Mallory and Irvine: Into Thick Air

[@007EnglishAcademy]

A few KZbinrs regularly bang on about Everest, some of whom have actually been to the top. They endlessly regurgitate and spin the same old stuff, muddying the waters not in pursuit of the truth but in pursuit of more views. They have sold out. Michael Tracy is a rare exception. He has integrity.

[@donaldknowles9640]

Mr Tracy has two summits on Mt Everest

[@007EnglishAcademy]

@@donaldknowles9640 Indeed

[@gregknipe8772]

there is a world of scholarship not found on you tube. perhaps you might broaden your search.

[@007EnglishAcademy]

@@gregknipe8772 Perhaps you might not make stupid assumptions?

[@jcarry5214]

Thom's a weird case. He's got experience but he's also attached himself to an event and a mystique so he's already trying to cook up some horseshit in the last couple days, I'm getting hammered with the recommendation

[@mtngrammy6953]

Thank you! This is the most compelling argument that I have seen. I have always felt that at least Mallory made the summit.

[@BHSNMrAdams]

Why would you assume one reached but not the other?

[@Capri42PRG]

I think this is possibly your best video. Well reasoned and to the point. I'd be interested in seeing someone try to refute these points

[@JohnDavidHays]

This should be open KZbin, not Members Only. A really fine video. Really fine.

[@sharonsplat]

I agree, a great educational video.

[@More_Row]

It is isn’t it?

[@mfreund15448]

It is now in the public area.

[@htewing]

it is now! I sadly can't afford memberships so if I can comment, it's definitely now available for us plebs :D

[@TheSaxon.]

​@@htewingIf you can't afford at least a dollar a month, you probably shouldn't be surfing KZbin.

[@dannydangelo762]

Yet again , another fantastic video from Michael Tracy. 👍

[@PugFaceMusic]

Love it. Short and to the point.

[@VK6AB-]

I have no doubt they made it, conditions were near ideal - however I also think they made it too late and as a consequence the got caught out on the descent. They were incredibly capable, very fit and highly accomplished their equipment was good enough under the conditions they faced, however the smallest delay at that altitude has consequences.

[@mikelewis1436]

This is the exact same scenario I have in my head...they were engaged in a race against time on the descent - and sadly it was a race they lost...

[@gregknipe8772]

@@mikelewis1436 the same race could have been from any point of a retreat. you see what you want to see. thats human nature. for some.

[@mikelewis1436]

@gregknipe8772 I get what you're saying, but how do you account for the goggles in Mallory's pocket, smashed watch indicating a nighttime fall etc etc?

[@aeromodeller1]

Captain John Noel, "Through Tibet to Everest", Chapter XVII, The Culminating Tragedy, page 267, Footnote 2, "The second step is the upper of two distinct steps in the summit ridge leading from the North-East Shoulder to the summit and is situated just at the foot of the final pyramid ." This describes what is today known as the Third Step. He quotes Odell saying he took out his glasses to watch them silhouetted on the second step, going strong within 600 feet of the summit. "Then the mist swept up, and the whole fascinating vision vanished. I waited and watched again, but the mist never cleared, although, I think, up where they were there was little or no mist. But that was all I saw. When I last saw them they were going strong. The sight gave me the first impression that they were going to reach the top."

[@arneboveng3756]

That is super compelling. Would resolve the conflict surrounding Odell's sighting at the top of the 2nd step, since Odell could not actually see today's 2nd step from his exact known location He meant the step we call the 3rd step today-perhaps.

[@booperpotpie9634]

​@arneboveng3756 I agree that this could be a compelling component of the did they or didn't they reach the summit argument. If there were no adverse conditions causing them to abandon their ascent, then I think it is possible that at least one of or both of them summitted it 1924 until tragedy struck on their descent.

[@rogergriffin9893]

Thank You for this latest post. As usual you have done thorough research and offered a realistic analysis of Mallory and Irvine's ascent. I always look forward to each of your new posts.

[@HighCarbDiabeticV]

Wonderful video as always, thanks Michael

[@eric-wb7gj]

TY Michael, 🙏🙏 a great, concise summary!

