Manga Demographics Matter, Actually

[@princessjellyfish98]

shonen bros, if you're watching this, if you're watching colleen, first of all, thank you. second, if you got tickets, I would love to go to the jujutsu kaisen movie, so I can learn more about, your yaoi and culture

[@amalik6061]

Jujutsu Kaisen's fans who are into yaoi are mostly female. Moreover Jujutsu Kaisen have more female fans then male.

[@Nelsn3]

@@amalik6061 Source?

[@CantusTropus]

​@amalik6061 isn't it true that yaoi in general is a female thing? From what I heard, gay men tend to want different things out of their content.

[@GeekGawk]

​@@amalik6061 nah man overall jjk would easily have more male fans , though yeah the no. of female fans are quite something too.

[@MellowPilsner]

JJK is just like a lot of shoujo except the balls are smaller and no one dunks.

[@PredictableEnigma]

Thanks for pointing out that calling a shonen with heartfelt romance an "honorary shoujo" perpetuates toxic masculinaty by making romance seem like "only a feminine thing". I know this was a minor point and not the main focus of the video but I'm glad it was said. Mislabelling shonen romance as shoujo both writes off girls as only caring about love AND makes boys/men feel deviant for enjoying it when they should be allowed to be in touch with such a natural human experience too.

[@SammyRobinson62232]

@@PredictableEnigma I hate how the concept of love, feelings, romance and etc is only see as a feminine thing and not HUMAN emotions

[@moustik31]

Also, the average shonen romance stories arent for everyone in practice: fanservice serves as the main gatekeeper against non-sexist audiences in my experience. That's part of the problem with The Apothecary Diaries too: it takes more than having a female MC to make a shonen story "neutral/universal" imo.

[@PredictableEnigma]

@@moustik31 Definately. I have a higher tolerance for "anime bullshit" than a lot of women, but I'd never fault anyone for dropping a series over it. People shouldn't be forced to put up with it just because some of us are willing to.

[@CommissarCerreto]

Bro, you aint gotta dance around it. Just say it. romance is for boys.

[@elkapi7764]

@@moustik31yeah the aphrodisiac scene was pretty clear. That said, maybe bc the author is female but I’ve never felt super alienated by the story. I feel like there’s a good balance between male/female fan service (even if that male fan service mostly falls on Jinshi😂). Course it also helps that the characters have depth

[@spectraltala6362]

The recent Shogakukan awards are a prime example of why demographics DO matter. Demographics give EVERYONE the spotlight.

[@oasis_06]

the recent Shogakukan Manga Awards prove to me that demographics do matter, not a single shoujosei won. shoujo and josei manga deserve as much recognition and appreciation as shonen and seinen

[@ColleensMangaRecs]

exactly, I left out awards stuff but from the Shogakukan Awards to the Oscars for best Director category, anything feminine is often left out

[@SammyRobinson62232]

What’s type of award show is that?

[@life_is_no_fairytale]

how exactly does that prove demographics matter? Despite demographics existing, no Shojo/Josei manga won. meaning they arent getting recognition/appreciation.

[@Mercel29]

@@life_is_no_fairytale they are popular yet not getting recognition because they are meant for women and not treated seriously 😒 since you need it spelled out

[@life_is_no_fairytale]

@@Mercel29 yes, I agree. But that doesn't explain how having demographics help with that issue.

[@cmyep3310]

I just wonder if men indeed think that "perverted highschooler gets a harem of waifus with 0 character depth" can in any way be universal lol Great video!

[@伏見猿比古-k8c]

Perverted high schooler who gets *isekai'ed* to another world with a harem of waifu's with 0 character depth.

[@PredictableEnigma]

@@cmyep3310 I feel like men shout "shoujo" for less pervy examples of shonen/seinen romance. Like Toradora and Kaguya-sama and Your Lie in April get called shoujo because they are heartfelt and can easily be enjoyed by any gender, but they have an undercurrent that favors the male perspective if you know what to look for. You can still tell they were written with men in mind, even if it's less hamfisted about it.

[@lightishredgummi]

@@PredictableEnigma This is exactly why I try my DARNDEST to find _shoujo_ romance anime whenever I want to watch some romance (which is often). even if shoujo _was_ entirely made up of romance, it still wouldn't be _synonymous_ with romance because of how drastically and subtly different shonen romance can be. I want to _avoid_ the tropes and habits that are often in _shonen_ romance, specifically.

[@dandeliondot]

This always seemed like such a strange debate for me. To get rid of demographics would mean getting rid of stories tailored to girls. It won't magically make men read more girls-oriented media

[@mandisaw]

Yes to the first, maybe to the second. Plenty of seinen romances would likely see their readership numbers drop if the magazine/label were changed [magazine distribution differences aside]. And conversely, shojo & josei action titles could see boosts assuming they survived editorial meddling. Some dudes - and women! - will contort themselves into cognitive dissonance, or avoid stories they're interested in, rather than read something explicitly coded as "for girls / women".

[@DL-idk]

Well, I do know some men who would pointedly avoid “things made for women and girls” just to preserve their perceived masculinity. They don’t care if they would miss a goated story. They are just that insecure. But if you change the marketing a bit and say this stuff is made for all adults, they will probably consume it just fine.

[@CrimesNewRoman]

the point about androgyny being defaulted to be masculine with very little room for femininity is an incredibly good point, femininity is always an "addition" or an other as opposed to a second half of an overall whole.

[@PascuaMomo-m3v]

Hi, Colleen! I'm currently the head of the first shoujosei community in Guatemala. Living in a country where sexism is our daily bread is a constant fight. Watching your videos helps us to love even more the feminine demographic of manga. Thank you SO much for doing this, and reminding us that we are also important and deserving of recognition. Lots of love!

[@kageyukiaru]

you absolutely popped off with this one!! might be my fave video of yours so far! the cycle of demographics is or isn't necessary will always continue bc the core of the problem is something so deeply ingrained in all of us and that a lot of people can live their lives normally without needing to understand or work on it.

[@luvslotsastuff]

I'm a visual novel fan, and even though VNs don't have demographics in the same way I relate to this a lot. The universally acclaimed VNs such as Steins;Gate or Umineko are "gender neutral", but still clearly written with a male audience in mind. Romance VNs held in high regard are always bishoujo games such as Clannad or White Album. I've never, NEVER, seen an otome game (or hell even a BL game) listed on a top recommended visual novels list. I really doubt that the majority of male visual novel fans have even ever read one.

[@Mldy96]

I'll be honest, I am yet to find a Japanese joseimuke VN in general that I would put on a Top 10 list, though I would love recommendations that may change this! On the English-speaker (though not necessarily Western) indie side of things, the issue is moreso what is and isn't considered a VN (something that JP games are also affected by). Hanako Games for example has several games that aren't pure, non-kinetic VNs, and this makes people think that games like Long Live the Queen or the Magical Diary series aren't VNs because of their raising sim nature.

[@DT_Perigee]

23:00 Banana Fish wasn't mentioned here but epitomizes your argument. It's an important shoujo series that broke out into wider popularity in Japan and features a male protagonist.

[@alexlovessamoyeds]

And I still get talked down to when I mention it's a Shojo manga. I posted asking about Shojo manga figurines in an online forum earlier in the year, and someone literally said to me "you poor sweet child, Banana Fish isn't a Shojo". I found that very patronizing, and misinformed as it would be easy to simply google the title, and the demographic information would be right there.

[@lasttimeimaskingyouthis]

It's so hard to be honest male readers are weird. I remember reading a comment that a guy had made when Ooku anime came out. He said that it was a feminist's wet dream and this this is what all shoujo anime/manga are about

[@NeverAskedtobeMade1390]

There's an anime store I frequent when visiting friends and when they first opened, they had merch for the likes of Banana Fish and Fruits Basket. Now it's almost exclusively shonen stuff. They even carry Shonen Jump magazine. Asked if they were likely to get any shojo/josei, well, anything, and they blew me off. My excitement to go dulls every time and now I basically just go to stock up on snacks, ramen, and ramune with no hope of seeing shojosei merch ever again in there. I think this really drives home your point of the default being cishet men and everyone else being othered. I always love your video essays, but I think this one is my new favorite. Thank you Colleen!

