would take far more skill (and be far harder) on thin material like that. One “blip” of a mistake and you have some weld defects to fix lol.

[@mike-yp1uk]

Can the Eastwood mp250i spray. I bought it after watching KZbin welding videos. It mig, tigs and stick welds

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

So I looked up the specs, Eastwood did a nice job on labeling what it would do. It appears it’s capable of 26.5v which would be enough to spray with .035 wire between 200-220amps. So on face value it should do it 👍

[@theseldomseenkid6251]

Cutting Edge Engineering recent videos on the Franna Crane Project have a significant amount of spray arc footage. I assume it's pulse since there are overhead and out of position welding on thick plate.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

I will have to check it out. If it’s spray (and not dual shield) and it was run out of position it definitely would be pulse. That guy/channel is awesome no doubt.

[@theseldomseenkid6251]

@makingmistakeswithgreg Note: I could be totally wrong about the process. I have never seen spray arc in person. Please let me know if I am incorrect.

[@Mark-079er]

Greg, just wanted to know what gas you used for the spray? 95/5 98/2 ?? thx and great video as usual.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

90-10 argon/co2 (c10)

[@nealesmith1873]

Very interesting! I’m surprised that does not just blow through the 1/4 plate.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

At higher settings and different gas blends spray would definitely fully penetrate 1/4in steel. Even at lower settings and common c10 gas blends it’s pretty impressive. It’s too bad an average mig machine isn’t capable of running spray, it makes quick work of thicker steel.

[@googlegok9637]

are you going straight in , or an angel on the gun? hard to see on the video. Our local large metal fabricator is using C18 for spray and short circuit. Often been thinking using a Y mixer between CO2 and argon to play with different mix . Just not sure a Y will do sufficient mixing? happy Easter.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

I had a slight pull angle for the welds. Technically you can push or pull. The benefit to pull is it should increase penetration like pulling with short circuit does. Due to the high voltage the weld is far flatter pulling with spray than short circuit. As far as gas mixing goes, you could set it up to flow from two bottles with a y connector. The issue with that is you could run into consistency issues as the bottles deplete I would think. With spray a small increase in c02 will prevent spray from happening (c25 won’t spray but c15 would). Any variation in the gas mixture will have a significant change the the arc. If decent flow meters are used and the bottles are at decent pressures it should work.

[@44hawk28]

Remember that in order to maintain a plasma stream and spray arc, and even in globular, you must have at least 80% Argonne in your shielding gas. I usually keep it just above 90%. You cannot spray arc with less than 80% it's not even recommended to do it at that concentration.

[@charliehuntsman9827]

Do you think the Primeweld 285 would handle spray arc ?

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

So I believe it should hit atleast 26v so if it does spray shouldn’t be a problem. It has a pretty big mig gun so it should handle the heat without issue. For some reason the spec sheet doesn’t list voltage range on output, but the settings chart I can see goes to 25v so it should be able to spray. Edit: it seems to not come with a .035 drive roll (v groove) so I would pick one up because .035 is better for spray than .030. 👍

[@skyfreakwi]

So wait... Can I run straight co2 through my mig gun using my 500 amp stick machine for the power source? I'll unhook the power input to the gun and swap welders useing the ground from the stick machine. I'd just be using the gun for the wire feed and gas solenoid? I don't see why not but maybe you can tell me. Other than melting the gun down...

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

So that’s sort of the setup I have at a project I am working on. They have a power source (400amp miller power source machine) and a suitcase feeder. All the feeder does is hold a spool of wire and feed it. You set wire feed speed on the feeder and the voltage on the welder. Inorder for this to work the welder needs to be capable of CV or constant voltage. MiG operates on constant voltage variable amperage. Stick operates on constant current (amperage) variable voltage. If your machine can be switched to CV mode you could actually pickup a “cold feeder” with a mig gun off marketplace for dirt cheap and mig weld on the machine.

[@skyfreakwi]

@@makingmistakeswithgreg what does Tig do voltage or amperage? The machine has an outlet that says output voltage signal but I have no idea what that's all about. I'm guessing it has to do with the timed weld function since it's on that plate along with an outlet for remote contactor 115 volts external... Never spot welded with it before. Obviously it has tig function as well. What is the difference between volts and amps as related to the gun/spool drive. I have a parts flux welder that spools wire when I pull the trigger but I think it's one of them that is energized with the power switch not the trigger. The hose and gun were messed up when I got it but I have an old school tweco MiG torch I can use.

[@skyfreakwi]

So to short but sweet all that. The MiG gun is always on as is the stick/tig machine. In stick mode anyway. I suppose I could add a switch to the gun and run it in tig mode...

[@Joseph-Colin-EXP]

Can spray be used w/ flox core?

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

So flux core is kind of a unique process. Gasless flux core operates as a globular process in a lot of ways. The voltage tends to be too low for true spray. Gas shielded flux core (dual shield) is is run at higher voltages and will spray or do globular. The issue with dual shield is running super high voltage can produce weld defects (worm tracks). So there is a limit to voltage with dual shield and in many cases the common utilization of 100% co2 will totally prevent spray.