[@josephjackson2010]

Oxygen bottle caching ranks up there with summit rocks as a topic that was specifically brought up by Mallory that somehow is missed by “researchers” when analyzing M&I’s final summit attempt. In addition to oxygen bottle caching being mentioned by the oxygen bottle manufacturers or the possibility of Irvine figuring out himself, Mallory specifically mentioned the concept in a letter to Ruth on May 26, 1922. When Mallory analyzes Finch and Bruce’s chances of success he notes “All depends on whether they succeeded in dumping (caching) cylinders ahead of them.” Hence it seems reasonable to assume Mallory would have discussed this strategy with Irvine when they were making an oxygen attempt, as he viewed it as crucial/beneficial to a successful summit attempt. As noted in the video, other content creators have become increasingly desperate to come up with new theories, even ignoring or cherry picking data to do so. In a series of outlandish interviews on Francis Tapon’s Wanderlearn channel, Robert Edward’s exemplifies this new method of theory creation. Rather than believing the custom made Swiss ice axe directly above Mallory’s body was George’s and marked the scene of an accident, he speculates that it belonged to a Sherpa and that Mallory and Irvine brought 3 ice axes in their summit attempt. In addition to possibly intentionally misplacing the 1933 high camp for his “mathematical” analysis, Edwards also ignores the overwhelming evidence that Mallory and Irvine suffered a tremendous fall while roped together. This bizarre interpretation of clearly documented facts allows him to postulate that Mallory was returning to camp 5 for “help” to rescue Irvine who he states was incapacitated higher on the mountain between the second and third steps. Despite camp 5 being without a cooker to boil water, without oxygen and not having anyone at it to assist with a rescue. Whereas Occam’s Razor would lead to the conclusion that they fell roped up at the ice axe location, Mallory ended up in the Mallory Basin and Irvine continued his fall into the central rombuk glacier.

[@mn-nf3dd]

I also watched that video. Edwards hasn't climbed any mountain, so I felt a lot was his speculations. I really can't see Irvine's body falling after being found by the Chinese climber. The rope around Mallory is actually evidence to the possibility of the two falling together. How will he explain it if they find Irvine's body with a rope around it?

[@ihcman9130]

I still don't believe Mallory fell from the ice axe location. His body wasn't broke up enough to have fallen from that height. I believe his fall was from much lower down, closer to where his final resting spot is. I also don't believe Irvine fell from the ice ax location, I think he fell with Mallory as Mallory still had the rope tied around his waist with the broken end trailing along. I can't explain the ice ax and as to why it was laying where it was. Its also just not the terrain that someone falls easily from.

[@creativecolours2022]

​@@ihcman9130 Mallory's axe was found next to his body. It seems that he used it in order to slow down himself. My opinion is that Mallory fell first. The rope that he was tied with Irvine broke and Irvine marked the place that Mallory fell with his axe and tried to descend alone. Then he fell too. All that after reaching the summit and while they were descending in the afternoon without the best of light conditions. In any case who fell first can be easily proved it they ever find Irvine's body or whatever is left off his body. If he still has the rope tied in his waist then they fell together. If they find him without the rope, then Mallory fell first and Irvine went on alone until he fell himself.

[@Spike-sk7ql]

​@@ihcman9130 You should rewatch the video then. Because he gives an example of someone literally falling nearly the exact same route, he self arrested, and stood up. How do you STILL think he should be "broken up"

[@ihcman9130]

@@Spike-sk7ql that is one example, also I remember that story, I don't think that guy fell quite as far as Tracy is suggesting. I'll have to research it more before I debate anyone..

[@VanishedPNW]

Of course they made it. I cant believe so many argue against their success.

[@lifesahobby]

It's understandable. They didn't make it down . . That's going to lead to a bit of doubt 🦾🔥❤️

[@chrimony]

We will never know for sure. Regardless, they didn't come back down alive. That's the ultimate failure.

[@RSimpkinuk57]

@@chrimony I agree. In my mind climbing and mountaineering, though closely allied, are two different things. The North Face of the Eiger, to take a famous example, is climbing, but Everest is mountaineeering. And in mountaineering the summit, if reached, is only the half way point.

[@jaybee7890]

Nice summation of prior videos. There is some mystery as to whether Irvine fell to the bottom in 1924 or later. Based on at least one potentially credible sighting in 1960. Sightings after that could be suspect (Dorje). 1975 sighting of Mallory was credible. Finding out whether Irvine was ever there or not would be a task since there is little to go on. Indeed it is probable they sumitted but the proof will likely not come but there is always a chance. At this point that part of the mystery would rest with whether Irvine is found. Something tells me the Chinese are less inclined to enable that endeavor now more than ever.

[@davem8836]

Good summary.