[@mandisaw]

Shojo & josei series seem to come in 3 buckets, merch-wise. First, you've got a very few eternal powerhouses, like Sailor Moon and Cardcaptor Sakura, plus series that were popular back in their day, like Kodocha (Child's Toy), Fushigi Yuugi, etc. Then there are little-kids' series, which often have a ton of merch, but much of it may not appeal to a grown-up, or it doesn't make it out of Japan (or East & SE Asia). And that leaves most series in the category of none, or very little merch, often just furoku (magazine giveaways) or limited-run fans' event-only items. Since I started buying stuff via import, or sometimes eBay, I've been able to luck out with some of these on my favorite series. In the old days, I'd just haunt the local major Japanese bookstore chains to either find first-run or second-hand items, but it would be hit-or-miss.

[@Kalabadrawa]

Same in my country. There is a shop that i go very often,the only shojo/josei merch that it is Sailor moon, Sakura Card Captor,Mermaid Melody or Precure (dont get me wrong i love those series) but i would like they bring some merch of Yona of Dawn, Signs of Affections, Nina the Starry bride, Kimi ni Todoke, Fruit Basket, Banana fish ect. Mostly of that shop are food and merch of shonen series There are another shops that i go, one sometimes brings shojo/josei merch. But, not very often, mostly they bring shonen merch. The only thing that i buy there is manga shojo/josei and in the same street there is second hand shop of manga, that surprisingly there was the manga magazine Princess

[@伏見猿比古-k8c]

It would be better shop online, and vote with your dollar. Companies are incentivised to promote what's popular(makes them money)

[@lolitaku7229]

It's depressing that authors who want to write for a less masculine audience are basically told "Your ideas are not MY ideas of what our target audience likes". It's funny and a little scary to think shoujo manga was originally made to "teach girls to be wives and caretakers" and there's still editors/readers that perpetuate this idea in romance driven manga

[@hopeusthedopest]

Colleen you’ve done it again! As someone who has written a thesis on the creation and perception of animated female characters, I have to say you absolutely nailed the heart of the issue which is: who controls and funds these demographics? Men. Still today, women often do not hold high creative direction positions over the very media that is marketed towards them. I really want to take the time to thank you for creating well-researched and enjoyable video essays. We’re bringing back media literacy in 2025!!!!

[@roastedcheese3121]

Whenever I try to argue about with my brother about shojo or female protagonist being casted he always downplays it saying they ruined it. This video was such an eye opener as to why he thinks like that. I always knew he saw anything catered to women as less but it’s because he can’t relate to it and he never will. I wish I could make him watch this video, it has great points, keep up the good work!

[@SammyRobinson62232]

There is a video from a creator Verdis Joe that explain how representation doesn’t always mean relatability. Basically whenever people want more representation of either gender, race, sexuality and etc. you’ll have other people be like “well I can relate to toys from Toy Story than miles morales” or something like that. To which that’s good for you. But we still need specific story targeting for specific people because not everybody background personality etc are the same. Along with the fact that sometimes whenever the argument against demographic comes along, it always target demographic target for minority groups. For example: if somebody created a video saying “go check out these indie series created by black creator” You’ll have people accusing of “pushing segregation” more and more. To which that statement just make my head hurts as it ignore the context on WHY a person would create that video. Sorry for the long essay/my yap session and can’t wait to see more.

[@mandisaw]

This! Good storytelling always starts with "understand your audience". There's an inherent, pernicious assumption in the idea that "demographics don't matter" that *you* don't matter as an audience, but *I* do. When that message is coming from the local dominant culture [context-specific], the implication is that non-dominant audiences have no value - no meaningful voice. In this case it's gendered, and often it does overlap with sociocultural categories (and economic ones!!). But it can be as simple as tastes - just because FPS games and reality shows are popular, doesn't mean ppl who like other kinds of games or TV have no place at the table.

[@DL-idk]

The problem is this “I can’t relate to ___” statement is oftentimes biased and completely one sided. Girls and women are watching all men show all the time. Even though many of these shows have hints of misogyny here and there, they still try to find ways to pick up the good things from the shows because or else they will miss many good stories. But once you create anything at all for the non-default population, suddenly the so-used-to-be-the-default population can’t relate and start to complain. They don’t care about the story. They are just suddenly offended by the fact that the creators dare to ask them for an ounce of empathy power to relate to someone who doesn’t look exactly like them.

[@FrozenAfricaPrincess]

@@DL-idk I Iagree, it’s the same with media with black protags for example. Most black people will consume media regardless of who th protag is and just take it in, enjoy and empathize. While most non-black people will rarely consume media with black protags. The majority group that is catered to 99% of the time is not willing to shift their perspective or identify with someone who doesn’t look 100% like them because they never had to. Idk if it’s a lack of empathy or just not ever having to do it, so it feels like work to them, but it’s funny to observe them crash out over a game with a black or lgbt main character for example. They absolutely cannot handle it.

[@theoctopus7191]

I was watching Apothecary Diaries on Crunchyroll recently and noticed it’s labeled as Drama and Shojo. This is despite its light novel having a male demographic, and BOTH its manga being published in seinen magazines (from the series’s Wikipedia page). I agree with your points about the show and the little debate around its demographic - that demographics and shojo itself is ultimately about visibility and offering a dedicated space for female or femme voices so they aren’t washed away in the male default you were talking about. I also don’t think it’s a coincidence that it has similarities to other shojo series to the point that people want to call it as such, but that it is more popular and gets more visibility coming from seinen spaces than its possible shojo counterparts (like Eccentric doctor of the moonflower kingdom perhaps). It makes me wonder why Crunchyroll of all things decided to label Apothecary diaries as shojo, and if that’s at all indicative of a wider disconnect between what shojo means in the environments that create these stories we love and how it’s interpreted abroad.

[@alexlovessamoyeds]

Yeah, this is what gets me. I've read both TAD and Eccentric Doctor (and love both!), and it is true I could see TAD's manga being able to be published in a Shojo magazine like Asuka (where Eccentric Doctor is published), but one has to wonder why the manga that started publication earlier, has a similar enough premise, similar amounts of romance, mystery, and medical treatment, etc has almost no merchandise, no promotion (at least in Anglophone manga spaces), and certainly doesn't have a beautifully animated adaptation? The light novel wasn't a breakout hit until AFTER the manga adaptations began publication in their seinen magazines. I have no doubt that the TAD creators/adaptors could theoretically be taking women into account in their works too, or that the seinen magazines may have even been trying to expand their readership to women, but the fact that it has the luxury of being a seinen or at most unisex, compared to the similar story that states it explicitly targets women, makes me take a good hard look at things and still leads me to conclude that things that ostensibly target men and women are still placed above those that explicitly target women as the main audience.

[@thequietestlilbucket8402]

I really appreciate the fact that you bring in more aspects of this discussion as you come back to it. Also, the bit about the WNBA is just making me think of a comedy clip "The NBA, which I've heard is like the WNBA but all dudes"

[@ColleensMangaRecs]

Spencer from Smosh quote in my comments section!!!

[@SophiaSanders61]

12:34 Just wanted to say thank you for being an awesome person Colleen. I noticed it on yesterday's stream, but felt like I needed to shout it out when I could.

[@ColleensMangaRecs]

It's basic decency imo but it's also related to my own gender/people in a community I would be a part of

[@eggsscott]

The point about clothing is so true!!! I’m a very small women who likes to wear less form fitting clothing that largely hides my figure and I’ve never seen anything labeled “gender neutral” that would fit me how I want because it’s all just men’s sizing. The smalls in men are still an extra large on me. That’s not gender neutral that’s just men’s clothing they think other people might wear!

[@JD-yk4cw]

Thank you for explaining it so well!!! Glad to see ALL the context, examples and parallels you put in. Now, if someone refuses to understand after watching this video, they are being deliberately obtuse, no excuses lol.

[@fireworks5462]

Thank you so much for your amazing video! 💖 Shojo only being reduced to romance makes me so sad. I once saw a comment on instagram where the commenter said that Yona of the dawn had "less shojo and more action than anything else" as if shojo and action contradict each other. On the topic of "honorary shojo": the first time I saw The Fragrant Flower Blooms with Dignity in a book store, I initially thought it was a shojo because I thought that the cover was pretty. My subconscience was like "It's not ugly? Then it can't be a shonen!" Personally, I really prefer the shojo artstyle, with all the sparkles, bubbles and flowers. I find it easier to read because of the flowy panels and lighter pages. With shonen series like One Piece, I often have trouble figuring out, what's going on on a page.