[@engjds]

Would spray offer better penetration than stick?

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

Spray welding will penetrate better than 7018 rods and be as strong. 6010 stick rods will penetrate as much as spray, but the weld they deposit is weaker than spray. Spray is very valuable in production welding because you’re able to achieve large single pass welds with big penetration without beveling. The amount of time that can be saved is huge. The main downside to spray vs 7018 stick is the cost of the welder and how much of a beating it puts on it. I can stick weld 2inch thick steel with a 150$ stick welder. The bare minimum machine cost to be safely welding that thick of material with a wire welder is probably 1k plus a gas bottle. Stick is still the “every man’s” affordable solution to welding thick steel.

[@massa-blasta]

Could you make a video on welding off a 2500 watt max portable inverter generator. They're pretty popular, perhaps you could borrow one. I am curious what could be done if this was all you had?

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

I can give you actual numbers because I have tested enough welders to know. If you had a fronius 180, esab rogue series, miller maxstar, or other highly efficient welder with power factor correction, you would be able to weld at 90a output on a 7018. That’s provided the generator outputs 2500 running watts. At a 1800 running watts 2500 starting watts you would be able to run 60-70 amps on 3/32 6013 or there about on a 5/64th 7018. The only way around this is with a welder like the fronius battery powered welder, which uses the generator to more or less charge the battery. This setup is capable of 150a of output in a generator. Edit: another thought would be using tig. With tig the voltage is run a lot lower. You could probably tig weld at 110-120a on a 2500 starting watt generator. That is borderline enough to weld unlimited thickness material. Keep in mind it would be very slow in comparison to stick to get any metal deposition.

[@massa-blasta]

thanks Greg @@makingmistakeswithgreg 🍺

[@richarcruz7843]

Thank u Greg really appreciate ur Wealth of knowledge….is there possible that u can do a shootout between dual-shield flux core An Spray down th line is my understanding that dual shield flux core can be run out of position but not really 💯 sure I kno that with Pulse An double pulse machines is th real way to go but again if th same weld quality can be done with dual shield flux core it really is a matter of quality An price of th machine those dual pulse machines can be pricey An if it’s possible to preform th same quality/penetration on thicker metal granted with dual pulse th obvious appearance of th weld is night An day thank u 🙏🏽

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

I will be doing that for sure. Dual shield can definitely be used for out of position. It also can be run with normal c25 gas. It still has the limiting factor of needing higher voltage (24-25v). Dual shield runs really good, it will be interesting to see how it fairs in .045 to .035 spray arc.

[@piethendriks6240]

i spray weld tractor implements at 30 volts and 15 m/min of 1mm wire. The sound it creates is bizarre

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

That’s definitely up there on feed and voltage. Big welds and getting it done fast 😀👍

[@1970chevy07]

I use 75/25 and iam capable to spray arc with hobart 210

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

With c25 you can’t run spray, it will more or less stay in globular. The welder you have based on millers chart is only capable of around 22v at 180-200 amps. 100% c02 will give you good performance with that machine as far as penetration and you will be able to match the short circuit welds in the video, but you won’t be able to run spray unfortunately.

[@G5Hohn]

Imagine my satisfaction to learn that my Sanrex will hit 30V and 720ipm ;) Should spray with the right gas.

[@paulkurilecz4209]

When MIG welding aluminum, the spray arc process is used.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

You are correct. Which is why mig aluminum tends to be very unforgiving on thin material. Get the molten pool started and haul ass lol.

[@paulkurilecz4209]

@@makingmistakeswithgreg Yes, it is used primarily in fabrication where there are long welds on thicker sections. I have used it quite a bit and you cannot hesitate.

[@donsmith9081]

The spray arc (bottom plate) did not look like it had very much penetration.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

Spray tends to produce a punch to the center for penetration and not a whole lot of sidewall fusion. Without a doubt some settings tweaks would help a bit as well. The values run were also on the low end of spray, around sub 220amps. As you go up in wire feed you will see an increase in performance. 3/8th steel needs a lot of heat to achieve decent fusion.

[@donsmith9081]

@@makingmistakeswithgreg If you look at 18:35 the penetration is mostly in the sidewall pc. The (weld) looks symmetrical. Maybe gun angle has something to do with it? I really appreciate the video.

[@douggolde7582]

So almost as good as stick.

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

Stick is solid, but above 230a machine spray or dual shield will take over stick in performance. The problem is cost, you’re in the welder and gas bottle for a minimum of 1200$ and upwards of 2k for a solid setup. With a 300$ harbor freight stick welder you can weld xray quality welds on 2 inch thick plate without an issue. That’s not happening with a 300$ wire welder lol.

[@edvivarttas1716]

If you're going to spray you better wear a full jacket and cover up good it'll burn your right to a t-shirt

[@makingmistakeswithgreg]

Great point. The UV coming off is definitely substantial. Thanks for bringing that up because for sure people will overlook that. Well, they will overlook it one time before a painful lesson is learned.