[@JoshuaNorton-ki6uf]

I have always been puzzled by the attitude of the British Society who decided that Mallory and Irvine could not possibly have been where Odell thought he saw them. There was no real basis for them coming to such a conclusion, and it seems strange to me that they should have decided to distrust the words of somebody who was on the mountain that day and was a very good observer. Looking at this from a transaction viewpoint, I cannot see what they gained from deciding to adopt their stance. They could have left things as Odell had stated - Mallory and Irvine were very high up but later than he had expected. What did they gain from deciding that Odell was mistaken? I can't see any gains. What did they lose? For a start, Odell's experience and abilities, since he was never selected for any future expeditions. Reading E F Norton's (no relation :) account "The most hateful place in the world" shows no such pessimism so I can find no evidence of his subsequent expedition report colouring the minds of the Society. For some reason they seemed to make up their minds ignoring almost all the reports from those who had actually been there. Edit to Add - I went through the sections in Norton's "The fight for Everest" and could find nothing in there that is in any way negative enough to have persuaded the Society to have adopted their position. In particular, the section "Future Possibilities" is very supportive of both future attempts and the strategy for 1924, there is no wailing and gnashing of teeth and "We are just Tonka Toys in the playpen of reality". So there's another mystery for you, why the negative mindset?

[@craigfairweather3401]

Did they want Norton to have the distinction of having gotten closest to the summit?

[@JoshuaNorton-ki6uf]

@@craigfairweather3401 I'm not sure. His own account seems a very modest approach to his personal accomplishments so I don't think he was pressuring anybody for such an accolade. Rather, he seems keen that a subsequent expedition is assembled to build on what they had already learned. As it transpired, nothing was done until nine years later, and Norton's active involvement with Everest attempts ended in the post-1924 wrap-up, so again, there is no gain to be had from belittling Mallory and Irvine's chances in favour of Norton's. I should have put in my earlier comment that there are no supportive statements in "The fight for Everest" which could form the basis for the myths Michael Tracy listed in the video, so just like the disbelief of Odell's sighting, these myths have come from the minds of those who were never there, and could not read or believe the accounts of those who were.

[@nellyx1x493]

By 1924, the combination of the three expeditions and previous explorations had already spent a vast amount of effort and were so close to achieving their goal. The longshot view of the face used in the video is a great example of how relatively close Norton had got to the summit (the highpoints of subsequent expeditions in the 30's being similar) - there's a sense that on the journey across from Camp 6, the others had made it 8/9 tenths of the way to the top, the entire vast scale of the face seen from afar emphasises the small portion left to unlock. When the team returned home after 1924, there must have been a strong desire to complete the job given how much had been gained. Yet achieving the funding to make that happen would be a barrier to future plans. If it was accepted that M&I had reached the third step, and estimating that there should be no further difficulties to the summit, then this alone would have disincentivized support for future expeditions - if there was a stronger possibility that the summit had already been attained and ultimate price already paid, then there would be less desire to to the same again. This alone is among numerous other possible reasons why it would have been advantageous to downplay the altitude of the sighting. If they were at or beyond the third, then they were higher than anyone had ever been, or ever would be for another 28? (Swiss in 52) years. edited: 29...... swiss '52 @ 8595 equates to inbetween 1st and 2nd.

[@julianwood6625]

@@JoshuaNorton-ki6uf British Society would have had a problem with M&I getting to the top mainly because of future funding. There was no expedition for 9 years because of some diplomatic incident, The Affair of the Dancing Lamas. This is well worth checking out and is very illuminating regarding British Society!

[@azer20099]

Amazing summary! Thanks for your so precise investigations!

[@poc329]

Well done for another excellent video. Like you say. I hear the same old stories too. All untrue, but they keep trying to push their narrative

[@Martin.Lord.Waghorn6666]

Your a good man michael with honour unlike a certain thom pollard

[@Spike-sk7ql]

I couldn't even watch Thoms last video after they found Irvines foot. He honestly tried to say that the discovery of the foot further solidifies the Chinese moving the body off the mountain theory. I don't know how some people think up the things they say.

[@Martin.Lord.Waghorn6666]

@@Spike-sk7ql hes very sneaky

[@jcarry5214]

@@Spike-sk7ql I keep almost clicking on that vid just so I can scream.

[@samueljohnston9343]

Im curious if there has been an analysis of mallorys rope and his injuries from it to figure out the distance of the fall before the rope became taunt, or wether or not it snapped or was cut? As you can probably now tell im pretty new to this stuff but it is definitely really interesting!