[@RsaRsa-d7b]

I cannot believe this conversation is still in the anime/manga community. Like obviously demographics matter and people should have diversity in reading manga and watching anime and if they don't want to they at least shouldn't be ignorant about the demographics they don't read/watch or degrade them. People should stop degrading shoujo and josei. Like all of what i said isn't that hard. Either way thanks colleen for doing these amazing videos to spread this.

[@crazykid9750]

Thank you for this video! We have the same debates in the French manga community and it can get really tiring at times...

[@heitorsantoslima9289]

Huh, as a man I came here intending to disagree not because "I don't see demographics" (we all do), but because I can remember some cases in which demographic was anything but a label that a old japanese far up in his ass gave to a magazine, some cases being "Dorohedoro being first a seinen manga and after a shonen manga", "Hokuto no Ken and Jojo being pretty brutal in its depiction of violence and being published in WSJ" and the classic "K-On was published in a seinen magazine", so I was thinking more in terms of "demographics are useless cause they are non-descriptive", but I found myself agreeing more and more with you as the video went along, specially when you said "in a ideal world, we wouldn't need demographics". I, myself, don't read shoujo because is put as a niche of a niche, and I have been thinking about changing that (mainly because the manga we have today took a lot from Shoujo. Not only Tezuka was influenced by shoujo authors, but did shoujo himself, but so did Leiji Matsumoto, Shotaro Ishinomori, but think about the impact of the 24 group, Maya Mineo, Kazuo Umezz, so on and so on) but the video goes deeper into the question: It is not that demographics should be enforced, is that they are the small battlefield that women have in a world designed for men. I remember when Lindsay Ellis opened my eyes talking about the Twilight Saga being mocked not for being bad, but for being for young girls, while Transformers did not get the same public scrutiny. It is not that demographics matter per se, is that media for women matter. Here in Brazil, we are still taking small steps to have more BL, more Yaoi, more Shoujo and more josei being published. If you'd like to see, check out the cover and Graphic Design of Fire! By Hideki Mizuno published here by Pipoca & Nanquim. In the end, we can fight for visibility of the demographics, fight for recognition of the authors, fight for equality of all genders and fight for the breaking of gender roles altogether.

[@伏見猿比古-k8c]

I would recommend these shoujo: gekkan shoujo Nozaki-kun, ouran highschool host club, fruits basket, and cardcaptor Sakura. I don't read much josei but I love Uramichi onii-san (Uramichi is a very relatable character for adults) and jellyfish princess.

[@heitorsantoslima9289]

@伏見猿比古-k8c oh, cool! I need to take a look at some of these, Furuba is one I tried, I'm gonna give it another shot. Sakura is one I bought the complete collection, but couldn't read it yet. Anything CLAMP does is on my radar, as much as Ai Yazawa, Kyoko Okazaki, and the 24 Group as a whole. I also read Rose of Versailles and is a 10/10.

[@Bobp1254]

Shonen bro here, absolutely loved the video. Been getting into manga as of recently and I honestly didn’t know the variety shoujo/josei had. Definitely an eye opening video to say the least as i rarely see shojo and josei discussed within the manga community as a whole, which is a shame because now i feel as if ive been missing out this whole time. im now definitely interested in looking into some fantasy shoujo.

[@bridgettelair370]

Very rarely do I interact fully with online communities, just not in my nature I guess, so I didn’t know that some people thought demographics didn’t matter. Very odd, I’ve always seen it as guidelines to what you might get, which is why I also like tags to narrow it down further. A system essentially, not perfect by any means because I knew about Jennifer’s Body being completely let down by the marketing, but it still has use.

[@TheChaoticAsexual]

When I took a class on the visual culture of Japan (which had a dedicated manga unit by a prof who specialized in shojo manga) one of the essays I wrote was on the shojo influence in toilet-bound Hanako-kun. I acknowledged the fact that it is a shonen series, but using scholarly articles I pointed out the many shojo-esque features of the series, acknowledging how shojo has often been the vanguard of change and innovation in manga as a whole

[@disasterdom]

At 28, I feel like I've outgrown a lot of shonen and fit more into the seinen demographic. I think the closest thing to a shojo I have ever consumed is Ouran High School Host Club or Usagi Drop (which is josei instead). But I love your videos because even if I don't really intend on reading/watching most of the content you talk about, I think it's fascinating to learn about another side of the anime/manga community that I'm not used to seeing. Men and our interests should not be viewed as the "default" for anything, the interests of girls are not trivial, and their contributions to fandom are just as important. Thanks for always teaching me something new!

[@erynnoterin]

YOUR THUMBNAIL IS SO GOOD I LOVE IT!!!!

[@cadr003]

The Barbie movie is the greatest modern Western shōjosei film /sarcasm But the example of Jennifer's Body really shocked me!! PS Kageki Shōjo in your shelf!!!!!!

[@furihreunsicherheit3624]

Once again, you've produced an incredibly thoughtful video that makes me listen again and again to fully immerse myself in the topic and message at hand. Thank you for all that you do!! 💖

[@ProudPlatypus]

There's a very popular book genre at the moment that has been called romantacy (romance fantasy), which is really just another very successful wave of fantasy strongly marketed at women. Popularised by Fourth Wing's success. There have been arguments in the fantasy community, that it's general writing quality is somehow distinctly worse than the rest of the genre, that it should be shelved separately, some going as far to say it's not fantasy and should be in the romance sections entirely. There was a point, though it has cooled off now, some people were blaming it for the end of epic fantasy, which until recent was going through its own trend. Women getting into fantasy genre, and just generally enjoying the subgenre, have felt pushed out from spaces that discuss fantasy more general (me mostly seeing such things happen on the Fantasy subreddit). I think people are a little more aware of it in this instance, because we have had specific examples in the past people have since mulled over, but it is still very frustrating to keep seeing it happen. Women tend to be the larger demographic in the medium, so when something catches on that tends to appeal to women the most, it has a huge impact. There's certainly some parallels I see between that whole space, and how shojo manga is discussed.

[@adorabell4253]

I'm going to push back on this. Romantasy isn't fantasy with more of a focus on romance, it's romance in a fantasy setting; it's a subgenre of romance not of fantasy. Romance goes through its own trend cycle and right now it's stories set in a fantasy setting. When I was younger it was vampires. Fantasy has always had, if not a ton, then a good amount of romance in it but it's not the focus of the plot. All the genre divisions are really for marketing purposes, it's why classics is its own thing despite a good half of them being romance.

[@paulinagabrys8874]

Romantasy nawet nie jest romansem. To z reguły źle napisany erotyk osadzony w ramach fantasy. Ludzie nie lubą go nie dlatego że jest napisany przez kobiety ale dlatego że jest źle napisany i wypycha z rynku właściwe fantasy. Jakoś równolegle do siebie istnieją powieści historyczne i romanse historyczne. Jest sobie taki polski cykl, który raczej nie będzie wydany po angielsku. A mianowicie soft fantasy Necrovet. Bohaterka jest człowiekiem ale leczy zwierzęta i te zwykłe i te magiczne. Nie jest weterynarzem ale kimś w rodzaju pielęgniarki/asystenta weterynarza. Ten cykl oferuje o wiele, wiele więcej niż tylko romans głównej bohaterki z jej kolegą z pracy, który jest faunem. Dlatego uważam że ten cykl nie wyjdzie poza Polskę, maksymalnie poza Europę. Bo nie jest romantasy.

[@chixiepixie3697]

This has made me (an ace woman) realise why I don't usually enjoy Shoujo manga as much as I would like to. I want to, but often the emphasis on romance becomes too much for me even if the other elements of the story appeal to me. Editors! No wonder people confuse Shoujo with Romance if they are kneecapping their mangakas potential by forcing them to stay in the same lane. Not that I have any problems with romance (quite the opposite), but the idea that girls enjoy ONLY romance, despite all the evidence to the contrary, is so harmful overall

[@delightjiaes]

Amazing video essay as always. I'll always be on the side that demographics matter. I really hope more people see the diversity that shoujo showcases. Just alone with your magazine examples in this video, your magazine deep dives, even in other your other videos theres such a plethora of genres within the shoujo demographic. Also the art style of shoujo is beautiful and intricate its still baffling that the criticism for it that it's 'stateless'.