[@michaeltracy2356]

Unfortunately, all of that stuff is top secret. The basics are we know there were two different ropes, but where and how they were tied is a secret. As in any injuries to the body. While some blurry photos exist of "bruising," without more complete photos, we have no idea what the extent of his injuries were. It is very unlikely any of this will be made public anytime soon.

[@rishiwalker2027]

Excellent work again! Great summary of your points that make absolute sense. At this point, besides common sense, what would do justice to M and I in demonstrating to the world that they did reach the summit? Summit rocks? Is there anything else that could ever prove it? Like you, if the rest of Sandy's body is ever found, and the camera, I can't imagine 100 years of weather and a two kilometer fall would have spared it, or the film within. I believe I recall Tom saying that he did search for rocks, to no avail... Thanks, I'm really looking forward to more of your work.

[@jaybee7890]

There really is little left to go on in my opinion. We are 80% there, and that'll do. Anything done or not done by the Chinese would be obfuscated and squirreled away. Nothing supportive found with Mallory (lack of family photos perhaps) - perhaps an intact Irvine is located (if China allows a return) and perhaps summit rocks but unlikely. Less likely is an intact camera. In short, I do not believe the proof that people desperately want will ever be garnered. It will always be a "most likely what happened" case. To me they likely summited yes and fell on the way down. The Watch video is quite a good re-telling of that. To me, they were spotted at the 3rd step, again based on MT videos and Hemmleb. I do not personally care if they went through the Couloir (most likely), or the 2nd step (unlikely based on trip reports and writings) - but what if they did? I always hold out the possibility that people make weird decisions at the last minute to save time and pull off the incredible. Who cares if they summited how they got there. It doesn't change anything, so I have never gotten into the step argument it's stupid. No matter what the evidence says, all we have is Odelle's sighting. Initial sightings always better than revised witness statements. Any lawyer knows that. All of the later stuff, Dorje, Pan Duo, Ambassadors to Mars, tales from the CTMA told to someone in Nepal, etc etc., books that have been written - they all take a bit of what is known and then spin a tale. To me it is not a big deal as the lay person doesn't understand or care about any of this stuff. It does illustrate how easy it is to spin a yarn and get people to buy into it on social media, and that is troubling in an era of disinformation. I think part of it is people trying to adapt to make a living in the world when they don't have a law degree to fall back on, etc. which gives the luxury of not having to sell out to survive or test one's integrity or lack thereof. Also, some of these people just aren't that smart let's be honest. Dirtbag climbing doesn't require it. (Pollard et al.) Stay in school kids!

[@nunyafuckinbizniz]

Tom says alot of things, then flip flops back, or doesn't remember or won't say.

[@Spike-sk7ql]

Thom replied to one of my comments after many many comments about summit rocks. He finally said that he looked for rocks, and didn't find them. While he was busy looting a dead body, searching for a camera. I honestly don't believe he thought for 1 second about summit rocks. But Thom will say whatever he can to keep the narrative going in his direction. Just something I've noticed watching some of his videos. He also can't find enough nice things yo say about Jon Krakauer. If that tells you anything.

[@mitchr1080]

It puzzles me with the weather so good that afternoon why no one was able to pick them out through the telescopes lower down the mountain.

[@Sparrow-qb7eu]

Would it have been possible to check around Mallory's body for rocks from the summit? Would the rocks around where Mallory landed have been different from the rocks at the summit?

[@johngarbutt]

Good point.

[@eric-wb7gj]

Summit rocks are a different colour & type. They would have been in his pockets, or somewhere safe, like a pouch. Unfortunately the original 1999 team ripped up the clothing in a way rocks would most likely have fallen out (his trousers & other items were removed & taken). They weren't looking for rocks (apparently), despite having a geologist in camp. They did a very poor search as they missed at least a watch in Mallory's pockets. The 2 man team with metal detector two weeks later weren't looking for rocks either. Everything has been very badly carried out & site disturbed. Maybe it's still possible to find small/tiny fragments in what pockets are left, but that would mean digging Mallory up yet again, or the trousers to be scientifically analysed, but this seems doubtful, as it hasn't already been done.