[@Lore-gb7gw]

Oh god how many people that I see commenting that demographics shouldn’t exist & all they ever read/watch are shounen series 🤦🏻‍♀️. Thank you for this video.

[@mandisaw]

Yeah, unfortunately below the politics & media-literacy, there's also just "narrow reference pool" and ppl being basic LOL :sigh:

[@sandman45]

it's good that you made this, the only people i've seen defend demographics in media are people on the far-right, probably because they feel that stuff is no longer being catered towards them anymore.

[@60508]

On point as always, I often feel like asking why anything "neutral" defaults to the mail norm, just something basic like unisex school uniforms being trousers and not skirts. Also the simple stick person, people draw a stick person with a skirt as fem and without as masc such a simple thing forcing the patriarchal hegemony.

[@mirroredhour]

Sexism always pisses me off so much but i do like to listen to discussions about it so catch me watching another excellent colleen video as i eat dinner.

[@noheterotho179]

Great video!! I actually hesitated to click on this when the title was phrased as a question because I always get so kind of beaten down by this debate. I don't know when "I appreciate and would like easy access to media made for women" became a regressive sentiment, I mean I completely understand the upset when people define "women" as afab or are a bit too gender restrictive, but it just never made sense to me how the burden of inclusivity was so often aimed at women more-so than men? I'd love a world where demographics didn't matter and we lived in some genderless utopia, but even if the world changed to that overnight, there's still centuries of misogyny we can't ignore that still influence everything today. I understand the argument of being against the idea of "boy version vs girl version" but I'm not a shoujo fan because I like romance (although I wish that'd stop being used as a gotcha-) it's because I enjoy picking up a book or show that i can feel safe knowing I won't depicted as a caricature or thoughtless prop. Putting the blame on women for identifying with labels and communities rather than the people who chased them there is crazy to me... idk though!!

[@princessjellyfish98]

thank you for making a video on this topic! whenever I think about the importance of demographics, I think of all the shoujosei I accidentally stumbled upon as a kid. I didn't know DNAngel or Kids on the Slope were written with girls and women in mind when I read them, but I connected with those stories so much more than the popular shonen series at the time! even with more popular shoujo series that western fans could identify as shoujo, I didn't realize there was such a disparate view of series like Ouran or Princess Jellyfish, I just enjoyed them. now I see lots of women and girls trying to get into manga, and living in an age where manga has never been MORE popular in the west, but along with that, shonen is being pushed harder than ever before, I see a lot of them lose interest because the "most popular series" don't speak to them. if I had known about demographics when I was younger, I wouldn't have had to rely on the fortune of stumbling upon these stories that spoke to me so much, and I find it ironic that despite increased popularity, it is now much harder to accidentally pick up a shoujosei in your local bookstore. the critics do have a point, in theory it WOULD be better if demographics weren't so heavily gendered, because there's nothing stopping any one gender of person from enjoying any one story. but in the world we live in now, the abolition of demographics would only hurt stories written by and for women. it's already hard enough to find shoujo that we KNOW is shoujo. I wish that women getting into anime and manga for the first time could have a similar experience that I had decades ago where we had shoujo beat magazine and a flood of shoujo on the shelves, because I feel like a lot more of them would stick around

[@eggsscott]

I think it would be so much harder to find manga/ anime that you want to read/ watch without demographics. If everything was just shuffled into genres it would be so much harder to sort out certain things like which stories are more likely to include certain tropes and which parts of the story they’re likely to focus on. Yes, some manga are obviously going to subvert genre and demographic trends but I think that the general information still helps inform readers of what to expect and find the stories that they want to read.

[@mandisaw]

This. Genres and demographics are a big part of how the author, publisher, and reader (or viewer) communicate with each other. It's how they clue us into what the story is going to be like (probably) and how we clue them in to what we'd like to see or read (probably). I might still read shonen if they divided into more accurate niches (you still get that on the seinen side). Jump has a weird mixed-bag history of throwing together [raunchy] comedy, serious action, comedic action, historical dramas, and fantasy. Sometimes a title will be sectioned off into one of the secondary magazines, but generally you just don't quite know what you're gonna get from an issue of Jump like you do with say Hana to Yume or Kiss.

[@theparadoxicaltouristtrave9320]

There could be more specific search terms. But there aren't. So...

[@伏見猿比古-k8c]

But that's what I usually do, just go for the genres I like. It hasn't been an issue so far and I've been doing it this way for over a decade.

[@eli4644]

@@伏見猿比古-k8c for certain genres that is definitely true (like for mytsery or adventure) but especially when it comes to romance, slice of life or drama there is an overwhelming gap of enjoyment for me between seinen/shonen and josei/shoujo. I usually know to expect a harem, fan service or sexualization of girls and women when I see the label shonen romance (obviously not all but enough). So, I avoid that category generally

[@princessjellyfish98]

its a shame that people are so uneducated on demographics because I actually think it's interesting to see instances where shoujo and josei mangaka write shonen and seinen series and carry over some of their art style and storytelling practices. those asumiko nakamura books on your shelf are actually a great example of that! with her distinct art style carrying over from BL and GL into her seinen series tales of the kingdom, while still being constrained to a more linear paneling style. I also have a hot take which is that, even though I very much dislike this meme, its much easier to spot a series that was "born to shoujo, forced to shonen" if you actually READ shoujosei. like, I can see yana toboso's josei muke fingerprints all over black butler even though the writing in that series is classic shonen. but people aren't equipped to talk about the actual interesting similarities in the first place because they only read stuff from jump 😔

[@ColleensMangaRecs]

I find it interesting too!! A lot of my fave shoujo mangaka have done seinen in the recent years plus Aya Kanno is making that shonen now and it's always so interesting to see what they change

[@alexlovessamoyeds]

This also hits on another interesting nuance of the "honorary shojo" debate which is, artists will have their own styles/artistic choices, and their influences and where they developed their writing chops play into their future works, no matter what magazine that work is published in. An interesting anecdote about this is the mangaka of "Kaiju Girl Caramelize" stated in an afterword that she was struggling to write a "seinen-style" story, and her editor just told her to write it as she would a Shojo manga. And boom, you have a manga following shojo blueprints in a seinen magazine lol.

[@tiniestcyndaquil]

Sorry I'm late, but I have a thought about the "why do people want to claim the word shoujo for certain series" thing. I think it may partially come from a desire for recognition and respect from the so-called general audience. "You don't care about shoujo? Well, that currently airing series you love has a few things in common with popular shoujo series, so it's basically a shoujo! And that classic world-famous manga's creator took inspiration from shoujo works!" I totally might be projecting, but I remember being anxious for an "in" when talking to shonen bros back in high school. I was insecure in my interests and (unconsciously) wanted men's approval, and I know I'm not alone in those regards. Patriarchy, whee.....

[@Fae-l2k]

What a wonderful video - thank you for putting my thoughts in regards to why Shojo is so unique, varied and deep into words! Shoujo just so deeply explores human emotions, has such beautiful drawings and stories - which is why I mainly read Shoujo and some Josei. I haven't touched a Shonen series in years since it often lacks depth (I've tried some, but they just don't hit), I'm reading some Seinen series - but only if I like the themes of the story.

[@aarondubourg3706]

Before watching, I think target demographics are important, especially for demographics who's stories don't get told normally or who don't get spoken too. And as for gender demographics. Bookstores still give books the "default" treatment or the "chick book" treatment even if there's no explicit gender demographic for the book (the "chick book" treatment is basically putting the book in the YA section instead of the Fantasy or SciFi or what other genre / demographic better fits). As long as there is systematic or social bias etc, targeted gender demographics are going to stay one way or another so why not just take the option that give the author more control in how their work is perceived (like sticking to shoujo magazines etc). And it's easier for fans too instead of having to guess "will this book be in x section or y section" etc.

[@Miaowzi]

I was one of the people who thought demographics doesn't matter but you convinced me otherwise

[@mangakat]

Demographics do matter

[@nguyenhoangnam8609]

The only small quibble I have is that while your criticism of the "honorary shojo" category is great (sorry for using that before😢), I do think the subject of gatekeeping could have been approached a bit better since "what count as X?" has been used to ostracize & marginalized & I do not think shojo's conception of womanhood is without its limitations. Nevertheless, excellent work as always!❤ (Seriously though you're among some of the most consistent creators in quality I've seen while maintaining regular upload schedule.😊)

[@alexlovessamoyeds]

I definitely think there can be some nuance in having Target AND periphery demographics/audiences, and a lot of times the “honorary Shojo” term might be more accurately explained as women being one of the periphery demographics. So still considered during the work’s creation, even if not the explicit target audience.

[@nguyenhoangnam8609]

@alexlovessamoyeds I do sympathize with this sentiment. There are a lot of "grey area" like this that I find interesting also. Nevertheless, the term itself do seem to presuppose problematic misappropriation & said "grey area" can still be explored without it I think

[@Kalabadrawa]

Im studing comic and narrative and my dream is to make comics very inspired on shojo manga. But the problem that it is that The comics I make that are more dedicated to a female audience, focused on romance and princesses (I warn you, many shojos dont focus on that) don't sell much in my country, so most likely I will publish my comics that are more inspired by shojo online. Since as I said, plots that are more focused on romance and princesses in a physical way don't sell much and are prejudiced topics and that is also due to sexism itself. That is my perspective and is a thing that i talk a lot with femenale friends who wants make comic and my comic teacher

[@rice_frying_shrimp]

as someone who is simply not represented in most demographics first and foremost on account of not fulfilling the "male or female (mandatory to fill out but only those two options)" criteria, I admittedly don't find myself looking at that label particularly much. I think age can make a difference purely in terms of how mature you prefer your stories to be but adults can and will read or watch things that are intended for younger audiences (looking away from animanga for a moment, you only have to look as far as Disney adults or older Bluey fans) and some kids, while not the intended audience, can and will watch things made with older, more mature audiences in mind. the only time I'd draw a line is in terms of violence and sexual content where there's some things kids just shouldn't be consuming. outside of that I can't exactly recall a time that I ever saw a demographic label and thought "oh but that's not for me" and stopped watching or reading it. I watched sitcoms as a toddler and refused to watch anything else well into kindergarten age despite not understanding any of the jokes, they were just comforting for me. I read mists of avalon in elementary school despite having to skip sentences when I didn't understand parts (not surprising given the book in question) while also reading the magic treehouse. when getting into anime I didn't differentiate between sailor moon and detective conan. I genuinely have just never cared about the labels. if something felt bad to read or watch, I'd stop, whatever the cause happened to be, but it sure wasn't ever societal expectations of what I should or shouldn't be watching. needless to say that when I was eventually introduced to the strict labels in manga publishing, I thought "well that's very silly but also very Japanese inherently, so I get why they do it like that" and then proceeded to literally not care if something was shonen, shoujo, josei or seinen. the lines between genres are so hard to enforce anyways and while some things are inherently easier to place on account of age, gender has never made sense to me (inherently as well, but especially as a label for media). oh well, I guess. only sucked when I lost out on a really cool job in manga publishing because the people hiring me felt that I "wasn't conclusive enough about the genres I wanted to work with" and so I gave them a confused look because I had outright told them that I liked slice of life the most, but apparently the examples I named had ranged too widely across the boundaries of shoujo, shonen, jousei and seinen, so they felt I couldn't possibly have meant that because everyone usually tied themselves down pretty neatly to only one of those, strongly implying that they thought I had made these up, had my responses AI generated or was otherwise faking my passion for the media. edit: forgot to mention the old 'tism. relevant to my general not understanding of gender as a whole and ties into why I tend to just write these things off and go for what I seem to like as opposed to what is marketed towards me or rather towards the marketer's perception of me.

[@elizabethnutley8841]

I mentioned "subjectivity" in my survey, and while subjectivity wasn't mentioned explicitly in the video, the "jazz music" and "shoujo as an art genre" sections lit some similar sparks. It's too easy to see shoujo (and to a lesser extent, josei) as a major force in in the publishing world when it's the majority of my own manga reading, but of course that isn't true. Sadly!

[@edamamame4U]

I really wonder how female manga-ka Rumiko Takahashi and Hiromu Arakawa were treated when they worked for shonen jump. I understand that Arakawa uses a pen name (some people state that this was to sound more masculine and appeal to a male readership) and values her privacy, but it makes me really curious if there were any extreme pressure places on her from editors despite writing one of the most successful shounen manga series. She touches briefly upon it in her autobiographical short manga segments, the Cowshed Diaries, but I would really love to know more about her experiences.

[@spectraltala6362]

Neither of them worked for Shonen Jump afaik, Takahashi mostly worked for Shonen Sunday (Shogakukan) and Arakawa mostly worked for Monthly Shonen Gangan (Square Enix). I do remember Arakawa saying she fought to introduce more female characters in FMA.

[@lusalma5404]

This makes me curious about how the competition from S. Korean Manwha espcially romance centered will change the market; if at all?

[@giogi1591]

The last minutes of this video deserve a STANDING OVATION! Thank you Colleen. I Have this battle almost everyday in my ig page, and is because people see manga = shonen.....Thank you for this video!

[@blackjackal8770]

Dear your hair?! Stunning!!! That was the first thing I noticed, sorry. But you're also always on point with your criticism and I feel validated whenever I watch your videos. All the success

[@xhielorei]

Personally i consider "honorary shoujo" those series that are made by a woman, not because a woman made them, but because you can feel the difference, the the way they touch some subjects are so different and more interesting to me. Its the female perspective. I dont know if that makes sense. I recently been watching a lot of old dudes reacting to traditional girly movies (mean girls, the devil wears Prada, the hunger games, Twilight, legally blonde) and most if not all of them loved them and are kinda mad they didnt watch them when they were young, cuz they would have loved it back then, but toxic masculinity got in the way of good stories. I think there is hope for woman made media primarily targeted to women, as long they executives give them a chance and ignore the loud minority.

[@Junosensei]

I sometimes like to make a comment before and after watching the video to compare my thoughts to the video before the video colors my thoughts. So, I got through the intro and paused, and here are my initial thoughts: Book stores in Japan separate sections of manga by demographic and/or magazine, so Joshi-muke ("For Girls") includes BL, Shoujo, Josei, etc. while Danshi-muke ("For Guys") includes Seinen, Shounen, Ecchi, etc., and categories like "Adult", "Classics", "GL/Yuri", etc. are all separate (Yuri is sometimes tossed in the Danshi-muke section, but is now often found off to the side between both joshi and danshi sections, probably because it has become popular with both younger and older women). I feel like this separation and categorization happens both BECAUSE of stereotypes, and also contributes to them, so my thoughts on whether they _should_ exist is... complicated. On the one hand, they are a product of toxic social norms in Japan, which like to separate men and women at all levels of society, making any typical issues with communication and understanding between the genders even worse than they already are in other countries. As such, it's so hard to find guys that act like actual guys in shoujo, and girls that act like actual girls in shounen, with only some exceptions. This makes it harder for either gender to appreciate stuff made by authors of other genders. But also, because men are seen as the "default", danshi-muke series are read by seemingly everyone, while joshi-muke series are read by almost exclusively women. In my various Japanese friend groups over the years, I have convinced guys who read manga on the norm to read some of my favorite shoujo recs, and they've overall loved them and found them really enticing. Not to mention, Fruits Basket and Kimi ni Todoke were both once among the top "shoujo manga enjoyed by men" in Japan. You can also find a sizable male audience in [het] joshi-muke ero-manga circles online, and it's no mistake to say that a lot of more recent dansho-muke romance series have taken on a lot of shoujo-esc tropes. I believe men who refuse to read joshi-muke manga are simply insecure, and the demographic label is getting in the way of them trying the genre out for themselves and finding that they like it. Thus... I'm not a huge fan of the demographic labels, personally. But that said, it would be naive to call these demographic labels "useless", and simply getting rid of them won't solve all the rest of the issues that led to their proliferation. Heck, I use them when looking for manga simply because I find female authors to make more appealing stuff to _me._ Again, it all is complicated and pretty tug-o-war with society. I really want to see these demographic labels go the way of the casette tape, but also, I don't know if such a change would best be served at once or gradually over time at a pace that is more natural to societal change in general. If I have anything to add afterward, I'll do so after I finish the video.