[@susancoddington6393]

​@@eric-wb7gj It breaks my heart as well as makes me so angry how disrespectful those men treated George Mallory's remains like vultures in my opinion especially the two guys that went two weeks later and removed the rocky grave and climbed under his body to take pictures 😡taking his trousers wth. I thought anything recovered from the north face of Everest had to be turned over to China just as Irvine's booted and socked foot was luckily they were able to get a DNA sample

[@walkercustoms]

Thank you for all your information. I believe I watched every video you have in the past few days. This is the only place I've seen state fact vs fiction and even point out the extreme imagination some have set forth.

[@d-railg4302]

Mr Tracey. I hate to always have questions for you but I’m confused about this Nat Geo documentary that has just come out. Is this the same trip that The Ghost Above documentary was made from? Are they trying to make it seem like a different one? I thought Eric Simonson lead that expedition. It’s barely watchable with Thom lying every chance he gets. The line about Irvines family being able to finally lock the door made we want to throw up. Thanks.

[@rg3412]

What do you make of the idea that ACI’s boot should be analyzed for trace of minerals collected on it, as accidental summit stones?

[@reneboisselle]

This is great information. Awesome.

[@shadowrange]

The Grateful Dead also have a concept of "thick air" on their Aoxomoxoa album...new to the studio and all.

[@lifesahobby]

Your most convincing culmination of facts . Bravo michael . It is indisputable History re written .

[@elibennett6168]

Wasn't an ice ae found not far from Mallory's body?

[@hal4192]

Great video.

[@colestelly5047]

They had oxygen, they went for the top and made it. Took them a bit longer maybe, but they decided to go for it, and I personally believe they made it. I then believe they ran out of oxygen on the way day and ran in a lot of problems. Same thing that happens to climbers today. No big conspiracy needed.

[@smolski666]

1080p videos would be nice 😊

[@jkolesa65]

Very nice summary of evidence. Question: would the higher air pressure have been relevant to Mallory & Irvine since they were summiting with bottled oxygen?

[@michaeltracy2356]

Sure, they could climb at the same speed using less oxygen at a given altitude or a a faster speed using the same oxygen flow.

[@jcarry5214]

It's not like a scuba mask, it mixes with the fresh air.

[@billykershaw2781]

Mallory was going for it....this is the version I prefer.

[@BHSNMrAdams]

It's not just a "version," it is the account best supported by just about every line of investigation there is. Can we know with certainty? Of course not, but I will say this: there is a much better case that Mallory and Irvine made it than that the Chinese did in 1960.

[@jaym8027]

@@BHSNMrAdams 100% correct.

[@azer20099]

@@BHSNMrAdams That may be why the Chinese have been so reluctant giving free access to the face

[@achterlijkeidioten]

Factual and very convincing. Also, if Jeppe got back up and fell again, this time all the way down, could the same thing not have happened to Irvine? And, by now you're ready for a definitive book I should think.

[@amandastuart8294]

I love your videos!🥰

[@robertmartin8565]

I have always been confused about the summit rocks. The question has been asked, why didnt they search for summit rocks on Mallory ? Were they not searching for anything and everything on Mallory's body ? Did they not search all his pockets and such ? Where would one keep summit rocks for the descent ?

[@courtneyksf]

?is the ice axe on display with the rocks in Beijing actually Mallory's?

[@hatchetj4ck]

Has anyone established if Odell had binoculars when he made his famous sighting of M&I?

[@weenbaby]

I love how every video is a mic drop

[@scottmarcuss]

Hi Michael. I do enjoy your work thank you. You reference in a few videos a watch a along video. Have I missed this or have you not released it as yet??

[@michaeltracy2356]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/hHrLZ6mGbMuLg9E

[@stevenmcmaster8219]

It seems the odds are very strongly in favour of that Mallory and Irvine summited, but succumbed as many climbers do to a late descent making mistakes through exhaustion into fading light and and increasingly colder and treacherous conditions. It seems to me that the two climbers fell independent of each other in two different parts of the descent. Mallory from the ice axe position and Irvine possibly into the Norton Couloir, which leads down to the glacier where his foot/boot was found. If they were tied together with a rope, then a serious incident occurred at the site of Irvine's fall.

[@azer20099]

They were roped, so they probably fell together, the rope brokeand Irvine stayed higher

[@DesireeGonza]

Well explained.

[@pauloldham4605]

Thanks I thought that too but I'm no expert and was under the impression that some suggested otherwise on other vids.

[@relaxingnature2617]

i believe they made it to the summit

[@jamesfagan172]

Great video , just reinforced my theory. I truly believe they both made it, but if not, for sure Mallory

[@kencusick6311]

The evidence we have points in the direction with a good probability that Mallory and Irvine made the summit. Only one chance left to definitively prove it. I hope the proof is found and they achieve the recognition that would be their due.

[@CataSmersh]

I do like your videos, have a different look to the issue that has something. But I'm a bit concerned by the theory "overwhelmingly die on the descent", even that statistics would back it up, not sure it can be used to be very positive that Mallory and Irvine reached the summit. As counterbalance I would pick Peter Boardman, Joe Tasker, Three Pinnacles case, new route, on ascent, never made it, and disappeared.

[@zztop4996]

Question. I don't know enough about everything to understand the significance of the 12-year old's video, even though I just watched it. What was his salient new discovery?

[@michaeltracy2356]

It wasn't really new. He just presented it in a simple fashion -- their clothing was adequate to the conditions Mallory and Irvine faced.

[@jcarry5214]

You've made it a lot easier for me to detect falsehoods in "conventional wisdom", I just wish you'd made it easier for others to not scream and threaten those who point out fictional shibboleths. How many times do you hear someone repeat something false that we "just know" and their rationale is that it's simply the more popular story? It takes nothing to turn a guess into a myth into the truth, it's exhausting.

[@k.brucedonnelly4893]

Micheal, what is your take on the recent Andrew Irving find?

[@localbod]

His surname was Irvine.

[@moethecat4265]

One thing to add here about your analysis. If Mallory fell without his ice axe. Then why would he be facing down in the self arrest position. To self arrest, you would face back and dig into whatever there was with the ice axe. But if he didn’t have one while falling, than how does that explain this position. Did Mallory and Irvine share iceaxes? Please explain

[@michaeltracy2356]

That is not what Jeppe Stolz did. He was face down in self-arrest with no ice axe. That just means using your hands to claw at the mountain. So, most likely Mallory did the exact same thing that Jeppe Stolz did because they were found in the exact same body position. That is, they faced the slope and attempted to claw at it with their hands.

[@moethecat4265]

@@michaeltracy2356 thanks for your feedback.

[@johnh.eickert1193]

I began mountaineering in the '60s. At that time, there were three kinds of belay: a seated belay, a boot-axe belay and a standing hip belay. The standing hip belay is executed facing into the mountain with the rope between your legs. Until the '70s, ropes were an organic material. They could take a tremendous load but not a sharp edge, and they were easy to hang-up in any crack or on a rock horn. The stronger belayer was always second on the rope. So? Irving was in the lead. Mallory dropped his axe to brace himself for a standing hip belay. Mallory was pulled from his stance. The rope was severed not snapped.

[@johnh.eickert1193]

Oops. My bad. Irvine not Irving.

[@pauloldham4605]

@M Tracy do you think Mallory and Irvine are roped together when Mallory fell?

[@michaeltracy2356]

Yes. Given Mallory had a rope tied around him that was broken, there are no other realistic scenarios where this would occur.

[@stayclean777]

Pretty sure fwiw there was a broken rope around Mallory when they found him, and skin injury from it.

[@scottmarcuss]

The only thing i am not sure I agree with you on is the ice axe. I read an article recently which suggest the ice axe was left as marker for the oxygen cylinder. I think this is plausible. Do you think this is possible or it is definitely the fall site??

[@michaeltracy2356]

That theory is not close to realistic. First, you have to understand where it came from. Edwards had published his book and had not mentioned the theory. Then, I do a video on the lengths of the ice axes and the theory in his book no longer works. So, he invents a new theory. When you invent things just so your theory works, that is changing the facts to fit your theory rather than changing your theory to fit the facts. Edwards does this all the time -- moving the location of the ice axe, moving the location of the 1933 high camp -- he just makes stuff up, puts it on a Google Earth map, and wants people to believe it is accurate. There is no reason to believe that they carried 3 ice axes. You can see the photo of the leaving. They do not have an extra ice axe. An extra ice axe is not something they one is likely to carry. More problematic is that there is nothing in that location to mark. What exactly were they supposed to be "marking" with an ice axe? No one on the 1933 team thought it was a "marker." And Wyn-Harris left his ice axe on the mountain because he claimed carrying the two ice axes was too much work. Edwards just ignores that. In general, he ignores everything that doesn't agree with his theory.

[@Spike-sk7ql]

Wouldn't a tall brightly colored oxygen bottle, stood up be a better marker for where a bottle is? I would stand it up, and put rocks around it so it stays standing. Especially when they were the only ones on the mountain. An ice age laying on the ground is a terrible marker.