[@themythosarchives7520]

My thoughts on demographics are no doubt filtered through my experience as an AMAB bi-gender person. Yes demographic technically isn’t the same as genre, but they have a similar use, letting the reader or viewer know what they are getting into. But personally I wish more people would read across the aisle. Shonen, seinan, shoujo, josei, I’ve found something of value in all of them. Admittedly my gender identity is part of the reason why I was open to it, but people are too obsessed with fitting into boxes in my eyes.

[@alexlovessamoyeds]

I think it's also notable that most women have at least somewhat "read across the aisle", especially when first starting out in manga/anime specifically. The stuff that's listed on "top 10 anime" lists online or on streaming services is always dominated by shonen/seinen anime/manga, with occasionally 1-2 shojo sprinkled in (usually just sailor moon). The anime that were aired on TV with english dubs were all shonen anime and just sailor moon as the only shojo. For the modern age, any fan that's just starting out with watching anime on a streaming services will be far more exposed to shonen/seinen anime (and consequently the manga they were adapted from). I don't use demographic labels to choose what I read/watch, but it does stand out to me that I'll frequently encounter male anime fans who are outright unwilling to check out anything they deem "girly" whereas female anime fans will have at least checked out the mainstream shonen/seinen stuff (at least when they were first starting out with anime/manga).

[@CantusTropus]

I have to admit that I don't really understand why people are getting heated over this issue. Demographics pretty obviously exist, even if they're not homogeneous. Sure, men and women can like any kind of story, and maybe we'd do better if we were more willing to look at stories/genres/demos that we ordinarily wouldn't. But at the same time, it'd be foolish to ignore the fact that trends clearly exist. Girls are, as a general rule, a lot more interested in romance than guys are. Guys are, as a general rule, more interested in competition, action, etc. Both tend to have different outlooks on life, friendship, and a bunch of other things. These things are so universal that I struggle to believe that it can all be the result of cultural indoctrination, at least some of it has to be natural. I don't think there's anything wrong with making stories that specifically speak to (heck, even pander to) those groups. But there certainly is a degree of bias there in that Shoujo and Josei manga are generally regarded as for "women only", while the reverse is not true. Nobody is going to shame a girl for reading Shonen manga, but very few guys would be willing to openly admit that they read Shoujo manga.

[@mandisaw]

It's not universal, that's the point 😅People have different tastes and motivations, but they're pretty evenly sprinkled through men and women alike. In as much as particular interests are encouraged by your culture in one or the other, those will become "naturally" gendered. If a dude is feeling shame at "openly admitting" they read shojo manga, that's due to ideas they absorbed & internalized, same as a girl thinking they're weird for wanting to fix cars instead of hair. It's called cultural indoctrination because it's so all-pervasive you don't even notice that it wasn't your own thought to begin with. And it totally changes over time - when I was a kid in the 80s [US], action team-up shows & video games were equally made for boys & girls. They didn't start calling those "for boys only" until the late-90s to early-00s. Most of the romance anime that hit it big are labeled shonen / seinen, with larger male than female readerships to match (like Ranma).That was only 25-35yrs ago - a single generation, at most.

[@CantusTropus]

​@mandisaw Perhaps "universal" wasn't the right word, but clear differences (and not just physical differences) between men and women are observed in every culture, place, and time, and are extremely common and widespread. Plus, while I don't uncritically support every part of traditional roles, I don't believe that it could all be artificial. That would require some Ur-Patriarchy that imposed it on everyone in the distant past, which is a historically dubious idea.

[@mandisaw]

@@CantusTropus Same way every culture comes up with its own creation & death myths that can have similarities, they can also come up with similar reasons to divide or sort their members by class, ethnic group, or gender. People are not predisposed to gender roles, just like kings aren't predisposed to rule. "Culture" is a human invention, used to address human concerns - how should people interact, dress, speak, who must obey and who must be obeyed, etc. Everyone grows up within overlapping cultures - your family's own, all the way to the nation & era in which you live. "Who am I?" is a mix of those influences - very hard to parse out what is your "pure self", and it may be impossible to do so at any sort of objective level. How you and I are even having this convo is influenced by our respective upbringing, but also by "internet culture" - something that didn't even exist 40yrs ago 😅 This is the sort of stuff ppl study in fields like Cultural Studies, Gender Studies, and Media Studies [my field!]. If you're curious, there are a lot of books amd video essays that dig into it. PBS Crash Course has some great 10min intros here on KZbin.

[@CantusTropus]

@@mandisaw See, I have an issue with this. I don't go in for the entirely social-constructivist view of these things, I'm kind of a half-and-half. For instance, the expectation for men to be good at violence, acting as protector and provider, is not coming out of nowhere. It comes from the fact that men are innately endowed by Nature with superior muscle density, bone density, and upper body strength. Heck, I don't really fit these expectations well, but even I have to admit they exist for some reason. I recall seeing a video about a French journalist who went to contact an uncontacted indigenous group in the Pacific during the 70s, and he caught sight of a group of them across a river from him. The women and children instinctively fell back while the men moved in front to shield them in case the stranger turned out to be dangerous (in their case they probably feared he was some kind of ghost or monster, notably they started laughing and became much less tense after he fell off the stump he was sitting on and fell on his backside!). TLDR: Yes, to some degree cultural expectations are imposed on people - but it doesn't make sense to think that some bunch of guys just sat down in a room one day and decided to fabricate an entire structure of oppression to force onto people. At least some of those have to reflect things that people already believed, that came about without anyone imposing them on others. It can't just come out of nowhere, or we'd have memories and tales of a time before it existed.

[@mandisaw]

@@CantusTropus Everybody came up with the wheel & fire, right? Nobody sat down and taught each cluster of early humans how to build shelter out of local plants, materials, & animal hides, either. It's a form of parallel evolution - similar problems lead to similar solutions. In humans, males tend to be "beefier", so "men out in front with spears" was a very common solution to physical threats of violence. But that doesn't mean men are biologically predisposed to *be* violent by personality or mental state. And violence isn't always the solution cultures come up with - some groups instead learned to hide their presence, or build elaborate kinship & hospitality rules of conduct, or create hierarchies where disputes have to go to higher authorities, etc. All such that violence at direct physical levels becomes rare. If your boss shortchanges your paycheck, you call the gov't or sue in court - you don't grab a spear or duke it out 😅 Societies build culture to meet their needs & values - that might be informed by biology, climate, etc but it's still shaped intentionally, like any mundane tool or invention. [BTW what you're describing is called bioessentialism. Besides being used to justify "traditional" gender roles, it's also been used to explain why people "had" to be colonized, why nobles are "inherently" better and should be rich & powerful, and to justify ethnic cleansing & war crimes. More often than not, if you've heard the idea, it's not coming from a good source - even scientists can have deep cultural assumptions.]

[@princessjellyfish98]

first of all, public transporation statistics pog. second of all, as a she/her who exclusively dresses as a little lad, I relate HEAVILY to the issues with styling. I feel like I have to buy every shirt three sizes up just to be comfortable leaving the house 😭

[@alexlovessamoyeds]

Princess Jellyfish rules!

[@MechaDragonX]

As a cis straight man that's seemingly run out of shonen/seinen romance anime and have been reading some shojo/josei stuff, this was quite interesting. I need to read more lol! This stuff aside, some of my favorite manga are Bloom Into You and O Maidens in Your Savage Season which since they're so focused on womens' problems, made it seems extremely weird they are shonen. Obviously this doesn't answer that question but it does give some food for thought. I should finish reading the manga volume from Be Love magazine I started...

[@PredictableEnigma]

*grabs popcorn* I'm here

[@walter4191]

5:08 idk who in the marketing department thought it was okay to use that cover for Icebreaker but it is downright diabolical. It has very intense sex scenes and they used a young adult-like cover for it. insane behavior

[@SariaSchala]

When you talked (once again) about the sort of stories that are in shoujo, it made me realize that the shounens and seinens that are among my favorite anime (because all my fave manga so far are shoujosei) have similar sorts of storytelling (not that I'm calling them shoujo, just making an observation). Particularly ARIA, which is my all-time favorite shounen and has so much about emotions and relationships. This video in general is SO important and I will be referencing it whenever demographic debates come into my conversations.

[@lemon299]

fun fact: aria started off as a manga named aqua. aqua was published in a (long since defunct) shoujo magazine, stencil.

[@NafisaAhmed-1105]

Do you think we could have seen many new sides of shoujo that are rarely explored if male editors hadn’t pressured artists into creating what they believe girls like?

[@alexlovessamoyeds]

Absolutely! A manga series with a notably female editor is "Requiem of the Rose King" which features a nonbinary protagonist in a bloody political conflict over the British throne (based off of Shakespeare's King Richard plays), and this was published in Princess magazine (in case you're curious). Additionally, the GL magazine "comic yuri hime" is one of the few magazines with a female editor-in-chief, and you'll notice that a lot of the titles that come out of this magazine do a great job of targeting both female and male audiences.

[@NafisaAhmed-1105]

@alexlovessamoyeds thank you for the information. I'll make sure to check these out.

[@danamytereads5304]

You dropped this Colleen 👑

[@lwlnek0g_]

you should have put a green screen with the ace attorney courtroom behind and a phoenix wig, but overall i loved this video!!!!!!!👅

[@lotorsempire90]

It's all good and I think it's dumb people even argue about this. Then again all I read is yaoi so idgaf. It's strange shoujo is looked down upon seems pretty damn popular over here.

[@hanahashi]

First of all, thanks for this video. There was a time when I thought that demographics were stupid. But from the moment I understood that this exists because of the power structure that exists in society, things became clearer. Even if demographics disappeared tomorrow, semiotics itself would do the job of dividing what is good shit and what is bad shit, which award-winning work deserves an adaptation by a renowned studio and which deserves an adaptation with a very low budget. There is no way to have equality in unequal things; the rope always breaks on the weaker side. While social structures and the Market allow and endorse this universal truth, demographics need to exist both to keep this machine of infinite hunger turning on and for The Others to have a chance to use this machine against itself. It is a double-edged sword. And who knows, maybe one day when the concept of gender itself becomes obsolete, demographics may become extinct because we will be in an equal society with equal power parities.

[@BlackRose108]

This whole conversation about demographics is so important, especially from the creator's point of view. While I understand its function and usefulness, It's also incredibly frustrating that stories have to fit into specific categories and audiences. And any deviation from that kind of kills the marketability of your story. And unfortunately there are different rules here in the west as to which genres are even visible. I've been drawing a webcomic, "My New Friend is a Cat", for many years now and I've always struggled with how to market it. The main characters are boys, but they're young so it doesn't have the "hot guy" appeal. It's also a character-driven drama with an emphasis on understanding and talking about emotions, so the young boys who are the age of the main characters probably won't read it (or at least admit that they read it). It's basically shoujo with main male leads. Which I still feel isn't a prominent genre for western readers. Do I just market it to girls because it's emotionally-driven? Do I try to market it to boys because the main characters are boys, but get limited results? Do I try to market it to everyone? But what would that even look like? The struggle is real.

[@almostcheesecake]

I always appreciate hearing your perspective on demographics and sexism/lgbtphobia in the entertainment industry

[@ligeialovelace]

Re: Jennifer's body - I had the opposite reaction to the trailer back in the day, I loved it 😅 But I was already a Megan Fox fan. (There's also a whole discussion about sapphic attraction, and how it can be impacted by the male gaze in media when people are young and impressionable...i.e. me)

[@AyAReI00]

Hahahahahaha same, i love her and watch the movie for her and only her, i was SO Young to know that i like pretty girls cuz i'm bi 😂😂😂 but i agree, women who are full hetero would have no SEE any charm on that trailer who pretty much sold Fox as a sex object, i loved the movie since was SO different of what they sold, yet My male Friends call it stupid .... Yeah cuz she kill men 😂😂😂😂

[@rice_frying_shrimp]

also wanted to say I just noticed the Arai Sumiko shikishi behind you and I am SO JEALOUS because the releases here didn't come with any of the goodies that other markets got and I can't find one of these on the internet to save my life. would have really completed my green yuri merch collection but I will just have to practice restraint instead of overspending on a mercari or ebay listing

[@keiririn]

easily one of your best videos to date, i can really tell how much effort was put into this video, and i loved how you connected the argument with other forms of media like jennifer’s body and the jazz genre debate. i feel like when anyone engages in feminine media, there’s no way not to also engage in a feminist context, and so then some people will get weird and agitated because they’re forced to confront their biases. same goes for engaging in any media made for any marginalized voice, they have to confront the systems of inequality that creates this marginalization and their biases. and so any media that gives a voice to these groups are always going to be important, and being able to find them through something like a demographic label is so important for accessibility, especially with today’s political climate like you mentioned. keep up the great work! i’m sure making these bigger videos could attract the wrong crowd, but i really appreciate how you continue to speak about the greater context of misogyny that impacts this industry

[@ColleensMangaRecs]

Yes! Like you said, while I focus on shoujo and josei manga/anime, my arguments are the same for any diverse media whether it be more respect for GL and BL or more black protagonists in media.

[@frost_fire21]

You really hit the mark here...and the truth is that I have been subconsciously viewing Shounen as the default for a long time... But in recent years I feel like there's been a shift in the themes, premises and presentation of shounen animanga... Like I used to be able to enjoy a lot of anime coming from Shounen Jump because while they absolutely were target towards a male audience, they still seemed palatable. These days I feel as if things have been going backwards again and the treatment of female characters has gotten worse and the premises of said animanga has gotten more sexualised and crude....So find myself consuming more shoujo these days when it used to be 50/50.

[@banoko]

if demographics, culture and publishing way of manga doesn't matter than why there is a need to differentiate japanese, korean, chinese and western comics?

[@sugarzblossom8168]

Why do shoujo mangaka go to seinen instead of josei? Is josei more restricive than seinen or just as restrictive as shoujo?

[@ColleensMangaRecs]

My guess is they either a) want to just try out something entirely new after doing shoujo for most of their careers or b) the fact that shoujo and josei aren't that differentiated in Japan so yes it would be about the same level of restriction probably

[@sugarzblossom8168]

@ColleensMangaRecs Thank you for the answer

[@alexlovessamoyeds]

It's also because Shojo/Shonen/Seinen are far more mainstream and all reach a much wider audience than Josei, along with the fact that Josei isn't always recognized as distinct from Shojo in Japan.

[@sugarzblossom8168]

@alexlovessamoyeds thanks

[@IoWhite]

Speaking of critics of the time who got Jennifer's Body wrong, at least Roger Ebert, who was plenty horny himself, liked Jennifer's Body enough to give it a good score and recommendation, though he didn't get what the movie was going for and judged it more like a good thriller.

[@ColleensMangaRecs]

Yeah from the articles I read and in the Yhara Zayd video I mention, they all talked about how Ebert liked it so good on him lmao

[@MangaDungeon]

im just commenting to show support ngl 1) Im happy this didnt turn into a language thing that can be dismissed with "prescriptive vs descriptive" because most online discussions tend to boil down to.... that mostly 2) HI know this is sorta... the whole point of the channel and you do this sorta thing better than most (not to put most including me down) I appreciate you totally dodged the "prescriptive vs Descriptive" debate these kinda discussions seem to bring yet no one has the vocabulary to say and just cut the bullshit and said.... HEY HEY HEY.... this shit is mad sexist!

[@tox_anituber]

Some anime fit perfectly into their category, while others blur the lines. There Josei Anime That Feel Like Shojo or Seinen Anime That Feel Like Shonen or Shojo Anime That Feel Like Seinen/Josei etc.. All I can say is that we fans enjoy stories beyond these labels the publishers but on them.