[@antonyreyn]

I think they made it but Isn't there a photo of Mallory wearing 2 pairs of goggles just before the climb? Cheers

[@davem8836]

Michael, regarding that link to that U of T study, either YT or you keeps deleting it. Now my original post has been deleted as well. One more try GWK Moore Everest.

[@michaeltracy2356]

Well, it wasn't me. KZbin does some funny stuff. You are marked for "auto approval," so it doesn't even go into the "waiting approval bucket." It might reappear in a bit. In any case, I was able to locate the study and basically, it accepts the pressure drop reading as the truth without questioning it. Certainly, if the pressure were measured correctly at 8AM on June 9th, it would indicate a significant drop in pressure that could present problems for M&I if they happened to still be alive at that point in time. It would also indicate a massive storm on the mountain. Thus, either all the photos and weather reports from June 8, 9, 10 were faked or a single reading of the barometric pressure was inaccurate. I get they want to do an entire write up about the weather, but ultimately all it proves is the old adage -- garbage in, garbage out.

[@daveb7128]

Do you think only finding Irvines's boot (and foot) means the rest of his body has already been removed? Or is still on the mountain somewhere? (I edited this post, I meant to say Irvine not Mallory)

[@michaeltracy2356]

There was never any reason to believe Irvine's body was removed. It was the third version of a rumor kept getting debunked. First the rumor heard from an "anonymous diplomat" was that Irvine was buried high on the mountain. As soon as that turned out to be yak dung, it changed to being moved to a Chinese museum back in 1975. That didn't make any sense because Mallory was left on the mountain and the Chinese did nothing to stop the expedition when they publicly announced they had found Mallory. So, then it turned into the version that has the "throwing" Irvine down the mountain shortly before the 2008 Olympics. That doesn't appear to work for where Irvine's boot was found, so it has it make place much earlier -- again with the problem that there is no explanation as to why the Chinese would throw Irvine down the mountain and not Mallory. Unless the Chinese knew the 1999 team would not search for summit rocks, that theory doesn't make any sense.

[@antonyreyn]

@@michaeltracy2356 well they could only throw which ever they found , if they didn't find mallory how could they throw him? I'm not saying anyone was thrown just answering your point. Cheers

[@eric-wb7gj]

@@antonyreyn The Chinese found a single British climber, & told the 1999 Expedition where to look, .........& they found Mallory.

[@antonyreyn]

@@eric-wb7gj found or saw? Body could of been temporarily exposed and then disappeared again, they could have seen from a distance, the only confirmed find was in 99 and even that was slightly outside all the 'previous' sightings which set the parameters for the search. Cheers

[@eric-wb7gj]

@@antonyreyn The Chinese saw a body, & knew it was old due to the hobnailed boots, so must have been quite close. They told the 1999 expedition where to look, & they found Mallory in the same area. There's only been one sighting of an old body that I know of *which was Mallory). Micheal's videos also discuss what the Chinese saw.

[@sebchenkooo]

fantastic video not like the grave robber thom pollard

[@PatrickDuffy-u3s]

If Mallory and Irvine had done the exact same thing today and perished on the mountain, nobody would bat an eyelash. But for some strange reason, because they were among the first recorded deaths attempting to summit Everest, they are folklore heroes. To prove my hypothesis, just observe how dead bodies on Everest are ignored today, many of which are passed by on the trail to the summit, and nobody even knows their names. Some are given pseudo-names like "green boots", who apparently died somewhere near the Hillary step, and has been laying there for years and nobody cares. Why this obsession with Mallory and Irvine? It's a quirk of human nature that cannot be explained.

[@Spike-sk7ql]

Green boots was nowhere near the Hillary Step. He was on the North side. The Hillary step is on the South side.

[@samdavis6445]

Go back to being one of Scuzzlebutt's legs.

[@mikekraut7643]

We know where they covered Mallory with rocks, and it’s not like he is very deep. Perhaps one day they will be moved so summit rocks can be checked for. That should finally put the question to rest

[@jcarry5214]

His remains were completely manhandled in 1999. They tore him (superficially) apart looking for stuff, and literally crawled underneath the body for photos while someone held him up like a plank with an axe. They cut his clothes and pockets open. Any summit rocks were either taken and not mentioned or they were loosed from his clothes and kicked about the mountain by the crew. I held out hope for exactly what you say for a while, but the more I heard the less I held. Even if rocks were found there now you'd need a massive survey of the area to prove that no other natural forces had brought summit rocks to that part of the mountain, or that they were forensically concentrated around his body. Basically, either a small group already knows he had rocks in his pockets (and has used the "camera" as a McGuffin this whole time) or we will not ever know if he had rocks in his pockets. That's why a second shot with Sandy is such a big deal.