[@LuckyLiars]

This video was so important and very informative for even a shoujo defender like myself but, the audio is killing me 😭. Video of the century killed by its audio 😫

[@ColleensMangaRecs]

I had no issue with it while listening on my speakers but you're the 3rd person to say this now... Not sure what happened

[@johnwise9811]

​@ColleensMangaRecs I didn't notice anything wrong with the audio until the very end. Your last few sentences you said had a noticeable dip in audio quality. The audio for the rest of the video seemed fine to me.

[@ari.arietty]

I had to put my volume on max to watch the video, aside from that, the video was great!

[@DuyNguyen-ks8dc]

great video with great perspectives and insights. Thank you! For bringing this issue out. I myself do hope the world would change. :)

[@ryannthegawd]

i’m glad you mentioned the issue with androgyny. i’m creating a character who’s style is androgynous and when looking for outfit inspo, everything was just a masculine outfit on a feminine body. where’s the feminine touches in androgynous fashion?

[@Elora445]

Some sexists always tend to claim that Inuyasha is a shoujo, since a girl is the main character. I just love pointing out that no matter what they think, Inuyasha was published in a shounen magazine (Shounen Jump, I think), which makes it a shounen manga. End of story. But oh, horror, girls also liked that series. So people like that always think that means that it must be a shoujo, no matter what the facts say. Sigh.

[@T-mack56]

Inuyasha published in Weekly Shounen Sunday. The same magazine that published Fairy Tail and some of Rumiko's other works like Ranma 1/2 & her most recent series Mao.

[@titoleon3101]

All of Takahashis works are shounen/seinen, but she was a pioneer at including female protagonists and heavy romance plots in that demographic so it has always confused some people.

[@Elora445]

@@T-mack56 Thank you for correcting me.

[@theoctopus7191]

16:04 not really related to the video topic, but I’ve been exploring gender neutrality lately and it’s partially inspired by your presentation, so I’m taking Little Lad core for myself thank u

[@ricetanooki8655]

I had the same discussion with a friend (male). He didn't consider series like Blue Box a shonen, because he relates shonen with action. But he still thought that a series like Bakuman is a shonen, even when it's not hard action. So there's a lot of marketinf sheenanigans in there. Like, demographics are part of marketing, like you said. My friend and I agreed with the fact that sometimes genres don't matter and some series are just good and should be watch by everyone. And that's true, but I don't imagine him reading Nana or Paradise Kiss, for example, even if both of those series are great and have a huge cultural impact. I'm a male too, but I feel that not being entirely cis and bisexual influenced my taste when it comes to reading manga. I also grew up during a time in which shojos were really popular in tv, so there's that.

[@banoko]

I read "nononono" manga, protoganist was a high schooler crossdressing girl doing ski jump. I wondered how that was a seinen manga with a synapsis like that. After some volumes it really is obvious it is written by a man, and aimed at old creepy het man. He even acknowledges this in volume 9 afterword, apparently people reacted poorly to volume 9 and you should probably just skip that or stop reading at that volume.

[@banoko]

if you want crossdressing girl manga read hana kimi btw

[@AyAReI00]

I Google what happen andnit was r4ped , or attempt r4pe.... I Even suspect it Even before Google it cuz men always do that, is dissapointing, they think is a great plot point either for make a male characters sabe the girl or punish a man.... Sigh , is SO tiring, only a few male writers don't exploit sexual abuse for their female cast for views of something

[@pheonixrises11]

I have a feeling you’re talking about the point at which I dropped the manga, haha… I’m obsessed with manga about women crossdressing as men, and that one was a huge letdown. Definitely prefer shojo manga about crossdressing. Luckily, I heard the manga’s ending doesn’t really feel complete anyways.

[@lizzychurro7701]

I got into an argument with a man under another creator’s video. Their video was about unpopular animanga opinions. I had left my comment saying I was currently reading Berserk, and yes of course the art is amazing, but I was not enjoying the plot or thinking it was the best thing to grace this planet like everyone else. A man commented in response, immediately insulting my intelligence, saying I didn’t “get it”, and that I’m a disgusting stupid Naruto fan. He had a Dragonball profile picture by the way. I am still continuing my journey to read Berserk, and forming my own opinion. At that time I had read ~15 volumes, and now I am at ~25

[@retroanimemike]

Humans are an old species. Our society has existed for millennia. All this modernity with ideas like gender equality, democracy, human rights, individual freedoms is an ephemeral novelty compared to the cosmic depths of time in which we evolved and which we recall so little of, but is the universal foundation beneath us. These novel ideas do not adequately represent who we are - an average taken over any timeframe long enough to be significant shows us to be apes with stone tools - BUT they do represent who we wish to be. We need to make these decisions again and again, day after day. Maybe if you are loud enough, over a lifetime society will notice. I wonder, can demographics be discovered in cave drawings? Also i remember way back when, there was a talk at a con, a feminist deconstruction of robot women in Japanese media, and the crowd was not having it, people were leaving and the woman holding the event got very upset, so that avenue for discussion was abandoned at future iterations of the con. You can't run before you walk, and are we even going in the same direction? Sorry for rambling, love your videos!

[@mandisaw]

Not in cave drawings, but archaeologists do get some understanding of gender roles from tombs and burial sites. Most cultures' death rites reflect major aspects of what they believe in, and how people lived, so as you find more sites with various characteristics, it can inform a picture of the broader society.

[@icanbwatevai1ab]

Is that a copy of The Guy She Was Interested In Wasn't a Guy at All, Vol. 1 next to your head, Colleen?

[@ColleensMangaRecs]

It's the shikishi board that came with the special edition that Kinokuniya was selling!

[@icanbwatevai1ab]

@@ColleensMangaRecs Oh hiiii, thanks for replying. I read the manga, it was soooo good! Cannot wait for vol 2!

[@kevinjtthomas]

Great video, learned a lot !

[@kyoneko87]

I didn't realize that was why Arata was put on hiatus! And I love Arata! I do find Shojosei have deeper stories, and I actually feel they are superior Shounein, sometimes. It's a shame that not a lot of Shojosei are adapted to anime, though the majority of ones that are more geared towards romance. And unfortunately, I am talking about comphet romance which generally typical gender roles. And I HATE that, as someone who is both queer and does not conform to gender roles. It's why i prefer more queer stories like Utena, Bishoujo Senshi Moon, Cardcaptor Sakura, that CLAMP work with an Angel in it, Requiem of the Rose King, Girlfriends, Princess Princess. I also like stories with a soft male lead like Natsume Yuujincho. And i like works that buck gender norms like Red River/Anatolia Story and Akatsuki no Yona, and my Love Story. And then their is this hybrid of scifi, historical, fantasy, horror, psychological, and what I consider to be somewhat queer, called Amano no Tsuki or Amatsuki for short. I also do love Fruits Basket do to its themes of generational trauma and the cycles of abuse. But there is so much out there, which I wish would get adaptations. I do wish there wasn't a default type of person. And everyone could just be people! And it's sad that anybody outside the "default" cis white heterosexual male are considered afterthoughts or less than. I wish men or masc individuals were more willing to engage with shojosei as I am also willing to engage with shounein

[@nirgunawish]

how can i scrubscribe to Wings bimonthly magazine in the netherlands?

[@jacki8106]

Im yelling at you through my screen saying THANK YOU COLLEEN YOURE AMAZING ❤❤❤

[@jonesygaming2735]

The thumbnail is killing me lol

[@evgeniyaptichkina1882]

A brilliant video again. Thank you!

[@PocketLeaves]

not me automatically thinking about BL when you brought up shoujo series with male protagonists, and then being confused for a second on why that'd be more palatable. This was such a great informational video, and I always love to hear how you explain things and your own perspectives! You always end up bringing up something I either just didn't know before, or had never thought about!

[@moustik31]

Well, well, well, well, well! Would you look at that: the sexism portrayed for "fun" in shonen magazines/manga isnt an isolated incident but the visible part of a deeply violently misogynistic work environment?! Colour me shocked! /sarcasm Edit: Omg, shoujo is becoming gentrified! 🤯

[@AyAReI00]

About jennifer body, well, the dude involved in marketing like megan fox so much that he actually wanted to take photos of her more sexy, he was the one who destroyed the movie... When the women involved in the movie try ti fught back the were faced with sexism ✨

[@AyAReI00]

9:41 hahahahahahahaha wrote the comment before notice You put the interview in the video 😂😂😂😂😂