[@mikekraut7643]

@@jcarry5214 I see, that makes sense, and is sad to hear

[@jcarry5214]

@@mikekraut7643 I agree. For the record, Thom Pollard who gets rightfully hammered onthis channel, was the guy who felt left out and went back the another day, disinterred Mallory, and crawled underneath the cadaver to get pictures of the poor man's face.

[@lokischildren8714]

All the evidence says Mallory and Irvine made it too the summit First

[@TheSaxon.]

These "content creators" keep regurgitating because they lack the work ethic to do their own research, as well as the ability to analyse and interpret it. Many also lack the fortitude to voice their opinion for fear of ridicule.

[@allenaviation5746]

I think Mallory and Irvine fell during ascent-at the same time. Mallory's body was found exactly where he died but Irvine fell much further. Irvine's boot discovery makes me believe less in the stories that his body was found and shoved further down the mountain.

[@jackharle1251]

I see the "grave-robber" has been quite active lately with his bogus videos.

[@jsnmcnelson]

I am no expert on any of this but I find it interesting and appreciate the truth. In that spirit maybe 6 months ago I left a few comments on some of said creator’s video referencing Michael Tracy’s videos and raising some points for discussion regarding the truth of Mallory and Irving story. The comments were shortly after deleted. 🤷

[@patrentfrow]

May I ask who we're talking about?

[@HighCarbDiabeticV]

@@patrentfrow Thom Pollard

[@patrentfrow]

@@HighCarbDiabeticV that's who popped into my mind when I first read the original comment 🤣

[@HighCarbDiabeticV]

@@patrentfrow It’s crazy to me how he comes across in his videos, when we know he went back, dug up Mallory, took photos of him, apparently when underneath him with a camera to take pictures of his face etc. I wonder if he feels extreme guilt for what he did which leads to the nice guy hippy act. I’ve been watching more videos very recently about when they went back and it is horrible. I feel sorry for Mallory’s family, I spoke to his grandson, George, some years ago on Strava, he wasn’t happy at all about it.

[@MBCGRS]

Overwhelmingly evidence or blind faith. Same same...

[@andrewemery4272]

There is every reason to believe they made it. Only Hilary's ego opposes this.

[@stormtrooper9404]

It's not the question "if they did it". That is completely irrelevant.. But what has happened to them!?

[@andrewemery4272]

@@stormtrooper9404 Far from irrelevant. What happened to them is part of the proof they did it.

[@stormtrooper9404]

@@andrewemery4272Yea... But let's imagine hypothetical situation where they were sighted and photographed by Noel. Sure proof that they made it... but clears nothing of the mystery 🤷🏼 The summiting as is, without getting down alive is just irrelevant. But the whole ordeal, hundred years ago, with that tech, knowledge and everything... is what makes their story so appealing. Edmund Hillary is also irrelevant by today standards and alpinists. No one cares what he think anyway..

[@Spike-sk7ql]

​@@stormtrooper9404but the summitting is NOT irrelevant. People who summit today, but die on descent, get credit for reaching the summit! It's time to add at LEAST George Mallory to that list. Most likely Sandy Irvine too, but at least George made it.

[@stormtrooper9404]

@@Spike-sk7qlWell... if we go by the speculations.. They probably summited, and both of them. There's no reason to believe that only Mallory make the summit! Their destiny is entangled (pun intended), even in their death. So its either: both made it, or neither of them 🤷🏼 While we are at history... am much more pissed by lack of recognition of the other climbers opening new routes (and not just on Everest per se) Just a quick example? -What do you know about Yugoslav 1979 expedition? Not much eh? if that.. But those guys traversed the whole western ridge to the top! Their feat and odyssey is worth of a movie! But 🤷🏼

[@jamesjennings9907]

And don't forget the best reason for believing that Mallory and Irvine were first up Everest is that they both white European guys, not some Oriental chap called " Sherpa " Tenzing.

[@G-Hawks]

I don't believe they made the summit, there's no evidence of their summit therefore they did not, show me irrefutable evidence and I'll eat my words gleefully.